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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jun 1962

Vol. 196 No. 1

Finance Bill, 1962—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. At the outset I wish to refer to a change in taxation which has become necessary and which will involve an amendment of this Bill. This change is necessitated by the decision, announced by the Minister for Agriculture on 28 May, to arrange for an increase of 1d. a gallon in the price of creamery milk as from 1 June. It was made clear in the official announcement that the increase would be met by payments from the Exchequer and that the price of butter and other milk products to the consumer would not be changed.

The cost of raising, by a penny a gallon, the price paid for milk supplied to creameries is estimated at £1.3 million for a full year. To enable the Exchequer to meet this additional current charge, arrangements must be made to raise additional revenue. Deliberately to run a serious risk of unbalancing the Budget would be most undesirable in present economic circumstances. The Government consider it essential to the continued steady growth of the economy that a sound budgetary policy be maintained. They have, therefore, made an Order under the Imposition of Duties Act imposing an additional duty on tobacco equivalent to 1d. on the packet of 20 cigarettes; hard-pressed pipe tobacco will not be affected. The extra duty will come into force from 12 o'clock tonight.

The revenue from this extra duty will not fully cover the cost of the increase in the price of milk. It will, however, go most of the way. On a full year's basis, I expect the duty to bring in £800,000. In the current financial year, the comparison will be between payments to creameries of approximately £1,000,000 and increased revenue of approximately £600,000. The difference is such as can, without undue risk, be assigned to the provision made in the Budget for variations from the original budgetary estimates.

This extra duty on tobacco is, I believe, the least objectionable way of securing the increase in revenue needed to finance the milk price increase and maintain a balanced Budget.

I will propose in due course an amendment to the Finance Bill so as effectively to confirm the increased duty now imposed.

I should like now to refer to the text of the Finance Bill as already circulated. This year's Bill is shorter and less complex than those of recent years. Its provisions have been explained in the memorandum which was circulated with the text of the Bill and it is hardly necessary, therefore, to give a detailed account of each of the sections in it. Most of the sections are, of course, concerned with implementing proposals announced in the Financial Statement.

Part I of the Bill deals with income tax. There are only two sections in it. One of these is the usual charging section which imposes income tax and sur-tax for the current year at the same rates as were in force last year. The other enables interest on any security issued by The Agricultural Credit Corporation, Limited., to be paid without deduction of income tax.

Part II deals with customs and exise duties. Sections 3, 4 and 5 cover the Budget increases in the duties on beer, spirits and tobacco. Sections 6, 7, 8 and 9 implement the proposals to relieve entertainments duty, to waive small amounts of and abolish the minimum charge of customs duty and to reduce road tax on farmers' tractors. The remaining section in this part of the Bill confirms an Order made under the Imposition of Duties Act, 1957, reducing the rate of duty on used omnibuses.

Two of the four sections in Part III of the Bill follow on recommendations made by the Committee on Industrial Organisation, namely, Sections 11 and 13. The first of these doubles the existing rates of initial allowance in respect of capital expenditure on machinery or plant and on industrial buildings. The other is concerned with the case in which two or more trading companies establish a new company to carry on a joint enterprise. It provides tax relief for payments by any of the promoting companies to make good trading losses of the joint company.

As to the other two sections in this Part of the Bill, Section 12 provides for the exemption from tax of interest on any securities, in the nature of tax reserve certificates, which are issued for use in payment of income tax, sur-tax or corporation profits tax. It is hoped to have the securities available within the current year. Section 14 provides for the charging of interest on tax paid in arrear.

Part IV of the Bill deals with miscellaneous items. The usual provision in regard to the Capital Services Redemption Account appears at Section 15. Section 16 makes legislative arrangements arising from the termination of the Local Taxation Account as already announced.

The corporation profits tax exemption in favour of public utility concerns, building societies and the Agricultural Credit Corporation, Ltd., which expired on the 31st December, 1961, is being extended for another three years by Section 17.

In response to representations received, provision is made, at Section 18, for increasing from four to eight months the operative period for the stamp duty concession granted in last year's Finance Act in respect of certain dealings in Irish stocks. The main purpose of Section 19 is to provide enabling powers for the introduction of a tariff based on the Brussels Nomenclature. Two repeals are provided for in Section 20; one of these is consequent on the termination of the Local Taxation Account while the other does away with the prohibition on the sale at the same premises of both duty paid and rebated heavy hydrocarbon oil.

The two remaining sections and the schedules do not call for explanation. I shall, of course, explain any points of detail on the Committee Stage.

I must confess that the Minister, in introducing this Bill and the addendum to it, slithered very quickly and very quietly over the additional imposition he has just announced. The way in which this Government dither and change their mind from day to day seems to me most extraordinary. Some short time ago, when the announcement of the penny levy on milk was made, we in this Party made it clear that we did not think the farming community in the dairying areas, and particularly the small farmers in those areas, should be asked to suffer a diminution in their income that the levy would entail of some 10/- or £1 per week. The Government at that time persisted and insisted that they were going to collect, and thus reduce those farmers' incomes. We are glad now to note that the Government have realised their mistake and have sent the Minister for Finance in here today to implement the decision they forced—I use the word "forced" deliberately—the Minister for Agriculture to announce that the penny was to be given back in another form to those farmers.

Of course, it is quite immaterial which way the farmer receives it, but it is abundantly clear that the Government did not know what they were at some six weeks ago when they announced the levy initially and when the Minister for Agriculture was questioned on it in this House on 22nd of last month. At that time, the Minister for Agriculture and the members of the Government were going to stand to the last ditch and were not going to brook any criticism at all. Criticism there was. Criticism, inevitably, there was, because the decision was a futile and stupid decision at a time when incomes were rising all round them and when expenses were at the same time rising for the farmers, particularly the small creamery farmers.

As I say, we thought the reduction of a penny a gallon announced by the Government a month or six weeks ago was foolish, unjust and unfair and, to that extent, therefore, we are glad that the Government have now come round to our way of thinking and have made it clear that they will not go ahead with that reduction in the farmers' income which they threatened a month ago.

As regards the measure or the manner in which the amount that is required should be levied, I want to make two comments. First of all, in a Budget of this size, a Budget involving on the Explanatory Table in all £162,952,000, a Minister for Finance could well have gone through his estimates and seen whether he could have saved the amount in question without imposing additional taxation for it. I agree entirely that it would be most undersirable to go deliberately into deficit for the purpose of rectifying a mistake that was made, but out of £162 million odd—virtually £163 millions—surely the Minister for Finance could by careful examination have found sufficient to meet this amount which would have been approximately one-half of one per cent. of his total Budget figure? I suggest that that is the way in which he should have faced up to the situation rather than the way he adopted.

Apart from that, I have some doubt as to the propriety of using the Imposition of Duties Act instead of using the normal procedure of a financial resolution. The Imposition of Duties Act was primarily intended for the imposition of duties of a protective nature. I agree and concede at once to the Minister that on another occasion, where a very great number of duties was involved, I used the same Act, but that operation was not a revenue producing operation as such. The purpose of that operation was to cut down on our imports and to preserve a balance in our external payments and to reduce the volume of imports in our external trade. In the result it was clear beyond question that it did that, but it was not a revenue producing operation and this, as far as I am aware—and I speak completely subject to correction because I got no notice of the fact that the Minister was proposing to operate in this way until he stood up to speak —is the first time that the Imposition of Duties Act has been used solely for revenue purposes. Let there not be any misunderstanding. The Minister gave to me this morning the customary notice that is given, I think, to ex-Ministers for Finance, that he was proposing a change, but the method of the change was not known to me until he stood up.

I think it is the wrong way of doing it. I think revenue producing duties should be brought into this House by the proper procedure of a financial resolution and that to use the Imposition of Duties Order for a revenue, and solely a revenue, duty is both an anachronism and a breach of the custom and of the spirit of the Standing Orders, if not of their letter.

We are always correctly accustomed to look through Finance Acts to see where various revenue taxation is imposed. I know, and I shall refer to it otherwise in a few minutes, that the Fianna Fáil practice always has been to impose some taxes by the Finance Bills and to impose other taxes in a series of little budgets all along at different times during the year but, notwithstanding those extra additions, it has always been the practice that in relation to main money-producing taxes—beer, spirits, tobacco—to mention the three major ones in revenue, their imposition would be dealt with directly in the Finance Bill, in the wording of the Finance Bill and not merely in the confirmatory section that this will involve.

The normal procedure was perfectly open to the Minister of introducing a financial resolution and having this particular addition discussed by way of that normal financial resolution procedure. I do not know why he did it by way of the Imposition of Duties Act. No doubt he will explain that to us at a later stage but it certainly will require some very considerable explanation to get away from the fact that he has gone outside what has become set practice.

I notice that the Minister is in his Order increasing the duties by a certain amount per weight on unmanufactured tobacco. That is the normal practice but he suggests himself that it is the equivalent of a penny in the ordinary package. I should like to know whether that takes account of any margin for the trade or whether it takes account in any way of the fact that the trade will be out an additional sum until they recoup their sales.

I have noted in the explanatory portion of the memorandum attached to the Order that there is apparently a new method of providing deferment of the payment of the duty. As far as I can read that paragraph it is an addition to the arrangements there already are dealing with the deferment of tobacco duties until March of each financial year, a deferment which has been running for two years now and by virtue of which it is possible to get the duty paid in March and by so doing giving credit in last year for approximately £2½ millions which only had to be paid that year. The tobacco manufacturers had the use of that money during the year.

As far as I can read this paragraph the person who draws the tobacco from bond now has to pay the additional tax forthwith on such withdrawal and immediately he pays it he is obviously going to provide some cushion for himself from the consumer for that payment. I want to know categorically whether the rates of duty to which the Minister refers in the Order, 1/9d. in the pound on every 100 lb., is the exact equivalent of a penny on a packet of 20 cigarettes or whether it is slightly more or slightly less and whether there is a margin allowed to the trade or not. I want to know where we stand at wholesale and retail level. In relation to cigarettes, most cigarettes manufactured are distributed wholesale by the manufacturer, but the retailer's profit has to come into it too. The retailer also, because of the increasing duty, is going to have to pay to the wholesaler or the manufacturer an increased sum which he will get back in due course, but which will take him some considerable time to get back.

What is going to happen about the additional amount that is going to be caught by stocks which the manufacturers will have in hands as of to-night? The effect of this Order will be that there will be a substantial amount of tobacco held in stock by various people to which the new prices will apply, but in respect of which the new duty will not apply. Will the Minister give us an estimate of the amount that is involved in that? I am not to be taken as saying that there should be an additional tax on those stocks, but I do think that the House has a right to know what is the amount involved. When I hear the amount I will consider whether it is wise to leave the matter as it is or not. This is a matter on which the House should be in possession of all the facts.

Apart from this innovation announced by the Minister, the Bill deals with the increase in the tobacco duties announced by the Budget, the increases in the duty on beer and stout announced by the Budget and the increase in spirit duties announced by the Budget. We have already made it clear in the Budget debate that we consider those increases were unwarranted in the circumstances of 1962. In relation to one of them in particular, the increase in the spirit duty, I am afraid that if there is a reduction in consumption it may greatly affect our prospects of increased whiskey sales abroad. Unless those who are engaged in that trade have a healthy home market they are not going to be able to find the funds necessary in order to compete with the Scottish distillers in advertising at the other side of the Atlantic.

We suffer, and continue to suffer, and will continue to suffer for many years to come from the mistake made during the emergency years and from the shortsighted policy adopted then in restricting barley growing to such an extent that at the time when the Scottish distillers were breaking into the American market in a big way our distillers were not allowed to buy enough barley to enable them to distil and sell in that market at that time. There is no doubt that the Scottish distillers cut a niche for themselves in the American market at that time which we could have got then, a small part of which would have made an immense difference to our exports and an immense difference in the years since to our farmers in the barley-growing districts.

It was a Revenue decision because it was desired to restrict exports in order to produce more revenue here at home and for that reason a golden opportunity was thrown away. Now it is going to need far more effort to break into that market and far more and costly advertising and that can only be achieved on the basis of a successful home market. Without that the distillers will not have the funds to do it. I might add in that respect that the decision of the Minister in relation to the reduction of the grant made by Córas Tráchtála was injudicious and a breach of faith. I believe that was done in a spirit of peevishness because the Irish distillers reduced the strength of their whiskey to 30 under proof. Reduce it they had to because there was a greater profit for the retailers in selling a bottle of Scotch over the counter by the glass than in selling a bottle of Irish. As a result, Scotch and other imported spirits were being pushed to the detriment of the sales of Irish whiskey in the home market.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not persent; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I feel that the reduction in that grant was done much more in the spirit of peevishness and bad temper than on consideration of the merits. However, that will be more appropriate on the Appropriation Bill and I will have another opportunity of mentioning it at that stage.

Before I pass on to other aspects of the Finance Bill, I want to draw the attention of the House to a rather extraordinary change I notice in the receipts and issues from the Exchequer this year. Between 1st April, 1961, and 3rd June, 1961, the expenditure out of the Exchequer on Central Fund services and on Supply services, current and capital, amounted to £15,656,000. In exactly the same period this year, less one day, the expenditure amounted to £20,933,000. That is to say, this year's expenditure on Supply services—it is virtually all on Supply services—in the first two months of the Financial year is one-third higher than last year. That is a phenomenal increase, one in respect of which we should like some explanation from the Minister. I can think of certain explanations. One would be that there was a carry-over from last year but it is better not to speculate. It is such an extraordinary rate of increase that I think the Minister should deal with it now rather than wait until we come to 30th June when the ordinary quarterly statement will be issued by the Department of Finance.

At this time, when we are discussing general policy in the Finance Bill, it is appropriate to make reference to one aspect of public finance which is causing very considerable uneasiness throughout the country particularly among those who have contacts with the business community. It is the manner in which there appears to be so little public knowledge available and so little public control, therefore, available over the performance of certain State-sponsored bodies. I have said on more than one occasion in this House that I felt the Industrial Credit Company were being entirely misused at the present time by the Government to carry out two functions.

One of these is a proper function but the other is a misuse of function. The Industrial Credit Company are supposed to deal with the various applications made to them on a purely commercial basis but we all know that in addition to that commercial rating of the propositions that are put to them, they are also dealing with certain matters directly on the instructions of the Government and not on a commercial basis. I shall not challenge at this stage, because I have not got sufficient information—nobody could have it from the way in which these accounts are buried and hidden —whether the Government are right in the directions they have given or whether they are wrong, but I do say that there is, and has been for some time, a crying need that the affairs of the Industrial Credit Company would be segregated into two portions.

Let there be one portion dealing with financing solely as a commercial operation. Let those commercial operations stand as such and let them as a body be prepared to stand over the commercial viability of the advances they make in that respect. But when it comes to the point where the Government feel that in the general interest steps should be taken other than pure commercial steps, then it is entirely wrong that those steps should be taken and then be buried and hidden in the secrecy of the affairs of the Industrial Credit Company.

