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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 12 Mar 1963

Vol. 200 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

Before resuming, may I extend to the Minister for Finance a welcome back to the House and, I hope, a return to full health. During his absence, I am sure he had an opportunity to peruse the discussions that went on here last week. If he had, he must have been pretty well appalled at the contradictory statements made by his colleagues in relation to the economic condition of the country.

When I reported progress last Thursday, I was dealing with the difficulty which the House finds in examining State finances. The figure on the Book of Estimates is enormous. It is a record figure but, in itself, it is not the most suitable figure to compare with expenditure in past years because the Minister secured the co-operation of his colleagues in the different Departments in transferring back to the shoulders of the ordinary consumers a great deal of expenditure that is normally borne by the State.

The House will recall that having attained office in 1957, in one fell swoop, the Government abolished the food subsidies. For that reason, one would have expected that the figure on the Book of Estimates would have been reduced in each year since by £9 million. Some people thought that was extravagant expenditure for keeping down the cost of the necessaries of life and that by the abolition of the food subsidies in the way they were abolished, that amount of money would have been saved. Those people got a rude awakening in a very short time.

The House will also recall that at the time of the abolition of the food subsidies, it was indicated that they were being abolished for the sole purpose of reducing the level of national spending and easing the situation for the Exchequer. People who were critical of the reduction and eventual abolition of the food subsidies foretold the consequences of the Government's action. The partial removal of the food subsidies was reflected in each Department of State as well as at local authority level. Money had to be voted by the State and by local authorities to cater for the increased cost of maintaining the existing services and an increase had to be given to cushion State employees against the impact of the increased cost of living.

The ordinary consumer had to find additional money to pay for the loaf of bread, for the lb. of tea, and for other necessaries of life. He also had to find money to recompense State servants so that their standard of living would not be drastically reduced by the cost of living increase. The figure in the Book of Estimates snowballed as time went on until, in defiance of solemn assurances and categorical statements as to what the years would bring, the Government are now compelled to present this record bill to the people.

It is not alone in relation to food subsidies that the Government have succeeded in passing on to the consumer the impact of expenditure formerly borne by the Exchequer. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs increased postage and telephone charges. Anybody in business knows when he balances his books the additional cost involved in these increases. The ordinary man in the street may not be too worried because he may not write many letters or make many phone calls but he must be aware that business people have to find the money to finance these increases in their costs of operation. Consequently, as has been the practice following an increase in costs of production, it is the consumer who has to foot the bill.

This year, the Book of Estimates is being examined in a situation where there is a deficit of £100 million in our trade position. The house will recall that at the time this Government assumed office, they had absolutely no problem in relation to the balance of payments, which was the result of the firm action of their predecessors, which was commented on by the present Taoiseach as having been successful and desirable action. Nothing has transpired outside the shores of this island since this Government assumed office which was in any way inimical to maintenance of that balance of payments position. If we have a deficit in the balance of payments, it is the administration of this Government that must be held responsible for it.

It is difficult for us to have to rely on governmental estimations of what is to come when we cannot get a true picture even in relation to occurrences over the past year. A great deal of consideration has been given to the question of the amount of money which is coming into this country from outside; how much of it is hot money; how much of it is being brought in for the purchase of Irish land by foreigners, and so on and so forth. For several months, we in the Fine Gael Party bombarded the Government with urgings at least to maintain a register of the aliens purchasing land in this country. Eventually, a register was created but it was too late to record the entire transactions in that respect over recent years. We have had a statement by the Minister for Lands that the amount of capital that came into the country as a result of the purchase of Irish land by aliens was not more than £500,000 and in the discussion on the Government White Paper, the Minister for Finance gave a figure of approximately £1 million. There is a substantial discrepancy in the estimates given by the two Ministers of a figure which should be readily available. If it is not available, how can anybody outside the Government estimate what is occurring in relation to transactions of that kind if the Ministers responsible give figures which are at variance to the extent of £500,000?

It is in that situation that we have been critical for some time in regard to this matter. The Leader of the Fine Gael Party and Leader of the Opposition has pointed out on a number of occasions over the past 12 months that there were indications that difficulties were arising in our economic position but very little heed was given to his warnings. The House will recall that in the debate on the Adjournment prior to Christmas, Deputy Dillon stressed that point and that the Taoiseach, when he came to reply, did not even avail of the time at his disposal to review the economic situation of the country. We were surprised at the brevity of his reply. In the spirit of festival geniality, he wished us all a happy Christmas and he raised the morale of his own Party by indicating that everything in the garden was lovely, that there was no matter of concern on the economic scene.

Consequently, the situation was complicated when the Taoiseach was compelled, within a month or so of the resumption of the Dáil, to introduce a White Paper. The Taoiseach has back-pedalled in respect of it but it was introduced for the purpose of bringing home to the people that it was necessary for at least one section of the community to tighten their belts, that the situation facing the country was not quite as rosy as it had been painted on the eve of Christmas by the Leader of the Government.

With regard to the balance of trade position, the Minister for Transport and Power gave us a lengthy lecture here last week on the evil of taking more out of the economy than the country can afford. He referred to activities of the Government and to the fact that there was a tremendous campaign for increased industrial and agricultural exports. Yet, there is a fall in exports. It may not be a great fall but it shows a change in the trend. We see this year a reduction in exports, despite the heavy imports which we were told were expressly for the purpose of bringing about an increase in exports that would make it possible for everyone to enjoy a higher standard of living.

Then there was another example of the habit which members of the Government, particularly their leader, have of treating this House with contempt, namely, having decided to take particular measures, denying that information to the House and waiting until Deputies had returned to their homes at weekends to learn over Radio Éireann, when we had a news service there, or to read in the newspapers, that the Taoiseach or some Minister of Government had gone to some banquet and had made an important statement which could very well have been made in this House.

The Taoiseach replied to the debate on the White Paper Closing the Gap but he did not refer to the fact that he had already prepared in his briefcase a speech which he would make to the Limerick Junior Chamber of Commerce meeting which, the Taoiseach told us last week, was synonymous with a Fianna Fáil cumann. He told us chambers of commerce and Fianna Fáil cumainn were one and the same thing. That is an extraordinary statement. I wonder what will be the effect on many young men who are engaged in business in this country and who are actively engaged in chambers of commerce to learn that these meetings are nothing less than political Party meetings?

The Taoiseach announced in Limerick, and in more precise detail later, that the budgetary system that we had was not enough to satisfy a Fianna Fáil Government in exacting from the pockets of the people the moneys required for expenditure and that it was the intention of the Government to superimpose on our existing tax structure a new system of taxation. Only a matter of weeks after, we were told that there was an inflationary trend in the country that must be halted if the economy was not to suffer severely. Could any statement be better designed to encourage spending and, in particular, spending on imported articles, than the statement the Taoiseach made at Limerick?

The immediate response, from the people engaged in the sale of articles likely to come within the scope of the Government's proposal regarding a sales or turnover tax, came by way of expensive advertisements saying: "Buy now; jump the gun before the Government get a cut at you. Buy now before prices go up." Was that a contribution towards easing the inflationary trend that we were told was developing? To me it was reminiscent of the advice given by the present Taoiseach when dealing with the tea situation during the war years and when he told the people: "Those of you who have money, buy tea and shove it under the counter. I am going to ration tea later on." The unfortunate poor old people down the country who were afterwards dependent on the quarter-ounce had to pay £1 per pound to blackmarketeers for the tea these people were advised by the Taoiseach to buy before it was rationed.

So now we have the consequences of the announcement made that at some later date the Government intend to introduce this additional taxation. This Party, in collaboration with the other Parties in the inter-Party Government, set up the Income Tax Commission. Their terms of reference were to examine the existing income tax code and bring it up to date and, if at all possible, substitute a system of taxation other than the one which fell too heavily on too few people. We were disappointed at the report of the Commission that it did not pinpoint an alternative and entirely new system of taxation that would be more equitable but, included in the report, and carried by a majority of only one was a recommendation that a sales or turnover tax be substituted for income tax.

In speeches made by the Taoiseach when he repaired to Limerick and in subsequent statements, the picture presented by the Government is that, despite the fact that we have buoyancy in revenue which exceeded expectations last year, despite the inflow of tax in that period, the level of expenditure proposed for the coming year and thereafter will be such that any additional imposition on the tax structure can only reduce consumption to the point that that revenue would not be forthcoming. So what was intended as an alternative to income tax is now to be superimposed on the existing tax structure and new methods are to be devised and implemented to take more money out of the people's pockets so that the Government can say that they are the great spenders and that they are the people well fitted to do it.

Last Thursday, when I was developing this point, Deputy Dolan interjected a remark about the inter-Party Government having spent the Marshall Aid moneys. Government speakers on this occasion seem very anxious to divert attention from 1963 and what may happen in 1964 as far as they can. They like to go back to dig up old controversies and distract the attention of the House from present day problems. Deputy Dolan did not say that the former Leader of the Party now in office confessed at Youghal on the occasion of a by-election in that constituency—which incidentally, Fine Gael won—after many months of controversy that £22½ million had been left and that he and his Government had disposed of it entirely within six months. Then, they have the nerve to get up and talk of the spending of the Marshall Aid money by the inter-Party Government. So much was said about the iniquity of the inter-Party Government spending that money that one would think immediately Fianna Fáil assumed office they would say: "Let us live up to principles we advanced while in opposition; let us hand back the balance of these moneys." Instead, that money came in very useful and was spent within six months.

This is characteristic of the present Minister for Finance who, like others in his Party, made full capital out of the difficulties here arising from the temporary levies imposed in 1956, levies solely intended to rectify the balance of payments and not a penny of which was intended to go into current revenue. That assurance was solemnly given by the Minister for Finance but we then had the present Minister for Finance assuming office and removing the levies, according to a bannerhead in the Irish Press but substituting exactly the same amount by way of import duty. I know of garage concerns where I live and of people who intended to purchase motor cars who were highly critical of the 15 per cent levy imposed at that time on car sales. These people, or some of them, purchased “Truth in the News”, the Irish Press, and read in heavy type: “Import Levies Removed.” That was wonderful news for the country, an immediate reduction of 15 per cent expected in car prices, but in very small type it was stated that there was to be substituted an import duty instead of the temporary levies imposed by the inter-Party Government to do a particular corrective job in regard to the balance of payments.

Last week, the Minister for Transport and Power claimed that all increases the House is being asked to meet are designed to increase production. We can recall in the past year when Ministers were in an expansive mood, attending dinners and banquets in an atmosphere of popping champagne corks and cigar smoke with nobody in front of them but people prepared to say "Well done" to everything that was preached to them, the impression was created that there was plenty of the national cake, that everybody must be happy and that every section should get everything they required. There was not much reference then to the type of restraint now creeping into Government Ministers' statements regarding increases designed to increase production. We had a Minister coming in and asking the House to vote the sum—not a large one—to increase judges' salaries. That increase was backdated in order to bring within the scope of it an individual who had already retired from State service. Was that to increase production? Can the plain people in the ranks, even in the Department concerned with the man on the beat, be blamed if they expected some better income for the work they were performing?

The Minister could say there was no case for the judges' increase on the basis of sheer necessity, that it was a status payment. When we embarked on giving out status increases, it was to be expected that the ordinary people would take into account statements repeated by Government Ministers that everything was going extremely well and that the country was in an ideal position to face up to any special charges on the community. We will examine in the course of this debate how well the country could afford it.

I referred earlier to some of the items which the Government succeeded in transferring from the Book of Estimates and which the people are now called upon to bear every day of the week. I referred to the food subsidies and to the increases by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. There are others. We have had bus and rail fares increased. The users of buses here in this capital city of Dublin— this "rotten" city, as it was described by Deputy Corry last week—in company with the users of buses in Cork, Limerick and elsewhere have all had to pay increased charges for the use of the public services. The same can be said of the rail users. What was the purpose of these increases? We were told they were designed to eliminate from the Book of Estimates any charges arising out of the subsidisation of public transport. Naturally, if every time they purchase a ticket, these people are paying more for transport in order to eliminate the charge on the Exchequer, they would expect a consequent reduction in the Book of Estimates. It will be hard to explain to them why they have to pay twice.

The same may be said of social welfare contributions. It was a deserving and overdue development to give increased pensions to the workers of the country, but it must be said that the young workers and their employers will be paying increased contributions for many years to come. That is also a charge on the community. We can refer to the fact that to-day, despite the estimate that the Health Act would not involve more than 2s in the £ on the rates, we have the situation in which the Minister for Health found it necessary to increase health charges, even outside the scope of the £20 million it is now costing to operate the health scheme.

It was represented in the past in the area west of the city of Cork, extending to Bandon, Timoleague, Clonakilty, Skiberreen and on to Bantry, with offshoots to various other parts, that the railway line there would have to be abandoned in order to relieve the Exchequer of the cost of paying a subsidy to CIE. The people in that area would not be given a hearing. They would not be allowed to meet either the Minister or the directors of CIE, and their railway line was taken from them. Today that has impacted on every business in all that area in the form of higher transport costs. They found that the alternative road services substituted, which they were told would be comparable with the rail services, resulted in their having to pay considerably higher charges than they paid before the line was closed. The whole of that area has been to some extent classified as depressed, because in the opinion of the powers-that-be, there was no indication that there would be any future developments in the regions to bring a lucrative income to the public transport system.

When the services were taken from those people, they expected that, if the Government had no longer to come to the rescue of these non-paying lines, when the Book of Estimates was published, there would be a consequential reduction in the amount of money the State would have to find in order to maintain the railway system. Where is that reflected in the bill this year? It will be now brought home to these people that their service has been taken from them, that no substitute service has been provided in many instances, and, as well as that, they have to pay higher taxation than before. That is something it will be difficult for the Government to explain.

Reference has been made by members of the Government to the fact that, in their opinion, the emigration problem has been solved—that we have had such a diminution in emigration that it is no longer a great problem. We have the situation in which 250,000 of our people were exported in the course of five years. Last year, 67,000 went to England alone. May I quote as a reference for that a publication published by the British Government, Command Paper No. 1586? It shows that the number of persons from the Irish Republic entering national insurance in Britain were in 1959, 58,316; in 1960, it jumped to 72,962; and in 1961, there was a slight drop to 67,598. We cannot keep that up. The supply will not be there. Any of us who know rural areas will fully appreciate the falling off in the population in rural parts. Some of our small towns are feeling the brunt of it since there are fewer people to consume the goods they have to sell. In addition, in many small towns, there is no substitute for the employment that was expected to be created in the course of time. We find the workers leaving for employment in England and, worse still, in America, from which it is unlikely they will come back as readily as they may come back from Britain.

There is no cause for complacency in relation to the emigration problem. Deputy Meaney could bear out my experience. In fact, some of the people concerned would be more friendly towards his policy than towards mine. I know of two farmers who disposed of their holdings within the past week and left for America. They completely cut their roots in this country, at an age when one would not expect them to take such a drastic step. That step was taken in defiance of the Taoiseach's complacency last week regarding the wealth of the dairy farmer. These were two dairy farmers. They abandoned their farms and went to America. We have no indication that there is any diminution of emigration from rural parts, as we have been led to believe. In any event, it would have been humanly impossible to have maintained the outflow of boys and girls such as obtained during that five year period.

Statements are made from time to time regarding the amount of employment being provided for our people. There is a fact that should be repeated so that much of the ballyhoo will be removed from the outrageous claims regarding the numbers provided with employment. We welcome any opportunities that present themselves, no matter by what means, of guaranteeing our people new sources of employment in their own country. The whole idea of encouraging people with the capital, know-how and the markets to come in and start industries here was thought of originally at the time of the inter-Party Government and it was in complete contradiction of the policy enshrined in the Control of Manufactures Act introduced by a previous Fianna Fáil Government many years ago.

Nevertheless, we see some good flowing from some of the industries established by foreigners in the course of the past few years. We welcome these improvements but we must say that not in every instance has the result been as favourable as the amount of money and attention expended would warrant. There are instances in which we know that what is practically child labour is being employed by some of these concerns. It may be too soon yet to adjudicate on their intentions. It may be, as time goes on and as these employees become more proficient in their work, that their pay will be raised as well as their status. Nevertheless, some of these industries are not giving the type of employment to the heads of families, or giving the attention to their workers that is expected and which has been the habit of Irish employers over the years, with very little assistance from the State. It is to be hoped that the position will improve.

The fact that I want to put on record is that, despite the investment of so many millions by way of incentive to all and sundry to establish industries, the situation, as revealed in a reply to a Parliamentary question at column 894 of the Official Report for last week, is that the highest level of employment which this country has experienced occurred in 1954 when 507,000 were engaged on average in insurable employment. We note that that figure reduced last year to 486.6 thousand. These figures are available at column 894 of the Official Report and they are not figures that were pulled out of the air. They were provided by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach who is responsible for the statistics section of the Taoiseach's Department. Consequently, I assume they will not be contested by any Deputy supporting the Government. That situation obtains in spite of the solemn assertion of the Leader of the Government who, when speaking on a famous occasion in Clery's Ballroom, guaranteed the provision of 100,000 new jobs.

