Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Jul 1962

Vol. 196 No. 12

Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take business in the following order: Nos. 1, 2, 3, 12, 13, 14, 15 and 16, and in No. 16 Vote 43 and the Supplementary Estimate. It is proposed to interrupt business at 1.30 p.m. to take No. 15 and, when completed, to resume the Order of Business. Questions will be taken at 3 p.m. It is not proposed to interrupt Public Business to take Private Members' Business. I also have an announcement to make regarding the business of the session. Following discussions between the Whips, the programme of business for the session has been revised as follows — Bills: all Stages of the Rates on Agricultural Land (Relief) Bill, Local Government (Sanitary Services) Bill, Housing (Loans and Grants) Bill, Restriction of Imports Bill—these four Bills have been ordered for Second Reading today — the Social Welfare Bill, which is being introduced today, and the Army Pensions Bill, which will be introduced tomorrow; and the Committee and Remaining Stages of the State Guarantees (Transport) Bill and the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, and the Report and Final Stages of the Intoxicating Liquor Bill; the Estimate and Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, the Supplementary Estimate for Agricultural Grants — I presume that can be taken in conjunction with the Bill — a Supplementary Estimate for Increases in Pensions and possibly another Supplementary Estimate.

So far as the main Estimates are concerned, it has been agreed that, apart from the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture, discussion on the remaining Estimates will be adjourned to the next Dáil session. This will be achieved by the passing of these Estimates now without debate, the Government undertaking to submit token Estimates for all the Departments concerned and to provide time for their discussion during the next session. A motion designed to give effect to this arrangement will be submitted to the Dáil.

Mr. Sweetman

On the statement the Taoiseach has made, we have not yet seen the Army Pensions Bill and I made this arrangement subject to——

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be circulated tomorrow morning.

Mr. Sweetman

The same remark applies to "possibly another Supplementary Estimate".

The Taoiseach

I put that in as a precaution.

Mr. Sweetman

I guessed that. In relation to the Estimates, the agreement is that there will be a token Estimate for all Estimates not discussed, not one global Estimate.

The Taoiseach

The intention would be to provide for the normal discussion on Dáil Estimates.

Mr. Sweetman

Exactly.

The Taoiseach

In the case, say, of the Estimates taken by the Minister for Finance there would normally be one debate on these Estimates, and it will be designed to facilitate that type of discussion. If a separate discussion is desired on any particular Estimate, that can be arranged.

Mr. Sweetman

As long as I have that undertaking from the Taoiseach, I am satisfied.

Mr. Corish

I gathered from the Minister for Finance that we intend to resume on 30th October.

The Taoiseach

No; the Minister for Finance introduced a Bill, the Second Reading of which was ordered for the 30th October. The Government have not yet finally decided on the date of resumption but I hope to be able to make an announcement next week.

Mr. Corish

If it were to be the 30th October, we would just get cluttered up again with business in the next session, having resumed so late.

The Taoiseach

Not necessarily. Part of the reason why business is in arrears is that so little was done in the winter session of last year because of circumstances of which Deputies are aware——

Mr. Sweetman

Yes, the Government did not submit any Bills.

The Taoiseach

The Government came back to office after an election and normally there might not have been——

Mr. T. Lynch

We had the Fluoridation of Water Bill and a lot of nonsense.

The Taoiseach

It is true that the debates on the Estimates will occupy a considerable amount of the available time and there will have to be three-day meetings, which are not usual in that session.

Mr. Corish

The Taoiseach will appreciate that invariably we find ourselves in this sort of mess—that may not be the correct way to describe it — and has he thought of devising some other method whereby we could have the consideration of the Estimates earlier in the year?

The Taoiseach

That suggestion has been made on many occasions during the past 30 or 40 years. I think it would be possible to devise a system by which the financial business of the Dáil can be done at a time and in a manner more convenient to Deputies. The Government would be quite prepared to discuss that with other Parties but we have no proposals ourselves to put forward because anything which might appear to involve curtailment of the scope of debate would be primarily a matter for the Opposition Parties to suggest rather than the Government.

Mr. Dillon

There is a perfectly simple remedy to this perennial dilemma and that is for the Government to present Bills for discussion between October and Christmas——

The Taoiseach

Yes, well, there are——

Mr. Dillon

—— and leave this part of the year to financial business. If we are showered with Bills between Easter and the Summer Recess we will always get into this kind of mess at the end of the legislative session. I would urge the Taoiseach to do as I hope to do when I succeed him and that is to confine the introduction of legislation to the earlier part of the year and dispose of that volume of legislation and leave this part of the year to the settlement of the financial business.

The Taoiseach

My recollection does not support the view that when the Deputy was a Minister, the problem was handled any better than now. Many of the Bills are in consequence of the Budget.

Mr. McQuillan

Yesterday this House dealt with two very important Bills in a very short space of time. Over £2,000,000 was voted to CIE and a vast sum, running into several millions, to the ESB. The discussion on that vast sum of money took less than three hours while from 15 to 20 hours have been devoted to other matters.

The Taoiseach

Nobody restricted the debate on these Bills.

Mr. McQuillan

The business collapsed last night at 10 o'clock.

Mr. Dillon

No; the House completed the business at 10.15 p.m.

Mr. McQuillan

It was intended that the House would sit until 11 o'clock but, nevertheless, the House adjourned three-quarters of an hour before that time. There was time available over the past six months for the discussion and the carrying out of Government business but now huge sums are voted in the space of 20 minutes without any discussion at all. I feel that this House should remain in session until such important Estimates as that of the Department of Justice are dealt with. These discussions should not be left over until next Christmas when all the harm will have been done. I object as strongly as I possibly can to any decision of the House to adjourn until the business is completed.