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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 3 Jul 1962

Vol. 196 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Finance Bill, 1962—Committee Stage.

Question proposed: "That Section 1 stand part of the Bill."

This section provides for the re-enactment for a further year of the statutory provisions in relation to taxation which were enforced on 5th April last. It is the means whereby we are giving a new chapter of life for yet another year to an income tax code which is over 150 years old, which was designed by a grand old English gentleman in the year 1803. It is such a hardy annual in our Finance Bill that henceforth we should urge our Ministers for Finance to pay some little tribute every year at this time to the memory of Sir William Pitt who designed an income tax code for English conditions 150 years ago. Our reluctance to change that code in any fundamental respect and our extreme conservatism in our approach to tax reform gives one grounds for doubt as to why we really bothered to obtain self-Government.

When one takes a look at provisions such as these, one could validly argue that we do not deserve to have the right to govern ourselves if we just year after year renew British legislation which was never designed with this country in mind and which is clearly obsolete and archaic not only in Irish conditions but in British conditions also. Of all our Ministers for Finance, I regret to say that it seems to me our present Minister for Finance manifests that extreme conservatism which I consider deplorable.

Our tax code is based on the British Act of 1918 which, in turn, goes back to much earlier Acts, the framework of which was laid down by William Pitt over 150 years ago. It bristles with anomalies and injustices. Some of those have been the subject of a report by an Income Tax Commission set up some years ago by Deputy Sweetman when he was Minister for Finance. Most of the recommendations of that Commission have been rejected by the Government in a White Paper circulated by the Minister last year.

The principal recommendation of the Commission which has been implemented was that in favour of a system of pay as you earn for the collection of income tax from wage and salary earners. It was advocated very strongly by the trade union movement in this country and I said at the time we were introducing it that I thought the trade union movement, and the labour movement in general, in the interests of the workers were ill-advised to press for the introduction of pay as you earn in this country. Over the short term it has been in operation, pay as you earn has made it easier for the individual worker to pay his income tax but it has had the second effect of making the worker a much easier mark than ever before for the tax collector so that the Minister finds himself in the position of relying more and more on the workers, the wage and salary earners, for direct tax revenue.

I feel strongly—and it cannot be too often repeated in this House—that the extent to which wage and salary earners are being fleeced for income tax is grossly inequitable in relation to the other sections of the community. It is most desirable that our tax code should be an equitable one, based on justice and fair play, on good Government and on morality, and for as long as we continue to perpetuate an inequitable direct tax code we are leaving many people labouring under a deep sense of grievance, under a feeling that they are pulling their weight while others are not.

The direct tax revenue which is being collected from wage and salary earners under Schedule E of the tax code is continuing to increase year after year. That is in part because wages are going up, but in the year just ended approximately £11,000,000 was collected by way of income tax under Schedule E. Most of that would have been collected before the eighth round increase in wages and salaries was given effect to. Five or six years ago only about £5,000,000 was collected in income tax from wage and salary earners. It is therefore a fact that we are relying out of all proportion to their share of the national income on wage and salary earners for our income tax revenue. They are a section of the community whose employers not only have to act as income tax collectors but on whom the impact of the income tax code weighs very severely.

There is no section of the 1918 Income Tax Act which has been more severely criticised by judicial authorities in Britain and here, and I know it is an old British maxim that equity is a stranger to income tax. It is a maxim which we should be prepared to accept in this country. There is great need for the tax code to be respected by the community at large. One is told by those competent to express opinions on these matters— moral theologians—that there is no obligation on the individual to pay an inequitable or unfair tax and as long as this unfair situation prevails here there is a very grave obligation on the Minister for Finance and on the House as a whole to rectify it.

When faced with this criticism last year the Minister for Finance indicated that his method of approaching it was to reduce the standard rate of tax rather than to effect reforms in the code for one section of the community rather than another. On the face of it, the Minister's approach might appear to be a valid one, but in so far as the suggestion goes that a reduction in the standard rate of tax relieves all sections of the community who are paying income tax—not all sections do pay income tax—the differential position as between wage and salary earners and sections of the business community who are taxed under Schedule D in respect of trade profits favours the latter class. Any criticism of Schedule E tax in Britain must apply with much greater force in this country by reason of the fact that to a far greater relative extent than in Britain we are relying on wage and salary earners for so much of our direct tax revenue.

In particular, there have been many suggestions made as to what form of differential relief we should make in respect of the tax-paying wage earner. I do not propose to go into them now but the Minister must be aware it is possible to argue very much more strongly for a higher rate of relief for wage and salary earners than in respect of other sections. I feel entitled to ask the Minister whether he is aware of these problems and, if he is, what he is doing about them.

There are now nearly 180,000 people paying tax under pay as you earn and while it is true that up to some years ago the number of taxpayers was much more restricted and that therefore it was possible then that the impact did not fall on so many people, the greater number of people labouring under this imposition now increases the Minister's responsibility. The Income Tax Commission have now issued their final report dealing with these problems. That report has not yet been circulated so I am at the great disadvantage of being unable to comment on it. I sincerely hope that if the Commission have recommended reliefs in income tax relating to wage and salary earners the Minister will pay greater attention to them than he has done in respect of the Commission's four earlier reports. As I said, the bulk of the important recommendations of the Commission have been rejected by the Government and we are in the position of having this archaic and obsolete income tax code inflicted on us not only for another year but indefinitely, to all outward appearances, unless our entry into the Common Market makes any significant difference to the position.

In that connection it behoves the Minister to advise the House of what are the likely effects on our taxation and fiscal system which may result from our entry into the Common Market. Article 99 of the Treaty of Rome provides that the Commission of the European Union shall consider in what way the law of the various member States concerning turn-over taxes, excise duties and other forms of taxation can best be harmonised in the interests of the Common Market. The Commission shall submit proposals to the Council, which shall accept them by means of unanimous vote.

When introducing the Budget, the Minister referred very briefly to the fact that he was having a study made in his Department of the effects on our tax laws which might result from our entry into the Common Market. It appears to me that Article 99 relates only to indirect taxation and refers only to the harmonisation of the indirect taxation codes of the various States in the European Union and not necessarily to the tax codes. Harmonisation in this case, perhaps, may be a very different matter. It is a fact that a great deal of intensive work is going on in the EEC not only in relation to indirect taxes but also in relation to direct taxation in studies of various European systems to see how they can be measured up to a single design.

