Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Feb 1963

Vol. 200 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45—Transport and Power.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £52,420 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st day of March, 1963, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power including certain Services administered by that office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The sums provided to finance the activities of Bord Fáilte Éireann in the current year are £725,000 for administration and general purposes, £174,000 for resort development and £160,000 for the payment of grants towards the development of holiday accommodation. I am now proposing that an additional sum of £30,456 be made available to the Board for administration and general purposes and that the provision for holiday accommodation grants be increased by £102,989, making in all an extra £133,445. It has been found possible to set off against this sum savings of £81,025 on resort development, leaving the net sum required at £52,420.

Until 1961-62 Bord Fáilte's annual grant-in-aid for administration and general purposes was limited by statute to £500,000. The Tourist Traffic Act of 1961, which was enacted in August, 1961, provided instead that the general activities of the Board be financed from a global fund of £5 million, the purpose being to allow increased expenditure on tourism for a limited period. The present proposals are in harmony with this objective.

About half of the extra £30,000 for the Board's general activities is to be allotted in connection with a new scheme of hotel staff recruitment and training which has been drawn up by Bord Fáilte in consultation with the interests concerned following a joint study of the problem by a representative working group. The shortage of qualified staff has been a serious problem for the hotel industry in recent years and measures to ensure increased numbers of trained personnel are essential to meet the needs of new and extended hotels and to raise standards of service generally.

Under the new proposals, matters pertaining to staff recruitment and training have been entrusted to a permanent representative organisation established on 1st December, 1962, and entitled the Council for Education, Recruitment and Training (CERT) in the Hotel and Catering Trade. One of the objects of the Council will be to increase the numbers being trained from 240 each year at present to about 1,300 per annum. The expanded programme will cost about £90,000 each year and this cost will be shared by the Department of Education, through vocational education authorities, the hotel industry, the trade union concerned, Bord Fáilte Éireann and income from students' fees. Bord Fáilte were already spending sums varying between £15,000 and £20,000 each year on staff training activities and the establishment of the new Council last December has created a requirement for the additional sum of approximately £16,500 in the current year. There is no ready solution to the immediate problem of staff shortages in the hotel industry but I am satisfied that in CERT we have a satisfactory basis for a long term approach to the problem.

The balance of the £30,000 is to be devoted to the payment of interest grants on loans raised by hoteliers and guest house proprietors for improvement and development work. This reflects the acceleration of the hotel expansion and improvement programme which also gives rise to the requirement of nearly £103,000 for grants for the development of holiday accommodation under Subhead F3.

The grant schemes financed from this subhead are the schemes for new hotel bedrooms and general hotel improvement work and the recently introduced schemes for staff accommodation and for guest entertainment facilities. The Bord Fáilte grants cover only 20 per cent. of the cost of eligible works and the Board's expenditure is, therefore, associated with a much higher investment by the hotel industry itself. Over £1 million was invested in the hotel industry in each of the years 1960, 1961 and 1962 and the amounts being spent on hotel works due for completion this year are of the order of £4 million. When the grant schemes were being introduced Bord Fáilte set a target of 2,500 bedrooms by 1963. In fact, the number of extra rooms will amount to 3,200 by the end of this year of which some 1,400-1,500 will be in middle and lower grade hotels. The proposed spending in the current year of an extra £103,000 on holiday accommodation grants will exhaust the £500,000 fund provided for this purpose under Section 2 of the Tourist Traffic Act of 1959, and I hope shortly to introduce a Bill for the purpose of authorising an increase in the fund to provide for the continuation of the grant schemes.

Deputies will have noted that each of the purposes for which moneys are now sought reflects the growth of our hotel industry and a very welcome increase in opportunities for employment in that industry. I should state that up to now the response by middle price hotels to the offer of improvement grants has been disappointing. Judging by those who have satisfactorily extended their premises the incentives which have been offered through Bord Fáilte should make extension and improvement well worth while. Bord Fáilte has been undertaking a special survey of the position and a great deal of the responsibility for growth depends on such matters as group booking facilities, more private promotion and other factors.

I am glad to say that CERT will interest itself not only in the numbers recruited but in general questions of staff welfare and it will be in a position to make recommendations to the industry on the conditions of employment which will be required to secure and retain personnel. I have already mentioned the grant scheme for the improvement of staff accommodation in hotels which I authorised Bord Fáilte to introduce last year. There is, therefore, a general movement towards increased employment and improved working conditions in the hotel industry with appreciable financial support from the State in all the elements involved in that movement.

I mentioned earlier that there would be a saving of about £80,000 on resort development. I think I should make it clear that this saving does not indicate any cutback in expenditure on this important work; in fact, expenditure this year will be about 50 per cent above the level of the previous year. Deputies will recall that a fund of £1 million was provided under the Tourist Traffic Act of 1959 for the development of major tourist resorts. Expenditure from this fund up to the end of the current year will be of the order of £200,000. It was expected that the complete execution of the scheme of resort development might take up to ten years. The execution of the scheme has been entrusted to Bord Fáilte and, having regard to the fact that in the earlier years the Board have had to devote a great deal of time to the formulation and planning, in conjunction with local interests, of suitable development projects, I do not consider the rate of spending to date to be unsatisfactory. I am, indeed, advised by the Board that they expect that the £1 million fund will be exhausted well in advance of the ten year period.

Tourism was extensively debated when the Estimate for my Department was taken in November-December last and there will be further opportunities for debate when the Bill which I have already mentioned comes before the Oireachtas in a short time. I do not, therefore, propose to take up time on this occasion with general questions. I confidently recommend the Supplementary Estimate to the House.

Mr. Cosgrave

The most notable feature of the hotel expansion programme is the fact that most of the expansion has taken place in the more expensive or what are generally regarded as luxury hotels. I note from the figures given to us that less than half the extra bedrooms which will be provided this year are in what are considered the middle and lower grade hotels. I have repeatedly expressed the view that we should endeavour to a far greater extent to provide increased accommodation for the middle and lower income groups. In the main, the vast majority of the tourists who come here are in those groups. In fact, some time ago I got figures which showed that approximately 70 to 80 per cent. of the tourists who visit this country are in the middle and lower income groups. One is always struck by the amount of publicity which attends the opening of the luxury or more expensive hotels when, in fact, so far as the tourist trade generally is concerned, the advantages derived from it, and I am one of those who have always held the opinion that we secured considerable advantage from the development of the tourist trade, come from the middle and lower income group tourist.

It is therefore important that a far greater effort should be made to extend and develop that accommodation. I gather from the views expressed by the Minister that Bord Fáilte is dissatisfied with the progress being made in providing increased accommodation for the lower and middle income groups. I think one of the factors which have militated against the provision of that increased accommodation, which has prevented hoteliers and guesthouse owners from providing that increased accommodation, despite the generous grants available for this type of work, is the increased valuation which occurs when improvements are made.

That is a matter not directly under the control of Bord Fáilte or the Minister but it always seems to me that there is not much point in the State or a State-sponsored organisation providing higher grants and improved facilities if the effect of legislation under the control of another Minister and operated under the valuation office or the local authorities is to restrict development. That is one aspect of the matter which requires consideration and which will need attention at some time or another.

The great majority of the visitors who come to this country are returning emigrants who come back to spend their holidays at home and the lower and middle income groups. While it is important for us to provide first-class accommodation for those who are in a position to pay for it, it seems to me that far too much attention has been paid to the provision of more expensive accommodation. The vast majority of the tourists who visit this country and spend their holidays here are in the middle or lower income groups. In addition, the tourists in either the middle or lower income groups are more evenly distributed over the country as a whole. The tourists in what might be termed the luxury class generally visit special places. Their holidays are more confined or restricted in the sense that they restrict their visits to particular parts of the country and very often, proportionate to the numbers who come, they spend considerably less than those in the middle and lower income groups.

I believe a far greater effort is necessary by Bord Fáilte and the Department to encourage and induce hoteliers and guesthouse proprietors to provide not merely increased accommodation but better and improved facilities. The training scheme which has been initiated and which has been going on over a number of years through the vocational schools is most desirable. It has provided improved facilities for those wishing to avail of training and experience in hotel work. The vocational schools have provided not merely excellent training but training of a practical kind. This scheme, which is an extension, should encourage those who propose to take up hotel work as a career and as a livelihood to avail of the opportunities which are provided for training in the various aspects of the work as well as the acquisition of knowledge and technical experience in the various aspects of the employment in which they will be engaged.

