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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 Nov 1962

Vol. 197 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Local Government.

I move:—

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Grants.

The total provision in my Department's Estimate for the current financial year is £6,061,340. There is a net increase of £572,880 on the corresponding provision in the last financial year.

The chief increases are a grant of £200,000 to supplement the Road Fund; a sum of £155,000 representing the increase in the provision necessary to be made for recoupment of loan charges in respect of housing; and an increase of £100,000 in the provision for private housing grants.

The total of grants and subsidies for housing now stands at £4,846,000. In association with the expenditure of voted moneys, there is a steady rise in capital issues for housing purposes, which were just over £6,000,000 in 1961-62 and will probably exceed £7,000,000 this year. The total sum to be provided for housing in the current year is therefore about £12,000,000, comprising almost £5,000,000 in grants and subsidies and £7,000,000 in capital issues.

The volume of private housing now exceeds the output of local authority housing. An increasing number of people find it possible with the assistance of the Housing Acts to provide their own houses. This tendency is to be welcomed but I would also welcome a further increase in the output of local authorities. The number of houses in progress last September was 2,502 dwellings as compared with 2,230 on the same date last year and I hope that there will be a corresponding increase in the number of houses completed this year as compared with 1961-62.

Local authorities have done a good job on housing over the years. By and large they have attained their post-war objectives by eliminating the back log of urban slum conditions and carried out a substantial programme of cottage building in the rural areas.

There remains a substantial volume of unfit and overcrowded housing in the county health districts. I think it would be true to say that a large portion of this type of bad housing relates to people who are either unable or unwilling to re-house themselves and whose names and housing conditions have not been on record. This particular problem could not therefore be tackled without up-to-date information. Last year I mentioned the steps that were taken to have local authorities carry out comprehensive surveys in their areas so that new programmes could be prepared to eliminate the remaining unfit housing conditions. I mentioned also that progress with the surveys had been slow and I stressed the importance of completing them so that the location and extent of the problem could be adequately gauged and a comprehensive programme formulated accordingly. These surveys have not yet been fully completed but sufficient information is now available to show the general types of problems which remain to be solved. So far as new legislation can assist their solution the Dáil has already approved of the Bill relating to grants and loans for private housing. A Bill to supplement and improve the existing legislation relating to the housing functions of the local authorities is under consideration.

Expenditure on grants towards private enterprise housing in the last financial year fell short of the amount provided by about £200,000. This was due to some special difficulties which arose during the year which it is hoped will not recur. Cement was in short supply from April to June 1961 owing to the strike that occurred in that period. We had difficulties in recruiting and maintaining an adequate staff of housing inspectors. Finally we had abnormally severe weather conditions during the Winter. By increasing the voted provision for grants by £100,000 we propose therefore in effect to spend £300,000 more this year than last year. The staffing difficulties of 1961 have been solved and I expect that grant applicants will be given a satisfactory service in the present year. Grant applications of all types in 1961-62 were approximately 22,000, being 18 per cent. higher than those of the previous year and reaching the highest level ever experienced. New house grant allocations rose by 3 per cent. while reconstruction, repair and improvement grants rose by 22 per cent. on the previous year. The allocations for the provision of water and sewerage facilities in private houses in rural areas increased by more than 30 per cent.

With the development of the co-operative group system for the provision of private water supplies, I anticipate still further increases in payments for these grants this year. Up to now 18 group water supply schemes covering 313 houses have been completed and 768 schemes to serve 12,000 houses approximately are at various stages of planning and development.

The Estimate contains a provision of £475,000 for contribution towards loan charges of local authorities in respect of sanitary services works. This represents an increase of £50,000 on the provision for the previous financial year. Local authority activity for the provision, extension and improvement of water supply and sewerage services throughout the country continues to quicken. There was an increase of £500,000 in the draws on loans for sanitary services schemes in 1961-62 as compared with 1960-61. The rate of expansion of the programme in the current and future years should, however, show a much higher rate of increase. Schemes at the contract and later stages at present represent work to a total value of over £11 million.

