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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Feb 1963

Vol. 199 No. 7

Adjournment Motion: EEC Negotiations.

I move: "That the Dáil do now adjourn."

In my statement in the Dáil last week, about the situation which has arisen as a result of the suspension of negotiations between Britain and the Six, I said that, while desirous of facilitating a general discussion in the Dáil on the situation, I did not anticipate that the position could by now have become clarified to an extent which would make it possible, or wise, to take firm decisions as to the course we should follow in the sphere of the country's external economic relations. It is not yet possible to give precise answers to some of the questions raised last week by Deputies. Nevertheless, a useful purpose may be served by an interim discussion, based on such information as is available, to inform the Dáil on the various possibilities which may present themselves as the situation clarifies, and on the guiding principles by which, in the Government's view, national policy should be inspired. I propose also to refer briefly to the sequence of events over the past year and a half, terminating in the present impasse, and, while I intend to confine my statement to the important aspects, it cannot be very brief.

There is no doubt that, as a clearer picture emerges, we will be faced with a need to take decisions of major importance. It would, however, be naive to think we can arrange conditions in international trade to suit ourselves, or that, in respect of any aspect of our economic relations, we can take unilateral decisions without reference to the intentions or plans of the Governments of the countries with which we trade. As nothing has happened which will cause any sudden change in our external trading position, or which will require any alteration in the internal arrangements which we are bringing into operation, it is sensible to await developments before taking decisions which may need, or prove, to be of an irrevocable character.

Whatever the future may bring, it will be the Government's primary aim to secure arrangements best calculated to serve the national interest. It was with this object in mind, and with a sincere desire to play our part in the realisation of the great design for a new Europe, that the Government decided in July, 1961, to seek membership of the European Economic Community. Subsequent events will be already familiar to most Deputies, but some reference to them may be helpful.

Our application was considered at a meeting of the Council of the EEC in October, 1961, following which we were invited to participate in an exchange of views with the member States in January, 1962. A meeting with representatives of the Governments of the member States took place in Brussels on 18th January, 1962, at which I made a statement, the contents of which were published to the Dáil.

A further meeting was held in Brussels in May, 1962, between the Permanent Representatives of the member States and senior officials of the Irish Government to enable the member States to obtain clarification of certain points of an economic character arising from my statement of the 18th January. During the subsequent months, because it was clear that the negotiations with Britain were not proceeding very rapidly, we did not think it wise to press for speedier action on our application.

My visits to the member countries of the EEC in October last, when I had discussions with certain Heads of State and Heads of Government as well as with members of each of the Six Governments and with the Chairman of the Commission, were directed to securing a decision for the formal opening of negotiations on our application. I think I should say that, in the course of these discussions, I heard from none of the Governments any suggestion of opposition in principle to our application or that the detailed negotiations on it would present any great difficulties. There was, however, a question whether the Community would be prepared to contemplate the admission of other applicants until the issue of Britain's relations with the Community was finally resolved. However, on the 22nd October, 1962, the Council of the EEC unanimously agreed to the opening of negotiations on our application on a date to be agreed.

Concurrently with these events, the British application, which had been made on 9th August, 1961, was the subject of negotiations between Britain and the member States. At the preliminary meeting, which took place in Paris on 10th October, 1961, Mr. Heath, the chief British negotiator made a statement in which he told the Six that the United Kingdom accepted the aims and objectives of the Community but there were three problems for which solutions would have to be found—Commonwealth trade, British domestic agriculture and future relations between the EEC and Britain's partners in the EFTA. These, he believed, could be dealt with by protocols and would not require amendments to the Treaty.

The subsequent negotiations were fully reported in the press and it is not necessary to recount them. It had been hoped that a general outline of an agreement would have been discernible by mid-1962, in time for presentation to a Commonwealth Prime Ministers Conference in London in September, but this was not found possible, although understandings had by then been reached on a number of matters.

In the resumed negotiations, further understandings were reached on a number of additional items but all these were, of course, subject to the achievement of a satisfactory overall agreement. The chief problems left outstanding included the question of converting the present system of British agricultural price supports to the EEC system, Britain's request for concessions for her horticulture, and the details of the provisions to apply to Commonwealth exports of temperate foodstuffs. A great amount of detailed examination had been made of these problems which had given a more accurate view and clearer understanding of the difficulties and there appeared to be a general opinion developing that, given the necessary political will, a comprehensive agreement would be reached before long.

This then was the position reached in the negotiations when President de Gaulle gave his press conference in Paris on 14th January, in the course of which he implied that Britain was not yet ready to join the Community. The whole question was, he said, whether Britain could at present join with the Continental countries in the acceptance of a tariff which would be truly a common tariff, could renounce all Commonwealth preferences and cease to claim privileges for her agriculture and, finally, could regard as no longer binding her commitments to the EFTA countries. The French President said that the entry of Great Britain followed by the EFTA countries would alter completely all the adjustments, agreements, compromises and rules which have already been adopted by the Six, and, consequently, a different Common Market would have to be envisaged which would find itself faced with problems of relations with other States; first, with the United States. He said that it was to be expected that the cohesion of its numerous and varied members would not prevail for long and that an enormous Atlantic Community would emerge, under American domination and control, which would soon absorb the European Community. This, he said, was not at all what France had visualised and was striving for. He went on to say that it was possible that one day Britain would transform herself sufficiently to become part of the European Community without restrictions, reservations or preferential arrangements and, when this happened, the Six would open the door to her and France would not oppose her. Meanwhile, he added, there was nothing to prevent an association agreement being concluded between the Common Market and Britain in order to safeguard trade.

It was clear from President de Gaulle's statement that France was opposed to the continuation of the negotiations with Britain and, at a meeting of the Six in Brussels, on 18th January, the French Foreign Minister, M. Couve de Murville, asked for the adjournment of the negotiations. This was opposed by the other member States and it was decided to defer discussion of the matter until 28th January. In the meantime efforts were made by the other member States to prevail on France to agree to a compromise solution to avoid a breakdown in the negotiations. These efforts did not meet with success and on Tuesday last week the negotiations were suspended indefinitely as the Six were unable to agree on future pro cedure.

This deadlock is, we hope, purely temporary. As I said in the Dáil last week, our desire is that a way will be found before long to enable all European countries which share the aims expressed in the Treaty of Rome to participate fully in a wider Community. The forces making for European unity, which received such an impetus after the last World War, will, I feel sure, be strengthened as time goes on and must in the end prevail. The suspension of the British negotiations should be viewed as a temporary setback and not as a final breach. We must also, ourselves, preserve a proper sense of proportion. Even if our eventual decision is that it is not for the present practicable or desirable for us to pursue our application for membership of the Community, this decision will not of itself make our position any worse than it has been for the last two years. Indeed, in many ways we will have gained permanently from the measures already taken to fit our economy for greater competition, and these measures will have to be reinforced and accelerated in our own economic interest. If it should turn out that we have lost for the present the possibility of participating fully in the economic arrangements of the Community, there is still ample scope for economic progress. We have become a stronger economy over the past few years and must strive to make the most rapid advance over the years ahead. Not only will this yield direct benefits in terms of higher employment and living standards, but it will increase our capacity to benefit from eventual participation in a wider European Economic Community.

I do not consider that it would serve any purpose for me to speculate on the reasons for the present impasse, the errors of policy on one side or the other which gave rise to it, or the motives of the principal personalities involved. It would be still less useful to speculate or to comment on the considerations of high-level politics which may be operating, although they are probably more significant than the details of agricultural policy and other matters which were being debated at Brussels. These disputations are concerned less with the operation and scope of the EEC than with the future of Europe and its relations with the USA. Their outcome will affect the future welfare of this country as of others but, nevertheless, I do not consider that it would be in the national interest that the Government should, at this stage, announce a position in regard to them. We are concerned with the realities of the situation for ourselves and its implications for our own future. We are interested in what has already happened as a guide for the conduct of our affairs, but it will not serve any purpose of ours to try to place responsibility on, or to award blame to, anyone. There is nothing which we could have done heretofore which could have influenced the situation. Our main interest lies in what we can do now to ensure the continued growth of our national economy and the wellbeing of our own people.

The comments made by leading statesmen in the Community and in Britain following the suspension of the negotiations reflect the deep disappointment occasioned in many quarters by the collapse of the negotiations. This disappointment we share not only because of the consequences for ourselves but also because of the consequences for Europe as a whole.

Assuming there is no change in the situation as it exists to-day, what are the implications both for our external trading relations and for the internal organisation of our economy? I propose to deal first with our external trading relations and later the possible courses of action in this sphere that may present themselves.

So far as the British market is concerned, our terms of access for industrial products will not be affected, although the tariff preferences which we enjoy there will contract and increased competition must be expected according as British tariffs are eliminated within the EFTA. This process may be extended by the participation of Britain in multilateral negotiations for tariff reductions, the setting for which has been provided by the U.S. Trade Expansion Act. This is, however, uncertain because the exclusion of Britain from the EEC will reduce the usefulness of that Act as an instrument for tariff disarmament. As it stands, it allows for the abolition of duties on all industrial goods for which the USA and the EEC together account for 80 per cent. of world trade. I have seen it stated that, with Britain outside the Community, this provision would apply only to aeroplanes and edible fats. Unless, therefore, the Act is amended to include trade with countries outside the EEC, the results of any negotiations thereunder may be confined to the reduction of duties rather than their elimination. Britain may, however, proceed also with unilateral tariff reductions, as is indeed being advocated there, as a means of stimulating industrial efficiency and accelerating economic growth.

The picture, therefore, of future developments in the British market, so far as our industrial exports are concerned, is one of disappearing preferences and increasing competition from both foreign suppliers and British home production, offset perhaps by rising demand flowing from increased economic activity. In Britain we have tariff-free entry to a market of over 50 million people with a high living standard to which we have been gaining increasing access. As yet we supply only a very small proportion of Britain's import needs. While we may lose some of our preferential advantages, the demand in Britain for imported as well as home products may be expected to rise as national income increases.

On the agricultural side, the present situation means that a gain has been deferred, but our position in relation to the British market remains unaltered, including the price links for cattle and sheep. Other agricultural exports to Britain have to compete with heavily subsidised British domestic production, as well as with world surpluses, the volume of which at times results in the application of import restrictions. The situation in this respect may well be intensified if overseas supplies which formerly went to the EEC area are diverted to Britain, which is the only open market available.

As long as we are outside the EEC, our agricultural exports to that area will be subject to a system of variable levies. This will involve for most products a system of levies based on the difference between the internal Community prices and those of the world markets. Heretofore, our agricultural exports to the Community area have been subject to a variety of national import regimes of very restrictive effect. It would not be correct to assume that the replacement of these by a uniform non-discriminatory system of protection will adversely affect our export possibilities. Our agricultural exports to the Community area in the past have not been very great. As there is every reason to hope that under the new system, nonmember countries would have equal opportunities of access to the market, we might very well succeed in increasing our share of the Community's market for some commodities.

The more important regulations, from our point of view, namely, those for beef and dairy products, have yet to be settled. In the case of dairy products, the intention is to give protection by way of variable levies. In the case of beef, protection would be by way of tariffs, supplemented where necessary by import licensing, but there is pressure in certain quarters of the Community for the application of a system of minimum import prices on the sluice-gate principle. Beef is, however, the principal agricultural product in which the EEC is not self-sufficient, and there may be opportunities of enlarging our beef exports to the area.

The main barrier to the exports of our industrial products will be tariffs. The member countries are in process of moving to the common external tariff, the duties in which, though in general not high, will put our exports at a disadvantage as compared with Community production which can be expected to become increasingly competitive according as it adapts itself to Common Market conditions with the gradual disappearance of duties on intra-Community trade. Nevertheless, rapidly rising living standards will ensure an expanding market which should afford opportunities for increasing exports. The obstacles are not to be underrated but they can be overcome by offering goods that are competitive in quality and price.

While it should be understood that our external trade situation is not now any different to what it has been, the prospect is of intensified competition in every market, including Britain, to which we export our goods. There is no likelihood of any situation developing which will release us from the need for maximum efficiency in every sector, and this is true even if there are no changes other than those which will take place automatically under the operation of existing EFTA and EEC rules.

What prospects are there of other developments? The reaction of the British Government to the suspension of their EEC negotiations was, from our viewpoint, very satisfactory. They have maintained the position of desiring membership, indicated their acceptance of the political and economic principles on which EEC is based, and have been instructing British public opinion that no alternative policy is possible, based either on the Commonwealth or EFTA. If their attitude had been different, if they reacted to the abrupt breaking-off of the negotiations on their application by adopting an attitude of resentment and hostility to Europe, and were seeking now to frame a commercial policy which would create additional impediments to their subsequent participation in EEC, it would have made the position much more difficult for us, having regard to our desire to participate eventually in Europe integration, our economic interests in trade with the Six, and the preponderant importance of our British trade.

In respect of our common desire to join EEC, our expectation that the difficulties are only temporary and that membership will be possible in time, and in respect also of our independent decisions to avoid adopting policies now which would add to the difficulties of negotiating conditions of membership, our policy and that of Britain can be said to be in concert.

British association with the EEC, as a temporary arrangement pending membership, or as a permanent condition, has been suggested by the French President, and important newspapers in Britain have urged that the British Government should not reject this possibility. It is understandable that, heretofore, the British Government would not consider this proposal when offered as an alternative to membership, but if the deadlock over their membership application persists, the British Government may reconsider the proposition. Mr. Heath's House of Commons statement could be read as implying that the offer of an association agreement might be considered if made by the Community as a whole rather than by one member of it.

The form of association suggested —although it was not defined—would appear to be limited to the removal of barriers to trade in industrial products only. It is to be appreciated that one of the difficulties which complicated the British negotiations at Brussels was their agricultural support system, their undertaking to their farmers not to change this system before a General Election, and their desire to phase it out, possibly involving increases in market prices of foodstuffs, by a gradual process. The suggestion is that an association arrangement would meet British economic needs without involving changes in their agricultural support system. If, however, the British Government hopes and expects to acquire membership and to participate fully in EEC affairs, including their agricultural marketing arrangements, it would seem that they may start to move away from this system in the interval prior to the resumption of negotiations. Indeed, there are indications that the British Government are considering changes in their farm support system independently of the question of EEC membership.

The position of EFTA in this situation must be kept in mind. One of the stated purposes of EFTA was to facilitate collective negotiations between the Six and the Seven for a European trading system. This purpose dropped from view during the recent negotiations, but it may now reappear. If negotiations between EEC and EFTA should seem to be likely, it would be necessary for us to have regard to the fact that, as we are not members of EFTA, we would not be involved in them. We did not seek to join EFTA primarily because its arrangements did not embrace agricultural trade.

If negotiations between EFTA and EEC were likely to take place and to lead to the settlement of a new European trading arrangement, we would, of course, have to secure participation in that arrangement either by direct negotiations on our own behalf with the two organisations—which would be difficult—or by seeking membership of one of them. Our desire is to join in a European Community which would embrace all the countries with which we trade, and which would have the regulation of agricultural trade, production and marketing as one of its functions. Our decision to take no course which would impede the realisation of this desire would be an important factor when deciding our policy in such an eventuality. If membership of EEC would not be regarded as possible for economic reasons—because of the serious disruption it might cause in our trade with Britain so long as Britain was not also a member—our interest in seeking membership of EFTA would, of course, be increased if there was a prospect that it might develop a policy for agricultural trade.

If other possibilities should emerge of wider trade negotiations by reason of USA intervention, through GATT or otherwise, we would wish to participate fully in any discussions or negotiations of this kind in which our interests would be involved. Our application for GATT membership was not pressed during the EEC negotiations —because possibly it might be suggested that entry into the Community would have eliminated certain obstacles to our accession to GATT which had been under discussion there.

As regards the position of our application for EEC membership, we had previously made known to the EEC countries that, although it was not linked to Britain's, as were those of Denmark and Norway, we did not wish to proceed with detailed negotiations on it until the progress of British negotiations had revealed the likelihood of agreement and we had a general indication of its character. Up to now, the British application for membership of EEC has not been withdrawn, nor has it been decided by EEC. It is still on the EEC agenda, as is ours. The French Foreign Minister has emphasised that, in his view, what has happened is an adjournment of the negotiations and not a break-off. Action on the British application has been suspended but it does not seem necessary for us to come to any decision regarding our application until the position is clarified, unless the EEC consider that for some procedural reason it should be disposed of. We are not withdrawing our application. Our position is still that we wish to become members of EEC if it is economically possible for us, which is something which we may not be able to decide finally until the position concerning the British application, and Britain's future commercial policy, are known.

We can be described, because of the character of our trade agreements with Britain, as being within the British preferential system. Britain offered in Brussels to liquidate the Commonwealth preferential trading system. This is likely to be a chief topic in the anticipated negotiations in GATT for tariff reductions. The interest of the USA in the termination of this system is well known. As a member of EEC, our trading agreements with Britain would have been submerged in the EEC arrangement. If there is a possibility that the preferential system may be terminated or greatly modified, outside EEC membership, then our interests would be directly involved, and presumably a new trade agreement with Britain made necessary. The value of our preferences in Britain have been steadily eroded by the passage of time, by British resort to quantitative restrictions in some instances, and by the automatic reduction of British tariffs in favour of EFTA countries. Our preferences in Britain's favour have been maintained at the standard rate of 33? per cent. which is of considerable importance to British exporters. British commercial interests are, of course, very much wider in scope than ours and any new principles regarding preferential trading on which she might agree with USA or in the GATT would, it is to be assumed, be applied in our case. While we would much prefer to see our future trading arrangements with Britain as with other European countries conducted under the rules of an International Community such as EEC, if there is a need to re-negotiate our bilateral trading arrangements with Britain, either for a temporary period pending our common membership of EEC, or for an indefinite term, there is a possibility that it would take a different character to the present arrangement. The mutual advantage to both countries in maximising trade between them is, however, so obvious that it is certain that any new agreement which may have to be negotiated will be based on due recognition of this interest.

General de Gaulle's reported suggestion to Denmark that she should proceed with her application for membership of EEC does not appear to be very relevant to our problem. The significance of the statement may, indeed, have been misinterpreted in press comments. The Danish application was expressed to be conditional on British membership. In the light of the suspension of action on the British application, it may be that the Six would not consider themselves free to deal with it, unless it should be withdrawn and replaced by an unconditional application. The Danish Prime Minister has, however, stated that this will not happen. It would seem also that Norway does not intend to pursue her application at this time.

We must, of course, keep ourselves informed of the development of opinions as to the future course of events in Britain and the Six. At the appropriate time, this will very probably involve discussions at Ministerial level. It would be unnecessary and unwise to seek such discussions until we could draw up a fairly precise agenda, having regard to our own policy, of the matters on which we needed information or discussion. This could not be done yet but it is having our attention at the present time.

The possibility of some form of economic association with the EEC is suggested by the fact that we hope ultimately to secure membership and wish in the meantime to have reduced the obstacles to trade with the Community that non-membership entails. The only provision in the Rome Treaty on the subject of association is that in Article 238 which says:—

The Community may conclude with a third country, a union of States or an international organisation agreements creating an association embodying reciprocal rights and obligations, joint actions and special procedures.

It was pointed out in our White Paper on the EEC that this provision leaves room for a wide variety of forms of association; also that there was no established doctrine covering association which would serve as a guide to countries seeking such status. Only one country, Greece, has so far negotiated an agreement for association. It provides for Greece's participation in the customs union of the Six with a view to ultimate membership of the Community. Association on the Greek model would undermine the essential basis of the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreements because of the barriers it would erect to trade between the two countries. This objection would disappear if association by way of participation in the customs union of the Six were extended to a group embracing ourselves and Britain. Whether such an arrangement is feasible or would be in accord with the wishes of the countries concerned has yet to be seen, but the question is one which lies at the core of the present uncertainty about future relations between the EEC and other Western European countries.

Failing association on a group basis, association for us on an individual basis would, for the reasons I mentioned, lie some place in that vague territory outside the customs union which the Community itself, even, has not yet charted, although we have been given to understand that for some time past consideration has been given to the elaboration of principles which would guide the Community in the negotiation of future association agreements. It is impossible, therefore, to say what a form of association outside the customs union would mean in terms of reciprocal rights and obligations—to quote the wording of Article 238 of the Rome Treaty. It seems clear, however, that, from the point of view of the desideratum which I mentioned earlier, namely, the reduction of obstacles to trade with the Community, it would be a second best to a form of association providing for participation in the customs union.

As regards a possible arrangement with the EEC, a limiting factor will be the need to avoid any damaging clash between the consideration given in exchange for benefits from the Community and the principles on which our trade with Britain rests. Since the consideration on our side would be the gradual opening of our market to the Community to the detriment of Britain's preferential rights, it would be idle to pretend that there are not very real difficulties in the way of such a provisional link with the Community, nor could it in any event be usefully explored until we had some idea of the prospective trend of future relations between Britain, the Community and other countries.

There is also the question of the extent to which the Community would be willing to accord any individual country—or even a group of countries —preferential treatment. Such preferential treatment would, because of the provisions of the GATT, to which all the member States of the Community are parties, be feasible only in the context of a customs union, or free trade area, or an interim agreement leading to the formation of a customs union or free trade area. The prospects for such an interim agreement would be enhanced if it could be fitted within a broader framework embracing relations between the EEC and the present applicants for membership and based on the hypothesis that eventually the Community would admit these countries to membership. What, in effect, is involved in this question is the future relations between the EEC and other Western European countries including those in the EFTA. Efforts to create a free trade area between the EEC and the countries which now constitute the EFTA broke down in 1958. Nevertheless, it is possible, as I have said, that some form of association between Britain and other EFTA countries on the one hand and the Community on the other may evolve. In any event, it is not unlikely that the EFTA will have a role in the settlement of future relations between the EEC and other countries of Western Europe and that scope for individual arrangements of any significant value may be small.

