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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Jan 1963

Vol. 199 No. 1

Private Members' Business. - Amendment of Army Pensions Acts: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That in the opinion of Dáil Éireann the Government should introduce legislation (1) to amend the Army Pensions Acts of 1924 and 1934 to 1949, and see that justice is done to legitimate claimants for Military Service Certificates, and (2) to amend the Army Pensions Acts of 1923 to date so as to (a) extend the Disability Pensions Acts to those who suffered from disease attributable to service, (b) include the widows and dependent children of persons in receipt of disability pensions due to gunshot wounds or disease contracted on service, or attributable to service, and (c) amend the regulation governing the means test for special allowance."—(Deputy MacEoin.)

Before the Christmas recess, I tried to show that there were very grave shortcomings in the various Military Service Pensions Acts and I pointed out that early in 1919, the then Minister for Defence accepted the whole Volunteer Force of the country, together with its allied organisations such as Cumann na mBan and Fianna Éireann, as the standing army and they were all on an active service footing. I cited the relevant reference to that in the Dáil Official Report and I dealt with the question of disability pensions up to a point.

One of the points I wanted to stress was that in the case of disability, whether from wound or disease, contracted on service, no matter when the person applied, his case should be examined and it is unreasonable and unjust to say that because a man did not apply before a certain date, he cannot be considered. I submit that the greatest punishment that applicant can suffer or should suffer is that his pension should be paid only from the date of application. Dear knows, that would be serious enough. In view of our history, in view of the fact that there are several people in this country who were at one time behind us, or behind the present Government Party who were not in the House, because they did not accept the constitutional position established here and who did not apply but who are suffering disability, I think it is a very grave reflection on us that we should tell them: "Because you did not apply in time, your case cannot now be considered because the Minister has no statutory authority to make such a provision." I do not think the Dáil ever visualised that situation and I submit it should be rectified.

The second point I tried to establish —I am summarising—was that where the widow of an officer, NCO or man finds herself without any means of sustenance—or whether she has or not—once her husband dies, the disability pension dies with him unless it is established beyond yea or nay that his death was due to his disability. I am satisfied that there was never any intention on the part of the Oireachtas to create that situation; the intention was that the widow would receive the pension payable under the circumstances —the same circumstances as those under which a person died with a full certificate of death due to disability whether contracted from wounds or disease.

I assert that where the wound pension was granted, there should be no question whatever about it. The pension should carry on. I am struck by a number of cases, particularly by a case, and this hurts me very much, of an officer who had at least 14 bullet wounds in him. He became mental and was in hospital. After a long time, he was granted the disability pension and his wife's pension was also allotted. He suffered from what I am perfectly satisfied was a blood clot, became unconscious and was moved from the mental hospital to a surgical hospital where they did not know anything of his history. The death certificate says he died from diabetes. That man never regained consciousness from the time he left the mental hospital until he died in the county hospital. It is clear, in my opinion, that his death was due to his disability but the certificate says a different thing and the Minister therefore says that in these circumstances the widow is not entitled to a continuation of the pension.

That is only one of several such cases. The Minister knows of other cases in Galway and elsewhere where the same circumstances apply. I feel that in all these cases the pension should carry on to the widow. There is another case in Athlone but I do not think it is much use citing all those cases, since the Minister knows them as well as I do. The only case the Minister can make is that there is no statutory power vested in him to continue the pensions. He does, however, agree it is very hard to see a man who lived to 60 or 70 years dying from a disability so incurred, but I think he is forgetting that for a great number of years, that man was not able to make provision for his widow or anybody else because he was suffering from disability all that time.

The next portion of my motion is in regard to special allowances and the granting of medals. I submit that in every case where a person applies under the Military Service Pensions Acts, and where evidence was given of both his membership and his service, there should be no question whatever about granting a medal because the officers were available to give evidence and if such a man had not been a member of the Volunteers, the fact would have been clearly established before the Military Pensions Board. Perhaps the sources which suggested he was never a member were not really reliable. Anyhow, where they have said he was a member and did not contradict him, then automatically— and I have argued this here before— the medal should be issued.

I had a case today from the Mid-lands—not in my own area—in which an applicant for a medal says he applied for a military service pension, that he was on the Executive side, that his officers joined the Defence Forces, the National Army, and they refused to certify him because of prejudice, that they were Fine Gael, and so on, and he makes the case that political action denied him what he was entitled to. That apparently is accepted. There is another case in which a man applied for a military service certificate and was refused. He applied again under the 1949 Act and his case was heard in 1954 or 1955. He was rejected again but the medal was issued to him the following week. He was told when he applied for a special allowance that his medal had not been duly awarded. It is very difficult to know how that comes about but it has a disturbing effect on people generally. When I say "people," I mean all of my comrades of former days, whether they were for me or against me. I am forgetting all that now and I am trying to get fair play and justice for all of them.