I would accept at once that the operations of such a body might be serviced by the ICC. They might very well do the actual payments but where public money is being disbursed other than on a commercial basis, it is absolutely essential in the public interest that the public should know and be told not merely the amounts but also the reasons for the expenditure. As I have already said, I have referred on previous occasions here to the manner in which I feel the Industrial Credit Company was misused to dish out large sums of public money on a basis that was far from commercial so that if it were a commercial basis the company concerned would not have had anything whatever to do with it.

I am not challenging whether or not it was right that those payments should have been made but if it were necessary, as I believe it was necessary in the national interest to make a substantial payment, for example, to preserve the employment and the livelihood of those who would have lost them because of the close down of the Great Northern Railway works at Dundalk, then those payments should have been made in the light of day and should not have been hidden away in the manner in which they were hidden. Proper payments of that sort would, I am certain, have complete support from every section in this House but it is only through the publication of the expenditure of such public money, through its subjection to the glare of public scrutiny, that we can be sure such money is being expended in the proper way. I feel, in fact, that in the instance I have mentioned, if it had been subjected to that scrutiny, there would be more people in employment there to-day and far less money would have been wasted than was wasted by the method which was adopted.

Recently I came across another case in another constituency not very far away from that which I mentioned where the Industrial Credit Company had been paying out money. I ascertained the payments in the company's office and nobody could possibly suggest that this was a payment on a commercial basis, as such. It may have been necessary — I do not know whether it was or not—for the purpose of preserving employment or for future development, but it was not on a commercial basis. When it is not on a commercial basis, the facts, the figures and the policies should be announced in this House and should be stood over by the Ministers who adumbrate them. By that form of criticism we will get a far more healthy expenditure of public money and far greater results in the long run.

I hear a rumour that another State-sponsored body has recently been given a sum of £5,000,000. I do not know whether it is true or not, and for that reason I shall not mention the name. None of these rumours could be going around if the proper procedures were put into operation and if there were proper public control of public moneys being disbursed on other than purely commercial operations. The introduction of a Finance Bill appears to me to be one of the occasions on which reference can properly be made to that fact.

Another aspect we see in relation to these State-sponsored bodies is that their operations frequently have become intermingled, on Government instructions, in such a way that it is virtually impossible for anyone to disentangle the results. I will compete with anyone in my compliments to what has been done by Aer Lingus. They produce an excellent service, a service deserving of the highest praise in all its aspects, both in regard to performance on the technical level and in relation to its economic affairs generally. But I find it impossible, in considering the accounts of that company, to disentangle where Aer Lingus stands on an economic basis with the affairs of Aerlínte, on the one hand, and the management of airports, on the other. The sooner we get away from that and have a simple method of ordinary business accounting for separate entities, such as those three entities, then the better it will be for everybody. It is something that should be tackled at once by the Minister for Finance. He is the sole shareholder in almost all of these State-sponsored bodies and is the dominant Minister in respect of all of them.

I should like also to make a comment on another company but I think, in deference to what I know would be the wishes of the Chair, in view of the enquiry being held at the moment I shall leave the Irish Life Assurance Company to another occasion.

Apart from the lack of proper public knowledge, and, therefore, public control, we are considering also in this Finance Bill taxation policy in general. It is an unfortunate fact which we must all accept that the investment ratio of our national product is far too low by any standard and certainly far too low by the standards of those with whom we may be soon—and I use the word "may" deliberately — in close working in the Common Market. The investment ratio we have here has been increased slightly but it is still a long way below the British investment ratio and the British investment ratio is far below most of the rest of Europe. Most Continental countries are advancing. Germany, France and even Norway are running their investment ratio to national product at somewhere about from 25 per cent. to 28 per cent., while we here are much nearer to from ten per cent. to 12 per cent. So long as that continues, we will not be able to improve on a permanent basis our standard of living.

The taxation policy of the Government should be directed, before all else, towards ensuring that those involved will be enabled to plough back and increase investment not merely in existing forms of machinery but in new forms and in research. Association in the Common Market will inevitably mean there will be a better future for bigger units with the better facilities such bigger units have for research. On the other hand, unless we can show specialisation in certain lines, we will not be able adequately to compete. That specialisation requires the most up-to-date machinery for whatever type of article is involved. Unless we increase, and quickly increase, our investment in our production in that way, we are going to find ourselves at a very great disadvantage in the new Europe arising.

Yesterday, we all got from the Statistics Office a note showing the increase in the cost of living. Most of us were only too well aware of that increase before we got its statistical measurement. This showed that the cost of living had gone up by some four points from last February and by eight points from the year before —eight points on 150, or roughly 1/- in the £ in a year. When I read that statistical note yesterday morning, I could not help reflecting what would have happened if Fianna Fáil had been on this side of the House. They would have talked of nothing else for the next month.

As I said already, the Finance Bill should be the Bill on which the pattern of Budget taxation for the whole year is introduced by the Minister. In that respect, this Bill includes the increased duty on tobacco announced last month; the increased duty on beer and stout announced last month; the increased duty on whiskey announced last month. But these are only a very small part of the train of increases that have been announced in one form of "little budget" or another by the Government. We have had an increase in postal charges announced by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs and an increase in telephone charges announced by the same Minister; we have had increases in bus fares announced from time to time by CIE and disclaimed by the Minister for Transport and Power. Similarly, we have had increases in electricity charges announced by the ESB and equally disclaimed by the Minister for Transport and Power.

We have been told also that there is another increase coming up in the shape of further contributions from employer and employee for insurance stamps. The final blow today is extra taxation announced by the Minister under the Imposition of Duties Acts. Is it not time for the Government to try to make up their mind on one pattern, to try to see where they are going and where they want to go? Is it not time for them to make up their mind to find a direction instead of chopping and changing from day to day and week to week, chopping and changing as instanced by the withdrawal of the penny last month and the adding of the penny on the gallon of milk this month?

While I welcome that change by Fianna Fáil to the policy we adumbrated at that time, at the same time, it would be far better for the community as a whole if the Government did not attempt to make that penal imposition and then find they had to change their minds. Consistency would pay very much greater benefits to the community as a whole and would enable the people to plan much more adequately and more readily the fields in which they are able to develop and expand.

At this stage I propose to talk only about the new proposal made by the Minister. On general financial policy, we had the Budget debate and therefore I do not propose to discuss it again in any general way. We shall leave any comments I, or a member of the Party, might wish to make to the Committee Stage.

As Deputy Sweetman said, this is the third Budget we have had this year. We had the increase in stamp charges; we had the ordinary Budget in April; and now we have a miniature budget. I cannot agree with the Minister when he says he believes that the imposition of a penny on the packet of cigarettes is the least objectionable way of securing the increase in revenue needed to finance the increase in the milk price. We have not shown much imagination in this country in regard to raising money. Whenever we are in difficulty, we seem to have but two sources, cigarettes and beer and, on some occasions, in the recent past, entertainments generally.

What strikes me about this is that this extra penny of tax revenue will mean that an even lesser proportion of tax revenue will be devoted to social welfare. One cannot reconcile that with the statements of various Ministers to the effect that if there is more put into the national cake, social welfare recipients can get more out of it. In the past four or five years, the tendency has been for their percentage of the national cake to become smaller. This proposal makes it even smaller. The increase in tax revenue in the Budget and provided in this miniature budget amounts to something like £11 million. Of that, I think social welfare recipients will get about £1 million.

It seems extraordinary that it was said by the Minister for Social Welfare, or perhaps the Minister for Finance recently, that social welfare recipients could be considered only in conjunction with the Budget. That was on a debate on a motion which asked for increases in various social benefits, but, as has been pointed out now, the price of milk can be considered at any time and the revenue to finance an increase in the price of milk can be, if this sort of practice is engaged in, obtained by the imposition of new duties by order of the Government.

I fear this will hit social welfare recipients. While in debates at Budget time, we are inclined to talk in millions I propose to talk about pennies. This proposal will mean a reduction in weekly income of social welfare recipients. It may be so small that some members of the House are inclined to laugh about it but I reckon that the half crown that will be paid to old age pensioners, for instance, from 1st of August next will be re-reduced by something between 3d. and 6d. for those who smoke. That cannot be denied. I do not think it would be unreasonable to say that a person who smokes will smoke ten cigarettes a day. That will mean an increase of a halfpenny per day. It seems pretty small but it means that person will pay an extra 3d. per week for his cigarettes on that small quota. If he smokes 20 per day, it will mean a reduction of 7d. a week which again means that the increase of 2s. 6d. from August 1st will be reduced to an increase of less than 2/- a week. Similarly, those who got increases, or to whom it is proposed to give increases, under the terms of the Budget introduced in April will have their benefits reduced.

As was pointed out in the Budget debate, the tendency has been to increase the amount of indirect taxation. That is contrary to the practice in Great Britain and Europe at present. I think we hold the record of all the countries of Europe for the amount of indirect taxation we have as against direct taxation. The indirect taxation we have in the form now proposed hits those who have the smaller income more than anybody else. It is not unreasonable to suggest that the Minister could have got the money from another source.

Much play was made recently about the eighth round wage increases to workers, amounting to approximately 7½ per cent. Some eyebrows were raised; some people had the impression that workers got much more than the economy could afford in that eighth round which we had in 1961 and to some extent in 1962. Very seldom do we get publicity, however, for the fact that bank profits increase. They increased by 14 per cent, last year and corporation profits tax increased by something like 13 per cent. Therefore it would not be unreasonable for me to suggest that if the Minister wanted to compensate the suppliers of milk to the extent of a penny a gallon, he should have looked for some of this money from this source. However, it is the simplest form of taxation and it is the simplest thing for the Minister to say: "Slap a penny on the packet of cigarettes." This increase hits people with small incomes and I object to that taxation and to the fact that it is an increase in the amount of indirect taxation.

(South Tipperary): It seems to me there is an ambivalent approach on the part of the Minister to taxation. On the one hand, he has told us he is exploring the question of indirect taxation because he thinks it is now desirable to examine it and he is instructing the Revenue Commissioners to do so in view of the fact that our entry into the Common Market may take place shortly. I understand he has told us also that indirect taxation is a feature of continental practice and it is desirable to bring our tax structure into harmony with continental practice.

On the other hand, the Minister has told us he is installing a very complicated electronic device to capture two types of people in our community, the businessman and the professional man. When I speak of the businessman I mean the small businessman because the large businessman or company man who has his income pretty well tailored for presentation for revenue purposes has very little difficulty. The small businessman who has to produce returns for the revenue authorities and has to pay extra for doing it is always in a more difficult position because he cannot produce detailed accounts for revenue purposes. The Minister who was at one time a professional man has seen fit to pick out specially the small businessman and the professional man in the control of evasion of taxation.

The ways of the taxpayer are hard. In our community as in Great Britain or elsewhere the onus is on the taxpayer to prove his case. In any ordinary court you are innocent until you are proved guilty. Here a taxpayer is guilty and has to prove his innocence. There is a notion abroad that the person who is on a fixed salary is the person who suffers most. That can be quite erroneous. There is a notion that the person who has some private source of income, whether he is a businessman or a professional man, can do a bit of fiddling. However, the Revenue people use a glib term which they call "vouchability". Vouchability is a relative term.

That matter would come relevantly under the heading of administration. The method of collection of the taxes is a matter for administration. In the Finance Bill, we are dealing with taxation.

It would be a matter for amendment under the Bill. It is one of the ways it could be dealt with. This Bill throws open the whole income tax code for amendment.

The Deputy is entitled to refer to the taxation proposals but the method by which the money is collected comes under the heading of administration. Administration does not arise on the Finance Bill.

It is not administration. It is under rules of the Income Tax Act, 1918, the Seventh Schedule to that Act.

(South Tipperary): I am endeavouring to defend two classes, the professional class and the small business class to which the Minister has attached himself. That was the genesis of my approach. As I have said, the Minister speaks, on the one hand, of indirect taxation and, on the other hand, he speaks of increasing direct taxation for two classes and in regard to these two classes I have tried to show how income tax operates here. I am bringing these matters to the notice of the Minister in the hope that he may effect some improvement.

I was making the point that the onus of proof of income lay with the taxpayer which is contrary to the ordinary law of the State. The taxpayer should be entitled to the same treatment as anybody who is brought into court for an offence. The matter should not lie entirely with the taxpayer. In the production of proof he is not even accorded the ordinary protection of the Press or the public.

That again would be a matter more relevant on an Estimate than on the Finance Bill which deals with the question of taxation and not the methods of collecting the taxes.

(South Tipperary): I do not know how to deal with the matter if I am precluded from dealing with the method of collecting taxes. How can I discuss it in relation to the new techniques which the Minister is using to affect two classes?

In Part I of the Bill, there is a section which deals with the continuation of the practice of charging income tax and surtax. I submit the methods of collection must be relevant.

The question of administration does not arise on the Finance Bill. Deputy Hogan is dealing with the method of collection.

It is not a question of administration. It is a question that is fundamental to the taxes themselves. The basis on which taxes are to be charged is dealt with in Part I of this Bill and, with respect, I submit it is not, therefore, a question of administration and my colleague, Deputy Hogan, is entitled to urge whatever changes he thinks might be made legislatively effectively to improve the methods of collection.

I did not understand Deputy Hogan to urge that the law is being improperly administered. I understood him to urge that the law, to be administered, should be altered. If his charge were that the law is improperly administered, I would agree with the Chair, but, as I understand it, that is not the charge.

I feel Deputy Hogan will get a more relevant opportunity of raising this matter of the method of collecting the taxes on the Estimate.

In doing so on the Finance Bill, he is completely out of order.

He will be told on the Estimate that the Revenue Commissioners are a paramount body and the Minister cannot interfere with them, as, indeed, he cannot. At least he should be so told. I have no doubt the Minister will not miss that opportunity.

(South Tipperary): The Minister has indicated that he intends to extend the stringency of his methods of collecting income tax. I am endeavouring to demonstrate that his methods at the moment are more than adequate. Surely that is relevent. I am merely asking to be allowed to demonstrate how income tax works from the point of view of the person at the receiving end.

That, surely, is a question of administration.

The Minister referred to it in his Budget speech.

He may have referred to it briefly.

Then, surely, Deputy Hogan may be allowed to refer to it briefly.

The Minister referred to it only briefly because he was in difficult country.

Deputy Hogan will appreciate that this is not a Budget debate.

We thought it was.

(South Tipperary): I can only appeal then to the Minister to reconsider his attitude, and particularly his electronic device, thereby sparing himself all the expense and trouble of installing the machine. It will only give a great many people, including the Revenue Commissioners themselves, a great many headaches. I would ask him to endeavour to amend the methods of collection so that, for example, auditors, whom people are compelled to employ, will be free and independent agents and their living not at the mercy of the Revenue Commissioners, as it is at the moment.

That does not arise on the Finance Bill and the Deputy might seek another more relevant opportunity to raise it.

(South Tipperary): Finally, I would ask the Minister to place the courts, which are the final appeal in matters like this, on a more parallel basis with the ordinary courts of law. In other words, people should not be taken into a chamber, the door locked, no legal protection, no members of the press present, no public, to be frightened and coerced in surroundings with which they are entirely unfamiliar.

That, again, is not relevant.

(South Tipperary): Those are the main points I wish to raise.