It is scarcely necessary for me to refer again this year in any detail to the advantages of piped water supplies from the point of view of public health, agricultural efficiency, domestic comfort and tourist and industrial developments. There is general agreement on the desirability of promoting something tantamount to a revolution in rural conditions so far as sanitary services are concerned. There has been some argument about ways and means. I was credited, quite mistakenly, with the intention of solving the whole problem by means of regional water supplies. The misunderstanding probably arose out of my desire to have county councils survey their areas in order to establish, on a basis of ascertained fact, what means or combination of means, would be the most suitable and economical for servicing the different areas.

The surveys carried out show in all cases that the answer lies in a combination of the different methods— regional schemes, smaller public schemes, private group schemes and individual private installations—rather than in the exclusive use of a single type of scheme. The results of the survey merely confirm what I have been stressing over the past three years, namely, that there was need for the fullest co-operation between local authorities, group organisations and private enterprise and that there should be a joint approach to the problem so that all the available resources may be brought into play to achieve our objectives as quickly and as economically as possible.

Lest any vestige of misunderstanding of the regional programme should remain, I wish to say that I have made it clear to local authorities that regional schemes should be adopted only where all the factors, including topography, population distribution and density and the capacity of sources of supply, indicate that a regional scheme is best suited and most economic in the circumstances of a particular area. Both directly through my administrative and technical officers and indirectly through the local authorities, I have taken every possible step to encourage the rapid expansion of private group schemes and individual private installations.

I have asked local authorities to take special steps to make the inhabitants of those areas not proposed to be serviced by public supplies aware of this fact, so that the people concerned may avail themselves of the special movement which I am fostering for the development of co-operative supplies in such areas. I propose also to extend the co-operation afforded by officers of my Department to advise and assist local authorities on water supply programmes with special reference to the possibility of securing economies in the case of some regional schemes by having the distribution network infilled as far as practicable by group schemes organised on a private co-operative basis.

As regards prospective rate increases arising out of the sanitary services programme, the general picture presented by the programmes adopted to date shows for the 17 county councils who have so far adopted comprehensive or interim programmes that the average ultimate increase would be about 2/- in the £ and that the various rates making up this average would be subject to some reduction by the income from water charges. This confirms me in the belief I expressed when introducing last year's Estimate that the elected members of the local authorities can be relied on to protect the interests of the ratepayers. I hope that the general picture of progress which I am now giving will encourage other county councils who have not yet adopted definite sanitary services programmes to do so without delay, if only in fairness to private interests who are eager to develop their part of the programme but who must first know how far their county council intend to go with public schemes.

Before I leave the question of costs of sanitary services schemes, I wish to say that I am by no means complacent in regard to current increases in construction costs. Some increase can be accounted for by wage increases but I propose to keep a close watch on costs generally and to ensure that there will be as much competition as possible in tendering.

This year again I have communicated with sanitary authorities about water safety, swimming pools and beaches. I have expressed satisfaction with the progress made, particularly in the signposting of dangerous bathing places and in the supply of life-saving equipment, but I told them I was still deeply concerned at the continued loss of life through drowning. I have urged them to do all that was possible so that not a single life may be lost through lack of reasonable precaution. In regard to swimming pools, I am gratified at the ready response of some sanitary authorities and private interests to my previous calls for a planned programme for the provision of adequate swimming facilities but I am still looking for a more positive approach by other local authorities where such provision is still needed. The financial assistance available from the State and the local authority, combined with local effort and initiative, should enable safe swimming facilities to be provided, where needed, and, as a consequence, the young people could be taught swimming and life-saving in safe and healthy surroundings. I have also urged on sanitary authorities the need for vigorous action to deal with dangerous nuisances such as broken glass and rusty tins on beaches.

