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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 May 1962

Vol. 195 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 7—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance—(Minister for Finance.)

Last night, I was referring to the fact that in the past three years or so, there has been a very definite increase or expansion in the tax revenue available to the Minister for Finance. It is interesting to refer to the manner in which the moneys available to the Minister have been distributed over the past few years. In the financial year 1960-61, the tax revenue available to the Minister amounted to £115,000,000. Out of that, he expended on the less well-off sections of the community, on social welfare payments of one kind or another, a total of £26,000,000, or just 23 per cent. of the total sum.

The Minister now has a further £20,000,000 in tax revenue amounting to £132,000,000 or £133,000,000 and the expenditure on social welfare payments amounts to in or around the same sum but the percentage is down to something around 19 per cent. That means that this year with the moneys available to the Government, with an expansion in tax revenue, less of the total sum in proportion is being devoted to social welfare and to bettering the lot of the poor, the sick and the needy.

That illustrates very clearly the approach of the Government, of which we are critical. As I said last night, it has always been an expression of opinion by Ministers for Finance that as soon as the revenue will permit and within the limits of the increase in revenue available to them, they would first try to rectify and improve the lot of the less well-off sections. It is clear that this time it has not been done. To-day, compared with three years ago, we are spending a smaller proportion of the money available to the Government on the poorer sections of the community. It is in the light of that idea behind the Budget that we on this side of the House have had regard to what the Minister has done.

As I said last night, he had the claims of the poor; he had the hands of the poor held out for some relief, some measure of socal justice; he also had the demands of the farmers who were able to organise and march. He also had the demands and claims of the dancehall proprietors and the cinema owners throughout the country. In what way has he decided to dispense the extra £20,000,000 available to him? Of course we know what he has done. He decided to give half-a-crown to the old age pensioners.

Half-a-crown is an interesting figure. A month ago, I was led to believe, by strong-voiced Deputies, that they would never support the Government, unless the increase in the old age pension was 5/-. But it is half-a-crown now, take it or leave it, and it is half-a-crown that will be paid not now but next August, because, by deferring it to next August, the Government and the Minister for Finance will save £450,000 or £500,000. That is the relief—half-a crown to the old age pensioners. The unfortunate man who has to face an increase in the cost of fuel, of rent, of food, of clothing—if he has enough money to buy a new pair of trousers or a second-hand pair of trousers, or a coat—is to get 2/6d. but it is deferred until next August. That is the only provision of any significance in this Budget in relation to increased social welfare payments.

Of course, the farmer is to get an increase in rate allowance totalling £2,500,000, and I am sure it will be very welcome, but it is significant that the benefit is not to be widely distributed. It is not to be enjoyed by the small farmers in the midlands, or the west, or any other part of the country. The benefit of this expenditure of £2,500,000, or something like three times the amount being expended this year on increases in old age pensions, is to go to the well-off farmer in any county or rural community and that is to take place straight away.

The third measure of relief is the abolition of entertainments duty. It is interesting that if the Minister had decided not to give this relief in respect of entertainments duty, he could have paid the 2/6d. to the old age pensioners from the first day of this financial year. But no—in order to provide cheap ballroom dancing for the people of Dublin city, the old age pensioner cannot be paid his 2/6d. until next August.

Is it surprising then that we talk about this Budget as being a Budget which has cloudy and faulty thinking behind it, a Budget which is obviously the result of the stresses and strains on a Government composed as the present Government is? They are pulling in a variety of directions and they are anxious to placate, even temporarily, as many influential people as they possibly can. The old age pensioner is not influential and the sick and needy and poor are not organised. Half a crown promised might fob them off. But the farmers may be organised; we know the dancehall owners to be organised, and in the case of groups like that, who are in a position to exercise influence on the Government and on the Minister, they are met, not by declaring a moratorium, but by payment in full and on the nail.

Therefore, this Budget is introduced. The available money to the Minister is being dispensed in directions which may be perfectly justified. There may be sound cases to be made for these reliefs, but certainly they do not represent the most urgent reliefs, so far as the community are concerned. It might have been a better investment in the future if the Minister had done this—and certainly social justice would demand he should do it in a year in which there is a surplus in tax revenue compared with other years. He might have increased the level of home assistance throughout the country to those barely surviving on the margin between nutrition and starvation. If he had made more available for those purposes, if he had invested a little more in improving our health services, if he had devoted a little more to raising the standard of our education, if he had done things of that kind—not a lot because the money available to him would not permit a great deal—certainly it might have been a step in the right direction. But all that has been forfeited in the interest of expediency and in order to get, not a better country in the next 12 months, but to get this Government over the vote they had to face three or four weeks ago. That is the object of the Budget we are debating this evening.

In relation to the debate, we have had the Taoiseach coming in making, not a very convincing speech on behalf of his Government's Budget, but rather saying: "Well, it is not too bad a Budget, but remember there may be temporary difficulties at the moment and things are going to be much better next year. Wait until the Budget next year." But when we compare his speech with the speech of the Minister for Transport and Power when he was talking about the great things Fianna Fáil did in the past, about all the social welfare benefits they conferred on the people, one cannot help feeling that it is very much a case of jam yesterday and jam tomorrow, but they are not going to have any jam today.

I was interested in some of the speeches from the more junior members of the Government or associated with the Government, particularly the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands, who spoke yesterday. In defence of this Budget, he proceeded to emphasise how wonderful everything now was in the country. I thought he was going to use the phrase made famous by reason of its present illfame, which was coined some years ago by the present Prime Minister of Great Britain when he told the people, "You have never had it so good." Certainly if the Parliamentary Secretary's speech was to be given an adjective, that would be the adjective in the way of a phrase that could be ascribed to it. The people apparently are to be told that, whether they know it or not, they have never had it so good as they now have it under Fianna Fáil.

I wonder is that bromide going to quieten the shattered nerves of some of Deputy Sherwin's constituents? Do they feel their lot is much improved or made very much easier because dancing is to be cheaper or because the owners of the local cinema are to make a little more money or because the large farmers of Cork or elsewhere will have a remission on their rates? These people may never have had it so good, but I would be concerned to know whether the unfortunate people who queue up at the dispensaries in Deputy Sherwin's constituency and who live in the tenements around the place, trying to balance a few shillings or a few six-pences to buy a Fianna Fáil loaf of bread or a half pound of margarine, are the people the Parliamentary Secretary or any other member of the Government is addressing when he tries to convince them that things have never been so good in this country?

I should like to recommend to the Government that it is a worthwhile thing, even if they are long on the road and stale in their tracks, to keep an ear to the ground and to realise that the ordinary people at present are far from satisfied with the manner in which the country is being governed. This Budget contains nothing. It is an improvisation to tide the Government over their political difficulties. It is a Budget brought in to buy time. Time for what? Do the Government think that, politically, things will be better for them next year? Is that the reason the Taoiseach says in his speech: "Next year's Budget will be better"?

We are not going to wait. When I say "we", I mean the ordinary people in the country. We are not going to be fobbed off by promises to be paid on Tibb's Eve. The people will remember that the Government were elected and sent into office five years ago on certain specific promises —promises not to be carried out sometime, somehow by some contrivance— but to provide 100,000 new jobs for the people. These jobs were to be provided at the rate of 20,000 a year. That was five years ago. If that promise had been carried out, today in this country, there should be close on 1,000,000 people in insurable employment. We know it has not been carried out. We know now that the best that can be promised is that things may be better, perhaps not this year, but maybe next year.

The facts are that at the time that promise was made five years ago, when Fianna Fáil were eager for office and concerned to get there, no matter what the cost might be in blighted hopes for the ordinary people, the time they made a promise of 100,000 new jobs, there were in insurable employment close on 800,000 people. Today, five years later, instead of the figure for those in insurable employment approaching the million mark, there are 62,000 fewer people working in this country. That is not bad for five years. The only trouble is that instead of going forward we are going backwards. The story would be complete if instead of 62,000, we had 100,000 fewer working today than five years ago, but the fact is 62,000 fewer people are employed than when this promise was first made.

It is not necessary to discuss emigration. When you discuss emigration in this House it is like the old patient going to the doctor and discussing his old complaint. Everybody is bored with it. We are bored with it because it is a chronic complaint. Over the last five years, we have lost a quarter of a million people. That has happened during that wonderful period we were to have when Fianna Fáil were elected to office in 1957.

There was no emigration during the Coalition time!

A quarter of a million people, enough to represent the entire county of Cavan. This is the Party which put up one of their junior Ministers yesterday to try to tell the people they never had it so good. The census returns last August certainly were an indication to any responsible Party or group of people in this country that there would have to be a radical change in outlook, a jettisoning of old ideas and a firm decision to have some serious re-thinking of what has to be done.

There is no evidence in this Budget that that re-thinking is taking place. All we are told now is: "If you hold on, if you make sure you do not starve, if you make sure you do not die, if you make sure you do not become bankrupt, you will get another half-crown, you will get better health services or you will get some way of living in farming. Hold on until next year or the year after and things will be better". That approach will not solve anything and it will certainly not cod the people.

We were criticised yesterday and other days during this debate by Deputies on the other side that we were rather trenchant in our remarks from this side of the House. A Fianna Fáil Deputy, who claimed last night that he had never made a political speech in his life either in his constituency or in this House, complained that on this side of the House and particularly on the Fine Gael side, we were inclined to be too political. We are political. That is why we are here, not to pull punches, not to say sweet things and not to keep Ministerial complacency as complacent as it has been. Our concern as the Opposition in this House is to point out as strenuously as we can the manner in which this Government are not measuring up to their commitments to the people, and that we shall continue to do. We feel all the stronger in our position when we find there are complaints from Fianna Fáil that what we are saying is needling them into criticism.

I believe this Government are a fraud. They are incapable of carrying out their policy or their programme. They do not know what to do or how to do it and they are only concerned with sticking together, hoping that in some magical way things will get better so far as the country is concerned. That is not the kind of Government this country can afford at the moment. We should have in office a Government with ideas, that are able to give the country leadership, that are able to face the challenge of the Common Market with minds and ideas of their own, instead of having to put up with this bungling sort of performance we have experienced in the last 12 months or so about the Common Market.

This is the month of May of 1962. Twelve months ago if any Deputy said during the last Budget debate that this country was going into the Common Market there would have been cries of "nonsense" from Fianna Fáil. Twelve months ago the Common Market was just so much "cod" so far as the Fianna Fáil Party were concerned, despite the fact that in 1957 the Fine Gael Party had put down a motion here directing the attention of Dáil Éireann to the coming Common Market in Europe and asking the Government to take the necessary steps to prepare this country for entry into that market and measuring up to whatever might be involved in that new coming together in Europe. Of course, we were told that our motion and what we were saying was irresponsible, that it did not matter, that Fianna Fáil had all the sense. Therefore, they wasted the first year, a second year, a third year, a fourth year, a fifth year, and then just ten months ago they all pulled up their socks, hitched up the old trousers and out they went having discovered at least that there was going to be a Common Market in Europe.

What have they been doing ever since? They have been foostering around the country, one Minister pulling out the sword with one hand and waving a gun in the other hand and saying: "Get ready, boys. We are all going to join NATO"; then another Minister saying: "That is not so." One Minister saying: "That means the end of our political independence," and another Minister saying: "You are going too far, Mick." What is the result of that? The country is in complete bewilderment and confusion, and is anybody surprised if that confusion should be there?

The Lord Mayor of Dublin will settle it.

They sent the Lord Mayor of Dublin to America. You know, we will have to mark the occasion when the Lord Mayor of Dublin condescends to visit this city.

I do not see what this has to do with the Budget.

It has nothing to do with the city of Dublin, I agree, because the city of Dublin never sees him.

I do not see what the Deputy's remarks have to do with the Budget. The Deputy's remarks have no relation to the Budget.

They have relation to Government policy, and it is upon Government policy the Budget is based.

We are discussing financial policy.

We are discussing general Government policy.