It is most important that the welfare of those employed in hotels should properly and fully be looked after. In many respects, hotel work is an arduous undertaking. The hours are long. Persons engaged in the business must spend considerable periods of time on their feet. There is a certain amount of hard work and they are engaged long hours in particular undertakings. It is, therefore, important that their welfare and comfort, as well as better pay and other amenities, should be attended to. In recent times, improvements have been made but a great deal still requires to be done in some undertakings.

One of the attractions of this country to visitors is the pleasant manner which people meet with when they visit hotels, guesthouses and restaurants. Our people are friendly, co-operative and courteous. Indeed, it is one of the national attributes that have distinguished our people over the years. The friendly and courteous reception extended here by those employed in hotels and guesthouses not merely assures a warm welcome for those who visit us but results in people returning again and again. It is, therefore, most important that those who are employed and who are providing the services should themselves be properly and adequately catered for.

Contented personnel working in hotels and guesthouses will ensure a friendly atmosphere for those who visit us. Any steps that can be taken, in conjunction with the hotel industry, the vocational schools and Bord Fáilte, to provide proper standards of comfort, and so on, for those employed in the hotel industry should be taken. Proper accommodation and the provision of ordinary necessary facilities require constant attention so that essential improvements may be made.

The prospects for developing tourism here afford very considerable opportunities for further expansion. It is, therefore, essential that all interested—hoteliers, those employed directly in it, Bord Fáilte and the vocational schools—should combine to ensure that the maximum development is encouraged. We must exploit to the full the natural advantages and resources so as to benefit from the full potentialities of an expanded tourist trade which in turn will contribute in a very considerable way to an easement not merely in the balance of trade but ultimately in the balance of payments problem. The scheme provided for here is one which we all hope will develop still further in the future.

Mr. Tully

We believe that the development of the tourist trade is one of the most important things that the Government can do in this country. We think that, in fact, though quite a substantial amount of money is being spent on developing tourism, not nearly enough is being done in that regard. It is a very fruitful field. It has been proved that, approached in the right way, the number of tourists to this country can be increased immensely. They come here for a pleasant cheap holiday. They come here mainly from across the water because there are no language difficulties.

While some people like to go abroad to countries where a different language is spoken and feel they would like to try out on the natives the little bit of French, Italian or Spanish they have—whether or not it is appreciated by the native population is one of the hazards—nevertheless, there are very many people who just want a pleasant holiday with no language complications. For those people who live in the neighbouring island, it is only reasonable that they should take the short trip across the Irish Sea. Very many of them say that when they come here they find the people very pleasant. Unless you go to the west coast or down to the far South, I do not think you will find very much of what is known as the old-world atmosphere in the country now. We have got a little too modern for that. Nevertheless, there is something here which is not found in other countries and if the tourist is treated properly, he usually comes back again and again.

The biggest trouble, of course, is that the Government seem to be developing the wrong type of hotel. I agree with the previous speaker that the people who come here are nearly all working class people who want a holiday at a reasonable price, and the continued development of a series of luxury hotels for the purpose of inducing an incursion of millionaires into the country is not a good idea at all. If the money being spent on these hotels were spread over a number of middle-class hotels and guesthouses, much better service would be done to the country.

It has been proved again and again that the millionaire tourist who comes along from America is on what he calls a package deal, that he does not spend money in the country. He lives within the figure he has paid before leaving the United States and very seldom does he spend money outside that. On the other hand, the tourist who comes from the far side—be he an Irish emigrant or an English friend of his who has heard a lot about Ireland and wants to try it out—has been saving up a certain amount of money, more often than not a substantial amount in a holiday fund, and he spends it here, scattering it about among the small traders, hotels and publichouses.

That kind of tourist is a real asset to the country, unlike the fellow who comes along with his million dollar ideas but who does not spend even one dollar in the country. I had experience of that type of individual in a theatre in this city. There were a number of people present, including two Americans, both wealthy people. They were considering at the end of the programme how they would get to their hotel and I suggested there was no difficulty because there was a taxi rank nearby. I was amazed to hear them say that was not included in the package deal under which they were operating, that they were not prepared to pay half a dollar to get back to their hotel. That appears to be the general attitude of those people and that is why I should like to see more money made available for the development of smaller hotels.

It is true to say that many of these medium and smaller hotels do not avail of the grants. They have told me they feel that Bord Fáilte do not take sufficient interest in them. Some of these hoteliers say that unless they are prepared to spend anything between £5,000 and £10,000 or more on the reconstruction and renovation of their hotels, their applications for grants are not very welcome. That may or may not be true and perhaps the Minister would deal with it.

Mr. Childers

Not true.

Mr. Tully

I have heard that repeated so often. I have had experience of the owner of a middle-class hotel in this country who applied to Bord Fáilte for their co-operation in bringing to this country a group of people from England under an arrangement whereby those people would be able to circulate from hotel to hotel— the hotels being of a certain size. This proposition was being arranged through a hotelier in England who was an Irishman. However, no co-operation was forthcoming from Bord Fáilte, who informed the people concerned that they were not interested in the suggested scheme. The matter was then dropped. If that is true, it is just too bad and something should be done to remedy it.

That brings me to the question of employment in hotels throughout the country. At the present time, we hear a lot of talk of difficulty about obtaining the right type of staff for hotels. People say they find it extremely difficult to get any staff at all. Is it any wonder? Have we not gone around the country, particularly during the holiday period, to find hotels staffed in the main with leaving certificate students who are being treated as little more than slaves by the hoteliers concerned? Every effort is being made by the trade unions catering for the trade in the bigger cities, but those people want cheap labour. They want to employ only people who will work night and day during the holiday period, workers who will suffer bad sleeping accommodation and eating accommodation—goodness knows what type of food some of them get—and then people are surprised if after a couple of weeks these young people run away.

Is it any wonder that youngsters who have gone straight from school to such jobs are disgusted and depressed when they find they are expected to do the work of two or three people for much less than the wages of one? Is that not the reason why, when you go into what is supposed to be a fairly respectable hotel, you sometimes find that the supper utensils from the night before have still to be cleared from the table before breakfast is laid? We do not all go to the posh hotels: most of us go to the middle-class establishments, and that is what we find. I hasten to add that there are hotels in this category who treat their staffs very well and who insist on an adequate number being available, but no matter what the Minister may say, he has got to do something about the position that obtains fairly generally where youngsters are being imposed on by unscrupulous hoteliers. As I have said, the trade unions are doing everything they can to straighten that position out. The result of hoteliers in some cases being allowed to get away with this sort of thing is that more and more of our young people are seeking similar work in Britain or in the Isle of Man. They are doing this for two reasons: first, they get better wages, and secondly, the conditions are better.

It is not enough for the Minister to say this is a matter for the trade unions, that they should be able to put their own house in order. My reply is that it is an impossibility to deal with this matter comprehensively. Consequently, the Government should step in and impose minimum conditions of service and wages in the hotels. I should like to endorse the previous speaker's reference to the courtesy extended in most hotels. It is a pleasure to go into them and to find young people, many of whom are working under enormous handicaps, attempting to keep the fair side out. It must be extremely difficult for many of them to put on a pleasant front.

I do not propose to deal with the question of regular hotel staffing because I expect Deputy Mullen, who is experienced in that matter, to do so at length. I am dealing specifically with temporary staff during the tourist season and I say something will have to be done about the conditions under which they work. The question often posed as to why it is not possible to get holiday staff has been answered by what I have already said. There is another reason also. There are in this country now a number of holiday camps, most of them small, but there is one very big one and it does not seem to have any difficulty whatever in getting adequate staff. The reason, of course, is that there they are prepared to pay decent wages and give excellent conditions. The Minister is aware of this. He should know hotels will never get holiday staff so long as they require young workers to get up at 6 o'clock in the morning and continue throughout the day until 10 o'clock at night, sometimes, for seven days of the week. The reward offered for all that is a meagre wage and how can one expect service and civility under such conditions?

I am interested to hear that there is to be an increased allocation for the training of more people in the hotel business. That is an excellent idea. However, I suggest that the vocational schools continue to be encouraged to assist in this matter because if such training courses are confined to one school in each city, it will mean that quite a number of people who would like to get training for this type of work will not be able to do so. I should like to see it run on as wide a basis as possible.