A bilateral trade agreement which did not provide for mutual tariff reductions could not be expected to result in any notable increase in trade with the Community. This has been our general experience with bilateral trade agreements of this kind. The tendency nowadays is to get away from bilateral tariff agreements and to promote instead multilateral tariff reductions aimed at the expansion of trade on a world-wide basis. This is the primary function of the GATT whose activities in the sphere of international trade complement those of the International Monetary Fund in the sphere of international payments. We are already a member of the Fund and we applied in 1960 for membership of the GATT. We have up to now benefited from the application of the most favoured-nation principle even though not a party to the GATT. The benefits in terms of tariff reductions have heretofore been slight, but, according as reductions in the course of future tariff negotiations become significant, there may be a tendency to confine the resultant benefits to member countries. Our recent 10 per cent. tariff cut would, if bound, probably be more than sufficient to secure us entry to the GATT and we would thereafter have a contractual right to benefit from all tariff reductions subsequently negotiated. Participation in such negotiations would not entail burdensome obligations for us, as we are not principle suppliers of any commodity entering into international trade. As a participant in the negotiations planned to take place against the background of the United States Trade Expansion Act, we would be in a position to align ourselves with those countries which will be pressing for the lowering of barriers to trade and to support any moves for the more orderly marketing of agricultural products. This latter point is of interest to us because of the effects on our exports of dumping of agricultural surpluses on the British market and the provision made in the GATT in regard to the measures which a contracting party is permitted to take against other contracting parties in such a situation. For all these reasons, we shall have to consider whether we should not now go forward with our application for accession to the GATT.

In so far, therefore, as it is possible, in the present conditions, to discern the broad principles which should inform our future policy in the sphere of external trade, it would hardly be contested that our interests would best be served by participation in some multilateral arrangement to which Britain was a party. The most advantageous arrangement would be one embracing Britain and the EEC, which might be expected to lead eventually to our membership of the Community. An alternative would be participation in the EFTA, the existence of which may facilitate the bridging of the gap between the EEC and the other Western European countries by maintaining the pace of tariff reductions.

Whatever course of action we adopt, we must have regard to the fundamental importance to us of the British market to which 75 per cent. of our total exports and 80 per cent. of our agricultural exports go. This concentration of our export trade in the British market is a consequence of the preferential terms obtained under the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreements which ensure duty-free access for practically all our products and certain links with the British price guarantee system for our store cattle and store sheep. There is little scope for negotiations on further tariff concessions. While it would be of considerable benefit to us if the existing price links could be extended to other agricultural commodities, proposals made by us to this end a few years ago were unsuccessful and there is no reason to believe that they would be any more successful now when major changes in British agricultural policy may be under contemplation.

While exercising caution not to prejudice our existing rights under the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreements, we must recognise that world trade is moving from the framework of bilateral agreements to that of multilateral arrangements and that the possibility of negotiating satisfactory arrangements on a purely bilateral basis with Britain or with the EEC, or any other country or any other group of countries is rapidly decreasing.

While the uncertainties of the situation preclude for the present any confident predictions about our future course of action in the sphere of external economic relations, we are not similarly inhibited from taking prompt and vigorous action to adapt the internal organisation of our economy to the situation in which we find ourselves. However great the area of uncertainty in the international situation, certain elements emerge clearly: first, in view of the possibility that our participation in the agricultural marketing arrangements of EEC may be prevented or delayed, there is greater need than ever to look to industrial exports as the mainspring of our economic growth: secondly, whatever arrangement or combination of arrangements we enter into in relation to external trade will involve concessions on our part in the form of reduced tariffs; and thirdly, although it is undesirable to exaggerate the possibilities—they may not exist in fact—the principle of bartering industrial tariffs where necessary for agricultural trade opportunities, must be accepted.

Whether our application for EEC membership proceeds, is delayed or is defeated, we have difficult and comprehensive tasks of reconstruction to undertake, and they cannot be avoided. The completion of these tasks calls for a degree of co-operation, and forbearance in pursuing sectional ends, between agriculture and industry, between employers and workers, greater than we have heretofore achieved, and for consultation and if possible agreement between the Government and representatives of economic interests, which can be undertaken by any practicable method but which are more likely to be fruitful if they are organised and regular.

We intend to base our policy on the assumption that circumstances will emerge which will permit of the admission of the present applicant countries to the EEC. In such an event we would be faced with the obligation to eliminate tariffs on imports from the Community by 1970. It is the safer assumption that, no matter what delays take place now, the EEC transitional period will not change. In our negotiations with the Community, we have been counting on a six-year transitional period; and in any future multilateral arrangement in which we may participate, involving the removal of tariffs, it would be unwise to count on the possibility of a transitional period of this length.

The considerations I have mentioned should constitute the guide lines of our policy for dealing with the situation with which we are confronted. They underline the necessity for maintaining the efforts which were initiated, with membership of the EEC in mind, towards increasing efficiency in order that our products may achieve the highest standards of competitiveness on both the home and export markets. This, indeed, is the vital condition of national progress, no matter how international circumstances may develop. Moreover, our freedom of action in external relations will be proportionate to our capacity to make Ireland a stronger and more independent economic entity. To this end it is essential that the surveys of industry and agriculture should be carried through to completion and that the actions decided to be desirable, arising from the reviews, should be promptly taken. Re-equipment, reorganisation of production systems, setting up of Adaptation Councils, co-operation in the field of export marketing and the considerable range of State aids must all be applied vigorously. Various other measures designed to help workers to cope with the consequences of more stringent trading conditions must be followed up. The setting up of standing advisory trade union bodies to work in co-operation with the Adaptation Councils, planning of arrangements where required for retraining and resettlement of workers and for dealing with any redundancy problems which arise must also proceed.

There is a danger that, in the conditions of uncertainty that may prevail in the months ahead, the momentum that has been achieved in the preparations for entry to the EEC will be lost. Preoccupation with external events, or with the short-term discomforts of adjustment, must not cause us to lose sight of our principal objective, namely, the reshaping of the economy to enable us to hold our place in a world that is moving towards freer trade and to maintain the rate of economic growth achieved in recent years.

To sustain the pace of adaptation and reorganisation, aids and exhortations alone will not be sufficient. There may be a tendency for some sections of industry to adopt a "wait-and-see" or even a complacent attitude. Some compelling discipline—some additional pressures—will be necessary. The obvious discipline for this purpose is to keep in view, as a definite aim, the pursuit of our application for membership of the EEC and to make preparations accordingly by, inter alia, continuing the tariff reduction process initiated on 1st January last. Only in this way can we ensure that uneconomic industrial units are induced to amalgamate or change over to economic lines of production.

Because our industrial development has long passed the stage in which a policy of protection can stimulate further industrial growth, the primary emphasis has been deliberately shifted in recent years to direct development grants and tax incentives as the means of raising industrial capacity and employment and increasing production for export. It is only through enlarging its sales on export markets that Irish industry can in future expand at a rate which will give us the increase in employment we require. Moreover, a steady increase in exports is needed to support the greater internal activity and the higher expenditure on imports which will go with a general improvement in employment and living standards. The non-competitiveness of many of our industrial products is related to the smallness of the home market, the inadequate utilisation of productive capacity and the lack of opportunities for economies of scale and specialisation. The only remedy for these deficiencies is to bring about an expansion of export demand for the products of Irish industry through the offer of high quality goods at competitive prices.

High tariffs which protect inefficiency or obsolete equipment and procedures, have outlived their usefulness. We have followed the classical pattern of industrial expansion development based on the home market assisted by protection leading to growing efficiency and increasing export potentialities reducing or eliminating the need for home market protection. In the case of the great majority of our protected industries, however, exports form as yet only a small proportion of output. The scale of protection is such that in many industries there is no competition from imports at present. An increasing element of competition on the home market should be a general and effective spur to improvements, supplementing the special aids and incentives to which only the more progressive industries may respond. The scaled reduction of protection over a period of years would ensure more intense concentration by management and labour on the raising of efficiency and productivity and reinforce the tax and other incentives to increase production for export.

By their readiness to co-operate in the formulation and carrying out of measures necessary to prepare industry for entry to the EEC, management and labour have shown that they appreciate the force of these arguments. The apparent breathing space that would be presented by the indefinite postponement of our entry to the Community could, however, cause the weaker elements in industry to waver and doubts to be raised about the need to reduce protection, particularly on a unilateral basis. Although it is necessary to emphasise again and again that in this situation there is greater need than ever, in our own interest and regardless of international bargaining possibilities, for greater competitive efficiency in industry, and that expansion of exports against world competition is the key to national economic progress, it should not be necessary for me to say that the promotion of industrial efficiency by reduction of protection is not being initiated because of free trade principles, but because in the circumstances now prevailing in the world it is recognised to be necessary for economic and social progress. To remain efficient only in parts of the economy, with limited capacity to expand exports, is to condemn ourselves to inert dependence on the British market in which we may expect a progressive hardening of competitive conditions for our products.

We must be prepared, as I mentioned earlier, to assume the obligations of membership of the EEC whenever the opportunity presents itself. There is little doubt that for this purpose the effective date for the elimination of tariffs will not change and will be not later than 1st January, 1970. Unless we maintain the process of tariff reductions already initiated we will not be able to meet that deadline. Tariff reductions amounting in the aggregate to 50 per cent. have already been made within the EEC and it is anticipated that the process of tariff dismantlement within the Community will be completed by 1967. The countries of the EFTA have likewise achieved a 50 per cent. reduction and can be expected to keep abreast of further reductions in the EEC. We are the only country of the fourteen now involved in these activities, which has not seriously started the process of tariff reductions. We have a very considerable gap to close and we have only a limited time in which to do it.

I am not saying that we should not make such use as we can of tariff reductions as a bargaining counter to obtain corresponding concessions in our interest from other countries. It would, however, be unrealistic to expect specific benefits of particular value to ourselves. Our market— especially that portion of it which is protected by tariffs—is not, by international standards, a large one. The process of tariff reductions is now generally conducted on the basis of simple reciprocity and in a multilateral context. The scope for extracting special terms in bilateral arrangements is extremely limited since most of the important trading countries belong to GATT, and must, therefore, extend to all members tariff concessions given in any bilateral context. The compensation an individual country receives for reducing its tariffs is participation in the benefit of the tariff reductions of other countries.

We tried unsuccessfully in 1959/60 to arrange special bilateral terms with Britain. Since then the trend has been even more pronouncedly towards mulilateral tariff reductions and away from preferential arrangements, the tariff reductions being either mathematically progressive within regional systems or proceeding at intervals under GATT auspices according as major initiatives such as the so-called "Dillon round" and the prospective "Kennedy round" are taken. It is important to have an established right to share in the increased access given to external markets by these general reductions and this is a ground for participating in multilateral arrangements, especially those affecting the British market. But the primary importance of continuing gradually to reduce protection is that the process provides a necessary stimulus to the rapid adaptation and reorganisation of our industry on which, more than on reduced tariffs elsewhere, depends our prospect of increasing our exports and, therefore, our employment and living standards.

It was with these considerations in mind that the Government decided, as I announced last week, that there would be a further general reduction of our industrial protective tariffs on 1st January, 1964. While our policy in this matter must be flexible, and adjustable to conditions as they develop, there is much to be said for the principle that the rhythm of reduction contemplated for EEC purposes should be observed at least for some time ahead, that is to say, that our general aim should be to achieve a reduction of the order of one-third by 1st January, 1965, unilaterally if necessary. This would mean that a tariff of 75 per cent. full, 50 per cent. preferential operative before 1st January, 1963, would be reduced to 50 per cent. full, 33? per cent. preferential.

I am not suggesting that tariffs of that level are typical in our system, but it will be appreciated that most of our tariffs, certainly of that order, are still high by international standards and would give considerable scope for further reduction either unilaterally or for bargaining purposes. After 1965 the automatic nature of such reductions could be qualified to meet the needs of basically sound industries which were energetically improving their standards of efficiency but which might encounter difficulties through the automatic application of further tariff cuts. In this connection it may be decided to introduce some process of survey or review for the purpose of deciding the future rate of tariff reduction, eliminating as far as possible uncertainty about future conditions of trading in the home market, and determining what special aids or services to assist adaptation to greater competition might be necessary.

A policy of tariff reduction has little relevance to the problems facing us in the agricultural sector since our agricultural products have in general only a minor degree of tariff protection. Agriculture has performed creditably in the difficult conditions of international trade which have existed during the past seven or eight years and I am confident that it will do so in the future. One readily understands the interest with which farmers looked forward to the more equitable conditions of competition and wider openings which should eventually prevail in the Common Market. While the present developments have been a disappointment to these expectations, increased productivity and efficiency in agriculture will be of even greater importance than in the past and will enable our farmers to hold their place successfully with other European countries in an integrated system in the enlarged Community which it is our hope to see established eventually. The agricultural surveys being carried out under the aegis of the Committee of Agricultural Organisations are well advanced and these will help to guide us in developing future policies.

Apart from the question of entry to the Common Market, the Brussels discussions have been of great benefit in highlighting the difficulties and distortions that beset agricultural production and trade, the gravity of which has not always been fully appreciated. The new light thrown on the problems and the exhaustive analysis they have undergone will help in finding a solution to them. One can henceforth expect a greater recognition of the wisdom and justice of paying a fair price for food entering into international trade. The movement towards international commodity agreements designed to stabilise prices at reasonable levels has been greatly strengthened. The period of renewed growth into which the world is now moving will bring increased demand for food and for high-quality foods of the kind which Ireland is fitted to produce.

We thought that we knew the pattern of events as it could develop during this decade. It may still be much as we had assumed, but whether it is or not, it is certain to be such as to require of us enterprise, initiative, adaptability, and a capacity for united effort for the national welfare. If we develop these qualities it does not really matter very much how things abroad may work out because we will be able to go ahead in any international circumstances.

The task before us is to adapt our economy to conditions in which trade barriers are coming down on a world wide scale and to maintain and increase our share of world trade. Trading arrangements in themselves will be of little avail unless we make use of the time that is left to raise our economy to the highest possible pitch of efficiency. This is a job which we must tackle for ourselves. Speaking for the Government, all necessary plans and arrangements will be devised to speed this work. Much has already been done through the first Programme for Economic Expansion but much remains to be done. The second Programme now in preparation must be tailored to the conditions we are likely to experience in the next few years to ensure that our available resources are effectively applied in the promotion of economic growth. Before the Programme takes final shape, there will be extensive consultations with interests representative of all important sectors of the economy so that there will be a thorough understanding of the objectives in mind and, so far as is possible, agreement on how these objectives are to be achieved. I hope it will be possible to launch the new Programme before the end of this year thereby establishing the necessary framework for our economic development in the years ahead.

One must plead for some measure of indulgence if one experiences consternation in listening to the Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party speaking for an hour and a quarter on the subject of free trade and the vital importance of the British market to the Irish economy. If he had advanced either thesis to any member of his Party during the past 20 years, they would have gone as near to assassinating him as the law would allow, and I can assure him from my position looking at the faces of his own backbenchers that it is a most stimulating experience. Whether it is the reaction to learning the truth or the discovery that they have been made fools of for so long, I cannot quite delineate, but the general air of bewilderment that characterises them from the youngest to the most venerable is a stimulating experience for those of us on this side of the House.

I want to say in the economic context on which the Taoiseach has been pleased to dwell primarily that it is all very well to say that Fianna Fáil have suddenly decided to reverse engines and, having been a high-tariff Party for the past 30 years, have now changed their minds and the tariffs are coming down. If that decision is proclaimed, there is an essential and all-important concomitant undertaking that must be forthcoming from any Government in this country, that is, that the men and women whom we put into those industries a quarter of a century ago and who are now at middle age are not going to be told that they are the eggs to be broken to make the new Fianna Fáil economic omelette. We have a clear and inescapable obligation to provide for the men and women who were induced to spend their lives securing skills in those highly-protected industries and who to-day are threatened with unemployment and in some cases with circumstances which make it virtually impossible for them to find alternative employment, with the special skills they have spent the past quarter of a century acquiring.

I was surprised when the Taoiseach to-day was dealing with this aspect of the situation and affirming that world trends imposed upon us the obligation to convey that Fianna Fáil had abandoned high-tariff trade protection and that the whole thing was now a thing of the past that he had no word to say of reassurance to the thousands of people in this country to whom such an announcement must come in a way that strikes terror in their hearts. Mind you, most of the people who have invested capital in those industries have some means of salvaging what they have invested. Many of them have already got their capital recouped and are now living on the profits. But the men and women who invested their working lives in those industries are in an entirely different case, and we have a very solemn obligation to protect them from the consequences of the reversal of economic policy which the Taoiseach is prepared to announce here to-day.

I am glad that the Taoiseach at least, and the Fianna Fáil Party, I assume, have woken up to the fact of the vital importance to this country of the British market, but they really ought to go for 40 days into the desert to fast and pray to purge themselves of their past history. There were a number of elections fought in this country to prove that it was of no value whatever to this country, that it was gone, thanks be to God, and the Minister for External Affairs, sitting here smiling blandly, praying to God that all the ships in the world would be sunk to the bottom of the seas, and saying that this country would be far better off if we had no trade with outside countries at all.

That is not true.

I admit that is ancient history now but it is a welcome change and it is a change that I do not doubt will redound to the general economic advantage of the State. I observe that the Taoiseach said in his speech that as a result of new trends in the world emphasis had been shifted from a policy of high tariff protection to a policy of trade concessions, grants and loans. Does the Taoiseach not remember saying from these benches, when he was in Opposition and when we introduced that change, that, as soon as he got back to office, the first thing he would do would be to repeal those changes?

He says it is nonsense now.

This is supposed to be a serious discussion.

It is a serious discussion and I do not think that the Taoiseach will like it by the time it is finished. I propose now to read his history in this matter. I have held off and I have not taken him to task because he was supposed to be engaged in serious negotiations in Brussels and I had no wish to embarrass or hamper him in any way. I think it is time now that we held an inquest to see what Fianna Fáil has been responsible for, to see whither Fianna Fáil tends to lead the country at the present time and to see whether Fianna Fáil is competent to remain in Government in this country, which I very seriously doubt.

It is a sign of encouragement for me to notice that we are drawing from the front bench of Fianna Fáil grunts, groans and interruptions culminating in the disappearance from the House of the Minister for External Affairs. The Taoiseach spoke at great length, as he was entitled to, and with great circumspection and particularly with reference to the economic and political considerations of the present negotiations. I want to put this to the House to-day, Sir. There are two elements in the collapse of the Brussels negotiations, one is the political consideration and the other is the economic consideration. Of the two I believe the political consideration is the gravest for this country.

The Taoiseach said in his speech that he regarded the rejection of Britain's application for membership of the Common Market as only a temporary setback. I would wish to share that hope but I have the uncomfortable feeling that the result, quite apart from the nature and substance of the rejection of the British application by France in opposition to her five partners in the Common Market, has undermined the basis of confidence on which the whole concept of the Common Market was founded.

The Taoiseach in the course of his speech recalled the fact that President de Gaulle in the course of his Press conference concluded his announcement of French opposition to the acceptance of the British application by saying that the Common Market would become so very enormous and diverse that it would not hold out for very long and that ultimately a colossal Atlantic community would take shape under the aegis of America which would absorb the European community in a very short time. I think it is extremely important that we should recall what President Kennedy actually said and not what President de Gaulle understood him to say. They are two entirely different things. President de Gaulle foresaw a colossal Atlantic community which would take shape and which would be dependent on the assistance and direction of America.

What President Kennedy said was:

The nations of Western Europe, long divided by feuds more bitter than any which existed among the 13 colonies, are joining together, seeking, as their forefathers sought, to find freedom in diversity and to find strength in unity.

The United States looks on this vast enterprise with hope and admiration. We do not regard a strong and united Europe as a rival but as a partner. To aid its progress has been a basic object of our foreign policy for 17 years. We believe that a united Europe will be capable of playing a greater role in the common defence, of responding more generously to the needs of poorer nations, of joining with the United States and others in lowering trade barriers, resolving problems of currency and commodities, and developing co-ordinated policies in all other economic, diplomatic and political areas. We see in such a Europe a partner with whom we could deal on a basis of full equality in all the great and burdensome tasks of building and defending a community of free nations.

It would be premature, at this time, to do more than indicate the high regard with which we would view the formation of this partnership. The first order of business is for our European friends to go forward in forming the more perfect union which will some day soon make it possible.

A great new edifice is not built overnight. It was 11 years from the Declaration of Independence to the writing of the Constitution. The construction of working Federal institutions required still another generation. The greatest works of our nation's founders lay not in documents and declarations, but in creative, determined action. The building of the new house of Europe has followed this same practical and purposeful course. Building the Atlantic partnership will not be cheaply or easily finished.

But I will say, here and now, on this Day of Independence, that the United States will be ready for a Declaration of Interdependence — that we will be prepared to discuss with a united Europe the ways and means of forming a concrete Atlantic partnership—a mutually beneficial partnership between the new union now emerging in Europe and the old American Union founded here a century and three-quarters ago.

All this will not be completed in a year—but let the world know that this is now our goal.

You may agree or disagree with that concept but at least you know, when you have read that, what President Kennedy proposes to do. The voice of Ireland has now been heard in the foreign affairs of the world for quite a number of years as Egypt, India and the Sudan have reason to know when they had no other friend to speak for them. I think we are entitled to ask what is going to be done about a matter which vitally affects our most vital interest. At least we know the policy envisaged by President Kennedy. Does anybody know the policy envisaged by the President of the French Republic for Europe or for anywhere else? I believe that the Atlantic partnership is still the goal of all the free nations of Europe except France and I think it is important to remember that without freedom there will be neither peace nor prosperity.

That very element of uncertainty which the President of the French Republic introduces into the life of us all by the Delphic nature of his pronouncements is, I think, legitimate cause for complaint by us all. Mind you, you hear now, spoken of frequently, a concept which he is alleged to have of a Europe stretching from the Atlantic Ocean to the Urals. I remember having brought to my attention some time ago an extract from La Nation Francaise of August 8th, 1962, which purported to record a conversation between President de Gaulle and General de Berchon. When I first saw that, I dismissed it as simply being vicious propaganda against the President of the French Republic by his political opponents. I commend perusal of that alleged conversation to some people who are today wondering where Europe is heading now.