He did not.

What, that guarantee was never given? Thanks be to goodness, there still remain this evening and tomorrow and other speakers will be able to reintroduce that matter, that he did guarantee 100,000 new jobs. The Minister has yet to speak and he will get the opportunity of countering anything I say.

It is just a question of fact.

The question of fact was resolved. Is it suggested that that statement about the 100,000 new jobs was never made?

There was no guarantee given.

The Irish Press never published it?

They did, but not a guarantee.

We cannot believe what the Irish Press says? It was accepted by the people and you are in office because of it. The Minister would not occupy the Ministry that he does only for that statement.

And occupying it very well.

It was a very attractive inclusion in your policy.

Perhaps the Minister would let Deputy O'Sullivan make his speech.

I know that the Deputy is a fair man and I do not want to see him——

On a point of order. The Minister should allow Deputy O'Sullivan to make his speech without interruption.

That is not a point of order. The Deputy and I know each other very well and we are entitled to pick each other up and I know that the Deputy would not want to misrepresent things.

Deputy O'Sullivan on the Vote on Account.

He would not deliberately misstate facts, but he is mistaken.

It is to be seen whether the proofs available suggest that I am mistaken. There is no doubt that it was a positive promise to the people.

That was only a statement by somebody.

Yes, and it was only published by the Government organ. Among the statements made last week by the Minister for Transport and Power was that we were developing a low cost economy in agriculture. Surely anybody engaged in agriculture must realise the impact of increased rates on agricultural production as well as the fact that higher transport costs bear heavily on primary production costs and that every time taxation is increased naturally it is a burden on producers, whether they are in agriculture or industry? The solution, the Minister for Transport and Power says, is that there are blueprints and plans. Of course, the country has been listening to proposals for plans and the drafting of blueprints for very many years. In 1963, it is a very poor solution to the problems of the moment to say yet again a Fianna Fáil Government intend to draft blueprints and formulate plans to resolve the country's difficulties.

Apart from the national expenditure being so vastly increased this year, the country at the moment is concerned with the increase in rates. We have now reached a figure of £22,800,000 in rates having been extracted from the people last year and every member of a local authority, no matter on which side of the House he sits, is more than ever concerned with the increased costs of local administration. They find that no matter how closely they examine these estimates, they are of a mandatory character and that they can do little or nothing to effect any reduction. As time has gone by, we in the Oireachtas have passed legislation designed to carry out certain works. On too many occasions we have charged local rates with a substantial part of the cost of the administration of particular schemes. This carrot has been dangled before the eyes of members of local authorities and year in and year out, this Department or that Department are prepared to give a grant for this or that scheme on condition that the county will bear the cost to a certain extent.

The increase there corresponds to the increase at the national level and this year the increases presented to our ratepaying community are of an appalling nature. They have surpassed by many millions the figures at which the Taoiseach stated they had gone beyond the capacity of our people to meet. Last week, the Taoiseach referred here to the situation. He seemed to be quite complacent about it. He gave us the figures showing the proportion borne in other countries as compared with this country in regard to both local and national expenditure. He pointed out that here we spent 23 per cent; in Britain, in the same year, it was 26 per cent; in Belgium, it was 24½ per cent; in Italy, it was 29 per cent; in the Netherlands, 29 per cent; in France, 34 per cent; and in Germany, 34 per cent.

I ask the Minister for Justice, who occupies the Front Bench at the moment, and the Taoiseach, can the economy of this country be compared in any way with the economy of any of these countries? Is there any single one of them which exports the proportion of their population that we are exporting of ours? Is there any single one of them carrying the burden we carry of rearing and educating our boys and girls up to an age at which they have to get out of the country to find a livelihood? Is there any one of them maintaining the same number of old people? Is there any one of them in the position that, when their young people are reared, they have to be told there are no opportunities for them to work in their own country? Are their young people not provided with ample opportunities of earning a living in their own countries, thereby raising the level of prosperity?

That is not our position. We are not raising the level of prosperity by providing employment for our young people at home, the prosperity that would make it possible for us to make further headway in relation to social welfare benefits, education and the other amenities that should be provided. We continue to export the normal growth in our population. It is in that situation that we are compared by the Taoiseach with such highly developed countries as France, Germany, the Netherlands, and so on. It is in that situation that the Taoiseach claims the people here can afford the same level of national and local taxation as can the people in full employment in these other countries. The comparison is a ridiculous one. It is the Taoiseach's opinion now, in contradiction of the view he expressed earlier, that the people are in a position now to carry this extra burden presented to them in the Book of Estimates and also by every local authority in the country.

Last year, when the rates were being struck, there was formidable agitation by the farmers. Every council office in the country was besieged by deputations representing thousands of farmer ratepayers and, as a result of these demonstrations, the Government gave certain relief last year to the agricultural community.

Mention the amount —£2 million.

Yes, £2 million. Would the Minister mention another amount? Would he say whether the increase in this year in the country as a whole will be lesser or greater than that figure? The Minister may not like to deal with the fact that the relief given last year will be cancelled by the increases this year. He may doubt that, but the increase in County Cork this year is 3/11 in the £.

Is the Deputy a member?

I am, and we have in the Chair the Deputy who described the Minister's city last week as a rotten city: Deputy Corry is the Chairman and, despite all his genius, there will be an increase of 3/11 in the rates this year. The relief given last year was given to the farmers. It was not given to the shopkeepers or to any other sections of the community. The farmers got relief because of the effective demonstrations they made; that brought home to the powers-that-be the fact that it was necessary to give some relief at Budget time to the farmers. Remember, Minister, that since last year——

The Deputy should address the Chair. He should not address the Minister across the floor.

I am sorry. The incomes of many farmers have been substantially reduced. There is a reduction in the price of wheat. The cost of producing milk has increased. Costs in many other agricultural activities have also increased. There is a more rigid administration in relation to wheat growing; that results in a reduction in price because the Minister for Agriculture is, of course, in the pockets of the millers. There is a more rigid application of the grading system in relation to bacon. That means that the price is not as good now as it was 12 months ago. The farming community were regarded as being in such a plight 12 months ago as to warrant a budgetary allocation of £2 million. This year, they will have to meet the increased rates without any relief. Farmers' incomes are lower today than they were 12 months ago.

Those engaged in other industries and in business generally in the cities and towns got no relief. They, too, have their problems. We have today the development of the multiple store. We see the dire effects that is having on many of our family businesses all over the country. The cost of living affects these people as seriously as it affects anybody else. They have been hit by emigration. They are being hit very hard now by the foreign invasion interested in developing the multiple store. These people have millions behind them and they are developing these stores to the detriment of hundreds who reared and educated families on relatively miserable incomes. These enjoy no limitation in hours. They are not cushioned against ill-health or anything else. They will be badly affected by the increase in rates.

Those of us in local authorities are frequently approached by them; we have considerable sympathy with them but there is nothing we can do personally to help them to any great extent. We have arranged for instalment payments to be taken. These people are not suppliants. They are proud people and it is very hard on them to have to demean themselves approaching members of local authorities, but the position is that they just cannot meet the bill presented to them. Their position will be unenviable when they are presented with the coming financial year's rates demand.

Many sections of the community failed, unlike the farmers, to get any relief, but the dairy farmers failed to get any increase in their incomes. When the Minister for Local Government was recently incapacitated, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy O'Malley, came down to perform the opening ceremony in regard to the new bridge at Youghal. Some hundreds attended. In his speech, the Parliamentary Secretary—this was the part that impressed those who heard him most and made the greatest impact—candidly admitted that the Government were fully conscious of the fact that the farmers' incomes had not risen in line with the incomes of other sectors of the community and he added that, within a week or two, there would be a dramatic announcement in that regard. Everybody there who was interested in agriculture went home feeling confident that at long last the Government had become alive to the situation and that something would be done to bring about equality in agricultural incomes vis-à-vis industrial incomes.

It was only when we received in our morning post and heard over the radio the terms of the White Paper Closing the Gap that we realised what was in the Parliamentary Secretary's mind. Then it was brought home to us that far from there being a proposal to bring up the level of the agricultural community to that of the industrial worker, it was the Government's decision to peg the earnings of the industrial worker so that they would not advance too far ahead of the incomes upon which the farming community had to depend. Therefore, we have this statement in the House by the Taoiseach at column 731, Vol. 200, of the Official Report of the 6th March, 1963:—

"...creamery milk production is still the most profitable farming operation carried on in this country..."

I wonder where he got that information. I assume it was from his Minister for Agriculture who is, or should be if he is not, the mouthpiece in the Cabinet of the agriculturists. He went on to say regarding that industry:—

"...all elements of risk have, so far as is humanly possible, been eliminated."

Anybody engaged in the production of milk at the moment is only too fully conscious of all the risks and difficulties he must encounter. Granted the State is expending many millions of pounds on the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. That scheme was delayed overlong. It should have been started earlier, but, having got the co-operation of the agricultural community, the State has gone a long way towards eliminating bovine tuberculosis.

It must be remembered, however, that when the scheme comes to be applied in the dairying counties, the first animals to go down under these tests are the higher yielding cattle, the cattle producing most milk. We are now seeing the elimination of thousands of these cattle on our holdings throughout Munster in these months. These cattle are being replaced by in-calf heifers of such an age that the milk they produce will be considerably less than that of the cattle that are being eliminated under the bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme. It has been standard practice for farmers in the dairying areas each year to allow for the exclusion of some percentage of aged cattle and for their replacement by young in-calf heifers but it is, if I may so describe them, in the middle income group that there are the high producers which make it possible for the farmer to dispose of the older cattle and replace them with in-calf heifers. Despite all the agricultural assistance that has been provided to enable them to replace their herds, they will experience this year, next year and the year after a very considerable reduction in their incomes in consequence of their co-operation with the Government in the elimination of bovine tuberculosis. It is in these circumstances that the Taoiseach states that it is the most profitable farming operation carried on in the country.

He goes on to refer to extravagant statements by so-called representatives of milk producers, who are saying they are getting darned little thanks for the contribution they are making. If the Government were familiar with the personnel of many of these organisations, they would realise that very prominent in the organisations are strong supporters of the Government. I have no doubt that they would be fully conscious of any difficulties the Government would be in and would not be in any way a party to creating fresh difficulties or embarrassments for the Government in relation to their demands.

The Taoiseach was warming up to his subject and went on to make a statement that has had the most acute consequences down the country when he referred to a "power struggle between two farmers' organisations, and an agitation which is unwise in its concept and cannot possibly succeed." The Taoiseach, I am sure, has never said there should be in this country one vast trade union, that we should not have a multiplicity of trade unions. If the workers believe there is a particular union which is better able to look after their interests than another, then they are entitled to join that union and to maintain it; then side by side working with that is a separate union looking after a different class of workers. It is the same in relation to farm workers. We have the National Farmers Association covering the country as a whole and we also have the Irish Creamery Suppliers Association which caters specifically for a section of the agricultural community. The Taoiseach says their present demands have their origin in a power struggle between these rival organisations. Those who were approached over the last week or two by representatives of these organisations were not conscious of their approach being made on the basis of any kind of warfare between rivals. We were conscious of their approaching us as representatives of organisations who were conscious of their obligations to their members. They saw other sections of the community getting increases. They saw their own costs increasing and that they were not getting increases in income commensurate with the demands made on them.

Some say that this problem is an insurmountable one for the Government. The Taoiseach went on to say it could cost a shilling in the lb. of butter to the consumer. That is an entirely outrageous estimate of the cost to the consumer. Last week, I asked the Minister for Agriculture if he was a party to that estimate. He said he was not, that I should address the question to the Taoiseach. The Minister for Agriculture could not stand over that estimate of the increase in the cost of butter but it will be remembered that the people who now pay lip service to the consumer in regard to the price of butter were responsible for increasing it by 5d. a lb. at a time when no increase was given to the producer and the producer had to pay that price in company with everybody else. The Taoiseach now says we have brought the price of butter up so high that it would be impossible, without considerable resistance from the consumer, to come to the aid of the farming community.

Some of us pointed out—and it is on the records of this House—that the removal of the subsidy on butter would have this consequence, that it would raise the cost of butter to the consumer to the point where it would be very difficult to allow any benefit in regard to that price to the producer in later years. Now the Taoiseach falls back on this case, that he has absorbed for the benefit of his own Exchequer all the advantages of having saved the Exchequer from the responsibility of bearing the subsidy of 5d. a lb. to the Irish consumer of creamery butter.

However, it is very hard to blame the Taoiseach, who would not be closely conversant or in any way conversant with the problems of the people in the dairying area, when the Minister for Agriculture comes down to Cork and there announces to farmers' representatives that under no circumstances will he listen to any case being made for an increase in the price of milk. Today, in rather like vein, the Minister for Education referred to the same thing in the course of his reply to a Parliamentary Question. He gave the quotation "My mind is made up and so please don't confuse me with facts." This seems to be the argument of the Minister for Agriculture at the moment. He has his mind made up and does not want any spokesman of the farmers or anybody else to confuse him.

He was referring to the Deputy who raised the question.

I know he was——

This is just another misquotation.

It is not; it is what the Minister for Education said.

Who reminded him?

All I am saying is that it is quite possible that the man was the Minister for Agriculture, because that summarises what he said in Cork.

It could have been you.

No. I like to substantiate any statement with facts. The Minister for Agriculture, when he got to addressing the farmers in Cork, quoted the average price paid for milk in this country and what did he do? He took the price paid for liquid milk, including the cost of delivery——

He is looking for a fact. They are very scarce over there.

The facts are not scarce. They are there in abundance on this side of the House. We have plenty to keep us going. But to return to the point, I was discussing the claim of the Minister for Agriculture that there was a certain average price paid for milk. He took the price for milk paid at the creamery door and took the price paid by the consumer of milk after 4½d. a gallon distribution costs were taken into account. He added the two and divided by two and said that that was the average price. You might as well say that the Taoiseach has £3,000 and a Deputy has £1,000 so that the average paid to members of this House is £2,000. It would be just as fair a figure to give as the figure given by the Minister for Agriculture.

Then he said: "There is a solution to all your problems." What did he suggest? One would have to go back to some speech made by Deputy Dillon some 10 or 15 years ago, because the advice given by him to the farmers in Cork was: "Grow more grass, better grass; extend your advisory services if you can under the Parish Plan which I killed: if you had it now, you would be a lot better off. You would be able to grapple with your difficulties now if you had a far better policy for pasture; and if we had a better policy for the implementation of the Parish Plan and plenty of advisers, you would have no difficulty whatever in the dairying industry."

These were the views of the man who when he had the opportunity in 1947 gave as the only solution for the troubles of the agricultural industry: "I will line your fields with guards and inspectors and will tell you what to do, when to do it and how to do it." In consequence of that, he could not be put back into that Ministry when Fianna Fáil returned to power, and they had two other occupants of the Ministry before unfortunately they reverted to the present Minister again.

We hope and trust that the Taoiseach and Minister for External Affairs in their sojourn in London next week will succeed in bringing back to the country some benefits by way of improved markets, but we have the circumstances in which they could not take the present Minister for Agriculture with them, in which he was completely left out of all the talks in relation to the Common Market, and in the discussion of the future of Irish agriculture he was never even mentioned. It is in those pitiable circumstances that the agricultural community are represented in such a manner in this Government, and this is one of the matters of greatest concern to the agricultural industry.

Last week, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance spoke in this debate, and we must say that for this particular contribution he is to be complimented on its entertainment value alone, because he was given a job to do and he did it. He came in without a note in the world and drew figures out of the air. I thought that the pantomime season had finished on Shrove Tuesday night, but I enjoyed listening to the show put on by him. It was a magnificent performance, for no magician in a pantomime ever drew rabbits out of a hat with the same facility as that with which he reached out and drew figures out of the air, not one of which could be substantiated by any proof or reference to any fact.

In the course of his statement, he decided to deal with the agricultural industry, and as I am on that subject I think it is worth while to refer to a statement by the Parliamentary Secretary last week. He referred to the fact that we had greatly increased livestock numbers at the present moment as indicating the success of his Party's policy. Of course there was no reference to the price of wheat, or to the fact that when the Party now in office were in opposition, there was a bye-election in Kilkenny at which they introduced Deputy Corry as potential Minister for Agriculture and at which there was a guarantee of 84/- per barrel for wheat. That was the promise made to the Kilkenny farmers. The people of Kilkenny have reacted pretty well to their being sold down the drain in that respect by the results at subsequent elections, though at the particular time it paid some dividends. We did not have any claim so far by any member supporting the Government in this debate of things being satisfactory in relation to the growing of grain. Certainly they are very carefully avoiding the subject of wheat.