The Minister said there had been a saving on resort development but added that it was not a cut-back. We have very definite views on the question of the money being spent on resorts. One of the mistakes Bord Fáilte are making is that not sufficient attention is being devoted to the smaller type of resort. Far too much is expected of a resort before it is given any grant. While it is true the officials of Bord Fáilte I have met have been most courteous and helpful, so far they have not come across with very much money for the resorts in which I am interested.

There is an idea that it is all right to spend substantial sums of money on the larger resorts. I grant that the larger resorts are definitely able to cater for a big number of people. Nevertheless, the situation is being reached where the larger resorts are providing almost the maximum amount of accommodation. If we are to increase tourism, therefore, the only hope is to develop the smaller resorts. I have in mind a number of such resorts where the expenditure of a fairly decent amount of money would make it possible for them to cater for many people for whom they are unable to cater at present. I would ask the Minister to bear that in mind and to put across to Bord Fáilte that they should not concentrate entirely on the larger resorts.

I note from the Minister's speech that the number of beds has gone up to 3,200. Is that a fair comment? Have they been provided by hotels or has a very big proportion of the increase been provided by one holiday camp?

Mr. Gallagher

The work of the Minister and Bord Fáilte is creating an ever-widening public interest in the value of tourism, and their efforts deserve congratulation. The progress made to date is satisfactory, but the field is so wide that much more requires to be done. No matter where one goes today, tourism is a topic of conversation. No matter to what town or village you go, the people are ever inquiring how they can attract more tourists. One has constantly to refer them to the facilities available. Even though those facilities are well publicised, the amount of ignorance of them is appalling. The ignorance of the standard required by Bord Fáilte before they give a grant—and it is a relatively simple standard—is also appalling. We all know that where grants are paid, it is necessary that a standard be maintained. The standards set at present are fairly average, but we cannot go too far down the scale. We want to build to a reasonable standard.

It is the lack of appreciation of this by those seeking grants that often leads to criticism in this House. I have spoken to the owners of guesthouses and small hotels who were annoyed because they could not get a grant. I told them I felt the only reason they were turned down was that the work they proposed to do was not of the standard required. This was most unwelcome news to them. There is the type of owner of guesthouse or hotel who likes to do a lot of work for a little money. This tends to result in shabby or impermanent work. We all must appreciate that, if public money is to be spent on the improvement of hotels, the improvement resulting must be up to a standard and must be of a permanent nature so that further expenditure of moneys will not be necessary.

People tend to give the impression that too much is paid in respect of luxury hotels. I think that case is over-stated. A number of luxury hotels are being constructed at the moment, but I think there will be sufficient tourists who can afford to take on that accommodation. There was a shortage of that type of accommodation. At the same time, Bord Fáilte are continuing to show a tremendous interest in the improvement of less luxurious places. We need simple accommodation for the workers from across-channel and elsewhere and particularly for our own people so that they may be able to enjoy a holiday at reasonable rates.

There is no doubt the holiday business will gather greater momentum as the years go by. There is an improvement in the standard of living here, and consequently more people will be able to avail of a holiday. With the development of hotels and guesthouses at all levels, opportunities are provided to entertain our own people primarily, as well as tourists. This brings with it an ever-growing clamour for more Government aid. It is hard to measure to what extent Government aid can be put into that type of business. If it can be afforded, I would go the whole hog and say: "Do everything you possibly can within reasonable limits to encourage initiative in the development of hotels and guesthouses." If there is evidence that the owners themselves lack capital to make their contribution, we should examine the possibility of exploring some other way. I know the matter has already been well examined and that grants, guaranteed loans and so on are available.

It is difficult to see what more can be done. The only thing I can see is that there might be a series of smaller grants. Whether that would be advisable or not should be left to those more experienced in the field. The present minimum grant is something like £500. It is hard to conceive anyone regarding £500 as a large sum in the context of spending money on tourist resorts. However, that is best left to the experts and if they, in their experience, find that a grant could be given of £100, say, on one room or on two rooms, or some proportionate amount, then I would recommend that.

However, I appreciate that the administration of small grants and the inspection of the maintenance of standards, imposes heavy administrative costs and very often it becomes unmanageable and far too costly. The right attitude prevails at present in the country and there is an ever widening interest in the value of the holiday business, providing enjoyment and pleasure for people. This is all to the good. The Minister rightly remarks that there will continue to be a scarcity of trained and experienced hotel workers and the efforts being made for the training of these show vision and far-seeing expectation on the part of the Minister and his Department.

The development of scenic views and other areas continues to make progress but sometimes I think it is very slow. I know from talking to officials in Sligo that it is difficult to activate them into immediate action. They talk about grand schemes for the county and the difficulty of getting the several interests in different parts of the county activated into submitting proposals and bringing out an overall scheme. I wonder if the Minister with his fertile brain for new ideas could suggest how this could best be done. As the Minister is aware, Sligo and the adjoining counties offer much to holidaymakers, whether from overseas or from different parts of Ireland. The position in my county leaves a lot to be desired. There are many enjoyable places to be seen and many things to catch one's eye but I do not think that they are well advertised at all. Whilst I was overseas myself recently, I looked about to see what was known about Sligo and I found very little. It is this type of advertising that I feel calls for a reappraisal and for the production of a national brochure, to be circulated throughout Europe and other places, which would attract potential visitors. The Minister and his Department might develop such a brochure. It would be money well spent and in so far as it would be possible to generate local interest and even a financial contribution towards that end, it would be desirable.

One of the things which I dislike in this House is to hear criticism of tourists of any description or from any country. Each tourist is an individual in his own right and the tourists from each nation have their own particular characteristics. Whether they are Americans coming here on a packet deal or English workers from Manchester, they are all individuals enjoying their holidays in their own particular way.

Mr. Childers

Hear, hear.

Mr. Gallagher

Recently there has been a tendency to criticise American visitors coming here on a packet deal. I wonder if the person who spends his money in a public house is a better type of tourist than the man who spends his money quietly touring the country and seeing what is to be seen? How are you to classify expenditure? What is good and what is evil? What is valuable to the country? Surely any expenditure in the country is highly desirable. We should not praise the tourist who spends his money in the public house and is generous in his tipping and decry the person who may be more cautious about how he spends his money.

We read a lot about developing seaside resorts but I take the view that the whole of Ireland is a holiday centre. It is an ideal country for the tourist who wants a quiet restful holiday. Some people feel that we should turn Ireland into a type of Blackpool, or some such place, but I do not call that real development. Ireland will always be noted for its quite, friendly attitude and the quiet, friendly holiday people can have here, its quiet roads, which if we go further west become even quieter still and which for the normally safe driver are an absolute haven compared with what he has been used to. The development of inland fishing and the opening up of access to all forms of inland fishing is something that could be accelerated.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is travelling a bit from the terms of the motion.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

It is very wide, Sir, is it not?

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but it deals with accommodation and the training of staff.

Mr. Gallagher

I will be guided by you, Sir. The progress and efforts being made by the Minister and his Department and all other promotional bodies deserve our encouragment and continued good wishes. I hope 1963 will record further and better progress and that the lessons we learned in the past will be borne in mind for the future. This holiday business is an industry which should receive the encouragement of all our people and I hope we will continue to put our best foot forward in the interests of our holidaymakers and visitors from abroad and of the people of our own country.

Mr. A. Barry

Tourism is rapidly becoming a most important industry. It is still capable, I think, of enormous expansion. Everything that Bord Fáilte have done in recent years has been sure footed. The image they have created of this country in the minds of those who travel to see us is one to which none of us could possibly object. They have set a standard we shall have to make every endeavour to justify. The work of the Board has been very good. That is using the simplest of words to describe it. I am very glad to see this morning that Trinity College have decided to honour the head of Bord Fáilte, Mr. O'Driscoll. This is another example of the great percipience of Dublin University in noting significant contemporaries here. Mr. O'Driscoll's work has been of outstanding value to Ireland and I am glad it is being recognised.

This proposal with regard to training is an excellent one. This is long-term planning and it should receive the support of both sides of the House. I am sure the vocational committees in the different districts will co-operate fully. To my mind, hotelkeeping is one of the most arduous of human occupations. It is almost a vocation. It requires continuous attention, from the plate to the pillow, with long hours and little leisure. It requires a special kind of persistent, hardworking human being to direct it. We know very valuable properties have been built up over lifetimes by good hoteliers. The Swiss and Italians learned this occupation in the latter half of the last century. It was on the basis I mentioned that the enormous industry in both these countries was originally built. The small hotel in Switzerland and Italy, which provides continuous, unremitting care for the traveller, attention to his needs and to his comfort, has produced that image of these countries with which we are all familiar; they are places where it is pleasant for human beings to holiday. We have a task to face in this country and some of our hoteliers are facing it with commendable devotion. I am sure the Board conceives it is a task. Indeed, the Vote this morning is for planning in that direction.

