Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 29 Jan 1963

Vol. 199 No. 4

Private Members' Business. - Industrial Grants (Amendment) Bill, 1962—Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Mr. Gallagher

This Bill will go a long way towards bringing about the industrialisation we seek in this country. It will go a long way, indeed, towards meeting some of the recommendations in the report on the small western farms and providing for that industrial advance that is necessary to absorb those workers who cannot, and will not be able, to find employment on the land.

I think the Minister, in bringing in those two Bills, is taking a great step forward and the results of the development that will follow on them when they become law, will be evident in the years ahead. There are substantial cash grants and full training facilities now for workers and, indeed, provision for roads, bridges, sewers and houses. It is hard, indeed, to imagine how much further the Minister can go at this stage to encourage industrial effort in this country or how much more he could do to encourage outside manufacturers to come into the country and establish industries here. For that reason he deserves the full commendation of the House. I conclude by wishing the two Bills a speedy passage through the House and the reward that they are justly entitled to in the future.

Mr. Corish

Very briefly, I should like to welcome those two Bills for the reasons given by most members who spoke here this evening. I have advocated this change for quite a long time and I always felt that there should not be such discrimination between one part of the country and the other. I have always appreciated the difficulties west of the Shannon generally in the underdeveloped areas. I have even said that I thought, whilst they might get some assistance over and above that which would be given to the other parts of the country, there should not be what there has been over a number of years, such a colossal gap—a gap which induced many industrialists or manufacturers to go west of the Shannon in order to qualify for the bigger grants. As I say, I would be all in favour of giving some extra assistance to alleviate unemployment and diminish emigration to some extent but industrialisation in many other parts of the country was, in fact, neglected by reason of the fact that the grants given to other parts of the country to start industries there were not as attractive as those given in the underdeveloped areas.

I know emigration and unemployment have been very high in the north-west and south-west counties particularly but whilst it cannot be said that emigration in the province of Leinster has been big compared to Connaught, the big factor in Leinster is that there has not been a lot of emigration from Dublin, which is included in Leinster. If one has regard to the census of population figures and in the statistics contained in that report, he will see that there has been a tremendous amount of emigration from the Leinster counties, quite apart from Dublin, over the past 15 or 20 years. Therefore, I say, we in the Labour Party, and I in particular, welcome what seems to be a change of heart on the part of the Government. I am prepared to give the Government credit for making this change but I think also we should pay tribute to the Committee on Industrial Organisation that was established by this Government some months ago.

In paying tribute to this Committee which recommended those changes, I think one should also pay tribute to them for the excellent general reports which they have issued over the past few months. They do not pull punches in those reports. They are certainly very lucid documents and their recommendations are firm. There is not much vagueness about the recommendations made by the Committee on Industrial Organisation. It seems to me that this organisation appreciates to the fullest extent the situation in the country at the present time and the situation that there will be when we go into either the Common Market or some other Free Trade Area.

The Taoiseach some time ago had occasion to say that, whether we went into the Common Market or not, we were going into an era of freer trade. I think all of us knew, long before the Taoiseach made that speech, that we were going into an era of freer trade. The news this evening for those firm supporters of the Common Market must, indeed, be very discouraging. The situation to all of us is not encouraging because it is a confused one but I think every Member of the House is convinced that we are going into an era of freer trade and that the recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation must be put into effect, in the first place, by the Government, and secondly, by private enterprise and private industry.

When the Taoiseach spoke here on the Adjournment debate, he described the speeches of some of us in the Opposition as complete wailing, "cleamhsáning" and what have you but I remember on that particular occasion I gave, as I am prepared to give now, credit to the Government for acting on the recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation. The function of that organisation was to make recommendations, firstly to the Government and secondly, to those who are responsible for industry, and incidentally for employment in this country.

It seems to me the Government are prepared—and I applaud them for it —to put into legislative effect the recommendations in respect of assistance to industry and for the establishment of industry. Having said that, I want to go further by asking again what was asked by me on the Adjournment debate, what was asked by Deputy Norton and what is being asked by the bulk of the workers in this country, especially in respect of those industries where it is expected there will be redundancy. The Government may claim that by those particular pieces of legislation they have done their job. It has been suggested that an attempt to go further is not for them and it is not their job to interfere in the affairs of private enterprise or to interfere in private industry.

Again, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the various reports on the various industries that have been already surveyed and to draw his attention to the general reports by the Committee on Industrial Organisation. It seems to me that there are many Irish industrialists who are not very enthusiastic about making changes, reequipping themselves. It seems to me they have not shown themselves to date as wanting to avail of the generous grants available from the Government. I think, in these circumstances, that the Government must show some concern. I do not know whether they do or not. Up to this, apart from the grants they announce are available, there is no evidence that the Government are doing anything else to stimulate private enterprise and industry generally to fit themselves for the era of free trade into which we are undoubtedly going.

As a matter of fact, in one of these reports—I think it is the fourth interim report—the Committee on Industrial Organisation warns that many of those in industry in Ireland at the present time do not seem to have any inclination at all to effect the changes which will be necessary in the new situation. The Minister might make some comment on another part of the report which has been referred to by Deputy Gallagher. I assume that the Minister is not in a position to make any final pronouncement on this matter, but there has been a recommendation by the CIO that there should be established here certain development areas. The type of areas envisaged are well defined in the CIO report and, while details are not entered into, I think the Government should consider, as a matter of urgency, this admirable suggestion which has been made.

Finally, we welcome these Bills. We welcome this idea of balancing out, one might say, the application of grants all over the whole country. I believe it will do much more to promote industry than the legislation which we have had up to this, because whether anybody likes it or not—I am not speaking against the West of Ireland or any part of Ireland—there are traditional industrial centres in this country. In these places the problem of training workers will be relatively simple. They are admirably suitable for the establishment of industries and I trust that the grants announced now will be availed of, not as everybody seems to think, by foreigners exclusively. Every time we think of the establishment of an industry here we immediately conjure up a vision of a German, a Dutchman, a Britisher or an American. We welcome them if they establish an industry and give employment, but all of us would like to see greater participation by Irish people in industry. Whether it is participation by Irishmen exclusively or not does not make any difference. It might be better if there was participation by Irish people alone, but it seems that Irish capital is short. However, even participation in industry with the foreigners would be very admirable indeed.

I wonder if the Minister or the Government have thought about some form of control over money that is invested by way of grant or given by way of loan, when it is given in substantial amounts ? We had some cases where substantial amounts of money were advanced by way of grant or loan to industries that folded up. I do not say there were many but there were a few. The Government should try to devise some ways and means of exercising control, by way of the appointment of a director in an industry that had been established, with either a substantial grant or a substantial loan from the Industrial Credit Corporation.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

There are a few observations which I should like to make. First of all, I welcome these Bills. I particularly welcome the provisions in the Bills which are designed to minimise the distinction between the undeveloped areas and the rest of the country. It has been quite apparent for some time that the Undeveloped Areas Act was working very unfairly towards certain areas. In fact, there is no better example of this than the city and county of Limerick which are on the fringe of an undeveloped area. Despite numerous efforts by local groups and individuals over the past five or six years to secure industries, despite the fact that several foreign industrialists came to Limerick to examine its possibilities as an industrial location, despite the fact that a few industrialists were definitely interested in setting up a plant at Limerick, nevertheless, because of the inducements and the better grants and so on which were available in other areas they went into those areas.

I know, from my own experience, of at least three cases of foreign industrialists coming to Limerick and being interested in setting up industries. One of them told me that he had toured the rest of the country and had found that Limerick was the most suitable location for his particular type of industry. However, because of the fact that the inducements were better on the western seaboard, he subsequently opened a plant in the west. I welcome these Bills because while they do not abolish discrimination in the matter of grants as between one area and another, nevertheless, they place the entire country on a more or less equal footing.

There are two points relating to grants in which I am interested. First of all, there is the question of grants for small industries, particularly in rural areas. During the past year, I have had the experience of making representations on behalf of two people, each of whom lives in a small village in my constituency, and each of whom was interested in setting up a small industry. In one case, the employment content was four men and in the other it would be about eight girls. This may seem very small, and I did not feel very happy going along to Foras Tionscal looking for grants for these particularly small types of industries. Nevertheless, in these small villages where these people live, even a little industry employing four men or eight to ten girls would be of immense advantage. I would ask the Minister to give sympathetic consideration to applicants for grants for small industries.

There is another type of industry in which I personally am very interested and of which I had some experience. I am referring to industries which are mainly based on the processing of agricultural raw materials. In my particular case this refers to industries processing milk. I have the feeling, and I have got the impression, that there is more difficulty in establishing an industry utilising agricultural raw materials than there is in setting up any other kind of industry. I cannot for the life of me see why there is not more emphasis on, and why more encouragement and better inducements are not given to industries utilising agricultural raw materials.

In my constituency, which extends throughout a good part of the Golden Vale and is the most intensive milk-producing area in this country, I have been associated with three different proposals for the establishment of milk-processing industries. I am happy to say that one of those proposals has materialised within the past week. The position is that when a proposal for an industry of this kind is put forward the normal procedure is, first of all, to approach the IDA. I want to say that in my experience I have nothing but the highest praise for the officials and all those connected with the IDA. I can say the very same for Foras Tionscal.