The Parliamentary Secretary, representing part of a dairying county in Munster, said that livestock figures were good, that they were up. He said that cattle, sheep and pigs had increased. Today we have the official figures emanating from the Government and indicating that there will be an increase in cattle but unfortunately a reduction in in-calf heifers, which would indicate a trend that is not so happy. The figures record that there has been this increase in the number of adult cattle but that heifers in calf dropped by 800; and the total number of sheep was down by 42,600 or 1.3 per cent, and pigs decreased by 65,900 or 6.1 per cent, while the number of sows was down by 5,100 or 4.6 per cent. Surely the fact that the number of sows is down is an indication that the number of pigs in a very short time will be reduced in consequence. It is in order to controvert the claims made by the Parliamentary Secretary last week that there were registered increases in each of those livestock categories that I thought it well to put that on record.

Before I leave the subject of agriculture, I want to say that there are very disturbing developments in recent years which are creating an unenviable position for the farmer's son with a bit of capital. It is absolutely impossible for him even to compete with some of the people who are today snapping up the land to a very great extent throughout the country. I refer to the number of cheque-book evictions that are being carried out. There is no other way to describe them. It is extremely hard on the young man who slaves away with very little pocket money for perhaps 20 years, having left the national school so that his parents can put aside money for him to purchase a holding and set him up, to find that when he comes into the open market, he has to face Germans, French, Dutch and some of our city industrialists with their cheque-books who in many instances close up the homes, take away employment and concentrate their production on one huge newly-created ranch.

It is with these remarks that I conclude what I have to say with regard to the situation in the agricultural sector.

I want to say in relation to housing that we have had some outrageous statements made that in very many instances the housing problem has been resolved in the country. That is not the situation as we know it to be. There are houses in rural towns and in fact there are houses still in the rural parts, in which the working classes are existing, which are a disgrace to this country. Their families are in great danger of suffering serious damage to their health. I know a number of them. Our experience is that it takes from five to seven years to erect a cottage in rural Ireland today, from the time a tenant is recognised.

I do not wish to go into much detail on this because I prefer to reserve it for the Estimate for the Department of Local Government. The Government's housing record does not stand up to the examination one would expect when one considers their claims regarding advances in that department. We know many delays that are outrageous. It will be remembered, having reference to the Statistical Abstract, that in 1954 the houses built with State aid numbered 11,179; in 1955, 10,490; in 1956, 9,837; in 1957, 10,696; in 1958, the number dropped to 7,488. In 1959, it dropped to 4,894, and in 1960, there was a slight increase to 5,992. In 1961, the number was 5,978—very far back from the figure of 10,696 houses built in 1957, very far back indeed. That is a very poor record.

It is also as well to put this again on record, in view of the history of the racket created regarding the building of houses by the Dublin Corporation. At one stage in 1955, a sum of £4,622,195 was spent on the building of houses in Dublin city and in 1959 that figure dropped to £1,847,956. On the other hand, we know and see that there is considerable prestige building going on in Dublin, in Cork and elsewhere. It would be far better if these buildings were erected after we had housed our own people, after we had catered for the dire needs of the hundreds and hundreds of families still awaiting civilised housing. It would be far better if our efforts were directed towards resolving that difficulty before embarking on any prestige building.

It has been suggested that when we are critical of the figure on the Book of Estimates, there is an obligation on the Opposition to suggest economies that the Government should implement. There was a leading article in the Irish Independent on Friday, March 8th, with this conclusion, which I regard as quite sensible:

It is not the taxpayers' business, not the newspapers' business, nor even the business of the Opposition to frame the Government's budget. It is the right of us all to protest that the bill is unreasonable, that too much of it is being served on too few, and that there is no sign of the Government being ready to give adequate help to those most in need.

Nevertheless, from the Government side, it has been asserted by those who have spoken so far that there is an obligation on the members of the Opposition to suggest economy.

It will be remembered that when the present Minister for Finance introduced his first Budget in 1957, he was quite emphatic about his ability and that of his Government to effect economies in relation to the Civil Service. An inkling was given in the course of that Budget statement—this was not an after-banquet speech; this was a carefully prepared Budget statement—of the frame of mind of the Government, of their intentions and of what they considered they were capable of performing in the course of that year. I quote now from column 939 of the Official Report of 8th May, 1957:

In the short time available since the Government took office, it would obviously have been impossible to examine critically and justly all the objects of expenditure of the taxpayers' money. The searching out of wasteful or unnecessary expenditure and its elimination will require keen and continuous attention.

There we have the assertion in respect of the figure of State expenditure in that year, that, in the opinion of the Government at that time, as expressed by the Minister for Finance, there was wasteful and unnecessary expenditure. From that strong, single-Party Government, then full of beans, there was the assurance of its leader that they were going to get cracking. He went on:

But the urgency and difficulty of our budgetry problem this year required that a start should be made at once.

—at once. There was no question at all of any future policy as is now proposed by the Taoiseach regarding sales tax, turnover tax, or what have you. This was something to be performed at once under the direction of the Minister for Finance, being responsible for State personnel. He went on:

I shall mention a number of specific economies which have already been decided upon but which represent merely an instalment of what the Government hope in time to achieve.

What do we find? We find 700 more civil servants this year—500 permanent and 200 temporary.

That was not alone received well by this House but it evoked leading articles in all of our daily newspapers commending the Government on their assiduity in seeing that wasteful and uneconomic expenditure would be wiped out and that we would have this curtailment in the numbers of State personnel. Who were his colleagues who were most enthusiastic in the carrying out of that programme? We find the present Minister for Justice saying on 14th May, having had a week to digest the Budget statement, as reported at column 1196 of the Official Report:

I am very pleased the Minister made clear that these economies which he hopes to achieve in public administration will be in the direction of reducing the number of officials and not in the direction of reducing the status of those officials who remain. The discontented official is of no use. I hope that, when he does achieve the substantial economies he has in mind, it will be in overall numbers and not in any reduction in the positions or the prospects of the civil servants who remain.

—"or the prospects of the civil servants who remain". Shadows of Closing the Gap.

I am glad he has made that point clear and, if that is adhered to, I think that a tremendous contribution can be made by the civil servants and officials generally, if the right incentives are given to them.

—"if the right incentives are given to them".

Not alone had the Minister for Finance the commendation of the national Press and the House but one of his colleagues in the Government felt it was essential to add his voice in impressing on the Minister the advantages which would accrue to the country and to the administration of the country by the elimination of what was described then as "wasteful and unnecessary expenditure". Now we see the outcome in the way of increased numbers of State personnel to cater for fewer people because, at the time that Budget was introduced, 250,000 had not gone: they went since. Despite that, we now have this bill of £200 million presented to us to cater for those who are left, those who did not go.

When in Opposition, the present Government were not averse from suggesting economies. I am sure there were some courageous Deputies among them, sitting over here on these benches, who quite clearly, on a close examination of the situation in the country, felt that if only they had the chance, they could effect very many economies. What economies did they suggest? Among the new frontiersmen who are now in the Government we had Deputy O'Malley. He had no knowledge then that he would be Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance and would be given an opportunity of ensuring that the ideas he had for economising were put into effect. On 14th May also, on the same day as the Minister for Justice was so quick with his suggestions, Deputy O'Malley had some notable suggestions to make. In column 1214 of the Official Report for 14th May, 1957, he says:

The only solution of a constructive nature, as far as I can see, is that the Government should give the example.

We had lectures from the Minister for Transport and Power as to what should be done but he did not give any example of what should be done. On the other hand, Deputy O'Malley says that the Government should set the example. We are told now that the Government closely examined the Book of Estimates, that they burned the midnight oil, could not achieve anything better than what they have achieved. I should like to ask if the Government are in a position to claim any competency in presenting to the House anything like a reasonable estimate of their expenditure for the coming year. Since this Book of Estimates was introduced, each one of us got last weekend a sheaf of Supplementary Estimates which I venture to claim is unprecedented since the foundation of the State.

At the time when we are presented with the present record estimate for expenditure, we have the example of the Government's failure, the Government's drastic failure, to estimate correctly their expenditure for last year. Not a Minister has been changed in that Government and surely the same team as failed so drastically last year cannot be expected to estimate correctly for the coming financial year?

That was what Deputy O'Malley was suggesting.

I am coming to that. Do not steal my thunder.

What year was that?

Would you not come up to date?

Having introduced himself by saying that the only solution of a constructive nature was that the Government should give the example, Deputy O'Malley went on to say:

How could the Government do that? In my humble opinion, the Government should give the example at the top. Take one example—the Department of Justice. Does everybody not know that the Department of Justice, instead of costing the taxpayers some £100,000 could be equally competently carried on by the Minister for Defence?

That is not a bad suggestion for economy for the Government. It is not a bad suggestion that it is not necessary to have two Ministers administering these Departments. It was Deputy O'Malley's opinion that one Minister could do it.

Now Fianna Fáil have a Parliamentary Secretary as well.

That was Deputy O'Malley's opinion, that one of the best economies that could be suggested was that one Minister should administer the Departments of Justice and of Defence. I am sure that suggestion was repeated at many a chapel gate meeting in East Limerick. That suggestion was made by an individual who is now one of the junior Ministers of the Government.

He is not a bit junior, He is now running the Department of Local Government as well.

It will be appreciated that, despite all the talk of scanning the expenditure and of the Government's assiduity in effecting economy we are somewhat sceptical of some of the Estimates when one remembers that we have in charge a Minister for Finance who once said that the Health Act would not cost any more than 2s. in the £ on the rates. We all know that that figure has been surpassed time and time again. We hope there is no error in these Estimates comparable with the bloomer made by that particular individual in estimating the cost of the health services.

It was indicated to the people at Budget time last year that what had been given in relation to relief of rates and local taxation was an instalment of the good things to come. It was indicated to the taxpayers that there would be spectacular reliefs when the Government had fully examined the whole tax structure. Now indications are being given to the people to expect a harsh Budget, although it is possible that that old political trick is being played so that, when the Budget is known, they will be inclined to say: "It is not so bad after all; it is not as bad as we thought." If that is not the case, the country is now facing charges in relation to rates far exceeding anything we have known in the past.

We have exported a quarter of a million people; we have an adverse balance of trade of £100 million; and we have a 25 points increase in the cost of living since the Government came into office. Many of our workers are being told that they may not look for increases, while many other people have been exempted from these restrictions. In the face of all this, the Government have been forced to admit that they themselves cannot succeed in effecting the economies which they promised. Each of those Estimates which have now been put before us is a confession of the complete failure of the Government to make the economies which they said they would make. It is a confession of the failure of the Government's economic policy in years gone by when they forced up the cost of living by the abolition of the food subsidies.

Due to that policy, the State was forced to look after its own personnel and employers outside were forced to do the same. In saying these things, we are merely repeating the views expressed to us on every occasion on which we have met the people down the country since this Book of Estimates was presented by the Minister for Finance.

The Estimates for 1963-64 will be before this House for the next three or four months. In this Book of Estimates every penny which it is proposed to spend is set down meticulously and in the fullest possible detail. Before the financial business on which we are about to embark concludes every Deputy will have been given an opportunity to discuss the Estimates in the greatest possible detail and the rules of order will permit the fullest possible discussion of every aspect of Government policy.

I have no doubt there will be plenty of criticism of the manner in which the different Ministers of the Government are conducting their Departments. There will be ample opportunity in the course of that criticism for Deputies to indicate where they think savings can be effected, what expenditures they think should be postponed or not proceeded with at all. I want to suggest that in the months ahead, during all this detailed discussion, during this meticulous examination by the House of the Book of Estimates, we will get very few, if any, suggestions as to where one single penny can be saved. In so far as we shall get any demands from the Opposition, they will almost certainly be that more money should be spent under this or that heading or we will have suggestions that certain projects which have not yet been undertaken should, in their opinion, be proceeded with, but I do not think we will get one concrete suggestion, certainly from the Opposition benches, as to one specific reduction which should be effected.

What about Deputy O'Malley's suggestion? Does that not appeal to the Minister?

No, because when he made it he had clearly in his mind the inert and inept conduct of the Department of Justice by a Coalition Minister and it was not until a Fianna Fáil Minister took over that it was realised what could be done in that Department.

Is Deputy O'Malley satisfied now?

He is completely and entirely satisfied now.

Has he since been conditioned?

I will bring him in to give evidence of it.

Oh, do not. We had him last week.

It is absolutely no good, and it does not cut any ice here, to make a general type of demand for a reduction in the overall figure of the Book of Estimates. The Labour Party at least have taken what appears to me to be a sensible stand in this debate and if the Fine Gael Party want to indicate that the overall bill is too great then the corollary should be that they would proceed to indicate specifically where savings could be effected. Deputy O'Sullivan says it is not the Opposition's job to frame the Budget. I agree that the overall task of fiscal policy is one for the Government. The decision on the final amount of expenditure and the manner in which the money is to be raised to meet it is clearly a matter for the Government, but if the Opposition attack the overall size of the Book of Estimates it is reasonable for me to ask them to indicate where specifically they would wish the axe to fall. If they can put forward a single concrete suggestion I can assure them it will be carefully examined and optimistically examined by the Government and if it is one which appears to be sensible and possible the Government will have no hesitation in accepting it because it emanates from the Opposition benches.

He is in search of a policy.

No, no. I am talking of specific items. I maintain that financial policy is for the Government. We accept that obligation, but if there is one single suggestion from the Opposition benches as to how a saving can be effected, we will examine it honestly, and if it commends itself to us we will not hesitate to accept it simply because it comes from the Opposition benches. I think I am entitled to ask Fine Gael if they wish to say that the amount provided for the promotion of agricultural efficiency should be reduced. Do they want the record amount of £36,600,000 which is made available for increasing agricultural efficiency in one manner or another to be reduced and, if so, in what respect? Do they want the £2 million provided for the subsidisation of our bacon exports, or the £4,600,000 for subsidising our exports of dairy products cut down and if so would they indicate by how much? Do they want the £40 million provided for Social Welfare reduced and, if so, precisely where?

Have we stopped beating our wives?

Not at all. I am merely asking that if the Opposition consider the overall size of the amount provided in the Book of Estimates to be too great they should state specifically where they would wish to have it reduced.

The Minister is misreading the position. The Minister's Party said that the level of taxation had increased to too high a level by 1957 and that it was not to increase any further.

The House is now concerned with the Estimates for 1963-64 and the general public expect us to deal with them and not to be harking back to 1927, 1937, 1947 or 1957. They expect Fine Gael to devote their energies to seeing whether any reductions can be effected in this Book of Estimates. That is my challenge to Fine Gael. It is easy to suggest in a nebulous, airy-fairy kind of way that the Government are extravagant.

Deputy O'Malley went back to 1908.

They cannot expect people to take them seriously unless they suggest where reductions should be made. The Government have to run this country and in doing so face very real problems—problems which cannot be solved in any airy-fairy kind of way. They involve questions that must be answered in terms of pounds, shillings and pence. The sort of questions we have to ask ourselves are: will we or will we not proceed with this scheme? Can we afford it at present? What will the final cost be when it is in operation? Will that cost be justified? Could the same result be achieved in any other way?

This is Children's Hour.

These are the questions we have to ask ourselves in framing the Estimates.

Everyone knows that.

They are real, definite questions and they cannot be wished away or waved away. On an occasion like this, the Government are faced with a multitude of demands from different quarters. All these demands appear to be reasonable and to give beneficial results but they must all be examined in the light of our situation. All the demands must be sifted and assessed and the tests which I have enumerated applied to them.

Every single heading in this Book of Estimates has been examined and re-examined thoroughly and meticulously by the Government. Every proposal put forward was critically considered. That is the way we approached the Book of Estimates. The final form which it has taken is the result of detailed and thorough examination. I know as well as anyone else that there are many desirable and beneficial ways in which Government expenditure could be increased. I am sure every Deputy looking at any page of the Book of Estimates could suggest ways in which more money could be expended. I know also that no Deputy is as conscious of that fact as are the members of the Government.

We have had to co-operate with the Minister for Finance in keeping expenditure down to the limit envisaged in this Book of Estimates. Many projects were put forward by different Ministers which we could all see were desirable and valuable, but we had to co-operate with the Minister for Finance and agree to postpone many useful and desirable projects in order to keep down the overall cost. I think it is well that the House should realise that not only has every single penny included in the Book of Estimates been rigorously and meticulously examined, but many suggestions put forward by Ministers in their individual capacities have had to be postponed or left aside for the time being because, in the general framing of our financial policy, it was felt that we could not afford them this year.

I want to say that, if in the course of this debate or during our further examination of the Estimates, any single opportunity of achieving further reductions offers itself it will be availed of. That is our approach to this whole problem of the Estimates. We feel it is our duty to make money available for every possible, useful and beneficial purpose, while, at the same time, keeping overall expenditure at a level which the country can afford in any particular year.

