Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jan 1963

Vol. 199 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 13—An Comhairle Ealaíon.

The Taoiseach

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charges which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1963, for a Grant (Grant-in-Aid) to An Comhairle Ealaíon (No. 9 of 1951).

Deputies are aware that the provision for An Comhairle Ealaíon was increased in 1961 by 50 per cent. to £30,000 and remained at that level during the present financial year. The term of office of the Council came to an end during the year and the present Council was then appointed as provided by the Act, that is to say, six members were appointed by the Government and five further members Co-opted by them.

The Dáil will have learned with regret of the decision of Sir Chester Beatty to resign his membership in order to lighten his burden of work. The Government had no option but to accept his resignation. I am sure, however, I speak for every member of the Dáil when I say it is recognised that the nation owes an immense debt of gratitude to Sir Chester for his exceedingly generous benefactions. I wish we had some more permanent method of showing it than by words. Perhaps some day we will have. In the meantime, we can do nothing more than express our thanks and express the hope that he will enjoy many more years of useful activity.

The vacancy amongst the appointed members of An Comhairle Ealaíon caused by Sir Chester's resignation was filled by the appointment of Mr. John Hunt, M.A., who is perhaps well known to members of the House as the curator at Bunratty.

I presume it is not necessary for me to recount the activities of the Board during the year as they are set out in very great detail in their published report. I mentioned in previous years that I had set up an interdepartmental committee to consider the whole question of the scope and control of all the cultural activities financed from public funds. That committee has not yet submitted its main report, but I am told that they hope to find it possible to do so during the coming year. Arising out of its consideration, some more specific proposals may be formulated to the Dáil.

Mr. J.A. Costello

I should like to associate myself with the words the Taoiseach has just announced in connection with the resignation of Sir Chester Beatty and to express my complete concurrence in the tribute he has paid to Sir Chester. I had the privilege of being in an official position when Sir Chester made the magnificent contribution he made to our National Gallery of the priceless pictures which now grace the Gallery and which are an effective lure to all art-lovers coming to this country and generally to those people who are interested in art and come here visiting the country as tourists or otherwise.

Sir Chester Beatty's liberality was unbounded. His example to the rest of the country was something we would hope would be equalled if not emulated, by those in a position to give gifts to the nation. I have on many occasions, both in this House and outside it, expressed my disappointment that many of our citizens, who perhaps would be in a financial position to make donations to artistic objects and towards the advancement of our cultural objectives, have not so far done so. There is some little sign at the moment of an opening up in that direction and I hope these few remarks on the subject of Sir Chester Beatty will further encourage people who are able to do it to endow our galleries or our universities with funds for the advancement of the arts and for general cultural objectives.

As far as the general Estimate is concerned, I should like to express my own personal appreciation of the efforts of the Arts Council during the year under review. Under the direction of the present Director, very great progress has been made. The review in their report shows they are active. Although one may criticise some parts of it, on the whole, they are active in the proper ways—certainly in the ways that appeal to me.

On the last occasion I spoke on this Estimate, I asked the Taoiseach why it was that the Government had not opened their purse strings a little more to the Arts Council. He gave me the rather surprising reply that the Arts Council had not asked for any more. I thought that perhaps the question I put to the Taoiseach and the answer I got would have encouraged the Arts Council during the year we are discussing at the moment to make a tentative request for a little more money. I do not know whether they have done so or not, or whether they are still giving the Taoiseach what I believe is the false impression that they are quite satisfied with the amount of money they have, including the addition he gave them since he came into office.

I think it would be money well spent to give them more. They are hampered in their activities. When we find a good Arts Council under very good directors doing an excellent job, it would be good business not merely for the objectives imposed upon them by the statute but for the country as a whole.

I should like to ask the Taoiseach one important question on a matter that it not very vital before I move on to make a few observations on the Arts Council in general. In January, 1963, we have now the report of the Arts Council for 1961-62 in stencil. I do not know what the reason for it is, but there seems to be some unnecessary delay in the production of the Arts Council report, for not only do we get it nearly a year after the end of the period which it covers but the report is merely in stencil and not in the proper format. It is something which I think requires some explanation. What is the cause of the delay? It is not a very important matter but it is of some importance from the point of view of people interested in our activities, particularly in connection with their views as to the scope and duties of the Arts Council.

As I have said, it is a matter minor in its own way but of some importance. It looks sloppy; it looks inefficient; and it is certainly not any great credit that nearly ten months after the end of the year with which the report deals, we get, and I believe not very easily, a stencilled copy of the report. It is a matter I should like the Taoiseach to consider to see what can be done about it.

