Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Feb 1963

Vol. 200 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Coast Protection Bill, 1962— Committee Stage.

SECTION 1.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance (Mr. O'Malley)

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 2, line 21, to insert "or" after "borough".

This is a very minor drafting amendment. Perhaps at this stage I might refer to the suggestion made during the Second Reading that urban district councils be permitted to function as promoting authorities. We have looked into this matter and have come to the conclusion that an Order to this effect should not be made. Although some Deputies considered that if an urban district council put up a scheme, a county council might not operate it, we feel that there are reasonable men on both bodies and that if there are any difficulties, they should be easily overcome. We feel very strongly that there should be co-operation between the local authorities.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 1, as amended agreed to.

Section 2 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 7.

Question proposed: "That Section 7 stand part of the Bill."

Mr. T. Lynch

This section relates to Rosslare Strand alone.

Mr. O'Malley

This outlines the matters to be shown in a coast protection scheme, including the estimated cost and the percentage contribution. It deals with the percentage to be provided by the promoting authority and by the Minister for Finance.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Parliamentary Secretary said that grants up to 80 per cent of the cost may be made. I would like it to be stated that grants of not less than 80 per cent of the cost be made.

Mr. O'Malley

As I explained the last day, that is the usual phraseology —that the Minister may grant 80 per cent. I take it that what the Deputy has in mind is that "shall grant" would mean there would be a statutory obligation and that if the scheme is accepted then 80 per cent shall be given.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would the Parliamentary Secretary agree to that?

Mr. O'Malley

There could be instances where the Minister would not be prepared to give the full 80 per cent. I am satisfied that 80 per cent will be the usual amount. I am satisfied that, if a scheme is accepted as being economically sound, the 80 per cent will be granted. However, the Deputy will appreciate that there could be very close conflict of interest. Let us take an example. When the Minister examines a file he might find that a proposal of this nature was passed by the Waterford County Council on a vote of say 16 to 15, or some narrow margin. Further more, on our advice, he might be in doubt about the economic justification of giving the entire 80 per cent. Then there is the position if the local authority gave the 30 per cent, notwithstanding the fact that the Minister might decide on giving 70 per cent. I do not see it arising. It is catering for an eventuality which is unlikely to arise.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Parliamentary Secretary put the words right into my mouth. I am sure he must have some experience of this, say, with county councils. I shall take my own county council in the Waterford constituency where East is East and West is West and never the twain shall meet. Therefore, if there were a division between the eastern and western county councils, and it were a close issue, the Parliamentary Secretary says the Minister might decide not to give the 80 per cent because of the closeness of the issue. I submit that that is all the more reason why he should give the 80 per cent because the majority of the county councils voting against it would do so on the point of what the charge would be on the rates. If they were going to get, say, 80 per cent, and the rates would pay 20 per cent, it might be bad enough for a whole lot of them. However, if they thought the Minister had the power to reduce the grant from 80 per cent to, say, 50 per cent, then there would be a breach.

This is a good Bill. The majority of the sections were in the old Bill. I give the Parliamentary Secretary credit for bringing the 80 per cent to the surface. At the same time, there is no use in having a leaden weight tied to the 80 per cent, so that it can be sunk at will to 40 per cent or 30 per cent. Would the Parliamentary Secretary meet me now if I put in an amendment on the Report Stage?

Mr. O'Malley

I would not. I am in the same position as Deputy Sweetman when he introduced the 1956 Coast Protection Bill. I used the exact words he used—"the Minister may"—for the self-same reasons, although I do not think he went into detail about them.

On the question that the Minister might take cognisance of a close issue at a local authority meeting and, as a result of close voting on a proposal, might not agree to the 80 per cent that would not be entirely correct. The Commissioners would have the press cuttings of such a meeting. The consideration would be not so much the closeness of the voting as the economic merits of the proposal. In other words, each project will be judged on its merits. I am satisfied beyond yea or nay that the majority of the cases which we know of, if they reach us and are promoted by the local authority, will qualify for the 80 per cent. If the Deputy, nevertheless, wishes to put down an amendment on the Report Stage, we can discuss it further.

Mr. T. Lynch

I made a vow here that I would never take the word of a Fianna Fáil Minister or Parliamentary Secretary, having had the experience of the Taoiseach running out on his statement here, when the CIE Bill was going through the House, and of the Minister for Transport and Power running out on another one. I have a great deal of respect for this Parliamentary Secretary. He has given me his personal undertaking—and that is good enough for me. I am taking the word of the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy O'Malley, and I accept his personal undertaking that this matter of the 80 per cent will be dealt with in the fashion he has outlined.