I very much feel that whereas if Great Britain and Ireland and Denmark and Norway had been admitted to the Common Market, all ten of us, could have gone on in mutual confidence to the development of a dynamic and outward-looking organisation concerned to combine with the United States of America for the preservation of freedom in the world and for the frustration of the Communist conspiracy which has openly avowed to bury us and freedom with us, I apprehend today that with the attitude adopted by France—if it is not very radically altered—the whole basis of mutual confidence requisite for such a satisfactory development of the Common Market, is being whittled away.

I would direct the attention of the Dáil to the statement of Dr. Mansholt, as published in the newspapers of 2nd February, 1963, when he says, quite bluntly—and he is a very influential member of the Commission of the Common Market——

The Common Market is "finished" if France does not change her policy.

He told a press conference President de Gaulle's "third force" concept of Europe was a great danger. A "very serious crisis" had been created, and the Community was "finished" if France's policy did not change.

Professor Erhard, the West German Vice-Chancellor, is reported in the newspapers of 5th February, 1963, as bitterly attacking President de Gaulle on the EEC issue and as saying that he was ready to take over the country's leadership from Chancellor Adenauer if the Christian Democratic Party and the Bundestag so wished. The report continues:

In an interview with the influential Munich newspaper, Suddeutsche Zeitung, he said that he believed in the closest relations between Germany and the Atlantic Community, particularly the United States. He opposed “little European groupings”.

Asked if he would hold firmly to these beliefs "even at the risk of deepening the rift between you and the Federal Chancellor", Dr. Erhard replied: "Definitely, yes".

Dr. Erhard rejected General de Gaulle's conception of a Europe stretching from the Atlantic to the Urals and standing on its own.

"What is this Europe supposed to look like?" he asked. "Under what principles of order, under what socio-political ideas, is it supposed to stand? And what political consequences would such a policy have?"

I think it would be well for Ireland to state quite definitely that we share, with the majority of the free nations of Europe, the desire to see a real European union corresponding with the offer made by President Kennedy in Philadelphia on 4th July, 1962, working together not only for the preservation of freedom in the world but for the resolution of the economic problems of the emergent nations and the future maintenance of decent living standards for all our people in our several countries and above all, in order that we may work to ensure that the world will not progressively divide into a rich bloc, and a poor bloc, the rich growing richer and the poor growing poorer, which I am afraid is a very real danger if President de Gaulle's concept of the Common Market, in so far as we understand it at the present time, were allowed to develop in lieu of the more liberal concept outlined by Dr. Mansholt and Professor Erhard in the extracts which I have read.

Mind you, I think Deputies will have noticed recently, and with some dismay, discussions being held, consequent on the collapse of the Brussels negotiations, amongst the members of EFTA, amongst Commonwealth nations, amongst a variety of trading groups, and one is obliged to ask oneself: where does Ireland come in in all these negotiations? I see that the Taoiseach has envisaged that we might even be members of GATT. It is eminently desirable that we should be turning our minds very actively to the question of how we should associate ourselves with the other trading nations of the world for the protection of our own trading interests. I found it hard to follow precisely what the Taoiseach was saying about our application for admission to the EEC at present on file at Brussels, but I gathered, after all the circumlocution has been whittled away, that the position is we are not pursuing it, that we are leaving it there for the present and leaving it remain, unless or until Great Britain becomes a member of the EEC.

If that is the decision, I think it is the right decision. I did not get much information from what the Taoiseach had to say as to whether he felt there was any hope of consolidating and expanding such markets as we have on the Continent of Europe. He seemed to suggest that anything other than bilateral discussion was out of the question. I am not clear whether our existing bilateral agreements with France, Germany and certain other countries which now constitute part of the Common Market, are still obtaining. So far as I know, they are. I do not know why we cannot continue to expand them. I know that the agreement with the French in respect of the quota for lamb and mutton is very valuable and would be much more valuable, if it were further extended. The same is true with regard to fish. I would not abandon hope of trying to consolidate our position further on the British market and I would hope that in the new situation, the advantages which we at present enjoy, on both the industrial and the agricultural side, under the 1948 and other trade agreements, could be expanded.

Naturally the advantages we have in respect of livestock are of outstanding value to us and will continue to be so, but there are certain other branches, especially bacon and live pigs, where I think there is scope for a very wide expansion of trade between here and Great Britain if we could persuade the British to accept our produce on terms which are likely to yield us any margin of profit at all.

All this seems to me to be more urgently necessary if you look at the strange picture that is beginning to emerge in respect of our economic situation. Our adverse trade balance in this year has for the first time in history exceeded £100,000,000 sterling. That is accompanied by a strange fact, that our net external assets in joint stock banks, Government Funds and the Central Bank are virtually stable. That implies that there are very large capital movements taking place between this country and the outside world. These capital movements, so far as I know, could fall into three categories: either we are selling our land; or there is substantial capital investment in industry and business here, either by acquisition or establishment; or there are substantial sums of hot money coming in here for temporary residence.

It is this influx of capital which is maintaining our balance of payments in virtual equilibrium but it is vitally important to have regard to certain matters of a consequential character. One is that, sooner or later, we will reach the limit of the amount of Irish land we are prepared to sell to foreigners. The present situation is that there is a standing order in a number of Dublin and country house agents and land agents to buy up any good land that comes on to the market in lots not less than 200 to 300 acres. A great deal of it, undoubtedly, is being sold into foreign ownership. That creates a situation for us like the situation of the old lady who had a beautiful house filled with lovely furniture but who could not pay her dressmaker. Having ordered her winter outfit from her dressmaker, her dressmaker would not deliver until she could pay for it. The old lady called in an auctioneer and sold all the furniture from the drawingroom and with the cheque paid the dressmaker and was a swell for another winter. She cannot go on doing that indefinitely. In that case her relatives put her in a mental hospital, out of harm's way. We are doing the same thing in so far as we are selling land to foreign owners and consuming the proceeds.

In regard to industrial investment in this country, it is to be borne in mind that for every £10,000,000 invested in this country, ultimately that will involve a charge of approximately £700,000 per annum on our balance of payments because you can take it, by and large, that money invested in this country for industrial purposes from outside is designed to earn approximately seven per cent all round. So long as it is coming in, that is fine, but every £10,000,000 that comes in imposes a charge of £700,000 on our balance of payments thereafter. It is a cumulative process because for every £10,000,000 that comes in there is an additional £700,000 ultimately going to go out. The hot money—I do not know how far this is hot money at all—but if it is hot money, any crisis in regard to the British £ sterling will have repercussions here and could sweep that money out of here very, very quickly.

In those circumstances we had better look around us, more especially having regard to our export and import performance in the past 12 months. It is practically true to say that in every month since last February our exports have been lower than they were last year and it is also practically true to say that in every month since last March our imports have been higher. If our exports were going up and our imports were going up, that would be relatively unimportant because you could argue that the imports represented additional quantities of raw materials which would subsequently be going out in increased exports. But, when you find import going up and exports coming down, it is something that we have got to have regard to.

The Taoiseach says the increased figures for unemployment are due to the snow and ice. Well, there are 69,599 persons out of work in this country today. That is 10,000 more than there were this day 12 months and 7,500 more than there were this day two years ago. After we have shipped 300,000 young people between the ages of 18 and 30 years of age out of this country in the past six years, we have 10,000 more out of work, and that at a time when our exports are declining and our imports going up and when our adverse trade balance is over £100,000,000. That is happening at a time when we should have regard to the fact that in the northeast of England and in the midlands of England, unemployment is tending to increase stiffly. Its repercussions on our people who are already there can easily be imagined. Many of them may come home to us here and if we have no employment for them our problems will be that much more complex and difficult.

I have mentioned before, and I think it fair and legitimate to mention it now, that I cannot congratulate the Government on the extent to which they themselves were informed of what was passing in Europe. I know a great many people shared their lack of preparedness for the developments that took place but I often wonder, if our foreign service has no better information to provide for us than we appear to have got in regard to what was brewing in connection with the Brussels negotiations, what is the point of having a foreign service at all. We had ambassadors in Paris; we had ambassadors in Brussels and, so far as I can find out, our Government had no notion of what was likely to happen, and what did happen, in Brussels in the last fortnight.

Even members of the French Government did not have an idea.

Perhaps that is true. That may be the answer. If that is the correct answer, that nobody had any idea, then we are in the strange position that one man threatens to run the whole of Europe and we are entitled to ask ourselves where is he going to run it? I do not think it is unreasonable, if that is the case, that we here in Ireland, as they may in England and elsewhere, should stipulate that it is nearly time he let us all into the secret of where he proposes to go. In the meantime we are entitled to believe that there is some truth in the interview in La Nation Francaise on August 8th, 1962 and, if there is, God help us all because the concept there of substituting friendship with Moscow for friendship with Washington is a view, I believe, that will be acceptable to very few people who love freedom or who have any hope of a decent future for ourselves and our children and our children's children.

I want to say that I think this country is heading for trouble and, unless the Government are prepared to bestir themselves to take steps to correct the present trend, in the course of the next year or two we will be in so critical a state that our hopes of joining the European Economic Community, even if negotiations were then reopened, would be remote in the extreme.

I think we have waited too long in drawing the attention of Dáil Éireann to these facts, but clearly it is our mutual duty now to watch the development of these economic factors which will press so heavily upon us, and it will be the duty of the Government to tell us what measures they propose to take to put it right. If they do not put it right, we will be ineligible for the European Economic Community or for any other community and our people will be faced with a very difficult situation at a time when we will be experiencing the reaction of the difficulties that are likely to arise in Great Britain in the course of the next 12 months.

The Taoiseach spoke in very wide generalities today. He has not told us what he intends to do in order to expand agricultural production and improve the quality of agricultural output. He has not told us what he proposes to do in relation to the displaced persons to whom removal of protective tariffs must inevitably give rise in what he is pleased to describe as the inefficient industries that will go to the wall. He has not told us what his views are on the adverse trade balance of £100,000,000, on the 69,000 unemployed, the decline in exports and rise in imports. He has not told us, if he knows, what is the nature of the capital movements that are operating temporarily to cover up the balance of payments situation which underlies this whole economic picture I have drawn, and he has not told us how and when his Government propose to remedy it. If he has no plans for remedying it and means to wait until he can get out of office and leave it to somebody else to clean up the mess, I suppose we will do it, but he will have done a great disservice to this country and, maybe, an irreparable injury.

I listened with very great care to the statement which the Taoiseach read here this afternoon and I think those who heard it will come to the conclusion that it was a sober and indeed a very sombre review of the domestic situation, vis-á-vis our relationship, or possible relationship, with the Common Market. If the Taoiseach looks back on his own manuscript, he will see it is well laced with such expressions as “if”, “might” and “whether”, all indicating that even the Taoiseach himself was unable to see clearly through the situation which now confronts Europe.

I do not blame the Taoiseach for that. Europe is bewildered and bemused by the attitude of General de Gaulle, and even the partners of the French in the EEC are simply unable to explain the set of circumstances that now exists in Europe. As far as we here are concerned, the gay language of six months ago that this was a great challenge, and the recent poetic effusions of the Tánaiste that we should move out of this western backwater into the European sunlight, will be left aside, I take it, for many months to come.

It is not necessary, in reviewing this whole question of the EEC, to go back over the rather difficult and tortuous ground we have covered in many previous debates. We can see the situation relatively clearly, or at all events, could see it clearly until the French debacle of a week or so ago. I think it was accepted by all Parties in the House, or practically all, that out of sheer necessity, if the British joined EEC, there was simply nothing we could do but join, and the situation in that respect was based not on any pro-British sentiments, not on any affection for British domination, not on any desire to be associated with an ascendancy outlook, but on the sheer necessity of being in close association with the best customer we had on the face of the earth.

It was the sheer necessity that compelled us, almost without thinking, to follow the British because the British would buy our goods and they had the money to pay for our goods. Were we otherwise to show our independence —to tell them we would not sell them any goods, that we would try to sell them to people who were living in tatters on crumbs from one week to another with no money to purchase our goods and no goods to give us in return for our goods ? Once the British decided to join, the decision for us to join was virtually made. Our trade ties and our economic necessity compelled us to follow the British in that respect.

It is interesting to look at the trade figures between this country and the Common Market nations and also to take a glance at the trade figures between this country and the EFTA countries. They are to be found in a reply to a Parliamentary Question which I submitted on 30th January last and because they are very interesting figures, I propose to quote them briefly. They show that, taking the six EEC countries, we bought from them approximately £40 million worth of goods and we sold to them £8 million worth of goods. Nobody can think that is a fruitful field into which to send travellers, especially when you remember that since 1957, in the case of each of these countries, our portion of trade with them has fallen.

Let us take Belgium, for instance, and I shall leave out the decimal points for the sake of speed. In 1957, Belgium bought from us 43 per cent. of what we bought from her; today she buys 17 per cent. France bought, in 1957, 60 per cent. of what we bought from her; today she buys 18 per cent. Germany bought 47 per cent. in 1957; today she buys 27 per cent. The Netherlands bought 22 per cent. in 1957; today it is 21 per cent. Italy, in 1957, bought 64 per cent.; today she buys 33 per cent. Luxembourg bought nothing from us in 1957. We buy from her today over £300,000 worth; she buys from us £700 worth. She takes from us 2 per cent. of what we take from her. That is the situation then so far as our trading relations with the Continent are concerned. Nobody can maintain that these are close trading relations which maintain the stability of the State or add in any significant way to the commercial expansion of the State.

Look now at the Outer Seven. In 1957, Denmark bought from us 6 per cent. of what we bought from her; to-day she buys 7 per cent. of what we buy from her. Norway bought 13 per cent. in 1957; today she buys 26 per cent. Austria bought 8 per cent. in 1957; today she buys 20 per cent. Sweden bought 20 per cent. in 1957; today she buys 13 per cent. Switzerland was approximately the same in 1957 as now, 6 per cent. Portugal bought 57 per cent. in 1957; she bought 9 per cent. in 1962. The total purchases of these seven countries from us did not amount to £2 million worth whereas we bought from them something in the region of £9 million worth.

Look now at the British figures. In 1957, we exported to Britain £79 million worth of goods and imported from Britain £96 million worth of goods. In other words, Britain took from us, in 1957, 82 per cent. of what we bought from her. The figure today —the latest available figure for the 11 months, January to November, 1962— shows that we imported from Britain £115 million worth of goods and we sold to Britain £96 million worth of goods. The percentage is 84. Britain buys from us 84 per cent. of what we sell to her.

We imported from the Six Counties, in 1957, £8 million worth of goods and we sold to the Six Counties £22 million worth of goods; in other words, they bought from us 259 per cent. of what we sold to them. Today, we import £10 million from the Six Counties and we export to them £21 million; they buy from us 206 per cent. of what we buy from them.

Nobody, except someone politically asinine, could possibly fail to realise that the real trading partner, looking at the matter in the coldest economic light, is Britain and the British market. From every angle, it seems to me it must be a better proposition to try to extend our trade with Britain rather than try to expand it with these Scandinavian countries, where our products are relatively unknown, where we have language and monetary difficulties, and where the traditional social intercourse, characteristic of our relations with the British, are sadly absent.

I fail to understand, on purely economic grounds, why we should contemplate taking any step which would put us out of line with the British, so far as their relationship with the European Common Market is concerned. It is because of that that I recently asked the Taoiseach, when the French acted as they did towards the British application, if our application stood with the British because it seemed to me inconceivable that we should attempt to get into the Common Market, with the British outside it, finding ourselves then compelled to impose tariffs on British goods coming into this country at the direction of the European Economic Community and, probably, pathetically hoping at the same time that the British will do nothing about our exports into Britain, permitting them to continue to enter free of duty. That would be expecting the British to be a simpler people than I know them to be.

Does anybody, reading these figures, see any better market in sight for us today than the British market? It may be there are markets, or hopes of markets, in some of these underdeveloped emergent states in Africa and Asia. Unfortunately, impoverishment goes hand in hand with underdevelopment and many of these unfortunate people are unable to get the barest necessaries of life, to say nothing of being able to purchase some of the high-priced agricultural and industrial goods we have for export, goods which, in the main, do not find a market in the underdeveloped countries but rather in those countries where the standard of living is reasonably high.

Up to a fortnight ago, we at least knew where we stood vis-á-vis the European Economic Community. We knew we had made an application for admission. We knew we had asked that the British application should be processed first. We were told by the Taoiseach that the moment the British application was processed, our application would be dealt with. All the indications were, during the month of December, that we would be admitted simultaneously with the British. There was a good deal to be said for that procedural arrangement since it avoided any dislocation in the trade relations between the two countries.

Undoubtedly, a new situation has now arisen. Consideration of the British application has been suspended in an atmosphere which looks as if it may be finally fired out. That is No. 1. Our application is still there. We were told it was accepted in principle. General de Gaulle, however, said through the mouth of his Foreign Minister at Brussels last week, that it seemed illogical to allow any new country in until the Common Market itself had completed its own arrangements; in other words, until the Six have made up their own minds and solved all their own problems, nobody else should be allowed in.

I wonder what the meaning of that remark is as applied to our application. While the Foreign Minister was expressing the French view in the words I have just quoted, the newspapers reported General de Gaulle as saying to Denmark that they ought to come into the Common Market— there was a place for them. So far as the newspapers are concerned, there is a place for the Danes. Inferentially and through the mouth of the French Foreign Minister, there is no place for the Irish. It may be that the situation is not quite so muddy as it appears to be. There may be some clarity and some sense in some of what the General said. But, in any event, no one here now seems to know whether our application stands or whether we are in the same category as the British because of our close relationship with them.

Bad as the statement and the attitude of General de Gaulle were from the standpoint of wrecking further consideration of the British application, after, everybody says, agreement had been reached on 70 per cent. of the problems surrounding the British application, the General went on to add the other views, views which, I think, disturb the whole structure of the European Economic Community as we originally understood it. The General has now expressed himself as wanting a small, compact European Common Market. He does not want a big Common Market of 11 or 16 countries because he fears that may fall asunder. Now according to his published views, he wants a small compact European Common Market. Having regard to the General's gyrations in recent years, one suspects the Market is to be sufficiently large to be strong and to be composed of sufficiently few to facilitate the establishment of a French hegemony over Europe. All the indications are, whether you look upon the matter from the economic, the military or the political side, that General de Gaulle wants to re-establish the French nation as he knew it in its days of glory. Nobody wants to frustrate the General in that laudable intention. Everybody wishes France well in her efforts to rebuild her economy and all the virtues she possessed at the height of her career; but people are entitled to ask "Where is all this leading us ?"

If you get into bad company, you are liable to reap the consequences of any rash acts indulged in by the company. I do not want to see this country harnessed to a France which wants to rebuild herself in the glory of her former military power. I do not think it is good for Europe that we should set out again trying to get back to the old conception of power politics in Europe. If there is any case for European unity, it is European unity based upon an acceptance by all the countries of certain minimum standards and pledged to maintain in Europe the rule of law based upon peace and sustained by social justice. But there is no case for European unity in which the big people want to show their teeth and their muscles and in which their constant aim is to make themselves bigger and stronger and to make the weak poorer and weaker.

Even some of his colleagues in the European Common Market suspect. from the moves recently made by General de Gaulle, that he is moving in a direction calculated to increase the prestige, the status and the stature of France. Nobody sees the same evidence of a desire to help the smaller countries. The reaction of some of the General's companions in the other countries, not merely to the breaking off of the negotiations but to the tendency displayed by the General in his speech last week, is an indication they recognise a stage is now being reached in which they themselves must be careful about where they are being led.

Of Course, all this talk of a small, compact European Economic Community—a limited number of people whose place of residence is in Europe —is completely contrary to the concept of European unity as envisaged in the Rome Treaty. It is completely contrary to the European Economic Community as envisaged in the old OEEC. At that time, the concept of European unity was based upon promoting co-operation, cohesion, mutual self-help, a desire to get together and to end once and for all the periodic spectacle of the bloodbaths which have disgraced Europe twice in this generation. Now, from that wide and broad concept, which at least had nobility as its target, we have drifted back and, according to General de Gaulle's speech, we want to have a small, compact European Common Market, the purpose of which is apparently to permit the French to dominate the other five, four of whom are so small from the point of view of military resources as to be no match to argue even at the conference table with a reinvigorated France.

The earlier concept of the European Common Market was an effort to establish a United States of Europe. Many felt that was too high and too far away a target to attempt to aim at successfully. There were others who thought that a federal Europe might be secured. I think the wiser people saw that the approach to the problem by the establishment of a confederation of Europe held out the best prospects of success in our time. From all these three concepts of the European Economic Community, we have now fallen back to an effort by General de Gaulle to pack six people together and to show them and tell them what to do. That is in replacement of the original European Economic Community based on the Treaty of Rome and supposedly based on the lofty sentiments contained in the Treaty of Rome.

General de Gaulle's concept of the European Common Market is completely contrary to the concept of the European Economic Community as envisaged in the Treaty of Rome. It is also completely contrary to President Kennedy's conception of the European Common Market. Now it looks like a power group with dangerous tendencies—a power group which, quite clearly from its composition, will be under French domination. The older concept of the European Economic Community envisaged economic unity as the first step and political unity as the second step. There were many who asked the question: "What does political unity mean ?" Many thought that it meant military unity. At all events, so far as we are concerned, we were committed only to economic unity, if the terms were reasonably good, and we had no commitments on the question of a military unity in Europe. Now, in the light of the General's latest views, I think we have to be doubly careful as to what a military alliance could mean ultimately for us if we are part of the European Economic Community, that is, provided the French permit the discussions to continue. Whether they will continue or not is, of course, open to question.

It is rather significant, however, that the interview given to the Press a few days ago by Professor Hallstein, while prudent and reserved, as one would expect from the Chairman of the Commission of the EEC, nevertheless contained clear evidence of regret that de Gaulle had acted as he did. But the vice-Chairman of the Commission, Dr. Mansholt, an eminent Dutchman, said bluntly—he did not put a tooth in it—that the European Economic Community is finished unless the French change their attitude.