The Arts Council have done very good work in the past 12 months, but I should like to express my personal regret that they have been hampered and hindered in their statutory objectives and duties. Perhaps I am overstating or exaggerating the position when I say they have been hampered, but one of the statutory duties imposed on the Council by the Arts Act of 1951 was to stimulate an interest in design in industry, the fine arts and applied arts generally. We all know, or perhaps many of us have forgotten, the report of the experts from Scandinavian countries on our industries and our industrial design in this country. It is a very provocative report and a very good one. I should have thought that as part of their statutory objectives and duties, it would have been the aim of the Arts Council to see something was done, following that report.

I have expressed views here on several occasions on the subject of the application of art to industry and particularly to design in industry. It is a matter that has been very close to my heart and one that the late Dr. Bodkin, in his report to the Government, stressed very much. Deputies who have listened to me before on this subject may perhaps tire of it, but they will realise the importance of the application of design to industry and of the practical application of art to industry.

In this matter, I am not dealing with something which is high in the cultural atmosphere. I am dealing with something which is of very practical importance and, in my submission here, of even more vital importance in the conditions in which we find ourselves now. I hope, therefore, Deputies will excuse me if I repeat very shortly what I said on other occasions. I think the Taoiseach will agree with me it is of vital importance to this country that we should expand our export trade to the utmost. There is no doubt that Irish industrialists, Irish manufacturers, will not sell their goods abroad merely because they are Irish. You will get no purchaser, even in our best market from the point of view of sentimentality—the USA—to take goods, unless they are good value.

You will get no foreigner to buy Irish goods, unless they are not merely good value but distinctive in design, and what I have urged here as a matter of purely practical politics was that we should get into this country the best designers available and give them the biggest salaries, not merely as good as we can afford but as good as they demand. We should get these experts to advise our industrialists and insist on our industrialists accepting their advice and acting on it, because I have the impression that many of our industrialists dealing in goods in the categories of crafts and arts, goods where design is of the utmost importance, are quite satisfied and smug about the position in the home market.

As I have said, you will not get Irish goods sold unless they are of distinctive quality and design and of artistic character. It would not be proper for me to concentrate too much on any particular manufacturer. Some of them have succeeded and some of them nearly succeeded. I have already stated my experience, and I am sure the Taoiseach saw the same thing, in New York. In a big store, there is a man in charge who is very favourably disposed to this country. He has Irish goods displayed in that store in Fifth Avenue, but nothing will go on his table unless it is of first-class quality and design.

That is the headline we have to teach to our industrialists. We have a serious situation here at the moment in regard to external markets and if we are to compete, we must have experts and we must have our goods manufactured in such a way that our markets will keep expanding so as to have an expanding economy. We cannot have that if we are to be satisfied with the commonplace. We must not merely get away from the commonplace, we must pass away from the good and go into the realm where we can compete favourably with such things as Belleek glass and china in France and other European countries. We cannot beat those by smugness and self-satisfaction, with the position in Europe as it is at the moment.

I accordingly urge on the Taoiseach to use all resolution to stimulate in our manufacturers and our industrialists an interest not merely in art and the application of art to industry but in the vital necessity to get the best possible advice from anywhere it can be got and at the highest price necessary, because our goods must be not merely good but better than the best in European countries. I have always believed we have great scope in that field. I have preached that for years, even in the time when I was a voice crying in the wilderness, when the only other voice raised in this connection was that of Dr. Bodkin.

When I was in Government, I got the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Norton, to try to get the officers of his Department to arrange a meeting of industrialists and impress on them the necessity of seeing what had to be done if we were to get an export trade and if we were to beat our competitors in Holland, France, Italy and other countries where manufacturers have artistic training.

That was the position some years ago. I do not know what the position is now. Since that time we have had the report of the Northern European experts. I understand functions in connection with that have been taken away from the Arts Council and given to the Department of Education, but the Taoiseach can correct me if I am wrong. I should like to know what progress has been made. At the risk of repetition, and I am speaking with all sincerity on a topic which I have been preaching for many years, it is absolutely essential for this country to get out of the commonplace, to get away from the best or the excellent, to get into the best of the best, unless we are to waive any hope of meeting serious competition which we have always had to meet and which will be more and more keen in the future, having regard to recent developments. That is really the particular matter I want to mention in connection with this Estimate.