One of the impacts of such an integration may very well be for us a complete change in the income tax base so far as industrial taxation goes, a change which could very well subject our corporate taxpayers, limited companies, to a form of capital gains tax. I say that because it appears to me that in most of the countries in the Common Market at present their tax base, that is the base sum on which income tax is computed for the equivalent of limited companies, is very different from ours. We are assessed on an income basis whereas they are assessed on a nett worth basis, which has regard to changes in the capital position of the company from one year to another rather than to the trading income which the company earns on a revenue basis. That is a form of automatic, built-in capital gains tax. It would cause a great deal of dismay and apprehension among corporate taxpayers here if they felt they were to be subjected to a capital gains tax as a result of our entry into the Common Market. I throw out that point merely as one of a number of urgent problems concerning our entry into the Common Market on which we are entitled to information from the Minister.

It may be unfortunate that the Income Tax Commission has suspended its work and gone out of existence without adverting to the impact of our entry into the Common Market, if we get in, on our tax code. I certainly hope that, if we do get into the Common Market, we will exercise some common sense in relation to taxation. No survey of the tax position here can be made without adequate statistics. Too frequently questions are put down by interested Deputies looking for information on one aspect or other of the tax code and the Minister has to say "I am sorry. The records of the Revenue Commissioners are not kept in such a way as would enable me to answer this question". One asks a question about the cost of collecting Schedule A income tax, for example, and the Minister has to give the preposterous answer that he does not know what the cost of collecting Schedule A income tax is. That position is not good enough. It is a position which could be readily rectified. In his Financial Statement the Minister adverted to the fact that he was installing electronic equipment for collecting tax. I hope that equipment will be used for the analysis and assimilation of revenue returns and that we will get something really informative in the way of an annual report from the Revenue Commissioners. Their present annual report is not sufficiently informative for anyone seriously interested in the matter.

I have other things to say on this Finance Bill, particularly in regard to Schedule A tax, the tax on the owners of residential houses, but as it is the subject of an amendment by Deputy Ryan, my remarks can be deferred until then. The Minister has given every indication that he is going to outdo the British Tories in conservatism so far as tax reform is concerned. No later than a few weeks ago the British Chancellor of the Exchequer was able to indicate that next year he is going to abolish Schedule A income tax on owner-occupiers. The British Chancellor is not in the position the Minister for Finance here is in. He has not had a report from an expert commission recommending the abolition of such a tax, whereas our Minister for Finance has had such a report and has indicated very strongly he is not accepting that report. I would respect the Minister if he were to say he thinks there might be something in the recommendations of the Commission on Schedule A but cannot for the moment, for revenue reasons, implement those recommendations. The fact that he would appear to have committed himself and his successors to a rejection on doctrinaire grounds of the Commission's report is to me a matter of great disappoinment.

I rise merely to put a few facts straight. I am sure the wage and salary earners of the country would be delighted to be here this evening to find they had so many friends in strange places.

There is nothing strange about it at all.

I am afraid they have not the same ideas about tax collection as some of the people who purport to speak for them. It is quite true that the trade union movement and the labour movement campaigned to have a PAYE system introduced here. They agreed, as I agree, that any system of income taxation which is inequitable should be abolished, if at all possible.

If income tax must be paid, surely a system by which it is collected weekly from the wage earner and the salary earner is a far better system than the one which operated previously under which no tax would be collected for perhaps a period of years, and then suddenly, an unfortunate person got a bill for more money than perhaps he might earn in the next six months. On many occasions that happened when someone had got married and was setting up a home, and he found that all the money he had saved for that purpose had to be paid to the income tax authorities. According to the system laid down it was due.

Therefore, in my opinion—and I speak with the authority of the trade union movement—the collection of income tax under the system of PAYE is the only system which is fair to all concerned. It is a fact that many people were getting away with it before this. If income tax has to be paid it should be paid by everyone who has the same income and outgoings. There is no point in having those who can be easily caught paying all the time and those who are, perhaps, earning more and cannot be so easily caught, getting away with it. That was stopped with the introduction of PAYE. While I would like to see income tax abolished if at all possible, and a better system introduced, so long as it must be retained the better system for the working people is the PAYE system.

I want to make a few observations on the report of the Commission on Income Taxation. The Minister indicated in his Financial Statement that he had received the final report of that Commission, and that he hoped to publish it soon. I am not quite clear as to whether or not it has gone to the printers, but I want to make the point that the report should be published as soon as it is printed. It would be wrong for the Minister to retain it until such time as he has had an opportunity of coming to conclusions himself on it, and until such time as the Government had also decided whether or not to implement such recommendations as he might put forward with regard to that report. The sooner we get the report to study and consider what is best arising out of its recommendations, the better for all concerned.

The Minister mentioned in his Budget speech, or on the Second Stage of the Finance Bill, that the report of the Commission now totalled some thousand pages, or thereabouts. I do not know the size of the last volume, but if the Commission has not yet been finally disbanded it would be a great advantage if a summary in one volume—rather than several volumes —of their outstanding recommendations could be made available to the public. It is difficult for the public as a whole to find their way through the maze of what undoubtedly is and must be such a technical document as the Report of the Commission on Income Taxation. In terming it "the maze", I do not want in any way to suggest that they have made their reports to date unduly difficult of assimilation. On the contrary, they have gone, in some instances, so far to attempt to be simple that it is a little difficult to follow what they had in mind. The subject, of course, is a highly complex one, and complicated to the last degree, to be dealt with by an ordinary person. Therefore, a summary in one document of the outstanding points would be of assistance to the general public, apart from those people who may, perhaps, be skilled in the interpretation of the various matters concerned.

Finally, may I say that I want to join in the tributes that have been paid to the members of the Commission on several occasions over the years. I must confess that I realised when the Commission was being set up that I was asking the people to whom I issued an invitation to serve to do something which would involve them in a very heavy sacrifice of time, trouble and energy. The task of examining our income tax code was obviously a very weighty one, and it was obvious from the very beginning that the people who were asked to sit on that Commission were being asked to undertake a burden of very, very considerable dimensions.

The Minister has paid his tribute to them already and I merely want to join with him. I think it is true that there is little understanding in the public mind of the amount of work that was involved in their task, and the painstaking manner in which they went about it. Whether one agrees or disagrees with any of their recommendations one must recognise the merits of the Commission which set a headline for voluntary national service in a task of this sort.

On the whole the State has been extremely lucky throughout the years in the people it has got to serve on one commission after another. Many of them have given an immense amount of time to the task which they were asked to perform. The Capital Investment Committee was another such Commission that I set up myself. While I disagreed with some of their recommendations too, the fact remains that they set about their task in a painstaking manner and a spirit of patriotic service, and that should be acknowledged and honoured just as we should acknowledge and honour the task and the trouble of the Commission on Income Taxation.