I look upon the Finance Bill, rightly or wrongly, as a kind of final opportunity to review all financial policy post-Budget. We were suspicious of the Minister's Budget and our suspicions have been amply confirmed in the Finance Bill now before the House. This Bill is certainly not a credit to anybody. To a certain extent I exult in the strength of purpose of the creamery suppliers, a strength sufficiently effective to force the Government to have very substantial second thoughts about the levy. Whitewash and paint whatever way the Minister tries, there is no doubt at all but that he had to come in here today with a radical amendment of his Finance Bill in order to give back to Peter what he had robbed from Paul. To my mind it was dishonest to allow the levy and then, when the boot began to pinch, to juggle with our finances and as the Leader of the Labour Party said, place the heaviest impact of the new tax on that section of the community least qualified to bear it.

It is a perennial complaint of mine that the integrity of this Government is absolutely appalling. That is typified in the kind of speech to which we have just listened, a speech which demonstrates starkly to the Irish people that the Government are short of policy and short of concept when they find themselves, almost before the ink on the Order to allow Bord Bainne to collect the levy is dry, coming in here and saying they had better give a penny a gallon increase in milk to the creameries to alleviate the very justifiable indignation, particularly on the part of the small dairy farmers, at the gross robbery inherent in the levy.

I warn the Minister this Bill will not carry him very far. I remember the present Minister for Agriculture, and the boys behind him, laughing and joking about the penny a gallon. It is on their own heads now. I can tell them that, when they go back to their creamery milk suppliers, they will give them a penny a gallon and wrap it round them like——

(Interruptions.)

I know this is a sore subject. Milk is a sore subject with the Fianna Fáil Party because it is tied up with the wholesale slaughter of the calves by Fianna Fáil and all the stupidity of the economic war.

(Interruptions.)

I shall pass from this obviously sore subject of milk, so sore that the Fianna Fáil Party do not like it too well, to some of the other imposts of this Finance Bill.

As a palliative to Deputy Dr. Browne and as an easy way of collecting revenue the tobacco smoker had to be hit again. There is very little merit in that taxation. I can think of a far more ready way of getting the money than collecting it from the smoker considering he has already borne an impost of 1d. and in some cases 2d. It would do the Minister good to review the increases that have in fact taken place in packages of cigarettes since the Budget was introduced. He will find that in relation to certain brands the impost was 2d., not 1d. I suppose the same thing will happen now.

There is room for imaginative thinking in connection with taxation. Certainly there is another more ready source the Minister could have taxed and he would not be short of the £200,000 that he is suggesting he might be short of in giving the £1,000,000 to the creamery milk suppliers. Of course, lack of imagination, stultification and atrophy of idea have become the hallmarks of this now super-conservative Government. It is a great truism that the Fianna Fáil Party which once had a tremendous scheme for the return of emigrants, for a buoyant economy, 100,000 new jobs and all the rest of it, have now moved right of the right and are sitting in a twilight glow of a dying era and of ageing people. This Finance Bill has all the hallmarks of that type of dreamy-eyed nostalgic Cabinet that we now have of old and semi-withered men.

That was the position when we took over in 1957 from the Deputy's Party. He is describing it exactly.

Thanks be to God, I was growing up and coming to the age where I could give you a lecture. It is patent from the whole financial structure for the coming year that the Government are playing a safe ball in their own backyard. The Minister, with his tongue in his cheek, is talking about a possible shortfall when he knows perfectly well that with the present trend of revenue and the buoyancy of revenue he will very likely be in the position, after moaning and bleating again in the Christmas period of this year, of having a buoyant revenue to deal with the budgetary situation next year.

Whether the approach by my colleague Deputy Hogan was strictly within the rules of order or not, there is no doubt that this Finance Bill is the instrument by which the imposition of income tax and surtax is effected. There is no doubt that there is great interest throughout the country in finding some method of effectively removing the anachronisms and anomalies that arise under the income tax code. We have reached the stage where these matters are shelved to commissions and if we press for enlightened legislation we are told that the matter is being reviewed by the commission. I would urge the Minister that before he comes in with another Finance Bill next year he should endeavour to get an effective preview of the amendment in the structure of our income tax codes that will be necessary so as to conform with the income tax systems of the partners we will possibly have in the European Economic Community and that some effort should be made to reorientate the efforts of the Revenue Commissioners in tax gathering towards a more modern and flexible type of code where the unfortunate classes within the taxable groups will not be squeezed dry while others go free who, but for the archaicness of the system, could be brought into the net.

This Finance Bill is the implementation of the framework set out by the Minister in his Financial Statement. I had a fair amount of comment to make on the Budget. It showed none of the energetic or virile concept necessary in a Government that were facing the epoch-making decision of entry or otherwise into the European Economic Community. In this Bill to implement the Budgetary proposals the Government are merely carrying on the dull, mediocre, conservative policy of a semi-decadent government. It does give us the opportunity of again impressing upon the Government the necessity for a more forthright effort for the future. In a situation in which we have to meet a different type of market and a different type of competition this unimaginative approach of hitting the same limited range of commodities time after time to offset any shortfall in revenue cannot be continued.

The easy method of imposing additional tax on tobacco has been used exhaustively. There is the enthusiasm of Deputy Dr. Browne to educate us into not smoking. There is the head in the sands approach of others towards smoking. Smoking, however, particularly for the classes referred to by Deputy Corish, is not in the category of a luxury any more. To the elderly person in the social services groups, the old age pensioner, the unemployed, those temporarily unable to earn a full wage, who have acquired the habit of smoking, it has become an essential part of their lives. It is unreasonable that under a Finance Bill that makes provision for reliefs to certain people, such as the complete removal of entertainment duties, the unfortunate sections of the community who have to be satisfied with a miserable increase of 2/6d. in their allowances as from next August will now have to bear an increase in the cost of tobacco, even if it only amounts to 4d. or 5d. in the week. That increase devalues the miserable 2/6d. Increase by a percentage that is grossly in excess of what is fair vis-à-vis all other sections of the community.

That is the kind of stultified attitude to these financial problems that gets me down. They talk in airy-fairy figures about certain aids and benefits which we will have to give to industry in order to equip it effectively for the challenge of the Common Market. We feel, on all sides of the House, that we are justified in helping our industrialists by giving them financial assistance, but at the same time the same Government can adopt an attitude of only giving 2s. 6d. to the social welfare group. Immediately after doing so they come in and place the biggest impost on the very people who are getting least.

This kind of Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde attitude on the part of the Government has been revealed in the budgetary proposals and in the Finance Bill. It is the complete lack of vision that appalls me. Were it not for the fact that the farmers marched before the Budget they would have got no great relief. Were it not for the fact that they are a well-knit unit that can effectively redden the ears of Fianna Fáil Deputies in the milk producing areas they would not have got the penny a gallon. I hope they push further their justified claims in relation to their cost of production vis-á-vis what they are getting. When the Minister has to face up to that future situation I hope he will place the burden of whatever additional taxation he has to impose on backs more fitted to bear it and will not resort to the worn out method of putting another penny on tobacco.

I do not want to labour the Bill because when you have an unimaginative Budget you cannot expect to have any imagination in the Bill that implements it. This Bill has one distinction. It is a little bit more discreditable than usual because the Minister has been forced by the upsurge of political opinion to give back to Paul what he has robbed from Peter.

As Deputy Collins mentioned, the object of this Finance Bill is to give, in the year to which it applies, legal sanction to the measures we have already discussed in the Budget and to the extent that the Bill carries out the policy contained in the Budget that policy comes for discussion in this debate. This year, instead of having the Finance Bill introduced formally by the Minister, we have had the unprecedented example of the Minister having to announce on the Second Stage that it would contain a provision for further taxation.

In these difficult times which face every country, particularly in Western Europe, it is of the utmost importance that there should be in office a government which know their own mind, that know their policy and that are capable, at least within a year, of adhering to that policy. This year the Budget was introduced at the earliest period ever in the financial year and the proposals in that Budget were supposed to contain the policy of the Government for the twelve months to follow. It appears now that that was not so. We have become accustomed in recent years, under Fianna Fáil administration, to a number of budgets every year. This year we started off earlier than usual because within a few weeks of the introduction of the Budget itself along comes a second one. I suppose that before the Dáil goes into recess there will be another one and that by the autumn there will be three or four.

That cannot make for public confidence. If we were properly governed we should now be preparing to deal with the serious economic problems that are rising before us in relation to our application to join the Common Market. It is essential that people engaged in agriculture should know that when a Minister for Finance sets out Government policy that policy will be constant at least for a period of twelve months. It is now apparent that no such assurance can be given by a Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance. The Budget statement can only be taken to be the views of the Minister for the two hours in which he is speaking and can only represent the policy of the Government until that policy is changed or altered.

That is a bad omen for our position in relation to the new set-up in Europe, a bad augury for the future. It vindicates what we in Fine Gael have been saying for some years, that the Fianna Fáil Government decide on things from week to week and month to month and that they have no clear mind on any particular subject.

On 22nd of May of this year, the Minister for Agriculture stood up in the House and said that this levy on milk would have to be imposed, that it was in accordance with the statutory set-up and powers of the appropriate body and that he and the Government were standing over it. On 22nd May, that was the decision and the view of the Fianna Fáil Party. Then things started to happen. Deputies went back to their constituencies and they heard the sound of feet mobilising for another march by the farmers. Perhaps they remembered so well — many of them from Kerry, from Clare and from Limerick—the Fianna Fáil Deputies who back in 1956 organised and mobilised a march of dairy farmers from the south up to Dublin city.

Certainly the result was dramatic. Six days later, this Minister, who was so adamant here in the House, announced that the penny levy would be given back in another way to the farmers concerned. Of course the decision was a correct one. It would have been utterly outrageous for this or any Government in times like the present to proceed to tax primary producers in a vital industry. It would have been utterly absurd to do so, but it was a decision by the Government and let there be no doubt about it, if they had a stronger majority in this House, that decision would never have been altered. Equally, let there be no doubt that were it not for the fact that there were sitting opposite them a strong, vigorous Fine Gael Party, that decision would not have been altered.

But they knew well the Fine Gael organisation would fight that decision throughout the country and therefore the white flag fluttered from the Department of Agriculture and so we have the second Fianna Fáil Budget in this financial year —£200,000 has to be found in fresh taxation to meet this jittery Government's change of plan and of policy. It will not be deferred. The farmers who are getting back this penny will not have to wait until July or August. Oh, no. They will get it in cash down because they count in terms of politics. Others may have to wait until August, but not the farmers.

And so the money must be raised immediately. There is a sum of £200,000 involved — less than a quarter of one per cent. of the total Budget moved here last April. As Deputy Sweetman pointed out earlier, one might have expected the Minister for Finance to mobilise the resources of his Department and find that sum of money by a little bit of care and prudence in expenditure. But apparently we do not have that jealous, prudent watchfulness over Government expenditure and so the unfortunate taxpayer must pay for this panicky change of mind on the part of the Government. It is regrettable that the money should be found by imposing a new burden on the less well off sections of our community.

If the Government can rely on a pliable majority in this House, presumably the money will be voted to them, but I hope that outside this House the people, who should be watchful in these difficult days and who should be concerned to have in office a Government who know their own mind, will remember that here is one more example of jittery Government, of hasty decisions made one day and changed the next. I have little doubt that they will come to the conclusion they cannot for long afford that kind of Government in these difficult times.

I shall not say much.

The Deputy never does.

However, when I heard the last two speakers, I was compelled to reply. Indeed, these Deputies were on a very sticky wicket, as far as the farmers are concerned. They gave very little to the farmers when they had the opportunity. They referred to the Minister changing his mind. Is it not the essence of true democracy to be able to change your mind? It just shows what a democratic Party we are.

It just shows that you have not an overall majority.

We are big enough to change our minds if we feel the position demands it of us. It was those on the opposite side of the House who organised the farmers' march and when Fianna Fáil gave the farmers £2,500,000 for the relief of rates on agricultural land, they adopted the usual technique of destructive criticism. They cried for the farmers but when we gave the farmers something, they voted against it. I do not know whether Deputy Seán Collins or Deputy T.F. O'Higgins voted at all.

Perhaps the Deputy would get back to the Bill.

We are being treated here by the Opposition with complete insincerity. I welcome constructive hard-hitting at all times but not the hypocrisy we have had. They say they are the only people concerned about the farmers. During their long term in office they gave the farmers only one penny. I myself got more for them when I intervened in a milk strike with Deputy Coogan. We heard Deputy Seán Collins referring to the old age pensioners. His colleagues were in Government for a long time and they gave them nothing. We have treated the old age pensioners reasonably and we hope to treat them better.

If they live long enough.

Deputy Burke is going outside the scope of the debate.

I am only replying to the points made by other speakers; otherwise I would not have got up at all. These are the things we are being told by the Opposition. We had a treatise in history from Deputy Seán Collins. He went back to the Stone Age. He was concerned only with happenings 50 years ago.

Unfortunately, I could not bring back the calves slaughtered by the Deputy's party 30 years ago.

I had no intention of speaking, but, just for the fun of the fair, I have decided to contribute. I am concerned only with the truth of what we have been told about the effect of the proposal to levy an extra penny on the 20-packet of cigarettes, which will provide £200,000 to help the milk producers. It was said that the effects of that penny would be felt by the old age pensioners. The Leader of the Labour Party said it would cost the pensioners 6d. and 3d., while Deputy Collins mentioned 4d. and 5d. The truth is that only a percentage of the old age pensioners will be affected at all and they are not likely to be affected by more than a halfpenny or three farthings.

Is not a penny on a packet a penny?

You are destroying any chance of the old age pensioners getting a further increase. You are suggesting they are smoking from 10/-to £1 out of their 30/-. If it is being asserted it would cost the old age pensioner from 3d. to 6d., then it is being asserted that he is spending anything from 10/- to £1 a week out of his 30/-on smoking. If that is so, you are saying, in effect "Give them no more increases. They do not need them. They are spending from 10/- to £1 a week foolishly on tobacco instead of food."

The Deputy is trying to justify his vote.

No. We are talking about the non-contributory old age pensioner who has 30/- a week. We are asked to assume that he will lose 3d. per week. If he spends ¾ on tobacco and cigarettes, he will lose a penny. He would want to spend 10/-a week to lose 3d. Anyone with commonsense knows that no old age pensioner spends 10/- out of his 30/-on cigarettes and I doubt if even 10 per cent. of them spend ¾d. a week. I doubt if they could afford it; but if they could, they would lose a maximum of a penny. Since most of them smoke plug tobacco, which I understand is not being taxed, they will lose nothing. The old women do not smoke and we must assume they lose nothing, either. The truth of the matter therefore is that about 10 per cent. may lose a penny. I got up to make that point clear. We hear a lot of palaver here and nothing else.

Although we are discussing the Finance Bill, I should like to say at the outset that we are really discussing a Supplementary Estimate. There is no question about it. On an important financial Bill such as this, which dovetails the entire fiscal policy of the Government, it is extraordinary that the Minister for Finance spoke for a matter of five or six minutes and had practically nothing at all to say. He had nothing to justify these taxes or the overall financial policy of the Government.

