Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jun 1962

Vol. 196 No. 3

Street and House to House Collections Bill, 1962—From the Seanad.

The Dáil went into Committee to consider amendments from the Seanad.

Minister for Justice (Mr. Haughey)

Perhaps I should explain to the House that all these amendments were made in the Seanad at the instance of the Government. Four of them are drafting amendments and the remainder of them are designed to curtail the scope of the Bill in so far as it applies to house to house collections and to modify in some respects the obligations placed on the holders of collection permits.

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 1.

SECTION 1.

In page 3, lines 25 and 26, "in accordance with a licence or permit under the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956, or" deleted and "for a lottery (including a sweepstake) declared by the Gaming and Lotteries Act, 1956, not to be unlawful or to which that Act does not apply, or collecting money" substituted therefor.

This is a drafting amendment. Its purpose is to make it clear that the Bill does not apply to the collection of money for any lottery, including & sweepstake, that is not unlawful.

Mr. Sweetman

For which a permit has been granted, in other words?

Mr. Haughey

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

Under the other Act?

Mr. Haughey

Yes.

Mr. Sweetman

In relation to a lottery for which a permit has been granted, do the people concerned under this Bill have to produce any authority at all?

Mr. Haughey

No.

Mr. Sweetman

How can the authority know that the permit has been granted?

Mr. Haughey

Those people collecting for lotteries are not covered by this Bill at all but they are subject to all the various provisions in the Lotteries Act, in regard to the issue of permits and the production of permits.

Mr. Sweetman

Not for the persons going around—only for the promoters.

Mr. Haughey

I cannot say offhand. All I am concerned with here is to exclude them from this Bill.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 2:

SECTION 2.

In subsection (2), page 4, line 11, "Subject to the provisions of this section," inserted before "An order".

Amendments 2 and 3 go together. They provide that an order may not be made by the Minister for Justice under Section 2 applying the provisions to collections that are for a charitable object which is under the control of a recognised religion and are held in accordance with the laws of that religion. Deputies will remember we had some discussion on this point on the Second Stage. This is really to meet a number of points of view put forward by Deputies on the Second Stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Comtion mittee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 3:

The following subsection added:

"(5) An order under this section shall not apply in relation to a collection that is—

(a) for the benefit of an object that is charitable and is under the control of a religion recognised by the state under Article 44 of the Constitution, and

(b) held in accordance with the laws, canons and ordinances of the religion concerned."

An Ceann Comhairle

Amendment No. 3 is consequential.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 4:

SECTION 8.

In subsection (1), page 7, line 50, "he thinks" deleted and "are, in his opinion," substituted therefor.

This is a drafting amendment in the interests of uniformity. The phrase "in the opinion of" is being substituted for "he thinks".

Mr. Sweetman

Is this an admission by the Minister that he is not able to think?

Mr. Haughey

It is not the Minister who is thinking; it is the Garda officer.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 5:

Section 12 deleted.

This deals with the furnishing of information to the Garda by applicants for collecting permits and by holders of such permits. Subsequent to the discussion we had in the Dáil on this matter, I have reconsidered the position. I am quite clear that there is no need for Section 12 and therefore it is proposed to delete it.

Mr. Sweetman

Is the discretion still left in the chief superintendent, notwithstanding the deletion of the section? Section 12 is a mandatory direction to the chief superintendent.

Mr. Haughey

That is correct.

Mr. Sweetman

But is it clear that he has complete discretion?

Mr. Haughey

Yes, he will have the discretion granted to him under the other provisions of the Bill. Later on, we have another amendment which governs the question of information to be supplied to the chief superintendent about collections which have been held and there his discretion would be modified to the extent that he would have to go to the court and ask the court to authorise him to inspect the accounts.

Mr. Sweetman

We shall leave the matter until we come to that amendment.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 6:

SECTION 14.

In subsection (4) (a), page 10, line 22, "organisation or" deleted.

This is a drafting amendment again in the interests of uniformity.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 7:

In subsection (4) (a), page 10, line 23, "which is" deleted.

This is another drafting amendment.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is consequential.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 8.

Before section 24 the following new section inserted:

"24—(1) Upon application to the District Court by the Chief Superintendent for a locality in which a collection was held pursuant to a collection permit, the Court shall, if either—

(a) the Court is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so, or

(b) a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of Inspector states on oath that he has reasonable grounds for believing that the proceeds or any portion of the proceeds of the collection have been, are being, or will be used—

(i) for the benefit of an object which is unlawful or contrary to public morality or for the benefit of an organisation membership of which is unlawful, or

(ii) in such a manner as to encourage either directly or indirectly the commission of an unlawful act,

make an order directing the person to whom the permit was granted—

(I) to furnish to the Chief Superintendent, not more than one month after the day on which the order is made, a statement in writing showing the total amount collected by means of the collection and how the money so collected was applied and disposed of,

(II) to permit the Chief Superintendent, or any member or members of the Garda Síochána designated by him, to inspect any accounts kept by the person and any receipts or other vouchers relating to the collection.

(2) The District Court shall not make an order under this section unless—

(a) the application therefore is made within six months after the day, or the last of the days, on which the collection to which it relates was held, and

(b) not less than forty-eight hours before the hearing of the application, the Chief Superintendent making the application gives notice to the person to whom was granted the collection permit pursuant to which the collection was held of his intention to make the application.

(3) A person who refuses or fails to comply with the terms of an order under subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(4) A Chief Superintendent, or any member or members of the Garda Síochána designated by him, may for the purposes of an inspection under this section, at all reasonable times enter and have free access to any premises where any accounts, receipts or vouchers to which the inspection relates are kept and may inspect and take copies of, and extracts from, such accounts, receipts and vouchers.

(5) This section shall not apply in relation to a collection that is—

(a) for the benefit of an object that is charitable and is under the control of a religion recognised by the State under Article 44 of the Constitution, and

(b) held in accordance with the laws, canons and ordinances of the religion concerned."

Amendments Nos. 8 and 9 go together. Their purpose is to reduce the obligation imposed on the holders of collection permits to keep accounts and to furnish information to the Garda about the proceeds of the collection. We have come to the conclusion that this provision ought to be modified in such a way as to remove the obligation in regard to keeping accounts and to limit the types of cases where the Garda will have the right to obtain information and carry out inspections. This is the case I mentioned a moment ago. The chief superintendent now will, in effect, go to the court and ask the court to give him an order to make investigations. Otherwise, the holder of the collection will not be required to keep the accounts which we originally envisaged.

Mr. Sweetman

Section 24 gave the chief superintendent certain rights of inspection. The new arrangement gives him the right to go to the court to ask for an order. Is there an obligation all the same on the person who has obtained a permit to keep an account?

Mr. Haughey

Only in so far as he himself considers it prudent to do so. We do not now envisage in the normal way that accounts of this nature would be inspected by the Garda. It was Deputy Michael O'Higgins who directed attention to this matter in the Dáil and to the onerous obligation being placed on holders of collection permits.

Mr. Sweetman

I am entirely with the Minister on the authority to inspect but——

Mr. Haughey

There will not be a statutory obligation to keep accounts. Naturally, a prudent person would keep them.

Mr. Sweetman

That is one of the matters the district court will be entitled to take into account—whether he can or cannot produce accounts.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Haughey

I move that the Committee agree with the Seanad in amendment No. 9:

Section 24 deleted.

An Ceann Comhairle

Amendment No. 9 is consequential.

Question put and agreed to.

Amendments reported and agreed to.

Ordered: That a message be sent to the Seanad accordingly.