Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Apr 1962

Vol. 194 No. 9

Street and House to House Collections Bill, 1962—Report and Final Stages.

Mr. N. Lemass

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 5, between lines 29 and 30 to add the following additional subsections to section 5:—

"(5) An annual permit may be granted to charitable or benevolent organisations permitting them to place collection boxes in public places by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána where he is satisfied that the organisation concerned collected money in this way for at least twenty years before this Act comes into force.

(6) The Commissioner of the Garda Síochána may grant a permit for a collection, other than a street collection or a house to house collection, to be taken up on a national basis during a certain fixed period not exceeding two weeks."

On Committee Stage, I referred to the dinner collections and subscriptions taken up by the Irish Commercial Travellers' Association. I have put down this amendment for the purpose of clarifying the position with the Minister. Over the years, the type of collection the Association take up has changed and it may not now come within the scope of the Bill. It is to clarify the situation that the amendment is tabled. Prior to 1866, the normal practice between commercial travellers in the event of somebody dying or being in dire need——

Minister for Justice (Mr. Haughey)

Were there commercial travellers at that time?

Mr. N. Lemass

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

I thought the Deputy said "1066 and all that".

Mr. N. Lemass

This Association was founded in 1866. The usual thing was that charitably-minded commercial travellers would take up collections from other commercial travellers who might have known the deceased person or the person who had become sick. It was felt at that time that some form of association should be founded and registered to ensure that funds would be available to help out in cases of great necessity. In 1866, there was in every hotel what was know as the "commercial table". It was in the diningroom, usually the best table in front of the fire, and was reserved exclusively for commercial travellers.

The precedent set in those days was that the senior or oldest commercial traveller sat at the head of the table. In those times, a bell was rung for meals and there was just one serving. After the meal, the senior commercial traveller would take up an aluminium plate and pass it around to all his colleagues at the table, and the usual subscription from each was a penny. These pennies were taken up by the senior traveller and were placed in a collection box of old-fashioned design, some of which are still in existence. Eventually, a member of the committee with a key would collect these pennies from the box and put them into a central fund.

This, in effect, is a private collection among commercial travellers. As a private collection, it is not interfered with, but this box for the pennies is usually in the diningroom or commercial room of every hotel. In other words, it is in a public place. It is a collection for money in a public place which, to my mind, might be caught by the definitions. Even though it is not intended to be a collection from the public as a whole, it is being taken up in a public place.

Mr. Mullen

Like waiters' tips.

Mr. N. Lemass

Nowadays the "commercial table" as such, has disappeared from nearly every hotel, although one or two still have them. The travellers now sit at their own separate tables. It is unusual to see a commercial traveller passing the plate around to the various commercial travellers to collect the pennies. The box is usually available and the travellers will put their money in it, if they feel so inclined. That is one subsection I am dealing with. As I say, it is intended to be a private collection from commercial travellers for commercial travellers and if so understood there is no need for the amendment at all.

The other matter which concerns me is that, in addition to what is termed the penny collection, there is a silver collection which is taken up twice a year at a specified time. As far as I know, the next one is due in the present month of April. In that instance, a paper setting out the aims and objects of the Association is given to the hotel and the management, the head waiter or a waitress, as the case may be, is asked to post this sheet in a public place or in the diningroom of the hotel. The commercial travellers are expected at that time to make a subscription and to write down their name and address. It is not an anonymous subscription but a personal subscription from the commercial travellers. This, again, could be termed a private collection from a private group of people even though it is being made in a public place. It is to have the Minister's intention made clear in this matter that I put down this amendment.

There was an amendment moved by the Minister on the Committee Stage, amendment No. 14, in which it was intended to cover the case where a collection permit is to be issued in respect of a collection by means of a box permanently fixed to the counters of shops, licensed premises, etc. In such cases it would be necessary for the permit to specify the type of place rather than the locality in which the collection was authorised to be held. The Minister has had in mind, as he explained, the ordinary charitable organisations who have their collection boxes in public houses, and so on. The collection I am discussing now may go outside the scope of this Bill altogether and, therefore, I should like to hear from the Minister what is the position.

Mr. Haughey

I indicated on the Committee Stage that where a box is placed in a public place such as a hotel diningroom obviously intended to receive subscriptions from members of the general public, the collection would come within the terms of the Bill. It is clear that a permit would have to be procured to authorise such a collection. It is also clear that under the amendment discussed on the Committee Stage the chief superintendent in granting a permit could grant it for a period of twelve months.