On the question of the means test for a special allowance, I hold that at least it should be the equivalent of that for the old age pension. That is not asking too much. Let us get this fact clear. Under the Old Age Pensions Act, a pension officer reports that the applicant's means is above such a figure and notwithstanding that the pension committee grants the pension. The pension officer appeals and an appeals officer in the Department of Social Welfare examines the case anew. I would say without fear of contradiction that in 50 per cent. of the cases, if not more, the deciding officer overrides the decision of the pension officer.

For the special allowance, however, once the pension officer reports that a person's means are £X, then that becomes the same as the law of the Medes and Persians and there is no power in the Department of Defence to override it. They must take it that that is the assessment made by the pension officer and they have no power unless there is an appeal and evidence put in which is again referred to the pension officer or some other inspector for further inquiry into that person's means. Therefore, the minimum that I am asking is that where an assessment of means takes place, it should not be on a worse basis than that in respect of the applicant for an old age pension. Surely to goodness that is not going too far? I think it is reasonable and that everybody will admit it is a fair calculation.

One of the reasons I am forcing this is that I know of cases similar to the one in which a person fell out with the pension officer and ordered him about the place. In that case, the officer estimated the means as £20 from four acres of the worst land in Ireland. What I would feel like doing is to ask the pension officer to spend 12 months on that land himself and if he could get £20 out of it in any way, I would give him a medal. I admit that the applicant was wrong in the first instance in his attitude to the pension officer, and I hold no brief for him, but at the same time the calculation goes beyond all reason. In another case, a person is calculated as having a room set in Athlone and, therefore, he has £1 per week out of that, as if there were no other costs in the house to be taken into account, rent, rates and so on. These tests would not apply for the old age pension.

I am arguing that the whole matter should be re-examined and that the Minister should have statutory power to delegate authority to an official to operate the special allowances on the same basis as the non-contributory old age pensions code, or otherwise that for the purpose of the special allowance, the adjudicating officer for old age pensions be the adjudicator on the main question of means for the special allowance. Perhaps that would be only an administrative matter but I feel it would be taking it away to another Department.

I feel that even in the short time at my disposal, I should go back again to the Military Service Pensions Act. Under the Military Service Pensions Act from 1922 to 1949, there was no definition whatever of active service. The definition of active service was left to the arbitrary decision of the board for the time being. Under the 1924 Pensions Act, there were grave complaints about the definition of active service but there was the additional condition that you had to have service in the Defence Forces. Under the 1934 Act, there was no definition of active service and the Oireachtas was right not to define it because they were accepting the point of view that the Volunteers and associated forces were the standing army of the country in its difficult times and all that had to be established was that they had full-time membership and gave considerable time to the work they had done.

Active service was laid down then by the boards and one chairman and one board would do one thing and another chairman and another board would do something else. The net result was that people got certificates under one board which they would not have got under another board. I feel, and I am not advocating that active service should be a condition, that if we must have it a condition, if the Government assert that view and reject mine, that there should be active service, it should be operated on the definition that everybody would know what he has to establish. For that purpose, I include not only the Volunteers who were actually on the ground, but railway workers, drivers, guards, porters and so on, who carried despatches and did all types of work for the Army at the time.

I suggest that the definition of active service should be something like this first, engaging in any armed attacks; secondly, cutting, mining, or obstructing roads or railways; thirdly, cutting telegraph lines, or other means of communication; seizure of mails; carrying of despatches; guarding parties of the forces; carrying out armed patrols; having care or custody of the transport of arms and ammunition. Without fear of contradiction, I assert that the man who stored the material that I captured at Ballymahon, or anywhere else in attacks on barracks, and who kept it safely in his own home, under his own control, went through as tough a time, if not a tougher time, than the fellows out in the field; he knew what the consequences would be if a raid took place on his house. But he is just brushed aside. What did he do? And what he did is considered of no merit.

The same applies to the conveyance of the material from Ballinalee to Ballymahon, dumping it outside Ballymahon, handing it over to a farmer there the day before. Surely that was as much active service as was the service of those who took part in the attack on the barracks. There is no question of doubt about it. But, again, it is "What did he do? He only carried the stuff."

Forcibly seizing arms, munitions, materials, and so forth covers raiding for the raw material—the gunpowder, explosives, caps, and whatnot; to my own knowledge, men engaged in these activities travelled long distances.