I am afraid I must disagree with Deputy Byrne on a few points at least. I do not think he is right in saying that the fact that wage earners and salary earners are paying their income tax through PAYE makes them an easier mark for the Minister. After all, the bigger the number paying income tax the more likely the Minister is to be deterred from increasing income tax, and also the fact that there is a bigger number paying and a more efficient collection makes it easier for the Minister to be satisfied that with what he is getting he would even be able to reduce income tax either by way of reliefs or a reduction of the standard rate.

The Deputy also said that wage and salary earners were paying more than their share of the national taxation. When I brought in the Budget I was attacked by members of that Party, and the Labour Party, on the point that we were taking more than the proportion that should be taken by way of indirect taxation. That, of course, was used as an argument against the increased duties on beer, spirits and tobacco. It is true that a reduction in the standard rate will give a higher aggregate benefit to the high salary earners than it will to the wage earners, but we have not confined our reductions in income tax to the standard rate. When bringing in PAYE, the earned income tax allowance was increased and so was the personal allowance.

But not enough.

That is quite true. The Commission on Income Taxation began by coming to the conclusion that income tax was a good system and the Government agreed with that. The Government, in their White Paper last year, said that we shared the view of the Commission that income tax was, in principle, a good form of tax and must be retained as part of the tax system. Deputy Tully said he would like to see income tax abolished. I am sure very few would not agree with that. The only alternative given so far is a purchase tax and I do not think Deputy Tully would be enamoured of that tax, either.

I do not like any taxes.

That is right.

It is honest, anyway.

The Commission, to give them their due, did, I think, recommend a sort of half-and-half system, reducing income tax substantially and making up the balance by purchase tax. The Government did not adopt that recommendation but it is always there for any future Government to consider.

With regard to harmonisation of taxation in EEC, there are two paragraphs, 113 and 114, on page 52 of the White Paper recently issued dealing with that matter. It is pointed out that nothing definite has been done. They have been working on the matter and I presume they hope to reach some agreement on the harmonisation. That does not go so far as to say that we must have exactly the same tax and the same rate of tax. That would be impossible because some countries will require a little more than others. Therefore, it cannot be done in that way.

We have so far issued all these reports as we got them from the printers. We did not wait for the Government to consider what view they might take of them. As soon as the seventh report comes from the printer, I intend to have it published and distributed and I have already undertaken to have the Government decide on the various recommendations before the next Budget. I presume there will be a White Paper issued as was done in 1961, on the remainder of the recommendations.

Would the Minister try to issue it at a reasonable time before the Budget and not shortly before it?

Sometimes one is compelled to wait to see what the Budget may be before one comes to consider it.

It is not a difficulty of tax anticipation.

There is a summary at the end of the final report of all the recommendations——

That is the one about to be printed?

Good. That makes it easier to follow.

There are also in this final report which has not yet been published, recommendations in regard to allowances and they, of course, will be at the disposal of Deputies in a very short time, I think, and will come up for consideration by the Government before this White Paper is issued.

One of the benefits—I might put it that way — of the electronic system when it comes in will be to make it possible to supply useful statistics in regard to income tax. These statistics will be published with the annual report of the Revenue Commissioners so that everybody will have the benefit of the figures produced.

Question put and agreed to.
NEW SECTION.

Mr. Ryan

I move amendment No. 1:—

Before section 2 to insert a new section as follows:—

Notwithstanding anything contained in any other enactment, as and from the passing of this Act, premises not exceeding £30 valuation, in which an owner-occupier normally resides shall be exempted from Schedule A tax on owner-occupation and residential premises exceeding £30 valuation shall be similarly exempted on the owner-occupation element in the first £30 valuation, the exemption to apply to the residential portion only of the premises not exclusively occupied as a residence.

This first amendment which we suggest in the form of a new section is taken almost word for word from the second report of the Commission of Income Taxation. It is a recommendation from the Commission which received the almost unanimous support of the Commission and was endorsed by many people who submitted evidence to the Commission itself.

I think it appropriate at this stage to refer to some of the authorities which supported the recommendation, but, before doing so, I should like to explain briefly the effect of the amendment. At present, we have the archaic income tax code to which Deputy Byrne referred and which he very properly castigated as being a code which we have on our souls as a national original sin and which we have left in our economy while those who gave birth to the income tax code in question have to a large extent erased the sin from their own souls.

Under this archaic code, a peculiar situation arises in this country. We encourage people to save in many respects. If a man keeps money on deposit in a bank, he will pay no income tax on the first £25 of interest he earns on that deposit. If a man has money invested in saving certificates, he will pay no income tax on the profit accruing to him from that saving. There are certain types of securities which will give him similar exemption from income tax and, of course, substantial exemption from estate duty. There are also various forms of insurance which will likewise give a person exemption from income tax. It appears that all these exemptions are given for the very worthy purpose of encouraging people to save but the one form of saving which we deliberately discourage under the income tax code is the investing of saving in a private dwelling.

On that account, Deputy Byrne and I have felt it was time to have a discussion in this House on this issue. Being ourselves of a mind that Schedule A income tax on private dwellings should be abolished, we were fortified in that belief by the report of the Income Tax Commission and we felt we might avoid some argumentation here if we used the words of the Commission's report and recommendation. That is what we have done.

We accept that a valuation of £30 as set out in the amendment is itself an arbitrary limit and we are, as it were, punishing a person who decides to put more of his money into a dwelling than some other form of investment but we feel it will be readily admitted that £30 valuation under our valuation code represents a fair valuation of a normal dwelling and I think the overwhelming majority of private houses of our people would be of £30 valuation or under. There are some which are above it. I have in mind, in particular, for instance, the fact that there are houses in Rathmines and Rathgar which at one time might have housed the well-to-do of the city of Dublin but which are, at this day and age, owned by elderly people who may, or may not, let portion of them. It might seem unfair that they should be compelled to pay Schedule A tax while a person living in some modern suburban house which is easier to run and which has a valuation of less than £30 may be exempt. However, as the Minister will no doubt say in reply and as we all appreciate, once we have a tax code of any kind, there will invariably be some inequalities. That is something we cannot get over unless we abolish Schedule A tax.

A great deal can be said in favour of abolishing Schedule A tax in toto because the situation that arises in relation to business premises is somewhat Gilbertian. If a business is subjected to Schedule A tax, then allowance is made in respect of that tax payment under Schedule D. Therefore, we have the farcical situation of one arm of the State spending a lot of money, time and effort levying tax which another arm of the State has to spend as much money, time and effort giving back.