We are dealing in this Finance Bill with the different tax impositions. The first thing I should like to deal with is whiskey, on which we are imposing a further tax. We are imposing a further hardship on an Irish industry, manned entirely by Irish labour and supplied by Irish raw materials, and with a considerable employment content. Apart from the employment in the industry itself, there is the employment it gives to outside sections such as the agricultural community.

At the same time, we are giving large sums of money to people to encourage them to come here and start industries. That is the financial policy in this Finance Bill. I am not gainsaying the fact that we ought to encourage people to come in and start industry. But surely there is something paradoxical about it. Here we have an industry based on all these factors, giving full employment of Irish labour and Irish raw materials and of considerable benefit to the farmers. Yet we are imposing taxation on that industry and nullifying the efforts to expand production and sales at home in order to export. That does not strike me as being sound financial policy, nor has the Minister in any way tried to justify it in his speech. The only justification of this tax by any member of the Government so far has been made by the Taoiseach who said it was a good thing because it will stop people drinking whiskey.

The Scotch distillery industry have considerable funds at their disposal. They are able to advertise and expand into the very market inot which we want to expand at the moment, if we are to play our part in the Common Market, that is, the European market. There is a very big demand now for a high-class type of drink such as the high-class tourist takes in the form of whiskey. That demand is in the better class hotels and restaurants in all the large cities of Europe. Vast sums of money are being expended by the Scotch distillers to expand their sales, as they are doing regularly and steadily. The Irish industry, which should have an opportunity of doing the same, find their efforts nullified by excessive taxation. The Minister must have had a protest from the distillers. He must have had the letter we Deputies have had pointing out the facts.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

It is far more important that home industry should expand than that we should be offering inducements to bring in outside capital. I do not say these inducements should not be offered but surely it should be possible for the Minister to balance his accounts by cutting down a small amount of the money that is paid out in that way every year and leaving the whiskey prices as they were and so give this industry a chance of expanding instead of putting unnecessary taxation on it.

In his very limited speech, the Minister did not refer to Section 19 which appears to consist of some new regulations in regard to the adjustment of tariffs on industrial and other goods. I was under the impression that the Minister had full authority already to impose whatever duties he wished to impose or to remit any duties he wished to remit. Obviously, when there is a special section devoted to this question and it is associated with the negotiations in Brussels, we would have expected the Minister to give us some idea of what is behind these proposals.

As the Minister responsible for the financial policy of the Government, he might have given us some indication of why this section is in the Bill. Does it mean that some negotiations have already taken place and that as a result, industrialists will suddenly be asked to lower their tariffs? Does it mean extra tariffs will be imposed or that we are to have some new financial alignment to deal with the Common Market and the implictions it may have for this country? I do not know; I am just as ignorant in this respect as any other Deputy and I am seeking information from the Minister to clarify Section 19 and in regard to whatever fiscal arrangements — if any— they have in mind; what has already been decided — if anything — in outside negotiations, which may require alteration of our financial policy.

I come to the question of the penny on the cigarettes which Deputy Sherwin tried to defend. Deputy Burke, as the sole speaker for Fianna Fáil so far, also sought to justify it. With an overall Budget of £163 million, when the Government found themselves constrained because of the fight put up by the farmers and by those in public life who supported them, to give an extra penny on the gallon of milk—it was not given in any generous way—one would imagine it could have been given from the Budget itself. However, it is better late than never but it seems extraordinary that, with this Budget, with all the talk of booming prosperity, which Fianna Fáil Deputies echo when they speak down the country and when the amount required is only £1.2 million, it should not be available without further taxation, when we are supposed to be increasing production by some five or seven per cent.

It is a sorry story: it is only two months since the Budget and since then, we have had an increase in postage and now an extra penny is being imposed on cigarettes. The rake's progress starts all over again. That is the story of Fianna Fáil in power: they will not come in with a Budget to carry the country on for 12 months but they bring it in in dribs and drabs to soften the blow. Whether they give a penny on milk or put a penny on cigarettes——

Deputy Sweetman introduced three supplementary Budgets in one year when he was Minister.

Yes, but the Korean war was on at that time. Fianna Fáil had a satisfactory balance of payments; they had no outside difficulties. They have had what was, perhaps, the easiest passage any country could have and yet they blistered the people with taxation. If any Fianna Fáil Deputy will deny that the Government have increased taxation enormously on every section of the community in the past eight years they have been in power, I shall withdraw what I have said.

Five years.

Five years with a huge majority and no outside difficulty whatever and yet they have increased taxation. Perhaps Fianna Fáil will have a good laugh at that.

What we want is an inflow of capital —the more, the better. Budgetary proposals, some of which were formulated by the Minister's predecessor, encourage industrialists to bring foreign capital here but we are paying heavily for it. Taxpayers must pay for those things but economic expansion is desirable. We must try to industrialise on account of the flight from the land which is inevitable everywhere because of mechanisation and other factors. But there is a simpler way of achieving our aim. We have the same tax code as the United Kingdom and other countries and we impose death duties. If the Minister took his courage in his hands and altered the death duties, he would get the greatest inflow of capital conceivable not only from Britain but from America and all over the world. This would give us capital to enable us to finance our own schemes and this would be the better way. If necessary, we could get the techniques from abroad. That would be the correct policy but Fianna Fáil have no policy except that of simply trying to balance the Budget and carry on. They try to save themselves from electoral defeat but let me tell them that they had better face the fact that it is not very far away. Their electoral defeat is coming.

At least we balance our Budgets.

It is extraordinary, in view of the barrage of interruptions during the speech of Deputy Esmonde, that no Fianna Fáil Deputy spoke to support the Minister, apart from Deputy Burke who can always be relied on to put his foot in it. On this occasion, he was the only Government Deputy who, at least, had the courage to stand up and speak in an orderly fashion rather than interrupt Deputies contributing to the debate.

Deputy Sherwin felt obliged to make his apologia for his impending vote on this proposal. He confined his remarks to expressing the view that this proposal was of little importance to old age pensioners, that they were not interested in this additional taxation on tobacco and cigarettes. He implied that very few of them used their limited resources for this simple luxury. It is extraordinary, then, that local authorities permit reductions in their charges to those who are hospitalised in their institutions and who spend a small amount weekly on an occasional smoke. Those people will be hit the same as everybody else by the tax the Minister is proposing to-day. With other Deputies who have spoken, I regret very much that he should have adopted this method of finding the additional money. I can recall when the Special Import Duties were brought in by the previous Government, it was made very clear that they were not brought in for the purpose of securing additional revenue but to correct an imbalance of payments.

It turned out that it had that corrective effect and the Government which succeeded the Government that took that unpopular action had the benefit of taking over at a time when there was a surplus in the balance of payments as a consequence of that action. The money collected in the course of carrying out that corrective action was utilised for capital purposes and not for current expenditure. That solemn assurance was given to the House by the then Minister for Finance and we were particularly careful to ensure we would uphold trading agreements with other countries in the spirit as well as in the letter by not introducing such measures except for the purpose enshrined in these agreements, namely, the solution of a balance of payments problem.

For the first time since the State was founded, the Minister is utilising this method of getting the money which he says is necessary. Let any Deputies who are interested from the dairying areas, who support this Government and who were not in the House when the Minister was introducing this measure this afternoon, read the Minister's introductory statement and they will find some references with which they cannot possibly agree. In the second paragraph, the Minister makes the statement:

This change is necessitated by the decision announced by the Minister for Agriculture on 28th May to arrange for an increase of 1d. a gallon in the price of creamery milk as from June 1st.

An increase of a penny a gallon, and so tomorrow when the smokers meet in their various rendezvous, they will have it to say: "The farmers are getting an increase of a penny a gallon and that is why this taxation is now imposed upon us"—an increase of a penny a gallon, when everybody knows there is no such thing as an increase of a penny a gallon being provided.

The Minister does not stop at that. He goes on further to say, in the third paragraph:

The cost of raising by a penny a gallon the price paid for milk supplied to creameris is estimated at £1.3 million for a full year.

There is reference again to raising the price and then in case we would not recognise it as an increase, there is a third reference in the final paragraph, in which the Minister states:

Revenue from this extra duty will not fully cover the cost of the increase in the price of milk.

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance nods his head in agreement that this is an increase.

So if you take a penny out of one pocket and put it in another, are you better off?

This year——

The Parliamentary Secretary will have an opportunity of contributing to the debate and I challenge him to prove that this taxation today represents one penny increase on the price of milk. If he does that, he is a better man than I am and I am very confident the Parliamentary Secretary has more sense than to attempt the impossible. We know, of course, that this levy was brought in by this Government quite some time ago.

It was not introduced by this Government.

The system of levy was brought in before Bord Bainne was ever set up.

By this Dáil.

The Minister is trying by interruption to divert me from the remarks I wish to make.

Not by this Government, by this Dáil.

The Fianna Fáil Government previously in office. The Minister cannot wash his hands of his former misdeeds.

You are washing your hands of it. You voted for it.

I am not because we were critical here right through of the concept of the levy.

Critical, but you did not vote against it.

As the head of the dairy industry, the Minister ought to hang his head in shame.

For what?

As the calf slaughterer. If the Minister wants to interrupt, he will get retaliation.

A Deputy

There were more than calf slaughterers.

Deputy O'Sullivan is entitled to speak without interruption.

(Interruptions.)

Deputy Lynch should not interrupt his colleague.

He is getting bad example from the Ministerial front bench.

I did not think he would follow example.

There are some Deputies over there who do not open their mouths except to interrupt.

Deputy Lynch is interrupting constantly.

I was making the point that the previous Government, not the Party now in office, met the full cost of any losses on the export of butter without reference to the producers. The whole concept of imposing a levy on the agricultural industry, that because they worked harder and answered the call for increased production, that the more that was available for export, the lower the price they should receive, emanated from a Fianna Fáil Government. However, at a later stage, in an effort to relieve themselves of some of the burden, they thought up this new idea of charging Bord Bainne with providing the markets that would make this levy unnecessary. It was held out as a carrot to the agricultural organisations that if they were to participate in such a marketing organisation, the results would be such as to make the levy unnecessary. What was the whole idea of setting up Bord Bainne other than to find more lucrative markets for our dairy produce?

That was the intention of it, but today we have a tacit admission that that was completely futile and the Government have had completely to reverse the stand which the Minister for Agriculture took on 22nd May last in relation to the marketing of this commodity. The Minister was adamant that this levy would have to be imposed this year on the dairy farmers. Why is this money not paid direct to the industries concerned in the export of butter? Why must this very expensive method be used of putting into one pocket what has been taken out of the other one?

Many of the creameries in my constituency are paid by butter fat and not by gallons. It will take a great amount of time and clerical work in order to calculate the butter content and to work out this payment which they will seemingly have to make to Bord Bainne. Then they will get this penny back by way of compensation which will not completely compensate them for the cost involved because there is no allowance in this figure for the additional clerical work involved in determining the exact amount which each creamery society will be required to pay by way of levy. There is no allowance for that. Neither is there any inclusion to cover the time at which the levy was imposed up to the date from which this will operate.

This is an extraordinary volte face on the part of the Government. Within a few weeks, they have had to reverse completely the firm decision announced in this House in relation to this matter. There is no doubt in the world but that we would not have this discussion at all today if the Government had a clear overall majority. It was the revolt throughout the country and the mutiny in their own ranks in their recent national collection which have brought the Government to their knees and compelled them to reverse their decision to impose this penny reduction on the dairy suppliers this year.

I was surprised that Deputy Sherwin did not refer to the fact that the abolition of the food subsidies by Fianna Fáil has placed butter beyond the reach of so many of his constituents. I was surprised he did not make the point that this increase in the price of cigarettes would certainly be appreciated more if it were directed towards a reduction in the price of butter to the Irish consumer. The position is that we have to add that increase to what we are already paying the British people to eat our butter, the butter that is denied, because of its high price, to so many of our people at home. Many of our people could very well do with butter, if they could afford to pay for it.

My local creamery has in the past few years had to instal special machinery to make ½lb packets of butter. We know it was always the practice to buy the pound of butter. There was a time when people would prefer to do without anything rather than butter. Our people are now compelled to buy butter in lesser quantities because of the increase in the price caused by the withdrawal of the food subsidies. Instead of the rounds of wage increases to enable people to provide themselves with the necessaries of life, it would be a far better policy to have a lower cost of living, that lower cost of living that obtained before this Government got their hands on the finances of the State.

These costings have had their impact on the dairy producers as well as on everybody else. Let it be quite clear that there is no provision in this additional taxation for any increase in the price to the dairy producer. This is merely paying back to him the major part of the cost involved this year in the losses incurred in butter exports. It is a poor reflection on the policy of the Government and the Minister for Finance. In an earlier Budget, the Minister introduced a provision enabling him to spend a considerable sum of money on the marketing of agricultural produce. That was welcomed by everybody at that time as a worthwhile investment. It was expected that there would flow from it better markets for our dairy produce. Here we have an admission by the Government that the future now looks bleak from the point of view of the marketing of our dairy produce.

The implication in the imposition of this tax at this time is proof positive that the Government have been completely unsuccessful in their estimation of the charges that will arise in the next 12 months. Surely they should have been able to estimate what the losses on exports would be, and to make provision for them? Instead of that, before we have actually crossed the t's and dotted the i's of budgetary legislation, we have a supplementary Budget introduced. It is very early in the financial year for the Government to embark on supplementary Budgets. We hope this may not prove the forerunner of a series of supplementary Budgets before the year is out.

It needs very strong agitation to move the Fianna Fáil Government to come to the assistance of the agricultural community, but, whenever they are compelled to respond, they immediately raise the hackles of every other section of the community by imposing extra taxation directly on them. Today it was indicated, in reply to a question, that £500,000 was spent last year in improving tourist facilities in hotels. That is a worthy investment but no one can say that there was a halfpenny put on the packet of cigarettes in order to do that. Tomorrow everybody will have it to say that they have to pay a penny on the packet of 20 cigarettes for the benefit of the farmers. The farmers have legitimate claims to a real increase, but this impost is deliberately designed to make other sections of the community conscious of what the impact would be, were the Government to adopt further measures to alleviate the position of the farmers.

It is a poor reflection on the Government that in a massive Budget of approximately £163,000,000, they could not find the money to finance this present operation. A short while ago, the Minister for Justice told us he had money he did not know what to do with; he was talking about judges' salaries. No special taxation was imposed to increase these salaries or make retrospective payment to a particular individual. The taxpayer was not asked to bear the cost involved in that. Here, because the Government have been compelled to correct an action they were about to take, compelled to drop their earlier firm decision, compelled to reverse their policy, they now come into the House and say they cannot find the money other than by imposing this additional taxation.

It is not so long since we relieved some sections of the community of taxation. Last year certain reliefs were given to the dancehall proprietors. I know they had a special claim because of their contributions, contributions acknowledged on the record by the Taoiseach. The result of that relief was to make life more difficult in the rural areas because the advantages and preferences enjoyed by those areas went by the board. That taxation could have been retained and utilised to relieve the Government of their embarrassment now and of the necessity of telling the House that the Minister for Agriculture did not know what he was talking about on 12th May.