A big problem and a big snag in trying to get milk-processing industries established is the fact that when the proposals have been considered by the IDA they are then submitted to the Department of Agriculture. In this industry which has materialised in my constituency in the past week there is foreign participation and proposals were submitted last August to the IDA. They were then submitted to the Department of Agriculture for their observations. These proposals lay in the Department until the 1st November and it was only when a certain amount of pressure was put on the Department that we finally were able to get the thing through.

I have had another case of an application for the extension of an existing industry where a proposal was referred to the Department of Agriculture and no effort was made to deal with it for several months. I would feel very happy if one or two officials qualified and competent to examine proposals of this nature could be attached to the IDA and possibly to Foras Tionscal—without having the dead hand of the Department of Agriculture frustrating all our efforts.

The new Bills will be generally welcomed. They have not gone the whole way towards abolishing or evening out, so to speak, different areas, but I think they will give a chance to areas outside the underdeveloped areas to promote and, perhaps, secure industries.

In the last paragraph of the Minister's opening address, he makes the point that the Committee on Industrial Organisation have recommended the setting up of development centres. I think this is an excellent idea, and I would ask the Minister to lose no time in examining this recommendation and in introducing a Bill for its enactment. To sum up I feel there should be more emphasis on promoting, encouraging and having better inducements for small industries. Secondly, in view of the fact that we have tremendous natural advantages in matters of soil, climate and so on for the promotion and establishment of industries based on agricultural raw material, I would also ask the Minister to review this aspect and, if possible, try and develop some means of overcoming this problem to which I have referred; that is, the dog-in-the-manger attitude of the Department of Agriculture.

Mr. Lalor

I take this opportunity of welcoming those two Bills. Any enactment which offers added inducements to industrialists from overseas or at home to further development in this country is something that must be welcomed in this House. The only possible objection or criticism I can offer is that, while the Bill reduces the differentiation between the underdeveloped areas and the rest of the country, we still have a situation whereby certain areas outside those underdeveloped areas—that should normally be considered as under-developed—are still not in a much stronger position. In the case of any industry coming to the country the industrialist setting up finds that, by going to the underdeveloped areas part of the country, covered by that particular legislation, he can get quite attractive additional grants. If for reasons best known to himself, or to the particular company contemplating setting up, he decides that quite an amount of transport is involved, he may decide that the additional inducement of those better grants is not sufficient to attract him to the underdeveloped west, with the result that he ultimately decides to set up as near to a seaport as possible. The object behind all these additional aids, I take it, is to try and work up our exportable produce. Naturally enough, when that is the particular object in mind, the most likely place and the most attractive place from the point of view of the industrialist is as near as possible to a seaport.

While welcoming both these Bills and seeing all the advantages contained therein, the fact remains that the very same grant is being offered to an industrialist, or an industry, proposing to set up in the city of Dublin. Quite a big proportion—I do not know how much exactly—but quite a number are centred near the port of Dublin and, as has been mentioned, that is one of the very few areas that has not suffered from emigration. I would have welcomed, if it could have been included in this particular Bill, some type of differentiation between the areas already highly industrialised and the rest of the country, quite apart from the areas at present described as undeveloped.

The difficulty from the point of view of a constituency such as mine is that, if an industrialist is either attracted by the grants to the undeveloped areas, or prefers to stay near to a port, there is no inducement offered which might bring him down in favour of my constituency. There is nothing the various development associations in Laois can offer which will outweigh the advantages which can be obtained in the undeveloped areas, on the one hand or, on the other, the desirability of staying near the point of export. Now that is one of the problems which this measure has difficulty in solving. Really to satisfy the people in my part of the country— there are other areas in the same situation, areas which were not included in the old congested districts, which is the area taken in under the Undeveloped Areas Act—something more will have to be done. There is justification for feeling aggrieved because so far none of the measures has been of any great advantage to my particular county of Laois. Down through the years, only one small undertaking has been in a position to make any use of any grant. I do not believe any other county has come off as poorly as the Laois section of my constituency.

Several speakers have already adverted to the apparent lack of interest taken by officials in the IDA and An Foras Tionscal in proposed small projects. These small projects do not appear to capture the imagination of officialdom in either An Foras Tionscal or the IDA. This is most unfortunate. Country Deputies are well aware that what is really required and what would be really successful in the smaller country towns are the small projects. Officialdom seems unable to visualise an industry with an employment potential for anything less than 500 people. Such a potential does not exist in small villages and towns, and the surrounding countryside, and it is from these areas that the greatest flow of emigration takes place. As someone said today, we have no enterprise to hold the young people of 16 and 17 years of age.

On one particular occasion—I have dealt with An Foras Tionscal on a number of occasions—I approached this body with what I considered to be a very good project. It was a small project, with an initial employment potential for some 15 workers, but there were possibilities of expansion. The project was based on the development of a quarry. The idea was that choice ground limestone tiled surrounds would be manufactured. A certain amount of market investigation had been done in England and it was apparent that this product might have something of a snob value. Section 2 of the 1959 Act was produced to me and I was told that the project would have to be such that it would be justified by its very size and its exceptional national importance; it would then qualify for a grant. Apparently a project with an employment potential of from 15 to 25 people was not one they could regard seriously. Apparently it was also not one of exceptional national importance.

That type of approach should, I think, be discouraged. I have never met with anything but the greatest courtesy in An Foras Tionscal, but one has that feeling that cold water is being poured on one's project. That is a bad approach. Development associations all over the country have schemes. Possibly holes can be bored in them, but I hold that they should be encouraged. There should be a full discussion and there should be a sympathetic approach. Suggestions could be made for improvement so that the proposition might be brought forward again, better planned and polished. If the project is a small one, it attracts no attention. I believe that it is small projects which will save the country towns and villages and the rural areas generally.

Development centres are recommended in the CIO report. One speaker on this side of the House suggested today that, when this matter comes to be tackled, stress should be laid on particular areas which have been pretty well developed industrially. I cannot see his reasoning because I believe the purpose of the Undeveloped Areas Act is to attract industries to areas which are not developed. I do not think establishing development centres in areas already developed would be a good idea.

The Deputy mentioned that this might have the effect of inducing people from other areas into developed areas. He referred to the fact that Irish people seem to be reared with a sort of emigration tradition. But there is no migration tradition; Irish people, in the main, are not anxious to move from one part of the country to another. The angle should be that where there is a small development potential and where an area is devoid of industry, this development centre should be located.

An Foras Tionscal should be encouraged to make suggestions. Deputy Gallagher mentioned that lists of towns should be drawn up emphasising that particular areas are suitable for a particular type of industry. In most parts of the country at present, there are development committees and, to my knowledge, they have been straining over the past years to attract industry to their areas. The ideal places are those where agricultural produce could be used as a raw material. We have received in my district the greatest help, from the point of view of advice, from General Costello of Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann. He seems to be in demand all over the country and he has been responsible for encouraging development in different parts.

Foras Tionscal should have some type of advisory service available. There should be an advisory service whereby officers of Foras Tionscal could go to the country and discuss with different associations the pros and cons of trying to follow up some type of industry, especially with the view to utilising the raw material that could be made available from their own agricultural resources. More use should be made of the various bodies like Foras Tionscal, not so much from the point of view of having people with ideas coming to them, but having members of Foras Tionscal going down the country and discussing problems with the various development associations. That is all I wish to say, except to add that I would like to have seen some type of differential being introduced whereby there would be an inducement to industrialists to come to outlying areas to set up factories instead of in places like Dublin which is already industrialised.

Mr. Donegan

I should like to welcome these measures. I should also like to point out that it was the inter-Party Government who first introduced industrial grants and, at the same time, gave freedom from income tax for new exports.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is a long bow. Now go back a few years.

Mr. Donegan

In 1956——

Mr. J. Lynch

What happened in 1952?

Mr. Donegan

I should like to tell the Minister what happened in 1952. In 1952, you were operating the Control of Manufactures Act which prescribed that industry must have at least 51 per cent. Irish capital and which kept a myriad of industries——

Mr. J. Lynch

It is still in operation.

Mr. Donegan

——from establishing themselves here. Over a period from 1932 until 1954, and during the years 1948 to 1951, this side, when in Government, took a line on the Control of Manufactures Act and allowed industries, even without at that time repealing the Act, to set up——

Mr. J. Lynch

The Act is still in force.

Mr. Donegan

Why is the Minister in bad humour? Perhaps it is because he has a bad liver or maybe it is because it is after Christmas.

Mr. J. Lynch

I cannot stomach unsubstantiated claims.

Mr. Donegan

I have not interrupted the Minister more than three times in my life. I write him friendly letters asking him to help me and he always does. Why does he now interrupt me after my first sentence?

Mr. J. Lynch

Because the Deputy is making unfounded claims.

Mr. Donegan

The Minister will find that the Industrial Grants Act, 1956, was the first industrial Act and if he wants to go back further to find out what happened in 1952, he can find out that in 1952 he was operating the Control of Manufactures Act. What I want to say is that all this legislation is a complete repeal——

Mr. J. Lynch

Will the Deputy give way to me for 30 seconds?