The boat called the European Economic Community was riding the European waters peacefully a fortnight ago. With no change anybody can explain, with no anger that anybody can explain from any side other than the French, General de Gaulle has determined that this boat is not going to sail calmly any more and by his action he has encouraged the vice-Chairman of the Commission of EEC to finish the European Economic Community. Statements made by Ministers in the Dutch, Italian and Belgian Governments clearly indicate that they, too, are appalled by the change that has taken place in the approach to the European Community. What views the Germans will hold when the honeymoon with France is over is another matter but even what has already been said by people not too high up in the German hierarchy is sufficient, I think, to indicate that even the Germans themselves are disturbed by the French attitude and possibly disturbed by the marriage partner as well.

At all events, Europe has been thrown into complete confusion. It would be very interesting if one knew Russian and could get an invitation to dinner in the Kremlin these nights to hear what the discussions are like on the European situation. De Gaulle has succeeded in dividing Europe, something Mr. Khrushchev failed to do——

Put Europe at sixes and sevens.

——and not a single word did Khrushchev utter to bring about that situation, sitting in the Kremlin at peace with the whole world. With not a round of Soviet ammunition fired, thanks to his old friend de Gaulle, the situation has now been created in which Europe does not know where it is going, what next to do, whether it can take up and repair the fractured friendships left by de Gaulle. That situation has been brought about by the statement made by de Gaulle and the action which he took on the British application and which, in fact, even though he retreats on the British application, he may take on the Irish application or any other application at a later date.

So far as we are concerned, there is just nothing we can do to break the deadlock. We are a small country. Brave words uttered at Irish crossroads, outside Irish churches or even in the Irish Parliament must always be weighed against our commercial and our military strength. Tested in that way, our words make no impression and can make none in relieving the deadlock reached in Europe. It seems now, if de Gaulle has his way, that instead of a wealthy Europe planning to relieve hunger, poverty and squalor in the underdeveloped and impoverished parts of the world, some of the big Powers in Europe merely want to make themselves stronger, forgetting about the ravages of hunger and its war-creating properties in undeveloped parts of the world.

We must look at the situation again. What has happened has been a shock to Europe. We, and those who think like us, must make or strive to make the Common Market an institution which will help all partners and not merely help to make the strong stronger and the weak weaker. That appears to be the direction in which de Gaulle wants to travel. We should be in the company of people who believe that a European Common Market must have a better and nobler destiny. There is nothing we can do but wait until the anger has passed and the dust settles down.

Speaking here on many previous occasions, I committed myself to what I think was a realistic appraisal of the situation in regard to Ireland's association with the Common Market. I never concealed or never tried to conceal the fact that I believe our adherence to the Common Market will be an excruciating exercise for our industries. I can hardly see one to which that description of association with the Common Market will not apply. If I wanted any evidence of the correctness of my belief, it has been abundantly furnished in the four reports which we have received from the Committee on Industrial Organisation. There has not been a cheerful report yet. Every one of them catalogues a long list of things that must be done, states the need for hard and constant rethinking, the need for reorientation of our own approach to our geographical position as an outpost of Western Europe and of our attitude towards exports to foreign markets and emphasises that unless we take off our coats, not only will there be a very substantial lowering of the standard of living here but it may even be impossible to maintain the viability of an Irish nation. Excruciating though the exercise may be, tough and all as it may be by adhering to the Common Market, I see no other course open to us if the British decide to go in. I know of nothing else we can do, unless we are to be isolated from our best customers, as the figures I have quoted earlier clearly reveal.

We must go into the European Community if the British go in. There are possibilities of manoeuvre, and they are not bleak possibilities by any means, if the British for one reason or another stay out. I had much better deal with the British outside the Market than contemplate staying outside the Common Market if the British go in. There is nothing we can do if the British decide to go in. We can, of course, adopt an attitude of saying: "It is terrible. There is great injustice in the hands of cards the world has been consistently dealing out to Ireland. There is some special misfortune on the people occupying this island." I do not believe that. Much of our difficulty is of our own making; many problems were created because we were clear of the whole stream of intelligent thought in Europe and completely away from the realities of commercial and industrial life there while we lived here on a rock in Western Europe.

As I have said before here, nobody in Europe or elsewhere owes us a living. We are not entitled to expect that they will be sad or sorrowful merely because life will be tough here when we have it within our power to remedy the conditions of which we complain. Nobody cares how we live. The challenge is a challenge to ourselves. We must alter our methods so that, given the appropriate machinery, given intelligent industrial and agricultural leadership, given all the assistance the State can manage in a country with our resources to give to industry and agriculture we can fight back against the difficulties which the Common Market will create for us.

It is because I do not believe in trying to excite the sympathy of other people or to plead we are a small country not fully developed that I think there is only one honourable course open to us, namely, to stand up and fight with all our resources the challenge which confronts us by our adherence to the Common Market and the compulsion which will be remorselessly imposed on us to compete with countries in the centre of Europe with generations of industrial tradition behind them, with generations of finance behind them and with an experience in that field that an undeveloped country such as Ireland has not yet acquired.

I believe we should encourage our people in every possible way to gear themselves for the possibility that one day these discussions may be resumed, conceived in a European community far different in type from that which General de Gaulle envisages today, a European community in which we shall be partners in a great enterprise, a European community in which the weak will be helped and encouraged to enjoy a standard of living which today is the monopoly of the strong and the powerful. I would say to the Government and to the Taoiseach that I endorse the views he has expressed, namely, that we should continue to do everything we contemplated doing on the assumption that we were going into the Common Market.

Whether we like it or not, we have moved into an era in which "tariffs" has become a dirty word and in which people now want to conceive of industry in a situation in which free trade exists between one country and another. We cannot hold protection if the world has adopted a policy of free trade. Nobody will trade with us on the basis that we can keep out all their goods and that our goods must be let into every country in the world free just because they come from the Emerald Isle. All that stuff has no utility whatever in the Europe of 1963. We have to equip ourselves by any and every means in our power. We have to give our people the tools and the machines to make goods of the best possible quality at competitive prices. Factory leadership, whether on the floor, at the executive desk or at the director's table, must be of the highest and most competent kind. In an overall way, Government Departments associated with industry and agriculture must give every possible help.

It is very easy to make political capital out of the difficulties of a Government in a situation like this. One would think that the Government themselves would not be anxious that political capital would be made out of a situation like this. I have never read a worse speech delivered by any Minister than that delivered by the Taoiseach at the Fianna Fáil convention at Enniscorthy three or four weeks ago. One would imagine that the aim would be to encourage everybody to see this problem of the European Common Market through national spectacles. Not at all. The Taoiseach went to Enniscorthy and, in a kind of Biddy Moriarty speech down there, abused the Labour Party, abused the Fine Gael Party—and was willing to abuse any other Party, if he had thought of them—on the question of the Common Market and other related national problems.

The Taoiseach ought to recognise— or, at least, less impetuous members of the Government ought to recognise —that in this matter we are all in the one boat, whether we like it or not. If we are compelled to go into the Common Market it will be a task to defend ourselves against the reactions. We have all to help, whether on the factory floor, at the director's table or in this House, no matter where we sit, so long as the challenge is a challenge to the whole nation. I would earnestly urge that in their approach in this whole matter the Government ought to take the House and the country into their confidence, tell them of the difficulties and, by discussions, seek advice as to what is thought the best course to adopt.

The vital issue before us, as Deputies here, as people charged with the responsibility of guiding the nation in the situation now confronting it, is to protect our industries and retain our employment. Above all, we must ensure continuity of employment for those workers who have dedicated their lives to service in particular industries. If they have to be retrained or re-employed in other industries we have to make sure, by husbanding our resources, that they will not be compelled to bear the burden of this unequal struggle on their frail shoulders. A positive reassuring statement on that matter in simple language which the man at the factory bench can understand would get a great deal of goodwill for those who are charged with these difficult negotiations. At all events, what the Government must keep in mind is that the country here expects that if we have to go into the Common Market the constant and relentless aim will be to provide greater opportunities for employment for our people at home and not greater opportunities for emigration to other countries in Europe.

The Taoiseach failed to indicate to the House and to the public the very serious economic and political situation which this country faces as a result of recent developments in Brussels. It would appear from the Taoiseach's statement that this country is not at present going to press forward with its application for membership of the EEC until the position of the British application is clarified. It is clear that this country does not contemplate immediate membership of the EFTA. In such circumstances, this country faces the following position. If, in fact, the British application to join the EEC is blocked—as it would appear to be at present—in the course of the next few years our preferential position in the British markets will be corroded by the operation of free trade among the Outer Seven. Our markets, small as they are, in the countries of the Six will further be reduced by the operation of the common external tariff of the customs union of the Six and by the increase in intra-European trade among the Six. This country will find itself more and more isolated economically and politically as the years go by.

The only solution which the Government have offered is that we should hope for something favourable to turn up in the future and in the meantime should prepare by bringing about a reduction in tariffs by one-third at the end of 1965. This Micawber-like attitude which events have now forced on the Government cannot entirely be laid at the door of General de Gaulle's European policy. It is true that as a result of the decision taken by the French President, the British application has been vetoed for the present and we find ourselves, along with the other applicants, in the situation in which it appears as if our application also will be vetoed for the present.

However, I do not think the situation imposed on us by the French veto can be entirely attributed to the French position. We now find ourselves in almost complete isolation and that is, I believe, because we have failed in the past to win the type of friendship and the type of support which would have stood us well in Europe if our policies had been different. An example of what I mean was given in the Taoiseach's speech here today. One would like to have heard in the Taoiseach's speech a profession of faith in European unity. One would like to have found some of the enthusiasm and some of the hope for closer European unity as a good in itself and as a political aim that would assist, not just this country but the world in general. One would have hoped to find some of the fervour which is so frequently found among European statesmen and which has been one of the reasons European unity has gone so far in the past decade.

All this was absent and we had a factual economic and financial review of the situation facing this country. It is all too often that foreign observers reading the proceedings in this Parliament and reading the statements of our Government must come to the conclusion that our professions of faith in European unity are very hollow and that all we have been doing in the past is making a merely formal obeisance to the idea of European unity.

If in fact this country had been serious in its attitude towards this most important development in Europe over the past few years, if this country had shown itself interested in a very real way in what was going on, we would not find ourselves politically isolated as we are now and so dependent as we are on the decisions taken in Britain and elsewhere over which we have no control. If our policies in the past ten years had been different, we could have looked forward to the prospect of association with the European Economic Community which now may not be possible. If it is not possible, the fault lies within the past because we have failed to take the steps which would have made association with the EEC a matter of practical policy.

What I am saying now is not something which has arisen as a result of the past few weeks' developments in Britain. Long before the British Minister of Food came over here in March, 1961, and informed the Government that the British were going to apply for membership of the EEC and long before the tardy recognition by the Government of what was happening in Europe—when they decided, following the British application, that they, too, should apply—I said this country should approach the Commission in Brussels with a view to seeing what sort of terms this country would get if it were to apply for membership of or association with the EEC.

As has been said here today and as has been said frequently, we do not know what type of association would be available for a country like this. It is uncharted territory but the Greeks were able to negotiate it and to get association for themselves which was of considerable economic and ultimately political assistance to them. It is obvious to every Deputy and to most informed opinion outside that we cannot do anything that will interfere with our markets in Britain. Although these markets will become more and more endangered as a result of developments of a general nature throughout the world, we cannot put up a common customs tariff against British goods coming here because of the undoubted reciprocal action that would be taken by the British. However, I would have envisaged the possibility at least of the Six, if they had so wanted, agreeing to our association with the Six, on condition that this common tariff would not necessarily be applied against goods coming from Britain. This, of course, would have been a matter for negotiation. It would have been a matter on which our negotiators would have to say: "These are the terms we want. Will you give them to us?" Whether or not we would have got them is a matter for speculation, but there can be no doubt that we could have got them only if we had the goodwill of the countries of the Six.

The countries of the Six are not afraid of our economic competition. They are not afraid that their industries will collapse if they allow free trade between themselves and Ireland. The countries of the Six do not worry about the economic consequences of Ireland's adherence to the Community but they are worried about the political consequences. They do not want a country joining their Community that will be a brake on their development and they do not want another vote along with the possible British vote vetoing further economic, political, social and cultural integration, and they do not want another country that will slow down the pace of development towards unity which they deem desirable.

The former French Foreign Minister said not long ago at a meeting of the European movement when referring to the number of applicants for membership of the EEC: "We shall ask you one question: Why are you joining ? If you are joining for economic reasons, we do not want you, but if you are joining for political reasons, you are welcome." What has happened here in the past ten years has been that this country, and particularly the Fianna Fáil Government, has ignored the developments in Europe, has ignored this very important movement towards political union which I am convinced is, on balance, for the benefit of the world. The result is that we have had few friends in Europe. It is true to say, although it is undoubtedly with some concern we say it, this country counts for very little in the discussions in Europe at the present time.

As a result of the breakdown in Brussels, it may not be possible to get association on the terms we would need but we should bear in mind the possibilities that exist for the future. We are living at the present time in a state of considerable uncertainty. It is impossible to forecast with any accuracy the developments that are going to take place in the next few months or the next few years but there are certain possibilities which we must bear in mind. It is quite obvious that the countries of the Six, if association on a multilateral basis with Britain and EFTA is not possible, are going to be very much concerned with the fate of other European countries and, in particular, with the fate of Austria and Denmark. We may feel ourselves concerned with the position of our country as the result of the breakdown in these negotiations but it is nothing to the concern of countries like Austria, which is facing very serious economic consequences if a multilateral arrangement is not arrived at in which she would have a part, or if she is not able to enter into some form of association with the EEC.

Our difficulties are very small compared with the difficulties facing Denmark, who have a much different pattern of trade from ours with the Six and who are facing difficulties that a very large portion of their markets may go as a result of the breakdown in these negotiations. One of the possibilities which we must envisage for the future—indeed, one of the results which the intransigence of General de-Gaulle may bring about—is the possibility of the Six reaching arrangements with individual countries who will be concerned with the economic developments in Europe, particularly Austria and Denmark. In such a situation, this country must keep in mind as one of its possible lines of approach the possibility of applying for associate membership of the EEC.

I feel that at the present moment such an application may not be possible. This is to be regretted and I think the fault does not lie solely with General de Gaulle but lies with the policies we have been following in the past ten years. One of the matters which we must be very concerned with is the possibility that in the next few years no arrangements of a lasting nature will be arrived at between EFTA and the EEC, and as the years pass, there will be EFTA tariff negotiations and EFTA tariff reductions which will mean corrosion of our position in the British market. That will mean that our preferential position in the British market over the years is going to be reduced. At the same time, the possibility of expansion of the Six will be going on and the small exports which we have at the present time will be further reduced. That is not a future that can give us any ground for great confidence. We in fact are facing the situation where we are going to reduce tariffs and suffer all the drawbacks of free trade, without getting any of the reciprocal benefits. That is the serious situation which I feel faces us at the present time. It is a situation which we must regret and for which some responsibility at least must rest with the Government.

The Taoiseach has said we must prepare for eventual future membership of the EEC by reduction of tariffs. We must do a lot more than that. We must inform our future partners in Europe that we are not just interested in tariffs and that we are not just interested in quantity restrictions. We must inform them in such a way that they will believe us when we say that we think this movement towards European unity is one of great political consequence and one which we support on a political level. There is very little to be gained by the Government making an odd speech here and there, if in fact they do not make it clear that this facing up to the political future of Europe is a real one.

One has only to recall the reactions of the Press within the past few days, since the British application has been vetoed, to see how thin a veneer of European faith exists in this country. One has only to see the reactions of the people, the obvious delight of persons, that this application has failed, the obvious delight that we are not going to be associated with the Six, to see how thin indeed were these professions of faith. The fact is, as has been said long ago, that foreigners are not fools and the Six know what is the mood and temper of this country and the members of the European Commission know Ireland very well indeed.

It is not sufficient for this country to face the future merely by undertaking tariff reductions. There has got to be much more guidance and leadership by the Government indicating that we are truly interested in the political unity of Europe. I do not think the future of Europe is the future as envisaged by General de Gaulle and it would be a great mistake if we were to allow ourselves to turn our backs on Europe because of the faulty vision which the General appears to have. It is quite clear from the reaction of his partners in the Rome Treaty that it is not shared by them and is not shared by influential French politicians and influential organs of opinion in France and it is a vision that I do not think is eventually going to come to reality. That is shared by the founders of the European Movement which was given expression to in various forms of international co-operation since the war and is of a very different kind.

I know all the dangers inherent in the present situation in Europe. I know the difficulties that Europe may be regarded as a power bloc of a capitalist type that ignores the interests of the African and Asian states. I know Europe can be painted as a conspiracy of conservatives or by others as some sort of plan of extreme socialists to further their own ends. Various images can be made of the Europe that is possible for the future but the important thing to bear in mind is that the Europe which is being built at the present time contains the Christian tradition which we could do a considerable lot to strengthen. It could in fact work as a powerful force to bring about saner conditions in the world.

That is the type of Europe which I think will be built up. It is the type of Europe of which we should be partners and if this country indicates its willingness to do so I feel that our chances of joining the European Economic Community will be greatly increased and I feel that the economic benefits which will follow will be considerable.

I suspect that Deputy Costello's European heart has run away a little bit with his head and must have impaired either his judgment or his memory on what has happened in recent years. He suggested that this country, and this Government in particular, have by deliberate policies eliminated to some extent the friendship that would now stand us in good stead in Europe. He seems to forget that since its inception we have been members of the Council of Europe. When the Free Trade Area negotiations were undertaken, we were applicants for membership of it, and continued in these negotiations until they failed in December, 1958. Immediately afterwards, a European Free Trade Association was established, and it was believed at the time that that Association might ultimately form a bridge between the other countries in Europe and those who formed the then existing Common Market.

At that time, the Government examined seriously the advantages of becoming a member of the European Free Trade Association. It was pointed out very clearly that in so far as that Association dealt only with economic trading matters, there did not seem to be much, if any, advantage in it for us. In the first place, it did not take account of agricultural produce, and secondly, the six partners of Britain in that arrangement were seeking what we had already got to a substantial extent: the British Market which was by far the biggest trading partner of the group. Naturally, we were not going to throw ourselves on the doorstep of Europe, regardless of the economic consequences to ourselves, but we did say at that time that in so far as our interests lay in Europe, they lay with the countries then forming the European Economic Community, and that the most desirable arrangement for us would be a common market in which we would be members with Britain.

I cannot for the life of me see why Deputy Costello should suggest here today that, almost regardless of the consequences and regardless of our trade with Britain, we should, in any event, have made an approach to the European Economic Community, particularly having regard to the fact that the Leader of his Party told us that he certainly did not envisage any association by us with the Six, unless Britain were also a member. Deputy Costello suggested that it was open to us, notwithstanding Britain's efforts to form another trading association, to apply for associate membership. Again, I think Deputy Costello's enthusiasm has somewhat blurred his judgment or his recent memory in so far as General de Gaulle has said that association was negotiated with the Greeks because of the special geographical situation which Greece occupied.

If General de Gaulle was able to veto Britain's application for full membership is it not reasonable that for similar reasons, if not the same reasons, he might have vetoed our application for associate membership? Nevertheless, the fact remains that we have followed consistently what is obviously the policy favoured by the vast majority of the Irish people, that is, membership of a European Economic Community, particularly if Britain is already a member.

The contribution by Deputy Dillon this evening was rather disappointing because it was in the nature of comment on our general economic situation, very similar to, if not quite the same as, comments he has already made in the House over a few months in the recent past. The Leader of the Opposition seems to have convinced his Party that trade with Britain so far as this country is concerned flowed originally and only from the 1948 Agreement. The 1948 Agreement is a comparatively short document and it was only an amendment to some extent of, and a supplement to, the 1938 Agreement.

The 1938 Agreement was the agreement that recognised the mutual advantages that existed in trade between Ireland and the United Kingdom. Therefore, if his taunts that Fianna Fáil are at last realising the value of the British market are an indication of the attitude he is taking up in connection with our application for membership of the Common Market, they are certainly without fact or foundation.

It is gone forever.

I do not know why Deputy O'Sullivan should try to revise old clichés. If the people on this side of the House who read recent political history started slinging old statements about, sober debate in this House would go a very short distance. The fact remains that the 1938 Agreement is there, under which the mutual advantages of trading arrangements with Britain——

The 1948 Agreement doubled the exports in value and trebled their volume.

That is utter nonsense.

It doubled the exports and trebled them in value.

The Deputy should wake up.

Deputy Dillon was going to reassert another misconception this evening—but somebody interrupted him and diverted him to some other line — which Deputy Donegan tried to establish here last week, that the industrial grants commenced in this country as from 1956.

As Deputy Donegan knows, when I tried to correct him, he literally shouted me down. I reminded him of the 1952 legislation enabling grants to be given for industrial purposes which was passed in this House.

These are the misconceptions on which Fine Gael seem to be trying to base their criticism of the Government. I was sorry that Deputy Dillon tried to get the debate on that level, particularly after the very objective introduction of the debate by the Taoiseach. Deputy Dillon next tried to assert that Fianna Fáil all down the years have had a protectionist policy, that Fine Gael tried to persuade us to follow a special policy in industry, and that if we followed the Fine Gael attitude, we would now be industrially viable to take our place in any trading community in the world.

The fact remains, as was pointed out in the Taoiseach's statement, that we did no more than follow the traditional industrial policy which every country in the world has followed. In the pre-war years, tariffs were the order of the day, and not peculiar in any way to this country. Tariff walls were built up in every country in Europe against every other country in Europe in those days. Deputy Dillon suggests that Fine Gael were all for free trade. If we were, we would have no industrial employment now to try to protect against these new free trade conditions we are about to face. Apparently Fine Gael alone in the world were in favour of free trade in those days. Now Deputy Dillon begins to worry about the position in which the workers in industry in this country will find themselves, industries built up by a policy of protection which was common to every country in the world over the past 25 years. Is it that Deputy Dillon now wants to be a protectionist and that he wants to keep Fine Gael, as they always were, just out of step with current economic thinking.