What I have to say now is less pleasant, and I am sorry to have to say it. There was some criticism last year of high prices. That criticism was not without foundation. I still hear of complaints. Hoteliers should be continually alive to the danger to their whole industry of bad hoteliers seeking to grasp too much too quickly. The countries I mentioned earlier built their great tourist industry on good value. Up to a few years ago we provided that, but within the past 18 months or two years there has been an ominous upward trend. All of us have had experience of that. One tourist returning home with a feeling of having been savaged—that is the only word I can use—by a hotelier will negative all our efforts in the circle in which that tourist moves.

There have been letters in the papers from returning tourists complaining of very steep advances in charges, of fantastic charges for service. Commonsense compels us to admit that these complaints cannot all be untrue. There must be some reason for them. I have known hoteliers to operate two lists— one for the Irish national and one for the tourist. That is deplorable. It is an admission that the tourist is a cockshot; we have got him in and we want to empty his pockets. We cannot do that to the Irish national because he will not put up with it. It has to be remembered, too, that more reasonable charges keep the Irish national's tongue quiet. I direct the Minister's attention to that and I will not be satisfied with the reply that "One swallow does not make a summer" and one bad case does not prove that the whole industry is run in this way. I know the whole industry is not run in this way, but there has been a steep upward—in some cases, violently upward—trend in the past few years. If hoteliers are going to be assisted by the State, by all of us, it will be madness if we do not try to curb the more rapacious among them.

As the last speaker said, the image Bord Fáilte have created of this country is of a quiet and pleasant place in which our hotels will provide them with home life and unostentatious comfort. That image can be shattered by rapacious overcharging. The Italian system of a very firmly controlled grading has much to commend it. The tourist has a guarantee before he travels to Italy; he knows exactly what he will have to pay.

Mr. Childers

The basis is the same here.

Mr. A. Barry

If that is so, I want to know why hoteliers here can charge one price to tourists and another to nationals. That seems to be very bad business.

Mr. Childers

They can be made to refund excessive charges.

Mr. A. Barry

If one goes to Italy and feels aggrieved because one thinks one has been overcharged, does one take any steps subsequently to obtain a refund? Does one not do what most human beings do, not bother about it, but register a black mark against the country and its tourist industry, and talk to one's friends about it to its detriment? Providing legal redress, in the expectation that the tourist will go to the trouble of demanding a refund of this 7/-, 8/-, 9/-, or 10/-, is not really solving it.

Mr. Childers

The basis is the same as in Italy so far as published prices are concerned. I agree with the Deputy that most people do not complain, but the basis of administration is there.

Mr. A. Barry

People will not complain. The bulk of our tourists are blood relations, our own people who have emigrated, our own children returning home for a holiday. That is the base of the business but the cream of the entire expansion must come from the nationals of other countries and we must make sure that they leave this country with the impression that we are satisfied with a fair living from the business they bring to us and that they do not meet any brigandage on the way. This trade, which is of great importance to our economy, is a very delicate plant and one bad and grasping hotelier can injure the whole industry. I regard this as the greatest problem before Bord Fáilte. This proposal is wholly desirable because it is ground planning of the proper kind but that planning that is envisaged for the industry can be undermined by the matters I have mentioned.

Mr. Mullen

The tourist industry is a rapidly growing one. If we look around and notice the behaviour of many people within the tourist industry, we must marvel at its progress. We must also bear in mind that tourism is of real importance to our economy. However, there is a great danger that the gains will be nullified and destroyed if we continue to allow exploiters and interlopers to come into this business, to use it in order to get something out of it and milk it dry.

Tourism is a highly competitive business. This is not the only country that has realised its value or the only country that is attempting to induce people to come with a view to cashing in on tourism. Therefore, there is a great necessity for rigid control of the tourist industry. Charges have already been referred to by the last speaker and I agree there has been overcharging in parts of this country, but I would not like the impression to go out that this is the only country that indulges in overcharging. That is to be found the world over. What I see wrong in regard to the overcharging situation here is that the guests have little or no redress. If they are overcharged, they can, if they want to, go to the bother of getting in touch with Bord Fáilte but what can Bord Fáilte do about it? They are not empowered to do anything about it other than to make representations to the hotelier concerned. They cannot insist on the hotelier doing something about it. More power should be given to Bord Fáilte to deal with that type of establishment. Fortunately there are not a great many of them.

It is very wrong for any catering establishment to avail of such occasions as St. Patrick's Day or All-Ireland Finals to jack-up their prices. Prices are listed in the brochure but they are table d'hote prices. There is no reference to à la carte prices on which some establishments go to town. It is also very wrong for some hoteliers to avail of big conferences coming to the city to increase their tariffs. We had a recent experience of it when the International Variety Club came to Dublin. It was only when some of them were leaving that they were told they were being charged £7 10s. for bed and breakfast.

Fears have been expressed about the luxury type hotel. It should be realised that what is referred to as a luxury type hotel here is not regarded as a luxury hotel in other countries. These new hotels are better described as modern hotels which are coming into line with hotels in other parts of the world. These new hotels are most welcome because there is nothing else which could bring about an improvement in conditions, put all the hoteliers on their toes, make them treat their staffs properly and recognise the fact that the members of their staffs are human beings. There is a very great need for that to be demonstrated.

Reference was made to the organisation of catering staff. It is one of the most difficult tasks that anyone can set out to perform, simply because hotel staffs are people who mostly live on the premises. If it goes down the grapevine that they intend to join the union, word comes back that they will be out of the place bag and baggage in the morning. That threat of being thrown into the street is sufficient to deter them from joining the union.

Quite recently, an attempt was made to organise the catering workers in Limerick city. One of the largest hotels there made it known to the respective heads of departments that if the workers joined the union, they would be out on the street. Although the workers have a constitutional right to join a trade union, somebody is moving against their exercise of that constitutional right. It is not very laudable either for the same hotel to have on its staff in 1963 a page boy with 5/- a week. The same establishment is in a position to get grants from Bord Fáilte to improve its premises. I hold that people who pay taxes and contribute indirectly to these grants do not agree with grants being given to such employers. There should be a condition attached to the extending of those grants that the recipients will undertake to treat their staffs properly and provide them with proper working conditions and rates of pay. It has already been said here by the Minister that that is a matter for the trade unions. I am endeavouring now to explain the difficulty that confronts a trade union in trying to have working-class people treated as Christians and as human beings.

Already in this debate there has been advocacy as to what we should and should not do by way of encouraging tourists to come to this country. I believe we should not depart from our own way of life. We have nothing of which to be ashamed and instead of aping other people, we should continue to be Irish and behave as Irish people. That is what tourists expect to find when they come here. They do not want to find the same surroundings as they have left or something similar. The respective catering establishments should concentrate more on Irish dishes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That point does not arise relevantly on the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Mullen

Reference has already been made to it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

On a Supplementary Estimate, general policy is not debated.

Mr. Mullen

I sincerely hope that we will get away from that inferiority complex in regard to staff training and treatment of staff. I welcome this aspect of CERT. I agree wholeheartedly with giving the amount of money sought here to promote CERT because that organisation will have a very big job. If we consider the system, if any, of staff training that exists today we find that it can safely be described as a glorious Irish stew. In staff training, there is a bit of everything and there is no cohesion and no correlation. The system of staff training in one part of Dublin is different from the system in another part of Dublin, and it is also different from the system in other parts of the country.

There are staff training schools at St. Mary's, Cathal Brugha Street, in Athenry, Bundoran, Rockwell, Shannon, Wexford, and there is the Royal Hibernian Hotel, the Russell Hotel and the Irish Transport and General Workers scheme, and numerous committees have been set up to promote their own staff training schemes. There is no direction or instruction in the curricula and because of that, it is very often found that people are learning things the wrong way. The time has come when they should be correlated, and I am satisfied that that can be achieved through CERT.

I have one criticism of CERT which perhaps the Minister could rectify. I think there should be a little more representation for the workers on CERT. At the moment the employers have three representatives and the workers have one. Reference has already been made to attracting people to the country. I presume I am not permitted to mention it, although some people have mentioned resorts and such matters.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

They mentioned it in passing, but did not fully debate the point.