It is really an extraordinary situation, but the farming community will appreciate that it is one that would not have occurred, had the Government a clear majority in this House. Because they have not a majority, they have reacted to the revolt aroused when the Government announced their firm intention of pursuing the imposition of this levy upon the dairying community. We are glad they have been compelled to reverse that decision, but I regret that they intend to continue the imposition on the creamery societies of all the expense and trouble involved in the calculations they will be obliged to make in order to compute and pay this levy and then recoup this compensation, which may not meet the full amount involved as a charge on the societies concerned.

I should like to mention the anti-rural bias which can occur as a result of the method of increasing taxation on cigarettes in order to pay the penny a gallon on milk. It is very unwise in a community like ours to have this clear line of demarcation in taxation by which it is possible for people, quite erroneously, of course, to say that they have to pay an extra penny on cigarettes in order to pay the farmers. There was quite enough already of this urban antipathy and this argument of the urban dweller saying that the rural inhabitant is getting too many subventions, too many subsidies, and similarly the person in the country suggesting that perhaps civil servants or those working in protected industries are getting far too large a slice of the cake.

If we are to step forward industry and agriculture must step forward together. If only for that reason it is unwise that this legislation before us this evening should provide for the raising of money in an individual way.

It is quite clear that this manner of dealing with the problem of a reduction in the price of milk was a political manner. The problem was dealt with as a matter of expediency. There was no question of planning over the year. The fact is that as far back as before the Budget debate, it was quite clear that there would be these heavy losses. They could have been assessed and I am sure they were estimated accurately. Yet, the attempt of the Fianna Fáil Party in power was to see if they could get away with it. Having seen now, as instanced by the result of their own national collection, that they are not going to get away with it, they have taken a political decision which shows no planning, no thinking, no effort in regard to the marketing of our agricultural produce which is so important.

It is no harm to give the gossip in agricultural circles in this town as to what did happen. The gossip says that the Taoiseach's car and the car of the Minister for Agriculture were outside the Fianna Fáil headquarters in Mount Street on a certain evening for four hours and that the announcement that the penny was to be given back was made just in time to reach the last news but late for the banner headlines in all the papers the following morning and that in between a definite refusal on the part of the Minister for Finance and the announcement that there was to be this reduction, there was no Cabinet meeting.

You are romancing.

I give that as open gossip in agricultural circles in this town and in the agricultural organisations, and Deputy Moher who is shouting across the House now heard it himself in my company. Let him deny that if he likes.

You are romancing.

That is the gossip and anybody who wants to do so can find out why Fianna Fáil did not get the banner headlines for giving back that penny on the milk. It was because it was a political expedient or decision which had no relation to planning or anything else.

When the Dairy Produce Marketing Act became law last year, the position was—and we objected to it in this House and in the other House, of which I was a member at that time, on various grounds——

You did not register that objection.

One of the grounds was that automatically the position was that the agricultural community which is supplying milk to creameries had to pay one-third of any expenditure incurred in the furtherance of marketing, as far as milk was concerned. For instance, if the Government had decided, as I believe they should have decided, that they would take perhaps the cities of Liverpool and Manchester which have big Irish populations and advertise on the hoardings and put in every shop Irish butter or any other Irish milk product, Irish cheese, and take it away if not bought and had operated what is known as a crash marketing policy, all the expenses of that would have had to be borne in one-third part by the farmers.

It may be said that that is all right or that that is not all right. Having regard to the amount of subvention given by the Government to various enterprises, some of which have been mentioned in this debate, the Government should be free to do anything they wish in relation to the marketing of milk or milk products, and to do it by raising direct taxation. As things stand at the moment, they have to do it in the way described by Deputy O'Sullivan—an opportunist sort of way —fiddle one and then fiddle the other.

Unless it is something that is very big, unless it is something that gets into the £800,000 range, the position is that all that sales promotion must be borne in one-third part by the farmers. That might appear fair to many Deputies, not farmers, but when one considers the price of our milk at the moment, which is about 1/3d. less than that paid in the Common Market, it will be realised that a further impost in an attempt to save an enterprise that is underpaid is like the straw that breaks the camel's back. I feel that the legislation is incorrect and the manner of the introduction of this legislation we are discussing and the whole affair highlight that fact.

It is a fact that over the past five years this sum of money should have been reduced by increased sales of those milk products which do not bear such a heavy loss as butter. Deputy Lynch has constantly asked questions here as to the amount of money expended by the Government since five years ago the Dáil voted £250,000 for exploration of agricultural markets. The last figure given was £23,000 or something of that order. It is quite clear that in regard to sales promotion and market investigation, the expenditure of £23,000 over five years in relation to a major industry is just a joke. Where I condemn the Government is not on the basis of whether or not they paid a penny. The whole thing is far bigger than anything that could be measured in pence. I condemn the Government because they have not done anything to see whether there are extra markets for chocolate crumb, milk power, cheese, anything that bears a lesser loss than butter. Nothing has been done.

The Minister for Agriculture in reply to questions here a fortnight ago said the Committee which was established was investigating markets in Europe and various places and that that was all that was happening. He was doing nothing. I asked a supplementary question: was there any investigation of markets for chocolate crumb and other products in South America? The answer was no. For five years, we have sat here while this great Continent is, like Africa, emerging. It is perhaps three or four decades ahead of Africa. The people of that Continent are potential consumers of many of our milk products. We have not bothered to send anybody there to find out. The Minister for Agriculture admits that across the House. Then we find that we have to face an expenditure of £800,000. My objection is not to the £800,000. My objection—and I want to state it emphatically again—is that there was no attempt to reduce that £800,000 by proper marketing of agricultural products.

Legislation was passed here a month ago in regard to which it was indicated that there was one sales promoter at present in Germany and another in France and that for the moment the man in Germany would devote his attention to that country exclusively. I know the wonderful work being done by various trade associations, such as Córas Tráchtála, who also do a bit in the agricultural line, and by other people, but it is very small, as we admitted five years ago in voting £250,000, of which only £23,000 has been spent. There is a man who for the moment is confining his activities to Germany. He will be very busy there but he will be busier when he spreads his activities all over Europe, with the exception of France.

This £800,000 is just a bill for the taxpayer to pay. Men like Deputy Mullen and Deputy Browne who represent city areas are annoyed by this bill. I would not mind if the bill were twice as big, as long as something was being done which would ultimately reduce it, but nothing is being done and Ministers have admitted that across the House. They say they have passed the matter over to committees. When I said to the Minister for Agriculture that they had washed their hands of it, the Minister said he never needed to wash them, that they were always clean. Was that an answer? Had that any relation to the marketing of agricultural produce? Has that any relation to this bill of £800,000 to defray a loss of £1¼ millions placed before us to-day?

The whole business is an indication of the failure of the Government to appreciate the value of the agricultural industry, of the failure of the Government to try, of their failure to be interested. I believe that on this side of the House we have the duty to tell the people that this is a bill which is thrown on the counter to be paid by the consumer of cigarettes, without any effort by the Government to raise the money to pay it by good agricultural marketing.

I want to explain briefly my position on this Bill because there is no doubt that this proposal by the Government will be looked on as rather frightening, not so much from the size of the bill but because of the fact that the Minister and the Government, by their lack of control of fiscal policy, seem to be living from hand to mouth and from day to day in the hope that something will turn up. There was a tradition in this country that the Budget policy, bad and all as it was, decided the financial policy for the year to come and gave the public some indication of their financial commitments for that year. Gradually, that principal is being distorted by successive Governments and, since the Fianna Fáil Party have been in office for the greater part of the time, they must take the greater part of the blame for the departure from that tradition.

That tradition had the advantage that people knew where they were from day to day, but the recent development indicates that the Government are now asking for money for economic commitments which they did not anticipate would arise. It gives the impression that the Government have no idea of where they are going or where they will find themselves if they remain in office for any period, particularly in the present unpredictable circumstances. We now have this serious development that, within a month or two months of the Budget, the public are faced with another bill which was not foreseen by the Government. That is the most disturbing factor of all. It is indicative either of shortsighted financial policy, bad advice, or else it means that the Government have decided to yield up the power of government to outside forces, that is, to the largest, strongest and loudest group in the community. I am not to be taken as objecting to this concession to the farmers but surely this is no way in which to carry on effective government?

There is a second grave departure from the original policy of Fianna Fáil, that is, the shifting from direct taxation which always gave the appearance of being equitable because it did take the money from the wealthier sections and distributed it amongst those who needed it. That departure has been particularly accelerated in recent years and we now have the reverse policy by which money is raised in the form of indirect taxation. That means that those who are less able to bear the imposition of taxation are made to carry more in order to remove from the wealthy classes the need to pay for the more deserving sections of society.

We do not agree with this departure and we do not think that the wealthy sections of our society are paying enough, that they are paying until it hurts. I do not see why they should not be asked to pay it until it hurts. If one sees the enormous amounts spent on horseracing, on social events of one kind or another, on frivolous expenditure of all sorts, it would seem clear that this country is still a paradise for the wealthier classes. They are still too well off and until they have been made to pay until it hurts, I do not think that we should extend the burden of taxation in the form in which we have it here.

Through this kind of indirect taxation which is gradually being extended over the years, there is a gradual increase in every aspect of the lives of our people. We read of the growing burden of taxation in editorials in the conservative newspapers but what they complain of is an increase of 2d. or 3d. in income tax or surtax, or whatever it may be, but nobody ever seems to complain about the growing increase in indirect taxation which is driving up every aspect of life. Rents have gone up by 17 per cent., postal expenses by 23 per cent., electricity by 25 per cent., education by 22 per cent., potatoes by 32 per cent., fuel and light by 13 per cent., tobacco by 90 per cent. These are only some of the items. They do not represent the complete burden of taxation which has been imposed on the community in order to protect the wealthier section. That is a reversal of the Fianna Fáil policy of the thirties and is a very serious departure from that policy. I do not think we should help in encouraging it.

The increased tax on cigarettes is, of course, immaterial to me because I support the findings of the College of Physicians concerning the association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer. I supported the Government in the Budget statement because I felt it might be an earnest of their intention to take some serious action in regard to this matter. Now I have absolutely no illusions that the Government have any intentions of interfering with the continued use of tobacco or the very dangerous level at which it is now being used.

If the Government were really sincere, really determined to do something about the consumption of tobacco, there are many ways other than this in which they could do something about it. The sad thing is that the necessity to pay one penny more per packet of cigarettes, in the case of most people, will not reduce their smoking because this habit is something which is very difficult to give up. Putting a peneny or two pence on the package is not making any serious attempt to reduce cigarette smoking.

In that way, I feel the Government are being hypocritical. The Minister for Health, of course, is the person who has the greatest responsibility and the most power, but he has refused to take any action in respect to television and radio advertisements to restrict cigarette smoking. Neither has he done anything in respect to the newspapers as we gathered from a reply to a question here today. Presumably through the influence of the tobacco companies, a drug company who merely wanted to spend about £100 a week in all the newspapers to advertise an anti-smoking tablet were not permitted to do so and the Government are taking no steps to do anything about it. This company are putting on the market a drug which could help some people who want to give up tobacco smoking.

If this Government are genuine in their desire to restrict smoking, they should have done something about that. I do not know whether the exposing here of the fact that the newspapers have refused to accept this advertisement will be published and whether the newspapers will accept this tacit indictment of their purely material approach to this matter, but the Government could quite easily have taken steps such as they take in respect to many other problems and situations. They could have insisted on a proper balance being maintained in the case for and against smoking.

It was suggested here that it would be interference with the rights of the individual, if we were to restrict in any way the kind of advertisements appearing in the newspapers, but of course the Government do that all the time. They do it under the Offences against the State Act in respect to the IRA and they do it in respect to many dangerous, addictive forms of drugs which are not permitted to be advertised in the Press. Accordingly, it is patently dishonest of the Government to say, on the one hand, that they are anxious to restrict the consumption of tobacco and that this penny on the packet may help, and on the other hand, to refuse to take any of the obvious steps that are being taken even by the British Tory Government who, conservative and all as they are, have issued handbills and posters and are making some attempt to deal with this problem.

The whole lurching policy of the Government from one side of the road to the other is particularly worrying in view of the findings of recent Government-sponsored commissions who investigated the economic strength of the country prior to our going into the toughest competition any social age has entered into, the European Economic Community, and surely no group of people in public life have had a more downright, cold and objective assessment of the position than our industrialists who now, after 40 years of activity, have had to face the verdict they now face. The Government must face it, too—they must face the fact of bad government on a phenomenal scale.

I do not propose to deal with this at length because I hope we shall have an opportunity of discussing it on a debate on the Common Market soon, but if you look at any aspect of life in society here, you will find evidence of that bad government. We have had the report in relation to the small western farms which says they are mostly uneconomic and that something must be done about them. This is after 40 years of self-government. We had the devastating report from the advisers of the Government —the Commission on Industrial Organisation—in which there is a condemnation of the failure of those in industry who, over the past 40 years, failed even to understand the significance of the imminence of their own elimination in this competition they are now facing.

These people do not appear to understand that they are on a trapdoor and that any day it will be jerked from under them. They seem to be incapable of understanding what is ahead of them and the only proposal being put forward by the Government is that we should give more money. Having been protected for years by tariffs from outside competition in order that they might produce for export, which they have failed to do, they did, on the other hand, set up monopolistic and restrictive trading practices among themselves so that they would not have even domestic competition. Now they are sitting there like mummies facing the most appalling competition from central European cartels and do not appear to have moved into any significant action, according to the Minister's own advisers.

This is something which, as time goes on, will really bear out what we have been talking about for ten years at least—the failure of the Government to establish any planned economy or to organise society for the community as a whole instead of supporting the establishment of a minority of wealthy industrialists. This is the time when the politicians who have been responsible for this policy must sit there and face the consequences of their own lack of action, of their lack of patriotism over the years. That is a very serious charge to make against the generation which was associated with so many of the outward signs of patriotism— a group of politicians who later sat and watched the denudation of vast tracts of their country, the emigration of upwards of 1,00,000 people over 40 years, the continuous incidence of seven, eight and nine per cent. unemployment, the fact that most of our social services—our health services, our social welfare services— are grossly inadequate, and the virtual neglect of all our people.

That is the sum total of the bill you people have readily and gladly paid with your eyes wide open. You have seen what is going on around you much more clearly than I possibly could. You have been in Government and you know these things in a far more concise way than I. You suffered the denudation of our whole society, the inadequate economy and the inadequate national income, which insists on your putting on these fiddling taxes on tobacco, rents and rates, posts and telegraphs and so on. That is the only way out of your difficulties because you refused to accept that what was basically required here was a dynamic and fundamental change in our whole fiscal and economic policy. In your own self-interested way, your first concern was the wealthy minority whom you have now latterly come to represent. Up to your last days or weeks or months of office—because once we go into the Common Market, this Dáil has lost any of its autonomy or right to make final decisions in the most important matters—you are still continuing to protect the wealthy minority at the expense of the majority.