There could not, for practical reasons be, as envisaged in the amendment, a national permit granted to cover the whole country. We examined that aspect. Naturally there would be organisations—indeed, political organisations would be among them—for whom it would be convenient to be able to procure a national permit, but the practical difficulties in allowing that to be done are so great that we had to abandon the idea and confine permits to the chief superintendents' areas. Permission will have to be sought and procured on a local basis from the chief superintendent of the area. Deputy Lemass suggests in his amendment that the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána should have power to grant an annual permit "where he is satisfied that the organisation concerned collected money in this way for at least 20 years before this Act comes into force". I am afraid that concept is too unreal. Apart from the fact that the Commissioner is referred to and not the chief superintendent, the Guards would never be able to satisfy themselves that a collection was, in fact, taken up 20 years ago and since.

I do not see what difficulties Deputy Lemass envisages here for the Commercial Travellers' Association. It will be open to them to go to the chief superintendents in the various districts and apply for permits which each chief superintendent will be able to issue for a period of twelve months. I am not sure that it would not be possible for the association to make the type of collection in question in such a way as not to bring it within the scope of the Bill at all. I do not know whether they would be able to work out some arrangement whereby the box could be placed in the office of the hotel or some private part of the hotel which would not be normally frequented by members of the public and therefore by definition not within the scope of the Bill. That is an idea which it may or may not be possible to work out in practice.

Deputy Mullen asked about waiters' tips. There is no question but that waiters' tips would be excluded by the Definition Section. In defining "collection", there is excluded money which is collected in the ordinary course of trade or business. The procuring of tips by a waiter would not come within the terms of the Bill.

Mr. N. Lemass

I am not pressing the amendment. I am merely pointing out that this is a small voluntary organisation and this will place a lot of difficulties in their way. It is not like a political organisation. They have their members travelling about and have only one central branch committee. I wish to thank the Minister for the way in which he has considered the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill received for final consideration.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Next Stage?

Mr. Sweetman

I am prepared to agree that the Minister should take the next Stage now, provided he can give me a little information.

Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

Mr. Sweetman

I want to know what will happen to a time-honoured custom in my part of the country. It seems to me that the Minister is going to blot out entirely this custom, that that is highly undesirable and is a matter to which he must give serious consideration at a later stage. As far as I can see, after this Bill is passed there will not be such things any more as wren boys, who will be prohibited from carrying on as they have always done year after year.

Mr. Haughey

Would that be alms or begging?

Mr. Sweetman

No, I think not. I think they are collections and I am perturbed that there will not be any more wren boys around County Kildare. The Minister will have to take serious notice of this fact between now and the time he goes to the Seanad.

Mr. Haughey

I share the Deputy's concern for this time-honoured institution of wren boys or, as they are known less sophisticatedly in some parts of the country, "wran" boys. My immediate reaction is to assume that the Bill does not cover them. However, I shall give the point consideration between now and the time the Bill goes to the Seanad and see what can be done.

Mr. Mullen

Just for information, would the Minister indicate the effect of this Bill on carol singers?

Mr. Sweetman

They are a more respectable version of wren boys.

Mr. Haughey

I have just been assured by an authority on the subject of wren boys that wren boys do not, in fact, ask for money.

Mr. Sweetman

They would be very disappointed if they did not get it.

Mr. Mullen

What exactly would be the position in respect of carol singing? Would the Minister also indicate how this Bill would affect people on strike? It is a very familiar thing to find people who are on strike having collections made for them in public places. Does this Bill mean that such people will be forbidden the making of collections to supplement strike pay? I have in mind something that happened quite recently when, because of the institution of this legislation, the Guards must have decided to put a spurt on and the local Garda found it necessary to approach people who were collecting for people out on strike. I should like to find out what exactly the position will be then because never did we have to ask permission from the local superintendent in order to make a collection among our own folk.

Mr. Haughey

In fact, permits have been sought.

Mr. Mullen

Never did the trade unions have to make a request to the local superintendent to make a collection among their own members.

Mr. Haughey

And they will not have to do so in future.

Mr. Mullen

Where do we draw the line? Does it mean that if one meets three people, one says to them: "If you are a member, you can give me something; if you are not a member, you will be breaking the law"?

Mr. Haughey

In the past, trade unions have made public collections and have actually procured permits to make these collections. Any group collecting from the public will have to procure a permit. I do not envisage any difficulty arising in procuring such a permit. Where a trade union collects from its own members, such a collection would not come within the terms of this Bill at all. Reference was made to carol singers. These might conceivably be regarded as receiving alms so as, therefore, to be outside the law.

Mr. Mullen

Begging?

Mr. Haughey

Begging, yes.

Mr. Coughlan

Then they can be prosecuted for begging.

