Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Jul 1962

Vol. 196 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 8—Office of Public Works (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

"That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration."—Deputies Donnellan and T. Lynch.

Mr. Tully

Before I reported progress, I was referring to the fact that the manual employees of the Board of Works have been treated very shabbily by their employers. I referred particularly to those who are generally described as labourers. They are the people who do the actual work with the spade and shovel at the bottom of a drain or river. I pointed out that not alone had they not been paid for the job but that the Board of Works had failed even to notify the trade union representing the men of what the state of the negotiations was and, with the exception of negotiations in respect of the men on the Broadmeadow river, had not carried out any direct negotiations, good, bad or indifferent.

I should like also to point out that the machinery workers and the people who are in charge of the men employed on the scheme, foremen, gangers, etc., while they received an increase in wages comparable with that being paid to those in outside employment, because of the fact that they did not have put into effect a reduction in working hours the same as those with whom their wages were being compared, they did not receive the correct increase in wages.

The Parliamentary Secretary, I am sure, is quite clear on what I am getting at. The drivers received an increase of 24/6d. a week which was the increase granted to railway employees of a similar grade, but while the outside employees, the railway employees and the local authority employees, had their hours cut to 45 and their working week cut, the other people employed by the Board of Works did not get any reduction in hours or in their working week. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will agree with me that that is a most unfair way of doing things and I hope he will take the necessary steps to rectify it.

In addition, there is the question of the ordinary fellows—labourers, as they are probably referred to—who received a 10/- a week increase. Those in local authority employment, who were doing as near to comparable work as it is possible to find, received, over a period of 12 months, from 1st April, 1961, to 1st April, 1962, increases generally of 22/6 a week in addition to a reduction of working hours.

Over the same period, the Office of Public Works paid an increase, in every case except Broadmeadow, of only 15/-. Since the Parliamentary Secretary took office he discovered there was something very wrong and, as an interim measure, he very belatedly gave them an increase of 10/-. I would ask him now to take steps to give them the other 10/- in order to bring them somewhere near the position they were in some months ago.

It is quite possible that the case may be made that the Office of Public Works are at present considering an incentive bonus scheme and that that is the reason why the correct increase was not given. Lest that argument might be put up, I want to shoot it down immediately. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that an incentive bonus scheme is not a substitute for a wage increase. If it were, it would cease to be an incentive bonus scheme. The only reason it is introduced is to effect an increase in output. If it is to be used as a device to hold down wages than it is not acceptable and it will not work.

The men concerned want their wage increase of at least 10/- per week; they want a reduction in working hours to 45; they want a five-day week—all of which they are entitled to. If the Office of Public Works want to have their incentive bonus scheme—as in the case of Forestry and the Land Commission a few years ago—on the basis that it would not affect future wage increases, they are entitled to do so. I am sure the Parliamentary Secretary will do all he can to help.

I come now to arterial drainage. I know it is a very big problem. Very good work is being done. On the previous Estimate, some Deputies referred to the effect drainage has in some areas where there are excellent fishing rivers. It has been known that the cleaning or widening or deepening of the channel in a certain way in some rivers has resulted in the complete wiping out for a period of years of any trout or salmon that was in them. From information I have received I am glad to learn that trout and salmon are coming back to these rivers so that eventually the position rights itself. That may be all right if it affects merely people fishing for sport but I am particularly interested in the situation which will occur within the next few years on the River Boyne where people fish for their livelihood.

I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would ensure that all possible steps are taken in this connection before the scheme is started so that the matter will be dealt with in the best possible way. In order to ensure that that will be done, there must be the fullest co-operation between the Office of Public Works, the Fisheries Branch and local fishery interests including the local Board of Conservators and fishing clubs. They should all be considered as otherwise much harm could be done and much bad feeling could be created which should if at all possible be avoided.

The arterial drainage schemes are doing an immense amount of good. The only trouble is that it takes so long to get them into operation. I suppose they have to be examined, planned and mapped before a job starts. The years pass by very slowly in this regard. Drainage of the Boyne, which is at present being planned, will be started inside the next few years, according to a reply which the Parliamentary Secretary gave me recently: I think he said three or four years.

There are farmers whose land has been flooded not alone by the Boyne but also by the Blackwater and the other tributaries. In some cases, land has now become so completely choked over that you would hardly recognise it at all. I can assure the House that many farmers are eagerly awaiting the work so that they can have the use of their land for 12 months of the year instead of only in dry weather. Recently, I asked a man how much land he had. He replied that in dry weather he has 40 acres but that in bad weather he has only two acres. If the Parliamentary Secretary can ensure that that man, and others like him, will have the use of all his land all the year round then I can assure him that his work will be very much appreciated.

Many other interests must be taken into account as well as fishing. I am quite certain that the Department are doing everything possible to ensure that they are all considered. I should be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would let me know the possibility of having something done with the rivers which are supposed to be minor arterial drainage schemes: the Boyne is a major one. I have in mind rivers such as the Delvin and the Nanny in Meath. They do not connect with the Boyne in any way. They run directly to the sea. Over the years, an extraordinary situation has built up there. Apparently, some years back, the Office of Public Works gave authority to local drainage committees who, in turn, passed on that responsibility to the Meath County Council, in this case, for the cleaning of certain portions of rivers. For some reason which I could never understand, they did not include the whole rivers. They included a mile here, half a mile there and a mile again further on. Then they would skip half a mile and do another mile. The result is that portions of the rivers are regularly maintained and portions are choked up with trees, banks of mud, and so on.

If, between now and the time these minor schemes are put into operation, the Parliamentary Secretary can suggest some action which will allow the local authority in the area—in this case, the Meath County Council—to clean and clear up those rivers—to take out the trees, and so on, it will be a very good thing. They did have authority to do it, I understand, under the Local Authorities (Works) Act, but they had not the finances nor had they the authority unless they get it direct from the Department.