As I say, I was disappointed that Deputy Dillon went along those lines. I would have expected a more objective and instructive appraisal of the situation that has developed as a result of the decision in Brussels last week. It is well established that there is grave disappointment throughout this country at that decision. People were, notwithstanding the difficulties they knew faced them, looking forward to the benefits that would undoubtedly be hard won but would flow from our becoming members of the European Economic Community. The fact that there is grave disappointment amongst the great majority of the free-thinking world, and particularly the five partners of the French in the Common Market, is indicative of the fact that this situation of uncertainty will not be allowed to persist for very long.

This brings me back to Deputy Costello's speech. He said that if we had wooed the type of friends that we should have wooed in Europe over the past ten years, then we would have found ourselves in a stronger position vis-à-vis membership of or association with the Common Market. Can there be any doubt about the quality and quantity of the friendship for Britain throughout Europe at the present time and that has not been sufficient for Britain to overcome the obstacles to becoming members of the European Economic Community? Nevertheless, the support expressed by the remaining five partners in the EEC for Britain's membership and the expressions of goodwill which were shown to us in our application for membership indicate that there is a preponderance of opinion within the Community in favour of giving proper expression to Article 237 of the Rome Treaty.

We must remember that those who conceived the Treaty had, as is widely admitted, more in mind a political than an economic concept, and that is so stated in the Preamble to the Treaty. Earlier experiences, however, in the movement towards closer political integration of the sovereign European countries indicated that it appeared to be necessary, first, to negotiate the economic concept, and, even among the Six of the European Economic Community, this proved an extremely difficult task, and even yet there are many outstanding questions to be resolved in the economic sphere and particularly in the sphere of agriculture.

It has been suggested that the "Friendly Five", as they have been described recently, might make things difficult for the continuance of the Common Market. I doubt if there could be any truth in that. The Five as well as France have this political goal in mind. They have realised how difficult it was economically to reach the degree of agreement they have achieved at the present time, and they are not likely to prejudice the status quo that has been reached in recent years. Therefore, I have no doubt that they will even at the present time try to preserve the Community, try to strengthen it, while at the same time looking towards the means whereby a wider community can be achieved.

It has been said that this situation need not have arisen if Britain had accepted the Rome Treaty as it stood. I do not think that even the most ardent supporter and adherent of the Rome Treaty would have expected any new applicant to sign on the dotted line, so to speak, on a take-it-or-leave-it basis. It is obvious that Article 237 envisaged close negotiations on the part of each applicant country to ensure that the obligations it would be expected to meet could be borne by that particular country.

With the background I have suggested exists the desire of the five other than France to maintain the Community as it stands and to expand it, to make it more outward-looking. Even France herself has declared that the Community will become more outward looking and that she wants it to be so. It is obvious that a time will assuredly come when negotiations for new membership will be resumed if the European Economic Community is to attain its primary purpose. Already, as has been pointed out, both the EEC and EFTA have reduced their tariffs by 50 per cent. as at the present time. If our application for membership had been accepted as we hoped by 1st January this year, we would have to undertake the reduction of our tariffs, the transitional period to end at the end of December, 1969, to coincide with the end of the transitional period of the EEC. Our initial cut is of only ten per cent. Therefore, even at the present time, we would have a long way to go to catch up with the impetus already effected by both the EEC and EFTA. It can be assumed that these two associations will continue to reduce their tariffs but at what rhythm we do not know. Certainly, it will not be at a slower rhythm than would permit of an ending of all tariffs between themselves by the end of 1969. It may well be quicker. Therefore, it is obvious that if we have ambitions towards a wider trading community, as would appear to be inevitable, we must continue with our tariff reductions as well.

As regards EFTA, it will be remembered that, first of all, it was suggested that its establishment in Stockholm as a result of British initiative was a counterblast to the EEC, but it was soon seen that EFTA had to be regarded as a bridge, as a means of combining the Outer Seven, so to speak, with the Inner Six; in other words, a bridge towards the integration of Europe as a whole. It may be, as is very likely, since it is still in existence, that it will resume that character. It must be remembered that all of its present members, with the exception, I think, of Finland, are applicants for either full or associate membership of the Common Market. Therefore, if it is to assume its original character and if, as has been suggested it may, in order to make it a more solid base for the bridge that has been suggested, require in its readjustments some agricultural procedures, it is obvious that we will have to consider our position vis-à-vis EFTA as well as our position in many other countries. It will be a matter, as Deputy Norton says, as soon as the dust settles, for us to look around and see what course of action we ought to set ourselves.

Whatever course of action we do take will have to be based on the facts as they emerge, facts that will justify the decision we might ultimately propose for acceptance but, in the meantime, the people have this obligation of working towards making our economy, both in industry and agriculture, more viable in free trade conditions. Even though there may be some who did not look upon our proposed membership of EEC with complacency and some who may have looked on it with some degree of hostility, although these were not many, there is nevertheless no room for the "I told you so" attitude. We will have to proceed with the work that has been put in hand by the Government in the industrial and agricultural spheres.

The work of the CIO will go on at a pace, if possible, more rapid than it has been in the past. As Deputies know, the CIO have introduced four interim reports, the first on the rate of adaptation of industry, the second on joint export marketing, the third on the provision of adaptation facilities and the fourth on industrial grants. These have been accepted completely, with two minor exceptions — the development centre proposal and the abolition of the differential between the two grant areas in the country. Incidentally, the development centre proposal has been put down for study in connection with the next economic development programme. Except for these two, there has been full acceptance in principle by the Government of these four reports and legislation is now before the House to implement the recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation.

As well as that, reports on five separate groups of industries have been published—the cotton, linen and rayon industry, the leather footwear industry, the paper and cardboard industry, the motor assembly industry and a report on the fertiliser industry which will be published in the course of a few days. The survey teams have completed their work on seven other groups of industries and they are being considered by the Committee on Industrial Organisation as a whole. These include wearing apparel, iron and steel manufacture, pottery, and sugar and chocolate confectionery and these reports will be published consecutively in the next three months, in March, April and May. In the meantime, the survey teams are engaged on 12 other industries which include the glassware industry, fruit and vegetable canning and furniture. The reports of the survey will be submitted to the CIO and will be published in conjunction with the recommendations of the Committee from May onwards, June and July to October.

In the meantime, certain industries are being surveyed by the Department of Agriculture. There is in the Department of Agriculture a committee somewhat similar to the Committee on Industrial Organisation. Certain single-firm industries are being examined by the special section of my Department set up recently, the Industrial Re-organisation Branch, and then there is a further category of industries which, by their very nature, have a type of production which it is very difficult to see being affected by outside competition.

The industries to which I have referred in respect of which reports have been published, those in which reports are under review, those in which reports are in contemplation over the next few months and the few single-firm industries to which I have referred represent 90 per cent. of the employment content of all our manufacturing industry. Each of the remaining industries which represent the remaining ten per cent. of our employment content is relatively small and they will be reviewed as soon as the survey teams have completed their report on the major industries.

In the course of the next few months, we will have a comprehensive and objective review of the capacity of our industrial arm as well as our agricultural industry to meet free trade conditions. In the meantime, the Industrial Reorganisation Branch of the Department is actively discussing the implementation of the recommendations of the Committee on Industrial Organisation with the industries concerned. I do not want to repeat anything I said in the course of the Second Reading debate last week on the Industrial Grants Bill but I think I can repeat that the new situation, rather than giving us room for complacency, lends more urgency to the necessity for our industrialists and all engaged in any way at management or worker level in productive industries to ensure that whatever limitations from which they may have suffered up to the present shall be eliminated.

I should like to exhort those industries and industrialists who may not yet have been examined by the survey teams of the CIO to have a look at themselves in order to see to what extent their performance and costings need overhaul so that when the cold winds of keen competition come, they will have, by their own action, diagnosed their own shortcomings and be in a position to get whatever Government assistance is available to meet the new conditions. It is wrong to think that the breakdown in the Brussels negotiations may have supplied a breathing space for any of our industries. On the contrary, our period of preparation may well be shortened as a result.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce has spoken about the "Friendly Five" in Europe but I cannot help thinking that if the cynical opportunism which we have adopted in the United Nations in recent years and in Europe in regard to our policies there still operates in the Government, we would swap the "Friendly Five" for the "Unfriendly One", if we had a chance of doing it. They used to say of the Bourbons that they learned nothing, that they forgot nothing. It is quite clear from the Taoiseach's speech that he has learned nothing from the debacle of our application to join the Common Market as full members. It is true, too, of other speakers here.

One of our nicer qualities as a Celtic race is the wonderful power of imaginative thinking we have, the creation of dreams and fantasies which, in people like O'Casey, Shaw, Yeats, Joyce and others, is a great virtue. Unfortunately it is something which appears to have been bestowed on our political leaders, in their capacity to build up a wonderful-sounding mythology about our country, our past, our present and our future. The great danger, in those circumstances, particularly if you live in a closed society like ours where there is a heavy censorship of Press and of television and radio, and a fairly good censorship here of Parliament, is that eventually without the advantage of a constructive Opposition, or a vocal Opposition, one tends to believe that the mythology is a reality. One mistakes the figment for the facts and the other way round. That is what happened here on both sides of the House.

We have had the tremendous collaboration of this new animal of the twentieth century, the public relations officer, in the past few years. They have with the assistance of the Government and the Opposition got together and poured out the material to create this myth about Europe, that something rather wonderful, attractive and very new and very desirable was being created. Nobody else got a word in edgeways and the other point of view virtually was not put. The handpicked persons in the various forms of communication, Press, television and radio, saw that only one view was put across. The Taoiseach is right that to a considerable extent there is considerable public opinion about this question of the EEC but, as we know now, it is grossly misled public opinion.

I am not going to deal in any detail with the Taoiseach's contribution to this essay in misleadership but there are plenty of examples of it: his refusal to consider the question of the breakdown of negotiations is one. Deputy McQuillan and I asked this question on many occasions: "What will you do if these negotiations break down?" We were told: "This is a hypothetical question and does not need any consideration". We asked about associate membership and if it would be considered rather than full membership, and we were told that the matter was only academic and did not need to be considered. We asked what was going to happen to the cost of living and what was going to happen to employment and to emigration and we were told: "We do not know". There has been no certainty on the question of agricultural produce except for the Taoiseach's statement to-day which might put a new slant on it from the point of view of the farmers, that the only commodity in which they were not already self-sufficient was beef. We pointed that out some time ago but that does not lend much scope for dairy and other agricultural produce which we were going to flood out of this country if we were in as full members and, in particular, with this mythology built up about the EEC being a wonderful thing.

Deputy Norton with his magnificent flow of English described it as based on equality, co-ordination and co-operation, and he hoped there would be a delay on the final political decisions until we were in. That certainly was wishing for the moon in the light of present events. But Deputy Norton was not exceptional in this conception of liberté, égalité and fraternité in Europe, that we were all going to go into this wonderful Elysium and create a new world and that it was all intended for the creation of a completely new ideal. That was completely contrary to simple ascertainable reality and facts.

In abusing General de Gaulle, we want to think of his action in relation to the Treaty of Rome. The Treaty of Rome was the Treaty to which we were and still are very eager to become a party. We have all read about the Treaty. We have had lectures and discussions and debates on it and in Parliament there have been hundreds of questions on it, but always the end result has been this magnificent conception of the Treaty of Rome which is going to lead to new unity in Europe, and so on. Of course, this is the same Treaty of Rome which General de Gaulle has stood on its head. Or has he stood it on its head? Is he not merely operating it? Has he not merely operated a clause in the Treaty to veto the decision of the Five? What is democratic about this organisation, the Treaty of Rome? What is democratic about this conception of a new Europe? What advantage does this offer to a tiny country which would go into this type of society in which it would have little or no influence or power at all? If we get great nations like Belgium, Italy and Germany having to bow to a decision of one man, General de Gaulle, in what position would we be? Surely it was an inexcusable misjudgment of this whole idea of membership of Europe, of acceptance of the full implications of the Treaty of Rome, for and on behalf of this country by the Taoiseach and the Leader of the main Opposition Party, to recommend to the people, as they did, that we should become a party to an organisation which was based for its whole existence on this now obviously grossly defective Treaty?

It is a Treaty which one individual in the organisation can stand on its head and set at nought all your brave objectives for Europe. All right, you say General de Gaulle will not last for ever, but who will replace him? M. Cour de Murville, who was magnificent in these negotiations? Who is to succeed Adenauer? Will it be Erhard? Will he be the person who is going to try to pursue the common good? What about one of these Belgians or what about the Italians? I do not see that anybody has any right to complain if this man implements a Treaty to which the other members have subscribed their signatures. They have done so with their eyes open. They are all over 21, all able politicians, all able to read, and they subscribed to this Treaty— foolishly, it now appears, if their protestations about Britain are true. Then, should we continue to say we want to become members of this kind of organisation?

Anybody who looks at the position in Europe, who examines De Gaulle's whole record, must know that he is not a person who has any regard at all for democracy within or outside the EEC. Look at the position in France at the moment. Bad and all as this Parliament is, with all its limitations, there is virtually no Parliament in France at all. The public has no effective voice except through the referendum. As far as Parliament is concerned, it might as well not be there. It is what General de Gaulle thinks that carries. I do not think anybody should be particularly annoyed because General de Gaulle behaves in the EEC as he does in France. The man just simply does not think along what might be called orthodox democratic lines and he does not feel that you have any right to complain if he does not choose to do so and if you cannot make him do it. We should give up this business of complaining because we appear to be jilted by a latter day Joan of Arc. This man has a right to do this and he did it and presumably if we were in a similar position and our economic interests were jeopardised or what we felt were our political rights were jeopardised, we would do precisely the same thing.

The great political advantages of the EEC, the democracy within the EEC, are demonstrated by the fact of the very little power that we would have in Parliament if we were admitted. It is now clear that as a nation we would have very little power. In the making of policy, we would have very little power. Deputy Dillon has made the case that we are right to look for membership because of our position in policy-making in relation to politics. One cannot help hearing the whirring of the wings of the Skibbereen Eagle when one listens to that kind of talk.

Let us be as fair as possible about it. Quite clearly, we are not going to be allowed to have any say in the formulation of policy in Europe. There was never any intention of it. There was never any intention of our getting full membership. I do not think anybody who examines the economic facts believes for one moment that there was.

The question, on the other hand, as to whether we should have looked for associate membership is a completely different one. We were quite prepared to abandon quite important democratic procedures here to the central commission—not the central Parliament, which virtually has no powers at all— the Assembly—but to the commission. We were quite prepared to yield up quite a lot of our powers—our sovereignty. Equally, our courts were to be dominated by the central court. It is quite certain that legislation in this House would be capable of reversal as a result of our full membership of EEC. These were all very significant and very important considerations which did not get any serious consideration from the people because they were not put to the people at all. I doubt if they would have felt quite so enthusiastic about this whole idea of the European Economic Community if these facts had been put to them.

One of the other ideas about this alleged nostrum for prosperity by these mostly conservative capitalist societies was that there was a boom in Europe and the boom was due to this removal of tariffs and so on and the establishment of a customs union. Of course, this again does not stand up to any kind of serious analysis at all. The real boom in Europe took place before the establishment of the Common Market at all, largely due to factors in Europe. The fact that they had to re-build Europe was the first obvious one. The second factor was that America put a tremendous amount of money into Europe and helped to create the general idea of a West German renaissance or industrial resurgence, or whatever you like to call it.

I think it was unwise of people to try to say, "The EEC works; it is a magnificent organisation." I do not think they gave the EEC a serious chance to show whether it could work or not, to show whether it could radically change the pattern of trade in Europe. If their propaganda had been seriously examined by new participants it is questionable whether they would have swallowed the assertions made. Possibly the hardest truth of all to swallow is the one announced a couple of days ago, that the community is now working into a trade deficit of about £5,000,000 with the rest of the world. It is now becoming apparent that this new conception of alleged free trade is not free trade at all. We must know that very well now. This new conception of alleged free trade as a solution for all our worries, or worries in a capitalist type economy is not true at all.

The whole idea of the Common Market, without a doubt, was a conception for which there must have been some political basis. It might have been the idea of an instrument in the cold war. That might have been the American conception. I do not know. That is certainly radically changing now. I should like to deal with that later on. It is not any longer as true as it was.

In relation to trade, there were a number of these countries, former colonial countries—Belgium, France, Germany, Italy, particularly Belgium, France and Britain, which you could say to a certain extent had lost the cheap labour of the colonies, had lost the cheap raw materials of the colonies, were not able to process them and sell them, because of the cheap raw materials, with an advantage over their American, Japanese and other competitors in the world trade markets. All that cheap raw material went. All that cheap labour went. The result is they are thrown back on an internal economy. They have to try to survive on an internal economy. Most of them built up quite substantial superstructures of welfare societies of one kind and another and they are particularly costly to run and their particular economic system is not able to bear this strain. The result of that is that they are now trying to create this new colossal captive market in Europe where they can sell their goods, eliminate one another as they will, as cartelisation goes on. The weak will go to the wall. The powerful units will get together. The German-French cartel knows no land boundaries. They will all get together and you will get the survival of a few and they will have this 170,000,000 captive market to which they can sell at any prices they like.

I do not think there was ever any serious intention to have free trade because, first of all, every one of them, while they took down the barriers against one another, had to accept the putting up of barriers against third countries. The EFTA group of countries, as the Taoiseach said this afternoon, did try to negotiate with EEC some sort of trading relations and were told they were not wanted. They were told this was not the idea.

The truth of monopoly is that if there are too many members in a monopolistic club it is no longer a monopoly; it vitiates the whole idea of monopoly. The result is they want to keep it in a very tight, small grouping.

That is, of course, what they have succeeded in doing, so I think it is very wrong of us in the first instance to put out these false ideas about the concept of the EEC. With what little experience I have, I never believed we would get full membership. I am not an economist at all. I make no pretence to being one, but there seem to be a few simple facts which go to create the inescapable conclusion that, in our own interests, we could not go in as full members because, if we did, our industries would be levelled within months due to the tremendous efficiency of the European farmers and cartels of one kind or another.

The issue here is not our failure to get full membership. I think that would have been a disaster. The big trouble arises from the British failure to get full membership, and nobody would have any quarrel at all with the Taoiseach if he had taken the line in this instance which Deputy Dillon and, I think, Deputy Norton, took—that we must do as Britain does. That is the hard, unpleasant, economic reality: that is where 75 per cent. of our trading is done. Obviously, there could be no recreating that pattern of trade with anybody else without appalling dislocation in the country. Therefore, we must go whichever way Britain goes. We may regret it, but it is the truth that over the past 30 years our Governments have made no serious attempts to create independent alternative viable industrial or agricultural arms. Not having done that, you cannot just have doctrinaire reasons for saying we do not want to cut free from Britain irrespective of the human suffering that must follow.

That is the big reason we have in mind as to why the Government would have been wiser in the first instance to look for associate membership, and the objectionable part of the Taoiseach's behaviour over the past two years is his megalomania in the face of visiting journalists and others—that we could stand on our own feet as full members of the EEC without British membership. It was so outrageously and palpably untrue that one felt this man must be so completely out of touch with reality that he was a highly dangerous person to have dealing with such a very delicate situation.

That is one of the main objections we had to the Taoiseach's behaviour over the past couple of years. He must have known better than anybody else because of his much greater experience of those things than any of us. He must have known that was demonstrably untrue. After all, a person in his position does have a considerable amount of authority which should command considerable respect, but you cannot respect somebody who makes statements of this kind, statements intended to mislead and misinform not only these visiting people, who do not matter a damn anyway, but our own people. For that reason, I think his behaviour in this respect has been unforgivable.

On this question of associate membership, which is the proposition we on this side have advocated, we appreciate fully the difficulties of trying to become any kind of member of this Community and retain our link with the British market. It is such a presupposition, such an obvious fact, that it did not require discussion, but assuming this difficulty could be overcome, we favoured associate membership. The fact that we have not got full membership is not surprising or, indeed, disappointing, but the fact that Britain has not got membership in present world circumstances is, I think, a terribly serious development.

I believe the second very serious development is the fact that she—and I am looking at it from our point of view now—faces an uncontrollable business recession. Not since 1940 has she had upwards of 1,000,000 unemployed. That is very sad from her point of view, from the point of view of the unemployed. Nobody can gloat about it at all. But it is particularly dangerous from our point of view because the Taoiseach and the House must realise that if Britain does not pull out of this position the very fact that our economic ties are so close means that we will also go to the wall should serious economic recession continue to occur in Britain. We, of course, believe it will for as long as the Tories are there. We believe it is merely the end result of Tory Government. However, from our point of view very much more serious activity will be required by the Government than anything the Taoiseach suggested today.

I believe it would be wrong for the Taoiseach to go on with his application for full membership. He should seriously consider our proposition for associate membership and bear in mind the statement of Dr. Hallstein, the head of the Commission, that associate membership could mean anything from one per cent. to 99 per cent. membership. Somewhere else Dr. Hallstein said that associate membership was like a suit made to measure. I do not think the Taoiseach has made any case against associate membership and Deputy Dillon's suggestion that should we become an associate member, we must ultimately accept full membership falls to the ground. It is simply not true as we now know from a statement by the Taoiseach a couple of days ago.

Deputy Norton and Deputy Costello made the point that we would not have access to the European Social Fund as associate members. That is a very important consideration because that fund was designed for use in the retraining, resettlement and general easing of difficulties of unemployed persons or persons rendered redundant through changes following membership. It is, however, untrue to say we would not have access to that Social Fund. The Taoiseach has made it clear that, while he cannot say yes or no, there is no strict protocol or doctrine on this whole question of associate membership; but one thing is clear. Nowhere has it been said that you may not have, within the Treaty of Rome, access to the European Social Fund if you become an associate member. It is possible, therefore, that we could negotiate access to the European Social Fund, if we became associate members.