Transporting armed parties of the forces; having the custody of prisoners, or suspected persons; attending in their training camps; attending council meetings, and battalion, or higher, formations; catering; providing accommodation and laundry and other essential services for members of the forces. That latter relates more, of course, to Cumann na mBan in a certain sense. The truth is that there are men who did all these things. A good cook was a very useful adjunct indeed. Rendering first aid to members of the forces during operations and nursing sick or wounded members; if all these things were laid down applicants would know what they had to establish. At the moment they did not know. There is only one thing a former applicant did know, and he hoped to God that he knew someone who would help.

It is that that has begotten all the controversy. Indeed it looks now as if it would have been better never to have passed the Pensions Acts at all. There would not be so much jealousy and hard feeling amongst former comrades. It was the granting of pensions to certain people and the refusal of pensions to certain others that generated much of the later hostility between former members of that gallant body that served the country so well. These men handed over government in 1918 to the Government then established, before freedom was fully secured and, except for a few small instances they have obeyed from that day to this the elected Government of the country. We can be proud of that record when we see what is happening in other countries where revolutionary effort is taking place. We are aware of all the turmoil and upset. Were it not for the grace of God, perhaps that would have been our position too.

I wish I were able to make a much better case because a much better case can be made. Unfortunately, my physical condition at the moment does not allow me to make the case I should like to make. The facts are as I have stated and I appeal to all members of this House to accept this motion and to establish, even at this late hour, one or more boards to examine into and determine all the applicants over again. There are not many left. In particular, I ask this House to ensure that where disability has been established the pension carries on to the widow. I think that is a very small plea. With regard to the assessment of means, the adjudicating officer should have the same power as the appeals officer has in the case of the old age pension. I know there are many here who believe the Act should be amended. I appeal to both sides of the House to support this motion.

I formally second the motion, reserving my right to speak later.

I would go further than Deputy MacEoin. I support him as far as he goes.

I will support the Deputy the farther he goes.

What is embraced in the motion here does not altogether satisfy me, or others, for that matter. Deputy MacEoin asked that justice be done to legitimate claimants for pensions. He referred to certain people who should have been considered for pensions. He specified certain classes. I am not so much concerned with extending the scope of the Pensions Acts in order to grant more pensions. I would be satisfied with a gratuity. Deputy MacEoin's suggestion would involve the examination of witnesses, and all that sort of thing. I am not so sure that there would not be a good deal of fixing done by pals to prove that somebody kept a gun or did not keep a gun. I believe it would be impossible at this stage to prove the truth of a great many claims.

My solution to the problem is that all who can prove that they served and that they were entitled to a service medal should receive a gratuity, provided they can prove they were members of the forces for the three months before the Truce. They should be given a gratuity with additions for each year of service they can prove. That would be an easier way out. It is much easier to prove that a man was a member of the forces than to prove that he did this or that because most of the people who could prove it are probably dead and in any case there would be, as I said, too much "fixing". But if we are agreed that all those who could satisfy the Pension Board that they were members for three months before the Truce should receive a gratuity on that account and additions for each year of service there would be no difficulty.

This raises the whole question of medals. It has been said that some people have medals and have no right to them. That is so because it was not too difficult to get a medal and people were prepared to vouch for something that was not true or that they had just guessed. That raises the issue again because at some stage those medal-holders, when they apply for a special allowance, will have to submit to further examination. That will be difficult. Some men may not apply for the next ten years. Some of the Fianna who are quite young may not apply for another ten or fifteen years. Who will be alive then to prove or disprove their claim? I argued this before: every medal holder should have a certificate of service. Medals are handed out and that is all. Anyone could wear a medal and if challenged, could say he had just as much right to it as Deputy MacEoin. Every medal holder should get a certificate to say that he had a right to that medal.

In many cases people with medals who apply for special allowances are turned down. Why let this go on? Why will it be better to prove it in years to come? Why not have it proved or disproved now? Why not examine every case now and satisfy yourself as to who is and who is not entitled to allowances? Why wait ten or 15 years to do it? Those who are entitled to medals should be given a certificate so that at any stage in the future that certificate is there as evidence that they are entitled to a special allowance without having to undergo any further examination. Every person who has a medal and is entitled to it should receive a gratuity.

It is well known that because of the Civil War justice was not done to the Old IRA. The public at large were soured because of what happened in that Civil War. They want to wash their hands of us. If there had been no Civil War we should have had a grateful country anxious to be generous and in the case of those who could prove membership the country would have been generous. That Civil War spoiled everything. Whatever chance those who supported the Treaty had, whatever justice they had a chance of getting, injustice was done to the other side. If they got nothing else those who supported the Treaty got jobs in the Army or Civil Service because their people controlled the State at its foundation——

Some of them.