Mr. Donegan

I will make sure that the Minister will be as little heard as he is trying to ensure that I am not.

Mr. J. Lynch

Would the Deputy give way to me for five seconds?

Mr. Donegan

No, because the Minister wanted to interrupt me when I spoke my first sentence. There was always in the legislation, and it was a bone of contention, in relation to the establishment of industries, a bias in favour of the undeveloped areas and there still is in this legislation, except in regard to some grants. I do not think it is a serious bias. The clause now inserted whereby people in exceptional circumstances, or where it is obvious to Foras Tionscal that an industry could not be established in the undeveloped areas, may be given the full two-thirds grant, does provide the safeguard we want.

I remember, for instance, an industry in which a type of coal briquette was to be manufactured in the town of Drogheda a few years ago and the greater grant was available if the briquette was made in Athlone. Of course, to an industry like this, 10/- a ton is a fortune. The situation was that the industrialist could have been tempted if he could have used a place like Drogheda where he had factory space on which he was ready to build, at the wharfside, and where the moving costs of bringing the raw material, which happened to be waste coal from Britain, to the site would have been so much lessened. Most of the usage would have been in the city of Dublin. It seemed silly to ask the industrialist to go to Athlone and bear the cost of the haulage there and back, which of course cancelled out the project. That was due to existing legislation and the fact that this legislation is designed to get rid of that difficulty is a good thing.

I commend the Minister on it and it is a good thing that it has been looked after. I would say that in relation to the undeveloped areas, and the establishment of industries generally, mobility of labour in present day circumstances is an existing fact. Big industrial centres like Liverpool, Birmingham and Coventry will exert their pull and people will go there. We have only to look at America where 60 years ago 70 per cent. of the people existed on the land and 30 per cent. in the urban areas. Now you have got less than 20 per cent. on the land and more than 80 per cent. in the urban areas. You could possibly call that sort of movement emigration between the various States. Whether we like it or not, that is going to happen and we should not lose an industry because we give the greater grant to enable it to be established in an undeveloped area which might not be suitable.

I quite agree with previous speakers that there must be some extra help in the Statute Book for the establishment of industries in undeveloped areas, to encourage the employment of people rather than the mass movement of families from places where there is not sufficient industry. I would say this about the undeveloped areas that there are pockets in various places where one would not have expected to find them, places which could be termed undeveloped areas but are not. The snag about that is that if you start making changes, I suppose every county council, every Deputy and every local person would try to plug their own place and get it declared an undeveloped area.

For instance, in Louth, we have the area of the Cooley peninsula. The other day I heard the figures for emigration from that area, the number of children who had been attending the local technical school and who had gone to Britain or further afield. The figures were frightening, to say the least of it. They were authenticated by the headmaster of the technical school and the clergy. That is the problem there, even though they have the advantage of the opportunity of getting a job in Dundalk, Ardee or Drogheda or even Dublin without going too far away. At the same time, there is nothing in the area. It was there the ESB first started the rural electrification campaign. It was densely populated, with a growing number of young children. Members of these families must emigrate but in an industrialised area such as Louth, that peninsula would hardly have a chance with the present approach to things, of being declared an undeveloped area. That is something that might be considered. I am sure other Deputies could speak for similar pockets in their own area.

When this matter was discussed at Louth County Council meeting, immediately another councillor got up and said he knew of another such place. You must take places that are genuinely in this condition. I am satisfied there are such places in rural Ireland due to high populations and lack of employment and there is need for their declaration as undeveloped areas. Of course, the escape clause now would help if there were an opportunity to set up industry there. The section whereby in the large-scale grants, it is possible to have a split grant-loan, which is a loan free of interest, the grant and a loan from the Industrial Credit Company being brought up to the total value of two-thirds of the fixed assets, is good because it means in fact that an industrialist setting up a factory has now only got to find, if he has a completely viable project, the interest accruing and, at the same time, keep depreciation on the plant funded and the workers paid and really only requires one-third of the cost of the fixed assets, plus, of course, his ordinary trading capital.

I think that gives a wonderful opportunity and, without doubt, you must have a flow of industry here. I can never understand why that has not happened. We are only 40 minutes flying time from points in Britain where they are overcrowded, apart from anything else. I should imagine people would like to live here because they would be able to drive along uncrowded roads. Yet, we have not had the influx of British industrialists we rightly should have had. In the '20s, no doubt there was a feeling of distrust in the mind of the British industrialist when he thought of establishing an industry here but that must have gone during the '30s and after the war, it seems quite extraordinary that we had not more British industries established here. I think we had more continental industries established here during that period. Even in our large-scale projects such as the production of cement and things like that, it seems to be people with continental links who wish to come here. I am not producing that as a criticism of anybody or any Government. I have made my particular criticism which evoked an interruption from the Minister. However, he is a good friend of mine and so we may forget about it——

Mr. J. Lynch

No, I shall deal with it very effectively.

Mr. Donegan

Right. It is extraordinary that the British did not come here. I feel it will happen now because it will have to happen. These grants must be a great incentive. They represent a different approach from the approach in Northern Ireland where the people are in a bad way with much unemployment. They provided and built factory space which they made available to industrialists. Our system is a better one because no ready-made factory space can be said to be suitable for any industry. Industrialists may buy factory space in the North but I do not think anything you would buy would be as good as what you build if you have the money because you would build exactly what suited you. Our present arrangement is good.

The Deputy from Laois spoke of Foras Tionscal throwing cold water on a project. I wonder if he ever went looking for a loan himself? I did so as many times as I have fingers and toes. The position of a person lending money is always one in which he throws cold water on the project. He knows the person who wants to do something, whether to increase his production, or give greater service, is overflowing with enthusiasm and when he gives money, he has to justify it. It is only natural that Foras Tionscal, or the Minister, or the Industrial Development Authority, should look at projects with what must appear to those presenting them as a rather jaundiced eye. I think there is nothing wrong with that; I think the Foras Tionscal approach is good.

The case is being made repeatedly that there should be more thought for smaller industries and I think the lack of investment in such industries around the country was the cause in many cases of their disappearance. Because of new processes, there are many things turning up now which will not employ 500 people but which are exceedingly viable and provide excellent employment, even though operating on a small scale. I am thinking of such processes as spray skimmed milk and I know of one instance where this business was set up near a co-operative society, where the farmers could deliver the skimmed milk, if they did not want to use it themselves, as they left the creamery. I happen to know they could sell twice their present production. That seems to be something that has a market.

There are other activities related to agriculture such as the pre-packed potatoes which may employ eight or ten people, as the Deputy from Laois mentioned. You also have the handling of vegetables, horticultural products, all small efforts which should not be forgotten. We have them in every town and everybody knows about them. If they are forgotten, what will happen is that very large industries will take on the job. It is the way of all industry at present but if a small unit is economic, I think it would be right for Foras Tionscal and the Minister to approach it with perhaps a greater degree of sympathy than in the case of a large application. These small units can live and it has been proved, of course, in the Common Market that they can live in competition with large ones. It is fashionable that the words "Common Market" or "EEC" should not occur once in the Minister's statement. I do not blame him for that; it is a sticky problem. But, whether the Common Market comes or not, we are going to have freer trade; and no matter what happens today, the situation, by and large, will be the same for us. If we do not industrialise, our people will have to emigrate.

As far as we on this side are concerned, we welcome these measures. They are in line with the report of the CIO. They bear the approbation not only of the Government but of those who are charged with the task of finding out exactly what we need. The question of development centres was dealt with by that committee, and the Minister says he will consider that matter later. I am not convinced that a rigid line in regard to development centres would be a good thing. I am not convinced, for instance, that the Shannon Free Airport Industrial Estate is doing as well as it should. That is not meant as a criticism. But you can regularise too much.

If an industrialist likes a place, if he likes the opportunity of employing good labour and likes services such as railways and wharfs, there should not be too great a desire to push him towards a centre for development. If he is prepared to go to one place and another place loses him, I would lean towards giving him the maximum aid. At the same time, we should take into account the needs of the undeveloped areas and the necessity for preserving some difference, with the saving clause that if a development company or an individual has attracted an industry to an area, that area should get the industry, if it is willing to come there.

One often hears of industrialists coming to an area as if politicians or development committees had attracted them. I know that many people who come here make contact with the presidents of chambers of commerce or with mayors or corporations. But most of them make a business contact, and it is from there that the project progresses. The person who seeks to attract a person to a particular area may be pushing his own boat out at the same time, but, if it gives employment, I am happy. You cannot interfere too much. We must try to attract the type of industry that will allow us to employ our own people at home.

The Minister dealt with the question of high investment industries with a relatively small employment content. The safety clause there is that grants are to be limited to £1,000 per worker employed. I believe that is right. I do not think anybody should get more than £1,000 by way of grant in order to employ one worker. I wonder if an industry in which there is a very high level of capital investment in relation to the number of workers employed is the type of industry we can afford or one that would be of any value to us? The only reason it would be of any value is its effect on our economy and the other industrial sectors. This sort of industry is usually a high-profit industry. People who come here to set up industry, whether it is an industry of that kind or not, do so for a profit. I wonder should we give a grant of one quarter and a grant loan of one quarter, say, of £200,000, to an industry where the employment per worker in relation to capital invested might be of the order of one worker per £20,000 or £30,000? It is a question of whether we can afford it. Probably we can.