One of the points which flows from that is the question of the advantage of associate membership over full membership. The main one is that, instead of having seven years for dismantling one's tariffs, one would have from 12 to 22 years in which to do so. Everybody knows what little regard I have for industries here, because of their organisation; at the same time, I believe they should be given a longer period for dismantling, not for their sakes but for the sake of the men and women working in them. There are approximately 100,000 engaged in them, about 40 per cent., and these may lose their jobs if there is an abrupt dismantling of tariffs because of our going for full membership rather than associate membership. For that reason, I believe we should go for associate membership. If it is true that one might not have access to the European Social Fund because one was an associate member, it seems reasonable to assume that if one had from 12 to 22 years in which to dismantle one's tariffs, one would not need access to the Fund because there would be relatively little disruption in trade and business and, consequently, very little redundancy.

There was a time when the case was made—I do not hear it any more— that we have a particular mission in Europe, and we have to fulfil that mission. Because of that, we want full membership. Other countries which have looked for associate membership are Sweden, Switzerland, Austria, Portugal and Spain. If Portugal and Spain are prepared to accept associate membership, with their particular outlook, which, I suppose, has a good deal in common with our own, with all its advantages and disadvantages, we should not set ourselves up as the cheer-leaders in Europe and we, too, should be prepared to accept associate membership. The Taoiseach would have the support of the TUC in this suggestion of associate membership. The motion which they passed in Galway last June suggested that it would be wiser for the Taoiseach to look for associate membership or, at least, to examine seriously the whole question of such membership.

I do not know whether the Taoiseach will make any attempt to answer this case. He has certainly made no case that I know of against acceptance of associate membership. The Greek Government have negotiated a magnificent treaty. They have access to the European Investment Bank. They get 125,000,000 dollars which they can repay over the next 25 years, but which they can spend in the next five years. They have the advantage of free movement of labour and capital, if these are advantages. They have the right—this is very important, I think, from our point of view—in relation to certain of their vulnerable industries, not only to maintain but to raise tariffs, if they so wish. That seems to me to be a very important advantage. There is also an arrangement whereby, if they get into trouble during the period in which they are merging their economies with EEC, an investigation committee will consider the position, easing things for them, and then, if they want it—I do not want it for Ireland—Greece can have full membership, if she so desires. If, during the period of associate membership, Greece creates the prosperity which will make her able to stand on her own feet and compete as a full member, with all the dangers that connotes and which they clearly recognise, she can become a full member and she can have the advantage of full membership, if she wishes. Deputy Costello spoke of de Gaulle saying that Greece was accepted because of her special geographical position. I do not think anyone seriously believes that to be a valid point. All these other countries—Austria, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and Switzerland—are all looking for associate membership and, from what one can gather, they stand a reasonably good chance of getting it. The main advantage of associate membership seems to me to be the fact that there are no strings attached to it. There is a good chance that you could negotiate practically any kind of agreement which would take cognisance of the fact that yours is a delicate, a backward, or an underdeveloped economy.

I think the Taoiseach has always had a bee in his bonnet on this question of taking associate rather than full membership because it might be reckoned that full membership has in it a sort of status symbol in modern Europe and the Taoiseach wants to proclaim to everybody that he has succeeded in the past 30 years in building industry and creating prosperity here. It should be some balm to his sensibilities that Sweden, the most progressive country in Europe, is accepting associate membership. The Taoiseach should not hesitate to look for associate membership.

The position here has its roots, of course, in the activities of both Governments since 1922. I should hate Deputy Dillon to think that because we have now come round to what he calls his idea, the Cumann na nGaedheal idea, of free trade, that this is a vindication of Cumann na nGaedheal policy from 1922 to 1932. That would be grossly untrue. That would be an overstatement. While there were difficulties in the twenties because of the creation of a new State, a new society, and so on, it cannot be said that free trade gave any appearance of creating prosperity here by the year 1932. Both Parties who took these labels and stuck them on their plan of prosperity made similar mistakes—those who said free trade is the answer to all our problems and those who said that protection is the answer. That is why I said when opening that, as they said about the Bourbons, they learned nothing and forgot nothing.

The depressing thing about this debate so far is that in the Taoiseach's statement and in the reply to it by Deputy Dillon, there is no appearance at all of any new thinking on the part of either side. It must be a very humiliating experience to the Taoiseach and those behind him to find him mouthing the same half-truths— I am being generous when I call them that—about the advantages of free trade and that this is going to make a difference. Of course, it has not made a difference. This is not the change that could make the difference.

The Taoiseach has been endeavouring to make the best possible case in support of his present decision to throw open our industry to free competition. The best case against it, I suppose, is made by the various CIO reports. They have carried out a pretty objective— though defective for various reasons— examination of our industries as they find them. I do not care what the Taoiseach may protest about these reports. In his private analysis of them, I believe he must come to the conclusion that anyone who can do simple addition or read simple English must come to the conclusion that our industry is in a parlous state where the question of meeting serious outside competition is concerned.

In theory, I should be in a position to gloat in finding myself able to say that, after 30 years of private enterprise capitalism, the results are quite disastrous. I am not gloating, but that is quite true. I am merely asking both sides of the House to accept these facts, these realities, and to do some new thinking—to do some new creative thinking on the problems ahead of us in the desperately serious circumstances now facing us. There is no doubt that this is a situation in which nobody should attempt to make any political capital at all. It is a time in which there must be the most cool-headed examination of the terribly serious dilemma in which the Government now find themselves.

There is the danger that the two sides will become trapped by their own historical associations of one kind or another, by their assertions in the past, by their failure to change their ideas and their minds and that they may not face the really serious problems before them. As I said, the Taoiseach makes the best possible argument on this whole question of throwing open these still relatively underdeveloped industries — industries certainly undermechanised, inefficient and non-automated—to the full force of even backward British competition. Of course, they will not be able to stand it. I appreciate the Taoiseach is now in a very serious situation. In so far as events have taken hold of him, he is no longer master of his circumstances any more. He was in the past 30 years; I do not think he is now. However, to the extent to which he can ameliorate the impact of free trade on Ireland, I think he should try to do so.

I will recall to him statements of his here:

If we are going to get development here we must secure Irish industrialists not merely against unfair competition from abroad but also against that form of competition which can be undertaken by a branch factory established here.

Also:

These manufacturers do not intend to avoid competition... they want to be secured against competition of a kind against which they could not stand and against which they should not be expected to stand.

And again:

It would be an easy matter for any very large, very efficient, financially powerful firms which operate in the neighbouring country and which have been supplying this market to put out of business any Irish firm which offered anything like serious competition to them.

Those are all statements made by the Taoiseach speaking on the Control of Manufactures Act on June 14th, 1932. It is, I suppose, pathetic in some ways. It is quite clear he really believed that this question of protection was going to make the difference. He promised in various other quotations that this would end unemployment and emigration—that it was the answer to all our problems.

When going through these debates, I was interested in one remark he made to Deputy McGilligan. He said:

When I took over, there were 86,000 unemployed. That is a very high figure. Already it is starting to go down.

He went on with his usual self-assurance. The interesting thing is this. A week or so ago, there were 69,000 unemployed and last year 23,000 emigrated. That is a total of 91,000 or 92,000, 30 years after he promised to get rid of 86,000 unemployed. In the interval, the best part of 1,000,000 people had gone out of the country. I am not producing these figures in order to discomfit the Taoiseach. He is well able to listen to these things and I suppose they will not make much difference to him. I am producing these figures in order to try to show that this reliance on a slogan— it was protective tariffs at that time and it is free trade today—will be disastrous from the point of view of the country.

In addition to this failure to create employment and bring prosperity, it has been found impossible to get the conditions which I suppose everybody wants—better living conditions for older people, better educational opportunities for everybody's child, irrespective of whether he has money or not, better health services and so on. Over the last 30 years there has been complete failure to create prosperity and employment and to deal with emigration in any significant way. In fact, the reverse is true. When we took over, there were 16,000 a year emigrating. A couple of years ago, there were 40,000 or 50,000 and there have been 250,000 in the past six years.

The position is a very serious one, but it is not going to be remedied by the new nostrum—a revival of the old Cumann na nGaedheal idea—the free trade idea. It is quite clear our economic ills go very much deeper than that, and that economic stagnation has little or nothing to do with the question of whether there has been free trade or not over the past 30 years. It is due primarily to the fact that the Taoiseach, with his Government, and the Opposition, with their Governments, have placed their reliance on the ability of what we call private enterprise capitalism to create this prosperity, to create full employment. It has not done so. It will not do so. We will find it and, of course, Great Britain is finding it.

The sad thing is that, while these self-evident truths cannot be denied by anyone, we get the Taoiseach coming in here with the same completely meaningless platitudes about putting our shoulders to the wheel or words to that effect. It will not make any difference but there is this very important difference on this occasion. He said that, and his successors have said that year after year for the past 30 or 40 years. They have all promised the millennium this year or the year after and it has never come but there is this great difference now—we are back to the thirties again. There is mass unemployment in Britain. There is an Act on the Statute Book in Britain allowing them to keep out people who have not got jobs. I cannot see why, if they are really put to it, they will not decide that the time has come when they must restrict the entry of our people into Britain, unless they have a definite job to go to or impose some other prohibition which would make it impossible for our people to enter Britain.

Has the Taoiseach thought of that? He is the person who must think of it. I believe he is the person who will be faced with the problem. The rate of national production is decreasing, from six per cent. to five per cent. to four per cent. as the years go by. He completely inflated the advantages of the six per cent. or five per cent. increase of some years ago—whatever it was. He overlooked what he had been told in his own little booklet, Programme for Economic Development which said that what would happen would be an initial era of prosperity. That was, of course, a taking-up of the unused industrial capacity of the country. There was an upsurge of national output and now we have flopped back quite clearly into a position of stagnation.

Even if this were not true, even if Irish industry were booming, the Taoiseach cannot escape from the desperately serious repercussions of the serious recession of British industry. In the light of that, I think it is absurd for the Taoiseach to talk about continuing to look for full membership or to suggest that the solution to our problem is to get on this mythical bandwagon of free trade. It is not the answer. Things could not be as simple as that and certainly are not.

I do not want to rub in the many points I could rub in against the Taoiseach—for instance, his very impatient manner with us over the months as we have tried to elicit the facts from the point of view of the public. In fact, we were trying to do our jobs here as Deputies. I am not going to go back on those occasions but I have them all, 24 or 25 occasions on which he could be shown to be demonstrably wrong in his assessment of the situation and these are on the record. There is only one point that I think is serious in the present context of our consideration, that is, his statement today in reply to Deputy McQuillan that at no time had we looked for economic integration with Great Britain.

This is serious now, of course. It was a proposition put forward here by one Deputy and it has been put forward by a number of commentators in the public press. The position is that this matter was discussed on an Adjournment Debate at columns 38, 39, 40 and 41 of Volume 181 in which this suggestion to which Deputy McQuillan referred was considered. It was put forward by the Agricultural Marketing Committee in their final general report published in 1959 and it said:

The entry into some form of economic association with Britain which will secure continued and unrestricted access for Irish agricultural produce to the British market if possible with British guaranteed prices linked to an increasing range of our products...

Possibly the Taoiseach may comment on this in his reply because I think it has serious implications for our future decisions. He said at column 40:

The matter was discussed in a general way at a meeting at Ministerial level, a meeting which I attended with the Minister for Industry and Commerce...

Today, he said it had not occurred.

Agricultural integration.

What is the difference? Surely agricultural integration is one of the most important kinds of integration we could look for? The matter was discussed. If Deputies want to examine it, they can do so themselves. The Taoiseach continued:

On the resumption of our negotiations, the British Ministers stated that they had very fully considered our proposals but for a number of practical reasons were unable to accede to them.

I think that is a serious consideration. It is true that the proposition was made. The Taoiseach was there when it was discussed. The proposition was sent to the British Government and considered and rejected by them. I do not know what effect that will have on the Taoiseach's future negotiations in regard to our agricultural position, particularly if the EFTA developments continue and if the preferential positions in the British market are reduced and we find ourselves facing the very formidable competition of the Scandinavian and other countries.

I should like to discuss briefly the Taoiseach's decision on the whole question of our attitude to Europe and European integration for which he was criticised by Deputy Costello. I must confess that I think Deputy Costello's criticism was not merited when he suggested we had not gone far enough in our protestations of loyalty to the idea of European integration and loyalty to the declared objectives in regard to Europe, all, of course, boiling down to the abandonment of our position of neutrality. I think the Taoiseach made it frighteningly clear that we intended to abandon our position of military neutrality. The ideological position was always there and everyone recognised and accepted it but the idea of abandoning military neutrality was a quite different one. I think the Taoiseach made it quite clear, I believe, as a bargaining counter, in the hope of getting into the Market that we would abandon our position of neutrality. I think the Taoiseach should seriously reconsider the decision. It is a very retrograde decision. It is retrograde because, first of all, over the years since the State was formed, we have taken up a non-committed position, a neutral position, wherever we could, whenever we could. For obvious reasons, a tiny society such as ours, with a few thousand soldiers, has no right to get involved in these world cataclysms of wars. There is nothing we can do or contribute except the dead. Our people would be killed and we could not contribute anything significant. That was the position taken up by the Government and by the Opposition in 1939 and 1945. I support that idea. It was a sound idea to retain our neutrality at that time. The case made then for keeping our neutrality was a good and valid case, an unanswerable case. The case is even stronger now. Whatever we could have done in Europe with the ports at that time—in the European anti-Hitler war—we could do virtually nothing at all in the present circumstances. It would be suicide on our part to look for military involvement in the present cold war, or whatever you like to call it.

I do not know why the Taoiseach— he said he was not asked to abandon neutrality—volunteered to do so and volunteered with such apparent enthusiasm, without any reservations at all. This was a really fantastic decision on his part. I am interested to know to what extent that still stands. What is the position in regard to our neutrality in the new situation? Over the years since we went into the United Nations, one of the wonderful things has been the development of a certain prestige for the Irish contributors there. A certain amount of good work was done by them in the discussions at the United Nations but only up to the time they retained a non-committed position and remained neutral. They became an honest broker in a number of disputes and to that extent they were useful in a world which is faced with the terrible possibilities of nuclear war. It was a very valuable position for us. I think it was recognised and accepted that a small society like ours is not wanted to take sides. We would be largely in the way in any sort of war. People would recognise that Switzerland, Austria, Sweden, Ireland and such countries have a right to be neutral.

We have very great disadvantages from our geographical and numerical size. Let us concede that this could be considered as one of the few advantages of being a tiny society, in that the others would not say: "You are afraid to fight; you should make a stand." They know that this is a patently absurd proposition. For that reason, we did have the respect of many of the great nations of the world because we happened to stand there in the centre and when a decision came up which none of the cold war participants—the Americans, the Russians, the British or their European adherents—could be involved in, it was a great thing to have these small countries like Sweden, Ireland and India to send troops to help to police the various troubled areas. For that reason, our prestige was very high at the United Nations and elsewhere.

Then we decided we would abandon this position. To my mind, we have gained nothing at all. We have lost very much by our decision to do this. There are just under 50 neutral countries. There is nothing wrong, bad or evil in being neutral. It was good enough for us for the best part of 40 years. What happened to it in the past two years?

The neutral countries recently solved, or helped to solve, the IndoChina dispute. It was their proposition which came to be acceptable to both of the peoples involved in the conflict of the time. Again, the TUC was in favour of that. The Taoiseach one time said somewhere or other that he had seen no indication of any public anxiety about the possible effect of full membership of EEC on our foreign policy. I would remind him that the TUC did say that we should not accept any other military commitments except those arising out of our position at UNO. As I reminded him before, Mr. de Valera, the President, took a very clearcut stand on the whole thing, as against looking for any commitments other than any we had entered into at the United Nations.

One of the most lamentable decisions by the Taoiseach was a decision in regard to the campaign which he initiated in this House against those of us—there were a couple of us and I suppose, to some extent, the Labour Party—who took a stand on this question of neutrality. The suggestion was that those of us who were not neutral, who were opposed to abandoning neutrality, were either anti-Christian or Communist. The Taoiseach did the Dáil and democracy a very great disservice when he decided to take that line in regard to two of us, Deputy McQuillan and myself, because we put forward this view, consciously believing it to be one which was held by quite a number of people outside—we do not know how many. We had the TUC decision which represents many important people in the country. We had Mr. de Valera's decision, and Deputy Aiken is on record as taking a very strong stand on neutrality.

I do not wish to use a harsh word, but it was very wrong of the Taoiseach to take this decision of initiating what afterwards became a fairly unpleasant McCarthyite campaign carried out by the daily, evening and Sunday newspapers. It did great damage in the country and undermined the confidence of many people and created great unwarranted scares. I know, and I am sure the Taoiseach knows very well, the extent of the Communist position here. He must know very well that the position of Communism in Ireland is quite an important consideration. I am sure he knows very well from his own information that the overt organisation which he knows of, the Workers' League, is not a bit important in the political field here. It is of no consequence at all. When an individual stands for election, he collects around 150 or 200 votes and obviously represents nobody. The Taoiseach also must know that there is, on the other hand, a very strong—not numerically but in personnel—Communist organisation in positions of authority. I think it has been their decision in Ireland to take over where it hurts.

This does not arise in the debate on the Common Market.

To tell the truth, I could not see how it arose when the Taoiseach first introduced it. However, he did introduce it.

I am telling the Deputy that it does not arise now.

I am answering the charges made by the Taoiseach that the "anti-neutral" was a person who was pro-Communist by implication The Taoiseach knows very well what the position is here. He knows quite well that there are still people who have taken over positions of some power in communications, in various newspapers, television, radio, the trade union movement and so on.

At the same time, it seems to be particularly wrong on the part of the Taoiseach to hunt people like us with that sneer, when he also knows that during the last election, not only was I hunted by his colleague, Deputy MacEntee—which was quite fair—but that I was also the main target in Dublin for the Communist Party who campaigned as strongly as they could, within their resources, against my election, for the extraordinary reason that they reckoned that it was much better not to have a socialist of my kind in Dáil Éireann—and I have proof of this—and that it was very much more valuable to them to have Deputy Aiken as Minister for External Affairs. I am not suggesting that Deputy Aiken has any leanings in that regard. He has not. I am not suggesting that he is in any way pro-Communist. He is not. He is very anti-Communist. For the pursuit of their objectives, that is the way they worked it out.

There is a quotation which I should like to give again because it is particularly apposite. It is from the Official Report and it reads:

Deputies who have been for six months past preaching against Communism in all moods and tenses and trying to agitate the people into believing that there was imminent danger of a Communistic uprising here will, I am sure, support this Bill because one of the surest means of promoting the growth of Communism in this country is to permit here the development of that kind of capitalism which breeds Communism.

The reference is Column 1238, Volume 42 of the Official Report of 14th June, 1932.

I am not clear how it is relevant to this motion.

It is relevant to the extent that when the Taoiseach 30 years later proceeds to indulge in exactly the same sort of witch-hunt, he is ignoring the fact that one of the dangers of Communism—if there are any dangers of Communism—arises from the type of society which Deputy Lemass and his colleagues have created here over the past 30 years.

Pro-Communism or anti-Communism does not seem to arise on this motion.

On a point of order, did it not arise when the Taoiseach spoke in connection with the decision on the Common Market and said that those Deputies who disagreed with the Government's view on the Common Market were Communist-inspired?

I do not know whether the Taoiseach used any reference to Communism at all. I do not know, but whoever used it, that would not make it relevant.

Not when he is answered by two Deputies in the House——

The Deputy may hold that opinion——

The Deputy will hold that opinion of the Chair.

That is all right; I am satisfied. It is not relevant.

The Chair is being advised at this stage.

That is quite wrong.

I want to make it clear that you have just come into the House and you are not familiar with the discussions that have taken place and you are being advised by people who are biassed.

I am not advised by anyone.

I saw it being given.

The Deputy is wrong, absolutely wrong. No one spoke to me since I resumed the Chair.

I have my eyes and I can see.

I repeat that the Deputy is absolutely wrong. No one spoke to me since I resumed the Chair.

I want to make the point that the case has been made that this whole conception is one which is generally designed to oppose Communist intrusion into Europe and Communist dissemination in Europe.

Pro-Communist or anti-Communist does not arise on this motion.

I wish that were true.

On a point of order, is it not a fact——

I have already ruled. I will not listen to the Deputy any further. He has charged me with taking advice from a source. I have told him that that is absolutely wrong and he has not accepted my word. I will not listen to him any more.

The Leader of the Opposition Party——

I will name the Deputy to the House if he insists on obstructing.

The Chair has lost his temper.

The Deputy heard me that I will name him if he insists on obstructing.

I can hold my temper.

I say that the Deputy must.

The Ceann Comhairle cannot.

At any rate, the quotation was relevant presumably in 1932.

I have ruled that it is not relevant now and the Deputy must accept that.

I intend to accept it on this occasion.

It is a disgraceful ruling.

I should like to know from the Taoiseach what he proposes to do in the new position created by the remarkable change in Europe which has followed the decision by General de Gaulle not to allow Britain to become a member of the European Economic Community and in the new directions which the new European policy has taken? General de Gaulle apparently does not seem to be amenable to the same ideas as dominate the Chancelleries of practically every other country in Europe.

In the Sunday Times, a paper quoted earlier by the Taoiseach as a reputable paper, General de Gaulle is said to have leanings towards the reorientation of European policy towards Russia and away from America. That is generally believed. He wants to create and get Soviet acceptance of France leading the third force in Europe in return for the exclusion of the influence of America. There is no reason to believe that this new development will not go on as General de Gaulle seems to be a sort of indestructible human being and very obstinate. If he decides that there is to be a united Europe extending from the Atlantic to the Urals, including Soviet Russia and the Eastern European countries, what attitude do we take?

It seems to me that this is an important consideration, one which we referred to on a number of occasions when we asked the Taoiseach why he would not seek to have discussions or negotiations carried out concomitantly for political and defence commitments involved in the EEC. Why was it that, though we had negotiations in relation to trade, we made no attempt to see what the political future of this Europe was likely to be or what were likely to be the military commitments of full membership? He always seems to have shied away from this whole conception; yet we have this proposition by him, which is still there, that we should go into Europe as a full member.

We do not really know what is the intention of the new Europe. We never even knew the intention of the old Europe. We put our own interpretation on it and we assumed that they were going to march into Russia and destroy the Russian countries. That is apparently completely untrue. We have now this completely new conception. We have tried to pretend to ourselves that this was an outward-looking society; that it was likely and intended to try to create world prosperity and interested in the poor people of Europe and in the underdeveloped countries of Africa, the Middle-East and so on.