This Vote on Account must be considered in the context of the Government's general economic policy. This is an expansionist Government. Progress and expansion have always been basic Fianna Fáil objectives. Our aim is to keep the economy moving forward and expanding and that underlying objective runs right through this Book of Estimates. The Vote on Account should be examined against the background of that policy. Let me give an example. In the industrial sphere, we know that free trade is coming and that we must prepare the country for conditions of free trade and the keener competition that will arise in those conditions. We must gear the economy to meet that challenge. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has established a special section in his Department to co-ordinate and assist the efforts of industry to equip itself to meet the challenge of free trade conditions. The Committee on Industrial Organisation has been engaged for some time now in a realistic, thorough, sector by sector, examination of our industrial structure.

During the coming year, no less than £4½ million will be expended on the promotion of industry. That £4½ million is typical of the sort of expenditure which is provided for in this Book of Estimates in accordance with the expansionist economic policy of the Government. We do not intend to let Irish industry lag behind or have its efficiency or its capacity to meet the competition which is inevitable seriously impaired. If we were to do that, we would be endangering the jobs of those who look to Irish industry to provide them with their livelihood.

We take the view that this £4½ million must be found and must be expended, because it is necessary, to gear Irish industry to the challenge which it will meet and, as I say, to protect the livelihoods of those engaged in it. I do not think any Deputy will quarrel with the expenditure of that £4½ million. I think most Deputies would look on it, as the Government do, as an investment. Irish industry must be re-organised and re-equipped and this must be done quickly. The basic reason for doing that is to provide the necessary security for those whose livelihoods depend on the efficiency of our industrial arm to compete in the conditions of free trade which are coming.

As well as engaging in this task of re-equipping the existing industrial structure, we are actively and aggressively continuing our campaign to attract new industry. The Minister for Industry and Commerce has introduced important new legislation to facilitate that process. As the House knows, a new system of grants and loans and other incentives has been established. The money must be found to finance this programme and, no matter what criticisms are made of the overall size of this Book of Estimates, the Government intend to see to it that that money will be made available. That typifies our whole approach to our economic problems. Any effort we can make, or anything we can do to provide more jobs for our people, either in industry or elsewhere, or to make existing jobs more secure, will be done. If money has to be found to achieve that objective, it is the job of the Government to find it and we intend to find it. That is our approach to monetary policy. We believe that the framing of our budgetary policy generally must be in accordance with our overall policy of economic expansion and progress and that principle runs right through the Book of Estimates.

Let us take education. Does any Deputy quarrel with the increased amount which is being made available for vocational education? Does anyone deny that that is an investment in the future? I know Deputy Carroll is just as well aware of the need for more vocational training and education as any member of the Government. I feel sure that is one aspect of the Book of Estimates which will meet with no criticism from him, in any event. I am sure Deputy Carroll will vote for the Government on this Vote on Account——

The Minister can meet him outside the House and discuss it.

——because I am quite certain he cannot point to any particular item of expenditure in this Book of Estimates which he would like to see cut or reduced.

I have not completed it yet.

I am optimistic about the outcome of the Deputy's examination. In preparing the Book of Estimates, the Government had two objectives. First of all, it is our objective and intention to provide the money necessary to run the essential services. As a Government, we accept that it is our responsibility to make money available to ensure that the machinery of the State can function efficiently and that the essential services are carried on. We will not have it said of us as a Government that we in any way impaired the efficiency of the machinery of the State. In so far as money has to be found for these essential services, then it is our job as a Government to make it available and we propose that it will be made available.

But, as I have said before, we believe a Budget should be much more than that. We believe a Budget should be the principal instrument of the Government's economic policy and evidence of that progressive principle is to be found, as I have said, right through the Book of Estimates. In preparing this Book of Estimates, the Government carried out a review of the national effort in all its aspects—industry, agriculture, fisheries, tourism, transport, and so on. The purpose of such review is to see where the pump can be primed, to see where money can be made available to generate further activity, to increase efficiency or to promote progress in any way. Every facet of the national economy was examined in that way and then finally, on the basis of that examination, we settled our plans. First of all, therefore, we make the money available for the essential services of the nation and then we examine under every heading of the national economy where money can advantageously be made available to secure progress and expansion.

In our particular circumstances as a nation, we must make every effort and avail of every opportunity to promote sound economic development because as a nation economically we are trying to come from behind; we are trying to catch up; and all our fiscal policies must have regard to that basic consideration and should be framed accordingly. That is this Government's approach and, as I have said before, it is no good bemoaning in a general sort of way the overall size of the national expenditure. We believe that money must be made available for economic development or we will not survive as a nation.

The only type of question which is valid in this connection is: is the expenditure advantageous; will it pay off in terms of jobs, in terms of production and in terms of efficiency? We will welcome criticism of our proposals along those lines. If any Deputy in the Opposition can say to us: "The object of this particular piece of expenditure could be better achieved in a different way", or "that particular piece of capital investment is not justified", that is the sort of criticism we welcome and that is the sort of criticism we will listen to, but let us get away from the hackneyed old cry about the extravagance of the Government and the overall size of national expenditure, without any specific indication as to where reductions, savings or improvements could be effected.

If this Vote on Account is decided on the basis of either approving or disapproving of the Government's economic policies, I submit there can be no real argument about the outcome. The fact that this Government's policies have succeeded to an extent greater than anyone believed possible when the Programme for Economic Expansion was published in 1958 cannot be denied. The evidence is overwhelming. If we were in any way inclined to doubt our own assessment of the situation, I suggest that there is abundant evidence available from outside sources as to the success of the economic policies of this Government. That evidence can be found in the reports of impartial international institutions and in various reputable financial magazines who have no axe to grind and who are merely interested in making impartial scientific assessments of the economic situation of this country. Many articles published in recent times have been laudatory in the extreme and evidence can be adduced from many impartial foreign sources as to the success of this Government's economic policies since the Programme for Economic Expansios was launched in 1958.

Every table of the Statistical Abstract, every graph of our economic progress, provides evidence of the success of those policies. The statistics for the past five years clearly show a continuing expansion of industrial and agricultural production. The national income has increased steadily and substantially. In 1957, it was £473 million; in 1961, it was £582 million. While the figure for 1962 is not available, it is almost certain that it will be well over £600 million and that the increase in recent years which has been evident in the years from 1957 to 1961 will be continued during 1962.

Are you going back to 1957? I am shocked at you. You should not go back.

Merely to show the trend. The savings available for capital formation have steadily increased. There are more people at work and emigration has never been lower. In fact, the picture now is of people coming back to this country.

To a wage-freeze.

In every aspect of Government, there has been progress and activity. The whole fishing industry is being reorganised and revitalised. We are planting more land for forestry than ever before. The whole problem of making the small farm viable is being tackled, and no matter what particular facet of Government one looks at, there is evidence of progress and expansion.

During 1962, the gross national product increased by about seven per cent or by about three or 3½ per cent in real terms. That was achieved in face of a certain amount of depression in Great Britain and in some of our export markets and, indeed, in spite of the uncertainty which prevailed during 1962 over the entire EEC situation. The increase in gross national production was five per cent in 1959, six per cent in 1960 and four per cent in 1961 and, while as I have said, the figure for 1962 is not available, it is certain that the same rate of expansion was continued during that year. We have a sound expanding economy at the moment and while there are the danger signs which have been mentioned here during the course of the debate on the White Paper——

Did the Minister say the increase in production in 1962 would be more or less the same as for 1961, 1960 and 1959?

I would hope so, yes—gross national product.

The case the Taoiseach made for the pay pause was that it was not.

The whole idea of the appeal made in the White Paper Closing the Gap was to endeavour to make sure that incomes do not outrun productivity. That is all. There is no question of a pay pause or anything else. It is just trying to bring gross national product and the pool available into line with wages and salaries.

The Minister for Finance stated the pay pause was only for a while.

Deputy MacEoin as an economist is probably a very great General.

That is an unnecessary and offensive comment to make about anybody.

I take it from the Minister because it is just his quality.

The Minister should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

He should not be allowed to make a comment such as that.

Deputy MacEoin is not so thin-skinned that he cannot take a remark in good humour.

Our aim——

There are people behind you who do not like that information.

——is to keep the economy moving forward and the Book of Estimates has been framed on that basis. We are endeavouring to keep expenditure down to the minimum, while making sure that money is made available for the degree of expansion and progress we consider necessary. We believe that in our circumstances also, as a nation, capital must be made available to the greatest possible extent for productive purposes and one of the greatest tests of the success of the economic policies of this Government is the extent to which capital has been made available for productive investment. The White Paper envisaged certain targets for capital investment. In every year since that programme was initiated, the target has been exceeded. The 1962-63 target was £44 million approximately; in fact, £66 million was expended. That is as good a test as any of the success of the Government's policy— the fact that it is able to make available from the savings of the people capital to that extent for productive investment, the highest level ever recorded in our history and that capital investment is, to a great extent, weighted in favour of productive outlets. I submit that by any standard the Government's economic policies have been successful and in order to ensure their continued success in the future this Book of Estimates has been carefully framed and put before the Dáil as a sound, practical basis for our financial programme for the coming year.

I believe the House has never heard so many words used to say so little as in the speech we have just heard. It was a collection of platitudes in which the Minister indicated the obvious with uncanny accuracy. I think his purpose was to anaesthetise the House. There was nothing specific in what he said. He repeated what I can only describe as a rosary or string of platitudes. Perhaps he learned from Deputy O'Sullivan's quotations this evening that it is extremely unwise to say anything specific on an occasion such as this. One of the most depressing activities I know is to turn back the covers of the Books of Estimates over the past three or four years. The figure now shown is £167 million; it was £148 million the previous year and £131 million the year before that. I shall not go further because the Minister does not like one to go back further, but there is a trend and pattern there showing that there is reason for a discussion of a different sort from the contribution by the Minister just now.

One of the drawbacks of the Party system is that an occasion such as this is a time for Party championship. That is a pretty reasonable thing to appreciate. It is traditional that there are charges and countercharges and the contributions from each side of the House are so coloured. Occasionally, some things said in debates of this kind are the cause of unhappiness in the future for those who indulge in them. We had an example quoted this afternoon by Deputy O'Sullivan of words used by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance a short while ago. Last year, Deputy Booth spoke after Deputy Sweetman and criticised him very severely. He said Deputy Sweetman was actually hinting that the Government might be considering a pay pause. He waved the suggestion away as a tired parent might wave away an irresponsible child but, in the event, Deputy Sweetman seems to have been right. Deputy Sweetman has a great deal of experience of Irish politics, some of them bitter——

And a financial disaster.

We can measure the financial disaster on the pattern that has continued since Deputy Sweetman left the benches in which the Minister is now sitting and we shall find that the financial disaster could occasionally be a matter of the calendar and history has a habit of repeating itself. The Minister might not be now so indiscreet that he will remember with a red face in future the kind of thing he did not say when he was making his speech today. He took all the old mottoes off the wall and hung them up in front of us.

Deputy Sweetman has long experience; Deputy Booth has not. I do not want particularly to talk about Deputy Booth except that he is a businessman and some businessmen think in this way about politics and politicians until they realise what a difficult business politics is. In future, I am sure Deputy Booth will remember that the observation he makes will quite possibly be used and repeated for him in the future.

The Taoiseach last week said that government was a very difficult thing. He was right. Businessmen do not always realise that a great many other considerations must be taken into account other than those that arise in a business concerned only with £ s. d. I was interested to note, in view of what the Taoiseach had said earlier, what the Taoiseach said about Limerick Chamber of Commerce being akin to a Fianna Fáil club. I am sure that is not true and that it was said by the Taoiseach in the exuberance of the moment. As far as I know, Limerick has always done, and still seems to be doing, rather badly as regards getting industries established in the city so, if it is a Fianna Fáil club, then even the joint organisation involved has not been very successful.

Another businessman in the Fianna Fáil benches, Deputy Gallagher, last year said he would not stand for a pay pause. How these sayings come home to roost! Apparently, however, he will not be tested about it because the Taoiseach has decided that discretion in this matter is the better part of valour and another proposal is now in hands which will probably have the same effect except that it will be somewhat fairer in its incidence. The second string to the Fianna Fáil bow was that, if they failed with the proposal for a wage pause, we should have a purchase tax. If they now suggest, as some of them have said during this debate, that a pay pause was not intended, we must assume the White Paper was just an essay in English composition.

During the debate last week there were two very contrasting speeches from the front bench of Fianna Fáil. One was made by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. It was a very forthright and human speech. We enjoyed the occasion in the House, although it was quite obvious that the Parliamentary Secretary had not done any homework whatever on the job. He was inaccurate—he spilled over on all sides. Even in the matter of housing, his details were so wrong that we must assume he was not serious at all. But he did it with a certain quality and character which he has, and an occasional gleam of honesty shot through his words.

We had a very contrasting speech the following morning from the Minister for Transport and Power. His speech was a very smooth professional public relations effort. Curiously, no matter how professional and smooth the Minister's speeches are, I always have a feeling he is looking over his shoulder. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance never looks over his shoulder—he does not care what is behind him or in front of him. For that reason, I pay more attention to what he says, because it probably comes from the heart. He actually admitted we were in a bit of a mess, but said we will struggle out of it. That rings far truer than the kind of contribution we get from the Minister for Transport and Power.

There was one very interesting interlude. When the Minister for Transport and Power was speaking, he looked across at these benches and said: "I wonder which is Wilson and which is Brown?" I do not know who the Wilson and the Brown in these benches could possibly be, but I do know the Minister pictured himself in another place. I assume he pictured himself as a Tory Minister in a Tory Government. It was a curious interlude and I thought a lot about it since.

The Minister then went on to make a curious reference to our trade with the West Indies. It interested me when he said it. He suggested that the fact there was a struggle going on for special rates for exports from this country to the West Indies was evidence of progress. I have only since learned—and the Minister did not have to learn, because I presume he knew— that this was an absolute and complete distortion of what is actually happening. The truth is that Government action is probably called for now to prevent it from being shot down. If the Minister and the Government are not aware of what is happening, they should consult the chairman of Córas Tráchtála. He will tell them what is happening. To use that as evidence of the Government's good intentions to all the children in the house is a deplorably bad piece of public relations, skilful as the Minister is in the matter of public relations.

I have already said that the Taoiseach did say in his speech that government was not an easy matter. That can be accepted by all of us. There are no black and white sides to every question; there is no truth or anti-truth in any question. There is something in between. The whole of Government is the science of compromise. We could all be helpful and we could all make the kind of suggestions the Minister for Justice asked for a moment ago, but we have not access to the kind of information the Government have for their proposals. The Government must take responsibility for these proposals. We can look only at the broad picture. We can see only the difference in the line of the graph.

I will admit that, if there were a change of Government overnight, you could not reduce this bill at this stage. The bill, after all, is made up of salaries, wages, inducements and investments of various kinds. Where you begin to cut would simply provide a barren discussion. You do not cut. If Government expenditure rises, it stays at least at that point. The only effort by a Government you can describe as being successful, is the effort to keep it as close as possible to that point in the future. We are part of this world inflation taking place. It is not an Irish product; it is world-wide. I have a certain amount of sympathy for the Minister.

I have one worry in a matter like this. It is where great towering demands are made by the big Departments that certain of the small, defenceless items would get cut and that those bodies would have to be content with a smaller proportion of the whole. I do not want to go into detail because this is a matter for the Estimates. What I have in mind are things such as the Arts Council grant. The kind of matters that made other Departments require more money would, I presume, operate in the case of the Arts Council also, but they have to be content with a lesser proportion of the whole.

The Library Council is another important thing in this country. In one way it is of the greatest importance that we should spend a great deal of money on increasing the spread of literacy. The application for grants to the local authorities is only in the region of a few thousand pounds this year. That will go nowhere towards solving what has been described as the task of the Library Council. These are cases where towering demands are made by the big Departments and the smaller matters are in danger of being brushed aside.

This inflationary situation we are in is inexorable. It is all over the world. The value of money everywhere is tending to decline. We may try to delay the trend, but we just cannot reverse it. What will happen is that those who own property will keep that property; those who own money will lose some of it; but those who work for money will find that their rewards will be more apparent than real. If world prices tend to rise, we cannot control them and to the extent that we import, we are going to have to pay more. We can exercise pressures at home to try to keep rewards stationary and so delay the process of inflation. A kind of leap-frogging may take place as did occur in one of the wage rounds here, but that gave only a short term, temporary advantage.

During the latter part of my life, all over the world this process of inflation has moved like a glacier, slowly and steadily. Any temporary advantages secured by any section of the society are slowly overtaken. All we can do is to slow up the tendency. Our failure to do that—the failure, not of the Government alone, but of all of us who are involved in public affairs—has been shown on the covers of the last three Books of Estimates where the figures went up from £131 million to £148 million and are now £167 million.

There are of course some reasons for some increases. The increase in the number of civil servants has been referred to several times. The Minister should make a case for the increase in the Civil Service establishment. The House will be glad to hear why it was necessary to have this increase. Agricultural inducements at £36 million seem a very big figure. Deputy Corish is of the opinion that these are not producing results. Of course the results in agriculture all over the world are bad. Their real use—we might as well face it—is to try to maintain the agricultural pattern we have at the moment in the hope that something will turn up at some time.