Progress has been made in the control of temporary dwellings in the past year but there are some notable exceptions, including areas of tourist resort, where there is still not effective control. I should like to remind sanitary authorities again of my warning that if local initiative does not prove adequate in this matter it will be necessary to enforce the recommended standards. I think that it would be reasonable to fix the present year as terminating the period in which a rather lenient view is being taken in the case of small sites where hardship might be involved by strict enforcement of the standards immediately.

The development of caravan sites may be remunerative in some places, but I recognise that in others it is difficult to get an economic return from large scale expenditure. I would again exhort local authorities to encourage the development of proper caravan sites by assisting with the provision of essential services to the boundaries of the sites where this can be done without undue difficulty or cost.

The loss of some lives during the year from fire and the destruction of substantial properties by major fires, particularly in Limerick and Dublin, has caused me some disquiet. I am satisfied that the fire service generally is satisfactory and I think that the avoidance of such disasters in the future can best be achieved by a major awareness of fire hazards on the part of the public. I propose therefore to set in train arrangements for more effective fire prevention and control propaganda. The making of such arrangements is at present being considered in my Department. A review of existing fire legislation as well as an examination of the local fire services generally are also being undertaken.

The good response to the schemes for the clearance and improvement of derelict sites which was shown at its initiation continues to be maintained, particularly on the part of private individuals. Local authorities are assisting, not so much by submitting applications on their own behalf, as by inducing owners of derelict sites to give undertakings as to their clearance or development. In the course of the year the scope of the Subhead was extended to enable grants to be paid for works of public amenity as well as for derelict sites. Such works include the provision and development of parks, open spaces, playing fields, river-side walks, means of access to beaches and boating facilities. The scheme can also be used for opening up scenic views, landscaping historic buildings and for the general improvement and protection of places and objects of interest. There has been an excellent response to this scheme and works estimated to cost over £50,000 have already been approved.

As already announced I have this year increased the main road upkeep grant from 40 per cent. to 50 per cent. The effect will be not only to compensate road authorities for the abolition of the estate duties grant but also to provide a further relief to local funds in respect of their contribution to main road upkeep. The grant for Dublin county borough has been increased from £90,000 to £400,000 as from last year.

The road improvement grant for the other cities and for Dún Laoghaire has been increased by 50 per cent. Urban authorities generally are being given an increase of 10 per cent. in their grants as well as being compensated for the loss of their shares in the estate duties grant. The total increase in the amounts of grants represent an increase of £760,000 over last year's level. In addition, I have set aside £500,000 with a view to the execution of essential improvements on arterial roads, many sections of which are still sub-standard in width and alignment. In doing so, I have in mind road safety considerations and also the desirability of effecting a reduction in transport costs on these main arteries in the interests of agricultural and industrial production and marketing.

In connection with the termination of the estate duties grant, the debt to the Road Fund on foot of borrowings from the Exchequer has been completely wiped out by the Road Fund (Grants) (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1962, which provides also for the conversion into non-repayable grants of the two repayable advances which remained to be made under the Road Fund (Grants and Advances) (Temporary Provisions) Act, 1959. The net amount by which the Road Fund will benefit is equivalent to about 24 years' purchase of the estate duties grant.

Since the Road Traffic Act became law last year, my Department has been engaged on the making of regulations required by many of the provisions of the Act. At the same time, those provisions which did not require the making of extensive regulations were brought into operation. Sixty-four sections and parts of two other sections were brought into operation as from 1st October, 1961. These include section 26, which extends the number of offences involving compulsory disqualification, and Part V, which deals with more serious driving offences. Parts VIII and IX give extended powers in the regulation of traffic and parking.

Twenty-eight other sections were brought into operation on 1st May, 1962. They deal with compulsory insurance and came into operation in conjunction with new regulations to replace the old third party risks regulations. Passenger cover is made compulsory not only for public service vehicles, as hitherto, but also for all passenger cars of the private car and private bus type and vehicles of the estate car and station wagon type.

As a result of the making of new regulations on the international circulation of vehicles, it has become possible for this country to adhere to a number of Conventions on the subject. Future regulations on matters such as lighting of vehicles, will also enable us to conform more fully with international practice.

