Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Dec 1962

Vol. 198 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme, 1962: Motion of Confirmation.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Bartley)

I move:

That the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Scheme 1962 prepared by the Minister for Defence with the consent of the Minister for Finance under Sections 2, 3 and 5 of the Defence Forces (Pensions) Act, 1932, and Section 4 of the Defence Forces (Pensions) (Amendment) Act, 1938 and laid before the House on the 10th day of March, 1962, be confirmed.

This scheme is made pursuant to the Defence Forces (Pensions) Acts, 1932 to 1957. Under the terms of Section 4 of the Act of 1932, it will not come into force unless and until it has been laid before each House of the Oireachtas and has been confirmed by a resolution of each such House.

Unlike the superannuation code, there is no provision in the Defence Forces (Pensions) Scheme for automatic increases in retirement benefits proportionate to increases in service pay. When an increase in service pay is granted, therefore, it is necessary to amend the Defence Forces (Pensions) Scheme to provide for proportionate increases in the retired pay, pensions and gratuities of retired or discharged members of the Defence Forces who, before retirement or discharge, had enjoyed the benefit of the pay increase.

The pay increase which led to the making of this amending scheme came into operation with effect from the 1st February, 1961.

The scheme contains eight articles. Articles 1 to 4 set out the title, the conditions for its coming into operation, the application of the Interpretation Act, 1937, and the definition of certain terms used in the scheme.

Increases in retired pay of officers and in gratuities for married officers who retired on or after the 2nd February, 1961, are provided for in Articles 5 and 6. The increases are in proportion to the increases in the pay of officers granted with effect from the 1st February, 1961. I should explain that the percentages shown are the percentages to be added to the retired pay or gratuity as calculated under the original scheme of 1937. It will be seen how the original rates have increased over the years. The percentages now shown exceed the percentages in the previous scheme to the extent necessary to give the appropriate increase in relation to the increase of pay.

Provision is made in Articles 7 and 8 for increased pensions, married pensions and gratuities for non-commissioned officers and men discharged on or after 1st February, 1961. The increases are likewise in proportion to the pay increases granted with effect from 1st February, 1961.

I should like to draw particular attention to the fact that the increases provided for in this scheme are consequent only on the Army pay increase of 1st February, 1961. A further increase in pay was granted with effect from the 1st November, 1961, and the necessary amending scheme to provide increased retirement benefits appropriate to the November, 1961, pay increase is also awaiting the consideration of the House.

General MacEoin

This is a motion to give effect to a promise made, and as such, I think we must approve of it. I am not sure whether this is not the Order that covers the cases referred to by Deputy Cosgrave. I think it is the Order that leaves these officers without the increased pensions they would have received had they been allowed to serve for a further two years. I do not hold any brief in particular for them but I would mention that they are Old IRA officers who rendered very great service to this country. I am glad to say that that service is recognised by all now: I do not intend to make any point about it.

When the Minister says, as his predecessor said, that the junior officers were taking offence at the retention of these officers for two extra years, I find it very hard to believe. I do not believe there is a serving Army officer who is jealous of those who made the position possible for him. Whatever the reasons for the Minister's predecessor's withdrawal of the privilege which a previous Minister and Government granted them, I think it was not done in good taste. The withdrawal of this privilege of extended service means that these men lost the increased pay and gratuity they would have received, had they served the two years, and they lose the pension as well. As Deputy Cosgrave pointed out, the sum involved runs to £120 or £130 a year.

Mr. Tully

They got the pay.

General MacEoin

No; they did not get the new increase.

Mr. Tully

Yes.

General MacEoin

I have a brief which says they did not get the increase they should have got. I stand to be corrected on that, but one thing is certain: they did not get the pension to which they would be entitled. I realise that if this Order were to be amended, it would hold up and delay payment of the pensions to those who qualified. However, I do suggest to the Minister that he should take steps to rectify the position. It cannot happen again and it will mean that justice will be done and, what is very important, a sense of grievance will be removed.

Mr. Tully

I agree that nothing can be done about it at present but I am hoping to see the Minister bringing in a proposal to give a decent pension, to alter entirely the pension structure. As it stands, the amount of pension received by people who retire from the Army does not encourage young people to come into the Army. The fact that people leave the Army at a relatively early age does not remedy the position at all because these people, having spent 20 years or more in the Army, find that they do not fit easily into civilian life and that there is no readymade job for them. The result is that when they come out, they depend for a considerable time on the labour exchange and on what they get by way of pension. The pension is entirely inadequate and the Minister ought to consider that before he brings in another proposal of this kind.

Mr. Bartley

On one of the motions already introduced, I have replied to the points made by Deputy MacEoin.

Question put and agreed to.