I do not want to say anything critical about legislation we have just passed. We are debating legislation for Nítrigin Éireann Teoranta which I hope will go through. There is no grant suggested by the Minister. This is an industry where we are expending £20,000 to employ one worker. In the ordinary way, however, if there were not a labour crisis in an area, that is too much money. We could spend it better on the small industries mentioned and in other ways in order to employ our people. It is an overenthusiastic approach and might be to our detriment. We are limited in the amount of money we can spend. Relative to our needs, our national loans are small. It is not so long since a national loan did not fill. Somebody might say over there: "They did not fill for you." But we can say we are offering extremely attractive terms. Both statements would be correct.

The figure given of £1,000 per worker employed is more in line with what we should expend in relation to what is available. Ten or 12 years ago, it was believed that £1,000 should employ one worker. Now, that is gone forever and the figure is £3,000 or £4,000. I do not think an industry which requires to spend £20,000 in order to employ one worker would be of any interest to us. I commend this legislation. If I sounded a bit critical at the start, I am sure the Minister will realise it was not all intentional anyway.

Mr. J. Lynch

I hope the Deputy will be here when I reply.

Mr. Crinion

We in the eastern part of the country welcome this Bill. We always felt that the industrial grants were loaded in favour of the western areas. When we tried to get industrialists interested in the east, they always pointed out the advantages of going west. Over the years, we in Ireland have had a problem of unemployment and emigration. The only way of solving that is by building factories. The land can absorb only a certain number; and where can the remainder go except into industry? We have been building factories at a reasonably fast rate, but we in the east have always been up against this problem of higher grants in the west. One of the most welcome features in the Bill is that large industries can be established outside the west and still receive a grant. Further, the industry does not have to be near a seaport in the east in order to receive the higher grant.

I should like the Minister to consider the idea of giving more help to small factories and firms. Quite a number of these have been refused grants by Foras Tionscal. Looking back over the years, we cannot fail to appreciate that most of what are now big firms had very small beginnings and worked up. We have the case of Henry Ford who started in a small way and I am led to believe that the Guinness firm also had a small beginning. We must remember it is our people at home, with initiative and foresight, who will provide the fabric of our national industrial effort.

Take the case of a person working with a firm who has an idea and whose only chance of expanding it is at night when he finishes work. He does it as a hobby, which later develops to the stage where he is able to employ a few people. Then he finds he is held up for the extra money necessary for expansion in his efforts to develop and attract markets. Grants are not available to him. If some of this money were devoted to helping such small firms, it would give a considerable amount of employment in the country and would foster a new race of industrialists who would be completely Irish, with their roots in the country. I would ask the Minister to consider that idea.

We all welcome industries in all parts of the country since they give so much employment. In the different areas, we have development associations, chambers of commerce, anxious to attract industries to their towns but who find it very hard to get in touch with interested industrial concerns. There is a wide gap between a town looking for an industry and an industry abroad anxious to set up a factory somewhere in Ireland. I submit that better liaison facilities should be available to chambers of commerce and other development associations in towns in this country and interested industrialists abroad. I can understand the view of the Department that industrialists should not be pestered by every town in Ireland which is anxious to contact an industry but there must be some way in which the Industrial Development Association can help in this matter.

It is good to see that the Minister, in this legislation, is thinking in terms of providing grants towards the enlargement and adaptation of existing concerns. It is very good for our economy as a whole to see existing industries enlarging. Nothing succeeds like success and from that point of view, we cannot welcome too warmly the development over the past few years of our smaller concerns. I attended the opening of a new building at Naas last year. The Minister performed the official opening ceremony in respect of a building which was practically doubling the size of the old factory. Many firms lack the capital to carry out such extensions and therefore we can see the benefit of this legislation in helping them to get over that difficulty.

Section 5 provides for grants towards the training of workers. That will be particularly welcome in parts of the country. I was interested in a concern in Kilcullen, County Kildare, some time ago. We went before the Industrial Development Association and told them that the Germans interested in the undertaking were seeking a grant towards the cost of training employees. Apparently it takes the best part of six months properly to train personnel in the use of machines and when these people discovered there was very little hope of a grant for this purpose, it dampened their enthusiasm.

When considering the establishment of an industry in any area, we need to study carefully what is needed most from a new factory. With a new tractor, the controls have to be explained. They will always be different, just as in a new car. That is much more so in the case of a new industry. The new machines will be completely foreign to anybody in the area. Naturally, you will not get the same amount of production out of those machines until the workers are fully skilled in their use. The concern may have to train quite a number of workers, say, 100 or 200, or maybe more. Naturally, we should give a grant towards training. I welcome this Bill because that is one aspect which will help to promote industries in my part of the country.

Section 6 relates to grants towards roads and bridges. They are essential. A factory will need a road into it. If it needs a river or a plentiful supply of water, it will have to be based near a river and naturally there will be a bridge. I welcome the idea of taking into account every aspect that a factory will need—roads, bridges, harbour equipment, if near a seaport, and a railway line. These will be welcomed, particularly in some of the areas where the railway may be closing down. It may help to preserve the railway line in that area.

There are also grants for dwelling accommodation. There was the question of the location of a factory in Kilcock last year and difficulty arose about getting houses for skilled workers for that factory. There was no help towards the building of houses or the development of a site there and the promoters of that industry turned away from the town. If this Bill had been in operation a year ago, I feel that today Kilcock would have another factory. An extra industry in Kilcock would be a great advantage from the point of view of employment given over a very wide area. Such extra employment would be a boon to the area for miles around. In that respect, I particularly welcome the relevant section in the Bill.

It is desirable that development authorities and chambers of commerce should be able to meet industrialists and to invite them to their area. It is rather difficult to get in contact with them. Many large firms in the world had very small beginnings. If something could be done for the small concerns throughout our country, which cannot qualify for grants, it would be a very good thing and quite possibly it would help them to develop into very big concerns in the future.

Mr. Byrne

I welcome this Bill, which I consider is, to a considerable extent, indicative of fresh thinking by the Minister, An Foras Tionscal and the IDA on the State policy of providing cash grants to industry by way of incentive for setting up new industries. The maximum grant is being raised in the Bill to £250,000 and the difference in treatment between the undeveloped areas and the rest of the country is to a great extent being removed. I welcome that because, as I have said here on several occasions, artificial incentives to industry to localise itself in one place rather than another can be overdone.

Deputies on all sides of the House have spoken this evening of the alleged prejudice of the IDA against very small-scale industry. I do not believe that such a prejudice exists. However, I do believe that the IDA must be fully conscious of the grave competitive disadvantages with which any very small-scale industry is faced. The idea of establishing a tiny factory in a rural town or village as a means of revitalising that area is, to some extent, based on a false premise. The industry which will succeed in the future is the large-scale industry, the industry which can avail of automated techniques, the industry which can engage in research, the industry which is sufficiently well capitalised to enter into world markets and to engage in production on a large scale. All the indications throughout the world are that these are the industries which will thrive in the future. The economies of large-scale mass production are very considerable.

Because I think that the removal of the disparity between the undeveloped areas and the rest of the country and the raising of the maximum grant are indications of fresh thinking in regard to this matter, I welcome this Bill. I have great respect and sympathy for any Deputy who is anxious to obtain employment for the people of the towns and villages in his constituency but we must strive to take a national view of this problem of providing new employment opportunities. Employment provided anywhere in the country is a good thing. Above all, I believe we should avoid sentimentality in our approach to the question of establishing industry in outlying areas.

We have heard it said that the proper type of industry to establish in this country is one which utilises agricultural raw material. The raw material for Irish industry in the future is Irish brainpower and that is why I welome particularly the establishment of large-scale industries which will have the finances to engage in research which is very largely the clue to industrial prosperity in this age. We all know the story of the wonder fabric terylene, a product which was developed only after immense research. If the firm which developed that product had not the funds to engage in that research, it would never have been discovered. Irish brains are second to none and if we condition ourselves to regard Irish brainpower as the basic raw material of industry, we shall develop that type of industry which will exploit world markets on a large scale.

Many of the grants being made under this scheme are being given to foreign industrialists. From time to time, one does hear criticism of that, and those persons who engage in criticism, for example, of Germans entering the industrial sphere in this country appear to take their cue from the British Tory press. We should welcome industrialists, no matter from where they come, and indeed I welcome particularly the turnabout in Fianna Fáil policy in this respect. I would urge the Minister to pursue to its logical conclusion this policy of welcoming foreign industrialists and repeal what remains of the Control of Manufactures Acts. We should make it clear to foreigners when they come to this country that we are a plain, simple people, that we are not trying to create here a mecca for millionaires——

Mr. J. Lynch

But not too simple, I hope.