Mr. Mullen

I shall not debate it; I shall just mention it in passing. I do not agree with the suggestion that we should deter any type of visitor from coming to this country. Everyone should be welcome. I should like to see a little more concentration on the English, the Scottish and the Welsh visitor.

Tipping was mentioned earlier. Some people do not appreciate that tipping is a universal practice. It goes on all over the world. Furthermore, in a great many places the workers who do not get any wages depend on tips. In this country, even in organised establishments, the basic wage is low and, consequently, the worker would be in a terrible plight if he did not get tips.

Since the Minister is attempting to tighten the strings in tourism, I should like him to go a little further with regard to the supervision of guesthouses and set about registering every single guesthouse in the interest of tourism. I also feel that if we are to have real regard for accommodation, we should set out to ensure that only people with qualifying certificates are allowed to manage hotels or restaurants. Also, in the interests of tourism, is there any possibility of bringing the travel agents into line? Some are very good but some have been proved to be very bad.

I should also like to ask the Minister to urge Bord Fáilte to promote the idea of staff going out of this country to demonstrate and display their abilities. I am sure that comes within the ambit of staff training. We have seen some wonderful results in that connection. A few years ago, a group of Irish chefs who demonstrated in part of England were so successful that they won the praise of the press and of ITV. Indeed, Bord Fáilte got a contract for 20 minutes on ITV as a result of the efforts of those chefs. If I am not mistaken, the Minister for Transport and Power was then Minister for Lands and he spoke for 20 minutes on ITV. That is an indication of how our abilities can be appreciated if we are allowed to display them.

Furthermore, such people who are prepared to demonstrate inside or outside this country attract people to the country and they should be encouraged. It should be noted that they are no longer regarded as inferior to the French, the Germans or the Italians. In fact, we have proof that they are as good. On a number of occasions, they brought back first prizes from competitions that took place in England, Scotland and Wales. That is an indication of how we have developed and of the progress that has been made in the industry, and it is proof that we have got the men and women in the industry when they are given the opportunity to display their abilities.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I welcome this Supplementary Estimate. It appears to me to cover two matters. One is the training of more staff, and the other, the extension of hotel facilities. One of the great difficulties here is that the places that are better known from extensive advertising are always overcrowded. People have told me that, when they applied for accommodation in the better known places, they were unable to secure it. For that reason, it is eminently desirable that we should expand and increase our hotel facilities and tourist accommodation generally. I particularly welcome extensions in the outlying parts of Ireland. Heretofore, our tourists were accustomed to coming here mainly through Dublin. Some of them never got any further than Dublin. Many tried to visit other parts of Ireland but they could not get the requisite accommodation.

I feel it is necessary for Bord Fáilte to keep a register of the hotels that are being expanded and extended under this provision. People should be in a position to know what extensions are made and what facilities are available. The registration of hotels with Bord Fáilte can be a rather expensive business. I wonder could the Minister indicate to the House what the average is, and the average overall revenue that accrues to Bord Fáilte as a result? I am thinking more of the average guesthouse or the small hotel in the outlying parts of the country. Is it necessary to retain these high charges because I feel that many people who registered felt it was a rather heavy impost on them, and perhaps some people chanced their arm and tried to get away without registering?

With regard to the training of staff, we need plenty more staff and we need them properly trained as well. Some people imagine that you can bring a girl in from an outlying district and put her on the staff of a hotel and that she is able to function straight away as a waitress, or whatever it might be, in whichever department of the hotel she is engaged. That is quite untrue. It is essential that hotel staff should be trained never to forget anything. When the table is being laid, it is essential that everything necessary should be available on it. The staff must be trained from the tourist point of view as well to welcome the people who come to the hotel, particularly if they are non-nationals.

That brings me to the point which Deputy Barry mentioned with some force. It was a courageous statement to make because is could easily have been misconstrued that he was making a general complaint against all hoteliers. He was not doing that. He was voicing the fact that there are certain people who are overcharging and who are damaging the interests of their colleagues. There should be a graded charge. I do not know if Bord Fáilte have a book in which they compile charges generally and in which they give winter and summer terms.

Mr. Childers

They do.

Sir Anthony Esmonde

I do know that the Automobile Association issues a book in which are given hotel charges, the Automobile Association map and a kind of population survey. A book on that line produced by Bord Fáilte would be desirable so that people would know where they were going and what to expect when they got there. Our greatest difficulty with regard to the tourist trade is that we have a short season. The Minister has been very active in trying to extend the season. In conjunction with other Departments, he has done much good work in extending the coarse fishing season. I feel that is the answer to our hotel problem and to our tourist problem. Many of our hotels, owing to our extraordinary climate, can function only for three to four months in the year. They have to try to make their revenue in that limited period. That problem is not peculiar to this country alone, although the climate in Ireland is more peculiar than it is anywhere else as may be evidenced by the weather we have had this year. Anything that can extend the tourist season is eminently desirable.

In the United Kingdom, they have something of the same problem, although their economy does not depend so much on tourists as ours does. They have made efforts to extend their tourist season by introducing indoor amusements. The people we should endeavour to bring here are tourists of the family type who will bring their families with them and spend considerable money. For them, some sort of indoor entertainment is desirable. Our efforts in the past have been directed towards building dancehalls which are usually available to anybody, whether on holiday or not. The authorities in the United Kingdom have recently concentrated a good deal on the provision of roller skating amenities in the winter months and also skittle alleys. I do not know the type of floor that is required for this but most of the hotels in the rural areas and bigger centres have ballrooms and it might be possible that some of these hotels would provide these facilities so as to extend the tourist season considerably.

That brings me to another possibility of extending the tourist season. I know the Minister has been concerning himself with the great archaeological attractions we have in this country. That would bring in the type of tourist that is desirable, the off-season tourist who will help the hotels to retain the staffs that have been trained. I know this matter has been receiving the attention of Bord Fáilte. I have had experience of this in the Rosslare Strand Hotel where they have a very well trained staff but there is always danger of losing them. Unless these staffs are in the bigger centres, they can only get three or four months' employment in the year and then they have to go away.

I should like to ask the Minister if it is possible to have arrangements made to have our archaeological surveys, which are so much sought after by the new type of tourist, brought to their notice. Continentals and Americans are very desirous of seeing such things. In County Wexford, we have a larger number of old monuments and castles than they have anywhere else because we are one of the most historic counties in Ireland. We have a number of these monuments all over the county but we also have in Wexford hotels which are closed for seven or eight months of the year. It should be possible for some of those hotels to keep open by adopting the suggestions I have made. I should like to thank the Minister for having come recently to Wexford to address us on the tourist industry. Subsequently we had a visit from the Director General of Bord Fáilte so we feel that we are doing very well and that we have much to offer to tourists.

Mr. Sherwin

I should like to say a few words with regard to attracting the workers of Britain to this country rather than the type of tourist mentioned by the last speaker. We have two types of tourists coming here. We have the man with the car and the money who wants a big hotel and who wants to fish. These people very largely go down the country but we should also try to attract the workers of Britain. They might not help the country so much but they would help Dublin.

In the winter here, except when there is a big match, the city is rather flat. There are not so many in the public houses at all, except certain ones. There are not so many in the restaurants. We should avail of that huge potential in Britain who could be encouraged to come here for a weekend. Now that the five-day week applies everywhere, I am sure there are thousands of people who would leave Britain on a Friday and go back on a Sunday or maybe Monday, skipping a half day's work. The secret is to make the transport cheap. When they come here, they have families or friends to go to or they will take bed and breakfast.

The essential thing is to make the transport cheap. CIE have obviously learned that secret in view of their Sunday excursions all over the country now. Dublin-Belfast was a popular excursion once a week. The train was always full. Now CIE have developed and expanded that form of excursion. You can get to Cork, return, for £1. That is cheap and the people avail of it. I understand that only a handful of people travelled to or from Cork on Sundays before the excursion rate. Now the train is full both ways. It is paying CIE. It is bringing large numbers of people from Dublin to Cork. I went to Cork a few weeks ago. The train was full. The price was £1 return. I was at Amiens Street on Sunday, meeting some friends, and the crowd from Cork was there and the train was full.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am afraid the Deputy is getting away from the Supplementary Estimate which deals with the scheme for hotel staff recruitment and provision for holiday resort development and holiday accommodation.