During the past year, work has proceeded on the preparation of regulations under the Act to deal with the construction, equipment and use of vehicles. The first subject taken was lighting and reflectors. A committee has been examining this subject in consultation with interesed bodies, and has practically completed its deliberations. I hope to announce very shortly my proposals in this regard. The same procedure will apply to other subjects such as dimensions and weights of vehicles, braking, etc., which will be taken up immediately the proposed regulations on lighting and reflectors have been completed. All these proposed regulations will be published in advance so that the public can comment on them.

I have recently made comprehensive regulations on traffic signs which include, amongst other provisions, signs for the built-up area speed limit. I have drawn on the experience of the local authorities in the matter of this speed limit and, at my suggestion, they drew in turn on the advice of local technical committees. Their recommendations as to the roads which should be included in the 30 m.p.h. speed limit and the special roads to which 40 m.p.h. should apply have all been received and examined by my Department. The drafting of the necessary regulations is at an advanced stage and it should be possible to bring these speed limits into operation early next year. A considerable amount of work on the provision of traffic signs is involved. I hope to announce shortly my proposals for ordinary speed limits which will apply to specified classes of vehicle. This involved checking the speeds of various classes of vehicle on selected roads.

In the matter of traffic and parking bye-laws, my consent is required, and where the bye-laws are local, the local authorities must be consulted. It is the intention that my Department will help as far as possible to ensure that the Garda and the local authorities work together as a team, and that the bye-laws prepared will be sensible and effective. On quite a number of sets of bye-laws, both general and local, a considerable amount of work has already been done by the Garda in consultation with my Department.

It is hoped that the first parking bye-laws under the Act of 1961, i.e., those relating to Dublin city and county will be in operation by January next.

I regard the provision of off-street car parks as a major contribution towards improving traffic flow, and in this connection a circular letter has been issued to local authorities drawing their attention to the provisions of Section 101 of the 1961 Act, and urging them to use the powers in the section which enables them to provide off-street car parks or to assist in their provision by the contribution of money, the execution of works or the grant or lease of land. The cost involved in the provision of car parks may be included in the expenses which may be charged to the annual Road Fund grant allocations for road improvement and for main road upkeep. Some of the schemes for carparks submitted to my Department have already been approved and there are a few still under consideration.

The introduction of parking meters or of parking discs in the Dublin city area is another aspect of the parking problem which is receiving attention. The Dublin Corporation is taking the leading part in this examination with the help of my Department and the Garda. There are many problems involved in the introduction of either of those systems and the experience of the operation of such systems abroad will have to be examined before any recommendations on the introduction of either system in Dublin can be made. To mention some of the problems, full consideration will have to be given to the selection of locations, the effect on the present parking arrangements and on traffic flow, the means of enforcement and the collection and disposition of the charges.

Regulations were made by me on 30th May last and are entitled the Road Traffic Act, 1961 (Section 103) (Offences) Regulations, 1962. These regulations provide for the operation of the system generally referred to as "fines-on-the-spot" and they apply only to certain offences, all of which are in the parking category. Under this system, the sum which a motorist will pay will be ten shillings. He will be given a notice, or a notice will be affixed to the vehicle, alleging the commission of an offence and informing him that if payment of the sum is made at a stated Garda station within 21 days, a prosecution will not follow. He will be free, however, not to pay that sum and to opt for a prosecution in court.

These regulations have not been used yet as new parking bye-laws under the Act of 1961 have yet to be made. As I have already stated, these bye-laws for the Dublin area should be made by January next and then, it is hoped, the regulations will be used in the Dublin area. They will also relate to the stopping of buses and to parking at bus stops and taxi stands. The Commissioner of the Garda recently made bye-laws, with my consent, controlling the use of busstops by buses and other vehicles.