Mr. O'Malley

They do not need permission.

Mr. Tully

The Parliamentary Secretary told me recently that they do.

Mr. O'Malley

They might need the finances but they certainly do not need the permission unless, in the opinion of our experts, it would interfere with the major scheme which is proposed under the Arterial Drainage Act, 1945.

Mr. Tully

By no stretch of the imagination could it be considered that it would interfere with other work. If the Parliamentary Secretary would give the answer to a question which I shall put down to him, maybe in the meantime he will check and find out what prevents the local authority from doing the work. The whole thing is ridiculous. They are doing portions of a river, missing portions and doing portions further on again, with the result that no major benefit is derived by the landholders along it because the portion that is not done is completely blocking up the flow. It simply results in preventing the water from quickly——

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy is speaking, I presume, of work under the 1925 Act, when drainage districts were established?

Mr. Tully

Yes. Can the Parliamentary Secretary tell me why complete rivers were not handed over to the drainage districts? Why should portions be handed over and portions not be handed over? Surely there must be an explanation. In my opinion, in many cases it is a complete waste of time and money to do the work in the way it has been done. Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would let me know later what can be done about this matter.

I got quite a substantial list of schools in my constituency that are to be repaired and of new schools to be built in the near future. I also got a list of a number of schools which are to be done within the coming year and I was surprised to find that while the school in Donacarney, near Drogheda, was not included in the list to be done this year, it had been almost at the top of the original list. Perhaps that was because it begins with the letter D or there may be another explanation.

Mr. O'Malley

There is another explanation.

Mr. Tully

Perhaps I could have the explanation. I understand that the manager and everybody connected with it have everything ready and the matter now rests with the Board of Works.

Mr. O'Malley

The present manager?

Mr. Tully

Yes. I am glad to see that a number of Garda barracks are being replaced but I am sorry that in so many cases so long a time must elapse before they are replaced. It seems ridiculous that they should be left for replacement until they are practically falling down. I asked the Minister for Justice a question about some of these barracks and he gave me a list of those which are to be done, including the Slane barracks. A new one is to be built there and I assumed it was to be built in the near future but it does not appear on the list of those to be done this year. I do not know if there is any other barracks in a worse condition than the Slane barracks. Externally the building appears to be an excellent stone building. I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary ever visited Slane but in the centre of the square there are four buildings of similar type, one of which is the Garda barracks. According to the Minister for Justice the barracks is to be demolished. That will ruin the appearance of the village. Surely even if it is——

Mr. O'Malley

There is the question of title in the acquisition of a site in Slane. We are cognisant of aesthetic values and we shall try to keep in harmony with the three buildings which will be left when the fourth is demolished.

Mr. Tully

Am I to assume that the new barracks is to be built on the site of the old one?

Mr. O'Malley

No, on another site.

Mr. Tully

In that case the old barracks will be left derelict for some time.

Mr. O'Malley

No, we propose to demolish the old one.

Mr. Tully

It will mean that three of the old buildings will remain and the fourth will be one of these terrible derelict sites we see all over the country. However, I would be more interested to know when the Board of Works will start that scheme. The Minister for Justice said it might be done next year. I am interested because living conditions there are pretty bad.

Mr. O'Malley

We will be starting work there within twelve months. I have not the right to say that it will be demolished as we are only renting it but the work will start within twelve months.

Mr. Tully

Another matter is that some years ago the cooking facilities in the Slane barracks went out of order coming up to Christmas. The Board of Works agreed that something would be done. An assurance was given to me that something would be done before Christmas, but that Christmas passed as others did and no cooking facilities were provided. I may be wrong but I understand that a difference of opinion arose between residents in the barracks and an official of the Board of Works. We are all human and we can fall out over small differences which may seem ridiculous but we should not have a situation arising that because a person does not see eye to eye with somebody else justice should be overlooked and the person with the greatest authority should refuse to carry out work which should have been carried out some years ago. I hope the Office of Public Works will speed up the work of renovating these barracks because if a barracks in a country village is in a tumbledown, dilapidated condition it does not lend dignity to the law in the area. I should also like to refer to the question of coast erosion. I know there is a Bill about to be introduced.

Mr. O'Malley

That Bill is almost ready and will be introduced this year.

Mr. Tully

Not this session?

Mr. O'Malley

No.

Mr. Tully

I should like to point out, with Deputy Lynch, that the people of Wexford seemed to be able to get along without any Bill and the necessary work was carried out there. On the Meath coast there are about seven miles of what we believe to be very beautiful coast-line. It has been seriously affected in recent years by erosion and we think that the Bill should be introduced as quickly as possible. When erosion reaches a certain stage, having worn through the tough outer fringe, it causes a lot of damage in a surprisingly short time when it reaches the sand-dunes. The quicker something can be done about it the better. In the meantime perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would have his engineers inspect the area which I have mentioned, which is mainly a seaside resort where people go to enjoy themselves in summer and which is occupied during the year by 600 or 700 people, so that a true picture can be presented before the work is attempted.

I should also like to refer to the question of national monuments. The Office of Public Works are doing an excellent job in regard to the preservation of national monuments. In Meath there are many national monuments. In the Trim area there are perhaps more monuments and buildings of value than there are in any other county. An effort is being made to keep them in repair and that is appreciated. There is one monument about which there is a dispute in which the Parliamentary Secretary may find himself involved. It is the stone Cross in Kells, which is well known through the Book of Kells in Trinity College. There are a number of stone crosses there but only one in the main street. The cross in question has been there for over 100 years and appears to be on its original site because authorities refer to it as being beside the castle, which it is, and that a view of the church can be obtained from it, which is also true. It has been suggested that it should be removed but I believe that would completely do away with the value attached to the Cross. It would be hidden away in some place where it would not be seen by more than half a dozen tourists each year. At present it is on the junction of four streets. According to some people it is a danger to traffic but I use the streets there as much as anyone else and I see no danger to traffic from it. I appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to take the view that the Cross should remain where it is if the matter comes before him.