Mr. Sherwin

I am dealing with the wherewithal—the people who will make that possible and successful. Without the people, there would be no need for what is before the House. Deputy Mullen said something about encouraging people to come across. That is why I am enlarging on it. However, I shall not develop it much further. The Minister should cater for the week-end visitor from Britain. It will benefit the city of Dublin. The secret is cheap excursions to get them to come here. They will achieve what the Minister has in mind, namely, the staggering of tourism. His own bogey is that they will all come in a month or two. He could stagger tourism in that sense—in regard to Dublin, anyway — by encouraging people to come to Dublin at weekends throughout the year. It can be done and the secret is a cheap return excursion. That is the answer.

Mr. Corish

Very briefly, I want to say a word of congratulation to Bord Fáilte for the speedy manner in which they have dealt with a project submitted to them for the development of a holiday resort. I refer to the scheme which was sent to Bord Fáilte by a local development committee in Wexford town. I think I should say a word of congratulation to them on the manner in which they dealt with the project because, as far as approval is concerned, I think the whole business broke all records. The Director-General and all the officers who dealt with it should be commended.

It was a formidable project to deal with because there were involved the local authority—in this case the Wexford Corporation — the Wexford County Council, the Department of Local Government, the Department of Transport and Power and Bord Fáilte itself. Within a matter of six to nine months this has been sewn up and I am informed it is ready to be proceeded with.

In Wexford, we are grateful that the matter has been dealt with so speedily because if any part of the eastern coast needs development at present, from an economic point of view, it is Wexford town. The Minister is probably aware that the place has lost a great deal of business because the harbour is now practically abandoned. I do not want to refer to that matter on this Vote as I intend to refer to it in the immediate future.

I believe Bord Fáilte and the Minister can do much more for tourism if they push the idea of the development of holiday resorts. Whilst the majority of people who come to this country desire to enjoy our scenery and the things Deputy Esmonde mentioned, I think an important factor for the tourist is a place where there is amusement for himself and especially for his family. We cannot say we have many such places in this country. I hope I do not leave any out but I have in mind places such as Butlins, Bray, Dún Laoghaire and just a few other places like those.

People, especially those who come from Britain on holidays with their families, want some place where their children can be amused. In the particular place I have mentioned— Wexford—there will be provided a swimming pool, various amusements, a caravan site, a restaurant and all those other amenities that are attractive to the family man. I know it is a question of money. I know the local authority will have to provide a certain amount of money. I would say this investment by Bord Fáilte, through the Department of Transport and Power, and by the local authority will in the long run prove very good for the particular place that decides to develop as a holiday resort.

There is only one other matter, a local matter, which I want to mention. It concerns Rosslare Harbour. The Minister for Transport and Power should try to ensure that there will be better facilities there for the receiving of tourists. He ought to concern himself with the roadway which leads out of Rosslare Harbour and which is the first road that the motorist from abroad has to drive on when he enters this country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I hope the Deputy will not enter upon a discussion on roads now——

Mr. Corish

I shall not. The Minister has no responsibility for this particular road but, as Minister for Transport and Power, I should like him to consult with his colleague, the Minister for Local Government, on this matter and also on the wider matter of designating counties as tourist counties for the purpose of certain grants. It is wrong that certain counties alone should be designated as tourist counties. We should regard every single county in Ireland as a tourist county because every one of the 32 Counties—or, as the Minister is responsible for only 26 of them, let me say the Twenty-six Counties—has something to offer whether it be Donegal, Leitrim, Wexford, Wicklow, Cork, Kerry or any of the midland counties. I suggest they are all tourist counties and any facilities available from this State should be made available to every single county.

The concentration, up to some years ago, in advertising, publicity, and so on, has been on places such as Blarney, Killarney, Connemara, Kerry and Donegal. Counties in the centre of Ireland, counties in the West and some of the Southern counties had a justifiable grievance inasmuch as they seemed to be disregarded by institutions such as Bord Fáilte and State Departments. Little or no publicity was given to these matters at all and therefore I think the Minister should endeavour, by way of grants from other Departments, to ensure that each county will be regarded as a potential tourist area so that certain benefits may accrue to all counties from visitors from abroad.

Mr. MacCarthy

In the promotion and the expansion of the hotel business, apart from the quality of the buildings, I think the most important aspect that requires our attention is an extension to the major hotels we are building of the intimacy and personal interest available in the good family hotels. Good public relationship and personal contact, even with the casual visitor, would obviate anything in the line of later complaints about overcharging or matters of that kind because such complaints could be dealt with on the spot by hotel staffs. This in turn would give to visitors a feeling that their personal interests were being carefully attended to and that the relationship between them and the hotel staffs was on the highest level.

In the matter of training, apart from a good basic education for hotel staffs generally and training in their demeanour towards customers, the general standards set in the vocational schools or other training centres is of the utmost importance. I personally believe that articles by noted feature writers who visit our country and write about the hotels and areas where they spent their holidays are far more effective than the standard advertisement or propaganda now being used. If we could develop that, if we could get more of those writers interested in our country and get them to write about it in the press of other countries, whether it be England or the Continent or America, we would be doing a great service in the work of attracting visitors. When our staffs are trained, it is very important that they should expect regular hours of work and that they could look forward to continuous employment. The absence of these is a great defect in our hotel services.

I think the Minister can be congratulated when, in another Department, he made people river-minded, so to speak. He directed public attention to our lakes and rivers and to the fishing and exercise that can be had on them as an extension to the regular holiday season. That feature also should apply to the big hotels where at the moment people have to spend their nights without any organised entertainment of any kind.

My suggestion is that hotel staffs would have some means of telling visitors what is going on locally. If they were people from France, Germany or elsewhere and if there was say, a French circle meeting that night at which there might be a lecture or some such function, hotel staffs, should be able to inform them and possibly put them in touch with people of their own nation who might be in this country, also on holidays or perhaps even in permanent residence here. This kind of public relationship is one of the most important services we can develop in the hotel industry.

For example, parties of six and eight people have been coming through Cork Airport. Many of these groups come from France to spend a weekend or even a week fishing and shooting and so on in Kerry. Steps should be taken to augment here whatever arrangements they have made so that their visit will be enhanced by giving them knowledge of other entertainments, thereby increasing the interest of their stay. I think the Minister's work in the past has helped considerably in that direction in attracting visitors to the country, and what he now proposes, I suggest, is another step in the right direction. By keeping on the right course, he is ensuring that our country's special features will attract more and more visitors who will go away from us knowing that we have done the best for them. We have got a name from the past for our hospitality and our kindness, for the welcome we give to those who come among us. These characteristics of our national heritage should be preserved and exploited to the full.

Mr. Coogan

I shall refer only briefly to this Estimate. Coming from the major tourist centre of Galway and Salthill, I think I should make a few remarks on tourism in general. Last year in that area, we had one of the greatest tourist seasons in history. While we have a lot to say about the Common Market, we should remember that we have a market here, irrespective of whether we are in or out of Europe, that is not fully tapped. I agree that Bord Fáilte have done a lot but a lot still remains to be done. Bord Fáilte succeeded in developing to a great extent our tourist areas but these are areas which offered opportunities for development in that direction. Therefore, Bord Fáilte should not slow up in their development efforts. They have certain projects in hand which they should expedite.

Another matter I feel called upon to mention here is Galway harbour. Plans for its extension have been coming up to the Minister and I understand he says it is not his fault that there have been delays in finalising the project.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Has it any relation to the Supplementary Estimate?

Mr. Coogan

Yes, it has. What I want to get at is the importance of proper tourist facilities at Galway.

Mr. Childers

That has nothing to do with this Estimate. I have not come here briefed to deal with the whole of my Department and I suggest it would be unfair of any Deputy to suggest that I should. This is absolutely outside the scope of the Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Coogan

From the tourist viewpoint——

Mr. Childers

It is absolutely outside the scope of this Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister has been connected with Galway harbour and whether he wants to wash his hands of it or not, I do not know.

Another very important aspect of our tourist business is the reason why visitors come here at all. They come for a change, but I feel the day has come when we are aping the foreigner so much that our tourist facilities do not provide any change whatsoever for visitors from outside. They come to see our way of life, not merely what they can see in Dublin. I am sorry to say, however, that much of the old way of life here is changing. What I have in mind is the traditional dress or costume—the bainín, the shawl, the Aran form of dress. These are definitely an attraction in themselves, but they are fast disappearing. The Tourist Board should interest themselves in this matter and offer prizes for the best dressed of these people before the traditional dress disappears completely.

We should concentrate more on the English market. The best spender is the worker from England. In two or three weeks here, he will spend more than other tourists from across the oceans.