A good proportion. Where they did not get pensions they got other opportunities while only a small proportion of those on the other side, because they were the losers, got the same opportunities. The majority of those on the other side got nothing in proportion to what those who supported the Treaty got. I am not raising the question of who got this or that; I am summing up the situation as it was because I was in it and I know what I am talking about. I asked a prominent member of the Fianna Fáil Government about it and he said: "Sure, most of the boys got jobs; they did all right afterwards." He meant that a small proportion got jobs. Those who became politicians or Ministers were probably quite satisfied. They got something out of it. They had the glory of being in public life and being Ministers but a large percentage of the rank and file got nothing.

Those who can prove on re-examination that they are entitled to medals should get a gratuity. There are no laurels for the Civil War. It was most unfortunate and like Deputy MacEoin, I want to forget it but at the same time I want justice for those who suffered in it. A great many stood against the Treaty. Fifteen thousand were known to have been in jail and that is indisputable but they got nothing even though they can prove they were genuine members of the forces in the Tan War and the Civil War and had spent long terms in jail. The people responsible for that were the leaders who led them into the War and should have done them justice afterwards. Those who supported the Treaty at least got a fair crack of the whip from the Government——

Some of them.

A very large proportion as compared with the other side. The other side got nothing and I think the time has come when they should have got some measure of justice. It does not matter that it is 40 years later. Memories are short and even history is short if it comes to that. I ask for a re-examination of all those with medals. It is an insult to jibe and say some of these people are "chancers". That is as much as to say the genuine men are "chancers". How can the genuine man prove now whether he is entitled to his medal or not? I want justice for them. Whether they were right or wrong they believed they were right. If anybody is responsible it is the leaders. The leaders did all right. At least they were in public life and got something out of it. I feel a little bitter about this because I was one of those on the other side and I know what I am talking about. I know how they feel today. I have never left their councils. Those who served but were supposed not to have been on active service have a medal and those who served and were supposed to be on active service had a medal with bar. Those without the bar feel they are insulted because whenever there is a parade they are distinguished. People looking on and seeing them are liable to say: "Those fellows did nothing. They have no bars." That is what the world is being told by giving the bar. There should be no bar.

I do not think Deputy MacEoin went far enough with regard to disability. I have some experience of what is and what is not attributable to service as regards disease. The Pensions Board in many cases said in effect: "Oh, that was not attributable to service. It was aggravated by service but not attributable to service." Deputy MacEoin's motion makes no reference to those whose cases have been aggravated by service. That means they would rule them out.

At this stage, it would be very difficult to make a case for a pension in respect of injury attributable to service. If it were easy to make that case, I imagine it would have been made long ago. A lot of cases could be made in relation to injuries aggravated by service. Many people who had an injury aggravated by service actually claimed it was attributable to service. Do not forget that. However, the Board have the last word. They can say what they like. They can say that it was not attributable to service but that it was aggravated by service.

Therefore, unless Deputy MacEoin inserts the words "aggravated by service" in his motion he is playing into the hands of the Pensions Board. They can agree in one case out of 100 but they will not accept the other 99 cases. It is a weakness in this motion that "aggravated by" or "attributable to" can be disputed. I do not want to argue that today; I have reasons for not wanting to argue it.

If your two arms were shot off during the Tan War they would accept that because they can see you have no arms. However, if your arms disappeared a few months after the Tan War they would say it was only aggravated by service. You have to have the injury at the right time. That is the way they argue some of the pensions cases. They say that the injury was aggravated by but not attributable to service. The Motion is weak there. The Deputy must bring in the words "aggravated by service" because they would be the very people making the claim. There would be few other cases. I do not want to say any more except to come back again to the question of special allowances.

The sum required each year for special allowances is lessening and it will continue to lessen. I suppose that, ten years from now, there will be few, if any, of us left. The State can afford to be a bit generous. Having been so damned mean in the past, the State can at least afford to be a little generous in the future. I agree that something should be done about the means test. I will go along with Deputy MacEoin all the way but my point is that the motion should go further because as it is worded, it lets the Minister out. It means—even if he accepts it—that another couple of hundred might get a miserable pension because they can prove their point but what about the thousands who have got so little? If the Deputy retains the word "attributable to service" it will apply maybe only to the very odd person.

Let us be all-embracing on this. Let us do a good deed for once. It is now 40 years after the event. In ten years' time, none of us will be left. Remember, the present Government did not do justice in this connection. They took advantage of the fact that time lapsed between the Civil War and the time they came into power. I am asking them to treat fairly the men who gave service and whom, whether they like it or not, they walked into in the Civil War. Let them treat them generously now, before all this business comes to a climax—and that will not be too long.

As one of those who was lucky enough to be in the cradle during the Civil War period, no one can accuse me of trying to stir up any bitter feelings. Most certainly, I do not want to become involved in any dispute as to the rights and wrongs of the Civil War.

It does not arise.