We are discussing general financial policy.

Does the Chair rule we are not entitled to discuss general Government policy on the Budget?

I am just pointing out that the question of the Lord Mayor does not arise on the Budget. It is not relevant.

I am going to make it relevant. I want to know from the Minister for Finance why a Deputy of his Party has been permitted to circulate throughout the United States of America, swapping bases in this country for industries, and all the rest of it? Why has somebody not stopped him? Why has somebody not brought him back here, where he should be representing the city whose chain he wears, and representing the constituency that sent him here, instead of peregrinating throughout the United States, causing embarrassment to the country and embarrassment to his own colleagues? Of course, that is symptomatic of the fact that, in relation to the big issues which now face the country—there is a good deal of talk about the Common Market, the Seven, and the Six—this Government are at sixes and sevens. They do not know where they are going. They do not know what will happen. They do not know what the future is likely to be.

How are they in office? They are in office with the support of a few Independents.

If they supported the Deputy, he would be all right.

Deputy Lemass will have a chance to speak, if he wants to. The Government are in office with the support of a few Independents. I do not blame the Independents. I do not blame Deputy Sherwin. I am sure he is doing the best he can for his constituents.

For the country.

It is a strange thing that, in the course of this Budget debate, Government Ministers should be making speeches not in defence of their Budget, not in defence of Government policy, but in praising Independents. That is a new look as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. Now an Independent wears a halo provided he turns left when he walks to the top of the stairs; if he turns right, the halo will be taken from him, and he will no longer be described as canonised.

He is an Independent then, if he will vote with you.

This is not good for the country.

Of course not; the Independents should vote with the Deputy.

It is not good for the country that we should have this kind of Government in office at the moment.

I am sure the people think it is.

The people do not think so. Give the people an opportunity of saying what they think.

We are always on that tack: give the people an opportunity. Every time they got an opportunity, they put the Deputy out. Forty members coming back, and the Deputy talks about——

The Minister should keep quiet. The Minister sneers at 40 members—it is 47. Will the Minister have a general election? I have no doubt he will be bitterly sorry he ever started it.

He is thinking of the time before the last election. There were only 40 then; it increased to 47.

Yes, 47.

And where did the seven come from? There are seven ghosts on the Government benches, and there are seven men on this side of the House.

A miserable 47!

After 47 years.

I said this Government are in a not very happy position, but it is a position of their own choosing. They are facing the Common Market negotiations. I shall not discuss the problems they have to face, but they have to face problems. In relation to what is involved in our entry into the Common Market, in relation to allied problems, the Government have not taken the people into their confidence. They are a dependent Government, not an independent Government. They have failed to give the country the leadership it requires so urgently at the moment, and will require increasingly urgently in the future.

I do not know how long the Government will last. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands said yesterday the Government would last for the normal duration. If they do, so be it. If the Government last for the normal period of this Dáil, I can only hope that sooner or later the Government will distil some clear policy. What we have witnessed in the last twelve months is a going back on all the things that were promised. The programme for economic expansion has now been scrapped. It no longer represents anything. Every directive in it has been abandoned because it was politically expedient to abandon them. If this Budget adumbrates Government policy for the future, it is obvious that we will have in the future a series of temporising measures introduced here in order to get over particular difficulties and particular Votes. I do not believe that is good policy for the country. So far as we in Fine Gael are concerned we will continue to do our duty here, conscious of the fact that we have a clear policy and a clear programme.

I do not know what it is.

I am not surprised. I cannot expect the Minister to know what our policy is when he does not know what his own policy is.

I was never told what the Deputy's policy was.

I can assure the Minister we will continue to do our job here as the main Opposition. We will continue to act as a vigilant Opposition until such time as—I believe it will not be very long—we are asked to assume a greater responsibility in this House.

I am glad to have an opportunity of speaking. My name has been mentioned many times just because I found myself in a position, which I had not invited——

I went forward in the last election as an Independent. I am still an Independent. After the last election, I had to face up to my responsibilities. I was faced with the position that, if I did not support Deputy Lemass as Taoiseach, there would be no Government in the country. I had a moral obligation to the country to ensure that a Government would function. For that, and for no other reason, I supported Deputy Lemass. I might have supported Deputy Dillon if he had had a few more men returned to this House and if it were possible for him to form a Government. It was not possible, and I did the obvious thing. I knew, in doing that, that I would be black-balled by a number of people, but I decided it was up to me to act responsibly, rather than run with the crowd, which is what the average fellow does in order to be on the safe side. I accepted that responsibility because I was confident that what I was doing was the right thing. Time will prove that I did the right thing. I am not a man who depends on gimmicks or running with the crowd; I depend on hard work. I am quite satisfied I still have the confidence of the people.

Before I deal with the Budget proper, I should like to give a short quotation. There has been a good deal of reference to fraud in this debate. The quotation is from President Kennedy. He mentioned a syndicated columnist, who had millions of "ears". That columnist said that people do not give a damn what the average senator or congressman says. The reason they do not give a damn is that what they hear is 99 per cent. tripe, ignorance and demagogy and cannot be replied on. I accept that largely.

Apart from what President Kennedy says, I have my own experience of politicians. I am an Independent Deputy and I am in a position to know about politics and politicians and I took considerable care to study men and politics. I am satisfied from my experience of this House that at least 90 per cent of what is said by the Opposition is tripe especially when a controversial Budget is being discussed. A Budget is something the impact of which hits almost everybody. Everyone who smokes has felt the impact of this Budget; everyone who takes a beer has been hit; all the people who wanted something have been hit. The Budget presented an excellent opportunity for the Opposition to go to town and they took full advantage of it. A Budget is an election in the abstract.

I realise that the Opposition are bound to talk tripe 90 per cent of the time because they want to bring down the Government. If they do not adopt that attitude, if they do not put the Government in the worst possible position, they will not succeed in bringing it down. Politicians accept that lying and codding are all part of the game. They feel it is fully justified. They feel that is the only way to keep their end up and the only way to get the best of their opponents. I am not saying that the present Opposition are 90 per cent cod. When the inter-Party Government were in office, Fianna Fáil were as much cods as the present Opposition. If an Opposition hope to get the Government down, they must misrepresent and tell lies.

Nothing said in this House is intended for the people in this House; it is all intended for the simpleminded people outside. Politicians accept that half the people are simpleminded, that they never have an overall outlook and that therefore they will swallow anything said to them. Deputy Dillon is supposed to have said that if you say a thing often enough, the people will finally believe it. That is politics. That sort of tactic is carried on by every Opposition and that is why I pay no attention to what the Opposition say. I am prepared to admit that they are as decent a crowd as the people in power but they have to go on codding. When they cease to cod, they will cease their efforts to dislodge the Government, but I pity the people outside who will have to make up their minds as between one side and the other.

During this debate, reference was made by four Deputies to the housing position in Dublin. Deputy Costello made reference to it on column 63 of the Dáil Debates of 2nd May and Deputy Ryan made reference to it at column 117 of 2nd May. He said that the ultimate authority lies not with the local authority but with the Government. Deputy Ryan is a councillor of the Dublin Corporation. Deputy Sweetman also mentioned my name and referred to the housing position in Dublin. Here is the truth with regard to that matter. In the summer of 1958, the first year of the Fianna Fáil Government, the then Housing Committee responsible for housing policy consisted of five Fianna Fáil members and ten anti-Fianna Fáil members. It was that committee of 15 that decided not to build any more.

The reason that committee of 15, ten of whom were anti-Fianna Fáil, decided not to build any more was the large vacancy rate in corporation dwellings. Here are the figures which I got from Mr. Molloy only yesterday. In 1954-55, there were 605 vacancies; in the next year, 1955-56, there were 763 vacancies; and in the year 1956-57, there were 986 vacancies. In the three years, there was a total of 2,300 vacancies, due to people leaving and going to Britain. In the following three years when the present Government were in office, the vacancy rate for the first year, 1957-58, was 1,294. In 1958-59, it was 1,393 and in 1959-60, it was 1,605. In the three years the Coalition Government were in office, the number of vacancies was 2,300 and in the following three years the number was 4,300. That is the reason the Housing Committee decided, in the interests of the ratepayers, not to build any more houses because there was no need for them, because people were going away in droves. Nevertheless, four Deputies, two of whom are members of the Corporation, lied here.

The Deputy should not use the word "lie."

Very well—call it what you like. It has been said that homicide is not a crime, if it is justified. I hold that lies are justified in politics.

The use of the word "lie" is not in order.

I thought that as long as I do not call anyone a liar, it does not matter. Deputy O'Higgins called somebody a fraud at the tail-end of his speech.

That is a different matter.

I thought it was worse to say it is a fraud than to say it is a lie. It does not matter. I am proving my point.

It was a committee of 15, of which the Government Party have only five members, who decided they would not build any more because of the huge number of vacancies and because 60 per cent. of those who were being offered vacancies refused to take them. I hope we shall hear no more about who was responsible. It is very simple for the Opposition to come along here with figures—lies—it is the easiest thing in the world. They say: "We spent £5 million: they spent only £2 million." That proves nothing. When you spent the £5 million houses were needed and when £2 million was spent they were not needed—and it was the Housing Committee that decided not to build any more. It was only in 1961 that we decided again on a five-year programme—because then the situation began to change. People stopped going away and started to come back from Britain. It was only with that experience that we decided to re-start the housing on the perimeter. That is why thousands of dwellings are now being built.

Just before I finish with housing, I want to remark that much has been said about the housing problem in Dublin. A figure of 7,000 has been mentioned. Actually, the problem is only 4,000 because 3,000 cases who have applied, according to the medical authority, do not require housing accommodation. Therefore, the actual figure is only 4,000. One thousand houses are being built. We hope to hand the whole one thousand over by January and we hope to build 1,500 next year. The important point is that it was the policy-making committee that decided to build. It has nothing to do with the Government.

Another little matter has been bashed around the House—the favours done to the ballroom proprietors. I am not here to defend the Fianna Fáil Budget but I am here to speak about things that I do know about. No matter who would be the Government, I would speak on certain things that I would know about and that I would know were wrong or distorted or untrue. Here is the position about the concessions to the ballroom proprietors.

I happen to have been in the dance game—not now. Let it not be assumed that I am in it now in case it might be said it was done for Sherwin. I gave up my dance business when I became a member of this House and I sacrificed £12 a week in doing so. I know all about the dance business. I know the problem that the tax on dancing was to the Revenue Commissioners. It was a nightmare to the Revenue Commissioners, and it always was, for the simple reason that half of the people who ran dances were only straw men, had no stake, had not a bob, were chancing their arm and never gave out tax tickets. The Revenue Commissioners knew that. They had to have a large staff on night duty and they had to go back half a dozen times. In other words, they actually had to stand at the door because of the sorts of people who ran dances. Some of them are big noises but most of them are little fellows, clubs, and so on. They give a tax ticket to maybe half a dozen; anyone they would know would get none. The Revenue people told me, time out of number, that they wished to God the tax was done away with; that their hearts were broken; that it was not worth it; that the cost of administration was prohibitive. It was not worth a candle; the men were driven crazy.

You cannot compare the dance halls with picture houses because picture houses are owned by people of means and if they do anything wrong they can be nailed and fined £1,000. A fellow who has nothing cannot be fined £1,000. Try to picture the dance hall. In the average dance hall, the clients are known personally to the doorman, to the fellow running it. He knows them all by name. It was the easiest thing in the world—no tax tickets, none. The Revenue man asks for it and he is told: "I threw it away." You cannot do that in a picture house because there would be a stranger in the box and everyone would get a ticket. Everything was on the up and up and there was no trouble. The Revenue people came along now and again and got their dough and were satisfied.

I know that the dance business was a nightmare. I can understand the Minister's desire to get rid of it. It was got rid of twice and it was reimposed twice. It was a nightmare and the law was evaded nine times out of ten, regularly every year since the day it was put on. It is better that something be abolished than that there should be wholesale contempt for it. That is the position regarding the dance halls. Again, I am proving that some of the Opposition are talking through their hats.