Another example of the general co-operation between my Department, the Garda and the local authorities in the matter of traffic, particularly in the Dublin area where the problems are most intense, is in the question of traffic lights, pedestrian crossings and street markings. The Road Fund grants are available towards these, and proposals for them are examined jointly. I recently approved the provision of a substantial number of new traffic lights and pedestrian crossings in Dublin.

One of the provisions of the Road Traffic Act which will, in my opinion, lead to a substantial improvement in driving behaviour is that dealing with driving tests. The establishment of driving tests is an exceedingly complex matter and will require an extensive staffing organisation at headquarters and throughout the country. The organisation of this establishment is at present being planned and every effort will be made to have the tests in operation without avoidable delay. A special section is being set up in the Department to deal with this work.

The use of road safety propaganda is being intensified with the objects of inculcating general principles for good road behaviour and of securing public acceptace of the various measures which will be introduced from time to time for the protection of road users. Every method of propaganda will be used and in particular television. A number of short films on specific subjects are being made here and others made in Britain have been purchased. In all this I have had valuable help from voluntary bodies such as the Safety First Association and from the newspapers. Radio Éireann is also assisting by the broadcast at intervals of a number of road safety slogans, also the Department of Posts and Telegraphs which are using such slogans on stamp cancellations.

Illustrated folders on zebra crossings and other subjects have been published. Further to the publication of two editions of the "Rules of the Road", a revised version has been issued embodying alterations arising from the coming into force of the 1961 Act. I should mention that I have had the assistance during the year of an informal group representing various interests engaged in road safety propaganda and I should like to take the opportunity of thanking those voluntary members who gave freely of their time for this work, and indeed those other voluntary workers who are assisting my Department in other ways, such as in the preparation of various regulations.

Finally, on the road traffic side, the Commission set up in September, 1961 to consider means of determining the impairment of driving ability by alcohol or drugs has held many meetings to date and members of the Commission have also been examining continental practice. I hope to receive the report of the Commission in the present year.

There is an increase of £2,000 in the Estimate for grants to An Comhairle Leabharlanna. The Comhairle is empowered to assist local authorities in the improvement of their library services and the increased provision is being made to enable them to make grants for this purpose. This follows the making of regulations by me last November providing for a scheme to assist local authorities in the improvement of their library services. Grants from the voted provision will be made available to An Comhairle Leabharlanna for the recoupment of up to 50 per cent. of the annual loan charges incurred by library authorities on the provision, improvement and furnishing of library buildings, major acquisitions of books and the provision of mobile libraries. I trust that the scheme will encourage local authorities to undertake a thorough reorganisation of their library services.

Another subhead in the Vote for my Department provides £5,000 for contributions towards loan charges to county councils in respect of seeds and fertilisers supply schemes. This is to enable county councils to avail themselves of existing legislation to adopt special schemes to help farmers who had suffered crop losses in the heavy storms of autumn 1961. Short-term loans at an interest rate of 2 per cent. may be made to farmers who suffered in these storms to enable them to purchase seeds and fertilisers. The difference between the interest on the loans and that paid by the councils on money borrowed for the schemes will be made good by grants from this provision in the Vote.

The state of the rate collection at the end of the last financial year was satisfactory in most counties, the overall collection having reached 97.3 per cent. of the warrants. This year there have been rate increases in every county except one, the average county rate being 43/3d. as against 40/11d. last year. The latest round of wage and salary increases has been largely responsible for the increase in the rates.

The total revenue expenditure of local authorities in the past year was £60.8 million while the corresponding estimate for this year is £65.1 million. Receipts from rates in 1961-62 met 38.2 per cent. of the total expenditure while the State grants accounted for 42.6 per cent., the remainder of the expenditure being defrayed from miscellaneous receipts. In the current year receipts from rates will meet 34.1 per cent. of the expenditure while contributions from State sources will account for 46.5 per cent. There is therefore evident this year a much more pronounced trend in the direction of increasing State aid for expenditure on local services. This is due mainly to the greatly increased agricultural grant which is being made available this year. I may say that the agricultural grant for the current year is estimated at £8½ million as against £5.8 million last year and that it will meet 55 per cent. of the gross rates on agricultural land as against 41 per cent. last year.