The failure of our application for EEC membership is not a help and we can only hope that matter has been delayed. General Costello's proposals for expansion in food production for domestic use, packed for the housekeeper on the home market but mostly on the export market, are a very sensible and solid stride in the right direction and it seems to have an assurance of success. It is neither a pension nor a subsidy but a real effort to create livelihoods on the land. The House will always be very glad to hear of the Sugar Company's activities in this direction.

It is, of course, vital that when the Taoiseach and the Minister for External Affairs go to London next week they should establish the most friendly, cordial and enthusiastic relations with the British Ministers, whoever they may be. We have to fall in step in most things in the two islands. Our economies dovetail. We can produce certain foodstuffs and manufacture certain goods and they can manufacture certain goods and provide work for our people. It is essential that the whole situation should be closely examined and that we should no longer have the anomaly of French butter being sold in the Six Counties when Irish butter is awaiting a market on this side of the Border.

As I say, I do not want to go into details because they are matters for the individual Estimates but there is no doubt that the Government are throwing some kind of smokescreen over the progress of housing in our cities. The essential facts are that the erection of houses in the cities of Dublin and Cork, and, I presume, Limerick, is at a rate which is very much lower than what it was five years ago. The Minister says that the delay is due to local government officials. If that is so, I cannot understand why the same delay did not take place in 1950 and 1956. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance referred to this the other night with the wildest set of figures, figures which were all inaccurate. He also said that access to the Local Loans Fund was a new development for the city of Cork, provided by Fianna Fáil. Perhaps the Minister, when he is replying, could throw some light on that matter in Deputy O'Malley's mind.

When we add to this Bill of £167 million the great increase in the cost of local government, the burden on all the citizens becomes very heavy. When Deputy O'Sullivan was referring to the increase in the rates burden, the Minister for Justice asked him: "Are you a member of the Cork County Council?" and when Deputy O'Sullivan said he was, the Minister replied: "There you are." The Minister was trying to convey to those who do not know him that the fact that Deputy O'Sullivan was a member of the Cork County Council could have made a difference in the rates that were being imposed by the county council on the ratepayers. The Minister's lack of knowledge of how local government is conducted is a really frightening phenomenon in a Front Bench Minister. He does not know, as most members of the House who are members of local authorities know, that roughly 13/- out of a 55/- rate is amenable to reduction or increase. It is the only percentage of the rate over which local government has power. The fact of the matter is that the room for manoeuvring is only in the region of pence, and pence are not going to provide any kind of result. However, that again is a matter to discuss on the Estimate, but it is frightening that the Minister for Justice should have waved his hands and said: "You are in local government and you are responsible for it." It shows a deplorable lack of knowledge of how this country is run.

However, this bill, plus the bill for local government, is a very heavy burden and the brutal fact is that there are very few economies to be made. The increased taxation is needed and will continue to be needed. The purchase tax is one way of exercising restraint and I think we had better call it by its name. The Government would be far better off it they described their proposals for a development such as that in that way. It is one way of exercising restraint if you cannot impose a pay pause and I think the Taoiseach has decided that he cannot impose a pay pause.

This is a very grim internal pattern against the equally grim external pattern of our growing trading deficit. The House should remember that the purchase tax when it is imposed will have precisely the same final effect as what Deputy Sweetman did in 1956. The only difference is that Deputy Sweetman's action was a temporary cure for a temporary disorder. His intention has been reversed by his successor and Deputy Sweetman's levy has now become a permanent feature of our taxation. I have no doubt that the purchase tax which is to be introduced by the Minister in his Budget, or after it, will be of a more permanent nature than Deputy Sweetman intended his levies to be, but its purpose will in effect be roughly the same.

It will take up moneys that might be spent on imports and to that extent, will correct our trade balance. It will take moneys out of the pockets of the wage and other earners and, to that extent, it is fair. Incomes of all kinds will have to pay it. As well as taking that money, it will also serve to solve many of our tax problems. Whatever you call this, that is its real purpose, and these will be its effects. It is another kind of wage pause and somewhat fairer, as I said, in its impact. It will improve the situation, if nothing worse happens, and the "worse" I refer to is a decline in British prosperity; that is much more than a threat nowadays.

It poses problems for us which I think are of nightmare proportions. If this source—Great Britain—of profitable occupation for our surplus people is restricted, then we are in trouble. The simple figures tell us we cannot employ that surplus here. In fact, some of our employment here arises out of emigrants' remittances. I am sure these problems are constantly in the mind of the Government, as they are in the minds of all of us, and they are pretty sobering problems. I do not think any of us in our time have inherited a bed of roses and I think the rubbishy speeches we have heard since the last election on our prosperity are something we would now prefer to forget. We can always remember that we are no worse off than others. That is fair enough comment.

I have not dealt with the details, and I do not propose to. I have tried to admit as fairly as possible that this increase is to a great extent out of the control of the Government and I agree with the Minister for Justice that the less harking back there is to the past the better. I think the present and future will provide problems enough to engage us fully, but I do reserve the right to be political to this extent —to express my gravest doubts of the competence of individual Ministers in this Administration. There are some able men in the Cabinet. There are others who are less able. That summing up is, I think, shared by many people. It may not be the Taoiseach's fault. He may not be able to get the men in his Party perhaps, but I do not think the Taoiseach is unacquainted with the fear expressed by the Duke of Wellington when he surveyed his troops: "They may not frighten the enemy but, by God, they frighten me."

One of the few relieving features so far as the country is concerned in connection with this Book of Estimates is the knowledge, perhaps that is putting it too strongly — but, at least, the firm hope that is held on reasonably solid grounds, I believe—that there will be a general election reasonably soon, which will give the people an opportunity of turning the Government out of office. Notwithstanding the advice given by the Minister for Justice and, to some extent, by my colleague, Deputy A. Barry, about not going back to the past, I think it essential we should consider the figures involved in this Book of Estimates against the background of Fianna Fáil history before they returned to power in 1957.

I think it essential that Deputies on these Opposition benches should not let Fianna Fáil get away with the kind of campaign they waged from 1952 to 1957. Neither should they allow the kind of attitude adopted here today by the Minister for Justice: "That is all water under the bridge; let us forget about the past; let us find out what reductions we can make in this Book." I have no intention of forgetting the campaign waged by the entire Fianna Fáil Party, through their principal spokesmen, leading up to the 1957 general election, as a result of which they were re-elected as the Government of this country.

Starting from 1952 onwards, there was a campaign by the Fianna Fáil Party which obviouly, since they are a political Party, must have had as its object the securing of votes to put them back in office. I have never denied that they are good political tacticians; they decided then that one of the bases of that campaign would be criticism of Government spending and the high level of the Book of Estimates in those days, but they even went further. Talking from these benches, the present Taoiseach, then occupying the position, I understand, of Deputy Leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, recorded the fact that in the previous Fianna Fáil Government of 1953, a solemn, firm decision had been taken that taxation would not be raised, and that was thrown in as part of the campaign waged.

The present position is that the total of this Book of Estimates has grown to £167 million. In 1956-57, the total was £109 million. Since Fianna Fáil were re-elected, the total has increased by practically £58 million. It is essential that we should remind the Minister for Finance, and his colleague sitting behind him, that Fianna Fáil in 1957 withdrew the food subsidies, saving the Exchequer £9 million a year. State spending has increased, therefore, not merely by £58 million but also by that £9 million, giving a total increase in the region of £70 million roughly, and this increase is brought about by a Party which campaigned against the height of Government spending in the years 1952 to 1957. They held out prospects of a reduction in Government expenditure, a reduction in taxation, a reduction in the Book of Estimates.

I have here a cutting from the Irish Times of 18th January, 1952, which contains a report of a speech made by the Taoiseach to the Clonmel Chamber of Commerce. This was when Fianna Fáil were actually the Government and the Taoiseach was operating in the office of Minister for Industry and Commerce. He had this to say in regard to the question of taxation:

Increasing tax rates is, however, a course which produces other economic consequences also, which contracts the amount which the public has available to spend on other things and limits the amount of savings. Clearly, therefore, tax increases should not be considered if there is a possibility of avoiding them by reducing the cost of Government services or by eliminating or postponing the introduction of services which we can do without until we are able to afford them.

That was the line of the Fianna Fáil spokesmen starting around about that time. Into the election of 1954 went the Tánaiste, with all the colourful paraphernalia associated with an election wherever the Tánaiste is involved. Going through my library of cuttings recently, I came across some very interesting cuttings of that election, an election which the Tánaiste fought to a great extent on cartoons. I have one of them here on which I would very much like him to cast his eye now, in view of the size of the Book of Estimates which his Government are presenting to the people. This one depicts Deputy John A. Costello, Deputy Norton and Mr. Seán MacBride in the garb of bank robbers, and the heading is: "It's your money they're after". The most interesting thing to me in these cartoons is the last sentence: "For safety and security, vote Seán MacEntee and Dr. Noel Browne". The next one here is: "But now how you are paying for the parties". This time it depicts Deputy McGilligan holding a box with £128 million which is presumably a reference to the size of the Book of Estimates at that time, and it is headed: "The good-time girls". There are illustrations of the pint, increased by a penny, sixpence extra on the glass of whiskey, an increase from 2/4d to 2/5 per packet of cigarettes, an increase of fourpence per lb. on butter and of three farthings on the loaf. Again the people are exhorted to vote for honesty and honour: "Vote MacEntee and Browne". From references which Fianna Fáil speakers have made from time to time to the views held by Deputy Dr. Browne, to the policies advocated by him, I gather that Fianna Fáil do not think very highly of his point of view, though there is a certain interest, particularly for the Tánaiste, in looking back on these advertisements of his during the time of that election campaign.

However, that type of campaign which was current then: "It's your money they're after", "The good time girls" and so on, depicted here was symptomatic of the entire Fianna Fáil campaign, the picture that was being painted that State spending was too high, that the then Government were collecting too much of the people's money in taxation. The Taoiseach, Deputy Lemass, some time later, as reported in the Irish Press of 14th March, 1956—he was then in Opposition—set out to analyse what in his view a Budget should be like. Again there are some interesting observations which fell from the Taoiseach's lips at that time in regard to State spending, in regard to the amount of money being taken from the people by the then Government. In the Irish Press of 14th March, 1956, the Taoiseach set out the main features of the then position, one of which, according to him, was the rising cost of administration, requiring an ever-increasing proportion of national income.

Later on in the course of his remarks, the Taoiseach says:

Fianna Fáil has given a great deal of consideration to the possibility of introducing changes in administrative methods directed to securing a full return of work from public officials.

Then he went on:

Food subsidies must be accepted as likely to remain a permanent feature in the Estimates unless a very steep fall in the cost of living should take place and that is not very likely, to put it mildly.

That was in the year 1956. The Taoiseach was complaining about the rising cost of administration requiring so great a proportion of the national income, and he was being dogmatic about the fact that food subsidies were likely to remain a permanent feature in the Estimates, unless there was a steep fall in the cost of living. One year later, on the return of a Fianna Fáil Government, food subsidies no longer remained as a permanent feature in the Book of Estimates. They were taken out of it. There was a saving of £9 million and, in addition, as I said already, to the increase which has taken place of £58 million since 1957 in the Book of Estimates, there is an annual saving to the Exchequer over all that period of £9 million, £9 million more of the people's money that is being spent by the Fianna Fáil Government.

In speaking in the House on 8th May, 1956, the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste went to town on the question of Government extravagance and Government spending. This was before they got back to office. This was part of the campaign; this was part of the picture which Fianna Fáil wanted to present to the public and succeeded in presenting to the public in the general election which brought them back to office in 1957. At column 47 of the Official Report for that day, 8th May, 1956, the Taoiseach had this to say:

Have the Government any sense of responsibility? Have they any knowledge of the tasks that are facing them? Did it occur to them that this Budget deficit of theirs should be rectified by reducing the cost of Government?

And at column 49, he went on:

In 1953 the Fianna Fáil Government, of which I was a member, took a decision that taxation in this country had reached the danger limit. We announced that we had made up our minds on that fact and that, so far as we were concerned, there would be no increase in tax rates above the 1953 level. We made it clear that, if any Budget difficulty arose, that difficulty would be met by a reduction in expenditure and not by increasing the burdens on the taxpayer.

That was the time when the total of the Book of Estimates stood at something more than £94 million. Today under the leadership of the man who announced in 1956 that, if Budget difficulties arose, it was the decision of his Party to meet those difficulties by cutting down on expenditure rather than by increasing the burden on the taxpayers, the total of the Book of Estimates stands at more than £167 million, not very far short of £75 million more than in the year 1952-53 about which he was talking.

He went on again at column 49 to say:

Will the Government make up their minds now that Government expenditure cannot go higher than they have let it go to date? Can they give the people a promise that there is any prospect of stability now?

This was all part of the pattern that ran through the Fianna Fáil campaign in those days. The Tánaiste, then Deputy MacEntee, speaking from these benches decided that he had better add his voice to the clamour against the amount of Government spending in 1956, and at column 68 of the Official Report of the same day, he said:

That is what the working class people in our rural areas are paying for the fact that the Government has not tackled what is the basic difficulty in all this matter, the phenomenon of rising Government expenditure. Until we can manage to curb and curtail that, there will be no relief for any taxpayer in this country and the burdens upon the workers, upon the poorer sections of this community, are going to be increased.

Those were the views expressed in this House by the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste on the eve of Fianna Fáil returning to office as Government, views regarding Government expenditure, at a time when the total of the Book of Estimates was some £57 or £58 million less than the present Book of Estimates.

I think this must have been actually during the course of the general election, certainly very shortly before the general election which returned Fianna Fáil to office. As reported in the Irish Times on 18th January, 1957, under the heading of “Fianna Fáil Plan for Economic Recovery”, the Taoiseach again returned to the theme of the necessity for a reduction in expenditure. He was speaking apparently as the secretary of the Fianna Fáil Party and according to this report, he presented a 12,500 word address to the Party's Consultative Council in Dublin. At least we had not to hear that but presumably a number of members of his Party had to hear it and were expected to take it to heart. They were expected to say “Hear, hear” to the new leader of the Fianna Fáil Party, and he had this to say at that time with regard to reducing State spending:

With the Government spending one-fourth of the total national income, it would have to keep its ordinary administrative expenditure at a minimum, try to avoid expenditure which might encourage unnecessary private consumption, favour taxes on non-necessities in general use and avoid taxes which add to production costs. There should be the utmost insistence on the full and economical performance of its functions by every member of the administration, reducing officials to the lowest number consistent with this objective by installing mechanical devices wherever possible, by revising and modernising existing methods of accountancy and staff management, and by amending the present cumbersome method of dispensing with unsatisfactory civil servants.

That, I think, must have been one of the last major speeches made by the Taoiseach while in opposition. It was made virtually on the eve of Fianna Fáil becoming the Government in 1957. The Minister for Finance was then appointed to the position he holds now. Presumably he attended the Party's Consultative Council in Dublin to hear the 12,500 word address of the Taoiseach on, amongst other things, the need for reducing State spending and for reducing officials to the lowest number consistent with the economical performance of their duties. When he was appointed Minister for Finance, it became his responsibility to introduce the Budget on 8th May 1957, and he had some references to make on that occasion to what Fianna Fáil policy was to be with regard to State spending and how they were going to economise. He must have digested the Taoiseach's statement extremely well, because he followed on exactly the same lines and at column 940 of the Official Report for 8th May, 1957, in his Budget statement, he said:

The Civil Service itself has been concentrating for quite a while on organisation and methods studies. Useful results have been achieved but the total cost of administration none the less remains too high.

Later on in the same column, he says:

The existing Civil Service structure seems too elaborate for our needs.

A reply was given here to a question on 13th March, 1962. The question asks for particulars as to the number of permanent civil servants in the year 1956-57. That is the year the Taoiseach was talking about reducing the number of civil servants at a Party gathering, and the Minister for Finance was talking about reducing the number of civil servants in his Budget statement.

In the reply given to the question, we were told that in that year the permanent civil servants of this State numbered 18,460. On 6th of this month, a similar Parliamentary Question was asked and we were told that the number of permanent civil servants, estimated for in the present Book of Estimates for 1963-64, is 20,635—an increase from 1956-57 to the present time of 2,175. That has taken place under the Government who, according to the Taoiseach, and his Minister for Finance, intended to reduce the number of civil servants, who intended to cut them down, who intended to save the people's money by curtailing the numbers in the Civil Service. Is it any wonder that the Minister for Justice says to us, in effect: "Listen, do not go back to the past. For heaven's sake, leave the past alone"? Is it any wonder? I would invite the Minister for Justice at least to go back to the past to this extent: if he does not want to read what Deputies on these benches said, at least let him read what his leaders were saying at that time about the reductions which should be made, and so on.

It is interesting to note, incidentally, now that I have the Minister for Finance's Budget statement of 1957 in front of me, that he was generous enough then to say—on 8th May, 1957 —with regard to the Prize Bonds scheme, as reported at column 938 of the Official Report:

I believe that an increase in private savings may be expected; there is no doubt that it is vitally needed. The great success of the Prize Bonds issue—an enterprise on which I congratulate my predecessor—and the recent upward trend in savings are most encouraging.