Let us deal with the judges. I am dealing with the matter only because I voted for the increase for the judges. This question was bashed around, too, very nicely. There are only twelve judges. Do not forget that no objection was made to the district justices— only to the senior judges. There are only twelve of them and the total amount they get is about £6,000 which, less tax, is about £3,000. Of course, the Opposition went to town. They knew what the reaction would be to the increase given to the judges and to the 2/6d. "Look at that fellow who is getting an increase of £50." They never said that there are only 12 judges while there are 50,000 of the others.

What about all the officials of the local authorities and the Civil Service? Only two days ago, there was a list of the senior members of the Corporation and county council who are receiving from £35 to £50 a week and who are getting from £200 to £300 extra. Every local authority official in Ireland is getting the same and all the senior officers in the Civil Service are getting increases. About 1,000 officials with from £35 to £50 a week are getting a substantial increase because of the eighth round but no reference was made to them.

The Opposition knew that the increase to the judges was unpopular but the other fellows—1,000 of them— have pals everywhere. Is it not dishonest to keep harping on the 12 judges without saying anything about the 1,000 persons who got increases even though they already enjoy substantial salaries? Furthermore, there is no comparison between the judges and other people. You cannot compare a judge with an official. An official can walk into a public house any day and nobody will pay the slightest attention to him but a judge cannot do that. He has to live a different type of life from that of an official. If you do not pay them you get dud judges. Then maybe you would get judges who would get back handers. You might just as well say that the Labour Party would compare the money received by Queen Elizabeth, Prince Philip and Princess Margaret with what the unemployed get. Of course, they would not do it. I do not want to hear that nonsense.

I am satisfied that, no matter what Government were in power, they would do the same thing. The only case you could make is if you could show and prove you would not do it. Of course, you would do it. You have to give those people, according to their standing in life, a proportionate increase as in the case of all the senior officials of the municipal authority and the Civil Service. I know it is a good gimmick to go to a lot of poor simpleminded people and to say that one person has received an increase of £50 a week whereas others are receiving an increase of only 2/6d. a week. That is dishonest.

Let us get back to the much-mentioned half a crown. Deputy O'Higgins's statement was a lie. I will say a lie this time. I never said that——

Will the Deputy resume his seat for a moment?

May I explain?

The Deputy may not use the word "lie". He must withdraw the word "lie".

All right. I shall withdraw the word "lie". May I explain? I never said I would vote against the Government if they did not give 5/-. If I cannot use the word "lie", then I submit the Chair could have protected me by asking the Deputy to quote. I have the quotations here. Let me quote from the Dáil Reports of March 13th, 1962, when I spoke on the motion by the Minister for Finance.

Mr. Sherwin: I will not accept a bob or two.

Here is an extract from the Dáil Reports of 21st March, 1962, on the motion relating to a review of pensions:

Mr. Sherwin: I want a fair increase not a bob or ?—that will be no use.

Later in the same debate, I said I would not now accept a bob or two. The only reference I made to 5/- was to give an opinion, which is a different thing altogether. I never said I would vote against the Government. When that was reported in the newspapers, I challenged the newspaper and the excuse I got from the reporter was that he gave the report to someone else to jazz it up and make it a bit controversial. A lie was put in the newspaper to make the thing more controversial so that a lot of riff-raff could challenge and abuse me. I submit that you should have asked Deputy O'Higgins to quote. He could not quote.

Deputy Flanagan speaking here on May 2nd at column 170 of the Dáil Reports described something I was supposed to have said in the Evening Mail. He described an interview I was supposed to have had with the Taoiseach; the bargain I made; what the Taoiseach said and what I did. That was a lie. That was mentioned when he was asked by the Chair to quote. There was nothing in it.

Will Deputy Sherwin please understand that the word "lie" is a disorderly word and may not be used? The Deputy might use the word untrue for a change, which would be in order.

It is the same thing but I will put it your way, Sir. I have all the copies of the Evening Mail here. There is no reference in the Evening Mail to any interview or any discussion. Nevertheless, the Deputy, in answer to you, Sir, or, perhaps, it was the Ceann Comhairle, is supposed to have read it out. There is nothing about it in the Evening Mail. I never had any discussion whatsoever with any member of the Government since the day it was formed—never, not before the vote for the Taoiseach and not before the Budget. To my knowledge, no other Independent, who voted for the Government, had any interviews one way or another with the Government. In fact, on each occasion, I did not know who was going this way or who was going that way. On the day we voted for the Taoiseach, I did not know where Deputy Carroll was going until he went to this side of the House. That is the position today. The Government do not know what way I shall vote.

I made a statement that because I believed there ought to be a Government, I was going to support the Government to a certain extent so that a Government would function. I gave no guarantees and I have not yet given any guarantees.

In regard to the halfcrown, I could do no more than agitate. I could not dictate to the Government. No Government would take dictation from an individual just for the sake of office. No self-respecting individual or Government would do that.

To suggest that I could have made: them give more is nonsense. I agitated; I did the best I could in the form of agitation. The agitation had some results. What the results were, I am not certain, but agitation always has results.

I was not satisfied with the halfcrown. I had made up my mind and I told Deputy Dunne before that it was the least I would vote for. I was not terribly anxious to vote against the Government. There is such a thing as responsibility here. I had to consider what the effect would be on the country. Hundreds of thousands of pounds would be lost by the State and by the ratepayers. There would have to be a campaign in the winter and the Opposition would be driven to the point of distraction with worry, not having paid half their election debts. To be candid, I have not paid half of them myself. I had to weigh up a number of things.

Suppose another Government came back and a similar state of affairs existed, what would the country think? I could have played to the gallery. I could have gone where the three cheers were. Rather than do that, I decided to do the responsible thing. It cost something to vote for that increase. I had to do an awful lot of explaining and had to have a campaign in the newspapers. I had to face abuse of every description but I do not care. I did the best for those people and I could do no more. It was not a question of being satisfied.

Again, with regard to the halfcrown, there is no evidence that the Opposition would have given any more. I do not want to fight the case for Fianna Fáil. I have studied this whole business and have gone back over Budgets for the past 15 years. In 1948, an increase of 2/6d. was granted by the Coalition. Nothing was given in 1949 or 1950. What is all the talk about? In 1955, there was 2/6d. given, but nothing was given in 1960. In 1948, too, £750,000 was put on beer and in 1955, there was 6d. put on the 20-packet of cigarettes. It is just a case of the kettle calling the pot black.

I do not believe that this campaign is honest at all. I do not know why the Government could not give more. One thing the Opposition at least ought to admit, independent of that altogether, is that they did give 2/6d. to the unemployed, extra money for the children and 2/6d. for the disable and the blind, but no mention was made of those things. That makes the case dishonest on the part of the Opposition. When you pin-point only one thing and keep back and ignore a lot of other things, that is not an honest approach to the people outside.

I am not satisfied that the Opposition would have given any more. Their past does not prove it and the only way you can judge anything is by the past. If the Opposition won an election and came back, they might have played safe and given 6d. or a "bob" extra but then there is the possibility that they would give nothing. In the circumstances, I would prefer Fianna Fáil having given the 2/6d. There is too much being made of the 2/6d. It is not that the Opposition think it was miserable; it is the one weak chink in the whole armour of the Budget. They have played it up. They played it up against the judges and then played it back again in this debate but kept quiet about everything else. That is dishonest. It is, of course, a pity my vote did not succeed in getting more, but I cannot dictate to the Government, even if I do know that by putting pressure on the Government I might get a little more. I am always satisfied with a little.

How could the Government allow any Independent Deputy to dictate to them? The Government obviously had their own overall view on this. They said they would do better than the other crowd, and maybe they did, too. All I can do is my best. Having got so much for the old age pensioners, I was not delighted but I said it was acceptable to me for the time being. If anything less had been given, I would have been morally bound to vote against the Government. My attitude in relation to the Government is simply this: I believe I am doing the right thing, the responsible thing. I am doing one of the things that President Kennedy would have done. He quotes people of courage, people against whom the crowd turned but who were later proved to have been in the right.

Going with the crowd is never the right thing. It is the cheap thing, the thing that does not cost anything. For ten years, people have been going with the crowd in Dublin promising to rectify the differential rent system. They have not done it. They could not do it because they had no power to do it. But I, in a small way, had the differential rents system amended three times, with the result that people in the social welfare classes have benefited to the extent of 2/- a week. It is a small amount but it is better than the £10,000 promises that never materialised.

I have said my piece. I shall support the Budget and support the Government for a reasonable time in the country's interest and I do not care what the Opposition says. I am quite prepared to give the Opposition credit for being an honest crowd, but of course there are rogues everywhere as well as honest people. Politics is a game in which there may be fraud, but I am an Independent Deputy and I do not have to defraud anybody.

I feel sure it is a matter of very great relief to the Minister for Finance and Deputies opposite to hear Deputy Sherwin say he is prepared to support the Government for a reasonable time——

In the country's interest.

——because the picture I have of this Government —and I think it is a picture other people have in their minds as well— is summed up in the words of a song popular here some years ago—"The doggie in the window, the one with the waggly tail". The waggly tail of the Government subsided just now when Deputy Sherwin sat down. He seems to take it amiss that people might have misunderstood his views with regard to a 5/- increase for old age pensioners, and were it not for his well-known respect for the rules of order, he might have characterised some of the references to him as being lies. But I think Deputy Sherwin should at least judge in a charitable light the Deputies who may have misunderstood his intentions, because it is quite clear from the newspapers that it was not only Deputies on this side of the House who misunderstood Deputy Sherwin's attitude. Representatives of the Press must have misunderstood him also.

They wanted circulation.

We find in the Evening Mail for April 11th last, big, black, bold headlines on the front page: “Sherwin—why he backed down”.

That is a lie. It was challenged. They said the report was given to someone else who jazzed it up.

We are coming to the jazz bands. Others besides the Deputies here misunderstood Deputy Sherwin. This is what the report in the Evening Mail had to say:

Independent Dublin Deputy Frank Sherwin, who in three Budget statements declared flatly that he would vote against the Budget and the Government unless there was a minimum five shillings increase for old age pensioners, today explained why he changed his mind in last night's critical vote when Lemass scraped home by a hairsbreadth majority.

Is my name on that? Did I sign it? This is the jazzing up.

That is the impression that was created and how can Deputy Sherwin blame anyone in the House, if people outside had the same impression?

Did anyone see it in any newspaper since?

Later in the report, there is a quotation attributed to Deputy Sherwin:

"If the present Dáil lasts another year the Government will be in the same position when the next Budget comes along and I will be holding out for that other halfcrown."

That is more jazzing up, more invention. All that was jazzed up to get circulation. That is the reason.

Does the Deputy notice that they did not repeat it? They invited me to deny it.

There were a lot of views about Deputy Sherwin from his own constituents.

They were false.

However, I am not really interested in Deputy Sherwin.

Riff-raff.

Deputy Sherwin has already made his speech and must desist.

I will not be libelled. There was no repeat performance by the Evening Mail who admitted they got somebody to jazz it up. Would the Deputy quote the Official Reports, if he wants the truth?

As I said, I am not really concerned with Deputy Sherwin, expect that he is the waggly tail of the Fianna Fáil Party. As far as this Budget goes, I think it is fair, and I do not think the Minister will resent it, if I describe it as being dull and disappointing. In fact, the imaginative heights to which the Minister has succeeded in rising in this Budget is to the extent of bumming off the beer drinkers of the country in order to balance his Budget. That is the most novel form of finance he can think of in this year of 1962 when we were told we were to have in government a dynamic team of men, the type necessary to face the challenge of the Common Market. All they could think of in order to give a halfcrown to the old age pensioners next August and reliefs to the bigger farmers was to bum off the beer drinkers of the country to raise the finance.