Mr. Byrne

——that, in particular, our fabric of industrial relations is based on the trade union movement and that we expect employers to recognise that. I say that because there have been one or two indications of a certain degree of misunderstanding by foreigners on that score. I often wish someone could persuade the Minister to urge those foreigners engaged in industry here to set up, where they can, profit-sharing schemes whereby the workers engaged in their industries will share in the profits and thus ensure some return to Irish nationals for the capital made available so generously by the State to these people who come here.

A very good case can be made for the Minister or the Industrial Development Authority insisting on the right to appoint watchdog directors, his nominees or one of his nominees, to these companies, particularly foreign companies which receive large grants from the State. We have the precedent there already where the Industrial Credit Company is concerned. As far as I know, they very rarely invest in a company without insisting on some measure of control. Even if the State were never to draw profits from its investment in these industries—for these are free grants which are envisaged by the Bill—it would be well that the Irish taxpayers were represented on the boards of these companies.

I mentioned a few moments ago that artificial inducements to localise industry in one place or another can perhaps be overdone. Industries should, first and foremost, be located in those places where they will be most efficient, where costs can be kept down to the minimum, and that means usually adjoining a seaport. Tremendous economies can be achieved by industries where they are to a greater or lesser extent concentrated together as compared with the industry which may be miles away from its counterpart. I do not say that in order to make the case that more new industries should be given to Dublin rather than other parts of the country. On the contrary, I recognise that Dublin is far too big for the size of the country and I deplore the parochial approach to this problem of creating new employment opportunities in this State. There is too much wrangling going on between one town and another; there is too much bickering confronting the Industrial Development Authority, with Deputies saying: "You did not give us an industry and you gave it to some place else."

Now that the Minister has dropped the very rigid approach to the question of undeveloped areas vis-à-vis the rest of the country, the time has come seriously to consider the establishment, somewhere within 50 or 60 miles of Dublin, of a new town on the lines of the British new towns such as Harlowe and other places about which we have heard, where we could have six, eight or ten industries which would have the advantage of lower costs and a competitive advantage in entering world markets. There is no doubt whatever that the only industries which will succeed in the future are those which can turn out the competitive product without protection which will sell itself on the international markets.

Mr. Corry

I welcome this Bill. To my mind, it is a further advance in the position we are endeavouring to reach to provide employment for our own people. I welcome it particularly because of what Deputy Donegan called pockets. In my constituency, in Cobh, Midleton, Youghal and Mallow, we have industries, but the town of Fermoy is a blot on the landscape in that regard. Steps were practically ready to be taken to get an industry in Fermoy when the Undeveloped Areas Bill cropped up. I hope we will now have an opportunity of getting a decent industry there to cope with the unemployment which undoubtedly exists in that area. There is also a stretch of hinterland from Kanturk and Newmarket to the Kerry boundary in which there is an undoubted opportunity for an industry based on agriculture about which my friends opposite talked.

We must keep in mind that any industry based on agriculture will have to realise that the employment that will undoubtedly be created on the land through that industry must be quoted at an entirely different price from the price paid to agricultural labour today. Those of us who are living in what I might call practically industrial areas and who are farming in those areas find that very often the agricultural labour disappears overnight. There is no man—and more credit to them—who has only the labour of his bones to offer who will work for £6 or £7 a week on the land when he can get anything from £14 to £25 a week in industry. That is the position at present existing within a few miles of my door and I am proud to see it there. There must be a levelling up in regard to the agricultural industry in general. The days of cheap food are gone.

I was looking at Section 2 of the Bill and I was wondering how it would work out. There are proposals in regard to AFD plants which are to be established in the south. An AFD plant will require a capital of £250,000. The labour force of the factory will be 700 people, not counting transport, clerical and field workers. If we could get rid of subsection (1) (b), we would be entitled to the grant of £250,000. I take it that under this Bill the plant will be entitled to £125,000, that is, one half of the total amount.

I am wondering whether the farmer who turns to intensive farming, to the production of large quantities of vegetables, will be entitled to 50 per cent. costs under this Bill. At present he is entitled to £17 when he employs an extra man. This Bill provides for a grant of £1,000 if you employ an extra man, so I was wondering whether agriculture is an industry within the meaning of the Act, and whether when we have these factories established, and if we give employment to ten extra men for the production of cabbage and cauliflowers or anything of that description, we are entitled to a 50 per cent. grant towards the cost of the job, or are we entitled to £1,000 per man? I cannot see how we can be done out of it. It will be very happy news for the tillage farmers in my constituency.

After all, they are establishing an industry to grow cauliflower, cabbage or peas and, in my opinion, they are entitled to that grant the same as the industrialists, whether they are Germans or Jews.

Mr. Dillon

If he does not grow them, there will be no processing to be done.

Mr. Corry

As I pointed out at the outset, there is no use in offering a man an uneconomic price to grow something, just as there was no use in offering 1/- a gallon for milk. We have come to the point where we must pay a farmer sufficient money to enable him, in turn, to pay his workers something very close to the industrial wage, something that will keep him on the land, something that will not put us in the position into which we are rapidly drifting, in which there will be no one left on the land except the old age pensioner or the cripple. That is happening very rapidly right through the rural areas.

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear!

Mr. Corry

You will not cure it by telling a man: "You keep cows and milk them, and we will pay you 1/- a gallon for five years." That would not enable him to pay £1 a week to his worker. We have to change that. We have to get away from that aspect, so far as agriculture is concerned. We are, I think, going the proper way about it when we establish, within reasonable distance of one another, vegetable processing plants which will undoubtedly give employment, in the first instance, to the rural workers in the district and, in the second instance, will give employment on the land to extra men. If I am wrong the Minister, when he comes to conclude, will dash any hopes that I may have raised.

Under this Bill, will a farmer who employs ten extra men for the production of peas, cauliflowers, or cabbage, be entitled to 50 per cent. of the extra cost of setting up the machinery to do so? Or, if that is too high, will he be entitled to £1,000 per man put into employment? We hear a great deal from the non-farmer about the flight from the land. If the non-farmer were brought in for a day, and kept on the land, he would die of fright. If these people are so anxious about the flight from the land, should the same terms not apply equally to the man giving employment on the land as to the man who builds a factory? If the idea is to give £1,000 to a man to employ another man in an industry, why should the poor old farmer get only £17 for employing a man on the land? The gap is too great and it is time it was narrowed. I will not speak about the Common Market.

Mr. Dillon

That is a loss to us.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

We would be anxious to know what is going to happen.

Mr. Corry

I am hoping de Gaulle wins.

Mr. Dillon

Wins what?

Mr. Corry

Every bit of it.

Mr. Dillon

Every bit of what?

Mr. Corry

The beggar is down now. Keep him down.

Mr. Dillon

Who is the beggar to whom the Deputy refers?

Mr. Corry

Now, would I not hate to say anything about that?

Mr. Byrne

It might embarrass the Minister.

Mr. Corry

I do not want to go into that side of it. If Britain goes in in the morning, with her colonies and her Commonwealth, and we go in on her tail, the farm labourer will still be working here for £7 a week.

Mr. Byrne

And there will be a great many Irish workers coming home, if she does not go in.

Mr. Corry

In all the White Papers that have been issued to date on the Common Market, prices for agricultural produce do not hold out much hope. The hope we have is that this will be a closed market for our agricultural produce and we will no longer be nailed as we have been nailed, having to pay a levy on our produce into Britain, a levy for which some genius who went over on behalf of the Irish people signed.

An Ceann Comhairle

This does not seem to have any great relevancy to the matter before the House.

Mr. Corry

I was asked a question and I was trying to answer it.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy keep to the two Bills the House is discussing.

Mr. Corry

I am keeping to them. I am pointing out the position as I see it. I am saying that we are starting these vegetable plants down through the country and we are entitled to the same terms——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has said that several times.

Mr. Corry

You cannot say a good thing too often.

An Ceann Comhairle

I suggest the Deputy say something on the Bill now.

Mr. Corry

I welcome the Bill. It is an improvement in that it gives an opportunity to areas which are, in my opinion, in a worse position than any undeveloped area in the country. I refer to the pockets centred in places where there is a great deal of employment. I have stated what I think will obtain under this measure. If I am wrong, the Minister will contradict me when he comes to reply.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Like other speakers, I welcome this Bill, but with certain reservations. We are all, I think, very dissatisfied with the existing legislation, which appears to have failed completely in its purpose of providing employment in the underdeveloped areas since emigration from those areas is just as strong, if not stronger, than it was before. This is an attempt now to equalise or equate the situation in the whole country and to give to other parts of the country benefits hitherto enjoyed only in the underdeveloped areas.

It seems to me that there is really no change in the powers held by Foras Tionscal. I should like the Minister to tell the House if it is true that the entire Board is composed of civil servants. While accepting that the Minister must appoint people for the purpose of protecting the State investment and ensuring that the funds made available are utilised to the best advantage, I cannot conceive that civil servants are the best people to decide local interests, the siting of industries, and so on. Perforce they must consider largely the statistical book point of view. As long as they can place the investment with a reasonable guarantee of its being successful and with the possibility of its creating certain employment, everything is all right from their angle; but the human aspect should enter into the picture as well. There are many instances in which small industries should have been able to get certain benefits from the State. I am personally cognisant of several.