I notice occasionally that the Arts Council appear in print expressing their views. While I am a firm believer in this, I have in no circumstances and no matter what the provocation, written a letter to the newspapers. Nevertheless, I commend most of their activities in that connection. It is one of the ways in which they can stimulate public interest and get public opinion to bear upon something that has been done contrary to the best interests of the country from the point of view of our cultural life.

There is one matter on which I should like assurance from the Taoiseach. Of course, the Arts Council are in a sense a Government institution in that they are set up and developed and, to a large extent, dominated by the Government. The directors are appointed by the President, on the advice of the Government: five members are appointed directly by the Government and then the nomination of the other six is by the Arts Council themselves. It might be said that they are a sort of Government institution and that, therefore, they should not criticise anything in connection with Government activities. I would hope that the Taoiseach, as the Minister responsible for the Arts Council to the Dáil, would see that the Arts Council have the fullest freedom to express their views and their opinions, even if they want to express views or opinions on activities in relation to the duties imposed on the Council by the Government and even though the views are directed towards Government activities or Government Departments' activities.

I will take an example, if I may, and this is merely an example, and not any particular grievance or matter of criticism of the Post Office. Supposing the Arts Council were not, as they ought to be, consulted by the Post Office when a new stamp is being issued. The Arts Council should have the fullest freedom to criticise that stamp, even though it emanates from a Government Department. I should like the Taoiseach to give an assurance on that point, that their liberty of criticism and their liberty of expressing their views will be completely uncontrolled by him or his Department or any other Department, which may be the source from which some of the members hold their appointment. There is also the point that in a sense the Arts Council depend on Government subsidies as a Government Department.

I think the Arts Council have stimulated interest in many ways which in the period under review commend themselves to me and should commend themselves to the House. I notice they have helped in some little way an interest in art by school children. There are some indications that they have given grants to some of these bodies interested in bringing an appreciation of art, the teaching and a proper approach to art, to schoolchildren. They have apparently given grants to buy sets of prints for the purpose of a picture circulating scheme for technical, secondary and primary schools throughout Ireland.

That is only a small item in their report but it does enable me to urge upon them, through the Taoiseach, the necessity for seeing, if possible, that pressure is brought to bear on secondary schools of all kinds and all denominations to see that the children in these schools are taught an appreciation of art, the way to approach art and thereby allow for cultural activities in the visual arts and all other categories of that kind.

It is of great importance that our children should know and appreciate the art treasures we have here in this country. I commend the activities of the Director of the Municipal Gallery in connection with that because he has done good work in recent times in bringing schoolchildren to the Municipal Gallery and in giving them lectures on how to draw, thereby bringing them to a proper approach towards the appreciation of art, particularly the visual arts. I should like to see the Arts Council in their next report give an indication that they have taken more active steps than are shown in the present report to see that schoolchildren, in the secondary schools particularly, and possibly the younger children in the national schools, are brought periodically and systematically to art lectures, if possible, and certainly to see the pictures and get to know the pictures we have. In this country we have a unique collection of art works and we are very fortunate in our National Gallery and in our Municipal Gallery.

That leads me to this passing remark, that the Municipal Gallery appears to be losing its character and that the Arts Council, perhaps, according to one section of the present report, are doing what really the Municipal Gallery should be doing. They are doing good work. They have apparently started on a policy of buying pictures by modern Irish artists and exhibiting them in their own gallery. That is a very good purpose but the Municipal Gallery has got to the stage where it is nearly on a par with the National Gallery and has ceased to be what it originally was—the Municipal Gallery of Modern Art.

I see in the report that the Council co-operated with the College Gallery, Trinity College, Dublin in the purchase of original paintings by Irish artists. Would I be treading on academic corns if I say I hope to see in the next report of the Arts Council that they co-operated with University College, Dublin, or University College, Cork, or University College, Galway, in somewhat similar activities or other artistic efforts. I am not deviating from the strict rules of order in saying I would hope that the Arts Council would impress upon the authorities of these three colleges the necessity of having a lecturer, or a professor, or at least a part-time professor in art and the history of art. It would be a very good thing, not merely for our cultural life but also for the very practical purpose of interesting our students in the universities in art and the application of art to industry and design in industry.