However, we are primarily concerned with the social desirability of encouraging people to buy their homes. There is a very positive reason. We believe the State will be the more stable, the more mature, if it is a property-owning democracy in which people are living in houses which they have bought or are buying under mortgage. The community is then living in its own savings box and the people really appreciate the value of their savings. It is perhaps the most sensible form of saving. If a person invests money in other ways, there is a danger that the drop in the value of money may reduce the capital value of savings, but if there is any inflation, the benefit of inflation usually accrues to house property as well.

The support to be found for our amendment is so overwhelming that the Minister should seriously consider what we propose. I have no doubt that sooner or later the Minister or his successor will do it, not because the amendment has any particular merit but because it was announced in England that it would come into effect next year. The situation is apparently that many of our Ministers for Finance have been afraid to introduce any improvements in our income tax code until the "Old Lady" who introduced the iniquitous scheme originally carries out such improvements; then something which was regarded as unorthodox, revolutionary and not quite respectable becomes very respectable and is accepted overnight.

The Income Tax Commission received from a number of people recommendations which support our amendment. The Federation of Irish Industries recommended that the present system of regarding the Schedule A valuation as an addition to income should be discontinued, at least for valuations of up to £40. They went somewhat above the figure recommended by the Commission and that suggested by Deputy Byrne and myself but it will be observed that the Federation of Irish Industries representing people in Irish industry recommended to this Commission that the system of collecting income tax under Schedule A should be discontinued.

The Association of Chambers of Commerce in Ireland and the Federated Union of Employers wrote:

The majority of assessments which arise under Schedule A are for small amounts, mostly in respect of owner-occupied houses. It is considered that on social grounds Schedule A should not be assessed on this type of holding. Every encouragement should be given to extend the range of property owners in the country and the most suitable means of achieving this is to facilitate in every way possible the owner-occupied system. It seems probable that the discontinuance of Schedule A tax for this type of property would not involve any ultimate loss to the Exchequer as the savings achieved in assessment and collection expenses would almost certainly exceed the present yield of tax from this class of holding.

I might pass the comment that the Revenue Commissioners did not completely agree with that submission. What they did say was that the cost of implementing the amendment which is before the House would be about £200,000 but that against that allowance could be made in respect of the saving which would arise by reason of no longer having to administer what I call this Gilbertian arrangement. Unfortunately, the Revenue Commissioners do not know much about their own labour costs and they are unable to say how much they are costing the State. I have a feeling the saving would be quite substantial and any loss in revenue certainly would not exceed £50,000 a year. I might err on the side of generosity in favour of my own argument, but even if you double the figure, you would still find a relatively small loss would accrue to the State. The social benefit which would flow to the nation as a whole justifies it.

Let us go further. Another submission to the Income Tax Commission came from the Workers Union of Ireland. They submitted a copy of the resolution passed at the 1957 annual delegate conference which reads:

That no income tax be levied on a person in respect of the ownership of a house occupied by the owner and which does not exceed £3,000 in value, and where no other house-property is owned by the same person.

That purchase value of £3,000 suggested by the union would cover to a large extent houses of £30 rateable valuation and less. The Institute of Chartered Accountants in Ireland who are persons familiar with the income tax code and the manner in which it affects people, said that the Schedule A income tax is complicated and inequitable. That comes from people who are skilled in income tax affairs. They say:

The loss of tax from owner-occupiers of property would, to a large extent, be made good by the receipt of tax on the excess of net rents over Schedule A valuations of furnished and unfurnished lettings.

I do not propose to go through all the recommendations but I think it would be pertinent to list some of the other persons who recommend that our suggestion be adopted. The Civil Service Alliance recommended it and others who recommended it are the Irish Conference of Professional and Service Associations, Mr. T. Donovan, a retired Special Commissioner, Mr. C. J.F. McCarthy, a certified accountant from Cork, and several other accountants came before or wrote to this Commission on Income Tax recommending the abolition of Schedule A income tax in relation to owner-occupied property.

It is difficult to understand how this ever came to be levied. The notion apparently existed that because a person held house property, there was a national income deriving from that property. It was argued by the Revenue Commissioners that because a person had house property, that person was saved the expense of renting a dwelling from somebody else and that on that account he was more fortunate than his fellow citizens. It is time the State considered what the result is of discouraging people from owning their own dwellings. This policy, to a large extent, compels the central and local authorities to subsidise housing for certain sections of our people. Now, we all accept readily that we must provide dwellings for those of our people whose incomes are limited and who cannot, therefore, afford to provide houses for themselves. We will always gladly provide subsidies for such people.

There are, however, many people living in rented houses, subsidised by public authorities, who could well afford to purchase their houses. On the one hand, we exhort people not to be parasites on the community, if they can afford to provide their own houses and, on the other hand, we say to them: "If you do so, you will for the first time be subjected to a new form of taxation, a penal form of taxation because you invest your savings in a private dwelling for yourself and your family. If you invest that money in investments, securities, savings certificates, and so on, to yield you a profit year in and year out, and provide you with cash into your pocket, we will give you exemption." That is the situation at the moment. All the State garners is £100,000. I believe that if Schedule A taxation were abolished, it would save the State far more in the long run; it would certainly save the State more than the £100,000 annually because far more people would provide their own homes.

There is another amendment dealing with stamp duty with which I do not propose to deal now. It, too, is put down for the purpose of encouraging the citizens to purchase their homes. These two amendments are directed to one object, namely, to encourage people to live in their own savings boxes. We believe that, if the people did that, the State as a whole would benefit.

It is likely that in a few moments the Minister will tell us that the yield from Schedule A taxation is in the region of £1,000,000 because the report of the Revenue Commissioners shows the gross assessments resulting in a yield of something like £1,000,000. It is, however, a fact that the only effective payers of Schedule A tax are residential occupiers of their own private dwellings. In so far as the tax is levied on business properties, and this is where the bulk of the yield comes from, an allowance is given under Schedule D, the Schedule under which trading profits are taxed; and the yield under that Schedule is therefore correspondingly reduced. What is gained on the swings is lost on the roundabouts. If Schedule A tax is abolished, the loss to the State, having allowed for reduced administrative costs, will be very little indeed.

This is an illogical tax which has survived from the time when the principal form of real property was land. In William Pitt's time, when income tax was first introduced, the vast bulk of the revenue resulted from this property tax, or Schedule A tax, on land. That was before the development of industry on the scale it has reached nowadays. Before the repeal of the corn laws, the principal industry was, in fact, agriculture. This idea of taxing a notional income, which does not exist in real terms, is most illogical. It is based on an obsolete economic doctrine. Economists of the last century who laid down the basic principles upon which this tax is based have been largely discredited. There are other forms of goods and chattels which could, in theory, be subjected to this notional tax on ownership. The fact that they are not so subjected is further proof of the illogical nature of this tax. The person who owns an expensive yacht—mark you, Dublin Bay is one of the principal yachting centres in Western Europe—could, in theory, be subjected to taxation on the ownership element according to these antediluvian economists. It would be just as logical to tax him on that ownership as it is to tax a struggling worker making sacrifices to purchase his own house.