I do not know if I am in order in bringing up another matter that has been put to the Minister—the question of the closing of the crossing gates on the main line at Oranmore.

Mr. Childers

That has absolutely nothing to do with the Estimate.

Mr. Coogan

I am prepared to give way to the Chair.

Mr. Childers

I would ask the Chair whether a gatehouse on the railway to Galway has any connection whatever with this debate.

Mr. Coogan

I know the Minister has washed his hands completely of CIE.

An Ceann Comhairle

It does not arise on this.

Mr. Childers

I dealt with numerous questions on CIE in detail during the Estimate debate. I could have gone on for another hour, but, because of the arrangement between the Parties, I was not allowed do so.

Mr. Coogan

The Minister has said more about it than I intended saying. I have made my point anyway. We should try to get something racy of the soil and we should appeal more to the cross-Channel people.

Mr. Childers

I should like to thank Deputies for their very constructive contributions to the discussion on this Estimate. I am very glad that tributes were paid to Bord Fáilte all round for the work they are doing. What I have to say is merely in order to comment on the observations of certain Deputies.

First, may I put into its right context the actual position in regard to the number of A class hotels in the country? At the moment in A and A-plus hotels, we have some 6,415 bedrooms, and there are in all 19,630 registered bedrooms in hotels and guesthouses. In addition, Bord Fáilte give publicity to a very large amount of inspected but not registered accommodation in private houses. They have a total of many thousands of these rooms in nearly every county in Ireland, which have been inspected and which are regarded as reasonably satisfactory for tourist purposes.

Next, may I make it clear there is no discrimination by Bord Fáilte against any applicants for the building or improvement of the middle or lower price grade accommodation and that no money is being withheld by Bord Fáilte in any year for such applications in order to ensure that the A class hotels requiring funds are able to get them? There has been nothing of that kind at all. The fact that some 1,400 hotel bedrooms have been built since these grants were made available —and that does not include holiday resorts of the Butlin type but covers genuine room accommodation—shows that it is economic to effect improvement. As far as I know, the people who applied for these grants were not of an exceptional category but were people in the lower price accommodation class who felt that by getting a grant they would be increasing their business.

There is a remission of rates for new building in hotels—a remission of two-thirds for seven years. Deputy Cosgrave was under a misapprehension in that regard. In addition, there is an immediate allowance of 20 per cent. State taxation for new improvements and there is also a remission of ten per cent. in each of the ten years following.

It is true Bord Fáilte insist on certain minimum standards when applications are made in respect of lower price grade accommodation improvements. They must do that. At present they are making available the services of an architect where required to help hotel proprietors design their new accommodation, giving all the possible help they can, particularly to the proprietors of the most modest type of hotel. I have asked Bord Fáilte to pay particular attention to that in the future.

Next, may I say that I deprecate any suggestions made by Deputies that American visitors are not welcome here and should not be encouraged to come here? There was only one such comment in this debate; there were numerous comments in the last debate on the Estimate in general. We welcome Americans here. No matter how it may be thought that tourists from other countries appear to spend more money, there is no question that the Americans leave enormous sums of money behind them in this country. I want to see more of them coming. I want to make sure all the accommodation we can provide is constructed in every town in order to welcome them here. In a recent year, the Americans left something like 18,000,000 dollars behind them in this country.

Mr. Tully

Did anyone say they were not welcome?

Mr. Childers

Quite clear suggestions were made that they were mean and did not spend money. I have absolutely no evidence of that.

Mr. Tully

Nobody said they were not welcome.

Mr. Childers

I should like to say something about the fostering of more tourist traffic to this country in respect of people of modest means. Bord Fáilte always had this in mind. I felt it was a good thing to ask them to reexamine what they were doing, to go over their policy and restate their policy in all its aspects. I found, of course, that that examination was constantly in progress.

I can say that Bord Fáilte are going all out to get the middle price tourist traffic to this country. They are doing everything they can to encourage the package tour business through contacts with travel agents. They are trying to encourage hotels to form chains and to assist one another by passing on demands for accommodation which a particular hotel cannot meet. They are investigating the English market in all its aspects in a more pronounced and definite way than ever before and at the same time, they are doing what they can to encourage better methods of accountancy in hotels, particularly in the middle price grade, and encouraging an understanding of the economics of hotel running by every means possible. Recently there were two appointments to their staff, whose duty, on the one hand, will be to develop the market in Great Britain and indeed all other countries, but primarily Great Britain, and on the other hand, to see what can be done to secure the necessary accommodation and development here.

One of the difficulties we face in relation to traffic of the medium-price grade is the fact that it happens that a great many of our hotels of that grade are only small and even if they added a number of bedrooms, they would continue to be small. What we have to deal with is the provision of middle-grade accommodation for a great many people who like to come here by air or rail and get into a bus and travel through the country. This immediately involves accommodation for 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60 people, all of whom are only prepared to pay very reasonable prices. This problem is being examined and I am quite sure Bord Fáilte will be able to do the same fine job of stepping up the number of travellers in that grade as they have in the past.

May I say in this connection that a great deal has also to be done by the hotel world itself and by those who are interested in tourism in local areas? The promotion of regional tourist development associations is quite essential if we are to attract more people here. The appointment of a promotion manager for the Galway-Salthill area for the new development association there was an excellent thing and I commend all concerned with it. There will have to be a greater expenditure locally to secure tourists and greater local publicity and contacts by local associations with travel agencies in Britain and the issuing of invitations to travel writers to come here.

The preparation and the promotion of archaeological tours and so forth cannot all be done by Bord Fáilte. No tourist agency in the world, to my knowledge, is expected to do all that kind of work. I want to make it clear that if we are to see tourism develop, we will have to remember, whether we like it or not, that the Kerry tourist area is competing with the Brittany tourist area, or the Burgundy tourist area or the Ostend tourist area, and it is not only a question of how much Bord Fáilte spends as against how much the Belgian national tourist office spends, or how much the French national tourist office spends; it is how much the Kerry area is spending as against how much the Brittany area or the Ostend area is spending.

I am very glad to see that a number of tourist associations are springing up everywhere in order to play their part in tourist development. There was a suggestion that Bord Fáilte publicity does not cover all the areas of the country but the general holiday guide published by Bord Fáilte—which is a very fine publication; this year it has coloured pictures and contains an immense wealth of information—does cover all the country, as does most of their publicity. But I must emphasise that more local publicity is advisable.

Some comments were made about the question of staff in hotels and some very critical comments were made by Deputy Mullen and Deputy Tully. From my information, staff conditions vary enormously throughout the country and there have been, I am glad to say, improvements in staff conditions in rural areas as well as in the areas in which the trade unions are able to insist on minimum conditions. I want to see that improvement continue. I am perfectly certain that once the staff training facilities get going, and newly trained staff come into the rural areas, improvements will have to be made in staff conditions if the trained staff are to find their work acceptable and their conditions acceptable. I think it is true to say that wherever there is technical training of any kind, inevitably conditions improve as a result.

It may be noted that one of the terms of reference of CERT is to make recommendations for conditions of employment and for staff conditions, if they so desire. Their powers, as I have said, are purely advisory in that connection and I do not think it would be possible, at least at present, to ask them to do more but at least they can make recommendations.

I should make it clear that it has not been easy for hotels, which offer good conditions, to get staff in recent years and it could not be true to say the only reason why staff is difficult to get is that the conditions are bad. As everybody knows, it has been very difficult to get staff under any circumstances. I hope as a result of the hotel training scheme, that the whole craft of hotel management and service in general will become more respected throughout the country as it is in Switzerland and as it is in the Netherlands. There is no reason why the Swiss, who are a highly developed people, should feel that hotel service is a most reputable occupation but that here there is something demeaning or lowering in hotel service or domestic service of any kind. The best way of getting over that is to have proper training and the whole occupation will be more respected.

I should also say that at the very height of the season, when there is an enormous passage of tourists in hotels, the work will always have to be pretty tough at times. One cannot expect that hotel work at peak periods can be anything but hard, but there is a certain amount of enjoyment in work well done, provided, as I say, the conditions and the food are as good as they can be. There has been, as Deputy Mullen mentioned, a good deal of hotel training already and it is not as if Bord Fáilte were initiating for the first time a training scheme. I looked up the figures for last year and I found that in 1962, over 300 personnel were trained under the auspices of different colleges and schools, quite apart from those who may have received training in vocational schools and who are not counted in the report I read.