This year, we have the biggest ever Book of Estimates, exceeding, in total, £148,000,000, an increase on the face of the Book of Estimates of more than £39,500,000 on the Estimates for the year ended 31st March, 1957. That is the actual increase on the face of the Book of Estimates, but, in fact, it goes, of course, much further than that. One of the first things the Fianna Fáil Government did in 1957, when they were elected to office, was to abolish the food subsidies and save the Exchequer a sum of £9,000,000. So it is perfectly fair in comparing the Estimate for 1957 with the Estimate for the present year, to add to the Estimate for the present year a sum of £9,000,000.

In addition, we are entitled to take into consideration the fact mentioned by Deputy Sweetman in his statement following the Minister's Financial Statement that the ordinary buoyancy—I do not care whether or not we call it buoyancy—of the revenue would enable the Minister to take in an additional £8,000,000 revenue last year. So the true comparison as between 1957, when Fianna Fáil got back into office, and the present year is an increase of Government expenditure, as reflected in the Book of Estimates, of £56¼ million. That is an increase of £56¼ million by the Party which went around the country preaching economy and criticising extravagance in Government administration in 1955, 1956 and up to 1957. It is an increase of £56¼ million introduced by the same Minister who in his Budget statement of 1957 held out all sorts of hopes to this House and to the country of a drastic reduction in the Civil Service and drastic economies in Government administration. After a few years in office the best they can do is to increase the burden on the people, as reflected in the Book of Estimates, by £56¼ million.

It is not always easy, particularly talking late in a Budget debate, to decide exactly how one should tackle the job. Deputies on the opposite benches will, I am sure, be glad to know that in deciding how I should approach the Budget I went to a mentor of whom I am sure they would approve. I looked up what the Taoiseach said in relation to the Budget of 1956. Just for a minute or two I should like to try to parallel my remarks and my line of reasoning with the lines laid down by the Taoiseach when he spoke from these benches in 1956. At Column 45 of the Official Report of 8th May, 1956, he said:

The Budget which the Minister for Finance has just announced will, I think, come as a great shock and a great disappointment to the people of this country.

He continued:

The heavy increases in taxation which are to be imposed will provide the shock; the disappointment will arise from the evidence that this Government appears to have no conception of policy or plan for dealing with the very serious national problems which, in their incompetence, they have allowed to develop.

Will any Deputy in this House fault me if I adopt each and every one of those words of the Taoiseach in relation to the present year?

They were true then but not now.

If they were true then why are they not true now? The next quotation will be of interest to the Deputies opposite, and particularly to the newer Deputies such as the Parliamentary Secretary, who may not be aware of the Parliamentary record and records of the Fianna Fáil Party, and who may not be aware of certain decisions which the Fianna Fáil Party took, and announced bluntly in this House, with regard to taxation. At column 49 of the Official Report of 8th May, 1956, the Taoiseach said:

In 1953, the Fianna Fáil Government, of which I was a member, took a decision that taxation in this country had reached the danger limit. We announced that we had made up our minds on the fact and that, so far as we were concerned, there would be no increase in tax rates above the 1953 level. We made it clear that, if any Budget difficulty arose, that difficulty would be met by a reduction of expenditure and not by increasing the burdens on the taxpayer.

The man who uttered a statement, and formally placed it on the records of the House, that that decision was taken by his Party in 1953, is now the leader of the Party of which the Minister for Finance is the financial wizard who brings about a situation where after three or four years of their administration the Book of Estimates shows an increase, in fact, of more than £56¼ million, and an increase on its face of something like £39¼ million. That is the Party that took this decision which is on the records of the House.

Deputy O'Higgins is long enough at the game to know the difference between an increase in income and an increase in the rates of taxation.

Deputy O'Higgins is long enough at the game to know what an increase in Government expenditure of £56¼ million means. In that context another remark by the Taoiseach on the same occasion would be very relevant. At column 47 this is what he had to say:

Have the Government any sense of responsibility? Have they any knowledge of the tasks that are facing them? Did it occur to them that this Budget deficit of theirs should be rectified by reducing the cost of Government? At one time they said that was possible. At one time they professed to believe that that was such an easy task that they had no difficulty in putting a figure upon the reduction that they could bring about.

Why does not the Taoiseach nudge his financial wizard in the side this year and remind him of that, and remind him that when he was on these benches he had committed his Party to reducing the cost of Government, and reducing Government expenditure? I could give plenty more of these quotations, and I could give plenty of quotations from the Tánaiste as well as the Taoiseach, and if I am tempted I will. That is the line the Taoiseach took when he was dealing with the Budget in 1956.

In black 1956.

We will come to black 1956 in a few minutes.

What line did the people take in 1957?

Let me remind the Deputy if he is so gulled by Party propaganda, that in 1956 the Taoiseach was complaining of an increase of £8,000,000 in the Book of Estimates, and I am complaning now of an increase of £56¼ million.

Should the Deputy not relate that to the increase in the national income?

It was in 1956, also, that a Deputy who has since become a junior member of the Government tendered some advice to the Government. I am referring to the Deputy who holds the post of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy O'Malley Speaking on 14th March, 1956, some couple of months before that speech of the Taoiseach's which I have quoted, at column 536 of the Official Report, Deputy O'Malley had this advice to give the Government of that day:

The local authorities—the people —cannot pay any more in rates. The only solution of a constructive nature, as far as I can see, is that the Government should give the example. How could the Government do that? In my humble opinion the Government should give the example at the top. Take one example—the Department of Justice. Does everybody not know that the Department of Justice, instead of costing the taxpayers some £100,000, could be equally competently carried on by the Minister for Defence? Everyone knows the Minister for Defence could be Minister for Justice as well and carry on both Departments.

Then he said:

I am simply showing the Parliamentary Secretary how the cost of Government can be reduced.

I do not think the Deputy on my right who made some remarks was in the last Dáil. If he had been, he would know that as soon as Fianna Fáil got back into office, instead of amalgamating the Department of Defence and the Department of Justice, they increased the staff of the Department of Justice and in addition to having a Minister, they gave him a Parliamentary Secretary as well. In this Dáil, the heir-apparent, or I should call him the heir-presumptive, has taken office and has become Minister for Justice. What have they done? Instead of a new Parliamentary Secretary whom they had put into the Department which in those days Deputy O'Malley wanted abolished, they created a new Ministry. If any Deputy opposite asks for my views as to how there can be economies by the Government, the first thought I would give them a present of is that they should do away completely with a particularly useless Ministry and I intend no reflection at all on the occupant of that position who, I am quite sure, is an able and energetic Deputy. There seems to me to be no sense in creating the Department, or at any rate, the Ministry, of Transport and Power. It should be abolished and the people should be saved the expense involved to that office.

I do not know what the expense is because it is not very easy to make it out from the way the Book of Estimates is compiled. However, for the year 1959-60, which was the first year in which that particular post was established, the Minister and the secretariat cost this country £7,624. The following year they cost the country—I presume it was for a full year—£11,694. After that, it is not possible to make it out from the Book of Estimates because a number of other items have been bulked in together with what was formerly shown separately in respect of the Minister and the secretariat. I think that post should be abolished.

We have the same number of Ministers as you had.

I am talking about what I believe to be an unnecessary post——

Why attack one person?

——because I believe it to be quite useless. I am not attacking the Minister. It seems to me to be quite useless and whenever a problem of a critical nature arises in relation to the transport services, the Government apparently feel it is a matter which is proper to be dealt with not by the Minister for Transport and Power but by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The same is also true in regard to the electricity end of what I assume is his Department.

Deputy Norton suggested it.

I do not care who suggested it. I am giving my views and let me say this, in case the Parliamentary Secretary is under any misapprehension, that we on this side of the House believe the number of Ministers can be reduced and should be reduced.

They were not reduced in your time.

They were increased.

If the Minister cares to give us the opportunity to have an election——

(Interruptions.)

Is that not a very bright remark from a very bright young man? What relevance has it to what I am talking about? That position could very well be done away with. I think there is a natural affinity between transport and communications and if I may make so bold as to venture on to the same ground as the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance in 1956, I would recommend there might be an amalgamation of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the Department of Transport and Power.

One of the Deputies who was fond of his Party's propaganda referred to "black 1956". That was the type of propaganda on which Deputies on the opposite benches were fed and on which, in turn, they fed the people. It has already been pointed out that in "the black year of 1956", about which they are so fond of talking, there were more people in employment than there were since, by something like 60,000, despite the fact——

Where were they working?

In this country, not in Birmingham or Manchester, as they are now. That was the year——

Deputy O'Higgins is entitled to speak without interruption.

That was the year which followed the publication of the Fianna Fáil plan for 100,000 new jobs. I am sorry—I understand they are sensitive about calling it a plan; they tell us it was not really a plan, that it was only a set of proposals for discussion. I do not care whether you call it a plan or proposals, or regard it simply as an exercise in debating. The fact is, and every Deputy opposite knows it, the people were given the impression that Fianna Fáil had a plan, that if Fianna Fáil were elected, that plan would be put into operation, and that the result of that plan would be 100,000 new jobs for the people. In advertisements, in speeches, in propaganda, in literature and by convassing from house to house, that was drummed into the ears of every elector. You had that kind of advertisement: "Unemployment Is The Test". We had this kind of speech made by the Taoiseach who is reported in the Fianna Fáil bible, the Irish Press, on 23rd of February, 1957 as saying:

The policy of any Government should be judged by its effect on employment—

employment—

If it is putting more people into work it is all right. If it is putting them out of work it is all wrong.

That is the Party who have put some 60,000 odd people out of work since they got into office.

That is wrong.

Completely.

Well, it might be 50,000 or 55,000.

About 17,000.

In the Irish Press of 16th February, 1957, the Taoiseach—he was not Taoiseach then —said:

Unless the policy of the Government is successful in putting people to work, of giving a chance of getting work to all who are dependent on it for their livelihood, it is not good enough. The aim of any worthwhile policy must be full employment.

All of this was being said and being published in the context of the Fianna Fáil plans, or proposals—whatever they like to call them—for 100,000 new jobs. Where are they now? They have an additional Minister, but for the ordinary people, where are the 100,000 new jobs?

They are appreciating at the rate of 10,000 a year.

The Parliamentary Secretary presumably is accepting as correct the figures of the British office of Irish people entering into employment. That is where the jobs are being increased.

I dealt with that.

During that period also, we had the Party opposite crying out about the cost of living.

And no money from you people.

The Sunday Press of 15th January, 1956, was induced by a speech of the Taoiseach to set up these headlines: “Living Costs Never Ceased to Rise.” We had, in by-elections and in general elections, this type of propaganda being issued by the Fianna Fáil Party, illustrated pamphlets to show the various commodities which had increased in price.

During the course of this debate, one of the Ministers—I think it was the Minister for Transport and Power —had the audacity to complain about criticism levelled against Fianna Fáil based on the increases in the cost of living. This was the kind of thing issued by Fianna Fáil to Deputies-the various things that had gone up in price. I should like if some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies who may have preserved copies of these would examine them this evening. We see here "Beer and Whiskey—You pay more." You can say ditto to that today.

But we increased the wages.

You see here "Cigarettes and Tobacco—You pay more." You can say ditto to that today. You see here "Train and Bus Fares—You pay more." You can say ditto to that today. You see here "Rent and Rates—You pay more." You can say ditto to that today. You see here "Telegrams—You pay more." You can say ditto to that today.

All our loans were over-subscribed.

You see here "Gas and Electricity—You pay more." You can say ditto to that today. They found that this idea was so very successful at a by-election which was held at Cork city, where this first appeared, that they brought it out for the general election and put it in full on their front page and put on the back page "Full Employment." There we had the twin barrels being fired against the Government-full employment would be given by Fianna Fáil and there was all the propaganda about the cost of living. In regard to both of those aspects there is no Party in this country or in any other country that could ever have failed so miserably as the present Government Party have failed since the year 1957.