I should also like to refer to the development of Drogheda Harbour. Over the years we have heard a great deal about grants which the Department were to make for improving the harbour, and all the rest of it. Let me say immediately that, while Drogheda is not in my constituency, it is the nearest town to where I live. It is a very progressive town. The port of Drogheda is at the present time taking, perhaps twice as much shipping as any other port of its kind in the country. The only difference I have with the Drogheda Harbour Board is in regard to the way in which any scheme they propose should be carried out. I mentioned earlier a place in Meath where the people live on salmon fishing and picking mussels during winter. The original scheme which the Drogheda Harbour Commissioners proposed was calculated to wipe out completely the mussel beds. That was reconsidered and a proposal was put down that the mussels would be put back in a certain place. If they were put back in a fast flowing river, it would be a waste of money putting them there.

I also understand from a reply to a Question which I got last week that there is some difficulty about the soundings taken at the mouth of the Boyne. I assume from that that it may be considered necessary completely to change the scheme. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to try to clear the air and let us know where we stand in relation to the matter. Is it intended to go ahead with the original scheme or any scheme? What exactly is happening with regard to the Drogheda Harbour Commissioners' scheme for the mouth of the Boyne? It will possibly be tied up with the arterial drainage of the Boyne. Perhaps, the Parliamentary Secretary might let us know whether or not it is intended to wait until the arterial drainage scheme is being put down or whether it is intended to deal with the matter as a separate entity?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

One of the most important matters which I intend to deal with on this Estimate is the manner in which the Parliamentary Secretary himself is administering the affairs of the Department for which he is responsible. I have been a member of this House for close on 20 years and in all that 20 years I have always found the greatest attentiveness, the greatest degree of courtesy, civility and helpfulness from the officers of the Office of Public Works.

In that 20 years there has been in charge of that Department a number of men who held the high office of Parliamentary Secretary. The late Deputy Beegan held it with distinction. He was noted for his courtesy and fairness. It was held by Deputy Donnellan, whose attentiveness and care certainly could not be equalled. It was held for a considerable time by Deputy J. Brennan, now Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach. Deputy Brennan can only be described as a gentleman who was anxious to help in every possible way. I can remember being in correspondence with that Department when the present Minister for Agriculture was Parliamentary Secretary. The Minister for Agriculture may not be noted for his courtesy but he never interfered with the manner in which the officers of his Department carried out their duties. The only single man who occupied that office who interfered with the working of the civil servants in his Department is the present Parliamentary Secretary.

I want to take this opportunity of registering my strongest possible protest against the hindrance of the civil servants in carrying out their duties by the Parliamentary Secretary. I have already complained, without satisfaction, to the Taoiseach. Naturally enough, one would expect the Taoiseach to take action when irregularities were drawn to his notice. I respectfully say that irregularities in the Office of Public Works have taken place and are taking place at this very moment. I do not know what other Deputies may be prepared to say on the matter. I can speak only for myself. Over a long number of years in regard to the many requests which I have been asked to deal with from my constituency and from outside my constituency I have always approached the Chairman of the Office of Public Works and the retired Chairman, Mr. Morris.

I have always dealt with the heads of that Department and I have always found them to be reasonable and anxious to help but the present Parliamentary Secretary brings in a new regulation which to my knowledge does not exist in any other State Department. If any of us writes to the Secretary of any of the other State Departments, immediately we have the courtesy of a reply and an acknowledgment from the Secretary. The only single Department to depart from the practice of courtesy to Deputies and Senators is the Office of Public Works because of a new regulation brought about by the Parliamentary Secretary preventing officers of his Department, whether it be the Chairman of the Office of Public Works or any other head of the Department, from corresponding directly with members of the Dáil and Seanad.

As a representative of the people, I strenuously and strongly object to writing to one person concerning a matter relating to my constituency and getting a reply from somebody else. It must be desperately embarrassing for the heads of the various departments in the Office of the Board of Works to know that they are not trusted by the political head of the Department, the Parliamentary Secretary, to write to a Deputy or a Senator.

Every other member of the Government seems to have sufficient confidence and trust in the officers under him. There was no need for a special regulation so that the Parliamentary Secretary would deal personally with all correspondence with Deputies and Senators. Did anyone ever ask himself why was there a need for such a regulation? It was an evilly disposed and ill-conceived regulation which has been instituted by the Office of Public Works for political purposes only.

Every one of us knows quite well, because there are ways and means by which we can all get our information, that this is a regulation designed for political purposes entirely, completely and solely. If an Opposition Deputy writes and makes representations to the Office of Public Works about a school or a Garda barracks the reply must come to the Parliamentary Secretary's desk whereupon, when he sees there is good news, he immediately sends to the Fianna Fáil Deputies representing the same constituency an identical letter conveying the good news despite the fact that the Fianna Fáil Deputies may not have made representations concerning the matter.

Mr. O'Malley

That is nonsense.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I want to challenge the Parliamentary Secretary to deny the fact that the time of the officers of the Office of Public Works was taken up preparing and drafting Parliamentary Questions for members of the Fianna Fáil Party to ask in this House.

Mr. O'Malley

Utter nonsense.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Everybody knows that is true—that the officials of the Office of Public Works prepared, drafted, typed and handed over numbers of questions so that the Parliamentary Secretary could have them given to certain Fianna Fáil Deputies for the Dáil Order Paper. That did happen and is happening.

Mr. O'Malley

Nonsense.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Perhaps the Parliamentary Secretary would be good enough to tell us why he has brought in this new regulation?