As I said earlier, this is part of the mythology we built up about the EEC and we are now so annoyed that they will not believe it, as we did. There was no question of any serious interest on the part of those six countries in the underdeveloped countries. The whole conception of the EEC was the erection of trade barriers against those primary-producing countries, making it difficult for them to sell to Europe and, as a result of that, making it difficult for them to expand, develop or create any kind of healthy economy. It was not any kind of benevolent society at all, as we are now finding because we are in the same group as the underdeveloped countries.

We are finding that we are to be excluded, and if need be, we will go to the wall and nobody in Paris, Bonn or Brussels or anywhere else will look over his shoulders to see what is happening to this little offshore island in the Atlantic. They do not bother about Britain, and certainly do not bother about us, and that was the truth when we were making a pretence that this was a wonderful new conception, a new society which was going to do so much for the world. We must have known that that was completely untrue, that it was not a bit interested in the underdeveloped countries, and for that reason we should have hesitated before deciding to become a party to it. But, of course, we were so avaricious for what we believed were to be the advantages of membership that we did not care who got hurt as long as we got in.

We do not know who is going to dominate in the years ahead the various countries who have become members or will happen to become members of the Six. Is Adenauer going to dominate after de Gaulle has gone? Who is to follow de Gaulle and what are his views? Who is to follow Adenauer and what will be his views? We are also faced with a very interesting situation which should concern people here who appear to be so concerned about Communism. What happens in Europe when both Adenauer and de Gaulle go? As we know, de Gaulle took over in a position of tremendous persistent instability in France. Do they revert to that position of instability? Similarly, Italy was in little better position, and I do not think anybody would give much for the position in regard to Germany, with its whole background, its whole sordid hinterland of history.

What is its future action likely to be? What are they going to decide about Berlin? How are they going to resolve that serious problem and the whole problem of the reunification of Germany? Who is going to be sacrificed in the resolution of all those different problems? What part would we play if de Gaulle takes this view in regard to the whole idea of the EEC? What view will this person in the future take on this great fundamental weakness in the Treaty of Rome, this right of veto? What power might be left to a tiny country like ours in those circumstances? Are we right to look for full membership in this type of society with all this appalling instability which is inherent in virtually each of those different communities in the centre of Europe? What great advantages do they offer to us?

In addition to that, when those people go and we are full members of a community—and some Deputies might do some heavy thinking on this —we would become full members of a community which has in its organisation France, Belgium and Italy, three of the strongest Communist countries in the world. What position does that then create for this society that is so anxious to fight for Christianity and against Communism? Surely we must take a long-distance view of this? Decide what you like, but, for goodness sake, do some long-term thinking for a change.

It seems to me that the Taoiseach and his Government find themselves in a position in which they can see a continual deterioration in our situation, a gradual frightening reduction in the rate of output, an increase in unemployment, a continuation of emigration and the largest adverse trade balance we have ever had. Taken together with the British position of recession, it is a desperately serious situation. It is an emergency and it should be treated as one. First of all, the Taoiseach should reconsider his attitude to the tariff dismantlement rate. The hardship which the present announced rate will have on employment in our industries will be quite disastrous and is avoidable. It is his own fault that our industries are so sick that they are not able to stand up to competition. He has refused to face this question of the feather-bedding of tariffs over the past 30 years. He has refused to grapple with it, and turned away from it, and the main Opposition have turned away from it on every possible occasion. Now, as I said a year and a half ago, he is facing the moment of truth and must take some decisions. He should try at all costs to save the employment of great numbers of workers which will be involved if he removes tariffs too rapidly.

Nobody seriously believes the suggestion of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that they are going to carry out the recommendations of the CIO reports and absorb into other industries redundant workers. The simplest refutation of that is the 69,000 at present on the unemployment list. If it is as easy as they say to retrain and re-employ redundant workers, then they have 69,000 whom they can start with, and they know quite well that there is no question of absorbing those 69,000 already unemployed, never mind the 50,000 or 100,000, or whatever figure you like, who will be on the labour market as a result of lowering the tariff walls and opening our inefficient and incompetent industries to outside competition.

I think that the Taoiseach must face the reality that private investment in industry has been the cardinal failure over the past 30 years. Investment in industry taken with good marketing is the secret of the whole question of employment and prosperity in any society. We have not had that private investment in Irish industry. We have got to face the fact, which is already apparent in Britain, that capital will not only be attracted to Ireland but is very likely to leave it. We have the example of the Newry meat factory and of the Americans reconsidering their decision to set up that factory. We will very likely get a flight of foreign capital from this country. There is now no incentive to foreign industrialists to come in here to invest. They can stay in Europe or go into Europe. There is no incentive for them to come into this country, into a decaying society and a stagnant economy.

There has not been an investment in industry here such as there should be. There is £800 million or £900 million of Irish money invested abroad, possibly more. That has not been brought back to create viable industry here and to absorb our unemployment so the Government must face up to providing the necessary capital themselves. They should announce without delay that instead of the present dismantling rate they have in mind, they are going to start on an immense capital investment programme, on the building of primary and secondary schools and even universities so as to make our first investment in the most precious thing we have, in the training and educating of our young people.

In addition, they should announce a capital investment programme in regard to road building on a colossal scale, in regard to forestry and harbour development, an all-embracing capital investment on a national scale so as to build up national assets of one kind or another, to build up the raw materials for education so that we will be in some position to provide for the very big unemployment figures which we are likely to have to meet in the next few years. I am quite sure that if I am in this House in two years' time, I will be in a position to say that the present policy, whether it be of free trade or protected trade, is not going to answer the unemployment problem. It did not answer the problem for the Cumann na nGaedheal Government, the Fine Gael Government or for the different Fianna Fáil Governments. The present policy was no good in the past and it will be no good in the future. It is a grave failure on the part of the Taoiseach to continue to believe that it is likely to answer the problems of the future.

The people are expecting some announcement of the kind I have mentioned. There is no doubt that unless there is capital investment by the State, nobody else will do it. The only recent development which will be of some worthwhile value to the country, which should have taken place 20 or 30 years ago, is the one in relation to food processing initiated by Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann and which is now proceeding in their new type factory. There will always be need for food in the world. One-third of the people of the world go to bed hungry every night and there will always be a demand for food, particularly in the Middle East and in Africa. The Taoiseach made an error in the thirties in not concentrating on the processing of the raw products of agriculture. Instead he concentrated on the industries which, in the light of the CIO reports, are in very serious danger of going out of existence because of the present position of insecurity. There is the boot and shoe industry, the cotton, linen and rayon industry, the paper and paperboard industry in which thousands of people may be thrown out of work. Then there is the motor industry which is in danger of going completely out of existence.

I hope the Taoiseach will take the opportunity when replying of answering the particular questions which I have raised in regard to the whole question of full membership of EEC, whether he is serious about going on with it and, if not, what action he proposes to take to reconsider his rejection of associate membership. I would also like to know the present position with regard to defence commitments. Whom are we now committed to? What is the Taoiseach's attitude if there is in Europe an anti-American bias? If that happens, do we still continue to look towards Europe, do we continue to associate with Europe? Is there any possibility that we might try to barter bases for money on the same lines as Franco has done in Spain? I should be glad if the Taoiseach would deal with these questions.

The other big question I have to put to him is in regard to some serious attempt being made to deal with our pending unemployment problem. The problems raised by unemployment cannot be dealt with overnight but because I believe that these problems will come, at the most, in nine months' time or a year's time, I believe that the Government should now publish their plans for dealing with these problems and then proceed to put them into operation. The Taoiseach has done this on another occasion. He said what he was prepared to do to deal with the unemployment problem, if he were to return to office. He is now in the position to do that.

When one talks of these grave matters of putting into operation capital investment plans, it sounds as if it is easy for one to talk when one has not to find the money and that if one were in power, one would not be able to do any of this oneself. In answer to that criticism, I would put this: on every occasion on which the Minister for Finance has looked for money from the public, he has told us that he has been able to find it for worthwhile projects. Again, I can speak with a certain amount of authority in regard to this matter because on an occasion some years ago, it was suggested that it was very difficult and, indeed impossible, to carry out a hospital building programme amounting to between £20 million and £30 million and yet there was no difficulty, through the Department of Health, organising such a plan under which we were able to build the finest hospitals in the world in a matter of between seven and ten years.

I am certain that there is no alternative to that. I am certain that if the Taoiseach and the Leader of the Opposition throw their minds back to 1922 and on forward all through those years in which they have listened to Deputy McGilligan, Deputy Sweetman, Deputy Dr. Ryan and all the various Ministers for Finance, they will remember that each Budget that has been introduced produced the nostrum, that the millennium, prosperity, was round the corner, that next year things would be different. You must know, looking back on the years in which you have shared responsibility for Government that you have failed. It was not because you set out to fail; that would be stupid and I do not think any politician sets out to do that. Each one of you tried very hard to create prosperity, full employment, to give old people a square deal, to educate young people, to provide better health services, but you failed. Every device you introduced failed. When you brought in protection, it failed; when you had free trade, it failed.

That is the wearisome part of being in here and listening to people who come in here and fool the public essentially because they have fooled themselves, because they have failed to realise that their own doctrinaire conservative thinking on social and economic matters simply does not work. You are not exceptions in this. The Americans cannot make it work either. Neither can the British, as they are finding in Europe. Most of these capitalist type conservative societies, as we have seen, are now levelling off in this post-war boom.

The next thing of course is the solemn cyclical boom and slump, inseparable from capitalism. It has not been any different in Ireland. Its repercussions have been very disastrous from the point of view of our population, from the point of view of the demographic changes which have taken place in rural Ireland, from the point of view of emigration and from the point of view of our failure as a society to create anything like a reasonably socially just pattern of behaviour or of living in the country.

I can only say I was amused to hear Deputy Costello saying that we should be in Europe because we would bring into Europe the Christian way of living which we enjoy here and that that would be an advantage to Europe. I think the Europeans would be very distressed or depressed if they thought they had to live in the type of society that we have here, which you call Christian—I do not call it Christian—where old people get 37/6 a week, where 69,000 stand around at street corners, drawing £2 or £3 a week, where so many have to break up their homes and emigrate because you will not find them work, where most of our children do not get a higher education, where we have these pauper poor law health services. If that is the Christian way of life, I sincerely hope you do not succeed in exporting it. It is bad enough to have it here but to export that to Europe would be one of the greatest calamities that could hit Europe.

As far as I am concerned, I hope that for the time being we will concentrate on our own problems and I hope, above all, that the Taoiseach, whatever he may say in reply and whatever he may say in public, will do a little honest private thinking and reach the conclusion that so many people are now reaching—that he has not been all that much of a success over his 30 years in public life.

I will be very brief in what I have to say. I do not know whether there is a time limit on this debate.

The points which can be made can be made very clearly and, I hope, briefly. This is an important debate, Sir. It is a debate which to some extent may assume the description of being an inquest. It would be a pity if that were so. It is an important debate taking place at a very important juncture in our affairs. It is taking place at a time when, as has been pointed out, we are facing a rising unemployment figure. Close on 70,000 people are now unemployed. It is taking place at a time when there is a grave danger that an economic recession may take place in the sister isle and may create for us consequences and problems. It is taking place at a time when our adverse balance of trade has reached the highest figure ever.

It is in those circumstances, at this time, that the people expect from the Government some semblance of leadership and some idea of policy. I have little doubt that when the people read in the papers tomorrow or hear on the radio this evening what the Taoiseach said here in this debate and what the Minister for Industry and Commerce said, they will come to the conclusion: "Well, mind you, Lemass had very little to say" and that is the plain fact, because he had nothing to say.

Someone else had plenty.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce followed and in a quieter tone, said considerably less. I am not surprised because this whole subject and question of the Common Market must be a matter of considerable embarrassment for the Taoiseach. I should like for the sake of the record to remind the House and the Taoiseach that when this matter was raised here in a very formal way by the Fine Gael Party in 1957, on a motion directing the attention of the Government towards the EEC and the Common Market which was then formed and asking the Government whether they had any views in relation to either the European Free Trade Association or the Common Market, here is what the Taoiseach had to say, and it makes interesting reading—I am quoting from Volume 163 of the Official Reports:

It is clear from what I have said that the negotiations for the drafting of the European Free Trade Area Agreement are not nearly at the stage when it is possible for us, or indeed for any country, to assess with any precision the economic consequences of a decision to participate or otherwise.

I think it is in the public interest that that fact should be made very clear. No sudden or radical change affecting our trade is about to take place.

He went on to say:

So far as the motion contemplates an examination of the desirability of joining or not joining the European Economic Community the idea is, I think, even more unrealistic.

Then he went on to say, referring to the Common Market as we know it:

The obligations involved in membership of the community are of a character which I believe it would be impossible for us to accept at the present stage of our development.

Those, I assume, were considered views by the Leader of the Government. The obligations involved in membership of the community, he stated, were of a character which he believed it would be impossible for us to accept.

In 1957, that was quite true.

Does the Taoiseach think that that is a way out?

It is a fact. That was the case in 1957. Remember, we had just got rid of you out of office at that time.

The plain fact was that the Taoiseach, and other members of the Government, I am afraid, also, were trying to regard themselves as independent factors in the situation. Up to 30th June, 1961, that still would have been the view of the Leader of the Government. What happened to change that view was the decision of Britain to apply for membership. We then became all European. Up to June, 1961, there was not a member of Fianna Fáil who would not have said that he would shed the last drop of his blood in defence of neutrality. In the month of July, 1961, however, they were going around telling the people that we were never neutral. It was rather a demeaning spectacle.

Now we are wondering where we are going. We are like the mugwump, looking backwards and forwards at the same time. The plain fact is that the Taoiseach has been trying to cod himself and the country. He had nothing to say today. The situation is fluid. We will make up our minds when somebody else makes it up for us. I have no doubt that our decision to apply for membership of the Common Market was one which could not be avoided. That is as plain as a pikestaff. But we were not a free agent in the making of that decision. We should not have tried to parade ourselves as if we were. It is now abundantly clear to everyone, Fianna Fáil included, that the market we have beside us is essential for our economic salvation. The days are past when Fianna Fáil leaders used to thank God that that market was gone.

Can the Deputy quote that?

I certainly can. The Minister for External Affairs expressed that view.

I will eat the volume if the Deputy can produce it.

I have been here sufficiently long to know the Taoiseach. He will not put me off my stride. In those days, when every calf was being slaughtered, Fianna Fáil were going around saying: "It does not matter. Is it not much better to be doing this because we will not be having any association with the British? Burn everything British except their coal."

It was Dean Swift said that.

I know. It was printed on the Fianna Fáil posters. That was the kind of background to the political antics of the Fianna Fáil Party. That is all over now. Everyone realises now that the nonsense of the past might be put down to the effusions of the salad years of the Taoiseach and other leaders of the Fianna Fáil Party. It was nonsense then and it is nonsense now. It is important to bear these things in mind when we are faced with the present situation.

It was expedient for us to apply for membership of the Common Market. It was expedient that we should join with Britain. I think we rather made a show of ourselves in our protestations about how deeply European we always were. Perhaps the Taoiseach decided that was the way the cards should be played? It was rather demeaning for us to say we were never neutral when every European knew we were neutral at the one time when every other European nation was fighting for its existence. These were rather demeaning sentiments to display, but apparently the Leader of the Government felt it was expedient to play that way. But he went too far. In the middle of last summer, carried away with enthusiasm for his own words, he declared that even if Britain did not go into Europe we proposed to continue our application.

I said nothing of the sort. Again, can the Deputy quote it?

If our economic circumstances permitted.

I did not even say that.

Words to that effect.

No words to that effect. Give the exact quotation.

I am not quoting. I am stating my recollection of what the Taoiseach said.

It is a very poor recollection.

I am entitled to give my recollection.

I am saying I did not say it, so that finishes that.

I have no doubt that what the Taoiseach said last summer was designed to create the impression that we were some sort of important agent in this matter and that, even if the British did not get in or decided to withdraw their application, we were going to thunder into Europe with flags flying and bells ringing. What is the situation now? That particular statement of the Taoiseach was never withdrawn by him.

It was never made.

It was made and the Taoiseach knows it was made. It was clearly made and it caused some interest at the time until eventually everybody said: "The man is a little bit off key at the moment and we will have to allow him some licence." Again, I do not know who was impressed by that sentiment. Again, it appeared to be a little bit of expediency and a little bit of bluff. All that is over now. As the Leader of the Opposition indicated here today, we in Fine Gael—and I think it can be said for every Party in this House— have supported the Government over the past two years. We have refrained from embarrassing them. We have tried to give assistance by silence, at times to our own cost. But we remember a phrase invented by the Taoiseach himself—that the provision of work is the test of policy. We remember well the slogan and catchcry of Fianna Fáil in 1957: "Let us get cracking." We remember all the brave speeches that were made in those days.

There is a situation facing this Government now and it will not be solved by slogans or by bluff. It requiries leadership from the Government, not vague statements hoping that something will turn out when the night comes along. Nothing like that will solve the problems there now and which may loom greater in the near future. Now is the time for leadership. I hope we will get that kind of leadership from the Government.

I am sorry I was not here for the Taoiseach's speech today when he moved the Adjournment of the House. I gather there was nothing new or sensational in what he said. Indeed, one can sympathise with him in being required to make a speech on Ireland's application for entry to the EEC and on the present situation. I do not think it is news to anybody that, so far as the Labour Party are concerned, we never were in full cry, so to speak, in support of membership of the EEC when we remember what hardships might ensue. We were influenced by the fact that Britain had made application to become a member. On one occasion, the Taoiseach—I think it was at the Fianna Fáil Árd Fheis—had reason to talk about the support or otherwise of the Parties and members of Dáil Éireann. He said Fine Gael had supported the application and went on to describe in derogatory fashion the "customary hesitation" of the Labour Party in giving its approval as well. Let him put his own interpretation on "customary". As far as we are concerned, we certainly did have some hesitation in supporting Ireland's application for membership of the EEC.

I am not ashamed to say we would hesitate before we would give our approval, not that it was a matter of any consequence when Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael were completely at one in the matter. We were influenced merely by the fact that Britain made application and by that alone. If the Taoiseach were to speak the truth, he would also admit without any frills that the only reason for our application for membership was Britain's application.

It has been sometimes amusing, if not amazing, to see the changes that have taken place in the past 18 months and to see people becoming good Europeans, all kinds of people wanting to abandon what we always seemed to boast about, our traditional neutrality. We had opportunities to make independent application for membership of the EEC for many years past, especially in 1957 and we did not take them. We believed that the process we would have to undergo in dismantling our tariffs up to 1970 would be a very severe exercise indeed and that there would certainly be unemployment.

I do not want to deal in detail with the various CIO reports that have emerged from the Committee set up by the Government to study industry, but to me and to the members of my Party, and I might say to the members of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, they indicate in respect of the four industries that have been surveyed, that there will be some thousands unemployed. I do not want to argue whether it will be X thousand or Y or Z thousand but I refute the allegation or inference that there will not be any unemployment as a result of our membership of EEC as it would affect these industries that have been surveyed, and the surveys for which have been published.

The Taoiseach himself was reluctant, so far as I could gather from his speches, to endorse fully the idea of membership of EEC. He said in July, 1961 in Dáil Éireann in speaking of our application for membership:

If membership of the Community is obtainable, if we find as a result of negotiations that it is only obtainable, on the basis of complete acceptance of the full obligations as they are now defined, the problem with which this country would be presented would indeed be critical.

They were pretty strong words and it seems to me that the Taoiseach in July, 1961 had some hesitation in applauding or endorsing the idea of this country's application for membership of EEC. His doubts and his fears over the 18 months since July, 1961 seem to have dissolved but I must say that I and the Labour Party have had these fears and still have them.

Subsequently, in the Autumn of last year, the Taoiseach came back from Bonn and he said the Government were prepared to declare acceptance of all the obligations without qualification. But in July 1961 we were left under the impression that there would be some form of negotiation on our application for membership. From what the Taoiseach said at first we gathered that he also was under the impression that some terms might be negotiated for this country as an EEC member. Twelve or 18 months afterwards the Taoiseach said that as soon as Britain became a member, after their negotiations, we would automatically become members and that there was to be no question of negotiation at all.

I am sure that I never said anything of the sort.

I did not say what you said—you gave the impression from what you said in July 1961—indeed you said in 1961 that if membership of the community was obtainable only on the basis of complete acceptance of the full obligations as they were then defined——

That meant a 50 per cent. tariff cut immediately.

——the problem with which this country would be presented would, indeed, be critical.

So it would.

Does the Taoiseach know, if we were accepted as members tomorrow at what stage the tariffs——

The Deputy was informed of the proposals we had made.

Of the proposals you have made?

I am not clear as to what proposal was made.

The proposal for tariff reductions proper to ourselves. The House was informed of it.

The Taoiseach did not make any such qualification. He said "on the basis of complete acceptance of the full obligations as they are now defined..." and I assume the full obligations of the Treaty of Rome ..."the problem with which this country would be presented would indeed be critical."

The Deputy was informed that we had proposed a modified application of these obligations for ourselves and I had no reason to think we would not have secured them.

But you have now reason to believe that the strict terms would be applied?

Was there ever any indication that the Taoiseach's proposals would be accepted?

There were indications that they were prepared to negotiate about them.

It does not seem from the events in the last fortnight that any concessions were to be given to any country.

I do not agree. Dr. Adenauer said that Britain got 70 per cent. of what they were looking for. We would have settled for 70 per cent.

The Taoiseach said last year, after his return from Bonn, that this country was prepared to accept all the obligations, economic and political. I suggest the Taoiseach was going a little too far in that and that he was not leaving himself much room to negotiate. According to his own statement, unless we got some concessions on negotiations, the economy of this country——

No country, not even the present Six, will have accepted all the obligations before 1970, and what we were negotiating were the terms that would apply until 1970.