At the risk of incurring the ire of the Minister for Justice a little more, I would remind him and his Party that less than a year before that statement was put on the record of this House by the Minister for Finance, we had, again, the colourful Tánaiste going on the record to give his views with regard to the Prize Bonds scheme which has stood the present Government and the finances of the State in such good stead.

At column 1934 of the Official Report of 5th December, 1956, the Tánaiste is reported as saying:

To my mind this is a very objectionable provision. I assume the Minister is committed to this project of the prize bonds. As I said on the Second Reading, it is a very unfortunate thing for the country that we have been reduced to these straits. One cannot discuss the proposal in terms of ethics. I do not think there is any harm in any person having a gamble or speculation if he so wishes.

I have never taken the line that a person ought not make a wager but I do think there is something distasteful in the Minister for Finance, as representing the Government, entering into what amounts to a wager with members of the public who will subscribe to these bonds.

Again, as reported at column 1937 of the same date, the Tánaiste said:

It is very difficult, having regard to my general attitude towards betting and games of chance and things of that sort, to formulate the precise way in which one feels this is not the sort of thing we ought to do, that it is not the sort of thing we are justified in doing. It involves in me at any rate a very strong feeling of dislike and distaste.

That was what the Tánaiste had to say when in Opposition, on 5th December, 1956—a few months before the Minister for Finance felt it incumbent upon himself to pay such glowing tributes to his predecessor because of the success of this scheme.

It did not end, of course, with the Tánaiste. He was ably seconded on that occasion by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, the then Deputy J. Brennan, who said, as reported at column 1937:

I want to endorse what Deputy MacEntee has said in regard to the distaste which this section of the Bill has caused in the minds of the people.

Later, in the same column, he is reported as saying:

The introduction of the word "gamble" into State finance does not make for confidence and, goodness knows, confidence at the present time is a minus quantity.

He goes on again, in the same column, to say:

I do not know what the people in the cities think about it but in the country we have known a system whereby, when you wanted to raise the wind for any project that was in a shaky form, you resorted to what was known as a raffle.

As reported at column 1938, he continued:

I have not heard the Minister making any statement in defence of the introduction of these prize bonds. Perhaps there is something in it that does not meet the eye but it would certainly need to have a lot if it is to counteract the feeling of distrust that has been aroused by resorting to what in the minds of the country folk is the last resort, the raffle.

Fortunately for Fianna Fáil and fortunately for the country, the Minister for Finance decided to throw overboard the views of such financial wizards as the Tánaiste and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach and he has, so far, continued the Prize Bonds scheme.

I made the suggestion to him before —I should like to take this opportunity of making it again—that I think there would be even greater interest in the Prize Bonds scheme if the Minister would alter it in such a way that draws would be held at more frequent intervals, even if the prize unit had to be reduced. I think it is a matter that would be well worth the Minister's while considering, particularly in the present circumstances when it is obviously desirable that everything that the Government can do to foster savings should be done.

One of the big weaknesses in the White Paper published by the Government recently called Closing the Gap is the fact that it did not mention anywhere the desirability of savings. Surely in a situation where there is a widening gap between imports and exports, where the Government are clearly thinking in terms of a wage freeze in order to prevent people from spending money on imports, it is desirable that encouragement should be given by the Government to savings. I think the extremely attractive Prize Bonds scheme, designed and put into operation by Deputy Sweetman when he was Minister for Finance, could be improved and made even more attractive if the draws were at more frequent intervals.

Reference was made to the fact that the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, I think it was, contributed his say to this discussion. I had not the pleasure of hearing him but I read what he said and it occurred to me that he seemed, in this wage freeze atmosphere, to resent any suggestion that the Government might set an example and that when the Government are asking for restraint from individuals, restraint in particular from employees in this country, that the Government themselves might show some restraint when it came to the spending of the people's money.

At column 756 of the Official Report of 6th March this year, the Parliamentary Secretary is recorded as saying:

Talking about setting a headline, I think it is blatantly dishonest, too, to suggest that the Government, in this Book of Estimates, should have given an example when they asked the worker and the companies to show some restraint. That goes down well, no doubt, with the uninitiated.

I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary would class himself or the company in which he found himself on this side of the House in 1956 as being the uninitiated but in that year a prominent member of the Fianna Fáil Party felt that when one discussed things such as Budgets and Books of Estimates, it was right to make the suggestion that the Government were the people who should give an example, that if there were to be savings, the Government were the people to set a headline, that so far as the ordinary people of the country were concerned in the year 1956, with the Book of Estimates standing at £109 million, and with rates at whatever level they were at, all this was too much for the people and that an example should be given from the top.

I wonder would Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party like to engage in a guessing bee and see if they could identify this speaker who is on record in the Official Report of 14th March, 1956, as having this to say:

The local authorities—the people —cannot pay any more in rates. The only solution of a constructive nature, as far as I can see, is that the Government should give the example. How could the Government do that? In my humble opinion, the Government should give the example at the top. Take one example—the Department of Justice. Does everybody not know that the Department of Justice, instead of costing the taxpayers some £100,000, could be equally competently carried on by the Minister for Defence? Everyone knows the Minister for Defence could be Minister for Justice as well and carry on both Departments.

The speaker was the present Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance. In 1956, when the Book of Estimates stood at £109 million, he felt that the Government should give an example but last week when the Book of Estimates stands at £167 million, he said, speaking about setting a headline, that restraint should be exercised.

The present Fianna Fáil Party are the Party who were re-elected to Government in 1957. The Minister for Justice does not like past history but I think it is fair that we should inquire and endeavour to ascertain why Fianna Fáil were elected in 1957. We should try to find out whether they have achieved what they were elected to do in 1957. I take it that Deputies opposite will not quarrel with me if I go for my sources of information in that research exercise to the spokesmen of the Fianna Fáil Party? I think it is fair to go to the top for a start. Let us consider why Fianna Fáil were elected in 1957.

According to the Taoiseach, speaking in this House on 14th May, 1957, at col. 1144, they were elected for the purpose of tackling the problems of unemployment and emigration. In that column, the Taoiseach said:

Deputy Costello referred to the mandate of the Government. I do not know if there is any purpose to be served by discussing what our mandate was, but I and my colleagues have no doubt in our minds that we became the Government because the people expected us to work determinedly and intelligently to bring about a situation in which employment would expand, in which the twin problems of unemployment and emigration would be vigorously tackled.

According to the Taoiseach in that report, there was no doubt in his mind or in the minds of his colleagues in the Government that they were elected for the purpose of tackling, and tackling vigorously, the twin problems of unemployment and emigration. That was 14th May, 1957. Those views were endorsed in this House by the Minister for Social Welfare, then Minister for Defence, when he said at column 1288 of 15th May, 1957:

The people who have been affected by that unemployment and resulting emigration have put their faith in Fianna Fáil to remedy that situation.

Earlier, he said at column 1283:

In my opinion and in the opinion of any fair-minded person who even now goes back and looks over the speeches made in the election campaign, it is beyond all doubt that we were put in here as a Government to take the necessary steps to remedy the situation of mass unemployment and emigration brought about by the previous Government.

So that we have there on record, first, from the Taoiseach and then, from the then Minister for Social Welfare, their positive interpretation of the election success of Fianna Fáil in 1957—that they were elected as a Government for the purpose of dealing with the problems of emigration and unemployment. Surely it is fair now to ask how they have fared in dealing with these problems, what was the success of this dynamic programme that we are always hearing about from Fianna Fáil benches?

Whenever a Fianna Fáil Minister wants to give a pep talk to Deputies sitting behind him and to get them on their feet talking about confidence in the Government, he is bound to use the word "dynamic"—the dynamic Fianna Fáil approach, the dynamic Fianna Fáil policy and all the rest of it. What was the result of all this dynamite being brought to bear on the problems of the country by Fianna Fáil Governments since 1957, when they were elected to deal with the problems of emigration and unemployment? Since then, the 1961 census figures have been published and those figures show that during the period from 1956 to 1961 more than 215,000 people emigrated from this country. That represented 15 out of every 1,000 people in the population. They were driven out of this country during those years under a Fianna Fáil Government.

They got a great start in 1956.

The figure from 1951 to 1956 was high but it was less than that for 1956 to 1961. In fact, the records, which Fianna Fáil are so fond of talking about—some of them are talking about them even today— show very much to the contrary. These are some records they should not forget, and the one I have given is an all-time high record of emigration from this country. Practically 250,000 people emigrated during that period and that would not have been so serious if we were able to find that during the same period fewer people were out of work. If a person emigrates and is not in the country, he is not put on the register as unemployed.

What was the position with regard to unemployment? As far as emigration is concerned, I doubt if the Taoiseach, the Minister for Social Welfare or even Deputy N. Lemass, though he interrupts, can be proud of that record of emigration, that ruination of hope, that despair and misery which flows alongside such emigration. As far as emigration is concerned, the record of the Fianna Fáil Government is anything but a happy one. Then what of unemployment? According to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Social Welfare, Fianna Fáil were elected to tackle two problems, emigration and unemployment. We have seen how they tackled emigration. We see how the dynamic approach there resulted in the dynamite apparently being used to blast wider harbours from which the emigrants could pour abroad.

How about their dynamic approach to the question of unemployment? According to economic statistics issued prior to the Budget of last year, the number of people engaged in agricultural employment in this country in 1956, the year Fianna Fáil describes as the Black Year, was 445,000. At least, there were 445,000 people in agricultural employment during that year. The dynamic approach was then used. Fianna Fáil got cracking and according to the economic statistics given with the Budget of last year, the number of persons employed in agriculture in 1961 had dropped to 409,000. In other words, there was a reduction in those years in the number of persons engaged in agriculture of 36,000.

What about non-agricultural employment? According to the same economic statistics published a year ago, the number of persons engaged in non-agricultural activities or employment in the year 1956, the year Fianna Fáil refer to as the Black Year, was 718,000. In 1961, the number of persons engaged in non-agricultural employment had dropped to 710,000, a further reduction of 8,000, so that those engaged in agricultural and non-agricultural activities decreased by 44,000 under the stewardship of a Party with a dynamic approach.

In their literature leading up to the last general election and during the election itself, they were talking about not only the height of Government spending, not only of the high cost of living but in a very big way of emigration and unemployment. I have here a document issued by Fianna Fáil in connection with the general election of 1957 which put them back into office. The first page carries a photograph of their then leader with the caption: "Let us go ahead again". The second page has, in great bold black letters, this legend: "All energies devoted to one aim—full employment". We find on the same page a heading: "Unemployment can be cured". Again in big, black bold headings, the next page states: "Industry must forge ahead".

Of course, it was during this time also that Fianna Fáil were discussing 100,000 new jobs. I do not want to stand on any tender toes opposite. I believe the Deputies opposite are sensitive to being told that they undertook to provide 100,000 new jobs and that the present interpretation of the speeches made in that regard by Fianna Fáil is that they were not really undertaking to give 100,000 new jobs at all, that they were only discussing proposals for 100,000 new jobs. I do not think it matters very much for a political Party who found themselves in the position Fianna Fáil were then in whether they split hairs and talk about proposals or plans or whether they give definite promises and undertakings because, quite clearly, if you go into an election talking about 100,000 new jobs and proposals for 100,000 new jobs, the unemployed man to whom you are talking, his wife and his children of voting age who, possibly, are also unemployed, are going to take that as meaning that if they cast their votes for the person coming out with that kind of talk, there will be 100,000 new jobs found.

Who would blame the unfortunate housewife, whose husband was out of work and who had possibly gone abroad to earn his living in England, for voting for Fianna Fáil in 1957, in face of this talk of full employment and 100,000 new jobs? Does any Deputy in the Fianna Fáil Party seriously think that such a housewife would sit down and analyse the small words underneath the big bold newspaper headings? When she read of Deputy Seán Lemass talking of 100,000 new jobs, when she read of Deputy Noel Lemass talking of 100,000 new jobs or of Deputy MacCarthy or anyone else talking of 100,000 new jobs, she was not thinking of plans and proposals; she was thinking of and visualising her husband in a job at decent wages and with good conditions.

Deputy O'Higgins would not risk his seat in a working-class constituency. Deputy O'Keeffe got in, which is more than Deputy O'Higgins would have done.

He did. As far as the working-class constituency is concerned, I represented them longer than Deputy Noel Lemass.

In and out.

I am proud of the fact that the constituency which I represented elected Deputy O'Keeffe, Lord Mayor of Dublin, from a working class area. I hope Deputy Lemass does not tempt me too much.

The Deputy has been tempting me. I am very reticent.

I have a big file here, including a communication from Deputy Lemass in the course of a general election apologising for being unable to call on me personally. However, we might reach on those things before we finish.

I called on Deputy O'Keeffe.

I am not going to get off the topic which I was on because Deputy Noel Lemass does not like it.

I am enjoying it thoroughly.

Does Deputy Noel Lemass or any other Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party think that any of the 90 odd thousand unemployed whose votes they were seeking at that time analysed these speeches to find out if it was a promise, an undertaking or merely a proposal? When this kind of thing was pushed in the letter box and followed up by a personal call by Fianna Fáil canvassers, is there any one of them who, when reading about full employment and 100,000 new jobs, could be blamed for believing that if there were a change of Government, if Fianna Fáil were elected he would get one of these 100,000 new jobs?

It was a simple problem in arithmetic. There were 90 odd thousand unemployed. There were 100,000 new jobs to be provided. To make it all the more certain, in case they might not be brilliant mathematicians, they had these documents telling them that there was going to be full employment, that no one was to be left unemployed.

What was the record? What happened to the 100,000 new jobs? What became of this dynamic approach? "Action can start now," we were told; "Employment is the test," and all the rest of it. According to the Economic Statistics published last year, as between 1956 and 1961, there were 42,000 fewer persons in employment in this country than in the so-called black year of 1956. So far as insurable employment is concerned, only last week a question was asked in the House the reply to which shows that as between 1956 and 1962, the average numbers in insurable employment went down by about 12,000. So that there is the overall figure, taking agricultural and non-agricultural employment into consideration, showing a drop up to 1961 of 42,000 and, up to 1962, if one deals only with insurable employment, a drop of some 12,000.

I know that Fianna Fáil cannot feel proud but I do not know whether they feel complacent with regard to the unemployment situation in the country at the moment. I am quite certain that Deputy Noel Lemass cannot feel very complacent about it.

It is improving. Think of all the people who got jobs in the last few weeks when the weather improved.

I wonder is Deputy Noel Lemass hearing of casual vacancies and sending notes to people on the unemployment register, forwarding their names for them? Would Deputy Noel Lemass like me to delve a little deeper into my library of cuttings?

It is quite all right. I dealt with senior counsel before. Mr. MacBride lost his seat for that sort of carry-on.

Does Deputy Lemass wish to deny the fact that such a circular was sent?

Does the Deputy want a loan of my book?

It would scarcely arise on the Vote on Account.

If the offer is made, I do not mind accepting it. I am sure my colleague, Deputy O'Keeffe, might be interested in browsing through it. However, let us leave the question of unemployment for the moment. I think Fianna Fáil have, indeed, proved disastrous for the unemployed.

What about housing? How has the dynamic approach worked in regard to housing? Few who were here at the time will forget the campaign carried on by Fianna Fáil between 1954 and 1957 regarding housing. Several questions were asked in the House from time to time since regarding housing and I want to refer to a reply given to a question by Deputy Jones on 29th May, 1962. It discloses that in 1956-57, 4,784 local authority houses were erected. In 1961-62 the figure had fallen to 1,238, a decrease of 3,546. This was also one of the matters which Fianna Fáil not only put in issue during the 1957 general election but put in issue in this House in years before the election. All who were here at the time will have a very clear recollection of the war that was waged by Fianna Fáil Deputies and the kind of campaign indulged in. I happen to have a publication—I do not know whether it is still issued by the Fianna Fáil Party or not—called Gléas.

I thought you were on the subscription list.

I may get to that: there is plenty of time. Perhaps, the Deputy could give us some information about it? This used be published pretty regularly and some kindhearted Fianna Fáil official used send me a complimentary copy month by month which I carefully preserved. I have not got it for a long time and I suspect it has ceased publication. If so, I am sorry because there were some interesting features in it. The particular one I shall now refer to is in the issue of June, 1956, which contains, on page 2, the news in banner headlines, "Building Trade Faces Disaster". Again, there is this theme of the black year of 1956, "Less Money For Housing; More Workers Lose Their Jobs in Slump". That was 1956. Some five or six years later, in the financial year 1961-62 we find that there were 3,546 fewer local authority houses built and that the number of people employed on local authority housing had fallen from 6,285 in 1955-56 to 2,156 in 1961-62 and this under a Party which was brazen enough to bring out a publication with headlines like this: "Building Trade Faces Disaster."