As far as we are concerned, we do not propose to support the Government in this. We do not think we should help the Government at this stage to create a sort of wonderland prize-giving ceremony for all these industrialists who, over the years, have been protected by the Irish people and supported by them with great loyalty and with the hard cash needed to assist them in one way or another, but whose only reply was to create the restrictive trade practices and high prices we have seen in business over the past 30 or 40 years. We do not think these people merit any prizes or any pat on the back. It is probably too late now and there is very little that can effectively be done by the Government. For a time, things must get very much worse and then, after that, we can only hope that it will be possible to create a properly planned socialist economy which, if it had been done 30 or 40 years ago as James Connolly had said, would have left us now in the position of Sweden, who can consider whether she will be associated with or a full member of the Common Market, or even opt out if she wants to.

There is no reason why our people could not be in the same position. We had the intelligence, the ability, the skill, the craftsmen, the technicians, the technocrats. The brains and ability other peoples have, our people have in abundance, too. When I talk about Irish industry, I want to make it quite clear that this is no indictment on my part of the technicians, craftsmen, and other individuals involved in Irish industry. I was referring to the method of creating a national income which would allow us to look after our old people properly, to treat the sick properly, to educate the young properly, to let our people live in a reasonable standard of comfort, a standard of comfort that would pervade the whole of Ireland and not be confined, as it is at present, to a small minority of selfish people who, having sat around and seen the best part of a million of our young people leave the country, because of this selfishness refused to take the obvious steps to deal with it. In my view, the Minister and his colleagues are in as big a mess as it is possible for any Government to get into. It is our belief that we should allow them to stew in their own juice.

It seems to me, listening to the various Fine Gael speakers, that they are criticising the steps taken by the Government to give relief to the dairy farmers by the payment of moneys for milk delivered to the creameries. They have been accusing Fianna Fáil of some kind of political expediency when it is quite obvious to any reasonable person that what has happened is that the Government found themselves faced with a situation not directly of their own making and took steps to deal with it. If Fine Gael think these steps should not have been taken, they should say so frankly. This line of argument has been used mainly to distract attention from the other aids to the agricultural community in the Finance Bill.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Fine Gael are trying to cast a smokescreen over the other provisions in the Finance Bill, such as Section 9, which provides for a reduction in the tractor tax from £8 to £2 10s. and the other provisions to give rates relief. Many provisions have not been referred to so far and I take it all are under discussion. There was criticism of the abolition of the entertainments tax. I am sure other Parties have had the same experience as we have had. Various units of Fianna Fáil used to rely on dancing and ceilithe to keep themselves financially sound. I know that in Dublin South-West at least the possible profit margin for the investment involved is now very much reduced. The various political Parties run these dances in other counties and I am sure they all have had the same experience as we have had. It is also true that charitable organisations and other groups have turned to different forms of entertainment in order to raise funds. This is regrettable. A number of the leading Dublin ballrooms, where there used to be dances every night and where a great number of people were employed in catering and, up to now, in the bars, are not now getting full-time employment. They are being employed only on certain nights. From that point of view, the reduction in taxes is fully justified. If the provisions of the new Intoxicating Liquor Act are fully implemented, I think it will be even more justified.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

Whatever arguments may have been made regarding the abolition of the entertainments duty, they cannot be borne out by anybody who has any experience of commercial ballrooms in the city. The clubs have found it difficult to raise funds by this type of activity. This has led to ballrooms reducing the number of dancing nights and in that way reducing employment, not only for musicians but for other workers also.

No reference has been made to the provisions in Part 3 of the Finance Bill where, to my mind, the proper spirit has been shown by the Minister in maintaining the buoyant situation in Irish industry. He has taken into account our requirements and he has implemented very speedily a recommendation of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. This approach has been evident in all the Minister's Budgets from the beginning. Not once was he faced with the situation that he had to face in his first Budget when he found that accounts were balanced largely by the sale of Government securities.

I agree to some extent with Deputy Esmonde in connection with death duties. If the Minister has the figures available, I should like to know how much, on average, is collected in death duties. I believe it is about £3,000,000 but I should like that confirmed. It would be desirable to put another 3d. on the packet of cigarettes and abolish death duties because I am inclined to agree that this is one way of getting wealthy, retired business men to bring their money over here and give us the use of it while they are here. This would enable us to expand in a large way. However, I hope Deputy Esmonde will talk to his colleagues in the Fianna Fáil Party——

That is about as accurate as the rest of the Deputy's speech.

Deputy Esmonde was converting me and I am asking him to convert his colleagues in Fine Gael. I hope he will talk to his colleagues, if this situation should arise of more and more wealthy people coming here to spend their last days in Ireland as a result of some inducement in regard to death duties, and ensure that the people who come will be allowed to buy themselves a house or a small farm on a piece of waste land because I am afraid the attitude of Fine Gael up to now has been——

Nonsense. We introduced the five acre amendment to the 25 per cent. duty: we introduced the reduction of death duty on Irish securities, not you.

There is only one other matter to which I shall refer and this Bill is not as bad in this respect as previous Bills. We are referred to Acts of 1891 and 1935. I should like to see all Acts from now on consolidated into one Act. In Canada, I understand the Department consolidates all the Acts for which the Minister is responsible into one Act every second year. If a start can be made on that here, it would be a good thing.

Perhaps this suggestion should be made on the Estimate.

We are referred back to Section 5 (1) (a) (ii) of the Purchase of Land (Ireland) Act, 1891. I had not time to look that up.

That type of reference is usual procedure.

I agree, but I am requesting the Minister to consider consolidating these Acts. I understand a committee was set up some years ago but never functioned.

This would be a matter for another debate.

As Deputy Corish has given his observations on this Bill, I find myself at a disadvantage. We did not get copies of the Bill. Deputy Sweetman apparently got the only other copy there was and very kindly lent it to Deputy Corish. That being the situation, I trust I shall be forgiven if I go outside the permitted limit of this discussion. I have no option but to refer to some statements that have been made in the debate. I particularly want to make a protest on behalf of the workers I represent against the proposed imposition of another penny on cigarettes. It is very wrong that this should be done in an effort to pander to a section of the community. It was intriguing to witness both Government and Fine Gael speakers vying with one another to obtain credit for giving the milk suppliers this extra penny.

Restoring the penny taken from them.

What I object to is that one section of the people have been pandered to, while a more deserving section have been forgotten. I do not object to milk suppliers getting an increase or a restoration—call it what you like—but I believe it could have been obtained at the expense of the well-off section of the community, the people living on excess profits. Successive Governments seem to have the unhappy knack of loading the responsibility of paying on the working man.

This must be described as a miniature Budget or it could be regarded as a new way out. The Government were in a situation in which they were threatened and they yielded to the threat and conceded this extra penny. It is a pity this attitude was not adopted towards giving relief to social welfare recipients, the people most in need of benefits.

I was surprised to hear Deputy Sherwin's reference to the old age pensioners. He seemed to think that the only people who would be affected by this proposal were people other than old age pensioners. He seemed to be making up a sum and he ended by creating a puzzle. I want to remind Deputy Sherwin that things add up in every way. It cannot be denied that old age pensioners smoke and even if it is only a cigarette or two, even if they are only able to afford to spend a small amount on smoking, they also have to meet the expenses they must incur as a result of other increases. They use electricity or gas and, of course, they eat bread. All these things have increased and they add up.

It must not be forgotten that it is not only the old age pensioner who smokes. The unemployed man smokes; the recipients of workmen's compensation smoke; and the working man and woman smoke. I do not smoke but I very often have heard it said that some working men smoke 40 cigarettes a day. For them that penny increase represents 1/2 a week. That is in addition to other increases which they have experienced. The working man has to pay extra bus fares and it appears to me as if we are shaping for another round of increases because it cannot be overstressed that the reason the eighth round of increases was brought about was to improve the standard of living of the working man and woman. That cannot be achieved by increasing costs.

Deputy Lemass has referred to dances and the removal of taxation, and expressed fears about people losing their employment. He said he was glad to observe that the taxes were taken away because employment would be maintained. It is very wrong to suggest that catering workers who are employed in dance halls still have their employment safeguarded by the removal of this tax. The catering workers' employment is in danger if the new Liquor Bill is passed as it is intended.

Deputy Esmonde made a plea on behalf of the whiskey distillers. It is my understanding that the whiskey distillers are the most conservative people operating in this country. They had every opportunity of improving their products, particularly for foreign markets. A good deal of money has been spent in propagating their wares but they still refuse to compete the way they should with the producers of Scotch whisky. How long more will this attitude be tolerated? They cannot expect a continuance of handouts, if they will not do the job they should be doing. Their old-fashioned techniques must go by the board, and I am satisfied we would have sold more whiskey in the American market if they had taken it on themselves to blend it for the American palate.

The Opposition say the farmers are entitled to this increase of a penny a gallon but they do not say where it should be found. The advantage of the method of raising it adopted by the Government is that there is no increase whatever in the price of butter, which is a big help to farmers. The last speaker referred to sections of the farming community receiving handouts. The dairy farmers are among the hardest working sections of the community, working long hours to earn a living. Other sections of the community were enabled to secure the eighth round of wage increases. They could use strike action but the farmers cannot afford to strike. Deputy Dr. Browne has advocated that the Government should take action to stop cigarette smoking. This penny increase should be a help.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

We were criticised because of the farmers' marches. I remember similar circumstances when Fine Gael were in office. The farmers did not get very much from Deputy Dillon and he told them to have a running jump at themselves. I do not see anything wrong in a Government coming to the aid of people who they thought were entitled to help. The farming community are entitled to such help. The relief in rates is an advantage to the farmers but the penny a gallon for milk is an enormous help because there is no increase in the price of butter. If the penny were imposed and butter went up by 2½d. a lb., there would be an outcry from the far side. This has put them out of tune and they have very little to talk about.

Deputy Dr. Browne spoke about the wealthy minority, and speaks about the farmers as being the wealthy minority, that they can go to race meetings and elsewhere. They are as much entitled to go there as anybody else. He seems to have the cure for everything. He seems to think there should be no taxes at all. He says everything could be done overnight if he were in Government. We all know, of course, that he will never have a chance of being in Government again, let alone forming a Government, because anybody who had any dealings with him before will never vote for him again.

I should like to know whether Fine Gael intend to say "Yes" or "No" to this. Will they agree that the farmers are entitled to this penny? Fine Gael representatives on committees of agriculture are saying that the Government are responsible for this penny on the gallon. The Government are not. It is Bord Bainne which was set up to look after the interests of the farmers.

"A rose by any other name."

Fianna Fáil have not got a majority on Bord Bainne. There are only three members appointed by the Government. No one can say that the Government are responsible for this. I believe it is wise to put this penny on the 20 cigarettes. It is not an enormous increase. Many people have reduced their consumption of cigarettes in the past six months because of the scare about lung cancer. Fine Gael should tell us definitely whether or not they agree the farmers should get this relief.

I wish to make a very brief intervention for the purpose of expressing my acute disappointment at the complete failure of the Government to introduce any measure of income tax reform. One would have thought that in a Bill like this an effort would have been made to make a start in resolving the fantastic position in which we are working under an income tax code invented by Sir William Pitt 150 years ago, an income tax code quite unsuited to our economy and one which is full of anomalies and injustices. In particular, I should have thought that the Minister would have followed the example of the British Chancellor, who proposes to abolish Schedule A property tax on owner occupiers. Of all the anomalies in our code, Schedule A tax is the most absurd. It presses heavily on the householder, assessing a notional income which he does not in fact enjoy.

We are very ready to copy the British when they make changes in their tax code which have the effect of tightening up loopholes or increasing the burden on the taxpayer. We are very slow, however, to copy them when they set about amending this archaic and obsolete income tax code. It is a striking paradox that the British Chancellor can see his way to abolishing this absurd Schedule A tax, but our Minister for Finance, in the White Paper circulated a year ago, rejected the recommendations of the Income Tax Commission in relation to this Schedule A property tax, a tax which is most expensive and horribly unwieldy to operate. I do not wish to go into the matter in great detail, but I urge on the Minister that we, too, must adopt a non-conservative and non-reactionary approach and set about reforming our income tax code.

Under Schedule E, wage and salary earners are paying far more revenue than is equitable. They are the one section of the community, particularly since the introduction of PAYE, who have no way out of the tax net, the one section whose employers have to act as their collectors. Other taxpayers have tax fiddles of one sort or another. Many sections are legally exempted. The extent to which wage and salary earners are fleeced is something about which we should never tire of complaining. Before the eighth round increases, the tax returns for last year showed that wage and salary earners had contributed approximately £11,000,000 to tax revenue, an increase of nearly 100 per cent. as compared with five or six years ago.

The tax rules in relation to wage and salary earners are most onerous, most exacting and most unfair. The Minister indicated, in reply to a question some time ago, that the Commission, in their final report, had dealt with the question of the impact of tax rules on wage and salary earners. I hope he will not treat the recommendations of the Commission in regard to these people in the same way as he has treated the recommendations of the Commission in regard to the Schedule A property tax on owner occupiers.

With regard to the financing of the Government's capital programme, the Minister indicated some time ago that he was going to have a look at the position of State companies, possibly as a means of solving some of his capital problems. At the annual banquet last year of the Dublin Stock Exchange, he announced he was going to dispose of shares in those companies. When pressed for information here, he said he had not really studied the set-up and had no firm proposals to make. I feel very strongly that it is a grave mistake to adopt a doctrinaire approach to this question of our State companies. Somebody recently found out that we have quite a number of them and the view seems to be that we should get rid of them.

The only State companies in which the public at large will take shares are those which are making profits. If the State could get rid of its shares in C.I.E., or some of the other companies which are losing money, that might or might not be a good thing. It would be very wrong for the State to part with its control of companies which are losing money but which are established for social purposes. It would be wrong for the State to part with its shares in companies such as the Irish Sugar Company. It would be a very retrograde step to permit that company to fall into the hands of stock exchange speculators. I hope the Government have no plans in mind involving any diminution of State control over such companies.

We had hoped to get from Fine Gael whether they were for or against paying the farmers this penny a gallon on their milk. So far, they have roamed all around the question. The last speaker, while doing away with property tax, did not want any tax on the wage and salary earner. I do not know where his own "screw" would come from by the time he had finished with all the others. I wonder how far Fine Gael are directly responsible for the condition in which we now have to find ld. a gallon for the farmer? The evil that men do lives after them. I have recollections of certain manoeuvres carried out by the inter-Party Government about the end of 1956. They went over to Britain and made a Trade Agreement there under which £16 a ton was levied on sugar and sugar products. I understand that, since then, that amount has been further increased.

I do not see what that has to do with the Finance Bill, but still——

I wonder what was the total quantity of sugar that was contained in the——

Finance Bill.

——625,000 cwts. of chocolate crumb exported to Britain during the past 12 months?

The Deputy is going into too much detail on this particular question.

I am dealing with what any Deputy here for the last one and a half hours has been interested in, namely, the 1d. a gallon on the milk.

That does not open up a discussion on the agricultural position.

He is trying to sweeten the position.

At least I learned in school that milk was an agricultural product. I know that a pretty considerable quantity of milk does go into chocolate crumb. Those gentlemen opposite are responsible for a levy on the sugar portion of all of it entering Britain.

It still has nothing to do with the Finance Bill.