When I was referring to the increase in the Book of Estimates since Fianna Fáil again became responsible for the affairs of this country in 1957, I mentioned the fact that to get an accurate and proper view of the picture we were entitled to take into account not only the additional revenue last year but the £9 million a year which the Government saved the Exchequer by abolishing the food subsidies in 1957. There is another thing we are entitled to take into account, that is, the fact that the Government which went before them bequeathed to them the Prize Bond Scheme, which had been established by Deputy Sweetman as Minister for Finance.

I was not here during the portion of the discussion yesterday but I understand that the Minister for Finance disagreed when Deputy McGilligan said that the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach had referred to that scheme as a raffle. I want to repeat that. I have since taken the occasion of consulting the records to see how the Party opposite reacted when that scheme was introduced. Of course, they know now that the Minister for Finance—and I give him credit for it—has time and again since then gone on record as expressing his thanks and gratitude to Deputy Sweetman for establishing the Prize Bond Scheme.

When it was first introduced on 28th November, 1956, the present Taoiseach set what ultimately became the keynote of the attack on it. At column 1630 of the Dáil Debates of that day he said:

I shall not comment at this stage upon the proposal in relation to prize bonds. I do not know what amount of money the Government thinks is likely to be raised by that device.

"Device" was the word he used, giving the impression—whether deliberately or intentionally I am not going to say at the moment—that there was something shady about the idea of such a scheme being established. It was further discussed on the Committee Stage, but before I come to that perhaps it would be better chronologically to see what the present Tánaiste had to say on the Second Stage of the Bill which set up the Prize Bond Scheme.

On the following day, 29th Novemlished ber, 1956, at column 1715 of the Official Report for that day, we have these remarks made by Deputy MacEntee as he then was:

There are a few other things one could say about the premium bond issue. There we have another instance where within six months a person can secure capital appreciation to the extent of a fraction over two per cent. free of tax. The Minister will, perhaps, be in office when he issues the bonds but if he is not, think of what his successor will be up against. One could jeer and sneer at these things. One could talk about the Minister and the Government running a poolroom or making a book. One could say that the Taoiseach would be going around the fairground with a band around his hat, saying: "Costello cannot cheat" or perhaps that the Minister for Agriculture might have another band around his, saying "Dillon does not diddle".

We can make jokes about it but it is a serious problem not merely for the Minister for Finance but for everyone in this House.

I am skipping a bit. I shall read it if the Deputies want, but I do not want to be too boring. I shall finish up at column 1716, where he says:

I do not want to say any more about this situation. I think it is a bad thing and a poor thing that this State, which was founded not merely on the sacrifices of our generation but on those of previous generations, should, after a little over 30 years of self-government, be reduced to raising money on these terms.

Is there any support for the scheme in that speech by the Tánaiste? Will the present Minister for Finance portray that speech by the Tánaiste as thumping the drums in favour of the Prize Bond Scheme?

Does the Deputy remember the time Deputy Dillon said we were like a banana republic when we gave five per cent. on a loan?

I am talking about the Prize Bond Scheme. I have already given the Minister credit for the acknowledgment he gave to Deputy Sweetman for establishing it. I am showing his colleagues opposed it, and opposed it vigorously. I mentioned what the present Taoiseach said about it and what the present Tánaiste said about it. When the Committee Stage of that Bill was being considered on 5th December, 1956, the Tánaiste came back to give the House more about the prize bonds. At column 1934 of the Official Report for that day, he had this to say:

To my mind, this is a very objectionable provision. I assume the Minister is committed to this project of the prize bonds. As I said on the Second Reading, it is a very unfortunate thing for the country that we have been reduced to these straits. One cannot discuss the proposal in terms of ethics. I do not think there is any harm in any person having a gamble or speculation if he so wishes.

He finishes up his contribution on this occasion at column 1937 by saying:

It is very difficult, having regard to my general attitude towards betting and games of chance and things of that sort, to formulate the precise way in which one feels this is not the sort of thing we ought to do, that it is not the sort of thing we are justified in doing. It invokes in me at any rate a very strong feeling of dislike and distaste.

That was the Tánaiste who has been there for four or five years since operating this scheme. Deputy J. Brennan, the Parliamentary Secretary, had this to say at column 1937 of the same debate:

I want to endorse what Deputy MacEntee has said in regard to the distaste which this section of the Bill has caused in the minds of the people.

He went on to say somewhat later:

The introduction of the word "gamble" into State finance does not make for confidence and, goodness knows, confidence at the present time is a minus quantity.

When the Minister flattered his counterpart in England by introducing this measure-imitation is the sincerest form of flattery——

We can say "ditto" to that, because despite the views expressed by the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and by this Government, they flattered Deputy Sweetman by imitating what he did and continuing it. This had been described as a raffle by the Parliamentary Secretary. In the same column he said:

I do not know what the people in the cities think about it but in the country we have known a system whereby, when you wanted to raise the wind for any project that was in a shaky form, you resorted to what was known as a raffle.

The firm was going very shaky.

Again, at column 1938, he said:

I have not yet heard the Minister making any statement in defence of the introduction of these prize bonds. Perhaps there is something in it that does not meet the eye but it certainly would need to have a lot if it is to counteract the feeling of distrust that has been aroused by resorting to what in the minds of the country folk is the last resort, the raffle.

That is true enough. It was the last resort then.

That is the way in which that project was received by the Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party. It was an innovation, of course, and Fianna Fáil are essentially the Colonel Blimps of Irish politics. They are afraid of any innovation. They want to blunder along in the same old way and, as I said before, to bum off the beer drinkers in order to get their accounts balanced. They were afraid of that innovation. They thought there was something to be distrusted in it, that there was something distasteful about it.

Fianna Fáil set themselves up as being the know-alls in regard to the Common Market. Before the last election, they campaigned as the only people who knew anything about the Common Market or the European Economic Community. They made an appeal for funds which was sent out over the signature of the Taoiseach— let me make it clear I am not suggesting he signed it as Taoiseach; he signed as President of Fianna Fáil. We see in paragraph 3 of this document:

Because of the emergence of the European Economic Community and Ireland's application for membership, these next few years will be a time during which capacity to apply a consistent policy by reason of a clear Dáil majority will be vital for the future of the nation.

They had the hardihood to put that into their appeal for funds during the general election, notwithstanding the fact that they dithered along for four years without taking any steps at all in relation to the Common Market, notwithstanding the fact that they had been urged to do that by a formal motion from this side of the House. They did not do anything about it, until they woke up one morning and found that England was applying for membership and then they got into a panic about it. These were the people who then and now set themselves up as the experts in regard to the Common Market.

While I am on this document, it is worth refreshing the minds of Deputies in relation to some of its contents. The Taoiseach, as President of Fianna Fáil, went on to say:

I have asked the Fianna Fáil organisation throughout the country to make sure, by means of a vigorous and intensive election campaign, that the electorate is fully aware of all that is at stake and that the maximum possible support for the Government is mobilised on election day. For this purpose an adequate election fund is required. The cost of fighting elections has increased considerably in recent years——

Even that had increased under Fianna Fáil.

——and in appealing to you for a subscription I would ask you to make it as generous as possible. You can rightly regard it as an investment in good Government and political stability.

Deputies

Hear, hear!

I am not surprised to hear Deputies saying "hear, hear", but to me the use by the Taoiseach as President of Fianna Fáil, of the term "investment" in that sense smacks rather of political souperism. In any event, there were 100,000 fewer people who decided to invest in Fianna Fáil at the last general election. I do not know whether the term "investment" was intended to be used in the same sense as I heard it used by Deputy Sherwin in this House, that you have to give to get.

You have to get to give—the Deputy should reverse it.

I do not care what way the Deputy puts it. I do not know whether that was the idea running through this. Am I right in thinking there is an arrangement that the Minister is to get in at a particular time?

It is a great pity because I have only a minute to refer to an interjection which I thought should be dealt with and which was made by the Minister for Justice in regard to the External Relations Act. Perhaps we shall have another opportunity of talking about it. I should like to remind the Minister for Finance that despite all the propaganda made by his Party in relation to the action of Mr. Costello's Government in repealing that Act, a number of Deputies of his Party, including himself, went on record very specifically in regard to it. Speaking in Enniscorthy on 31st July, 1948, the Minister for Finance said:

If the Government should now desire to dispense with the King of England, they can do so, because the Constitution makes that possible. If the Government take action now, they will have our full support against any diehard opposition here or abroad.

Did we ever get their support?

Of course, you did, but we did not get the same support from you.

The present Taoiseach, speaking at Bray, as reported in the Irish Press on 20th September, 1948, said:

Those Fine Gael Leaders were now talking of amending the External Relations Act. That was all to the good, if it stood alone and was not a cover for something else. After Mr. de Valera's recent declarations concerning that Act the Government has had no choice. Factors which had delayed that change had ended. The changed conditions since the war made its amendment desirable now.... They told Mr. Costello that the External Relations Act was to go because it no longer served an Irish interest.

Speaking in Rathfarnham on 20th October, 1948, as reported in the Irish Press of 21st October, 1948, he had this to say:

The consequences of the repeal of the External Relations Act on Irish-British Relations, whether in regard to trade or other matters, were of less importance than would be the consequences of a reversal or postponement of the decision to repeal the Act because of British pressure.

Support for its repeal now had already been announced by Mr. de-Valera in the Dáil and elsewhere. Fianna Fáil welcomed the Government's decision to proceed with it.

...the majority of the Irish people were agreed that the Act should be repealed.

...members of Fianna Fáil did not conceal their disappointment that a step which their work had made practicable was not being taken under the guidance of a Fianna Fáil Government.

I want to put these quotations on record simply because I am sick and tired of the attitude which we meet in this country—Fianna Fáil sitting back and taking for granted what was being done, while doing their best to stir up trouble after it was done.

As far as the External Relations Act is concerned, we regarded that as foreign policy. The Government took certain action, and we supported them in it. When we brought in a Bill to abolish the oath, we were not supported by the Opposition. They joined forces with the British Government against us.

Is this a new charge now?

Of course, it is a new charge. Does the Deputy deny he did not join forces with them? He organised the Blueshirts, the Fifth Column in this country, to help fight for British interests.

Who were the Imperialists in the last war? The Minister should be ashamed of himself.

I should be ashamed? The Deputy should be ashamed of himself for supporting the Blueshirts. What is this country coming to at all?

Only for the Blueshirts here, the story might be different. Say a few words about them now and the Government's majority will be less.

I would be ashamed to say a few words to the Blueshirts, the British Fifth Column in this country. Let us get on with the Budget now.

The Minister will not make much headway with that.

It is no easy matter to deal with the discussion on the Budget, a discussion which has lasted for almost three weeks, because most of the speeches, including the last, were misrepresentations of fact, wrong figures, and so on. Having given wrong figures in support of an argument, the speakers went on then to condemn the Government and I am afraid that most of my time now will go on correcting the figures quoted by Opposition Deputies in this debate.

Before I come to the figures, I want to deal with a few points that were made. On the day the Budget was introduced, Deputy Sweetman said there was no proper incentive in the Budget. Deputy Corish said there was no real incentive to industry with a view to creating new employment or maintaining existing employment. From the point of view of incentive in relation to industry, we must have regard to the fact that any expansion in industry must be organised with a view to export. The home market is largely supplied with the industries we have. Bearing that in mind, I do not know what better incentive could be given than the 100 per cent. tax relief. We cannot give more than 100 per cent. We have given all we can, as far as that is concerned.

We have also adopted the recommendations of the Committee of Inquiry into Industrial Taxation in full. That Committee made many recommendations and it took three or four years to implement them all. But they have all been implemented. I announced in the Budget also that we were accepting the recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. As Deputies are aware, that committee was set up specifically to help industries to equip themselves for competition in the Common Market.

Apart from the relief of export tax, income tax has been lowered generally in the past four or five years, and lowered substantially. It is lower now than it was at any time in the past 20 years, and it compares very favourably with international standards. If Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Corish were concerned about incentives for the development of industry, we have gone along way already to encourage industry.