Is it not true?

What I am saying is true.

It was true in 1956.

Let us see what was true. In 1955-56 there were 4,011 local authority houses built. In 1956-57 when this publication was coming out with the headings, "More Workers Lose Jobs in Slump", there was an increase in local authority building from 4,011 to 4,784, but after five years of your dynamite that fell to 1,238, a decrease of 3,546.

When you stopped the grants.

Any Deputy is quite entitled to make the point that my picture is not complete unless you take into account also what might be regarded as the State-aided housing although not local authority housing. Private State-aided housing in 1956-57 numbered 5,647. In 1961-62 that also had fallen to 4,049, a decrease of 1,598 so that, when you take local authority and private housing aided by State grants, the total reduction is more than 5,000. There was a slight increase in the number of houses reconstructed by private persons with grants from the State. That increased from 7,745 to 8,099, but of the three columns that is the only increase shown as between 1956-57 and 1961-62.

These figures are not taken out of the air by Opposition Deputies but are figures given in reply to a Parliamentary question answered by the Minister for Local Government. In the context of the campaign waged at that time about less money for housing I have here a reply to a question given in March, 1961, by the Minister for Local Government to Deputy O'Donnell, as reported in Volume 186, column 1012 of the Dáil Debates. It shows that in 1956-57, capital expenditure on local authority housing was more than £7 million but in 1959-60, the latest year for which figures were available when the question was asked, that expenditure had dropped by more than half to something over £3 million.

Having regard to these facts and having regard to the size of this Book of Estimates, the people are quite entitled to feel that, while they are paying more to have this Government in office, they are getting considerably less in return for the money they are paying. Is there any Fianna Fáil Deputy who does not hear, as I and other Deputies on these benches hear, complaints with regard to the operation, for example, of the Health Act? Is there any Fianna Fáil Deputy who does not get approaches to try and get people housed by the local authorities? Is there any Fianna Fáil Deputy who has not got people approaching him day after day to try and secure employment? What is the Fianna Fáil answer to these approaches? Is it to be the wage freeze, the pay pause, as far as the workers are concerned, but no pause as far as Government spending is concerned?

It is the job of the Government to deal with the Budget and the Book of Estimates. It is the job of the Government to scrutinise very carefully Government expenditure. There is no reason for them to puff out their chests when they come in here and say they have examined this thoroughly. That is their job. Having regard to the fanfare of trumpets which heralded their determination to cut down Government spending, to reduce the Civil Service, and so on, in 1957, they have not got very much to stick out their chests about when they come in half a dozen years later with a Book of Estimates that has increased on the face of it by nearly £58 million and, in fact, by more than £66 million when the savings on the food subsidies are taken into account.

I am quite sure reductions can be made. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance when he was on these benches suggested one, to abolish the Ministry of Justice and amalgamate it with the Department of Defence. I do not think that would be a very happy choice. But I think there are too many Ministers, too many Government Departments and that there could be a reduction. Without in any way reflecting on either the Minister's energy or ability, because he has plenty of both, I think the Department of Transport and Power should go. As far as the ordinary public can see, the only effective work carried out is to preside over the abolition of the railway system. I do not see any reason why that Department could not be amalgamated with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. There is clearly an affinity of interests between transport and communications. A reduction could be effected. Whether it is done that way or in some other way does not matter.

We are talking, as we must talk here, about the Book of Estimates and Government policy generally. Remember that apart from the total of the Book of Estimates, apart from this vast figure of £167 million which the Government are going to take from the people in the next 12 months, the people are also concerned with ever-increasing rate demands. When you put the rates burden together with the tax burden, the sum will not be £167 million but something in the order of £200 million to be taken from the people by public bodies, whether State Departments or local authorities, in the next 12 months.

I shall conclude by saying what I said at the start. The only redeeming feature we can see in this is that it does seem to bring somewhat nearer the day on which the people will have an opportunity of turning the present Government out of office at a general election.

I have listened to Deputy O'Higgins for a considerable time. The main difference between Fianna Fáil and the Coalition Government is that we in Fianna Fáil have to take the blame as a single Party and stand fairly and squarely behind our decisions. If anything goes wrong, therefore, the electorate have no difficulty in placing the blame. Fine Gael have been the high priests in two Coalitions. Whenever, if ever, there was any good achieved, they immediately took the credit. Whenever anything went wrong, as it very often did, they attributed it to some of the other elements which composed those disastrous coalitions. Fine Gael's usual policy down through the years has been to join with anybody who might get them into power, and then gobble them up if they possibly could.

The last speaker must think the people of the country have very short memories. I would not have gone on this line but for the attitude he adopted. He seemed to think Fine Gael went out in the 1957 election with a concrete policy. The then Government were only 2½ years in office. They collapsed overnight. There was no money to pay for any services. Despite the fact that they were only 2½ years in office when they bolted they left millions behind them unpaid. These people are now trying to tell us what they could do. The only recollection I have of their achievements is when their leader had to go as far away as Canada to declare a republic because he wanted to take whatever credit was due to the other elements. The ordinary people here are fair-minded. They are intelligent enough to see through that kind of hypocrisy. They have seen to it down the years that Fine Gael, because of what happened in the past, would never become the Government of this country.

This Vote on Account has been criticised. Admittedly, there is a substantial increase. The so-called "shadow cabinet" in the Front Bench opposite have not been able to point out where anything can be cut, except the last speaker who made some reference to amalgamating two Ministerial posts. That, of course, would mean nothing in a Vote on Account the size of this. It is true that some of the increase for public servants has to pay the eighth round increase that went to the guards, the teachers and civil servants all over the country. Is it suggested that we should not pay these increases or that we should issue dud cheques to them and not provide the finance which would honour the cheques when they are presented? That certainly would not be our policy.

Whose policy is that, to issue dud cheques?

If the Deputy wants to interrupt me I can tell him that it happened during the time of the inter-Party Government.

That is nonsense and the Deputy knows it.

A conference of county managers was held in this city and they were told to freeze—that is the word which the Opposition are so fond of — everything for the time being. In my constituency housing grants were stopped overnight in the middle of winter. Those are undeniable facts despite what Deputy O'Higgins may try to quote from statistics.

I am only giving you your own figures.

The ordinary people are not fools and neither are the Cavan people because they had the experience of what happened during the Coalition Government's term of office, not only so far as housing was concerned but in regard to building new schools and raiding the Road Fund. There is no use blowing hot and cold and we may as well face facts. I am as concerned as anybody that this Vote on Account would be reduced if at all possible but we will have to be sensible in our approach. It is true that there is an increase of £3½ million for health services but surely we cannot be expected to leave disabled persons lying in their homes if there is nobody to care for them? We should like to see better accommodation and care being provided for people in hospitals and surely it is only human decency that we should try to provide for the blind, the old, the infirm and those who are not as active as they used be?

To do that you need money and it is only reasonably then there should be an increase under the heading of health. There is also an increase under the heading of agriculture. That is something which nobody would suggest we should try to curtail. Down the years we have been faced with the problem of the eradication of bovine tuberculosis and the effort to try to sell our agricultural produce on weak world markets and on the British market where they are getting the cheapest food in the world. This increase is directed towards stimulating production and is being given to the farmers under such schemes as the farm buildings scheme and the farm improvements scheme. It is designed in the long run to benefit not only the farmer but the nation as a whole. The farmers, and in particular the small farmers, never had the opportunity to benefit to the extent to which one would have liked under the eighth round of wage increases. They had no Government service which could come along and pay them a decent wage all through the year.

We must face it that it is not easy to reduce this overall figure. The fact that it has increased beyond all proportion since 1932 is a tribute to the advancement we have made, because in 1932 there was very little money and the ordinary workers had very few rights. It is to the credit of the Government that down the years they tried to provide a shorter working week and higher pay for the ordinary workers. It is to the credit of the workers that they responded magnificently so far as their contribution towards improving the wealth of the country was concerned.

Since 1957 under the leadership of the Taoiseach we have, with a single Party Government, made tremendous progress and the despondency which then existed has vanished. The people now have faith in the future. They are no longer fleeing from the country in shiploads. They are no longer being turned out of employment because now in some parts of the country there is full employment; in other parts, it is not as good as we would expect it to be, particularly along the western seaboard, but with the establishment of industries the Government have tried to be as fair as possible with the taxpayers' money and have tried to offer every incentive to industrialists to go into these areas to absorb the surplus manpower into factories.

No Government can direct a person who has the capital to go to a particular place if the conditions prevailing there are not to his liking. We hope that at least in a small way we have succeeded fairly well. A total of 190 new industries has been approved in recent years. That is a staggering figure. While we do not wish to boast we are delighted to know that not alone foreign elements but the ordinary citizens have confidence in the future of this country and are prepared to invest their money in various projects. We believe that if this trend continues, and we see no reason why it should not, that from year to year we will gradually reduce the numbers of unemployed. Twenty thousand new jobs in a few years is no small achievement.

The people are sufficiently well educated to know that you cannot accomplish any of these things without finance and that one method of getting finance is to collect it by taxation. We are now making steady progress and, with a Government that will take the blame fairly and squarely, if necessary, we have good cause to be proud of what we have accomplished in the past and we can face the future with confidence. I shall be only too delighted to hear concrete proposals as to how this can be pared down, while keeping the same number of people in employment and creating new jobs in forestry, agriculture, in the building industry and in factories. Until such time, I shall be quite content to support fully the Taoiseach and the other members of the Cabinet in trying to put this country further and further on the road towards progress, to raise the standards of living of our people in general, to provide better roads, better hospitals, better houses and more employment.

(South Tipperary): Listening to this debate, one is impressed by the number of records announced by each speaker, the highest record ever in this, that and the other thing. Deputy O'Higgins mentioned that our Book of Estimates has increased by £58 million since this Government came back into office six years ago. Adding £9 million to that in respect of food subsidies gives a figure of £77 million. Other speakers have mentioned the high rate of emigration in the past six years; most of them mentioned a figure of 300,000. Varying figures have been given for unemployment, ranging from 50,000 to 70,000. Our national debt has increased to £500 million and our balance of payments has reached, for the first time, I believe, an imbalance of £100 million. Our rates have reached an unprecented figure of about £22½ million. All these figures point to one conclusion, an increased demand by the Government on the financial resources of the people. I have some figures to demonstrate that to which I shall come later.

Deputy Dolan seemed to be in some doubt as regards some of the housing figures given to him. I shall give him the reference, which he possibly does not need, for the number of houses built by local authorities under State-aided schemes to 31st March in each of the years from 1954 to 1960. He will find these figures in page 200 of the Book of Estimates: 1954, 5,643; 1955, 5,267; 1956, 4,011; 1957, 4,784; 1958, 3,467; 1959, 1,812; 1960, 2,414. The last figure I have, 1,238, was given in reply to a Parliamentary Question. These figures show clearly, if there is any doubt in Deputy Dolan's mind, that there was a decline in State building over the past few years.

Before the Christmas recess, we received greetings from the Taoiseach and it would appear at that time that our economic situation was extremely satisfactory. Then, and before that time, we were filled up with notions of entering the Common Market. The Taoiseach put all his money on the Common Market horse. Like Moses, he was going to lead us into the Promised Land of the Common Market. That bubble has burst and he is now on a new errand. He is off to London next St. Patrick's Day or the day after to try—and I wish him success—to get a new and better agreement for us in the British market, the British market that was one time gleefully described as having gone forever. Many years ago, a member of the opposite side of this House told the people from a public platform that he thanked God we were no longer the kitchen garden of England. That remark was made at Doyle's Corner here in Dublin by a certain man who is no longer a member of this House. Some people may recall that in those days there was published a cartoon of a smallish man carrying a large whip and exclaiming: "We have whipped John Bull." It is a strange cycle of events that we now find these same people hurrying across to London to try to get as firm a toehold as they can in the British market. I wish them every success. It took a long number of years to bring home to them the wisdom of that.

Fine Gael were going to hit them in their pride and in their pocket.

(South Tipperary): Deputy Costello mentioned here the matter of our external trade. He pointed out that according to the returns, our trade with the EFTA countries was of far more use to us on a £ for £ basis than any trade we had ever established with the EEC countries. It has always seemed to me that we have been very careless in regard to this question of external trade relations. We have been trading too much with countries who bought very little from us. In particular, I would mention Russia and the Iron Curtain countries from whom we bought £1 million worth of goods in one year and to whom we sent back a few hundred pounds worth of goods. I do not mind with what countries we may trade but a Government should seek to trade on a quid pro quo basis. Over the years, we have been importing for assembly here car parts from countries on the Continent which in turn bought very little from us. The Minister for External Affairs and the Minister for Industry and Commerce should, in the interests of our trade, tell those countries that if they do not buy from us, we will not buy from them.

This Book of Estimates with its increasing figures on the morrow of a pay pause and a purchase or sales tax announced by the Government and on the morrow of rising rates seems to me to say this much: "Everybody must tighten their belts but do not ask the Government to do so." There has been no example of the Government making any effort at economy. We have an increasing number of civil servants employed, increasing Government expenditure, and at the same time, the people are asked to tighten their belts. The cost of Supply Services has risen about 50 per cent in the past seven or eight years, this year being no exception.

As a rural Deputy, I am naturally interested in the amount of money that local bodies such as county councils can secure from the central Government. I am particularly interested in that because I am conscious of the fact that as regards their income, the farmers have lagged behind the rest of the community. In reply to a question I asked in this House recently as regards domestic income over the past ten years and its distribution as a percentage of the total domestic income between the four basic categories—wages and salaries, farmers' income, industrial profits and other domestic income—I was told that the profits of farmers and their families increased from the 1953 figure of £107 million to a 1961 figure of £117 million. At the same time, salaries have increased from £218 million to £308 million. A similar position arises with regard to industrial profits and other domestic income.

Reference is sometimes made in this House to the large amount of money devoted to help for agriculture. Agriculture is in the difficult position that we have to export into a market over which we have no control, a market heavily subsidised which is, in effect, a world market, and whatever help in grants and subsidies may have been given to agriculture down through the years, the hard fact is that agricultural profits have not increased parallel with those of the rest of the community. Yet at the same time, we find that agricultural taxation, which is largely paid in the form of rates, has increased. In my own constituency where ten years ago the per capita payment into the county council—and 80 per cent of our rates would be paid by the farming community—was around £5, it is now approaching £10. The contribution from the Government at that time was roughly about £10 and that has increased now to £13, so that comparing the disbursements from central Government, as far as Tipperary South Riding is concerned, we have been losing ground. More money has been coming from the people per head of the population into the county council than from the central Government. During all that period, the income of the farming community as a whole has increased from £107 million to only £117 million. In that period, the cost of living index figure, taking 1953 as a base line of 100, has increased to 125.5. It would therefore seem that as far as my county is concerned, we are losing ground as regards disbursements from central funds. The income of the agricultural people whom I and many other Deputies represent has diminished compared with that of the rest of the community.

In fact, in my constituency, on a per capita basis of payment from each person in the county, we are the third largest in any county health authority, Waterford being the highest, West-meath the second highest, South Tipperary third and North Tipperary fourth. It would seem to me then that the rating system is inclined to break down in so far as it has become excessive on our people and has also become inequitable as between different groups.

Health and water supplies are now two big factors in expense to a rural community. I mention that the fiscal picture is inequitable and unjust because a large number of people over £50 valuation are ineligible for any health service and yet they have to pay for them. Similarly as regards water supplies, some of them will never get it. Therefore, I make the point that our rating system as part of our structure seems to be breaking down. While I understood that before the last election the Government were investigating the entire question of rates and had set up some commission to investigate it, so far I have heard nothing about it. I do not know whether such a commission ever sat or is still sitting.

When a Government collect money from the people and give out that money they have a responsibility to see that it is utilised to the best effect. I asked a question in this House about one small aspect of our economy which we subsidise, namely, Shannon Airport. I asked as regards the freightage and the landings in that Airport. I found that the air freightage imports in 1962 amounted to 492 tons and exports 406 tons from the Shannon Airport Development Authority, and that figures are not available to show whether there are any other freightage exports from that authority other than by air. I was also told in reply to another question as regards landings that in 1952 we had 5,926 landings at Shannon Airport and in the first 11 months of 1962, we had 4,677.

These questions of detail would relevantly arise on the Estimates but I do not see how they arise on the Vote on Account.

(South Tipperary): I am making the point that we are disbursing money in this Vote on Account to these concerns and I think the House should examine the trend and what the possibilities are. I merely gave the landings for 1952 and 1962. The overflying figure for 1952 was 2,556 and for the first 11 months of 1962, it was 30,856. These figures show tremendous overflying at Shannon and a declining number of landings. In view of the figures, is it not time the Government reviewed the entire position of industrial development at Shannon? The leader of the Labour Party made an excellent suggestion when he said it was a pity that more use was not made of committees of this House to examine problems of that nature. This should not be a political issue. It is an economic issue and concerns all of us. I want, as well as anybody else, Shannon Airport to be a success, but pouring out money to that concern in the face of these figures gives one to doubt the prospects for the future.