Mr. O'Malley

I certainly shall.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Perhaps he will tell us why he must answer every letter from every Deputy and Senator. I am inclined to agree with the Taoiseach when he said that every Minister and Parliamentary Secretary should know what occurs in his Department. That is what he is being paid for. By all means, he should know what is going on in his Department, but why should the head of a Department, by regulation, be prevented from corresponding with people whom he can trust? That is something I cannot possibly understand. I fail to understand why any sane, commonsense, responsible man in any Department should bring in such a regulation and be so different from every other Parliamentary Secretary and from every Minister.

It is common knowledge there are senior officials in the Board of Works today who meet Deputies and Senators who have been old friends of theirs for many years. They meet them at social functions and elsewhere and have to apologise and say: "I am terribly sorry. I will talk to you on the telephone but Mr. O'Malley has a new regulation which says I may not write to you. Much as I should like to write to you, I cannot do so. It is a practice we do not like because we have been trusted for many years by every head of the Department until now." This is the first time the shadow of dishonesty and mistrust has fallen on these responsible officials.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating private conversations and that is not in order.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

These conversations are not in private. There is nothing private in an official telling a Senator or a Deputy he cannot write to him—that the correspondence must come from the Parliamentary Secretary's office. There is nothing private about the apologies Deputies have been getting from officials in that Department. This practice was never changed or altered before and it has happened now only because the office of Public Works has been converted into Fianna Fáil headquarters at the expense of the State, out of public moneys. Their headquarters have been changed from Upper Mount Street to 51 St. Stephen's Green so that every Fianna Fáil Deputy is now getting a good service.

Fianna Fáil Deputies have every reason to applaud this; they have every reason to be grateful for it. The Parliamentary Secretary has this much to be proud of: he is the only head of that Office who did proclaim openly that this office belonged to the Party. There must be a certain amount of satisfaction in sitting behind a Parliamentary Secretary whose allegiance is first and foremost to the Party. Mount Street is now doing the organising work but the correspondence comes out of 51 St. Stephen's Green. So do the good things for Fianna Fáil Deputies and Senators— the good information about the roads, the schools, the grants, the Garda barracks, the drainage schemes, the gangers. Fianna Fáil Deputies get the good news first.

Mr. O'Malley

So only Fianna Fáil children go to school.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I must say the Office of Public Works at the moment is completely and entirely an agency for Fianna Fáil.

Mr. O'Malley

Two hours ago, I appointed a man from the Labour Party.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

As far as I am concerned, every single job being filled from that Office at the moment is a political appointment. Every single overseer and ganger is appointed after scrutiny in conferences inside and outside this House by Fianna Fáil Deputies and the Parliamentary Secretary. That is the reason why the senior officials of the Department will not be allowed to write to anybody. The correspondence must pass through the Parliamentary Secretary. In case the Parliamentary Secretary is not acquainted with Laois-Offaly, I will give him all the facts about it. I place this on record: every single item relating to my constituency will be made known to the Parliamentary Secretary. If he should know his Department, he will also know my constituency inside out because he will answer every single query——

Mr. O'Malley

With the greatest of pleasure.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

——and every single question will appear on the Order Paper if this regulation is retained. He will know every single corner of the constituency I represent.

Mr. O'Malley

That is my job.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It is my job also to put the questions down.

Mr. O'Malley

Good enough.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Until such time as the officials in the Department are given back the trust and confidence they enjoyed before the Parliamentary Secretary inflicted this regulation on them, I shall use the Order Paper of this House for the purpose of dealing with every inquiry in every corner of my constituency. I think it is a disgrace that the time and the business of Dáil Éireann should be taken up by answering such questions which could be dealt with in the ordinary way by a short note.

Mr. O'Malley

And still can.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Provided, of course, that we get the replies from the people we write to.

Mr. O'Malley

As long as my name is not on the reply?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Provided the reply is from the people we wrote to.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy's leaders wrote to me personally.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If the Parliamentary Secretary will listen——

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Dillon wrote to me personally and I replied to him personally.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

This is the place to answer the inquiries and every inquiry I have will be answered here until that regulation is changed. If the regulation is changed and if the Chairman of the Office of Public Works and other heads of the Department are at liberty to send out acknowledgements to the Deputies who write to them, there will be no need in future to load the Order Paper with as many as 120 questions in one day.

Mr. O'Malley

Do not run out of questions.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I guarantee I will not.

Mr. O'Malley

And I guarantee the Deputy I will answer them all.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There will be plenty to answer.

Mr. O'Malley

No other Deputy has complained. I have replied to them; I have replied to Deputy Dillon and I have replied to Deputy Sweetman and the Deputy is the only member of his Party who has attributed a sinister motive to me.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Deputy Sweetman is quite capable of answering for himself. I certainly want to say that I complain. I have registered my complaint. I have told the House that this is evilly disposed and ill-conceived. I still believe that. I still believe the Parliamentary Secretary is sneaking around to see with whom the heads of his Department are consulting, the same as if they were crooks organising a bank raid. He says to his own friends in his office: "Whom were they talking to to-day?" He asks "Was there anyone on the telephone?" and there is a check-up at the switchboard. The like of it was never heard of before.

Mr. O'Malley

Who is telling the Deputy all this?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It is disgraceful for the head of any Department to treat the officers under him in that way. For a number of years, I occupied the position of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture. During that time, many Fianna Fáil Deputies wrote in to the Department for which I was responsible. They wrote to the Secretary. Never on one single occasion did I interfere or ask that they should not get a reply or that it should go through my personal office. They always had the courtesy of the heads of the Department. If the Parliamentary Secretary says that it is through courtesy he wants to deal with the correspondence of Deputies and Senators, surely those who want to be relieved of that courtesy are entitled to the courtesy of that relief?

Mr. O'Malley

Not courtesy alone. I shall give my reasons when replying.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If public representatives want a reply from the Secretary of the Office of Public Works, they are entitled to it. There is a duty on the head of that State Department to acknowledge the representations made by public representatives, but when he is prevented from doing so by a regulation——

Mr. O'Malley

He is not prevented from doing so by a regulation.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

What happens, then? I would love to hear.