The people engaged in the fight for freedom here would not thank me or anyone else if we tried to start up a feeling of bitterness in this country again. I feel, with the two previous speakers, that this country has not given the recognition they deserve to the people who made Irish freedom possible, even talking about pensions. I do not think it is realised that five-sixths of the pensions being paid amount to less than £25 per year per person and some go as low as £10 a year. That bears out what Deputy Sherwin was saying a few minutes ago when he rightly described the treatment by the various Governments in this country of these people in question as "damned mean". I think that was the understatement of the year to consider that the treatment was "damned mean". There is a much stronger expression which could be used but it would not be Parliamentary.

Even those who consider themselves lucky enough to get a pension, with the small pensions they are getting, are better off than a big number of people who applied for pensions and who did not even have the opportunity of appearing before a Board. Again, this is something which does not appear to be generally known. However, it is true that very many people, many of the old soldiers, have not had an opportunity——

Automatically disqualified.

They have been automatically disqualified, as Deputy MacEoin says. There seems to be some mystery about the way some people were called before the Boards. A lot of them received replies something like this: "You are a person to whom the Act does not apply". Actually, the people who got such a reply were condemned behind closed doors. They were not given an opportunity of making their own case. Those people had applied and had produced what they considered to be the necessary evidence to prove that they were involved in the fight for freedom and were, therefore, entitled to be considered.

I do not want to raise old bitternesses. However, it is a fact that some of those people even took a case to court and when the decision was given in their favour this House passed a measure which debarred them from having their case further considered. I do not think that was the way in which Old IRA men should be treated.

In a debate in this House before the Christmas Recess, I mentioned a matter which I discussed with the Minister. I had some correspondence with him about it. It concerned an application for medals by two ladies who served in Cumann na mBan. I pointed out that an officer of the Meath company was hauled out of the Pensions Branch when he was attempting to make representations. In a letter to me, the Minister pointed out that the facts I gave him were not correct. I wish to reiterate here that the facts I gave him were correct, that the information he gave me in his letter was not correct, that he was misinformed and that somebody in his Department —and I regret very much having to make this statement in the House—not alone seemed to dislike that officer who was only doing his duty but went further and, apparently, because of the fact that the representations were made by that officer, debarred the two ladies from getting the medal and said they had not got the correct evidence.

The matter was raised again and on the second occasion the Department came across with a chestnut. They said the company to which these people claimed to belong did not exist, that there was no evidence that it existed during the period for which it was necessary to prove its existence, that there was no roll and for that reason it would not be possible to give medals. The extraordinary thing was that the same Department issued to other officers of that company of Cumann na mBan from that roll medals and certificates on a previous occasion. If it was in existence then it must be in existence still and that is why I say somebody is deliberately venting his spleen against members of the company for the simple reason that he dislikes the person who made representations.

I would again ask the Minister to go into this matter very fully. It is a shocking state of affairs that something like that should be allowed to occur. I understand the matter has been taken up with the Minister by the company concerned. I know the Minister has no hand, act or part in this and I want to make it clear that I am not casting any reflections whatever on the Minister for whom I have a very high regard. However, I would ask him to have this matter fully investigated because this sort of thing is adding insult to injury. There is very high feeling among the people who are associated with those ladies because of the treatment they have received.

The question of the special allowance and the means test has been raised. I agree entirely with Deputy MacEoin. I do not see any reason why there should not be some appeal against the decision of the investigating officer who is in the same position as the investigating officer in the Department of Social Welfare. In very many cases a recommendation has been made by the old age pension committee in favour of the applicant and the investigating officer for the Department of Social Welfare will appeal against it and go before a deciding officer who eventually, in very many cases, gives the decision in favour of the applicant. I do not see why the same thing should not apply here.

The Minister might pass the word along to his investigating officers that they are not expected to know everything about the person who makes the application. It is not necessary—and it used to be a music hall joke some years ago but it has gone far beyond a joke now — to find out if there are hens around the place and if there are any eggs. Nor is it their responsibility to go out to the garden to find out if the old person who has made the application has been able to plant a few potatoes or a few heads of cabbage and try to put a value on them. I do not believe that is their job and it would be just as well if they did not go too finely into these matters. After all, if people did not require the assistance they would not be applying for a special allowance.

There are two others matters to which I should like to refer briefly. One is the case of a person who because of the lapse of time is now debarred from making application; the application form should have been sent in within a certain period. Everybody here is aware of the type of people who do not want something for nothing. As long as they are able to carry on and as long as they feel they can exist without State aid of any kind they do not make application to the State. It is only when they suffer ill health or reach old age and find they cannot carry on without a little assistance that they apply. It is just too bad when those people apply and discover they are debarred because they did not apply many years ago. There is still the odd person or, if I may use the expression diehard, who up to very recently was not prepared to recognise the fact that time was moving on and that there was not a fight for freedom going on still in this country. Some of those people because they were holding out on those grounds did not apply for a pension of any kind. It is too bad that, when they apply now, they are debarred because of the lapse of time.