I cannot see anything in the Minister's speech that highlights the necessity for the development of small rural industries. If we look at the country as a whole—this is world-wide—and look at the dwindling agricultural employment potential, the Minister will accept that one of the most important things and one of the most eminently desirable things here is the development as far as possible of small rural industries. If we do not develop on those lines, then we shall not keep our people on the land. The Minister's speech dealt with large sums of money—£250,000, £500,000 and augmentations by way of financial loan, industrial loans, and so on. There is very little reference to the smaller type of industry.

Very recently, I attended a conference of the FAO in Rome. One of their great problems was that of dealing with the rural population. One of their great aims is to retain as far as possible rural populations where they were born and bred, not only because it is desirable that people should stay in their own surroundings, if possible, but also in order to preserve the inherent stability of the State itself. Their solution for the problem is the establishment of rural industries.

From time to time, many people have come to me and asked me if I could get from the Industrial Credit Corporation, Foras Tionscal, or whatever the body was, the wherewithal to enable them to start a small industry. In many cases the sum was as small as £5,000 or £10,000. I have been unable to get it on any occasion whatever. In any of the bigger projects that I have been concerned with— there were only one or two where I have been acting on behalf of people who wished to start something in my constituency or in adjacent constituencies—where bigger sums of money were involved, I found them much more accommodating. I should like to direct the Minister's attention to that and would ask him, when replying to the debate, to reassure me and the House that there is provision in these two Bills to meet that very vital problem.

If that is not done, I do not think the aim of these two Bills will be achieved. As I take it, the aim of the Bills and of previous legislation is to retain our people within this country, to stop emigration, to give employment and, naturally, to expand our economy as a whole.

To return to the constitution of Foras Tionscal, if I am correct in my surmise, we are dealing with a group of civil servants.

Mr. J. Lynch

You are not.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I am not?

Mr. J. Lynch

The last time I interrupted, I was shouted down. I am afraid to open my mouth when Deputies go off the rails.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I do not get annoyed, as the Minister knows. I should be glad to know if private individuals are appointed to Foras Tionscal, what particular qualifications they have, whether the Minister feels they are the type of people who have a full understanding of local conditions, if they are people who have knowledge of situations in rural Ireland and outside the city of Dublin, who have knowledge of conditions other than in the west of Ireland because, if we are to site industries and utilise the State funds at our disposal to the best purpose, we have to deal with every class and section in the community. The Minister will agree, perhaps, that the majority of the directors of Foras Tionscal are civil servants. Am I right in that?

Mr. J. Lynch

There are five, of whom three are civil servants.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

That would be the majority. The chairman is a civil servant also. They are a statutory body; they have complete authority to decide all issues. I think I am right in that. If a parliamentarian such as I, or any other Deputy, wants to make representation at political level, he is precluded from doing so because the Minister has delegated to Foras Tionscal complete authority in these matters.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Dáil has.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I am speaking as one member of the Dáil. I am hoping that when this Bill goes through, it will not be another of those Bills that remove our functions from us because they are gradually being swept away. I should like to feel that the Minister would embody in this Bill an appeal to himself so that a Deputy or any citizen of the State who felt in a particular instance that Foras Tionscal were not acting in the best interests of the country would be in a position to raise the matter in Parliament and highlight the situation which he believed to be undesirable.

I had a case not so very long ago where I considered that quite an injustice was being done to an old-established firm in this country. I shall not disclose the facts now. The firm had its own particular trade and had been at it for generations. They were prepared to put up considerable sums of money. They wanted to get a State grant. They were precluded from doing so because there was a firm of the same type in Dublin which it was felt would be affected. That is a matter that could have been raised in Parliament but I was precluded from raising it. I was told, on making application to the Minister concerned—it was not the present Minister—that he had no function in the matter, that it was purely a matter for Foras Tionscal.

I should like to get away from that sort of thing and to feel that Parliament is still sovereign and that Deputies still have the right, when they want to make representations on behalf of industries and the siting of industries and grants and loans for industries, to do so in Dáil Éireann. The only opportunity we get of highlighting situations such as that is when a Bill comes before us. If I ask a Parliamentary Question relating to some instance where I think things are not being done as they should be, I am told by the Minister that he has no function in the matter, that it is a matter for Foras Tionscal. I am sure the Minister would be the first to agree that if I were to pose Parliamentary Questions to him on the subject of particular industries, that is the answer I would get, or else that it was a matter for the industry concerned and that he had no function in relation to it.

I have raised these matters because we are introducing legislation here for the purpose of allowing considerable sums of money to be made available, which to a large extent is State money. The Minister referred to £1,000 per worker as being the amount of money available. I should like to agree with that straight away. That is quite a good idea. It is a safeguard against the establishment of industries on which large sums of money are expended, which will not have the labour potential that is so desirable. But, how does the Minister reconcile that fact with the Bill which was before us last week in relation to nitrogenous fertiliser? The sum of money involved there—every shilling of which is State money—is far in excess of £1,000 per worker. I do not know what the ratio is. The Minister did not state it. An outside organisation that had studied the matter carefully and that has economic advisers at its disposal, computed the figure at as high as nearly £20,000 per worker.

That brings me back to the point that all State money should be safeguarded and that there should be complete equation as between all types of national expenditure or, shall we say, expenditure out of public funds.

I welcome the provision in the Bill for re-equipment of factories. There has been a difficulty so far. When trying to induce foreigners to participate in our industrial revival one finds it is very easy to get a German, French, Italian, Continental, British or even American firm interested in industry here provided it is a new industry and had the benefits of the factory being built and grants being made available. That was a completely anomalous position vis-à-vis the position of the already established factories where it was almost impossible to secure any assistance from the State other than something in the line of technical assistance.

This is a new form of legislation which did not exist before and it will be of tremendous benefit to the country. With regard to the re-equipment loans, could the Minister indicate the percentage rate on the re-equipment loans, whether they are on the full commercial rates of interest or whether firms that have justified their existence and have shown themselves to be able to manufacture and to export will get slightly more liberal terms than the ordinary somewhat high rate for loans that prevails to-day? I think the rate today is in the neighbourhood of 6 per cent.

Mr. J. Lynch

They will be free of interest for seven years.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

These are the loans for re-equipment?

Mr. J. Lynch

As recommended by the Committee on Industrial Organisation.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

If they are repaid within the seven years, there is no rate of interest at all?

Mr. J. Lynch

Quite so.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

After seven years, the interest then accrues at the ordinary commercial rate?

Mr. J. Lynch

That will be a matter for the Industrial Credit Company.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

There is another thing that is missing from the Bill which, perhaps, the Minister might consider embodying in it.

Deputy Byrne referred to the fact that industries had to be completely competitive and his argument was that it would be better if they were sited in bigger centres so that they could be up to date and competitive in every way. That is all right from one angle but our purpose in legislating here this evening is to try to give widely disseminated employment. To do that, as I stressed in my opening remarks, it is desirable to have these rural industries scattered about even in small places. I would even go into the smaller villages, or, anyhow, the small towns, and ensure that the surplus workers will not have to emigrate but will be employed in industry.

An easy way to get over Deputy Byrne's difficulty about being competitive would be for firms manufacturing the same products to combine. If Foras Tionscal were prepared to give grants to start smaller processing firms in different parts of the country—such as has been started in Deputy P. O'Donnell's constituency by a priest in Glencolumbkille, although he had to go to America to collect the money because the State would not give it— and if you had many such small industries, their co-ordination for the purpose of exporting would be very desirable. Even apart from the small industries, that is desirable for the bigger type of industry.

We are facing a free trade area of some sort, whatever comes out of the political morass that exists at present in Europe and in other places. It is desirable that firms should co-ordinate as much as possible and is the Minister prepared to embody in these Bills, if they are not already embodied, grants or loans for firms which are prepared to co-ordinate for exporting? That is the only chance these firms will have of being competitive against bigger firms.

I do not believe in mass firms. That, you might say, is almost the communisation of firms. I am a very strong supporter of private enterprise. I believe any small concern which is run by private individuals deserves all the encouragement it can get, but if it is to hold sway in this modern life, it is absolutely necessary for it to have the support of its sister and brother firms. The Minister could embody some assistance in that respect in some form of legislation. Perhaps it was never more important than it is today because, as I say, we are facing free trade of some sort and of a wider variety in the very near future.

One other thing that strikes me is that on many occasions on my travels I have tried to interest people to come to my constituency, or at least to Ireland, to start an industry. I am always asked: "What facilities have you got in the town in question?" They always ask about water, light and transport and so on but in the final analysis they always come back to the question of housing. The Minister mentioned in his opening statement that bridges and roads were being constructed, I wonder if there is anything in this legislation dealing with the housing question because I am absolutely sure that the local authorities are not going to do it. There is a town in my constituency——

Mr. J. Lynch

If the Deputy read the Bill instead of my speech——

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I could not understand the Bill. I am not intelligent enough with things like that and I had to rely on the Minister's speech. Does the Minister assure me that it is possible to get funds for houses?