Mr. O'Malley

I did not like to interrupt the Deputy in his tirade for the past half-hour, which I think he has put over very ably. The suggestion of the ruling I have given to my officials is that any letter written by a member of either House of the Oireachtas will be replied to by me personally. I shall give my reasons for that when replying. The Deputy has made a statement that I have issued a regulation that any official of the Office of Public Works is not empowered to reply to a Deputy. My instructions are that they are to acknowledge the letter and state that the Parliamentary Secretary will deal with the matter and reply directly in due course.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Is that not what I am objecting to?

Mr. O'Malley

You said they were prohibited.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Of course, they are. The civil servant is to write out and say: "The Parliamentary Secretary is considering the matter and he will write to you himself."

Mr. O'Malley

That is my job. Will you let me run my job as best I can? It is hard enough, God knows.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Of course, it was also a difficult job for Deputy Brennan, who did it well. It was also a difficult job for the late Deputy Beegan, whose courtesy will be long remembered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has gone over all this ground before and repetition is not in order.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I fail to see why this regulation should be imposed on those who do not want it.

Mr. O'Malley

Two Deputies in the whole House.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I cannot say how many they are. I can speak only for myself.

Mr. O'Malley

A Deputy's politics are of no interest to me. I have my business to do and I do it to the best of my ability for all Deputies and Senators.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Assuming there are two Deputies who do not want this regulation, will the Parliamentary Secretary make arrangements whereby the courtesy that has been extended to us for the last 20 years may be continued?

Mr. O'Malley

Is the Deputy aware that an offer has already been made? If this great objection Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Sweetman have is to the name "Donogh O'Malley" at the bottom of a letter, I made an offer that I would enclose the facts of the case in question—Mrs. Culley's 40 perches of drainage—with a covering letter on a blank sheet of paper and my name would not appear on it at all, so the Deputy could hand it to his constituent and there would be no name of a Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Secretary on it. I made that offer and it is still open.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

May I ask the Parliamentary Secretary why we cannot have the name of the Chairman of the Office of Public Works?

Mr. O'Malley

I shall give you his name, too——

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That solves the whole problem.

Mr. O'Malley

I shall give you his name, too, but not at the bottom of a letter of mine. The Deputy is making a mountain out of a molehill.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

But the molehill is very stinking.

Mr. O'Malley

I have a job to do. What other Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries do is no concern of mine. They have a job to do themselves and I do not interfere. What the Deputy does not understand is that my regulation applies purely to letters sent by any members of the Houses here, that I will reply to them. I will give my full reasons for this when I am replying to the debate. I am putting no prohibition whatever on the Chairman of the Office of Public Works——

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Of course, you are.

Mr. O'Malley

I am not finished. He or any other Commissioner or member of the architectural or engineering staff can reply to any member of the public.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

But cannot answer a Deputy?

Mr. O'Malley

No.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Ah, that is where it comes in.

Mr. O'Malley

Certainly not. That is the regulation. But one would think from what the Deputy said that I had a regulation that I did not trust the civil servants to reply to anyone.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

No, to Deputies and Senators. The Chief Engineer, the late Mr. Winters, when dealing with the Brosna drainage scheme, was tactful and courteous and showed great kindness. Whenever a letter was written to him, he always answered it over his own name. Mr. Cross, an outstanding man in his profession, with years of experience in the Office of Public Works, always sent a courteous reply to Deputies and Senators whenever correspondence was addressed to him. That is all finished now by regulation. Mr. O'Hegarty has been dealing with Deputies probably since this State was founded. He always corresponded directly with Deputies or Senators and dealt with them in an impartial way, promptly and with no political bias whatever. Mr. O'Hegarty can no longer deal with our correspondence. It must come through the Parliamentary Secretary. The fact that we are now to get some kind of anonymous letter from the Office of Public Works makes the matters still more mysterious. The Parliamentary Secretary has offered to send out a letter to Deputies and Senators without any name on it.

Mr. O'Malley

I said I would enclose——

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Perhaps I took him up wrongly. Will he tell us now about the letter with no name?

Mr. O'Malley

I shall try and be as tolerant as I can. If the Deputy has an objection to my name appearing at the end of a letter, I said I would enclose a reply, and attach to it a plain piece of paper without my name and with a statement of the relevant facts of the case. Could anything be clearer?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

What would I do with it?

Mr. O'Malley

I would not like to tell the Deputy what he could do with it.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is just what I do with correspondence I get from the Parliamentary Secretary.

Mr. O'Malley

Therefore, there is no point in corresponding with the Deputy.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is just what one would expect to do with correspondence from a person of the Parliamentary Secretary's make-up.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us get back to the Estimate.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

In dealing with this Estimate, naturally enough, we are dealing with the personnel over whom the Parliamentary Secretary presides. Now the Parliamentary Secretary is reinforced with the wisdom and knowledge of the Minister for Justice being whispered in his ear.

Mr. Haughey

I did not say a word.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

We might now be able, with the aid and assistance of the Minister for Justice, to unravel the knot in which the Parliamentary Secretary finds himself. The Parliamentary Secretary now tells the House that in future he will write a letter for Deputies and Senators who make representations, and he will attach——

Mr. O'Malley

I said no such thing; I said I would send it to Deputy Flanagan and Deputy Sweetman, if they so wish.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

He will write a letter to us and enclose a blank sheet——

Mr. O'Malley

No.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

A sheet on which will be typed the facts of the case in which we are interested—but there will be no name at the bottom. Is that right?

Mr. O'Malley

That is right.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

What we will do with these anonymous letters is far beyond my comprehension?

(Interruptions.)