May I conclude with one, perhaps, parochial point? A man from Cork was on the Arts Council. He resigned, or died—I forget which— and no Corkman was appointed in his place. That was a slip-up on the part of the Government which should be rectified at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. A. Barry

I wish to support Deputy J. A. Costello in everything he said. I was going to disagree with a little of what he said. The House could hardly conceive of any reason to refer the Vote back except on grounds of insufficiency. The Vote does acknowledge that there are other things outside bread and circuses. I do not think anything has given such enduring value, much more than is obvious at first glance, because what it does grows and sheds light through the future. It initiates and encourages desirable activities. Over the years, since this Arts Council was established, it has been a great enricher of the whole fabric of Irish life. Its results will, of necessity, be slow and Deputy J. A. Costello is, perhaps, too impatient. However, from my own knowledge, the only fault of the Arts Council at the moment is excessive modesty in public relations. I learned tonight from Deputy Costello's words that they are also modest in their demands. That is probably a good sign, although the job wants all they have got and perhaps a bit more.

They are certainly, as Deputy D. Costello mentioned, very modest in the way they publish their annual report. It could be done more attractively and circulated more widely. I should like to see every Deputy getting the annual report of the Arts Council from now on because I have spoken to a number of them today, and I was shocked to find that very few had read these reports. It contains some amazing facts. People should know what has been done and is being done on a veritable shoestring. For instance, the Macaulay Foundation came here because there was an organisation like the Arts Council which could be trusted to do what the beneficiaries intended.

There are certain other sources which might be inclined to follow that patriotic and enlightened lead. People do not know that there is a fellowship this year of £1,000 being given through that machinery to a young painter to proceed with his work. People do not know that there is a sum of £1,000 being made available for a musical composition this year. The existence of the Arts Council has made this kind of assistance, this practical and applied generosity, possible. The Council makes many other awards from their funds other than the Macaulay Fellowship Fund. However, this particular example shows what a well-designed organisation can help to have done, if it is there to administer such grants of money. I hope that the very generous Macaulay example will be followed.

The work of the Council is much wider than dealing with money or handing out money. We have all noticed in recent years that there is an atmosphere here in which critical discussion arises on many matters in this era, matters of design. We have the Fitzwilliam Street argument and the new concert hall, and we all know that there is a very rapidly growing public in the country at last, thank God, for fine music. Even matters like town planning and the tidy towns competition show the upsurge of interest in the graces of living. They have all been gently stimulated by the activity of the Arts Council since it was established.

Even the Church which has always been a notable repository of bad taste is on the move. We might see an end in our time to the hideous plaster statues and the distempered architecture. In fact, it seems quite possible that the work of the Irish artists in stone, metal or glass, and the work of forward architects in this country, may have a reasonably rich future. At any rate, there is an upward move in standards.

There is one particular example— and I think the majority of members will agree with me—and that is the monuments to the great men of our own time, particularly the local ones in towns and villages. The deceased leader is generally depicted on the memorial. There is evidence of great enthusiasm but very bad taste. That is a generalisation but it is reasonably accurate. The guidance of the Arts Council could be of great value here.

As Deputy J. Costello said, business men are becoming increasingly aware of the importance of good design. Whether we get into the European Community or not, this is very important. It will be of even greater importance if we do not. Occasionally industrial architecture here is quite good but less frequently our domestic architecture is good. Far too often our domestic architecture is drab and box-like and monotonous. Working-class houses should and could be better; suburban housing of the middle-class type is generally hideous, and it is not helped by my old enemies, the ESB, in what they do to the landscape.

There is a feeling abroad that things would want to be improved. It is a very tender plant, but it is growing, and this is due to the gentle activity of the Arts Council. The personnel are excellent. All the chairmen have been remarkably good men and the membership alone is of a reassuring calibre. I should like to join in the tribute paid to Sir Chester Beatty. He belonged to the renaissance and there is a patrician colouring to his activities. We are very fortunate in Ireland that he is with us. I believe it must be due to what the Arts Council have done, even though they have done it without any drum-thumping.

All the arts—what I would call the visual arts, music and the theatre— seem to be moving on. I notice an improvement in the local or domestic scene. In Cork, for instance, we can get an audience of practically 2,000 people at a symphony concert twice a year. That could not have happened 20 years ago. A young painter in Cork, a very promising young man, held an exhibition during the past few weeks. He sold all the canvases he exhibited. That could not have happened 20 years ago.

We have a ballet company in Cork, which is helped by the Arts Council. It was a desperate struggle to keep it going but it is being kept going. They have a growing audience and they do a remarkable thing: they tour the country and give performances in the small towns. None of us can ever measure the value of this. They even went to the Six Counties and had remarkable success there. All that was possible because of the Art Council's help. I think all those things are on the move and this is the time to encourage them.