Mr. O'Malley

I should also say that the Deputy can well visualise, with regard to the 20 per cent local authority contribution, that at a meeting of the county council—as he says —there might be members from another part of the county who would be completely disinterested and whose only interest would be to see what the charge of the proposal would be on the rates of the county at large. It might well happen that a wealthy concern or State or semi-State body would be located on a stretch of the coast or adjacent to a damaged railway line, harbour, and so on, and might contribute, themselves, in order to get the scheme there.

Mr. T. Lynch

That would be lovely.

Mr. O'Malley

It is quite on the books. It is all the more reason why we have this type of permissive clause.

Mr. Corry

We have just come from an interview with the Parliamentary Secretary. We have works which are partly done. They would not come under the scope of this Bill just because they are partly done by us already. We require an opportunity to deal with that point. We desire something on the lines of the amendment to Section 26 as regards Rosslare. We want an opportunity to submit amendments. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will not look for anything today beyond the Committee Stage— that is, if we can do what we want to do on the Report Stage. I am relying on the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us now whether or not it can be done on the Report Stage.

Mr. O'Malley

What?

Mr. Corry

I want to know if partial protection, which has already been carried out by the Cork County Council, for example, can be included. Can we have that included, on Report Stage, on the same lines as the proposal here in respect of Rosslare or is that a specific area? Can we get the same facilities for Cork, under an amendment on Report Stage, as are being granted in respect of Rosslare?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is nothing about Rosslare in Section 7, which is before the House at the moment.

Mr. Corry

I may be rather premature in doing it but I am anxious that it be done now. I am anxious to know where we stand and I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to tell us.

Mr. McAuliffe

I should like to support Deputy Corry.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy may not do that because there can be no discussion on that matter on Section 7. The Deputy may raise the point at a later stage.

Question put and agreed to.

Sections 8 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 12.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 2:

In subsection (1), page 8, lines 53 and 54, to delete "public road or bridge (in this subsection referred to as the original road or bridge)," and substitute "road or bridge (in this section referred to as the original road or bridge) the responsibility for the maintenance of which lies on a local authority,".

If the House will agree, we can take amendments Nos. 2, 3 and 4 together. The three are really drafting amendments. Amendment No. 4 clarifies the position in relation to the taking over of a new or improved road or bridge by a local authority. The section covers interferences with public roads and bridges. Where the Commissioners, in dealing with a public road or bridge under this Act, confer substantial advantages on the public by way of new works or improvements, the local authority will contribute such part of the cost as the Minister for Local Government shall certify.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 3:

In subsection (1), page 9, lines 40 to 43, to delete "deemed to be an expense of the maintenance by that council of main, county or urban roads (as the case may be) and shall be paid by them" and substitute "paid by that council".

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 4:

Before subsection (3) to insert the following new subsection:

"(3) Where the Commissioners have completed in pursuance of this section the construction of a new permanent road or bridge or the improvement of an existing alternative road or bridge, they shall hand over to the appropriate local authority, and that authority shall accept, the road or bridge so constructed or improved".

Amendment agreed to.

Section 12, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 13 to 19, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 20.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 5:

To delete subsection (3).

This is another drafting amendment. There will be a consequential amendment to subsection (3) of Section 26. These amendments will not alter the scope of the Bill. Their purpose is to make clear that the cost of minor improvements, properly capable of being regarded as maintenance, will be recoverable from the promoting authority. This section provides for the maintenance of completed works by the Commissioners of Public Works. Minor improvements will be regarded as maintenance.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 20, as amended, agreed to.

Section 21 to 25, inclusive, agreed to.

SECTION 26.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 6:

In subsection (3), page 17, to insert "or improvements" in line 16 before "referred", to delete "subsection (1) of" in line 17 and to insert ", improvements" before "or" in line 22.

We can discuss amendments Nos. 6 and 7 together. Amendment No. 6 is a drafting amendment consequential on the previous amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. O'Malley

I move amendment No. 7:

Before subsection (5) to insert the following new subsection:

(5) (a) Where the Commissioners carry out maintenance or improvements at Rosslare Strand, subsections (3) and (4) of this section shall apply as if the maintenance or improvements were referred to in section 20 of this Act and the council of the county of Wexford were the promoting authority.