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Parliamentary Secretary will send out these unsigned letters——

Mr. O'Malley

If so requested.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If so requested. I will not suggest what the Parliamentary Secretary has suggested about these unsigned letters, but some of them may be important enough to avoid the catastrophe which he has in mind for the correspondence and what is to stop him from agreeing to allow the Chairman of the Office of Public Works to send out responses to requests addressed to the Chairman, and not the Parliamentary Secretary? There is nothing to stop him from doing what has been done under five or six Parliamentary Secretaries, to my knowledge. May I say again that this new regulation is in operation in no other State Department except the Office of Public Works?

Mr. O'Malley

Do not be too sure of that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Do not be too sure?

Mr. O'Malley

No.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am sure. I have had correspondence with the Secretary of the Department of Justice and I have received the same courtesy from him as I always got despite the fact that I write an odd line to the Minister himself——

Mr. Haughey

When the Deputy really wants something.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I have never had a letter from the Minister for Justice which warrants the same fate as the Parliamentary Secretary has forecast for some of his own correspondence, and on occasion the Minister for Justice writes a letter which contains good news.

Mr. Haughey

I will have to catch myself on.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Minister for Justice has not—and neither has any other Minister to my knowledge— prevented the heads of Departments from doing what has been the practice for over 20 years. I want to take this opportunity to end this matter. It could be dealt with and disposed of on what I might describe as terms of friendliness. I can assure the Parliamentary Secretary I have no dislike for the name, "Donogh O'Malley". It is the principle I am dealing with. The various heads of the Departments have dealt with this correspondence for over 20 years, and there is no reason why that practice should be discontinued.

Mr. O'Malley

There are lots of reasons, and I will give them.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is what I am so mystified about. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will never get up to reply because I am so eager to know what is the reason why he cannot trust the Chairman of the Office of Public Works.

Mr. O'Malley

It is not a question of that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

What is it?

Mr. O'Malley

I will deal with it comprehensively when I am replying.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Is it possible that I am to be kept in this state of intense wonderment and imagination for the weekend? I am full of curiosity at the moment because I cannot imagine any possible sound reason in the mind of the Parliamentary Secretary for this new regulation. The reason is the reason I gave earlier, to use his office as the chief political organiser for Fianna Fáil and to communicate the work of the Opposition to his Party. That has been done.

Mr. O'Malley

No one in the House can say that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I say it.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy is wrong.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

It has been done and is being done.

Mr. O'Malley

May I ask the Deputy a question by way of interruption?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Certainly—I am always glad to answer questions.

Mr. O'Malley

If my office is the great political headquarters which the Deputy alleges it is, why did I say today in response to representation from the Labour members of the House that I had given instructions that a man whose wife was ill was to be appointed to a job forthwith and I had two representations from Fianna Fáil Deputies for the same job. I can stand over that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I am not talking about that.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy is saying that these appointments are political and that there is bribery and corruption in the Office of Public Works.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Yes, since the Parliamentary Secretary went into it.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy is suggesting that all the appointments to jobs on gangs are political.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Since the Parliamentary Secretary went there, the Office of Public Works has been transformed completely and entirely into a political machine. The most regrettable part is that the Parliamentary Secretary wants to drag in people with unblemished Civil Service records. That is the sad part of it and that is why I am taking this opportunity now to mention it. I have refrained this week from putting down any Parliamentary Questions because I was waiting until the Parliamentary Secretary would have an opportunity to deal with this matter on his Estimate.

Mr. Lalor

The Deputy is spun out.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If I had the Office of Public Works to draft my Questions like the Deputy, I would be all right. I have to draft my own. The taxpayers do not draft mine.

Mr. O'Malley

They pay for them.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I have to draft my own.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy got them from the list I sent him.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Fianna Fáil have theirs drafted and typed by the officers of the Office of Public Works.

Mr. O'Malley

Who are the officers? Give the full name.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Civil servants' names should not be mentioned in this House when they have no opportunity to defend themselves.

Mr. O'Malley

It took the Deputy 30 years to find that out.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There are some broadminded people associated with the Office of Public Works, despite the very great pressure which is being brought to bear upon them. Some of those broadminded people feel it is their civic and public duty to try to make known to some of us in Opposition what is going on behind the scenes in the Office of Public Works.

May I assure the officers of the Office of Public Works that no name of any individual will ever be given to the Parliamentary Secretary or in this House by me? I am grateful for any information I may get from them but their names will never be mentioned by me no matter what attempt the Parliamentary Secretary may make to extract from me the names of those who may be favourably disposed towards me. I am too long associated with public life now to turn myself into an informer against any civil servant who has given loyal and good service to this country and to the Office of Public Works.

The officers of the Office of Public Works never worked under as great a strain as they are working under at the moment, the strain of being looked upon with suspicion, as if they were spies of an extraordinary character and the thought that, unless they are favourably disposed towards the Parliamentary Secretary and the touts behind him, they cannot make a telephone call without having the sinister threat of Fianna Fáil hanging over their heads.

Mr. O'Malley

We are getting in a new switch board.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The procedure now being adopted by the Parliamentary Secretary will eventually react upon himself. If the Parliamentary Secretary has to know his job there is one way in which he will know it and that is through this House. I can assure him that unless this regulation is changed, I will continue to use the Order Paper, and waste the space of the Order Paper, to get my information. If the Parliamentary Secretary wants to call a truce on that, if he is prepared to change the regulation and have these questions dealt with in the way they ought to be by the Office, I am prepared to meet him.

Mr. O'Malley

I will deal with them.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

If you are going to deal with them they will be dealt with in this House which is probably the place to deal with them in any case. However, since the Parliamentary Secretary has invited this they will be dealt with in this House. This regulation is one which must disturb the nostrils of every decent citizen. The regulation stinks. May I assure the Parliamentary Secretary that whatever political kudos I can get from the Office of Public Works is very limited? I have secured one, two and sometimes three quotas at every general election since 1934. Whether the Office of Public Works functions or not I will get a couple of quotas every time.