Capital expenditure of local authorities in 1961-62 amounted to £10.1 million, an increase of £1 million on the previous year's expenditure. The bulk of local capital requirements continued to be obtained from the Local Loans Fund. The total net indebtedness of local authorities as at 31st March last is estimated at £154.2 million.

I move:

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

In doing so, I take the end of the Minister's speech at the outset and will deal with the financial situation as he presented it to the House. The Minister points out that expenditure from rates has been increasing and that in this year there had to be an increased subsidy from the State to enable ratepayers to bear their burden and in order that this burden might be lightened somewhat, particularly where the farming community are concerned. Everybody is aware that in the year just passed, there was great unrest throughout the country because of the rates burden and it was brought very forcibly to the notice of the Minister and his Department that the agricultural community did not feel themselves able to bear any further impositions on rates for local services.

In that connection, we have had cause to examine the system under which rates are based on a system of valuations which has been in operation in this country for over 100 years. That is something that requires to be carefully examined. There is involved here the basic principle that the individual should be asked to contribute only in accordance with his ability to pay. That hinges on a number of factors. There is the question of the number of dependants any individual has to support and there is equally the question of farmers' holdings, particularly the small farmers about whom we hear a lot at the present time.

The problem of the small farmers has been recognised through the action of the Taoiseach in setting up a committee to examine the position. They reported there was great need for a change of outlook, in so far as small farmers are concerned. The position as envisaged by the Minister's statement generally leads one to believe that the outlook is one of increased expenditure. This increased expenditure will fall to be met under several headings. The amount the State, which is the ordinary taxpayer, will contribute to that may be an increased percentage of what is to be spent by the local authorities, but the problem at the present time is whether we have not reached the stage where we ought to set ourselves priorities in regard to the programme which we envisage can be undertaken by the local authorities who, in the main, are agents for the central authority. In the carrying out of these schemes, the central authority, the Oireachtas and legislation passed here, impose these burdens on local authorities. The type of grants made available to the local authorities, mainly of the percentage type, are of the kind which can be used to induce or compel the local authority to conform to the will of the central authority.

The Minister mentions the indebtedness of local authorities as being estimated at £154,000,000 at present. That is something which ought to make us think because if we relate that to the paying capacity of the community, then we find ourselves in the position that no less a sum than approximately £7,000,000 has to be found annually to meet the capital repayment of the sums borrowed by local authorities. A further £3,500,000 has to be found to meet the charge for interest on such advances. This sum of £10,500,000 is, I suggest, a very formidable sum for the local authorities.

There is need for a review in regard to the type of grants payable to the local authorities. The Minister in the past year has done something in that respect. He has dealt with one of them but I suggest that the Minister could equally and with profit deal with some more of these grants and rationalise them. In that manner, we could get not only better administration but some savings both at central authority and local authority level.

In the main, the types of grant payable are grants by which the central authority and the Legislature are enabled to get the local authority to implement decisions taken without the local authority really having any say as to whether they desire it or not or whether they think it suitable or not.

At the beginning of his speech, the Minister refers to housing which is one of the large component parts of the service provided under the auspices of his Department. I notice reference to the fact that private housing now exceeds the volume of local authority housing. That, indeed, is very admirable and very desirable. The more encouragement we give to that element of the enterprise of people, the better. It is something we ought to commend by the promptness and despatch with which we make available the facilities provided by legislation to applicants for housing grants. My information is that there is delay in the payment of housing grants, both new house grants and reconstruction grants. That is not confined to any one area.

The decline in house building was referred to by the Minister in his speech, as well as the necessity for a housing programme. I am sorry that the survey which it was intended should be completed has not so far been successful. I feel sure we need some radical thinking in regard to our housing programme. Not alone is there in local authority areas a programme of housing needs which fall to be met but there is also a replacement programme which will fall to be met over the years.