(b) In the foregoing paragraph— the reference to maintenance at Rosslare Strand shall be construed as a reference to maintenance in proper repair and effective condition of the coast protection works at Rosslare Strand in the county of Wexford which were commenced by the Commissioners in the year 1957;

the reference to improvements at Rosslare Strand shall be construed as a reference to any improvements to those works executed by the Commissioners which appear to them to be minor matters properly capable of being regarded as maintenance.

The House is aware that a scheme of coast protection was commenced at Rosslare Strand in 1957 and will probably be completed in 1964. The estimated cost of the scheme is £120,000. The works being carried out are of such a nature that, on completion, they will require very careful maintenance. It is intended to treat the scheme as if it had been carried out under this Bill. The Wexford County Council have contributed approximately 25 per cent of the estimated cost and, as I have stated, their contribution will be adjusted in accordance with the terms of the Bill. No specific statutory authority is required for this adjustment.

Statutory powers are required, however, in relation to maintenance, and the purpose of this amendment is to provide these powers. This section provides that a promoting authority will pay to the Commissioners: (1) half the costs and expenses incurred in connection with a scheme which does not proceed; (2) the full amount of the costs and expenses incurred on the maintenance of a completed scheme; and (3) the full amount of the costs and expenses incurred on works which become necessary in the event of abandonment. Provision is made for contribution by other local authorities towards the amounts payable under (1), (2) and (3) and by harbour authorities towards the amount payable under (2).

Mr. Corry

Certain portions of work for the prevention of further coast erosion in Cork county have been partly carried out by the local authority and it is our intention to put in amendments in respect of Cork County Council, substituting them for the Commissioners. That will have to be done. In regard to the percentage payable in respect of works that have been carried out, Cork County Council have already paid 100 per cent. We want that cut. We say they should be responsible for only 80 per cent and that work done by them for the protection of Cork county from coast erosion should be treated as having been done under this Bill in the same way as Wexford is being treated in respect of the work they have done at Rosslare. There will be no objection to that. I should like to know if that can be done now or on Report Stage.

Mr. O'Malley

Anything can be done but it is most unlikely we will do it——

Mr. T. Lynch

Would you accept an amendment on Report Stage?

Mr. O'Malley

We will give you time to put down an amendment and we can adjourn discussion of it until then. I should like to point out to the Deputies from Cork, however, that they are going to have a tremendous task in selling the Minister the idea that that could be comparable with Rosslare.

Mr. T. Lynch

Corkmen are great salesmen.

Mr. O'Malley

The representations received to date by the Department of Local Government and my Office have all referred to storm damage. I should like to remind Deputies of the provisions of Section 2 of the Bill, which enable a county council to investigate and have a report prepared on any proposals for coast protection work. I mentioned the last day it would be a good thing to determine the scope of the Bill and the kind of work that could be covered by the definition of coast erosion. We have devoted a good deal of thought to this and we have come to the conclusion that we cannot improve on what is in the text already in subsection (3) of Section 2, which enables a county council to initiate a scheme "if satisfied that land within the county is being progressively damaged"—progressively damaged—"by the continuing encroachment of the sea, as distinct from occasional or abnormal storms, and that the encroachment is liable to endanger the safety of a harbour, the buildings or amenities of a residential area or other valuable property...."

I simply give that information to the Deputies who intend to frame this amendment for consideration on the Report Stage. They will have a difficult task.

Mr. Corry

I do not see any difficulty in it. Perhaps we will even get over the Board of Works in this. The bulk of the money expended has been expended on putting up parapet walls to prevent constant and recurring erosion by the sea. I pointed that out to the Parliamentary Secretary. We are only looking for the same treatment as has been given to Rosslare and Wexford County Council. We are entitled to the same treatment, unless the Parliamentary Secretary is bringing in a Bill contrary to the Constitution, which provides for equal rights for all citizens. I am glad the Parliamentary Secretary has stated he is prepared to accept the amendment on Report Stage.

Mr. O'Malley

I said no such thing. I did not say I was prepared to accept the amendment on Report Stage.

Mr. Corry

What did you say?

Mr. O'Malley

I said I was prepared to consider the amendment.