I would certainly join with Deputy J. A. Costello in proposing to the Taoiseach that he should overcome the Art Council's modesty in spending money and encourage them to spend more money than they are spending. It is very heartening to read the report and I am impressed by many things in it. I am impressed particularly by their proposals to have art collections given to schools and even to hoteliers at half price. I think they should be fully publicised. It is a most valued service and I hope sculpture will be included. It is desirable to have sculpture as part of the interior and exterior decoration emphasised amongst the people who could use sculpture. Large organisations should use sculpture and architects should be encouraged to use sculpture in the buildings they set up. There are large firms, industrialists, who should realise the little more appearance which contemporary sculpture will give to the buildings they erect. Airports and such places should provide work for Irish sculptors and certainly the hotels could do so.

I have seen in a few hotels exhibitions of pictures at a very reasonable reduction in price with the help of the Arts Council. It is remarkable how foreigners talk about good contemporary Irish paintings. There is one hotel in South Kerry where I listened to a group of English people examining four or five pictures on the wall. They were extremely well done by a young Dublin girl. They said in my hearing: "You would not get that in any hotel in England"—and you would not, I think.

If the Arts Council could get this collection together which they mention in their report, we should make quite sure that it will be perambulated around the country. In the report they mention the very impressive exhibition of German church architecture which they arranged in Dublin and Cork last year. Thousands saw that exhibition. It was very remarkable and some of it was startling. We would never have seen it but for the Arts Council. It meant, of the many thousands of the public who saw it in Dublin and Cork, a great percentage began to see beauty—I am not talking about completely contemporary forms of decoration but the more interesting forms. The public will appreciate that and encourage young architects to proceed in those directions and not to be so afraid. That is one of the great values of the work being done by the Arts Council.

There is a list of the exhibitions, which have been sponsored and encouraged by the Arts Council, in their annual report, which is very remarkable. I think the public just do not know how much good this Council are doing. There are very many groups getting help from them and it is a matter for regret that the public do not pay more attention to undertakings they have supported. The list is very varied and very widespread covering every part of the country.

The actual arranging of these exhibitions by the Arts Council must influence the public taste. It might take a little time but it is time worth spending. It is like throwing stones into a pool and circles grow wider and wider. Our people have very considerable intelligence and have good taste instinctively. They have put up with the worst up to this because they have not seen better than the worst. I think from this on, with the help of the Arts Council and the State, the whole standard of taste should be raised. One thing which is very important, and which is not realised, is that advice may be obtained from the Arts Council and activities of all kinds can get guidance from them that would prevent many of the grievous things which have been done in this country with a great deal of enthusiasm but without any taste.

This is very important in relation to local monuments. Future generations could be saved many a shudder, if advice were sought now. I have in mind the national monument in Cork, erected as a result of a very large fund collected about the time of my birth. It was collected with very great enthusiasm all over the country and in America, too. The money was spent but the result was deplorable. One of the greatest regrets of my life is that when the Black and Tans were damaging things all over the country they did not do that monument in. It is a horrible monument on a splendid site but it is a source of intense pain to observers. If the Arts Council had been there then, they could have advised the people who were spending this very large sum of money. They would probably have advised them to have a look at some of the pieces which can be seen in Continental countries, particularly in France.

All I have said so far has been said to emphasise the benefits that flow from this kind of expenditure. You cannot measure the results. The climate is growing which will encourage the arts, the musician, the dramatist, the architect and, above all, the businessman to realise that the graces are as important as the utilities. We cannot, as a nation, do many things in a big way, but as an imaginative people, we can do those kind of things very well if we are given initial guidance and direction.

I consider every encouragement should be given to all to see that everything is done to raise our standards in such matters. That is the important thing. The Government did increase the Vote two years ago and I have already asked the Taoiseach to consider enlarging the activities of the Arts Council by enlarging their revenue. This would really be throwing our bread upon the waters. I think most other expenditure achieves less. This is the smallest Vote this House will have before it but it could easily be the richest in potential.

Mr. D. Costello

Sir, the fact must be faced that every civilised nation now subsidises the Arts. The days of the rich patrons are fast disappearing and, in their place, the public authorities have undertaken the responsibility, readily undertaken it, of assisting, by subsidies and other forms of encouragement, artistic development inside the State.