Mr. J. Lynch

In both Bills— Section 6.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

In which Bill? There are two.

Mr. J. Lynch

In Section 6 of the Industrial Grants Bill and in the original Undeveloped Areas Act.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

It says "etcetera". I do not think it says "housing".

Mr. J. Lynch

It is Section 6 (1) (b).

Sir Anthony Esmonde

Thank you very much. I am very glad to see that. I have nothing more to say.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I am rather disappointed with these Bills, for this reason, that we now appear to abandon all hope of establishing industries in the undeveloped areas as defined. This, in my opinion, is the deathknell of the undeveloped areas and let us remember that the undeveloped areas comprise the Gaeltacht, the Breac-Ghaeltacht and the congested areas. Now we are going to extend to the remainder of the State practically the same facilities as were given to projects in the undeveloped areas prior to this. Let us, first of all, consider the title of the original Bill. It was known as the Undeveloped Areas Act. In other words, we admitted there was an undeveloped area and an Act was introduced to enable prospective industrialists to go in there and establish industries, and to assist them in establishing industries and to give employment to the residents in the undeveloped area. Grants and facilities were made available to these prospective industrialists. I do not think we can safely say at this stage that the undeveloped areas no longer remain undeveloped. I think we are all in agreement that there are still undeveloped areas. The areas as defined in the original Act are still undeveloped but they will become less undeveloped after these Acts have been passed.

Mr. J. Lynch

I hope so.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Minister hopes so? Well, I am disappointed.

Mr. J. Lynch

Less undeveloped, yes.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Less developed; I said less developed.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy said "less undeveloped"; that is why I agreed with him.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I apologise if I said that. I am glad the Minister corrected me because I would not like it to go on the record but certainly they will become less developed after these Bills have been enacted. There is not the slightest doubt about that.

We all know that these areas as defined in the original Act were areas to which no industrialist wished to go, areas in the poorer parts of rural Ireland, the west, the north-west and the south-west. In other words, they were the areas west of the Shannon, the areas, remember, to which Cromwell once assigned the people of Ireland and unfortunately the people of Ireland clung to these areas. A serious effort was made to develop these areas and to provide industries in them but now evidently we are throwing our hats at them. The next thing we will find is that they will be on a par with the rest of Ireland.

As a result of lack of development in those areas, there is a great drain on population by way of emigration and migration. Not only are the Government going to do less for them in the future but, in my opinion, are going to do them considerably more harm if the forecast of the Minister for Lands is correct when he says that he is going to take from migrants and emigrants who no longer work them, their own farms and distribute them among the congests. That is a bad thing.

The undeveloped areas are the cradle of the language and if we are ever to revive the language as the spoken tongue, it will only be by developing industries in those areas and retaining the people in them. As it is, native speakers are fast flowing away from these localities.

I think the Minister was stampeded into introducing these Bills in the erroneous belief that we were about to enter the Common Market and that he might attract more industrialists to other parts of Ireland than were prepared to go to the congested areas of the west and north-west. Far be it from me to anticipate the decision of the Government but perhaps they will wish to review the situation after today's occurrence in Brussels. Perhaps we may wait for some time for the Committee Stage of this Bill until we see what the future outlook on industrialisation here is. That may be difficult to forecast. I think this is a Bill in preparation for a breakdown of the paper tariff walls which have been built around our mushroom industries in the past. It is a preparation for our entry into some free trade association and we should know into what association we are going before we rush through Bills such as this.

If anything, we should concentrate on giving higher grants to industrialists who would wish to come into these undeveloped areas. It is strange that when the Undeveloped Areas Act was introduced, it singled out certain parts of the country, not just by chance but after careful study of the economic, financial and population status of the different areas and it said these are undeveloped areas in which industries could and should be set up and encouragement given to people to go there. It was a very good Act and some very fine industries were set up in the undeveloped areas as a result of it which would never have been set up there but for the encouragement and enticement held out by it. Once you put the rest of the country almost on a par with the undeveloped areas, you will leave those areas as they are now and they will never become more developed than they are to-day.

These Bills are premature. We should first wait and see what the future holds for this country, see if we can develop undeveloped areas more than we have done. If we have money to spare or spend, for God's sake, let us spend it to the credit of the native tongue and the Gaeltacht and the undeveloped areas before extending these facilities to the remainder of the country.

Mr. M. P. Murphy

When I heard of the introduction of these Bills, I thought it was a rather inopportune time for the Minister to bring forward legislation concerning industrial development. We know that Britain and Ireland are trying to get into the Common Market and the outcome of the negotiations could not be foreseen in the past few weeks. Possibly a clearer light has been thrown on the issue to-day. I thought that with the changes that our entry to EEC might bring about, it would be advisable for the Minister to hold over any Bills dealing with industrial development until we were definite as to whether or not our application for membership of the Common Market is likely to succeed. Undoubtedly, such an event would have a very big effect on our industrial development.

It is more than 11 years since the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who was then Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, introduced the Undeveloped Areas Act. He made a lengthy statement on what he thought that Act would bring about. He foresaw then that the face of the undeveloped areas would be changed within a reasonably short period, within, I am sure, the eleven years that have now elapsed, and that so many industries would spring up in those areas that full employment would be achieved there and the need for emigration could be completely wiped out.

In fact, very few changes have taken place and they are confined to a limited number of areas. The West Cork Deputies were persistently agitating for more consideration for their constituency in which there were some areas undoubtedly the most underdeveloped in the country. While we are thankful for the few industries we have got in the past few years, it is very little compensation when one looks at the expenditure under the Act since it was introduced.

There is mention now of grants not exceeding £500,000 and £250,000. I think if we encouraged smaller industries in the undeveloped areas, catering perhaps for not more than 40 or 50 workers and requiring only small capital and if these were based on a solid foundation and deemed economic, it would be a better way of meeting the situation than waiting for a big foreign industrialist to come along to initiate a project involving a capital expenditure of, perhaps, £1,000,000.

I am sure the Minister and the House are disappointed so far as foreign industrialists are concerned. Some years ago, it was thought that while Irish people might not take much action, we would have a number of foreigners coming in, particularly from West Germany and the US and, to a lesser extent, from Britain, to establish industries here and solve all our problems. The number who have come has not measured up to our expectations. They are few and far between. In the past 12 or 18 months, the prospects of getting these industrialists to come here to establish industries were, I think, on the decline.

The previous speaker said this Bill is bound to have an adverse effect on the undeveloped areas. That is obvious. When the Minister introduced the Undeveloped Areas Act in 1951 it was specifically to attract industrialists to those areas with a view to providing much needed employment. The Minister is now twisting the other way. Under the Industrial Grants (Amendment) Bill he is giving grants which are almost as attractive as the grants under the Undeveloped Areas Act. If we do succeed in getting foreigners to establish industries here in the future, it is unlikely they will set them up in the more remote parts such as the seaboard of Donegal, Galway, Mayo, Kerry or West Cork when the concessions given by the State are almost as good in the more favoured parts of the country.

That being so, it is little use for the undeveloped areas to be looking forward to the establishment of industry by foreigners. Having regard to the many statements made in the past, particularly those by the Minister, about the disadvantages of life in the undeveloped areas and seeing it is unlikely that we can attract foreigners there, could we not do something ourselves? Could we not devise some suitable projects and establish them in the undeveloped areas just as well as any gentleman coming from West Germany, Britain or the United States? We have embassies in all those countries. We have a whole-time special agent in West Germany. I do not know if we have a second one there. He is searching for suitable industrialists to establish subsidiary companies here.

What about having a co-ordination of the different Departments of State dealing with the undeveloped areas? What about having the heads of Civil Service Departments devising schemes to establish industries in suitable locations in the undeveloped areas, industries established by Irishmen for Irishmen, instead of waiting for the strangers to come and do it? Anyone who has read " Aesop's Fables " knows the position of the man who waited for the stranger to come and do his work. It was not done. The same thing can be said of developments in the undeveloped areas. If we are to wait for the British, the Americans and the West Germans to establish industries and brighten the lives of the people living in those areas, I am afraid we will have a long wait. A few places may be fortunate but, generally speaking, within the next 20 years I cannot see the problem solved to any appreciable extent if we are waiting for outside bodies. We have here employment giving bodies such as the Department of Local Government, the Office of Public Works and the Department of Industry and Commerce. Furthermore, the Department of Social Welfare has big obligations in such areas in regard to the payment of benefits of one kind or another to those unemployed. That is essential so long as people are unemployed in those areas.

It would be much better if the money so paid out were channelled into some kind of industrial project. Instead of unemployment benefit being paid in a particular area, some industry could be established. This would be more welcome to the workers than going along to the employment exchange every Tuesday and Wednesday and signing for unemployment assistance or benefit. The money expended on such benefits is of such a size that it would go a long way towards meeting the cost of industrial projects in some places. The trouble is to find an industry that would be soundly based, likely to continue and prove an economic proposition. But have we not a plentiful supply of highly-paid senior officials in the various Departments who have the knowledge and technical capabilities of devising schemes for suitable industries to meet the needs of these areas? Surely we could have a coordinating committee from the Minister's own Department or from such bodies as An Foras Tionscal or other kindred organisations to develop suitable schemes for different localities? Until we do that, the outlook for the undeveloped areas will not be very bright.