As far as agriculture is concerned, we have provided £2,500,000 in the Budget for the relief of agriculture. That means that, in the present financial year, £32,500,000 have been provided; in other words, over five per cent. of the national income. I do not want to go into the matter again as to why this relief of rates was given. I explained that very fully in the Budget Statement.

The Book of Estimates will show many other instances of relief for and encouragement of industry. In the non-voted capital services, apart from the Estimates, about £6,000,000 will be spent this year on industrial and agricultural credit. Deputy Sweetman referred to the £100,000 incentives for industry to fit them for the Common Market.

Incentives for retooling.

For equipping them for the Common Market. Deputy Sweetman knows that any relief in income tax falls very lightly in the first year. If I gave an estimate that it will cost £100,000 this year, that means that it will cost more in the second and third years. The estimate of the Revenue Commissioners is that, when it comes into full operation, it will cost about £530,000.

Then the Minister is doing what the Taoiseach called mortgaging the future. Is that it?

I do not know what the Taoiseach said about mortgaging the future. I am dealing with the point made by Deputy Sweetman. Deputy Sweetman knows very well that the sum of £100,000 this year will grow into a very much bigger sum in two or three years' time.

It was also stated that out of the £10,000,000 increase in taxation this year only £1,000,000 was given to social welfare. I read a report of a public meeting at which Deputy Mullen was present. The same statement was made there and Deputy Mullen did not correct it or explain the figures. They put a very different complexion on the position. The £10,000,000 is fairly correct. The buoyancy in tax rates was calculated to bring in £6.1 millions more. Additional taxes introduced will bring in £3.8 millions. That is £9.9 millions, which is near enough to £10,000,000. Again, there were certain tax reliefs on entertainments generally—I shall deal with these later on—amounting to £.6 million.

We had, as Deputies are aware, an estimate of £1.08 millions for social welfare and Public Service pensions £.45 million and we had £2.5 millions for the farmers. These are the new reliefs that were mentioned in the Budget and they amount to £4,000,000 or a little more. The balance of £5.3 millions is more than offset by various figures that are higher than last year. The service of public debt is £3½ million higher than it was last year and the educational group of Estimates are £2½ million higher. Social Welfare and Health, apart from the new proposals, will cost another £1½ million so that that additional taxation is more than absorbed without mentioning the £5½ million increases in pay for public servants generally.

Another charge that has increased very much in the last three or four years is the sinking fund of the national debt. I do not want to go back over the last 20 years individually but if you will take five-year periods you will get an idea of the increases in this regard. For the five years ended 31st March, the amount effectively allocated as sinking fund for national debt was only £100,000. For the next five years the total was £700,000. From 1952 to 1957 it was £18,000,000 for the five years and for the last five years it was £40.7 million. The amount now provided annually for sinking fund in addition to the interest paid on national loans and national debt is about £10 million a year. That is the very appreciable sum that has to be provided.

The general criticism that was made against this Budget, and indeed it was made by the last speaker, Deputy O'Higgins, was that it was a humdrum or unimaginative Budget. Deputy Norton was the first to make that point. I do not know if he set a headline but many members of the Labour Party and of Fine Gael made the same point. It is a vague sort of criticism which is not easy to deal with. Deputy Norton did not think we should expect him to give an explanation of what he meant by that. It has no particular meaning but it does impress the uninitiated and that suits Deputy Norton's style.

When did Ministers for Finance show imagination in Budgets? I do not think there was much imagination shown by Deputy McGilligan or Deputy Sweetman in the Budgets they brought in. We could easily have said that these were unimaginative if we did not say worse about them but it would have been a mild criticism. If you take it as meaning want of imagination then Deputy Sweetman certainly showed some lack of imagination in the 1956 Budget when he provided for what he thought were all the increases that were required and all the money that was necessary to cover the expenditure for that year and still fell short of his estimate by almost £6 million. In 1957 I showed the same lack of imagination. I had imagination enough to see that the position was very bad, that the Coalition had left this country in such a state that it required drastic measures to get a balanced Budget. I had to find £11,000,000, and I found it by cutting out the food subsidies and by putting on extra taxation. By doing that I thought I would meet the gap that the Coalition had left behind, but my imagination was not good enough to fully assess the state to which this country had sunk under Coalition. I was actually £5.9 million short. That was lack of imagination on my part.

It was just stupidity.

It may have been stupidity but Deputy Sweetman made the same mistake in 1956. He did not realise the depths to which the country had sunk and when he was bringing in his estimate he was £5.9 million short. I found £11,000,000 extra the following year to fill the gap but I was still £5.9 million out.

Why not compare like with like? What about the special import levies? Add the two of them and you will see where you are.

They were there each year.

But you changed them.

After that.

Before that.

I did not see any merit in having a deficit in the Budget and at the same time putting the special import levies aside into a capital fund. I said that we should put the import levies into ordinary revenue and balance the Budget and that is what we did.

Compare the two and they are not what you mentioned.

I will come back to that again. Some Deputies, and amongst them Deputy John Costello with whose speech I have no fault to find because he always seems fair, argued that we had enough without additional taxation to meet the expenditure for this coming year. If they believe that they are more optimistic than I am about this coming year. I did base my estimates on a combination of the economic growth of the last three or four years. As I explained in my Budget Statement that economic growth has been phenomenal over the last three or four years. I estimated that it would continue for another year and it was on that estimate that I put so much on the revenue side and so much on the expenditure side and found that extra taxation was needed.

If I am wrong and if Deputy Costello and the others are right I will be very glad. The Government will receive that news with the joy and pride to which they are entitled if we are able to have increased revenue without increases in taxation because that is what the Deputies on the other side have inferred. If there is a surplus it will go to the extinguishing of the national debt.

Deputy Sweetman, on 3rd May, said that he would have liked to have heard what the anticipations were in relation to the year ahead. I dealt with that fairly fully in my Budget speech in columns 1563 to 1565 and I dealt with it to a much larger extent in the Seanad during the debate on the Central Fund Bill. I do not intend, therefore, to go into the matter fully again. I did refer there to the eighth round of increases. I said that, in my opinion, the eighth round was somewhat premature. I said I expected that productivity would catch up with the wage increase and that, if so, everything would be all right and there would be no increase in costs. There has been a certain small increase in costs so far but it might stay at that.

I do not think there is any hope that costs will be reduced. If productivity, on the other hand, does not catch up, then the only result can be increasing costs. I do not want to go into the question fully again because I dealt with it very fully in that Seanad debate.

On 3rd May, Deputy Sweetman also referred to savings. He referred to the need for further incentives to savings, investments and the attraction of foreign capital. He mentioned the £25 small savings allowance and comments by the Capital Investment Advisory Committee. That report was signed in June, 1958. In November, 1958, the Government presented their Programme for Economic Expansion to the Oireachtas. Deputy T.F. O'Higgins spoke about running away from that programme: I do not know in what respect. I am not aware when we ran away from it. I think we followed it faithfully and successfully.

The importance of encouraging enterprise and savings is stressed in the White Paper. The lines of Government policy in the matter are clearly laid down in the very first chapter, paragraphs 10 and 11, special mention being made of the aim of reducing direct taxation as a tonic to the economy, a stimulus to personal and corporate saving and an encouragement both to native and foreign enterprise to undertake new projects.

At that particular time, or around that time, when I expressed the view here in the Dáil that we should try to reduce direct taxation as far as possible, I had the support of Deputy Sweetman. Since that time, further reliefs have been given in taxation such as the Shannon Free Airport tax relief, 1958. A relief was given on industrial buildings, including hotels—depreciation allowances—and extension of exports tax reliefs in 1959 and again in 1960; tax relief in respect of recruitment and training of staffs, 1959; extension of mining reliefs, 1961, and extension of reliefs under Section 7 of the Finance Act, 1932, in 1960.

Therefore, no Budget has been introduced since 1957 in which some relief has not been given in that direction. General incentives to enterprise and savings would, I think, be covered by a reduction in the standard rate of income tax in 1959 and 1961. There was an extention of earned income relief in 1959 and also in 1961. There was a reduction in surtax in 1959 and 1961. Reliefs were given in death duties in 1960 and 1961 and savings deposit relief was extended in 1960.

Every Finance Act since 1958 has contained new incentive measures or extensions of existing ones. Over the past four years, the reliefs which have been given in direct taxation are costing the Exchequer £5½ million a year. I might perhaps digress now at that particular point. Deputy M. J. O'Higgins made a long speech just before I got up to reply. He quoted extracts from speeches made by this Party, when in Opposition, to the effect that the taxes imposed by the Government were as large as should be imposed and that there should be no further imposition of taxation.

I produced figures here some time ago, and I think I could produce them again, to show that if all the taxes were taken that were imposed since 1957 and all the reliefs of taxation were put against them, it would be seen that there was no increase of any magnitude. This year may have made a difference.

The money that was not taken from people by way of income tax remained in their hands. It enabled manufacturers, traders and the public at large to make further investments. It is note-worthy that monetary savings, after adjustments of stocks, and so on, increased by £11.9 million in 1960 and by a further £16 million in 1961. The figures would show that there is a gradual increase every year in the amount that is put aside as public savings in State investments.

Deputy Corish said that it is interesting to note that £20 million per annum is paid as interest on the national debt which, as a matter of fact, is, I think, a bit small. However, in this particular context, the amount does not matter. I want to deal with what he said about it. He said we are prepared to pay that sort of money to banks and to people who dabble in money while all we can afford for social welfare benefits is £27 million. That is a type of demagogic approach to a matter of this kind.

I was rather surprised that a leader of a Party should make such an irresponsible statement as to refer to the interest that is paid on our borrowings as money paid to banks and people who dabble in money. A considerable portion of the money is paid to small investors. There is the Post Office Savings Bank. There are Savings Certificates. Even in the national loans, a very large number of people make small subscriptions. I think the figures are published in answer to questions here in the Dáil. After every national loan is completed, it will be found that a very large proportion of the national loan comes in in small subscriptions. Deputy Corish infers that we should not bother about those people; that we should take their money and give them no interest. That would be a very unfair thing to do whether it is a bank or a small person.

We have to keep up the reputation of the State that we will pay our way. If we make a contract to take money from a person at a certain rate of interest we must pay that rate of interest. There is no use in complaining that we are wasting a lot of money by paying interest to banks and to people who dabble in money. We have made the contract with the people and we must stick to it. If we did not do that we would not get the money—that is all and who would suffer by it? Those who would suffer would be people in receipt of social welfare benefits, the working population, and so on. They would suffer because there would be no development in this country. There would be no chance of developing the country in any way— by way of helping industries, by way of helping agriculture, by way of the development of forestry, fisheries, turf development and all these other matters where money is used up. Neither would there be any money for housing, for sanitary services, for water supplies for schools, for hospitals or for anything else.

It is all very well for Deputy Corish to try to make a smart point against the Government to the effect that they are quite prepared to throw money into the banks and into the hands of people who dabble in money but that they will not give any towards social welfare. Deputy Corish should have some regard for the good name and for the future of this country, if we are to make any progress at all.

Deputy Sweetman on 3rd May also said that I, in reply to him on 29th March, acknowledged that in 1962 central taxation had taken a greater proportion of the gross national product than in any year since 1953. That answer, by the way, was given by the Taoiseach but I am not finding fault with the Deputy for that mistake. That answer did not deal with Budgetary taxation. It was an international figure as far as I can remember but it included such things as social insurance contributions, surplus on Post Office operations, for instance, wireless licence and it even included levies paid under the Dairy Produce Act and motor vehicle duties.

It included them all the years down.

They were all included but if the Budgetary taxation is taken, then the figure would remain almost constant back as far as eight or ten years. In the last year that Deputy Sweetman was in control it was 16.8 per cent. In 1961-62 it was 16.9 per cent. In the meantime it went down until it was at its lowest at 16 per cent. Now it is up to 16.9 per cent. It must be remembered that the amount of taxes that it is estimated came in in 1961-1962 came in because of the buoyancy of the revenue. It came in because conditions were better in this country. People were able to pay more income tax. They were able to pay more tobacco tax, more beer and petrol tax. It was a criterion of the advance in the economy that the amount had gone up.