There is the other question of certification. All of us realise that when so many of the old IRA men are dying off, the more of them that pass on the fewer people there are to certify for applicants who remain. As a result, when people apply for a special allowance or medal, they may have grave difficulty in finding some of their old officers to certify for them. The stage has been reached where the Department and the Minister will have to look at the situation to see if there is not a case for relaxation in the certification of applicants. It will be extremely difficult to get enough people to satisfy the Department inside the next couple of years. There is, of course, the question of people who apply and who have been certified by perfectly responsible officers of a company. Occasionally, for one reason or another, somebody else is asked and either cannot remember them—small blame to them if they cannot remember after a period of 40 years —or they say they were not members of that company. When that happens the Department's attitude has been: when in doubt turn down. I do not think that is right. It would be much better for the Department to accept the word of a couple of people rather than say that the doubtful ones must be against the person who has fought and that, therefore, the person must not be a member of a particular company.

I wish again to ask the Minister to reinvestigate the case of the two ladies from Athboy. There is very high feeling against the Department among the officers and members of the company who operated in that area because they feel that what the Department is doing is saying they are not truthful people, that they are not people of integrity, that, in fact, they are telling lies. It is unfair that people who have been recognised as being in the fight for freedom, as being responsible officers during that period, having taken a manly part in that fight, should for some reason I cannot explain be looked upon as people whose word cannot be believed.

I have no doubt that Deputy MacEoin is genuinely sympathetic to the Old IRA and believes they should be treated in a proper manner. If anybody told me in 1922 that I would be standing here tonight discussing a Pensions Bill after 40 years, I would doubt the man's sanity.

Let us examine this motion. It calls for the introduction of legislation to do certain things but I do not think any legislation is needed to do all that it calls for. Under the existing Acts, I think the Minister has full power to deal with any legitimate claimants and to deal with those who suffered from disease attributable to service. I may be wrong in that.

Deputy MacEoin did not deal with widows and orphans. There is nothing in this motion about active service, yet he devoted most of his speech to active service. He stated it was because of a promise he made to me some years ago that he brought in this Bill. He said he promised at that time to define active service. On 16th November, 1955, I had a motion down asking that the application for pensions should also cover applications for medals. Deputy MacEoin at that time accepted the motion and agreed to put it before the then Government. From November, 1955, until December, 1956, nothing was done about it. On 6th December, 1956, I asked the Minister what was being done about it and he promised we would have a Bill before the Christmas. That Bill did not materialise. It was only when there was a change of Government in 1957 that the then Minister fulfilled the Deputy's undertaking.

Deputy MacEoin said he promised to go into the question of active service. I do not remember that. There was nothing in my motion about it. He talked of its being put before the people in that general election. I have no recollection of its ever being made an issue of by any Party. I do not think it would be opposed by any Party.

Will I read the Fine Gael manifesto for the Deputy?

A manifesto is very little good. From November, 1955, until January, 1957, there was plenty of time to amend the Act, but nothing was done about it. I shall deal with manifestos before I am finished. In his answer to me on that occasion Deputy MacEoin was very wary about amending the Act. If he does not believe me, I would ask him to look up the debate for that occasion. It is in columns 861-864 of Volume 153 of the Official Report for 16th November, 1955. He will see his answer there. However, I am not arguing on that; I am concerned with the motion before us. If I thought for an instant that this motion was going to help the IRA in any way, I would ask the Minister to accept it. I do not know what the Minister is going to do with the motion.

Would it have helped in 1955?

What was asked in 1955 has long ago been granted.

But it would have helped in 1955?

The Deputy had an opportunity of defining active service.

I would refer the Deputy to the last day when I pleaded guilty to that and tried to explain.

Let us go into the question of active service. In his speech tonight the Deputy said that in the Act of 1934 the then Minister rightly did not define active service.

Yes. The Deputy said he was wise in not doing so. The Deputy went further and gave his own definition of active service. He gave us a long list of people who, in his opinion, were all on active service— people who carried arms, people who hid ammunition and people who did a whole lot of other things. The only people he did not mention were the people who kept the men on the run and in my opinion they were the most deserving.

They were included.

The Deputy did not include them tonight.

I took note of it. The Deputy did not. Let us be sensible. If the Minister accepts that motion and if it goes from this House that all these people are eligible for pensions, where are you going to start? Let us stop playacting with the IRA. We have been at it too long. Let us be realistic about the whole thing. I want to help the IRA. I am one of them myself. I want to help my comrades but I do not want playacting and I do not want it to go from this House that we are going to give pensions to men who carried arms or hid ammunition or kept people on the run. If we are going to say these things constituted active service, what about the people who have already got small pensions? Are you going to set up a board to go back 40 years and investigate what happened? Do not take it I am opposing anything that will help the IRA, but I do not want to be party to saying we are going to do something we have not the power to do and that would be completely impossible.