Deputy Mullen asked if it would be possible to register all premises, including restaurants, used by travellers of every kind. I am afraid we will have to move slowly in that direction. It would be quite impossible, administratively, to do that. It would require an enormous staff and it would be better to keep to the present system of registration. I should say that unregistered guesthouses are inspected by Bord Fáilte. I can also say that in the coarse fishing areas of the north east, of which I have very definite knowledge, there have been few complaints in the past two years in regard to food and service. There is every comfort in these unregistered guesthouses patronised by coarse fishermen. On the whole, they are very well run indeed and the coarse fishermen go away extremely happy and content with their experience.

I agree with Deputy Mullen that we should encourage demonstration of Irish culinary art wherever possible abroad. I should hope that, as the number of our really competent and high-class chefs grows, we shall be able to say that we have a definite culinary art, even if it is in its infancy, and one day I hope we will be able to compete with countries that already have a great tradition.

Deputy Esmonde asked whether the imposition of registration fees discouraged hotels registering. If an institution wants to call itself by the name of "hotel", it has to register. The fees received in 1962 were something over £10,000, representing a total of 19,630 bedrooms. I do not think that could be regarded as excessive and I do not think it should discourage registration, which means, incidentally, that the name of the hotel is published in the Bord Fáilte hotel guide, which has a very wide circulation.

Mr. A. Barry

What is the circulation?

Mr. Childers

Through all the Bord Fáilte offices.

Mr. A. Barry

What is the number?

Mr. Childers

I could not say. Deputy Esmonde also raised the question of the comparison between the Automobile Association and the Bord Fáilte lists. Bord Fáilte provides a general holiday guide. There is also a map, and there are numerous other pamphlets with maps. I think the hotel book is presented very satisfactorily. There is an improvement in it again this year. More information is given. I think it is satisfactory.

Deputy Esmonde also spoke about the provision of entertainment for visitors. Grants are given for recreation rooms in hotels. Small grants are given for miniature golf courses, croquet lawns and tennis lawns associated with hotels. Bord Fáilte is doing what it can to encourage entertainment, all with a view to extending the season, as was suggested.

It was Deputy Esmonde, too, who spoke about the need for taking an interest in our archaeological monuments. Bord Fáilte have arranged on occasion some lectures, but, again, I think this is a matter really for local development associations. They should encourage people who belong to the archaeological and other learned societies to make contact with people abroad with a view to getting them to visit here. The Office of Public Works also has its responsibility. I understand a new archaeological guide is being prepared. Recently Bord Fáilte published a general leaflet on the archaeological monuments in the country. This should, I think, be a combined effort, so far as they can contribute, on the part of Bord Fáilte in its general publicity and local development associations.

Deputy A. Barry spoke about hotels charging excessive prices. Under the terms of their registration, hotels must not exceed the prices published in the hotel book. There were some 548 complaints in the period from 1961 to 1962.

Mr. A. Barry

How did the figure compare with the previous year?

Mr. Childers

Just a few more. An analysis of these complaints showed that a great many of them were of failure of hotels to reply to correspondence. There were some complaints with regard to inefficient service, poor standards of accommodation and overcharging. The majority of the hotels were co-operative, made amends, and offered refunds. Quite a number of the complaints of overcharging were due to genuine errors in accountancy and could have been settled on the spot had the visitor complained at the time.

Mr. A. Barry

Visitors are rather shy.

Mr. Childers

I realise that. In the case of the few serious and repeated complaints strong action was taken by Bord Fáilte. They have the right, if they so wish, of removing hotels from the register if they do not follow the charges clearly printed in the hotel book. But we should not exaggerate these complaints.

Mr. Coogan

Could these charges not be displayed in the hotel?

Mr. Childers

That could be done. I think a great many hotels do it.

Mr. Coogan

Make it obligatory.

Mr. Childers

I think the hotels must state the charges to guests, if the guests requested them. They must show what their charges are. Even if a guest has not got a copy of the hotel guide with him, the proprietor is bound to show him the charges.

Mr. Donnellan

They do not overcharge in Galway.

Mr. Childers

We should not exaggerate the number of these complaints.

Mr. A. Barry

But we must wipe it out where it obtains because it does great harm.

Mr. Childers

I agree, but it should not be exaggerated. It is bad publicity for the country. If the vast majority of our hotels keep to the published rates we should not exaggerate the effect of the minority who do not do so. We must keep a balanced mind with regard to it. I would advise all hotel proprietors to do their best to run their premises efficiently, mechanise where that is possible and desirable, provide good conditions for their workers with reasonable pay, and make a reasonable profit. In the long run, that would be the best way in which to make a living and provide employment.

Mr. A. Barry

We should also seek to create an atmosphere in which, if there is overcharging of any kind, the hotel proprietor will be dealt with publicly. That would put a stop to any tendency to overcharge.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Sherwin talked about encouraging excursions to Dublin. I have always encouraged CIE and other transport companies to make as many experiments as possible with cheap excursion tickets, to fill the trains and the boats, and I shall continue to do so.

Deputy Corish spoke about the necessity for stimulating resort development. Bord Fáilte are spending a considerable sum of money on that. Indeed, Deputy Corish paid a very special tribute to them for what they have done in Wexford. As I said earlier, local initiative is also essential in regard to resort development.

Deputy MacCarthy spoke about the necessity for managers of hotels to show a personal interest in their guests I should like to encourage that. A great many of them do show such an interest. I was in a hotel in Cork city the other night and, before I was five minutes in my hotel bedroom, a very pleasant member of the staff came, knocked on my door, and asked me if everything was satisfactory. That was a nice tradition. It might be adopted elsewhere.

Mr. A. Barry

The Minister was a Minister of State.

Mr. Childers

No. I heard the good lady go to the next room, and knock on the door, and several other doors. It was nothing obviously to do with my being a Minister.

Mr. Coogan

Maybe she wanted to impress the Minister.

Mr. Childers

I am quite certain it was not done to impress me. We should not be so cynical. It is really desperate the stage to which cynicism can go. It is a very bad practice.

Deputy MacCarthy also pointed out the value of inviting travel writers to Ireland. Bord Fáilte do quite a lot of that work already and I do hope again that local tourist associations will invite travel writers to their areas and provide them with the local flavour so that you will have a travel writer coming to write exclusively about Cork or Kerry or Wexford. Bord Fáilte cannot spend more than a certain amount of their funds on that kind of publicity work. They divide up their publicity budget in the very best way possible. My own belief is that many of these travel writers appreciate even more being invited by local associations than by the national tourist board and I hope that practice will develop.

Deputy Coogan suggested that the custom of wearing national dress was disappearing among the Aran Islanders and among the people of Galway. The Aran Islanders will have to decide for themselves whether they wish to preserve their national dress as is being done in the Island of Marken and Volendam in the Netherlands. If there are to be prizes for national dress, that is quite obviously a matter for local development. If Bord Fáilte were to intervene in matters of that kind, where would they be? If ever there was a case for something being organised by a local development association, surely that is one, as to whether, even during certain festivals or at certain times of the year, our people would put on traditional dress. I myself would hope that the Aran Island dress will not entirely disappear but I can see the tendency is there, as it is in many parts of the world. Great efforts are being made in other countries by a number of local tourist associations or local cultural societies to preserve this form of dress at least for special occasions, for summer festivals, and so forth, even though for the rest of the year people wear normal dress. It is a matter for local consideration.

I equally agree with Deputy Coogan that more should be done about Irish entertainment. In every speech I have made to chambers of commerce or to development associations throughout the country, I have said it is an appalling thing that a great number of our visitors never hear Irish songs beautifully sung in Irish or English and they hardly ever see good Irish dancing. There is a change in that. CIE hotels have set a very fine example as have some other hotels in providing good Irish entertainment. That again is very much a matter for local tourist associations or for local cultural societies to ensure that entertainment of that kind is given.

Some organisation is needed in that respect. Nothing could be worse than a low standard of entertainment or to invite along a person who happened to be the local singer if the singing was not of a high standard. I hope that groups in local areas will do something about that. The hotels may have to help if only to arrange that the particular singing or dancing group is moved from hotel to hotel with some co-ordination. It is a matter of organisation and I hope everybody will do what they can in that regard.

I should like to thank the members of the House for the helpful and courteous way in which they have received the presentation of this Estimate.

Vote put and agreed to.

Supplementary Estimate reported and agreed to.

Sitting suspended at 1.5 p.m. and resumed at 2.30 p.m.