There is not a great deal one can add to what Deputy Ryan has said. He has covered the case very comprehensively, but I urge on the Minister that this tax cannot be divorced from local rates, which are, it is generally agreed, a form of taxation, too. The householder pays rates on his house, a form of taxation. Then the Revenue Commissioners come along and tell him that he has a notional cash income from the ownership of his own house and they subject that notional income to taxation.

It is my opinion that this Schedule A tax is a very real benefit to the landlord who, notwithstanding the fact that he rents dwellings and may collect considerable sums in rents, will still be subjected to taxation only on the notional element related to the poor law valuation of his property. You have then the paradoxical situation in which the landlords reap a benefit from this Schedule A property tax while the residential householder is penalised. There are, of course, many theoretical and doctrinaire arguments in favour of the taxes and these have been referred to at great length in the White Paper circulated a year ago by the Minister as justification for rejecting the recommendation of the commission of inquiry. One argument at paragraph 24 of the White Paper is highly doctrinaire and, in my opinion, utterly illogical.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted and 20 Members being present,

It was argued at Paragraph 24 of the White Paper that if the Commission's recommendation were accepted and Schedule A tax on the owner-occupier abolished, it would be necessary to give a corresponding allowance to the tenant-occupier in respect of the rent he pays. I do not see the sense of that argument at all. I believe that the person who owns his house, who is perhaps buying it out on mortgage, is in a very different position from the person who is renting a house. The owner-occupier is a person who, for social reasons, deserves to be encouraged.

In so far as the Minister may have in mind the cost arising out of that point made in Paragraph 24 of the White Paper, he should get rid of the idea. Many of the arguments raised in the White Paper—I do not want to go into them in detail—are highly doctrinaire and theoretical. As Deputy Ryan pointed out, other forms of savings are encouraged under the income tax code. Surely the most desirable form of saving of all is the provision of one's own home.

The most compelling argument in favour of the abolition of Schedule A tax is that it is a grossly uneconomic tax which is unwieldy and costly to administer. I remarked half an hour ago that when I asked the Minister a year ago what was the cost of administering the Schedule A tax, he was unable to provide the information. It is a preposterous situation if the Minister has considered the recommendations of the Income Tax Commission and rejected those recommendations without having regard to the real cost of administering the tax. The real cost as pointed out in some of the submissions to the Commission, is bound to be high by reason of the unwieldy nature of the tax.

However, the Minister did tell me a year ago that there were upwards of 40 clerks employed in the Schedule A section of Dublin General District. It is a fact that some of these clerks are engaged in the exercise, the Gilbertian exercise, of notifying Schedule D of assessments when raised —the amount collected—and other details so that the Schedule D section may set about the process of cancelling out the assessments. You are then in the absurd position of losing on the swings what you gained on the roundabouts. When I questioned the Minister on this matter of administrative costs, he pointed out that the only figure available to him was the cost of administering the income tax code as a whole and that it was only 3.8 per cent. of the revenue collected.

If the Minister is labouring under the delusion that it is costing him only 3.8 per cent. of the amount effectively collected under Schedule A to administer it, then it is time he rid himself of that impression. The cost of collecting the tax, having regard to its effective yield, is much more likely to be 50 per cent., or more, than it is to be three per cent.

Again, as I pointed out previously, in Britain this year, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, under pressure from his own back-benchers, has indicated that next year he will start the process of abolishing Schedule A tax. We are therefore in the position that a Conservative British Chancellor can adopt a more progressive approach to this question of tax reform than our Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance—a factor which merely confirms the growing impression of many people that Fianna Fáil are, in reality, a high Tory Conservative Party.

The Government's views on this matter were set out in paragraphs 15 to 30 of the White Paper on direct taxation which was laid before the House last year. In Paragraph 30, it was said that in present circumstances the Government were not convinced that owner-occupiers should be relieved of income tax where there is a liability under existing law. Deputies Ryan and Byrne think that because they recommend the abolition of tax, they are progressive. You can be progressive by abolishing all tax, if you want to, but where will you progress to? Then, if I say we are going to retain it, I am a conservative.

Could we not approach this matter in a less childish manner than to talk about Conservatives and Progressives? If this tax is abolished, it has to be assumed that money will be found in another way. I do not know what the Deputy will suggest as a progressive way of getting money, if this is conservative. Perhaps he has something in mind. We should like to hear what his progressive ideas are.

The cost of collection in this case is not very high. The Deputy surely knows that when filling up your income tax form, you state that the valuation of your house is so much, say, £45, that the ground rent is, say, £15, and that you pay income tax on £30, if you are liable to income tax. Whatever the Revenue Commissioners or their officers may do in checking on that, I do not see how the expense could be very high because it is only part of the income tax collection, in any case.

It is calculated that at present the yield from this tax in respect of valuations, under £30, is about £300,000. That is higher than the amount given last year by reason of the fact that this year more people are liable to income tax. Therefore, there are certain houses, I suppose, coming into the income tax orbit that were not there a year ago. Deputy Ryan, I think, said the tax was complicated and inequitable. I do not know if it is inequitable; I shall have more to say about that. However, I cannot see how this tax is complicated.

If we decide to abolish the tax on houses up to £30 and to remit the first £30 on houses above £30, that would appear to me to be getting a little bit complicated. At least you would have the additional task of taking £30 from the total in your income tax form and, to that extent, it would be more complicated.

The argument was used, in relation to this White Paper, that if there are two people with, say, £2,500 each, and one buys a house while the other puts his money into Government loan, the man who puts his money into Government loan at present will get a dividend of about £150 on which he will pay about £47 in income tax. The other person, having bought his house, with, say, a valuation of £30 and £10 ground rent, pays on £20, which is about £6, and which is a very big difference indeed. I think it is hard to justify making the comparison between the two individuals. A man who has his £2,500 invested in Government securities is paying rent for his house which, of course, is higher, naturally, than what the owner-occupier is paying by way of ground rent and income tax, if you like, and rates on his house.

Take then the other case of a man who has no money and who borrows money to buy a house. He is free of income tax on the amount of interest he pays on his loan. The house he gets is relieved from rates for some years and there are also grants payable, if it is a new house. Deputy Ryan pointed out that if this provision were done away with, he could afford to pay for his house, but if it is not done away with, he will have all these reliefs and it is only fair that he should pay something. If the loan is secured by an insurance policy, he is saved the amount of the tax on the premium on that policy as well.