As I said, if I thought this motion would be of any benefit, I would ask the Minister to accept it. However, I do not think it would. I believe it will only succeed in fooling another batch of people and in raising false hopes in cases where nothing can be done. Therefore, the Minister would be very foolish in accepting such a motion at this time. Anything this motion asks can already be done under the existing Acts. By accepting the motion we would be only raising false hopes. People would read something into it and say to themselves: "We will all get pensions and gratuities," while there is no intention of providing that.

The last speaker said he was "one of them". Perhaps he was one of the lucky ones. I would ask the Minister to accept what is in this motion. When Deputy MacEoin or Liam Mellows was trying to form the Fianna, there was no means test. You were not asked how much you had a week or how much your mother had. The last time we discussed this, I appealed to the Minister that when it was a question of services rendered, whatever was being given, whether a gratuity as Deputy Sherwin suggested or some other gesture, should be at least free from a means test. Whether or not a person is in a good financial position at the moment does not take away from his contribution 40 years ago.

I listened to Deputy MacEoin's lectures when he was Minister for Defence and, indeed, I was impressed in Jury's Hotel when he said he was certainly going to right a wrong. I am not now sure whether that wrong has been righted. In the past, the definition of active service has been far too rigid. I told the Minister that when an applicant was accepted into the American Army, once he passed his medical test, his beneficiaries were guaranteed a certain amount of money in the event of his death. I think the sum was 10,000 dollars. He was on active service from the time he joined up.

I think I am correct in saying that of that wonderful party, Óglaigh na hÉireann, founded by Liam Mellows, only about 30 are in receipt of pensions for Fianna service. On the last occasion we discussed this matter, I listened to one of the speakers from the other side of the House saying how much Fianna Fáil had done for the Old IRA. On the question of special allowances, the Minister and his Department are aware of an applicant who is not able to walk, never mind to work, who condemned himself by a small figure of speech in his application, although he had Fianna service. I myself have certified the date of his Fianna service but there is still the departmental factor suggested by Deputy Tully that if there is any doubt at all, it goes against the applicant.

The definition of active service has been very rigid. There is one case I know of where those on the left-hand side of a fork road were granted pensions by virtue of their participation in active combat because the lorries went there, but those to the right of the fork road were not.

I sincerely believed that the Minister was anxious even at this late stage to make some gesture. I suggest to him that there would not be one objection to it in this House on the line of Deputy Sherwin's suggestion. Even if it were only £10 a year or 4/- a week, the Exchequer would not be terribly upset. We know that in another ten or 15 years there will not be many who will be able to enjoy the special allowance.

It is, I admit, too much to expect the Minister to reopen all the claims but there are some outstanding claims, particularly disability claims, that were not made at the right time. Where would you get a panel of doctors to agree that a person's condition was due to something that happened 40 years ago? I got TB and had my lung collapsed. How could I prove that that happened because I was in an internment camp or on hunger strike a number of years ago? It would be ridiculous, but nevertheless it was a fairly good assumption that it was attributable to my experiences in that period. I did not apply so the Minister can get that out of his head. I was thankful that I got my health back. There are many others about whom the Minister might take a sympathetic point of view.

I referred to the point made that members of the companies, whether the Fianna, the Volunteers or Cumann na mBan, would not ask for verification, even if they were to get it. I would ask the Minister to abolish the means test in relation to special allowances and pensions because they were won by effort and consequently those people should not be so treated.

If anything is being done under this Bill, I think it should be done for the widows with young children of those who have qualified for pensions and have since died. Only a week ago, I heard of a sad experience of a man who gave good service and who qualified for a pension after a long term of applying and going through the usual channels, and within six months of getting the pension, he died, leaving five very young children. That is only one instance. I would certainly appeal to the Minister to do something if he possibly can for that type of isolated case.

There is another group of people who, as the previous speaker said, are given an allowance on the strength of their circumstances at home. That is terribly wrong. I know of one case in Drumshambo of a man who was beaten and battered by the Tans and he qualified for the paltry sum of £11 because his family got on well and his circumstances at home were good. That unfortunate man cannot feel very proud of the treatment that has been meted out to him in giving him £11. That represents a very small weekly sum.