In any case, the Taoiseach said after his discussions with General de Gaulle and Dr. Adenauer that he was prepared to accept all the obligations without qualification. I should like the Taoiseach to say if any demands were made that we should accept without qualification the economic and political consequences of membership of EEC?

It was peculiar that after that visit the Taoiseach spoke of our automatic entry immediately after Great Britain. We had occasion to question him here in the Dáil and he did not— again, let me say—give the impression that the negotiations, so far as Ireland's membership was concerned, would take any time at all. I think in fairness to the House and to the country he should have been prepared to clarify the situation and that he should have been prepared to negotiate, apart from the suggestions that were made with regard to the rate of tariff reduction, even easier terms for this country. It seems, in view of de Gaulle's attitude, that would be absolutely impossible.

We do not accept that.

I do not know what the Taoiseach does not accept.

It has nothing to do with us now. What we have to decide now is our own policy.

That is the new situation. I am discussing the situation that obtained in the past 18 months. At least it should have been tried, but the Taoiseach's attitude was—we will not go in with our hands up under any conditions.

The Deputy did not read the document given to him. Did he read the statements made at Brussels?

I did. I am talking about replies to Questions put down to the Taoiseach in this House in which he suggested that as soon as Britain goes in, we will go in.

On the basis of the terms we were seeking.

That was merely a suggestion in respect of tariffs.

And a number of other things. They were set out in the statement. The Deputy should be aware of them.

In any case, apart from being associated with Europe, many people in this country who seemed to want very much the advantages of membership for Ireland were uncertain. There were those in agriculture who thought that as soon as we entered the EEC, there would be a virtual Utopia for farmers. I am not saying that was the Taoiseach's view entirely. There were many people, especially in the farming community, who believed that as soon as we got in, all their problems would be over and that high prices would be the order of the day. It is true there might not be a great effect on employment in the agricultural industry but I am informed that in some respects there would be a lessening of employment.

It should also be remembered that membership of the EEC and high prices in agriculture would also necessarily mean high prices for the housewife, and that is an aspect of membership, and of agriculture, to which few people gave much thought in the past 18 months.

It would not have made any difference; it is the export prices we are worried about.

Prices of foodstuffs in Europe will tend to rise.

If we could get the rise for our exports, we would be quite happy. There would be no rise of prices here.

It does not necessarily follow at all. As far as industry was concerned, the CIO reports were referred to but the Taoiseach and the members of the Government denied in respect of some of these industries that there would be any unemployment at all. That is not our view. The Taoiseach does not necessarily take our view, but that was not the view of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

Nobody said that either—that there would not be any consequences in these industries. They said that the overall position would be better.

The picture that emerged in the first four industries was not a very encouraging one.

There are new industries being set up, too.

We know there are, but we do not know what the employment content will be in those industries—only what is forecast on the day the scissors is put in the Minister's hands and the tape is cut. We do not know if they will materialise or not. Many of them are long-term. They have not proved themselves yet. I want to be realistic in this. I do not know whether the Taoiseach believes it or not. We believe our role in this matter is to spur the Government. The Taoiseach may say the Government do not need to be spurred but every Government needs to be spurred. If there were not an Opposition to question the Government in this particular matter, there surely is the risk that the Government would become complacent.

The Taoiseach has often been described as a very energetic and farseeing man. That may or may not be the case. If he is to regard himself and his Government as virtual dictators—I am sure he does not—and if the Government are to run without opposition there is a danger they could become complacent, and evidence of it is seen in the recent rapid rise in unemployment. I do not think the Taoiseach has need to be complacent about that.

The Taoiseach also talked about the prospect of new industries. He spoke very vaguely about it. He was questioned a few times here about the re-employment of those who would be rendered redundant. He did not make any major speech that I know of about the prospect of new industries. As the answer to a fifth supplementary Question here one day—I think he was leaving the House and taking up his brief—he said we would have more industries in this country than we would have men to man them, or words to that effect. I will get the Taoiseach the quotation in any case. He said that our problem would be that we would have so many industries that we would not have enough men to be employed in them.

You will not find that quotation.

I will find it for the Taoiseach. They may not be the exact words but they will be shown to be substantially what I have said. These airy-fairy promises of new industries and more employment are not sufficient, and if the Taoiseach has any information as to the establishment of industries by either Germans or Americans, or anybody else, I think in all fairness he should announce these plans or give this information to the country so that the fears of many workers at the present time may be allayed.

The Taoiseach said again when he came back from his talks with Chancellor Adenauer and General de Gaulle that we were prepared to accept all obligations without qualifications, economic or political. Does anybody know what the political implications were, or did anybody know in the past 18 months what they might be? As far as anyone can see, one cannot misinterpret the Bonn Declaration as a vague sort of document. It is most inconclusive and we were prepared in being members of the EEC to say that we were prepared to accept the political consequences of membership of the Community.

I cannot understand how any spokesman of any government would give on behalf of the people of the country any such assurance, especially when one sees what has happened in the past two or three weeks. The Taoiseach may not have expressly said it but it seemed also that we were to enter the EEC without any qualifications as to defence commitments or foreign policy. Nobody will be able to pin the Taoiseach down on this at all because he had been so blissfully vague in the past six months that it would be impossible to do so. It does seem in any case that his Government are prepared to abandon our traditional policy of neutrality.

I said to the Taoiseach before that if that is the case, if we were so certain that we were going to become members of the EEC and if the Government were prepared to abandon neutrality, the most direct thing to do would be to make an official announcement to that effect in the House. Have we still not made up our minds whether we will be neutral or not? The Taoiseach over the past six months, and particularly from autumn up to the Christmas period, tried to win the support of the people to the idea of the abandonment of the policy of neutrality.

Will the Deputy define neutrality for me.

Non-participation.

In military encounters —non-participation, as in the last World War. Did the Taoiseach not know we were neutral in the last war? It meant that we would not side with anybody, that we would not lend our arms either to the Nazis, the Americans, the British or the other countries of the free world. Is that not what we mean by neutrality? Was it not often defined for us by Deputy de Valera, now our President?

Is it the Communist half of the world against the free half of the world?

I do not think anybody will fall into that sort of trap. The impression seems to be—and our people are given the impression—that those who are against the Common Market must, of necessity, be pro-Communist.

I am not saying that. I am asking the Deputy for a definition.

It was surely unnecessary for people to come back from Bonn and Paris waving this anti-Communist flag. The Taoiseach does not do that sort of thing usually. He has not done it so far as I know, and I can only take him as I find him. He does not usually engage in that sort of thing, but why was it necessary to do it last August?

I certainly did not want the country to be represented as being neutral in that sense.

Even the Hottentots know we are anti-Communist.

In that case we are on one side and not neutral.

Were we anti-Nazi during the last war? We have been anti-Communism since Communism was established. We do not have to protest our anti-Communism in 1962 or 1963. If we are to change the policy of the Minister for External Affairs in the United Nations, we should say so now. So far as neutrality is concerned, if we got the views of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, we would probably find support for the idea of abandoning it, but it would be much more honest to make a firm statement that in the next war, we would not be neutral, or that we would not be neutral in a major conflict, to the point of taking up arms against the Communists or any other aggressor. That would be the honest and direct thing to do, rather than gradually insinuating our people away from what has been described as our traditional policy of neutrality in the past. The Minister for External Affairs is conducting a certain policy in the United Nations——

He is conducting the policy of the Government.

Will he be allowed to do the same thing in future? In his speech when his Estimate was before the House the year before last, the Minister talked about how impossible it was—in view of our policy of neutrality—to join any sort of European bloc. He rejected entirely the idea of joining any great military or political bloc. It seems now from his silence that he is being required—I suppose by a Government majority— to change that policy. Will the Taoiseach reconcile his statement—

There is no difficulty about that.

There is no difficulty for the Taoiseach in reconciling it, but, as I said before, it is significant that the Minister has not opened his mouth on the Common Market. Can the Taoiseach explain that?

It is not even true.

Has he made a statement in this House about the Common Market—a positive statement about the Common Market?

I think so.

I do not know whether he is self-gagged or whether the gag is imposed by the Government. The Minister who should, if needs be, be right in the middle of our application for membership of the EEC, has not opened his mouth about our application since July, 1961.

That is a wonderful thing. That is a great help.

The Labour Party supported our application because our trade is bound up with Great Britain. There is no point in going into detail but we depend on Great Britain for 70 or 80 per cent. of our trade. We believed our role was to spur the Government on to effect what we believed to be the necessary changes.

When I spoke on the Adjournment Debate last December, I paid the Government and the Taoiseach the compliment of saying that I believed they were doing what the CIO had suggested. I think the Government have acquitted themselves well so far as its recommendations were concerned. On that occasion in his reply, the Taoiseach — in the sort of reply that is becoming usual from the Taoiseach —talked about the groaning and moaning he had heard. We want to try to ensure that the Government will continue to act as they have acted in the past three months. We even want them to go further and try to ensure that industry will also play its part, in order that the recommendations of the CIO on industry will be effected. We want to ensure that the Government will encourage and stimulate industries in which there might be redundancy, in order that the necessary changes will be made to ensure that there will be no redundancy. We want to try to ensure that there will, in fact, be an increase in employment.

The Government seems to be irritated — or even pretend to be embarrassed—by these opinions. I do not think the Taoiseach can deny that questions posed to him have irritated him. He tended to give the impression that they were an embarrassment to the Government. These questions were asked in good faith for the workers so far as we were concerned, and there was no intention deliberately to embarrass the Government. I see no justification for the irritation which the Taoiseach showed on occasion when questions were put to him.

Very rare occasions. I have the most even temper in the Dáil.

He was in very bad form in Enniscorthy.

On the contrary, I had a most enjoyable day.

The speech was a scandalous one.

He went down there to make an announcement about something we have been advocating for the past four years.

Someone must have given him the wrong speech.

I do not know what the Deputy thinks was scandalous in it.

I could not associate it with him.

It seems that at present membership for us is impossible— perhaps only for a time. I think it would be right to say that amongst many of those who have been very enthusiastic for membership of the EEC, there seems to be a sense of relief. The Taoiseach will find that even in his own Party. There are members of his Party who are relieved that at least there will be another waiting period by reason of which many of the steps that might have to be taken will now be postponed for a while.

I do not know what the Taoiseach said today in regard to our application. I assume he said we could do nothing until we see how things develop in the next few weeks, or until we see what Britain does. Professor Mansholt of the EEC said we have to make up our own minds on our application. We have no indication as to whether or not we would be accepted as full members or associate members. There are various reports as to General de Gaulle's attitude towards new applicants. It has been reported that he is favourable towards the admission of Denmark. I do not know much about the niceties of the meeting between the Taoiseach and the President of the Republic of France, but it would be interesting to know what encouragement General de Gaulle gave to him when he spoke to him on the occasion when the Taoiseach travelled to Paris last autumn in connection with our application for membership of the EEC.

If the Deputy reads the speech I made to-day, he will find that out.

I listened to the speech and I did not find it out.

You did not listen very carefully. You must have been asleep at that stage.

The backbenchers of Fianna Fáil were asleep.

At any rate, the Taoiseach came back full of enthusiasm, and we were all but accepted. It seems abundantly clear, however, that the Taoiseach said so without mincing any words today, that our application depended on the fate of Britain's.

Since July, 1961, certain steps have been taken to prepare us for entry into the EEC. I do not think anybody could take violent exception to the positive steps, in any case, that have been taken. Last week, we had two industrial Bills designed to give increased aid for the establishment of industry in this country, and those proposals won the full support of the members of this House. The Government have also proceeded to lower the tariff barriers from 1st January by ten per cent., and as the Taoiseach has proposed, it is intended to knock off another ten per cent. on 1st January and to proceed—he may have said this in his speech today—as if we were to become members of the EEC.

Of course, the initial ten per cent. has not caused any great disruption of employment. What the effect of the next will be we do not know, but the exercise will become much more severe as the years go on, whether the rate will be stepped up or not, as I assume it will have to be by 1970 which is the last year. What the repercussions on industry and employment can be one can only infer from the type of report we have got from the CIO on the four industries they have already surveyed.

We can all subscribe to the sentiments so often expressed in recent months, particularly as to our common ground with Europe. People have been talking in flowery language about the traditions of Europe, how similar they are to ours, how we are part of the European culture, how our aspirations are identical with those of Europe and the countries in it, and our opposition to Communism. We can all agree that as far as those things are concerned, we are a great brotherhood. Nobody questions it. But when it comes to the hard facts of life, to things that are economic, to trading and employment and to what the Taoiseach had occasion to describe last week as stratospheric politics, where are we? They are not much concerned about brotherhood then.

I do not say this against the countries of Europe, but they are hard people. They deal in facts and figures. They are concerned about their own people—the French about the people of France and the Germans about the people of Germany—as we ought to be concerned about ourselves. I do not think that we should be swayed too much by this talk about what we have in common culturally with European countries, our traditions, the similarity of our aspirations and all that sort of thing. Application for membership of the EEC is not going to change the culture and art of Europe and all those things described in flowery language by adherents to the Common Market. What we have to concern ourselves with is the way of life and the standard of life of our people, employment, wages, social welfare and all those things which are important to us.

In trying to become the best type of European, we should never forget that our first obligations are towards the people of this country, their protection as far as employment is concerned, their welfare as far as social services are concerned, and security of employment for them. Many people were inclined to think that these should be somewhat secondary to this idea of culture, traditions, aspirations and all that sort of thing.

As far as I can see, it is a strict and, it seems, an exclusive club. If one were to read the Treaty of Rome, one could conceive of a Europe that was indeed a confined brotherhood. It seems to me that admission for us meant many and severe obligations, and there did not seem to be any indication at any time that regard was to be had by the members of this exclusive club to weaker members who might seek or gain admission. It would not be unreasonable that countries not as economically sound as France and Germany should get concessions in order to achieve the goals so eloquently described in the terms of the Treaty of Rome. We were virtually forced to apply for membership. Then it seems that as members we could be, and it looked as if we would be, pawns in a great political game. Maybe it is inevitable that that should be the case, but we ought to look after our trade, our means of employment for our people and of income for industrialists and the future of our community.

However, I suppose what we have to concern ourselves about is what is to happen now. I do not think the Taoiseach could throw very much light on the situation—nobody would expect him to to-day—but there has been a mass of speculation over the week-end by diplomats and political writers and the situation is no more clear than it was when it was decided that the negotiations between the Six and Great Britain should be suspended indefinitely. Therefore, we can only remain more or less a victim of circumstances, which I suppose have been to a large extent provoked by the attitude of General de Gaulle towards the British application.

The Taoiseach admitted, speaking last Tuesday night to a paper on America and the Common Market by the American Ambassador, that the situation was somewhat bedevilled by what he described as stratospheric politics. If the Taoiseach describes them as stratospheric politics—those practised by General de Gaulle and the Adenauers, the Spaaks, the Heaths and the Macmillans—then it is very difficult for the ordinary person in this country to know what Ireland's situation is or would be in a club or group that would engage in stratospheric negotiations, which suggests that General de Gaulle might go to Moscow or to Madrid.

As I say, it becomes very bewildering and confusing for those who regarded Ireland's application for membership of the EEC as being purely an economic venture, which might have a good or a bad effect on our standard of life or security of employment. They are also disturbed and, as many members of this House are, still more confused that within what is supposed to be a brotherhood in the terms of the Treaty of Rome, two of the greatest powers in it—France and Germany—during the negotiations between Britain and the Six decided to draw up a treaty of peace between each other.

It is not for me to pronounce judgment or for any of us to do so, on the attitude of General de Gaulle or to applaud or blame Great Britain for what has happened. I do not suppose it gets anybody any place to recall that Britain had an opportunity of becoming a member of this Common Market in 1956 and 1957 but shortly after that period set up her own trading group; whether that aggravated General de Gaulle is anybody's guess. It seems that a number of things have aggravated him in the past. It also seems from some statements that he visualises a Europe that does not include either islands like Great Britain or Ireland or countries that might be remote from the mainland of Europe like the Scandinavian countries.

When the Taoiseach came back from Europe in October he said that talks with all the Governments which he had had were uniformly satisfactory. As a result of that visit to Europe and from the statements he gave to the Press, apparently he did regard these talks as being uniformly satisfactory. I suppose the Taoiseach was satisfied that there would be no great barrier to Ireland's membership of EEC. I wonder if there was at that time any indication from Adenauer or de Gaulle that there might be difficulty in admitting Ireland to this exclusive club? I gather from what the Taoiseach said that there was no such indication.

If the Deputy means West Germany and Dr. Adenauer, what he says is correct.

I leave out Adenauer but the Taoiseach said that the talks with de Gaulle were satisfactory.

The Taoiseach must be the first man in the world to have had that experience.

He could only take the man at his word, for whatever that was worth. It is too early to attempt to predict what will happen in the future. There was a suggestion that the Western European Union might be used as an instrument to draw the European countries together, if not for economic, at least for political purposes. I do not ask the Taoiseach to speculate as to what Ireland's attitude would be with regard to the Western European Union.

We are not members.

I am asking what the attitude of the Government would be. We were confronted with a situation some two or three years ago of having to decide whether we would join EFTA but the opinion was then that it would be of no great advantage to us. It seems that in present circumstances it would be of no advantage to us particularly in regard to agriculture. It has been suggested that there might be established a trade group comprising Britain, the United States, the Scandinavian countries and I presume, this country. We have no idea of the nature of what any trade agreement between these groups or nations might be. I would hope that no matter what this trade group might do, we should attempt to be in at the beginning and be partners to the setting down of the terms of the agreement. As far as EEC were concerned, we were confronted with a fait accompli. We just had to obey the rules and accept them, whether they suited this country in its present circumstances or not.

There is a possibility that the EEC negotiations may be resumed and therefore we cannot pull back from the lowering of tariffs which was started from 1st of January this year. I suppose that would be the most desirable situation for us because we have a market on our own doorstep and there is room for expansion there. We have been a victim of circumstances in all this business. We were forced to apply because Britain did so. We could not do otherwise.

It is a fact that Britain decided to apply for membership when the game was well under way. If Britain had decided to become a member in 1957 and we had made application, then the exercise of the lowering of tariffs would not be as severe as at the present time. We do not know what the future holds for this country as far as association with these groups is concerned but it seems to me that in the past 18 months the Common Market and talk of the Common Market has overshadowed our own problems here.

Many measures were suggested by the Government as designed to meet the unemployment situation that might arise but that does not get away from the ordinary problems we have had for such a long time, problems which in some cases are becoming bigger and bigger every day. I was not present in the House today to hear the Taoiseach's reply to Questions down to him with regard to unemployment. I assume he made reference to the building industry and suggested that some of the increase in unemployment followed the falling off of work in that industry due to the weather but I would not say that that explains the full increase in the unemployment figures.

You can take it from me that the managers of the employment exchanges report that it is almost entirely due to the adverse weather.

The figure of 10,000 is accounted for by agricultural workers and forestry workers?

And constructional workers and road workers. There is no indication of any situation which will not be immediately remedied when the thaw comes.

I am not in a position to refute the figures given here tonight but as far as my experience has gone in the past few weeks, building workers in my area have not been registered as unemployed. They have been receiving wet time payments.

There was a postponement of the commencement of other operations because of the weather.

I accept that the bad weather was responsible for some unemployment.

Up to 5th January, the number was lower than last year.

If it was lower up to 5th January, I would not say that any great impression had been made on the unemployment figures.

They were somewhat lower than at the same period in 1962, and 1962 was lower than 1961.

I can see that they were somewhat lower but in view of all the talk there has been about the number of industries established, it does not seem to me that we have gone far enough.

I agree that we have not gone anything like far enough.

The Taoiseach should also be prepared to admit that industrial employment is less than it was in 1956.

That is not so.

I think it is. That statement was valid up to four weeks ago. It was valid in December of 1962. Everything is not all right. We need many more industries. I assume the new incentives will bring many more industries but, indeed, we need them.

I want to conclude by referring to a speech I saw reported in the newspapers over the week-end attributed to the Minister for Transport and Power. It is very difficult to understand the attitude or the frame of mind of the Minister for Transport and Power when he talks about workers in production. It is very difficult to understand, not only the Minister but some other people who are not in the political life of the country, when they talk of increased production. The Minister bewailed the fact that, despite increases to workers, workers' production had not increased. I do not know whether he meant the actual workers or not but it would have been a happier phrase if he had said industrial production had not increased. The Minister tended in that speech to give the impression that as soon as a worker gets an increase to compensate for an increase in the cost of living, or some other factor, he is supposed to work harder.

I do not want him to work any less.

Will the Taoiseach tell the Minister for Transport and Power?

Productivity is much more the result of increased equipment, better organisation, than it is of effort.

The Taoiseach seems to know all this. The Taoiseach knows that as far as production is concerned, it all does not depend on the worker. As far as I know, the workers of this country in foundry, factory, woollen mills, work pretty hard, work as hard as they can and just cannot work any harder. The machinery does not permit them to work any harder but, if we are to get increased production in this country, there will have to be a change in method, better machinery, new equipment, better equipment.

I do not think it is right—maybe he does not know any better—that the Minister for Transport and Power should tend to give the impression that the workers are letting down the drive for the increased production, which we all agree we must have, in order, not alone to survive, but especially to compete in these times. Whether people like it or not, as far as we who are members of trade unions are concerned—we do speak for the Executive of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions—and as far as the Irish Congress of Trade Unions is concerned, we will give all the encouragement necessary to workers in this fight, which is not Fianna Fáil's fight alone.

I do not want to weary the Taoiseach by referring to his Enniscorthy speech but he did a bad day's work for the political life of this country when he attempted to give the impression that Fianna Fáil were the be-all and end-all of everything in this country. That is silly; that is childish. Some of them want to give the impression that they own the national emblem, the national language.

The one thing we own is the brains.

To whom did you lend them?

This business of application for membership of EEC, this business of survival in a world of freer trade, is a matter in which we must all engage and to which we must apply our minds—Fianna Fáil, Labour, Fine Gael, what-have-you. It is our problem and we will have to deal with it as best we can in order to ensure that we will stem emigration, reduce unemployment, give more employment to many more of our people.

Debate adjourned.
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