I do not see that there is a great case to be made for the abolition of this tax. Deputy Ryan said that we are likely to do it because Britain has done it but the conditions are different in Britain. Valuations are much higher there and there is a comprehensive revaluation taking place in Britain and Wales in which valuations are being increased twofold and three-fold. If this tax were left in Britain, it would be a serious burden if it were increased twice or three times, as it would be. It is also a more costly tax to collect in Britain where they have allowances for repairs and for alterations in the houses which are not allowed here because the rateable valuation is supposed to take account of all these things.

The valuation is based on the net letting value, the net letting value being the letting value, less outgoings such as repairs. We have a different system of valuation and our valuations are much lower than they are in Britain. There is not the same justification for the remission of income tax on an owner-occupied house here as there is in Britain and I am therefore against the amendment.

The Minister is really begging the question. He has made no attempt to make any justification for this tax and he has made no attempt to explain the cash value of this theoretical income. He has made no attempt to explain the anomaly between the owner of his own house and the owner of some other goods or chattels. It is unjustifiable and theoretical income based on outmoded economic concepts evolved by economists who have been discredited in their own country. Sooner or later, we are going to get around to abolishing this tax, probably some years after Britain has done so. Some years ago, we had a repairs allowance under Schedule A which was abolished by Mr. Seán T. O'Kelly when he was Minister for Finance in a year in which he probably raised another £10,000 or £15,000 as a result of that abolition.

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 2 agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

This is the section by virtue of which the Minister is taking the increased tax on beer. It is very significant that in the Minister's Budget speech, the reason he gave for increasing the tax was that it had remained at the same rate since 1952; in other words, the tax remained at the same rate since Deputy MacEntee, as Minister for Finance, imposed the very steeply increased rates in 1952. The effect of this tax in the first quarter of this year, in so far as it is reflected in the figures for excise, is that even though the Minister has increased the tax on beer and spirits, we have got less money from excise taxation than in the first three months of last year.

I know that excise taxation includes other things than beer and spirits but they are the main tax headings in that section. It is significant that in spite of the increased rates, the Minister has, in fact, got less money. We indicated in the Budget debate that we were opposed to this increase and for that reason we oppose the section now.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 62; Níl, 47.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hillery, Patrick.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed : "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

Section 4 is the similar section that deals with the imposition of duty on whiskey, and, again, the only reason the Minister could find in his Budget speech for the introduction of this increase in duty was that the tax had remained at that figure since Deputy MacEntee, as Minister for Finance, imposed his substantial increases in 1952. Just as the imposition in the last section was an imposition which had its effect peculiarly on the less well-off sections of our community, to many of whom a pint of stout is, in fact, almost food, particularly for those who are working hard and who have to take a meal in the middle of work away from home, so also this section has another effect. It will prevent the distillers from having sufficient funds in their resources adequately to bolster up their export sales abroad.

We all know that it is impossible for a business which has to carry as high overheads as distilling successfully to carry out any export trade, unless that export trade is based on a high home production and, therefore, a high home consumption. The distillers and the distilling industry are people who are particularly hit, having regard to the amount of their working capital that is affected by any increase in the amount of duty. We know they have not to pay such duty until the spirits, be it whiskey, gin or even vodka, which is produced here now, is taken from bond. From the moment it is taken from bond and when the duty goes up, the amount that has to be laid out before it comes back is substantially increased.

Accordingly, the distillers will find that one of the effects of this tax will be to reduce their working capital and by that reduction of their working capital, to hamper them in the drive for exports and for increased sales abroad, sales which not only every member of this House desires from a balance of payments and a balance of trade point of view but also because of their immense effect on the farmers through the production of barley throughout the country. Ultimately, this tax will be a tax not merely on spending but on industry and on the efficacy of that industry to promote an export drive.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 49.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Leneghan, Joseph R.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary)
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:— Tá, Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl, Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 5.

I move amendment No 2:

To delete subsections (1), (2) and (3) and substitute the following subsections:

"(1) The duty of customs on tobacco imposed by Section 20 of the Finance Act, 1932, shall, during the period beginning on the 11th day of April, 1962, and ending on the 9th day of August, 1962, be charged, levied and paid at the several rates specified in Part I of the Second Schedule to this Act in lieu of any other rates.

(2) The duty of excise on tobacco imposed by Section 19 of the Finance Act, 1934, shall, during the period beginning on the 11th day of April, 1962, and ending on the 9th day of August, 1962, be charged, levied and paid at the several rates specified in Part II of the Second Schedule to this Act in lieu of any other rates.

(3) The rebate on hard pressed tobacco mentioned in subsection (2) of section 17 of the Finance Act, 1940, shall, in respect of any such tobacco sold and sent out for use within the State by any licensed manufacturer during the period beginning on the 11th day of April, 1962, and ending on the 9th day of August, 1962, be at the rate of sixteen shillings and fivepence per pound."

Amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 14 with the part of amendment No. 4 dealing with tobacco, may be discussed at this stage.

Amendment No. 2 has the effect of confining the duty as it stands in the Finance Bill to 9th August, 1962. It also confines hard pressed tobacco to the same period—9th August, 1962. Amendment No. 3 then fixes the duty from 9th August, 1962, onwards as it stands in the Finance Bill, plus the equivalent of one penny on the packet of 20 cigarettes as imposed by the Imposition of Duties Order of June last, so that the increased duty, as far as the Finance Bill is concerned, comes into effect on 9th August. The extra penny is repeated under the Imposition of Duties Act from the time of its imposition in June until 9th August so that, in fact, the extra duty is collected during all that period. The Schedules are the new Schedules setting out the rates of duty.

As I understand it, amendment No. 2 is the amendment which implements the Budget proper up to 9th August, 1962, and amendment No. 3 is the amendment which adds on to it the supplementary penny Budget. The two of them are complementary in so far as both of them deal with Section 5, with tobacco as such. We made it clear on the Financial Resolution relating to tobacco that, in our view, it was highly improper that the Minister should have used the Imposition of Duties Act for the purpose of imposing a revenue duty, such as he did in this case. We also made it clear that it was in relation to the section rather than the Financial Resolution, we would express our disapproval in the positive way of walking through the Division Lobbies.