Mr. Lalor

There must be no schools in our constituency.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

And I will help the Deputy to get in here as I helped him in the last general election I will always have 1,000 or 2,000 votes left over that he can rely on. I could not help a more decent man or a more loyal colleague than Deputy Lalor. I am glad that while I am left there, he is quite safe.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Would the Deputy come back to the Estimate?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Having helped the Deputy with the knowledge that his seat is fairly safe in this House for a long time, I will now get back to the Estimate.

Mr. O'Malley

We have not got to the Estimate at all yet.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

We have plenty of time. The appointments that have been made by the Parliamentary Secretary in the Office of Public Works have been made and are being made in consultation with his own Party Deputies. That is wrong. It is unfair and unreasonable.

Mr. O'Malley

What kind of appointments?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

All appointments that have to be made in any Department should be made on merit and quality and not on the political affiliations of the applicant. That is why the Parliamentary Secretary does not trust the officers of his Department. The shroud of suspicion that he has thrown over them in the last couple of months is proof that there is a gap between the officers of the Department and the Parliamentary Secretary himself. For the successful functioning of any Department there must be a degree of co-operation between the staff and the Minister in charge. If that is not there the smooth functioning of the Department cannot be expected. There is no smooth functioning in the Office of Public Works at the moment. There is no leadership, no head, no tail and conditions are completely chaotic.

Mr. O'Malley

Tell us about the political appointments?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Parliamentary Secretary knows more about them because he is making them. He will make them while he is there. Naturally enough those who are sitting behind him are delighted and why not? Having said that the office is without leadership, a political den, politically corrupt I will go further and say that it is rotten and evilly disposed and further that it is being pushed into decay and corruption since the present Parliamentary Secretary took over. There must be a purpose behind the ban which denies Deputies and Senators their legal right to correspond with the civil servants in that Department. I suppose it is in order to conceal his evilly disposed political actions and to save his face with the public that the Parliamentary Secretary has deprived the heads of his Department of the right they always had of free correspondence with members of the Oireachtas. When he is so anxious to be familiar with all aspects of his Department I should like him to make himself familiar with all the drainage problems throughout the country.

Is it not true that at the last general election, and that the one that preceded it, we heard from every platform throughout the length and breadth of the country about arterial drainage? The Act was there, passed in all its power and glory. But is it not also true to say that under Fianna Fáil the Arterial Drainage Act, so far as those parts of the country that really need drainage are concerned, is lying on the shelves, closed up, covered with dust, surrounded with cobwebs?

Mr. O'Malley

Statistics do not indicate that.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Surely we were led to believe that a Fianna Fáil Government would drain all the rivers in the country? Listening to Fianna Fáil speakers at the last general election, and the one that preceded it, anyone would think comprehensive arterial drainage was top priority in Fianna Fáil policy.

They have the law behind them now. The Arterial Drainage Act is there. For years, people have been talking about the Boyne. Deputy Tully was talking about it here a few moments ago. Anyone who knows the country round the Boyne reasonably well knows that the Boyne is a river that should have been embarked on long ago. It should have been one of the first to be attended to under arterial drainage. It is a very important river. It should have been one of the first tackled.

Mr. Millar

Before the Brosna?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Not alone did Fianna Fáil leave the Arterial Drainage Act festooned with cobwebs and covered with dust, but they also put another Act, which was designed to give relief to flooded communities all over the country, on the shelf also. We cannot deal with that Act on this Estimate.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is proceeding to deal with it.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That Act was responsible for the drainage of small streams and rivers leading to main rivers cleaned and drained under the Arterial Drainage Act. People are now deprived of the benefits of that Act. As far as implementing the Arterial Drainage Act is concerned, it is a case of "Live horse and you will get grass". One would imagine that the Parliamentary Secretary, with his unlimited energy, would devote himself to exploring the possibility of carrying out some of the arterial drainage that has so far not been mentioned.

Mr. O'Malley

Would the Deputy read my speech introducing the Estimate?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I did, and I do not believe a word of it. I do not see any men working. Reading a speech is one thing; seeing men along the banks and dredgers working on the rivers is another.

Mr. Carty

I saw that only last week in my constituency.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I saw it when Deputy J.A. Costello in the inter-Party Government came down and blew the whistle that started the work on the Brosna in my constituency.

Mr. Carty

The Parliamentary Secretary did that in my constituency.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There are many things of which we can be proud but the one about which we can be proudest in the short time we were in office is that we took the cobwebs and the dust off the Arterial Drainage Act. We blew the whistle and started the work. Hard as it is for Fianna Fáil Deputies to believe it, when the inter-Party Government took office, they found one of their first tasks was to commence arterial drainage. It had not been heard of previously.

Mr. Carty

Who passed the Act?

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

Passing the Act is one thing and draining the rivers another. I want to see the rivers drained. I want to see the dredgers working. I want to see the men employed. I do not mind the introductory speech on the Estimate, the Acts of Parliament closed up and put away on the shelves, with the cobwebs forming curtains over them. That is one thing. I want to see activity on the river banks, rivers being widened, deepened, and cleaned, new bridges being erected. That is what I call action.

Mr. Carty

And that is what we are getting now.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

That is the work Deputy Costello, as Taoiseach in the inter-Party Government set in motion when he blew the whistle at Mylerstown Bridge. Deputy Donnellan and Deputy Blowick were also there at Shannonharbour. Deputy K. Egan knows the place well.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

We started on the first arterial drainage scheme after the passing of the Act. Listening to the Parliamentary Secretary, reading a speech made by Deputy Carty, speaking some fine night at Mountbellew—

Mr. Carty

I do not go that far north.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

——we can read about the activity of the Office of Public Works. Now, paper never refuses ink. Nice after-dinner speeches read beautifully. Nothing reads so well. Whether it is the Parliamentary Secretary speaking at a drainage scheme, the Minister for Lands speaking on NATO at a fishery dinner, or the Minister for Transport and Power in Clery's Ballroom talking about transport, nothing reads so well as an after-dinner speech. It is from these after-dinner speeches we hear all about the drainage being undertaken under the Arterial Drainage Act.