The Arts Council has been a means by which artistic development in our country has been assisted and encouraged and I believe the public would readily accept the suggestion that the State should be prepared to spend more than it is spending at the moment in giving assistance to the Arts. Other countries see fit, not merely for cultural but also for economic reasons, heavily to subsidise their cultural activities. Whilst this country does to a very limited extent help our native culture in all its aspects and our artists, the fact remains that we are still very backward in assisting cultural matters. It is of considerable importance that we should endeavour to improve public taste.

We endeavour to assist artists, many of whom need support in their activities, and I believe the Government would have the support not only of this House but of the country in general if, in the coming year, they saw fit to increase the moneys given to the Arts Council. Not a great deal is involved taken in absolute terms, or relatively to the annual payments undertaken by the State. This is an investment which, as Deputy Barry has said, returns a dividend in many directions.

There is, however, another aspect of the activities at the Governmental level and the level generally of the public authority to which I wish to refer. I stress the need for co-ordination in the assistance given to the Arts in this country. Any person who is involved in artistic development of one kind or another, who is engaged in the formation of local groups of a cultural nature, who is engaged in promoting festivals of one kind or another, knows the great difficulties involved. Those interested have to go to the local authority, to Bord Fáilte, to the Arts Council, and to any other place to which their ingenuity can bring them in order to get the necessary financial assistance to support their endeavours. Organisations like the Wexford and Waterford Festivals, and festivals in other parts of the country, spend a great deal of their time going from one body to another in search of the support they need so much. Ultimately that support all comes from the same source.

I think we should face facts. We should decide that the Arts Council should be the means by which all our cultural activities on the level of subvention from the State are canalised. Instead of Bord Fáilte giving grants and the Arts Council giving grants to the same organisation, the support generally for artistic endeavour should come through the Arts Council. That would, of course, mean giving a great deal more support to it but it would not in the ultimate, perhaps, mean that the overall figure would be greatly increased because, instead of coming from one Government Department or one State body, it would all come from the Arts Council.

The other matter to which I wish to refer is the need for a concert hall in this city. The Government's decision supporting the efforts made to have a concert hall in Dublin is to be welcomed. Here, again, the difficulty is encountered that the organisations must now try to discover if assistance can be obtained from the Dublin Corporation. It is a matter of considerable interest and concern for the citizens of Dublin that an adequate concert hall be erected. The Arts Council is the obvious means by which support could be given. Whilst the Government's decision is to be welcomed, even though it comes rather tardily perhaps, nonetheless it is, I think, the sort of case in which, if we had an Arts Council adequately supported and active in the way I have suggested it could be active, we would long since have achieved considerable progress.

It would be of interest to know how often the advice of the Arts Council is sought and accepted. The Report refers to the fact that it has made recommendations to various organisations, but one is left rather with the impression that this advice is, perhaps, not always taken. It would be of considerable help, I think, if public and private bodies were to consult the Arts Council in much greater measure and if its advice were taken much more frequently.

I agree thoroughly with the view that the Arts Council should not be afraid to speak up for itself and should not be afraid to criticise, if necessary, Government organisations or Government Departments where it thinks fit. One of the statutory obligations, indeed, might necessitate it doing so. Where its advice is not taken, its suggestions accepted on any given matter, I should like to see the reasons stated. In that way the organisation will be known and, if it has acted incorrectly, then its activities can be the subject of criticism. All we know at the moment is that various recommendations are made. Whether or not these recommendations have been accepted has been left unanswered. It would be an excellent development if the Arts Council were to become more frequently consulted by not only public authorities but private organisations as well.

One final aspect to which I wish to refer is the statement made some time ago that some of our cultural activities, like the Wexford Festival, would have to become self-supporting in a certain number of years. The House must face the fact that these festivals cannot become self-supporting if they wish to attain the international standards which they should attain. In Dublin, we have many cultural activities which have to be supported out of public funds. Throughout the country most laudable efforts are being made by local committees and organisations to run festivals. If the standards which have to be maintained nowadays are to be reached, we must face the fact that these festivals cannot hope to operate on a business basis and either show a profit or, at least, break even. That being so, I think it is wrong for us to approach the future activities in this field on the basis that these festivals will have to become self-supporting within a given period. Recent experience indicates that when prices are raised above a certain level the public are not able to meet the prices. It seems to me, therefore, that we simply must ensure that these festivals are maintained because of the tremendous amount of good they do the country, not just economically but in many other ways as well. They must be maintained, I assert, by means of subventions, and these subventions must come from the Government.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 31st January, 1963.