I wonder how much of the £1,000,000 has to be found for that? I wonder how much of the portion of the levy put on now by An Bord Bainne has to be paid to the chocolate manufacturers to cover the British levy on sugar——

That would seem to be a matter for the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

It is purely a matter of finding this £1,000,000. That is the main issue. If we had not had to pay the money that has been paid to Britain during the past 12 months on chocolate crumb and sugar exported into Britain from this country, we would have no occasion to come here to look for an extra £1,000,000 which must be found now for the milk producers.

It does not arise on the Finance Bill. The details into which the Deputy is going would relevantly arise on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

I should like to put to you that the reason for the introduction of this extra Estimate is that 1d. a gallon has been put on the Irish farmers' milk. I am pointing out that a large portion of that 1d. a gallon has to go to pay the levy on chocolate crumb entering Britain which contains a very large proportion of the Irish farmers' milk.

The Deputy is repeating himself.

That is the position in regard to this Estimate. I do not wish to go on, as I am entitled to go on, to discuss everything in the Budget under this. I do not want to go into that. I want to go into what is concerned here. I do not want to talk about income tax or the tax on dance halls. I want to talk about what is directly concerned in this Estimate.

But it is not an Estimate—it is a Finance Bill, not an Estimate.

Now, listen to that financial genius who succeeded in two and three quarter years, I think, when he was Minister for Finance, in putting this country into such a position that he killed more old age pensioners from fright than we shall ever know. They died in fear that they would not get their weekly money. He is the genius who completely destroyed any confidence in the finances of this country. Having done that, he ought now to give us the charity of his silence.

After that erudite exposition, I shall go for my tea.

That is the trouble. Every briefless lawyer comes in here if he cannot get a job outside. They are stuck in here and they are a general nuisance.

The Deputy should not refer to any member of this House as a briefless lawyer.

"The bad punter" would be a better description.

Goodnight. If we examine the reasons why this extra Estimate had to be introduced and if we examine the matter in the light of other reliefs that should be given and were not given, we must come down immediately to what I have already alluded to as one of them. As I say, the evil men do lives after them. The absolute negligence and ignorance with which Deputies opposite went to make a bargain, not knowing what they were doing, is now reflected in the 1d. a gallon on the farmers' milk. That is the root of the trouble.

When he is replying, I should like the Minister to tell us what proportion of this £1,000,000 being levied today is going directly to the chocolate crumb manufacturers. We are entitled to that information and I want to get it. In view of the activities of the inter-Party Government during the period directly previous to the date on which Deputy Sweetman threw up his hands and cleared out, we are entitled to that information. This is one of the direct results of all that. There is no use in evading the question. It is there before us.

When Deputy Dr. Browne was speaking here in connection with pandering to a well-off section of the community, and when Deputy Mullen was proceeding on the same line, I waited until now to point out to them that the dairy farmers have got no increase in price for their product for a number of years. The House constituted Bord Bainne and gave them certain powers and certain farming organisations and certain dairy organisations got representation on that body to the extent of five out of eight.

If there is a loss of £3,000,000, inevitably the farmer's share is £1,000,000—one-third. My personal opinion is that 1d. is not enough. I say that quite frankly here. One penny is not enough in view of the eighth or ninth round increase about which we hear so much talk. We are grateful to the Minister for certain reliefs in the Budget, but if we go into the Common Market we will have to go in on level terms with our competitors, and our competitors are paying no rates on agricultural land.

That question does not arise on the Finance Bill.

Unfortunately, it arises very much for all concerned.

The derating of agricultural land does not arise on the Finance Bill.

I am sorry to inform you, Sir, that it does.

The Deputy is entitled to his opinion but he may not pursue the subject.

I am alluding to it very definitely. I am calling attention to the fact that this £1,000,000 is intended for the relief of a section of the agricultural community and I am dealing with other reliefs to which they are entitled, in my opinion.

The Deputy should not repeat himself.

I am not repeating myself; I am giving you an explanation. Those are the matters we have to face and whether in this Budget or the next Budget, they will have to be faced.

The next Budget, about next August?

The next Budget will have reliefs.

Mr. Ryan

Does the Deputy mean there might be a change of Government?

Who would accept the Deputy in a Government?

Mr. Ryan

The electorate.

Are they going to have a "go" at that? Is that the idea?

Anytime the Opposition want to go to the country, we are happy to go.

Could we discuss the Bill before the House instead of this blessed nonsense?

The next time I will miss a few more faces.

Deputy Corry, on the Finance Bill.

I do not wish to hold up the House. I think I have made the only speech which was relevant to the Bill. I was hoping that I could bring Deputies back to the subject before the House and not have them roaring about income tax, and someone else talking about something else. I like to talk about the issue that concerns us here. Plainly, are the farmers entitled to get this £1,000,000?

There is nothing about that in the Bill we are discussing.

There is nothing in it about what was discussed here tonight.

There is nothing about milk in the Bill.

I know there is not. Does the Deputy know what it is for?

If the Deputy does, I am satisfied. There is at least one intelligent Deputy here.

I should like to clarify one or two points made by Deputy Fanning and Deputy Corry in criticism of some of Deputy Dr. Browne's contribution. Let me make it quite clear that Deputy Dr. Browne and I are in full agreement with putting the dairying business on a proper and secure basis which will give a good return to the farmer as the producer, and at the same time, give a good processed commodity to the consumer at a reasonable price, in addition to making available that product or various products at competitive prices in the markets which are available to us in other countries.

What we criticise—and I think we are entitled to do so—is the attitude adopted by the Government in giving to the farmers what they regard as their just due. Why should it be decided in this sudden manner to penalise the poorer section of the community in order to give what is necessary and right to the section of the community known as the dairy farmers? I have not heard anyone criticise the idea of aid where aid is necessary. The recent Budget was for a sum of over £160,000,000 and surely a Government who were looking further ahead than two or three months would have been in a position to make the necessary provision within a Budget of that size to meet commitments of the nature which we are now asked to meet by further taxation to the extent of £800,000 on the individual in the State who smokes.

Surely it was possible to see far enough ahead in the Budget two months ago to make the necessary provision for the relief of the dairy farmers? If the Government were not in a position to look two months ahead, what hope have we of success from such a Government on major issues like the Common Market? If it was not possible for the Government to make sufficient adjustments within a figure of £160,000,000 to enable them to pare off £800,000, they should not be in office.

I do not think the public will have any confidence in the Government after to-night's work. They will not know the day or the hour when further petty taxations and further petty Budgets will be imposed upon them with a plausible story from some shortsighted Minister that it is necessary to meet certain commitments and that it is wrong for the House to refuse them. We had the position where the Government faced trouble with the ESB and they brought the House back to impose penal legislation rather than admit a just claim. By the time the House had finished with that proposed legislation the teeth were gone from it and the Government had to give in.

We had next the incident of the Garda Síochána where they looked for what they were entitled to and when they did not get it, they took the necessary action. As a result, the Minister had to be saved from the results of his own folly by people outside this House. The result was that the Government caved in again. We had the position with regard to certain section of industrial workers, and indeed the Civil Service, where like actions were threatened and we had a cave-in on the part of the Government again.

Within the last week, we had a further threat against the Government by a weak section of the community, if you like, namely, the subpostmasters. We know that behind the scenes the Fianna Fáil Party worked and promised and guaranteed "your case will be met if you withdraw and end the strike." So that all the way down the line, this Government, when the pressure was put on them, yielded. They have not yielded gracefully. What have we got in this particular case? We have the situation that a number of Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party, who are in a very dangerous position politically in the constituencies in the dairy areas, put the squeeze on the Government and said: "Do not have a strike; do not allow this to develop."

I say to the Minister for Finance that he was not doing his job, especially when he has such a first-class group of administrators and civil servants who are able to see further ahead than he is, in not seeing that he needed more money in June or July or in August in order to meet what the dairy farmers are entitled to demand. Why could he not have done that then? Is provision not made in all Budgets for over-estimation? Was it not possible for the Minister to get this £800,000 by allowing for over-esti mation in Budget Estimates? Could he not find that £800,000 in the £162 million without coming to this House? But there is a significant reason for it. There is a significance attached to bringing this measure before the House and the same significance was attached, in the course of the Budget debate, to the spotlight given to the agricultural rebate.

The Government said: "We are handing out over £2,000,000 extra to the farmers." Now the farmers are to be spotlighted again and the public are to be told: "You have to pay this because the farmer needs it." In other words, anything the farmer gets has to be shown up clearly to the public: the farmer is always looking for something. That is the aim of the Government but when aid is given to the industrialist, there is not a word about it except a few technical sentences buried in the various sections of the Budget. There is not a word about the one hundred and one different types of help given to every tinpot industrialist who comes here from abroad, but if it is the farmer who gets the help, the public must be told that the farmer is not capable of running his business so we have to subsidise him. I am using words which the Government should be using. I do not think the farmer is going to accept this handout gracefully from the Government at this stage. It will not bring, shall we say, political kudos to Fianna Fáil at this stage.

I can tell the Minister three or four different ways he could have raised this £800,000 without coming near this House at all. I suggest the Minister should look at the Department of Defence and knock £300,000 to £400,000 off the purchase of obsolete equipment which is a joke at this stage —the Irish people's money being spent on useless equipment for warlike purposes.

I cannot see how that can be debated on the Finance Bill. It is more approprivate to and has been discussed on the Estimate.

I am just referring to how the money could be raised. The Minister could raise £300,000 by knocking that amount off the Department of Defence. I suggest he can knock £100,000 off the new building for the Houses of the Oireachtas. We can do with the House we have. The building is good enough, seeing that Deputies are not able to come in to spend their time here. He could knock £50,000 off the establishment in the Park and he could take back £100,000 on the entertainments tax. That would give him £550,000 for a start, without coming into the House.

If the Minister wants another suggestion, I will give it to him: at this stage he should rearrange the distribution of the extra grant for the agricultural rebate. Through a Question here last week, I found that 800,000 acres are being set. I do not dispute the fact that maybe 25 or 30 per cent. of that land is genuinely set on the basis that hardship will be imposed on widows, or some other genuine cause, but at least 70 per cent. is set which should not be set. Some of it is the best land we have and the Government are handing out £2,000,000 extra in an agricultural rebate to the alleged farmers who are setting their land year after year.

That, again, is a matter for the Estimate.

I am referring to it only in passing because I suggest that if the Minister, instead of handing out over £2,000,000, knocked off £250,000 to £300,000, he would make up the £800,000 he needs. Money would be better spent if an agricultural rebate were given as an incentive to those utilising the land as we would have the production that is required, rather than this disgraceful hand-out to those who are not entitled to get it.

As I say, I would be the first Deputy to support a concrete measure to put the dairy industry on a solid foundation but I am not going to support any higgledy-piggledy measures brought in as a result of pressure and which depend on the weakest and unorganised sections of the community to make the money available. It is a panic measure and it shows this Government are shortsighted when planning or looking ahead. Goodness knows, if planning is not necessary now, I do not know what to say. Over the years in this House, we have listened to the statements by different Taoiseachs that this country worshipped solely at the shrine of private enterprise and different Governments down the years did not believe in a planned economy.

No Deputy on the Fianna Fáil side will deny that was the position over the years, that that was the Fianna Fáil policy, that they were wedded to private enterprise and all their spokesmen had that in election addresses and at chamber of commerce—or chamber of horrors—dinners down through the years. What are they facing now? If the Common Market comes in, they will face a planned, disciplined community, where the planning will be such that they will have little to say in it and where the planning will be carried out by the big business interests and cartels for their own selfish advantage and not for the good of the Community as a whole, so that, in spite of themselves, they will be brought in and disciplined, and forced to plan or to carry out plans that will be imposed upon them. Would it not be a much more practical proposition if the Minister for Finance came in here and told us: "I want £2 million in order to explore and develop the market for processed milk; I want that money for the purpose of building up trade organisations in the newly emergent nations in Africa; I want it to have our shipping lines ready and our trade channels secured and the various intricate organisations set up so that our processed milk in its various forms can be sold to these countries"?

Will this penny extra the people are being asked to pay at this stage help in any way our exports of processed milk? Every time we export processed milk in any form, it is a benefit to the farmer—a far better benefit to him, in the long run, than the immediate rise of a penny which he will receive and for which, in the eyes of the public, he will be condemned. That condemnation will be wrong, I believe, but the criticism will be levelled and that is the argument that will be put forward—that the farmer is always looking for money. The trouble is that no effort is being made to get markets for the farmer.

Such detailed discussion would arise on the Estimate.

Deputy Byrne mentioned that the Minister has sounded off down the country recently on a number of occasions that he was contemplating allowing State-sponsored companies into the hands of shareholders. Deputy Byrne is on record here, and I would like to say how much I like his approach to that matter. He mentioned that companies like the Sugar Company and other successful State enterprises should not in any circumstances be allowed on the stock exchange so that private individuals would be able to exploit a successful venture on the part of the State which, for the present and for the future, should be for the benefit of the community as a whole, not for the limited section who would be shareholders.

All I hope is that the policy outlined by Deputy Byrne is the policy of his Party. We have not had an indication from the Minister so far of the companies which are likely to be released from State control. I do think that the Minister should be told in no uncertain fashion in this House by those Deputies who are opposed to the idea—he should be told here and now rather than after the damage has been done. It is only fair to have it recorded that the State and semi-State bodies in Ireland are practically the only ones which have proved successful in the past 30 years, as far as industrialisation and employment are concerned. Without them, our industrial fabric or set-up would be very poor indeed and it would be the last straw at this stage to suggest that these people who frequent stock exchanges and who look upon themselves as experts in the field of private enterprise should be allowed to reap the benefit of the wisdom and experience and knowledge of men who put their talents at the disposal of the State for so many years.

In actual practice, no matter what may be said, there is no such thing as true private enterprise in Ireland at all. There is not a concern I can think of that has not got its hand or any group that has not got its tentacles as far as it possibly can into State funds for aid, or is not looking for protection for its products. It is a pity they would not be more honest about it and say that they are not able to stand on their own legs. We have one first-class example—the distilling industry. Money has been made available here in Finance Acts over the past five or six years to the tune of £80,000 of the Irish taxpayers' money to enable the distillers to sell Irish whiskey in America. And these are the people who were lauding private enterprise, a group who were asked in 1954 and 1955 to pool their product, bring over foreign and American chemists here until they could produce a blend that would suit the American palate. What did they say? "We think our Irish whiskey is the best in the world and we are not going to change it." The customer is the man who must be satisfied. The proof of it is that the State money that has been spent in the past five or six years on a campaign to sell Irish whiskey in America was a waste. There has been no break-through, no matter what Deputy Briscoe, or anyone who comes from America, says. Most of the whiskey that went to America was never sold. It was given out at parties all over the place.

This would be a matter for the Estimate.

I refer to it because we are asked in the Finance Bill to provide money to help these poor distillers to sell Irish whiskey. I shall refer to it no more.

Finally, on the milk problem, I feel that there is a tremendous fund of goodwill in certain African and Asian countries towards Ireland, that they are prepared to buy our products, especially milk products in various forms. Why can we not make an attempt to sell it? Why have we to listen to Deputy Corry here year after year talking about what he describes as "Formosian sugar"? We have Deputy Corry blaming this penny Budget on an inter-Party Government who were not in office since 1957. I am not standing up for the inter-Party Government but I do think there is no one foolish enough in Deputy Corry's constituency at this stage to believe that the reason this measure is brought in is any action by the inter-Party Government five or six years ago. Instead of bringing in measures like this, the Government should utilise the services of Bord Bainne or any Board they like at this stage, in the words of Fianna Fáil themselves years ago, "to get cracking".