I noted on the Financial Resolution that the Minister made no effort whatever to defend the improper method he had adopted of imposing this type of taxation. It is not without precedent that a Minister for Finance who wanted an additional Budget should introduce additional Financial Resolutions. The Minister's predecessor, Deputy Aiken, did that in the preparations in this House for the Finance (No. 2) Act, 1947. Much though one objected to the additional impositions made at that time—impositions remitted in large part almost immediately afterwards by the inter-Party Government as soon as they got into office—one could not criticise the procedure adopted. That is not the case now. This is the crystallisation in Finance Bill form of the procedure adopted by the Minister for Finance on 13th June last when he utilised this Act, which was put through this House for the purpose of protecting Irish industry, as the means of obtaining Government revenue and as the means, self-confessed, of obtaining Government revenue because it was easy.

We all have heard about how easy it is to start on the slippery slope. I want to make it perfectly clear by our recording our views in relation to this that we do not approve of the scheme adopted by the Minister, that we do not think it is right that taxation should be levied in the initial instance by any method except by Resolution of this House and that we do not think it is proper that the Government should know so little about their own business as to change their mind within a period of six or seven weeks after the original Budget was introduced. We had several attempts at Budgets this year. Within a period of six or seven weeks after the main Budget, we had the Minister for Finance coming in here, admitting that all his claims in relation to what was going to happen to the economy in the current year were wrong and that he had to bring in a supplementary Budget. That is exactly what it was. It was not a supplementary Budget which was going to produce any benefit to anybody but which was to restore something removed in the period of a few weeks previously and on which our Leader, Deputy Dillon, and I expressed strongest objection at the time.

But, leaving out entirely the reason for or purpose of raising the taxation, to do so in this manner was all wrong. To do so by deliberately setting town against country in the manner in which the Minister segregated the proceeds of a particular tax for the purpose of meeting a particular demand has started a new and entirely unsatisfactory discussion throughout the country. It has created bitterness of feeling between town and country that all previous Ministers for Finance have always properly avoided. It would be just the same if, say, in relation to the taxes we have just been talking about on beer and spirits the retailer in a shop said categorically "I am adding a penny to the price of that glass of whiskey so that I can pay my man Michael an additional wage there and then on the spot." That is not the way in which Ministers for Finance should operate and not the way in which taxation should be imposed by Government duty.

I detest the method whereby this tax is put on. It strikes at the fundamental process of our system of Government by seeking to withdraw from Dáil Éireann the exclusive prerogative of imposing taxation for revenue purposes. It was a careless, shiftless thing for any Minister for Finance to do and it has established a most undesirable precedent which, if adopted hereafter, materially abridges the authority of Oireachtas Éireann. I detest the method. I detest the slipshod procedure of a Government which, well knowing that Bord Bainne had levied a penny a gallon on milk, presented its Budget to Dáil Éireann, made no provision for any compensatory payment and then subsequently shifted its ground and introduced by this disedifying method a new tax to raise additional revenue to offset the penny per gallon that had been levied on milk by Bord Bainne.

It is an interesting fact that the operation of collecting the levy and restoring the penny will cost £30,000. Simply because the Government wobbled between the imposition of the levy on milk and its restoration from the Treasury, this country will have the pleasure of paying £30,000 towards meeting expenses in order to cover up the vacillating tracks of a Government that do not know their own mind and have not got the guts to stick to their own policy for a fortnight on end.

I detest this tax because although in this year we have appropriated £5,000,000 for the salaries of civil servants, although we have appropriated a substantial sum to increase the salaries of the judges, although we have appropriated large sums to confer increases over a very wide range of public employees, in no single case has it been stated in Dáil Éireann that any specific tax was appropriated for the purpose of paying this additional remuneration save when it came to restoring the penny per gallon to milk which this Government had, through Bord Bainne, taken off. When that falls to be corrected, we are informed that tobacco must be taxed in order to give farmers a penny a gallon on milk. That is exacerbated by the fact that the penny a gallon referred to was the penny a gallon this Government by their legislation took off.

I remember when they brought into this House the Bill to establish Bord Bainne, I warned Dáil Éireann that the sole function of Bord Bainne was to act as a cover up for the Government when they wanted to levy milk, so that the Minister could come in here and like Pontius Pilate, wash his hands and say: "I had nothing to do with it; it was done by Bord Bainne"—and that is exactly what happened. Then when the pressure became strong enough the Minister says: "Very well; we must tax tobacco to give back the 1d." The final and most egregious element in the insult is that the people who will pay the greater part of the tax are the farmers themselves.

The 1d. they will get out of this tax —and they will pay more than half of it themselves—represents no addition whatever to the income they enjoyed in 1957. In 1957, every other element of the community got a substantial increase in their incomes, save only the farmers. When will Dáil Éireann wake up to the fact that the bulk of the farmers are self-employed? They are as much labouring men as any trade unionist in Ireland; they are as much labouring men as any bus conductor, railway employee or building labourer; but they work for themselves. They have no employer other than themselves, but their income, far from growing since 1957, has tended downwards.

They had a considerable volume of employment in rural Ireland in 1957 out of the Local Authorities (Works) Act. That is now gone. They had an income from turkeys and fowl. That is gone. They had some income from eggs. That is gone. They are now producing milk and they are told tobacco must be taxed in order to restore it to the level of the price which obtained five years ago.

In the meantime, they are asked to pay more tax on drink, more tax on tobacco, more for bus fares, more for electricity where they have got it, more for almost any service they enjoy. What is the result? They are leaving the land. And what is the remedy? The Government set up commissions to make reports to tell them what is happening and why the people are flying from the farms in the west and north-west, the south and south-west. They do not know.

Who is driving them off the land? Who is making it no longer possible for people to live on holdings of 20 or 30 acres? The Fianna Fáil Government. They are doing it because they have piled up consistently on the people who occupy holdings of that kind growing volumes of expenses, and burdens of taxes which they have admitted required the sixth, seventh and eighth rounds of wage increases to compensate the judges—with £6,000 a year—the Civil Service, the Garda and the employees of local authorities. All those must have two or three rounds of increases but the small farmer who will have to pay at least half of this tax is to be grateful—he is expected by the Fianna Fáil Party to be grateful—for being given back the 1d. they took from him on his gallon of milk, with the proviso that he must pay one half of the restoration out of his own pocket.

You are all mad. The Fianna Fáil Party are tearing to pieces the social fabric of the best part of the country. They know it, and their remedy is to set up commissions to tell them what to do. There is one remedy for the disintegration of the property-owning community on the land of Ireland, and that is for the Fianna Fáil Party to vanish. If they do not, we may well lose the whole pattern of the small farmers of Ireland and if we do, we will wake up one morning to discover that the country has become like the Cheshire cat—a smile without a body behind it. Posterity will have a verdict to pass on that achievement which will be even more shocking than the verdict they will pass on the history of Fianna Fáil to date.