I realise that the Minister has a heavy task in meeting all the demands made upon him but it has come to my knowledge since I became a Deputy that a number of people who spent night and day carrying very important despatches are living in dire need. That work was just as important at the time as being in an actual engagement. They gave of themselves and lost their health as a result. They became dissatisfied about the necessity to have a medal. They ceased to have any interest in the matter. I would appeal to the Minister to give every consideration to such cases and there are many of them. Money given to these people would not be money badly spent. These people did not undertake the service they gave for the sake of what they would get out of it. They did it for their country. They did not visualise a pension or anything else. They gave their service to the cause. The number of these cases is diminishing and money spent on those who remain would be money well spent.

Leaving the special allowances aside, on the pensions, both disability and service, I do not think I could come to any other conclusion from the speeches I have heard than that there is a very small number of cases in the minds of the Deputies. That in itself indicates that, on the whole, quite a good job has been done in catering for the old Volunteers.

The first part of Deputy MacEoin's motion suggests that the Military Service Pensions Acts should be amended so that justice be done to legitimate claimants for Military Service Certificates. He bases that suggestion on another—that the absence of a definition of active service in the Acts of 1924 and 1934 had the effect of depriving applicants under these Acts of justice.

I think it can be presumed that when the 1924 and 1934 Acts were being prepared, the Governments—both Governments—they were Governments representing the two major political schools of opinion—were conscious of the fact that because of the varying types of service rendered during the 1916 to 1923 period, it would be difficult to give a definition of active service which would cover every possible case equitably. It can equally be presumed, however, that the Governments of the time had in mind a distinction between simple membership, which it was not intended to cover, and the type of service which ordinarily, having regard to the nature of the struggle and the circumstances of the period, would be regarded as continuous active service. Therefore, under both Acts, it was left to an independent authority to determine whether the service claimed by the applicant should be regarded as continuous active service. Every person who did not succeed or who had not applied under either of these Acts was given a further opportunity to put his case again under the 1949 Act. Thus, every person who believed that he was eligible for a certificate of military service or a service certificate was given the fullest opportunity of establishing his entitlement.

No doubt, in some cases, people failed to get certificates to which they felt they were entitled and, no doubt also, there were cases where people are regarded as having got certificates to which they were not entitled. It may be taken as inevitable that both sorts of cases should crop up in legislation of this kind, no matter what method of investigation might have been applied and no matter what standard of service was laid down. In matters of this sort, there are always borderline cases and, no doubt, many of the 2,000 cases that succeeded under the 1949 Act could very properly be placed in that category.

I know that when Deputy MacEoin was Minister for Defence, he made public his view that the Military Service Pensions legislation should be reviewed, that he did have prepared in the Department a definition incorporating his views as to what should constitute active service and that he also had prepared a draft scheme for the setting up of a number of local or regional boards to investigate appeals under amending legislation which he contemplated. But, since he has suggested that the Government of which he was a member accorded approval for what he had in mind and since he has described the succeeding Government and Ministers for Defence as having repudiated undertakings given by their predecessors, I must say that I can find no record in my Department that approval of Deputy MacEoin's proposals was at any time given by his Government or that the idea of the setting up of local boards to reexamine claims for military service pensions ever got beyond the paper stage or that a committee had been set up in the Department to carry out any such plan.

Deputy MacEoin did put his proposals before his Government but they were never approved. In fact, that Government seem to have been very conscious of the difficulties which would be presented by any such review and on several occasions they postponed consideration of the proposals. The records of the Department show that no such plan was approved by the previous Government and, therefore, there could not have been repudiation on the part of their successor, as alleged by Deputy MacEoin.

I do not think that a further reopening of military service pensions claims at this late stage would be justified or would, in its results, serve any useful purpose and I was interested to note that at least two speakers have endorsed that viewpoint. That is not in any way to disparage the service given by those who did not succeed in getting pensions and recognition of their service is given by the scheme of special allowances which takes account of membership or ordinary service where the member needs financial assistance for reasons of age or ill-health. In fact, more than 11,000 such allowances have already been awarded.

Ranging from £3.

What is the maximum? If the Deputy were to compare the average with the average in respect of pensions and allowances, he would give a less biassed picture of the situation. There are allowances of £200.

Not many, not as many as the £3 allowances.

It depends on circumstances, again, and marital status, family, and all that sort of thing come in to affect the amount.

£20 a year.

In this question of the Old IRA, it is quite obvious that Fianna Fáil are looked upon as an easy target. I have indicated as much in what I have said with regard to the proposal of Deputy MacEoin when his Government were in power. It is interesting to note—and I would call the attention of Deputies generally to it, particularly those who seem to lambast Fianna Fáil more than any other group in Dáil Éireann in relation to alleged neglect of the Old IRA—that there have been increases on four occasions in military service pensions and it is interesting to note the years in which they occurred—1953, 1959, 1960 and 1962.

I would refer the Minister to column 1243 of the Dáil Official Report of 12th December last for what I said.

Debate adjourned.
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