Would it not be a far better proposition to utilise some of our limited shipping for direct communication with those countries that will take our goods? Would it not be a far better proposition to use Irish shipping to carry our milk products in various forms to the new countries in Africa, Ghana and Nigeria in particular, instead of having Irish shipping, as it is at the moment, out on hire at the four corners of the earth? Within the past three months, I have seen photographs——

The Deputy is getting away from the Finance Bill.

It is on the question of the penny levy on milk. I shall not go further into it, except to say that it would be a far better proposition to utilise the shipping that is now at the service of other nations and on the hire of which we are making a few pounds, as our direct transport link with those countries that would buy our milk products. If money were needed from this House for planning that operation, there would be no doubt at all about the support which would be given from all sides of the House.

As far as our small group is concerned, we oppose the idea of penalising further the weaker section of the community by asking them to pay for what is necessary and what is right, as far as the dairy farmer is concerned. The Government will not get away with the suggestion that certain Deputies in Dáil Éireann think the farmer is well off, that he should not get anything. That is the type of story that Deputy Fanning, Deputy Corry and other Deputies undoubtedly will expound, with the blinds down and the doors locked, at the little local cumann meetings when they get away from this House: "A lot of Deputies in Leinster House do not like the idea of the farmer getting anything. They think the farmer is too well off."

It is tragic at this stage that an attempt should be made to put that type of propaganda across on the farmers—dairy farmers or others. In Cork and particularly in Kerry and, indeed, in Tipperary, the vast majority of milk producers are small and medium-sized farmers and they are entitled to assistance. They certainly should not be put up as a cockshot in this House. It is very unfair of the Minister for Finance to come in here within a short period of his Financial Statement and say: "I am being held up to ransom by the dairy farmers. I need this money in order to meet commitments." The Minister knew two months ago that if a case was to be made in June, that case was made in April when the Budget was being prepared, and in March, and he could have done it then. If he did not know it, then he did not know his job as Minister for Finance and neither did the Minister for Agriculture know his job. I am afraid my latter deduction is the correct one.

On that ground, I would ask the Government as soon as possible to go to the country. I would ask the Government—and I am perfectly serious —to go to the country so that we will have stability brought about within a period of five years. I have no doubt that the next election will be only the forerunner of an election that will be held a short time afterwards, but I do think we should hasten the day on which that series of elections will be over and Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael will be together on the one side of the House, instead of opposing each other for the purpose of getting office in turn at different stages when an election takes place. This country cannot afford that, when issues such as our entry into the European Economic Community face us.

I would ask the Government at this stage to go to the country and let such an issue be decided within the scope of the bigger issue, namely, whether Ireland, at her present stage of development, without knowing the full implications, should be asked to join the most highly developed Community in the world to-day, the European Economic Community. In doing that, the Government will be doing a good job. They should not be afraid of being beaten. They have stayed in the wilderness before. They should not be afraid of letting the people decide what is the best government for the country.

(Interruptions.)

As far as Deputy Leneghan is concerned, I doubt very much if at this late stage Fianna Fáil will accept him.

It is nauseating and disgusting at times to hear people from one side of the House shouting at people on the other side as to what they did during their term of Government and the other people shouting back, instead of having the best ideas of both Parties being put forward in the interest of the country, not of any section.

I am glad to see the hardworking dairy farmers getting an increase of a penny a gallon on milk. They deserve even more. Anybody who knows anything about the work they have to do will not grudge it to them. What I object to is the method employed to raise the money in order to give them this £800,000. It is a fact, no matter what has been said here about the ill effects of smoking, that cigarettes or tobacco are as necessary to many people as food. The imposition of an extra penny on cigarettes hits a section of our people who are least able to bear it. There should be other means of getting this money, and there are other means. I suggested during the debate on the Budget that there should be a purchase tax on non-essential commodities. People who buy non-essentials are able to pay for them. The money could be raised by a purchase tax on non-essential commodities.

We are in the peculiar position that we are the only portion of a country in the world that has not charge of its own finances. Another nation, a sister country, can dictate our financial situation. In Great Britain, for some time prior to an election, money can be made available to such an extent as to allow those in power to say the people never had it so good and within a year or so after the election, credit is restricted once more and money is in short supply. We in this country have no power over our finances. We invest money in Britain at 2½ per cent, and the Government can borrow at 6 per cent. The result is that the Government have to pay £20 million a year in interest, apart altogether from what the local authorities pay. Finance is the breath of freedom. Unless we have charge of our own finances, we can never make any progress.

It is time our people came together instead of shouting at one another across the floor of this House as to what was done by the inter-Party Governments and what was done by Fianna Fáil Governments. If things do not improve, I am afraid a day will come—some of us may not see it —when another type of Government could take over and there would be very little opportunity to say anything then. We should do everything in our power to prevent such a happening in this country. It is something that would destroy our Christian civilisation.

There is very little more I want to say on this matter, except that I object to the method employed to raise this money to pay the extra amount to the farmers. It could have been raised in another way. Any Deputy who wishes to go around this city can see the non-essential goods that are being sold and the super-salesmen who are going around selling them to the people. The people who buy these non-essential goods should have to pay for the increased prices to the hardworking farmers.

The last speaker has stuck to the last plank of the Clann na Poblachta programme in saying that we have no control over our own finances, but the sooner he drops that plank, the better.

It is a fact.

It is not a fact.

Nobody knows it better than yourself.

Deputy McQuillan closed a very insincere speech by saying that he would like to see a general election. I am quite sure he would not. Deputy Sweetman opened by saying that we should try to save the extra charge and not put on extra taxation to get it. I went to great pains indeed to produce the Budget and to give what I thought was a true estimate of revenue and expenditure for the coming year. When I presented that Budget to the Dáil, I did not see that there was £1,000,000 to spare and therefore, when this came along, I decided that the money should be raised by taxation and the Government agreed with me.

We are accused of changing our minds. There are two actions with regard to the penny levy on milk. Everybody knows about these but Fine Gael have tried to confuse them. As usual, they are trying to mislead the people. An Bord Bainne have certain statutory obligations to fulfil and they have to levy one-third of what they believe would be paid in export subsidies during the year. They have done that. It must be remembered that An Bord Bainne were set up as a result of the recommendation of a committee which examined the whole business and which was largely composed of milk producers. The Bill was passed by the Dáil and there is no use in Deputy O'Sullivan saying that they had an objection to the levy section. If they had such an objection, they did not register it. Fine Gael cannot convince me that they are shy about calling for a division, when they feel that one is necessary. Indeed, they frequently call for a division when they feel that they will gain something from it. All Parties passed the Bill setting up An Bord Bainne. An Bord Bainne were carrying out their statutory obligation and the Minister for Agriculture was quite right when he said that he was not going to do anything about that levy.

We have stood by our responsibilities. We voted for the Bill when it was going through; we knew what was going to happen and when they put on the levy we said that we must support the Bord in doing that. Fine Gael, as usual, ratted. They supported the Bill but when they saw something that was unpopular, they turned against it and tried to blame the Government for it. The Government are not responsible for that levy. Naturally, we had to take account of the position of the farmers. Strong representations were made to us, but apart altogether from those representations, we saw the point that farmers were going to get a penny a gallon less than last year. We considered that was unfair and we made the adjustment as quickly as we could call a Government meeting together to do it.

In spite of Deputy Donegan's usual spreading of rumours, if you ask the Minister for Agriculture, he will tell you that his car has not been outside Fianna Fáil headquarters for the past five years, let alone for four hours on any night recently. The Government agreed to do this and it was done. We could have much better conditions in this country and could have an opportunity of examining the conditions in the milk industry, if we tried to have honesty and truth about the discussions. We thought, when we came to examine the matter, that farmers should get something more for their milk. Therefore, we gave them a penny more.

That is only what they had before that.

They would be getting a penny less, if we did not give it to them. Deputy Sweetman also thought that it was hardly fair to bring in this taxation under the Imposition of Duties Act. I would agree with Deputy Sweetman that it was hardly contemplated that revenue duties should be dealt with under that Act but we have all been transgressors under that Act. Special duties were brought in under it and these included duties on beer and tobacco as far as I remember.

I may be wrong.

It is a matter in respect of which there is room for a difference of opinion. I admit that it is a very convenient way of doing it.

That is why it should not be done—it makes it too easy.

At the same time, I saw there was an opportunity of discussing the matter. I knew it would be discussed to-day and there will be a further opportunity of discussing it on a special motion which will be necessary before the Committee Stage of the Finance Bill.

Deputy Sweetman had a point about the tax on tobacco and how it is going to work out for the manufacturers, the wholesalers and the retailers. I do not get his point but I want to say this: under the present law, the importers of tobacco, and they are the manufacturers, must pay the tax of one month before the end of the next month except in the month of March. They must pay everything they owe at the end of March.

I do not see how that will work to the detriment of the manufacturers, the wholesalers or the retailers. Whenever there is an increase which the manufacturers decide to pass on, the wholesalers will have notice of it and they can pass on the price to the retailers and they are free to pass it on to the consumers. If there is a higher tax, of course, a bigger capital is involved.

Does the amount of the order take account of that fact?

No, we take 100 per cent. As Minister for Finance, I have not taxed stocks for the past three or four years because it was an old working arrangement that stocks are not When we put on a tax, stocks are not taxed and when we take off a tax, they are not relieved. I admit there is no great prospect of the tax coming down on tobacco. The best estimate I could make of the produce of a tax on stocks would be £40,000.

That is not much.

Deputy Sweetman also accused me of putting a tax on whiskey out of pique. That is not true.

I did not say that. What I did say was that the assistance from Córas Tráchtála was stopped out of pique.

I shall come to that later. Since I had begun to discuss the point about whiskey, I shall continue it now. Since 1953, the retail price of whiskey in Dublin went up by 8d. per glass without any taxation and over the same period, consumption went up by 50 per cent. So it looked to me to be a good target for taxation. As Deputies are aware, since the extra 2d. was put on whiskey, the trade has put on another 2d. Now, as regards Córas Tráchtála, that money was given as an experiment and it did not produce any results. When the distillers decided to reduce the proof, and in that way derive a bigger income from whiskey, I said there was no necessity for me to contribute a mere £60,000 where the distillers could get five times that much from the reduction in proof. If Deputy Sweetman likes to call that pique, he can.

I think there had been an undertaking that that would be carried on for many years.

No; it was for a trial period. Deputy Sweetman also drew attention to the expenditure side of our accounts for the first two months of this year. First of all, on the revenue side, it is very hard to make comparisons for the first couple of months because there may have been, for instance, a lot of over-stocking in anticipation of taxes on tobacco and spirits, so it will take a few months to straighten itself out. The same would apply to the expenditure side. There are, of course, natural increases in expenditure, such as higher interest and the increased pay for the civil servants, and there was the C.I.E. subsidy which was paid this year in May instead of in June.

Approximately how much is that?

£400,000.

It is still a long way off £5,000,000.

I think that at the end of June, it will be possible to make a better comparison.

So we can defer discussion on it until the Minister's Estimate.

With regard to the Industrial Credit Corporation the next balance sheet will give a greater amount of detail with regard to some of the loans made, especially where they went, in a big way, towards the financing of those industries. As a matter of fact I am having considered whether we can do this in another way so that more information can be given by the company themselves. They may give more information in their balance sheet than they did in the past.

Deputy Sweetman also attacked the Government because, during the war, we restricted the supply of barley to the distillers. As far as I know, the distillers have never had any shortage of whiskey for the market. There never was a scarcity.

The Lord protect you!

Look at the amount produced in the past few years. The production has been down but the stocks have gone up.

Ask any distiller.

Why do they not sell what they have?

They were not allowed to sell it.

Why have they gone down in production now?

They were not allowed to sell it.

During the war?

We wanted it for ourselves then.

The Minister knows very well why and if he does not, I suggest he inquire from the gentlemen on his right. They will tell him.

Deputy Sweetman also complained about the increase in bus fares, in ESB charges, and so on. There are two alternatives: either we subsidise these bodies or allow them to pay their way. We have followed the policy of allowing them to pay their way and if we had not, we would be subsidising them and raising the money in taxation. Anyhow, unless you demand that the ESB, the Post Office, CIE pay their way, you will not get very good business management from them. Deputy McQuillan said these companies were the only ones doing any good. If that is so, let them pay what is necessary and if their expenses go up, they must charge more for what they sell, be it bus tickets or electric current.

Deputy Hogan was very critical of our tax code. He believes the income tax payers are over-persecuted. My own belief is that taxpayers other than those under PAYE are not so badly treated. In fact, I think they would like to wangle the State, if they could, and there is no reason why we should not try to get from them what they should pay. It must be remembered that those who pay income tax have an appeal. They, first of all, have an appeal to the Special Commissioners, which is heard in camera. Deputy Hogan would like to see this in public, but I think most taxpayers would prefer to have it done in private. They can then go to the court. That, I presume, would be heard in public.

No; that is in camera, too.

A public hearing could be arranged, if the taxpayer wanted it.

One Deputy referred to the Income Tax Commission. I am glad to see that Commission have presented their final report and I should like to take this opportunity publicly to pay tribute to their work. They sat for five years and had a great number of meetings of both the Commission itself and committees, and it meant that some of the members had to attend a meeting once a fortnight. They had to do a lot of work besides in reading reports and so on. They made many suggestions for reform of the income tax code and a number of these suggestions will be adopted, I think, as time goes on. It is very gratifying, indeed, to find busy public men like these willing to give their time free to a matter of this kind. I should thank my friend opposite for appointing that Commission because they did very good work.

They did a very great public service.

They did. I hope to have the final report printed in the near future. When it is printed and circulated, it will mean there will be about 1,000 pages of print of the findings of that Commission. As I promised when speaking on the Budget, I hope to have a White Paper issued before the next Budget setting out their comments on the various matters raised.

The only other matter I have a note of is Deputy Esmonde's reference to Section 19. He thought that section was due to our discussions so far with the EEC. That is not true. For a very long time, we have been endeavouring to adopt the Brussels nomenclature. We hope within the next year or so to be able to do so. This section gives power to the Revenue Commissioners to adopt the various duties under the Brussels nomenclature. It will be a help to us, if we are going into the Common Market to adopt that system before we go in. The six countries in the EEC already have adopted it, and it will make it easier for us to join, if we adopt it, too.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Tá, 68; Níl, 60.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Corry, Martin J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Cunningham, Liam.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Flanagan, Seán.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Kitt, Michael F.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Meaney, Con.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Richard.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Browne, Noel C.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Burton, Philip.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, Declan D.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Donnellan, Michael.
  • Dunne, Seán.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Spring, Dan.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Harte, Patrick D.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • McAuliffe, Patrick.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McGilligan, Patrick.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • McQuillan, John.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • O'Donnell, Patrick.
  • O'Donnell, Thomas G.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F. K.
  • O'Keeffe, James.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers: Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 27th June.
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