I pointed out in my Financial Statement that the proportion of gross national product at market prices absorbed by all taxation, central and local, is about 22 per cent., which is not high by international standards. Deputy Corish at column 1636 of the Official Report of 10th April said:

National production, we are told, has increased to a considerable extent. I think we are entitled to ask the Government to devote to social welfare a reasonable percentage of the tax revenue. They have not done that since they came into power in 1957.

Deputy Norton spoke on much the same lines on 11th April. Expenditure on social welfare, in the five years up to and including 1961-62, was £128.2 million. That is 23.1 per cent, of the tax revenue. One year may vary with another. For one thing tax revenue has been increasing substantially in the past few years. We may not in every year catch up on the percentage devoted to social welfare. For that reason I am taking that five years. In the previous five years it was 22.8 per cent. Tax revenue was up in the last five years. It was 23.1 per cent. against 22.8 per cent.

The International Labour Office issued a publication in relation to the cost of social security. This publication shows that the central Government here contributes 71.9 per cent, of all social welfare payments. We are by far the highest in that respect in Europe. Denmark is next with 58.7 per cent., a long way behind us. The next one is Sweden with 54.9 per cent. Great Britain is 26.6 per cent, and the Common Market countries put together have 13.4 per cent., so that on that basis we have nothing to be ashamed of. According to this publication, the percentage of social welfare expenditure as a proportion of the national income in Ireland in 1959 was very high, 6.6 per cent. It was 5.4 per cent. in the United Kingdom. If you take health as well as social welfare, then the British figure would be higher than ours. It would be 12.1 per cent. and we would be 11.5 per cent.

Of course, Deputies referred to the amount we are providing for social welfare as £1 million but, like another figure referred to before, £1 million in the first year means a good deal more in the second year. As a matter of fact, it will be £2.1 million in the second year. As a matter of fact, as compared with the net additional taxation this year, £2.45 million in a full year, it will be seen that the extra taxes were almost all necessary to provide for the social welfare expenditure if not this year at least next year.

That does take the argument from the Labour Deputies who made the point that if half of this money had been for social welfare they would have voted for it. Of course, we know they had no notion of voting for it but they made that excuse. Deputy Corish defended his action when he was Minister for Social Welfare for three years in providing a lone 2/6 for the old age pensioners as compared with the 6/- provided by this Government up to now and the 2/6 added which will make it 8/6. He defended that because of the cost of living. An analysis of that would be a very useful and instructive lesson for Deputy Corish and the Labour Party.

In six years we provided 12/6.

The Deputy is wrong.

The Deputy is right.

When Deputy Rooney was talking last night, he transferred 2/6 to your side.

Nonsense.

Deputy Dillon told us. a few days ago that if you repeat a lie often enough people will begin to believe it.

The figures are there.

Let us take the cost of living.

Come back to the figures first.

From 1954 to 1957 the cost of living went up by 11 points. I am taking February in each case because it was around February that each Government came in. That is 9 per cent. Deputy Corish gave them 2/6 in the three years, which is 11.5 per cent. He barely covered the three years he was there, which proved he was quite satisfied with how the old age pensioners were treated by Fianna Fáil before he came in. Even if he could not have done something better for them, he should have tried to do something better but, of course, he had Fine Gael to deal with and we know the reputation of Fine Gael in regard to the old age pensioners. The only thing they ever did was to take 1/- off them.

To pay for your civil war.

To pay for the amount of destruction you did.

Deputy Dillon says we took 1/- off the pensioners to pay for the Civil war.

I was not in Parliament then. That is the fact of it.

He sits there unashamed.

The time they were robbing the banks. The time they did not pay the children.

The Minister must be allowed to continue.

As I say, Deputy Corish gave them 2/6 during the whole of that three years. We came along and the cost of living went up from February, 1957, to March, 1962, by 19 points, which is 14 per cent. We gave the pensioners 6/- so far which is 25 per cent., and we are giving them 2/6 now raising the pensions by 35 per: cent. in all. Deputy Corish referred to this half crown as miserable. What should we call Deputy Corish's performance over three years when he gave a total of 2/6?

They had their food cheaper.

I am giving the percentage increase in the cost of living during the relevant period and my figure includes the food subsidies.

I do not dispute the Minister's figures for the cost of living but the point I made on Tuesday was that tea, bread, butter and sugar were infinitely cheaper at that time.

However, we have more than the old age pensioners now to deal with. There are the unemployment assistance people. Deputy Corish gave them nothing in his three years. Neither did Deputy Norton. What grudge had the two Labour Ministers against the unemployment assistance people? Deputy Corish is talking about the miserable half crown but what about his fourpence halfpenny? How does he describe nothing for unemployment assistance? You would have to get a spurious coin to describe nothing.

I left that to the Minister.

Order. The Minister must be allowed to conclude the debate.

They are getting it.

Deputy Corry got a shock when he was not put on this Cabinet.

The buckshee lawyer.

I know Deputy Corish had a hard Government to deal with. He had Fine Gael who had no great sympathy for the old age pensioners until we came into office and showed him. Deputy Dillon said the Labour Party were as mute as mice but when they are dealing with Fianna Fáil they are like lions. They attack us every time and I would not mind if they had the courage to stand up to Fine Gael and say: "Give us 5/- or out you go".

The Minister is comparing them with Deputy Sherwin.

I said no such thing. Look at the Official Report. Get the Official Report.

Do not mind the Official Report. I am talking about the newspaper.

It is a lie.

Did you hear the Deputy use the word "lie" ?

I cannot hear the Minister. These continuous interruptions must cease.

The Deputy used the word "lie".

Do not be interrupting.

Go back to, West Limerick and explain the penny and the farthing.

The Deputies over there were given six days to talk but they will not listen to me because they hate the truth.

Deputy Ó Briain is as bad. He will not listen to the Minister either.

Deputy Ryan and Deputy Rooney said we should have given 5/- to the old age pensioners. Imagine that, coming from Fine Gael Deputies. But, like the Labour Party, they believe in their hearts that we can do better than they did because they know we can, that we do and that we shall. Consequently they are always asking us to do better.

Was that the 5/- Deputy Sherwin was talking about.

I am only responsible for what I said in the Dáil.

Mr. Donnellan

Five bob.

It gets him under the skin obviously.

The buckshee lawyer again.

Some Deputies said we gave too much to the farmers. Some said we should not have taken the duty off the cinemas and the dancehalls while others said they would have done the same if they were here. Deputy Corish said we voted against the increased taxation in 1956 when he provided something extra for social welfare, Deputy Sweetman at that time put 5d. a packet on cigarettes. I reckon I will get £1,700,000 on the twopence extra I put on cigarettes. Accordingly he must have expected £3,500,000. Of that, Deputy Corish took only £300,000 for social welfare, I think we had much more reason to vote against that Budget then than the Labour Party have to vote against us now.

But you voted against us.

I am not sure. Maybe we did. The Labour Party said we should not have taken the tax off cinemas.

No, off the dancehalls.

The dancehalls then. The tax on the cinemas amounted to £800,000 and on the dancehalls £80,000. I had a deputation from a labour union who represented cinema employees. They said these employees were people who had worked in the cinemas all their lives and whose parents had worked there before them. They said they were not fitted for other work and consequently were facing unemployment. They made, a strong appeal to have the tax taken off the cinemas. The proprietors also came and I agreed first of all to halve the tax. They said: "Could you not do anything better," to which I replied: "Very well. I shall take it off entirely at the end of six months." I realised, of course, that it was finality for them. I listened to them very sympathetically but I notice I do not get very much support here from the Labour Party. Not a single member of that Party said I was right to take that tax off.

I did and a good many more.

I got an appeal from the dancehall people too. It was not from a union, but, the people who came to me pointed out that several people in the catering business and in the musician business would suffer because the dancehalls were doing, very badly. I know that to be so because the tax receipts from dancehalls have been going down very rapidly. I think there was something in what those concerned told me because several people in the catering business and in the musician business depend on the success of the dancehalls. That apparently does not appeal to the Labour Party who said I should not have taken that tax off. I disagree with that. Apart from that, if, we take the tax off the cinemas, as we intend to, it would; be entirely uneconomic to have a staff going around to the dances. They would have no other duties because there would be no other entertainments tax left. Everyone knows that dances are held at night and the staff would have to go around collecting the tax. Deputy Sherwin gave a very good description——

Butter him up now.

The Deputy should have been here.

He split the difference.

I am saying he gave a very good description on that point. I have always thought it a most distasteful task for any revenue officer to have to go into a dance hall and ask people to show him their tickets. I have already said it would be uneconomic. It is time that it should go.

Had Miss Morris's letter anything to do, with it—the, letter she wrote to the Fianna Fáil organisation?

I will tell the Deputy what I will do. I will sell him the income from dances for the next five years for £5. Will he buy it?

Miss Morris and all.

I notice the Minister says "for the next five years." What about the past five years ?

Deputy Dillon has the type of mind——

What about the past five years?

——that cannot imagine doing a thing like that, unless he is paid for it.

I have Miss Morris's letter.

Deputies should allow the Minister to conclude.

I must be doing very well——

Mr. Donnellan

No one could do better.

Ask Miss Morris.

I must be doing well because they cannot listen. The point is being made that we gave benefits to the big farmers and not to the small farmers. Deputy Blowick has, said that and even more accurate people than Deputy Blowick have made that statement. We gave exactly the same to them all. We gave exactly the same relief to the small farmer as to the big farmer. In other words, we said: "You would have got your bill for rates but we are giving 25 per cent. off all round."

That is not so.

It is so.

Up to £20 valuation, it is not so.

It is so. I must lose time now explaining this to Deputy Donegan. They are now paying 40 per cent. of the rate up to £20 valuation. We have taken off 10. Is ten not a quarter of 40?

Correct, but you are taking 10 off 100.

Off 40.

It is one-tenth—ten per cent.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Sweetman says I am right.

I said you were wrong.

We are taking 10 off 40.

You are not.

You are taking 10 per cent, off the rate.

They are paying only 40 per cent. We are taking 10 per cent. off but they are paying only 40 per cent.

Ten per cent, off the rate.

This may be another game but Deputies may take my word for it, no matter how stupid they want to be, that we are taking 25 per cent. off the amount of rates that would otherwise be payable.

We are.

You are queer mathematicians over there.

Deputies should allow the Minister to make his speech.

The Minister does not seem to understand what he has given.

A Deputy over there said that the small farmer would be relieved of 7d. per week. He is paying 1/9 per week and 1/9 per week for rates is not very much on any small farmer. If we relieve him of £7 a year, he will pay £21, and that is a quarter in every case, no matter what case you take.

Deputy Cosgrave, and Deputy Dillon, too, said that the increase in the price of tobacco and beer would be taken to a great extent from the old age pensioners. According to Deputy Corish, the old age pensioner gets a miserable 2/6, but that is as much as Deputy Corish himself ever gave them.

I left them with cheaper food.

They were to get 5/-.

According to Deputy Sherwin.

If Deputy Dillon wants the old age pensioner to use that money on the increased beer tax, he must drink 30 pints per week which would cost 52/6. How can he do that? We are told that this will be a big impost on the beer drinker and that it will reduce the consumption of beer. Perhaps it will, but I want to say that since the last increase in the beer tax, the trade have put 5d. on the pint. We are putting Id. on now. It is time for us to step in. They got 5d. Let us take spirits. Since the last increase on spirits, the trade has put 10d. a glass on spirits. We put 2d. on it and it cannot be said we are taking too big a share.