Mr. Corry

If the amendment before us now goes out, where is the Parliamentary Secretary? We all have our little difficulties to face and we will face them. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. We communicated with the Parliamentary Secretary a pretty long time ago asking that a deputation from Cork County Council be received but it was not until the last minute that was agreed to. We saw the Parliamentary Secretary only this evening at 25 minutes to five.

Mr. O'Malley

And until ten minutes before I came in here, the Deputy was still talking about storm damage. Now he has switched over.

Mr. Corry

I never spoke of storm damage. I am simply asking the Parliamentary Secretary to be fair, as I am sure he will be. I am asking the Parliamentary Secretary to say: "I am prepared to accept from you on Report Stage what I am bringing in myself now in respect of Rosslare." I do not think that is unreasonable.

Mr. O'Malley

Rosslare is a matter of coast erosion.

Mr. Corry

This is coast erosion, too, and I can prove that to any engineer sent down.

Mr. O'Malley

All of it?

Mr. Corry

I am not saying all of it. I told the Parliamentary Secretary today I was prepared to pick out the parts which are coast erosion and stand over them. I am suggesting to the Parliamentary Secretary he agree to have this amendment taken on Report Stage; otherwise we will have to oppose the amendment in connection with Rosslare. There they are to get a refund of five per cent. They paid 25 per cent of the cost, but under the Bill the Parliamentary Secretary is going to pay 80 per cent. Therefore, they will get a refund of five per cent.

Mr. O'Malley

Which would be less than the interest they paid on the money.

Mr. Corry

I do not mind that at all. We did the whole damn thing ourselves up to now without any State help. We got no State assistance in putting up the parapets which were destroyed. In the case of Rosslare, a Bill was passed by this House giving Government funds in respect of 75 per cent of the work. In Cork, we had to do it all ourselves.

Mr. O'Malley

Why did you not wait for the Bill? Why did you spend £57,000 in Cork County Council?

Mr. Corry

I never thought we would be placed in the position in which I find myself today. If the matter were dealt with in the ordinary way, we would have seen the Parliamentary Secretary a month ago, we would have had our amendments down in plenty of time and we would have discussed the matter on the Second Stage. It was not our fault that the Parliamentary Secretary was not able to see us until today.

Mr. O'Malley

Why did you spend the £57,000 last year?

Mr. Corry

Because if we had not spent that, it would be just the same as this Bill being brought in to prevent it. If we did not spend the £57,000 we would be spending £500,000 next year.

Mr. O'Malley

Why did you not spend it the year before?

Mr. Corry

Because the parapets were holding then.

Mr. O'Malley

There you are—the storm damage.

Mr. Corry

What does the Parliamentary Secretary call storm damage?

Mr. O'Malley

What I have told the Deputy.

Mr. Corry

All of those parapets had to be put up five times in the past few years. Some of them had to be put up repeatedly as they were wiped out and unfortunately we were not able financially to make the good job of them that will now be done when the State is giving 80 per cent grant. Will the Minister accept the amendment on the Report Stage?

Mr. O'Malley

Accept it?

Mr. Corry

Yes.

Mr. O'Malley

I said I would consider it. I presume the Deputy and other Cork Deputies will come in armed with facts and figures to substantiate the matter.

Mr. Corry

We will.

Mr. O'Malley

I will also have a lot to say on this on the next occasion.

Mr. P. Brennan

I want to make a plea on behalf of Wicklow town for the period from 1957. I take it that special treatment is being given in this amendment to Rosslare from 1957. We also have had this problem in Wicklow town. As far as I know, a scheme involving the expenditure of something like £5,000, 75 per cent of which was a State grant, was made available to Wicklow in 1958 or 1959, and as Deputy Corry said, what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander and I do not see why Wicklow should not benefit. After all, in an urban area where one penny is worth £44 or £45, it is a greater hardship, in my opinion, on the people in that area to contribute the balance than for the county at large, so that if the Parliamentary Secretary is prepared to consider an amendment from the Cork Deputies, I hope he will be prepared to consider an amendment from me also.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 26, as amended, agreed to.

Sections 27 to 29, inclusive, agreed to.

Title agreed to.

Bill reported with amendments.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Next Stage?

Mr. O'Malley

This day week?

Mr. T. Lynch

How long will Deputies require to put in their amendments? This day week?

Mr. O'Malley

Whatever suits the Deputy. Let us say this day fortnight.

Report Stage ordered for Wednesday, 13th March, 1963.