Mr. O'Malley

£14,500,000 worth has been done to date. That is not a bad figure.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

These speeches are all very fine, but what I want to see is evidence of practical activity on the river banks. I should like to hear from the Parliamentary Secretary when he comes to reply, if he ever does come to reply, when he hopes all the rivers he has in mind will be drained because, if arterial drainage progresses at its present rate, it will be the year 2062 before the work will be accomplished. One would expect that, under the Arterial Drainage Act, a river like the Nore would have been dealt with long ago. Everybody knows that some years ago the entire city of Kilkenny was flooded. The seats in a Catholic church were floating around. Special appeals were made by the Bishop of Ossory, by the Kilkenny Corporation, by public representatives, to have a scheme of drainage carried out on the river Nore.

I remember a meeting a long time ago at which the late Deputy Tom Walsh and the late Deputy Tom Derrig were present. I think both were Ministers at the time. Everybody left the meeting under the impression that in the course of weeks the dredgers would be working on the river Nore and there would be no more floods in Ballyragget, around Durrow, Killane, around parts of County Laois. Thomastown was to be finished with floods and kilkenny was to have no more water on the roads or in the fields. From that day to this nobody even sneezed about the Nore. They never heard of the river Nore.

Mr. P.J. Burke

What about the six years you were there?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Burke might allow Deputy Flanagan to make his speech.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The drainage of major rivers is of the greatest national importance because land reclamation drainage cannot be effectively undertaken until that other work is carried out. Of course the real story behind it and the reason why arterial drainage is held up is the same reason why the Local Authorities (Works) Act was scrapped. Fianna Fáil are trying to make the Land Reclamation Scheme a failure because it was Deputy Dillon's scheme. If arterial drainage is not carried out, effective land drainage cannot be undertaken because there will be no place for the heavy flow of water to go. Then the Office of Public Works will have helped the Minister for Agriculture in decrying and degrading the Land Reclamation Scheme. Drainage under that scheme cannot possibly be undertaken until the arterial drainage schemes for the big rivers have been completed.

Mr. O'Malley

Which was one of the defects of the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Land Reclamation Scheme suffered a very serious setback because of the scrapping of the Local Authorities (Works) Act coupled with the inactivity in the Board of Works in relation to arterial drainage. I will give even Fianna Fáil Deputies credit for understanding that unless the main rivers are first drained the small streams cannot be undertaken because there will be no outlet for the water. We have conclusive evidence that the Office of Public Works in their failure to commence extensive drainage schemes have a twofold purpose in mind, that the Land Reclamation Scheme will follow the Local Authorities (Works) Act.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has already made that point and repetition is not in order.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

The Office of Public Works have failed to give the country a comprehensive drainage scheme. I cannot understand why the Parliamentary Secretary has failed in any of his after-dinner speeches to give us an idea as to when all our rivers will be drained under the 1945 Act. There are always three or four rivers under consideration with the engineering section of the Office of Public Works, being mapped out and levels being taken. Is it possible that there is a shortage of engineers in the Office of Public Works? It appears to me that there are as many engineers in the Office of Public Works as there are labourers on the drainage schemes. There seems to be no shortage but there is clear and ample evidence of inactivity in regard to the completion of the arterial drainage programme.

Mr. O'Malley

There was never so much money spent as last year, a record figure.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I want to ask when the House may expect some idea as to when all the rivers that have yet to be commenced are likely to be commenced. It must be borne in mind that the land owners are in a very difficult position due to flooding. Farmers are expected to increase production and to work harder. Rates are continually rising. Yet, those schemes which should be undertaken by the Office of Public Works are still on the long finger.

Mr. O'Malley

I have got some information for the Deputy. In 1948-49 the expenditure under the Arterial Drainage Act was £67,000. In 1961-62 the expenditure was £765,000.

Mr. Blowick

That is not a comparison.

Mr. Carty

Twelve times the amount.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

What has that got to do with what I am talking about?

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy was suggesting that the Office of Public Works have become moribund and that there was no progress. I want to point out in fairness to everyone that a record sum was spent this year and as Deputy Carty suggested it is twelve times more than was spent in the first year of the Deputy's Government.

Mr. Blowick

You could not expect to spend £750,000 the year it was started.

Mr. S. Collins

What is he blowing about? The Deputy should give us credit for some intelligence.

Mr. Blowick

When I am speaking I shall be asking the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Malley, why it was that it took three years for the arterial egg to hatch out, from 1945 to 1948.

Mr. O'Malley

Many surveys have been made.

Mr. Blowick

But not one single shovelful of stuff was removed.

Mr. O'Malley

You cannot go in on a Monday morning with bulldozers without a survey.

Mr. Blowick

The survey is not much good to the farmer when his land is flooded. He wants the job done.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Flanagan is in possession.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

I shall give the Parliamentary Secretary credit for having enough commonsense to realise that drainage on a map and on paper is no use to the man with flooded land.

Mr. O'Malley

We shall stand over our figures, record figures.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

There is no use in trying to convince the farmer by shoving a bunch of figures under his nose that his land has been drained. There is no use in bringing along a book of statistics to a man who has to row a boat to get in and out of his house to get his daughter to school. There is no use in saying to him: "We are spending twelve times more on drainage now than when the inter-Party Government were in office." The Parliamentary Secretary would be better occupied to leave the book of statistics at home——

A Deputy

Because they do not suit the Deputy.

Mr. O.J. Flanagan

——and instead to make an order, similar to the order he has made, for the Office of Public Works to get out the bulldozers and the dredgers, and to have a notice posted up at the labour exchanges saying that there is drainage work available for every man on the exchange. That would be more practical.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 5 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday 10th July, 1962.