Let us come now to the Common Market which may be less controversial. The Government are attacked by Fine Gael and Labour because we have not said enough about the Common Market. I do not know what all this talk is that we are not giving enough information about the Common Market. We are being put in a position as if we are trying to conceal something. What is the game? Surely to goodness, the Taoiseach has given assurance after assurance that nothing is being concealed. Why should there be? Of course if any Deputy wants to take the sure line about the Common Market, if anything goes wrong, he can say afterwards that he knew it and asked questions, but if it goes right, he will say nothing more about it.

Deputy Tully said that 25 per cent. of our labour force will be out of work, if we loin the Common Market. He said that Ministers should tell the people that. We are not telling them—

The CIO said 33? per cent.

I do not care what they say. I will tell the Deputy what I am going to say. Deputy Tully says 25 per cent. Why should Ministers tell the people something they do not themselves believe?

They do not know.

We have confidence in the workers of this country and in the employers, and what is much more important, during the past three or four years, they have had confidence in the country themselves.

They are showing that by the way they leave it.

Many industries will have to reorganise and try to be ready so far as they can to compete. I am sure that if they take steps to equip themselves, they will be able to compete. We are prepared to help them in every way to equip themselves for the Common Market. I know we can face it. I have always said, about agriculture on one side, that the farmers of this country are both industrious and intelligent. When I was Minister for Agriculture, I spent many a holiday on the Continent, in the rural areas of six or seven countries. I never saw farmers working any harder than the farmers work here, and I did not see any more intelligence than I saw here.

I believe the Common Market will be a big market and a fairly constant market. Perhaps prices will not be a whole lot better for some commodities but at least it will be a constant market for all we produce. So I think that on the agricultural side we will be better off than we are at the moment.

Mr. Donnellan

That would be no harm.

On the industrial side, since 1932, we adopted what Fine Gael sneeringly referred to as self-sufficiency and industries have been built up and now they are in the export market. The same industries were built up on the home market first where they got experience, had their men trained and eventually they were in a position to go into the foreign market. If, for instance, you take the textile, clothing and footwear groups, they increased their exports in the past four years from £7.2 million to £14.3 million. These are practically all industries built up since 1932. There were some textiles factories before that but practically all of them have been built up since 1932. They have exported mostly to England, competing against established English factories successfully. In some cases, they went into other countries where they have to get over a tariff barrier, pay a tariff as well as compete. They have done that successfully and why should they not carry on and compete also in the Common Market?

Our industrial exports have increased by 73 per cent. in the past four or five years and why not have faith in the country that they can go on? Deputy Rooney painted a very gloomy picture here. He said we were going to be completely in the hands of foreigners in a few years' time. I do not think that is going to happen.

Is the Minister finished with the Common Market?

And agricultural marketing.

Deputy McGilligan said that Fianna Fáil were against increase in wages. That of course is an assertion made by Deputy McGilligan without any proof whatever. If you take the three years from 1953 to 1956 when there was a Coalition Government, with Labour taking a prominent part in it, industrial wages went up by 15/- a week and in the past five years they went up by 45/.

What about the State employees?

I am giving the figures. They went up by 45/- since we came in. Does that not give the—I cannot say "lie" here—does not it show that Deputy McGilligan is wrong and that he was talking without any foundation whatever for the assertions he made?

That is nothing strange.

The forestry workers do not think so.

He said I had refused to give the Civil Service an increase before I came in. I did. I explained to the civil servants—they were intelligent people—the state of the country in 1957 and they accepted the fact that the Exchequer could not pay an increase during that year. They said they were prepared to wait until we had put the country on its feet, which we did and in 1958——

Do not be barefaced in telling untruths. The Minister knows that is untrue.

What is not true?

The Minister knows that is not true. The Civil Service never went into politics like that.

I am not saying they went into politics.

The Minister is trying to drag them in.

I said they accepted that I could not pay them an increase in 1957. That is all I said.

You said something else.

I said in 1958: "Now I will give you the increase"—not that I was driven to it as Deputy McGilligan tried to infer.

The Minister was pulled up. He was just chancing his arm.

We were attacked about the number of Ministers we have. We have the same number as the Coalition had, and three Parliamentary Secretaries while, they had five Parliamentary Secretaries. Of course they had Deputy Crotty as Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce as a sort of political commissar to watch Deputy Norton. When we came in, we divided that Department between two Ministers. That was not very much more expensive than having a Parliamentary Secretary——

You put him there to see that he had no function.

We have the two Ministers and we cannot be attacked because, as I say, we have the same number of Ministers and fewer Parliamentary Secretaries.

You have less brains, no matter how it goes.

You must have a great fear of Deputy Crotty.

Anytime you try to effect an economy, you have appeals from Deputies, sometimes our own Deputies, not to effect them. Even if you want to close a police barracks, Deputies and county councillors ask you to leave the police barracks there because the traders want it and so on. It is not easy—not to speak of closing branch railway lines where they are not paying their way.

You are very good at that.

You have a very good record for that.

Yes, there was a good job done there and the people are just as well off.

You rooted up more lines in the past five years than had been rooted up in the past five centuries.

I was going to deal with the price of milk.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Donnellan

Do.

I want Deputy Dillon to read Deputy Moher's speech and then I shall deal with the matter.

Let us hear it now.

Deputy Ó Briain will not go home happy unless you do.

How much are you going to give to the dairy farmers ?

Not 1/-, anyway.

I listened to Deputy Flanagan's speech, which was not a very intelligent one. Just give me a chance. I am very sorry to have to inform the Dáil that I cannot deal with any constructive suggestion because there were no constructive suggestions. There were no constructive suggestions made by Fine Gael speakers or by Labour speakers. Therefore, I have none to deal with.

And you got none from Fianna Fáil.

Do not forget Deputy Sherwin.

As a matter of fact——

I spoke about politics. I elaborated on your lie business.

Certainly there is a coalition there still of Fine Gael and Labour in destructive criticism. That is all it is. I shall finish up by talking about employment, unemployment and emigration. I want Fine Gael Deputies to listen very carefully because they are misinformed on some of the figures they gave—I think purposely misinformed. For instance, when the figures indicate that emigration has gone down, Fine Gael say it has not gone down. People do not make that mistake, unless they would like it to be true.

Every Fine Gael speaker would like that to be true and therefore they make that allegation. Now it is a pity they would not be glad to hear that things are better than they say. They are not glad. They do not want to hear. There was not one speaker from either Party who spoke about unemployment. Fine Gael and Labour do not talk about it.

They did.

Because it was 93,000 and now it is 58,000.

And a quarter of a million in Birmingham.

Do not go back so far.

(Interruptions.)

93,000 was the figure.

The Minister might be allowed make his, speech without these interruptions.

Now I shall deal with emigration.

What about the 100,000 new jobs?

I can make my own speech and I can try to instruct Fine Gael in the truth. Deputy Flanagan tries to instruct them in what is not true.

I would like to hear about the 100,000 new jobs.

The Statistics Office will not give us figures for emigration, except at census time, because they say they are not sure. The reason is that there are three ways in which people leave the country and come back—by sea, air and land—and they have no figures for the land. However, if you take the figures I shall give, you have the figures of the trend. To have the trend is certainly a useful thing. These are the figures misquoted by Fine Gael, because they have no regard for the truth. They are fond of round figures.

I am not too clear on this. Would the Minister tell us how you emigrate by land?

(Interruptions.)

They cross the Border and then they emigrate. They are not counted going across the Border and we have no means of counting them by sea. The Border was confirmed by your predecessors in 1925.

With the support of some of the Labour people.

What did the Minister for Health say? He will not repeat it?

According to these figures, the number of people going out by sea and air in 1954, 1955 and 1956 was 138,000. If any innocent person came in here and listened to the Fine Gael speakers, he would think nobody went out during those years, that they all went out after that. That is an average of 46,000 per year. In 1957, we had the worst year of all, when 60,500 went out. Most of them went out in January and February. I want to say this——

The Minister never misses chancing his arm.

I said "I want to say this." There is heavy emigration always during those two months, but it was inordinately big during that year. They were on their way out when we came to office. Take the next three years, 1958, 1959 and 1960. There was an average of 41,000 against your 46,000.

58,000, 72,000 and 67,000 registered for national insurance in each of those three years.

I am talking about those who went out. The Deputy made a long speech here and I do not think I interrupted him.

Because he was telling the truth.

Why do you not want to hear the truth? From 1959 to 1960, there was an average of 41,000 and in 1961, it was 26,800.

And 67,000 sought work in England?

(Interruptions.)

The number who went out by sea and air was 26,800. Deputy Dillon would rather believe the other figure.

There it is.

Deputy Dillon would rather have that figure than my figure. Deputy Dillon is not interested in emigration; he is interested in Fine Gael propaganda.

I am interested in the facts, and 67,000 Irish people sought work in England in that year.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Donegan should cease interrupting and so should other Deputies, if they want to remain until the end of the proceedings.

If we take the whole period, including 1957, with the big number that went out in that year, the average is 41,000, which is much lower than the Coalition's average. On the employment figures, Deputy M. J. O'Higgins said that 60,000 went out of employment since 1957. I said "Not so much." He said "About 50,000," but there are 17,000 fewer in employment. If you take the two tables, Table 7 and Table 16—the agricultural table and the non-agricultural table—you will find that from 1954 to 1957, it went down by 49,000 and from 1957 to 1961 by 17,000, a much more favourable figure.

I should like to analyse this a little further. From 1960 to 1961, the number in employment in industry and so on went up by 10,000. The number of members of farmers' families went up by 5,000. It was the first time this went up. Anybody not too prejudiced will agree that that is a very good trend. I hope it is a trend. Maybe it is only for a year. I may be wrong and it may go down again next year.

What about the hire of agricultural workers?

I am coming to that. Permanent employees went down by 2,600 and temporary employees by 5,000. My own experience about temporary employees is that they are leaving because it is not possible for a man to live unless he has a full-time job. A man cannot live on a few days' work a year. I have been telling farmers that for a long time. You cannot expect to have labour available when you want them and let them go when you are done with them. They must employ their men full-time or they will not have them. The net position is that there is a reduction of 4,000 in those employed in agriculture, forestry and fisheries against an increase of 10,000 on the industrial side. That is an increase in employment of 6,000. There has not been an increase since 1954.

We left office in 1954 and the Coalition came in. When the Census was taken in that April, employment had gone up by 3,000, between agricultural and non-agricultural. As I said, for the three years the Coalition were there, the figure went down by 49,000 and in our three years by 17,000. Deputy Rooney called this 50,000. Deputy Rooney likes round figures. I have rarely met a man who can murder figures as well as Deputy Rooney. Somebody said that employment in industry is no higher now than it was in 1955. It is higher. It is very interesting to look at the figures for employment in industry in 1953 and down along to 1961. It was improving from 1953 to 1955—155, 156 and 158; there was a big drop in 1956, 150; it remained static at that until 1958, and then it began to move upwards again. Now it is at 167.5. The fact is that there was an increase in employment at the beginning of 1954 and it took us eight years to get back to that state again. This year again, we have an increase. It gives you an idea of the destruction done by the Coalition Government in this country during three years of office.

At an earlier stage I used the word "stupid" in relation to the Minister for Finance. That was a perfectly incorrect word and I wish to withdraw it. He is far too politically astute to be stupid. The correct words would have been "politically dishonest".

If the Deputy can dispute any figure I gave, I shall apologise— any single figure I gave.

If he disproves any single figure, I shall apologise.

Unrevised.

I never do revise them.

Somebody does it for the Minister.

The only figure I am in doubt about is the five shillings of Deputy Sherwin.

The Deputy is a liar. I repeat it.

Surely the Chair heard that time or do you deliberately not hear?

The Chair is on its feet—I am about to put the question.

Then I may say anything once the Chair is on its feet.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá: 70; Níl: 64.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Seamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Galvin, John.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sheridan, Joseph.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Casey, Seán.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Govemey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, Michael P.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
  • O'Keeffe, James.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tierney, Patrick.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:— Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Tully.
Question declared carried.
Resolutions 1 to 7 reported and agreed to.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.35 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 10th May, 1962.
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