I think the best service I can do the undeveloped areas is to appeal to the Minister to forget about foreign industrialists for a while and to think more in terms of providing sound industries established by our own people. There need not be much delay. The position so far as our commitments with foreign countries are concerned is relatively clear. We must continue planning for the future.

In the Minister's Department, no notice is taken of the principal industry in this country, the agricultural industry. Earlier this evening, the Minister stated he would be prepared to give a grant of £1,000 for every man employed. The Minister, on page 7 of his statement, says he is prepared to give a grant, apart altogether from the amount put up by the industrialist concerned, of £1,000 to any firm that will be able to create employment for even one worker. We have in the rural parts of this country—and I would say that the undeveloped areas could be said to compose the rural part of Ireland—several people capable of managing land who at the moment have not got any land to manage. If they had such an outlet for their produce as vegetable processing factories, they and their families could make decent livelihoods. Particularly in the midlands, in fact throughout the country, we have land which is not being utilised by the owners and the unfortunate thing about it is that it is the best land that is not being utilised.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not enter into a discussion on land under this Bill. This Bill relates to industrial production and the Deputy is embarking on a dissertation on land and its quality.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

I am sure you will agree, Sir, that agriculture is termed an industry in this country. You will also be aware that I made a case earlier that there is no co-ordination between the different Departments. The Minister for Industry and Commerce will talk about industry but will have not a word to say on agriculture, while the Minister for Agriculture will talk at length on agriculture but will not say a word on industry. You must join the two together. If we had a little more co-ordination between Deputy J. Lynch and Deputy Smith, we would do better. The day is gone when Ministers can think just of their own respective Departments. They must now realise that the work of their Departments must be co-ordinated, that they all affect one another.

We should have more co-operation and more planning from the top. We should have more discussion between the heads of the various Departments. If we had, possibly we would be able to promote more employment not alone in industry but in agriculture as well. It is quite evident that while all Parties in the House have welcomed foreign industrialists as being helpful in the promotion of employment, at the same time it could be said that every foreigner who has come in and who may in the future come in is interested in making a profit. He came because he thought he would get a good business deal here.

How is it that if we have not got sufficient technical know-how as far as certain industries are concerned we cannot import some experts with such knowledge? Surely we should be able to get from other countries people with technical know-how on projects which our own advisers think are feasible and suitable for the undeveloped areas or any other part of the country. Surely the State could put up the money necessary to provide us with such knowledge, or a proportion of it. I have no doubt you would get a reasonable response from the people in the country for their share of such expenditure. In Rosscarbery some years ago when there was hope of establishing a little industry in the locality, the people very quickly put up over £4,000, with an assurance that as much more would be forthcoming, if necessary. When you have that spirit in a small place like that, it is evident the people of the country as a whole are desirous of helping themselves. They deserve help from the Minister in turn.

I notice that in the eleven years since its passing, £3,083,079 has been paid out under this Act and I understand the amount of the grants approved up to the end of last year amounted to £6,128,859. This shows that the industrial grants are catching up with grants under the Undeveloped Areas Act, even though the former are of much more recent origin. The amount of industrial grants approved is about £4,500,000. I am sure that when the present Minister spoke here in 1951 he never thought that by the end of January, 1963, the Exchequer would be called on to such an extent.

It has come to our notice from time to time that some of the projects established throughout the country have not measured up to early expectations. Before an industry is established, before the State decide to back it, there should be a minute scrutiny of the credentials of those promoting it to ascertain whether they are likely to continue to stand on their own feet, because the most unsettling thing that could happen in an area is to have a factory established this year and have it closing down in 1965 or 1966. Therefore, I am in entire agreement with the rigid measures adopted by Foras Tionscal and the Department in screening all such applications as closely as possible. It is no use handing out money to people if there is nothing to show for it.

I shall conclude by asking the Minister to point out to the Government that we have failed to solve the problems of our undeveloped areas through the 1951 Bill, since amended. The outlook there is not so bright and I believe that between them, the Departments of Industry and Commerce and Agriculture could establish a coordinating committee so as to provide all the technical advice necessary to solve the problems of the undeveloped areas. I appeal to the Minister, then, to examine the position in that light and to try to get the Government to do something in that direction. Surely it is likely to be more effective than waiting for other people to do our job? Therefore, I am asking the Minister, having introduced his Bill, which to a big extent weighs against the undeveloped areas, to think of the other method I advocated for developing them.

Mr. Barron

While we all welcome any move on the part of the Government to industrialise the country, and thereby stem emigration, the Minister should realise that the present method of industrialising the country is not correct. There should be comprehensive planning. So far, planning has been haphazard to a certain extent. If Irish money is spent on industrial firms which come into this country, then the Minister should be in a position to site the industry. I understand he is not. I understand that they can site the industry in any place they like. That is not correct.

The Minister should be in a position to ensure that any person who comes into this country to start an industry will site it where he thinks it desirable to do so. The siting of an industry is very important in this country to keep the population in the different areas. Deputy P. O'Donnell referred to the Gaeltacht areas and to the undeveloped areas along the western seaboard, and so on. Everything should be done to establish industry in those places. I believe that industrialists as a whole do not want to go to the western areas. Therefore, it is the duty of the Government to build whatever factory they decide to have in a certain area. It is necessary to have greater co-operation between the Minister for Lands and the Gaeltacht and the Minister for Industry and Commerce so as to have any industry which would be suited to an area located in it.

The Government should build the factory, furnish it and put in a representative of the Department to see that everything is carried out properly. That is essential. After all, if the Irish people are to do the work, it is to the advantage of the Government—from the point of view of taxation—and it is to our advantage also that things are done in that way. What is wrong with the ESB, Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann and Bord na Móna? Why can we not have such industries in the undeveloped areas? I hope the Minister will consider that point.

We do not want to have the eastern part of this country over-populated, if you like to put it that way. We do not want great big cities in this small country and other places like the deserts of Africa. I do not wish to delay the House or the Minister but I hope he will consider the points I have made.

Mr. T. Lynch

This Bill is another retreat by the Government and another confession of failure. I happened to be over in the west of Ireland and I saw some of the factories which were built and which never had a chance. They were built merely for the sake of building a factory. It is one of these expensive lessons that the Government have to learn.

Mr. J. Lynch

Name one.

Mr. T. Lynch

Portumna.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is one, yes. The industry has been replaced.

Mr. T. Lynch

How many people are working in it? Then there is that wonderful fish factory in Killybegs.

Mr. J. Lynch

That is operating.

Mr. T. Lynch

It is—but at how much of a loss? The Government had to buy it back.

Mr. Brennan

They bought it back and it is going, too.

Mr. T. Lynch

Yes, all you want to do now is to get some fish to put into it.

Mr. J. Lynch

Carry on.

Mr. T. Lynch

I shall. The Deputy was looking at what this Bill will do for his constituency and constituencies nearby. I happened to be in Wexford on other business. I had hoped to meet Deputy Esmonde and Deputy Corish that night. I was told I could not meet them because a meeting was being held in Wexford in connection with an industrialist who had come into Wexford and they hoped that, with the help of some Wexford people, an industry would be started there. I thought that was very good. However, in the course of conversation with them some weeks later, they told me that the industrialist had come to Dublin and they had not heard from him after that. Then he appeared somewhere in the western region. He was to put up the industry and then, when he made up his costings, and so on, he just packed up and went out. This has been weighted against us all the time in the east as if we had no unemployment problem, as if the people in the eastern counties were like the people of the Pale and should have no concessions or receive no help from the Government and as if there should be no encouragement to people to erect factories in places where they should be erected.

It appeared to me that the worst thing one could do in the eastern counties was to make a good case for a factory, even with promotion and everything else behind it. If a good case were made, and it was mentioned that it would be a good idea to start a certain type of industry or type of manufacture in an eastern county or near an eastern town or city, the next thing one would hear about it would be that the promoters were packing up and were being brought across the Shannon. I am glad we are on level terms at last.

I have no bouquets to throw at the Department of Industry and Commerce so far as my constituency is concerned. I have no bouquets to throw at the Department of Industry and Commerce as far as their policy all down through the years is concerned. It never had the support of the CIO which tells us that industry must be decentralised in Ireland. The policy all the time seemed to be that Dublin got a great preference over all, over the west, over the east and over the south. I have not the figures by me now but I shall have them tomorrow. A question had to be put down to the Minister for Industry and Commerce to find out how many industries were established over a period——

Mr. J. Brennan

The Deputy will get inspiration when he sleeps.

Mr. T. Lynch

I shall get it, all right. It will be burned on my heart when I am dead. I saw on the Waterford papers that 4,000 people bought single tickets at Waterford station. There was no talk of people emigrating from Waterford.

Mr. J. Brennan

Maybe it was for a holiday. Maybe they were going to Dublin.

Mr. T. Lynch

They are taking them out now in the North Alley. It took them a long time to get to them.

Mr. J. Lynch

The Deputy should come to the Bill.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 30th January, 1963.