Deputy Dillon started his speech by implying that he is a prophet; he ended by being a demagogue. The small farmers of Ireland will see to it that Fianna Fáil do not vanish and the Deputy may make his mind easy on that point. There are, undoubtedly, problems to be solved for the farmers, but they are not solved by trying to cloud the issue, at which Deputy Dillon has been an expert for the past 20 years or more.

Why can we not go back and take this matter step by step and see what has been done? Does not every Deputy know that the people in the milk industry, the dairy industry, were clamouring for a marketing board? I have heard it here for years—a marketing board—and the Fine Gael Party also favoured it. A committee was appointed, composed largely of people from the creamery industry, to find out what type of board we should have. They gave a report, and a Bill was brought in to implement it. That Bill was passed, by the way, with the full support of every member of the Dáil. Fine Gael tell us now that they warned us about certain things and that they did not like certain points, but they did not vote against anything. It is no great trouble to get Fine Gael to vote against anything. They challenge divisions often enough and they are not a bit shy about it, but they did not do that when that Bill was going through.

The Bill went through and the board was set up, again composed largely of people from the creamery industry. It was a statutory obligation on that board to impose a levy to pay part of the export bounty, which they did. That was their part of the business. When that was done, we had to consider whether the dairy farmer should be asked to bear a cut in his income from milk and we decided we should compensate him and at least bring his income up to the point at which it was previously.

Deputy Sweetman said we did not make proper provision in our Budget. It was because I thought we had made the exact provision necessary, and no more, that I expressed my opinion to the Government that we would have to raise taxation to recoup ourselves and we decided that a tax on tobacco was the least objectionable tax that could be imposed to meet the situation, and it was done in that way. I do not see how we could avoid the situation in which some people would say: "We are paying this tax to compensate the dairy farmers." If people are saying that—and I do not know if it is general for people to make that remark—it cannot be helped. As regards the method by which it was done, I suppose there is room there for a difference of opinion.

I have explained before that at the time it was urgent to do something, if we were to get even the greater part of what will be paid out during the year. It was obvious that it was being done only a few weeks—about three weeks—before the Dáil would have an opportunity to discuss it, as it is discussing it now. I do not know if we can be accused of any great sin in raising money in that way but, as I say, there is room for a difference of opinion on that point.

If any further Supplementary Estimates are introduced, will special taxes be imposed to meet them?

There is provision in the Budget for a certain amount of Supplementary Estimates but not for a big item such as this.

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 52.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.

I move amendment No. 3:

To add to the section the following subsections:

"(6) The duty of customs on tobacco imposed by section 20 of the Finance Act, 1932, shall, as on and from the 10th day of August, 1962, be charged, levied and paid at the several rates specified in Part III of the Second Schedule to this Act in lieu of any other rates.

(7) The duty of excise on tobacco imposed by section 19 of the Finance Act, 1934, shall, as on and from the 10th day of August, 1962, be charged, levied and paid at the several rates specified in Part IV of the Second Schedule to this Act in lieu of any other rates.

(8) The rebate on hard pressed tobacco mentioned in subsection (2) of section 17 of the Finance Act, 1940, shall in respect of any such tobacco sold and sent out for use within the State by any licensed manufacturer on or after the 10th day of August, 1962, be at the rate of seventeen shillings and elevenpence per pound."

Question put.
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 51.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Blowick, Joseph.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Costello, John A.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick J.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies O'Sullivan and Crotty.
Question declared carried.
Question put: "That Section 5, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Tá, 61; Níl, 50.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Lorcan.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Blaney, Neil T.
  • Boland, Kevin.
  • Booth, Lionel.
  • Brady, Philip A.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, Joseph.
  • Brennan, Paudge.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Burke, Patrick J.
  • Calleary, Phelim A.
  • Carty, Michael.
  • Childers, Erskine.
  • Clohessy, Patrick.
  • Colley, George.
  • Collins, James J.
  • Cotter, Edward.
  • Crinion, Brendan.
  • Crowley, Honor M.
  • Cummins, Patrick J.
  • Davern, Mick.
  • de Valera, Vivion.
  • Dolan, Séamus.
  • Dooley, Patrick.
  • Egan, Kieran P.
  • Egan, Nicholas.
  • Fanning, John.
  • Faulkner, Padraig.
  • Gallagher, James.
  • Geoghegan, John.
  • Gibbons, James M.
  • Gilbride, Eugene.
  • Gogan, Richard P.
  • Haughey, Charles.
  • Hilliard, Michael.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Lalor, Patrick J.
  • Lemass, Noel T.
  • Lemass, Seán.
  • Lenihan, Brian.
  • Lynch, Celia.
  • Lynch, Jack.
  • MacCarthy, Seán.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Medlar, Martin.
  • Millar, Anthony G.
  • Moher, John W.
  • Mooney, Patrick.
  • Ó Briain, Donnchadh.
  • Ó Ceallaigh, Seán.
  • O'Connor, Timothy.
  • O'Malley, Donogh.
  • Ormonde, John.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Sherwin, Frank.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Timmons, Eugene.

Níl

  • Barrett, Stephen D.
  • Barron, Joseph.
  • Barry, Anthony.
  • Belton, Jack.
  • Browne, Michael.
  • Burke, James J.
  • Byrne, Patrick.
  • Carroll, Jim.
  • Clinton, Mark A.
  • Collins, Seán.
  • Connor, Patrick.
  • Coogan, Fintan.
  • Corish, Brendan.
  • Cosgrave, Liam.
  • Coughlan, Stephen.
  • Crotty, Patrick J.
  • Desmond, Dan.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry P.
  • Dockrell, Maurice E.
  • Donegan, Patrick S.
  • Dunne, Thomas.
  • Esmonde, Sir Anthony C.
  • Everett, James.
  • Farrelly, Denis.
  • Flanagan, Oliver J.
  • Gilhawley, Eugene.
  • Governey, Desmond.
  • Hogan, Patrick (South Tipperary).
  • Hogan O'Higgins, Brigid.
  • Jones, Denis F.
  • Kenny, Henry.
  • Kyne, Thomas A.
  • Lynch, Thaddeus.
  • MacEoin, Seán.
  • McLaughlin, Joseph.
  • Mullen, Michael.
  • Murphy, William.
  • Norton, William.
  • O'Higgins, Michael J.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.K.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, Denis J.
  • Pattison, Séamus.
  • Reynolds, Patrick J.
  • Rooney, Eamonn.
  • Ryan, Richie.
  • Sweetman, Gerard.
  • Treacy, Seán.
  • Tully, James.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies J. Brennan and Geoghegan; Níl: Deputies Crotty and O'Sullivan.
Question declared carried.
Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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