With regard to the replacement programme, a rough and ready calculation leads me to believe that one per cent. of the housing in any particular area would represent the replacement needs, if the life of a house is taken as 100 years. That can be applied to any local authority area to arrive at the future housing needs in an area. Not all of that will fall to be met by the local authority effort. Indeed, it may even be less than half of the amount.

Let me take as an example the case of my own constituency. A survey in Limerick in 1946 revealed that there were something like 22,000 houses. Taking one per cent. of that, it leaves 220 yearly requiring to be replaced and taking even less than half as being those who need to be rehoused by the local authority, that, in itself, is a respectable housing programme for any local authority to envisage. But if we add to that approximately 300 further houses required in the area, that, without the replacement figure, would be a long programme for the local authority to deal with.

The Minister has explained some of the delays by mentioning the causes— lack of inspectors and difficulties in regard to cement. These are some of the problems which slow down the housing programme. The Minister says he has an adequate staff of housing inspectors now. I do not know if this problem is related to a matter mentioned earlier on another Vote, whether some uniformity is not really required in regard to the inspection staff available to the Department of Local Government just as it is required, as mentioned here, in the Office of Public Works. Uniformity should keep the inspectorate staff available to the Department to enable them to carry out inspections without losing the staff they have at any particular time.

The fact remains that, for one reason or another, there is this slow-down in the housing programme, so far as local authorities are concerned. That is illustrated by the answer the Minister gave me on 29th May this year in which he set out the number of houses built by local authorities in different years and, not alone that, but the number built by private persons with the aid of grants under the Housing Acts. These figures have shown a steady decline from a figure of 5,267 in 1954-55 or 3,467 in 1957-58 to 1,238 in 1961-62. If I were convinced that decline in housing was due to the fact that all who need houses had been rehoused, this would be a pleasant picture to contemplate but we all know that a great many still need rehousing and that a large number are people who fall to be housed by the local authorities. Therefore, we cannot afford to be complacent about this situation.

The number of houses built by private persons with the aid of grants has also shown a steady decline from 5,000 in any of the three years 1954 to 1957, or from 3,629 in 1957-58 until last year when there was an improvement from 3,952 in 1960-61 to 4,049 in 1961-62. The upsurge the Minister has referred to in the expenditure on grants for private housing is welcome, if it has the effect of stepping up the tempo of housing. I suggest that one way to ensure that will happen is to see that grants due to be paid are paid without undue delay and that there is no undue delay in regard to inspection.

I should like the Minister to say what trends if any, can now be noted from the survey carried out in the Department according to his reply to a question of mine on 8th March as to what seems to be the size of the problem still facing both local authorities and the central authority. The Minister referred to it but I am sure his figures are now much more up-to-date than on 8th March and that he could give us a clearer picture of housing needs now.

In addition to housing, there is the question of procedure in regard to the acquisition of sites by local authorities. Where an application is made to the Department for a compulsory purchase order, sometimes sites are included which are given voluntarily. Sites given voluntarily—I say this subject to correction—should be excluded from a compulsory purchase order. The increases in the remuneration of both workers and tradesmen, as the Minister realises, has increased the costs of house production over the years. The cost has increased even since last year and I think the time has come when there should be a further look at the need for increases in the grant level to meet increased costs.

There are other features of housing of which at present we are aware. When houses are being built, the desire to get the house completed, often restricts the scope of the house and I wonder whether such devices as using the space over the rafters, which could be made available by using heavier rafters to allow for the construction of dormer rooms, would be permitted to qualify houses for grants. It is something that merits the Minister's attention. If somebody could devise a house which we could call expandable, it might frequently meet the needs of Irish family life. The suggestion I heard of providing that gully traps and such things be kept at a reasonable distance from the house to allow for future development is something that might merit the future attention of architects and engineers. In cases where local authorities have to submit their housing requirements to the central authority, I suggest that a very useful type of process, perhaps, might be man-to-man talks between the representative of the local authority— the manager—and his opposite number in the Minister's Department.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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