Mr. Haughey

I do not imagine carol singers come within the scope of the Bill, but, if they do, there would be no difficulty in obtaining a permit.

Mr. Mullen

In relation to trade union collections, am I to understand now from the Minister that if there is a trade dispute in the city and it is found necessary——

Mr. Haughey

There is more than one city in Ireland.

Mr. Mullen

That is so, but Dublin is the capital of Ireland. If it is found necessary to make a collection among trade unionists, am I to understand from the Minister that there is nothing in this legislation which will prevent a trade union sending its members up to stand outside a factory in which other members are employed in order to make a collection?

Mr. Haughey

That is a question of fact which would have to be determined in relation to the particular situation. The principle is that collecting from trade union members does not come within the terms of the Bill. We are concerned only with collections from the public.

Mr. Mullen

Let us assume all the members of the Dáil are members of a trade union and some of their colleagues are on strike down the road. Supposing some of the members want to collect from the members of the Dáil to assist those on strike and they stand outside the gate in order to do so, how would they stand under the law?

Mr. Timmons

I should like to ask the Minister to clarify a point in regard to house to house collections undertaken by certain responsible organisations. I have in mind organisations such as the Irish Red Cross Society. They carry out house to house collections. The personnel is very limited and in certain areas it would be impossible to carry out the collection within the prescribed time of a month, or a couple of weeks, or whatever it is. I should like an assurance that these collections will not be restricted or curtailed in any way. These collections are carried out by dedicated people who move from area to area.

Mr. N. Lemass

The point raised by Deputy Mullen shows the very thin line between the private and the public collection—the private collection in a public place or the public collection from private members. A difficulty which may arise is that one superintendent may be quite happy that the terms of the Bill do not apply to a certain collection, while another superintendent may have a very different interpretation. The Minister might look at it very carefully between now and the time it comes before the Seanad to see if there is a likelihood of difficulty arising. He should also bear in mind that the particular collection to which I am referring has been taken up consistently since 1866. It would be a pity to interfere with it now.

Mr. Sherwin

It is a regular thing, when people are being evicted, for neighbours to go around with a hat. That happens in thousands of instances every year. Will they be affected under this Bill?

Mr. Haughey

They must get a permit.

Mr. Sherwin

For a local collection like that? Certain political organisations collect anually. I am a oneman show. I do not collect, but, if an election is sprung on me to-morrow, I might want to go round for the duration of the election. Would I have to get a permit?

Mr. Haughey

Yes.

Mr. Sherwin

There would be no objection?

Mr. Haughey

Not the slightest.

Mr. Sweetman

That would apply only in certain circumstances. If the Deputy voted against the Government, he might not get a permit.

Mr. Haughey

It would depend on the circumstances that caused the election.

Mr. Sherwin

Is the Minister adhering to the age limit of 14?

Mr. Haughey

Yes.

Mr. Sherwin

Two days after the last discussion, out of 40 people collecting for the blind in O'Connell Street, 30 were boys of 12 and 13 years of age. Ask the Garda. There will be wholesale evasion if this limit of 14 is adhered to.

Mr. Sweetman

Where is the exemption in the Bill for people collecting from their own members?

Mr. Haughey

It is implicit in the definition section.

Mr. Sweetman

I have read it.

Mr. Haughey

A collection is defined as a collection of money from the public in any public place or places. A collection within an organisation would not be from the public.

Mr. Sweetman

Will it not create an impossible situation if, walking down O'Connell Street, one has to decide who is a member of an organisation and who is not?

Mr. Haughey

Anybody attempting to collect at large in O'Connell Street would be well advised to seek a permit.

Mr. Sweetman

Yes, but I think the method of dealing with the situation is the wrong one.

Mr. Sherwin

Would people not be begging if they went around with the hat for somebody who is being evicted?

Mr. Haughey

In my view, that would be a public collection within the terms of this Bill. They would be begging if they were collecting for themselves.

Mr. Sweetman

They could be collecting for their families.

Mr. Haughey

Deputy Timmons asked about organisations like the Red Cross Society. The chief superintendent has complete discretion in regard to the time he will allow. Originally, we had a limit of six months and it was put to us that that might be too short. He will now be able to allow any length of time he likes, up to 12 months, for a particular collection.

Mr. Sweetman

What about my "wran" boys?

Mr. Haughey

I am assured by an authority that "wran" boys do not, in fact, look for money.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister does not live in the country. That is perfectly clear.

A Deputy

You would not let them go away empty handed?

Mr. Sweetman

It would be in breach of the Act in future.

Mr. Sherwin

Are three card trick men in this?

Mr. Haughey

That is gaming.

Question put and agreed to.