This Vote on Account provides money to help farmers. It includes a figure to meet losses on wheat. We have had the slogan "Grow More Wheat" down through the years, and last year we had a bad year for the farmers and for the country, as far as wheat was concerned. The Minister for Finance provided £2½ million to compensate the farmers for losses on wheat. As long as we give a guaranteed price, as long as we are prepared to give subventions of that nature afterwards, we have some responsibility for seeing that the wheat grown by our people is milled. This matter might, perhaps, be better discussed under the particular Vote but we have over 300 wheat-intake points and it seems amazing that the decision as to whether the wheat should be rejected or accepted is left to the millers who cannot be described as completely objective.

We have a large number of agricultural instructors in this country and we have an Agricultural Institute. There should not be any great difficulty in manning our intake points with these agricultural instructors who would decide whether that wheat would be taken by the millers and both parties could have the right of appeal.

That is a matter for the Estimates.

(South Tipperary): I mention it because I feel it would eliminate the competition among the millers about the taking in of wheat. The increasing cost of our Supply Services and the increasing number of civil servants is reflected in all Departments. I see that our old friends, the Revenue Commissioners, have been doing themselves well. I have here a cutting from the Irish Times of 19th January, which deals with outstanding income tax of £5,763,500 and goes on to mention the fact that members of the staff of the Revenue Commissioners were engaged for long periods of overtime in connection with income tax work. It states that two members were employed for 1,350 hours in all and that their overtime earnings were almost equal to their normal salaries.

This does not seem to me to have any relevance to the Vote on Account, which deals with Government spending. The Deputy is referring to the collection of taxes.

(South Tipperary): This is Government spending and the collection of money from the people and I am endeavouring to show——

The matter does not arise on the Vote on Account. The Deputy, I am sure, will get a better opportunity to discuss that point later.

(South Tipperary): I will pass over that particular point. The major causes of our financial difficulties would seem to be, first, the servicing of our national debt, something which has accrued over a large number of years and has now reached £500 million and secondly, assistance to agriculture, something which I maintain we must continue as we have no alternative because our farmers have to sell their products in markets over which we have no control. The third factor causing our financial difficulties is payment to our Civil Service of increased salaries and the increasing numbers in the Civil Service itself. This is a matter for the Government, for the Government alone. Unless they can prune down and pare down their expenses, it is useless for them to go to the people and say: “You must tighten your belts; you must not make demands; but you must not ask us to do any of these things.” It is incumbent on the Central Government to set an example. If they do set an example, I believe the people will meet them half way. If they fail to give that example and merely try to get out of their difficulties by introducing a new tax, a purchase tax or a sales tax, then eventually I think they will have to answer to the people when the time arrives.

Revenue here as regards State income, as regards the income of the entire community, is of interest. In 1953 our gross national product was £526,000,000. In 1962 it was estimated at £760,000,000. That was a 45 per cent increase in a decade, but our central tax revenue in 1953 was £88,000,000 and in 1962 £126,000,000, an increase of 55 per cent. It would, therefore, appear that in this country year by year our Central Government are taking a higher percentage of the people's earnings and telling the people they are able to spend it better than the people.

There is no sense in Opposition Deputies trying to give people the idea that if the Government would do this or stop doing that, everybody could live in the lap of luxury. I do not think any Fianna Fáil Minister has ever suggested that there is an easy road to success. There must be difficulties and the Government by themselves cannot solve these difficulties. Everybody has to play a part, whether it be in the role of worker, manager or employer, if our problems are ever to be solved. I think it would be well if Deputies and others would remind themselves occasionally of what we are attempting to do here. We are attempting to create a strong industrial arm because we believe that only by doing so can we effectively solve the problems of emigration and unemployment. We cannot hope to achieve in a few years standards which countries that have been highly industrialised for centuries are finding it difficult to maintain, but high standards will come if the present Government are allowed to continue their programme. They can only come, however, as a result of continued concerted effort.

The criticism by Deputies of Dublin Corporation's housing programme was, to say the least of it, very unfair. The Dublin City Council is composed of all shades of political opinion and it is at their meetings that complaints of their failure to provide sufficient dwellings should be made. The City Manager will there explain the situation and answer any charges that may be made. Such allegations, however, have been made outside the Chamber and they have been effectively answered by the City Manager in a report issued last September, a copy of which was sent to each member of the council. The report is also available to any Deputy who cares to make an intelligent study of Dublin's housing needs. Perhaps, it is too much to expect Opposition Deputies to make an intelligent or honest appraisal of that situation.

This report, I submit, gave the lie once and for all to those public representatives who have been painting lurid and harrowing pictures of the thousands of unfortunate Dublin families who are homeless while a lazy Corporation and Government stand idly by and do nothing about it. In estimating the housing needs of Dublin, the Minister must take into account the number of houses which become available as a result of net vacancies in existing housing estates. "Net vacancy" means the complete vacation of a house, not its transfer. In 1948 the estimated annual number of net vacancies was about 200, but it began to increase year by year until, in 1957, the figure had increased to 3,777. All through the years, the Corporation's housing drive continued and this, coupled with the continued increase in net vacancies, resulted in the Corporation finding difficulties in letting or re-letting houses. New development proposals were consequently suspended in 1956, the net vacancies continuing to rise. The Corporation were moving cautiously because people were leaving their homes and the final solution to the existing housing problem appeared to be in sight.

However, in 1960 and 1961, the previously increasing vacancy rate started to reverse itself and demands for houses began to increase again. Immediately the Corporation decided to look for and acquire new property. The time taken to acquire property and carry out a construction scheme on it is anything from five to ten years, and I would recommend for the consideration of Opposition Deputies the fact that the housing problem in Dublin was eased in 1956 because people were vacating their homes but that there was a reversal of that situation from 1960 onwards.

There is no conflict in our consideration of agriculture as our main industry or in our anxiety to develop the industrial arm. In fact, the latter provides a valuable and remunerative outlet for farm produce as well as providing employment opportunities for those who must normally leave the land and who would in other circumstances be compelled to emigrate. However, we must remember that nothing of really lasting good can come to any country without some sacrifice. There is no easy road to success, and really the only sacrifice being asked of the people is to help to give the industrial drive an opportunity to develop its full momentum.

Government policy has brought considerable benefits to our people and, despite what Opposition Deputies may say, this policy has been a continuing success. Every responsible assessor agrees there has, over the past five years, been an increase in employment and employment opportunities and a fall in the number of our people emigrating. This fall in emigration is borne out by the housing figures I quoted in regard to Dublin Corporation and Deputies who sit on the City Council are aware that the number of vacancies occurring in house tenancies in Dublin is now almost nil. This is due almost entirely to the fact that people who in other years would have had to seek employment in other countries are now finding work here at home. If this is true of Dublin, it is no less true of other parts of the country. A policy which has led to so many favourable trends cannot be condemned as a failure. It is a policy which every successive Irish Government must follow if we are to secure rising living standards for our people.

I shall commence by taking up a point which Deputy Cummins made. He mentioned that in 1957 there were 3,000 vacant houses in the Dublin Corporation area. He overlooked the fact that more corporation houses were built in 1956 than in any year since then. That was seven years ago. Naturally, with the drop in the house building programme so far as Dublin Corporation is concerned, we now find the situation where there are nearly 10,000 families seeking tenancy of corporation houses with very little prospect of being housed for many years to come.

Deputy Cummins also made reference to the return of emigrants. We all know that emigration has proceeded apace every year since 1957 and that almost 300,000 people emigrated from this country since 1957. There is no point in talking about a return of emigrants. Naturally, there are individuals who get tired of the life that is available to them in England and who return here and seek employment here. If they cannot get employment, they live somehow.

The debate on this occasion is like a post mortem. Every aspect of policy shows a disimprovement. Deputy Cummins talked of an increase in employment but, in fact, there are 42,000 fewer people earning wages now than there were in 1956, which was a very difficult year, the year of the economic blizzard. There are 42,000 fewer people earning wages than there were at that time, despite the fact that there has been a considerable uplifting, particularly in incomes and, of course, in industrial exports.

Against whatever upward trends that there have been, there have been very adverse conditions which have brought the country to the situation obtaining at the moment. There is before us now a proposal for the highest taxation ever imposed upon the country at a time when the population is at the lowest point ever reached. The rate of taxation per head of the population is £80. It is a heavy bill to pay mainly for the public services and public administration, in addition to certain subventions designed to improve certain sectors of the economy. In addition to this increased taxation, the average price of food to the housewife is higher than ever. The housewife gets very little for a £1 note now when she goes shopping for the bare essentials for the household. The cost of living has risen. When the Fianna Fáil Party were deploring the cost of living in 1957 they took good care not to reveal to the people that they would abolish the subsidies. The abolition of the subsidies increased the cost of the ordinary domestic commodities by £9 million. The price of food and essentials has further increased since then with the result that the cost of living has risen 22 points since the Government took office in 1957.

Local rates, which are a heavy form of direct taxation, particularly in rural areas, have gone up by nearly £1 million per year and it is anticipated that the rates applied this year will put a further £1 million on the existing rates.

Social Welfare stamps have risen enormously. Employees are now paying an extra £6 million and employers an extra £7 million, making a total of £13 million for social welfare stamps. That is a colossal bill.

Hospital charges have gone up considerably. The cost of health administration under the Health Act has created a dilemma for many local authorities. When the Health Bill was going through the House, the Minister for Health, who is now the Minister for Finance, stated that he did not expect that the increase in rates arising from the operation of the Act would be more than 1s. 6d. or 2/- in the £ but the health bill in any county council is higher than the bill for the repair and maintenance of roads. The cost of administration of the Health Services under the Health Act is now more than the cost of roads, which was always the high charge on local rates.

We have reached a situation now where we must consider whether it is desirable to alter the method of financing the health services and to adopt a new method of administration. A very large number of ratepayers are not entitled to any of the services available under the Health Act. Any ratepayer whose valuation is over £50 is not entitled to any of the services available under the Health Act and in rural and urban districts there are very large numbers of ratepayers over the £50 mark, none of whom can avail of the benefits of the Act although they contribute very substantially towards the cost of the services.

It was bad enough for those ratepayers who under the present conditions cannot benefit under the Health Act to be told that it would cause an increase in rates of between 1s. 6d. and 2/- in the £ but now those ratepayers find that the rate in the £ in respect of health charges is the highest on the list of items for which the rate is struck. It has gone over 10/-in the £, I believe, in County Dublin. God knows what it is in the corporation area but, in any case, it is on the top of the list, gone up from an estimated figure of approximately 2/-in the £. Yet, even though it has reached such a high level, ratepayers with a rateable valuation of over £50 must contribute substantially and at the same time, cannot benefit under any section of the Health Act. It is time the method of financing the health services was altered, either making it a national charge or ensuring that everybody will contribute and benefit.

This Government have a peculiar knack of doing things unfairly. We had an example last year when the old age pensioners on Budget day were granted an increase of 5d. a day, provided they lived until after 1st of August when the increase would become effective. Against that, we had a Bill in the House giving 35/- a day retrospective to the previous November to the judges. It did not seem equitable as the Government should first come to the rescue of the weaker sections of the community.

With these difficulties piling up, we also have the purchasing power of the £ falling. If the policy of the Government is continued, it may be expected to fall still lower. Without having the figures to hand, I believe the purchasing power of the £ in Ireland is less than in England. In the midst of their dilemma, the Government declared their intention to apply a wage standstill order under the respectable name of pay pause. There was considerable agitation at that suggestion and although the Government drew back from the proposal, employers have been given a headline by the Government that a pay pause must be applied and that increased wages must not arise. Although the Government have not actually done anything to prevent rises in wages, they have created an attitude in employers' minds which would not allow the giving of increased wages to be considered.

We are faced also with a £100 million adverse trade balance for which a remedy must be found. Probably this adverse balance has reached its present level as a result of the increased purchasing power from the eighth round of wages and apparently the pay pause proposal is to ensure that apart from no increased wages being given, the Government could act to reduce the purchasing power of the present wage level.

In 1956, the Government found a similar situation in which purchasing power became strong and there was considerable prosperity resulting in an adverse trade balance. That was quickly remedied in two ways. First, an economic blizzard moved in from Europe affecting Europe and Ireland and put an end to spending power. It also made the terms of trade for this country adverse. One thing in favour of the Government is that the terms of trade are favourable but in 1956 that was not so and it was necessary to find a remedy. That took the form of special levies on non-essential goods. Fianna Fáil made a tremendous row about it and aroused public opinion. No doubt, a fair measure of unemployment and economic depression resulted from those special levies, corrective measures, if you wish. There was a certain amount of unemployment and, I suppose, an increase in emigration due to that arrangement. However, although the levies were brought in in September, 1956, the country's economic situation had been remedied exactly 12 months' later which, of course, means that Deputy Sweetman should be given credit at least for correcting the adverse trade balance.

A number of businesses ceased and unemployment resulted. We may take it that when the sales tax, announced by the Taoiseach last week, is applied, when certain percentages are put on various articles—and I forecast that most of those articles will be the articles which were the subject of special levies in 1956—I am sure the first articles to become subject to sales tax will be imported ones. That will be designed to discourage spending money on imports. There is much to be said for that, particularly if Irish-manufactured goods of equal quality at competitive prices can be made available.

Great credit is due to General Costello not only for the great development work in which he is at present engaged but also for the very useful comparison which he made some days ago when he pointed out that the purchase of Irish manufactured goods means better business, more employment and less emigration, whereas the purchase of imported goods means emigration, less business and more unemployment. People should be encouraged to purchase Irish manufactured goods. It is then up to the Government to ensure that only the best goods are provided for our citizens. Too often we have had Irish goods badly made, badly finished and sold at a price they were not worth. We should ensure that the tariff protection is removed as soon as possible and that the Irish manufacturer will produce a high-quality article at a competitive price. For a long time, Irish industrialists have enjoyed a substantial measure of protection. Unfortunately, some Irish manufacturers took a mean advantage of that situation and did not try to bring their article up to a high quality, to improve their workmanship and to use the most modern methods of manufacture.

Generally speaking, however, Irish manufacturers are to be complimented, because in a relatively short space of time, they have succeeded in establishing their industries, manufacturing goods of high quality and introducing a very large measure of efficiency and skill, especially in those industries in which skill plays an important part. They deserve the thanks of the Irish people. The protective tariffs have been generous, but when our people got goods of a high quality in return, at least they got something for the protection made available.

There has been an increase in the export of manufactured goods in recent years. Great credit is due to Córas Tráchtála and the Industrial Development Association for obtaining the necessary information and statistics and for finding markets. On the other hand, agricultural exports have not kept pace with industrial exports, although this country is mainly an agricultural country. There is a considerable measure of unrest amongst the farming community. Rates have become an intolerable burden on many farmers, who find it difficult to make ends meet. Many of them have been obliged to cut down their costs. Unfortunately, they have cut down their costs by cutting down on staff. The result is that approximately 10,000 farm labourers have gone off the land in the past twelve months. The Fianna Fáil Party specialised in encouraging the growing of wheat. They spent large sums advertising such slogans as "Grow More Wheat". In recent years, they have changed their attitude. They appear to have swung over now to the millers rather than the farmers. They have left the wheat growers at the mercy of the millers.

That is surely more proper to the Vote for the Department of Agriculture?

Very well; I shall refrain from developing the point. I want to mention generally that the change in the wheat policy here will certainly affect our national economy, particularly when there will be a higher percentage of imported wheat.

A statement by Deputy Cummins has prompted me to recall some of the lavish promises of Fianna Fáil. In 1956, before the general election, the Taoiseach made a statement that Fianna Fáil had a policy which would increase the number of jobs here by 100,000. He was not merely satisfied to give a round figure of 100,000 jobs, but he said there would be 20,000 a year for five years. He has been very badly out in his prognostications. It looks now as if it was only an empty promise, because they have not attempted any policy which would bring about an increase in employment.

In fact, there has been a progressive decrease in employment. In addition to the fall of 10,000 jobs per year— there are now 50,000 fewer wage-earners than in 1956—we have a situation in which the number of persons employed on the land has fallen by nearly 10,000 in the past 12 months. Fianna Fáil have been in office now for 25 years, by hook or by crook. I do not know which way it is at the moment, especially having regard to the vote of a fortnight ago when they just held on with the aid of three Deputies who were not elected on the Party ticket and I doubt whether they were elected to support the Government.

In those 25 years of Fianna Fáil rule, approximately 300,000 farm workers have left the land and almost 1,000,000 have emigrated. The depopulation of rural areas has become very obvious because of the existence of so many derelict homes, houses which have been abandoned by their occupants who have possibly gone to England because they could not get a living from their little holdings. Those are some of the 300,000 people who left the land during the 25 years when Fianna Fáil were in office. The figures seem to show that, in fact, the average earnings of farmers per head at the moment are less than the earnings of a farm labourer. That shows that those people are just holding on to a way of life which could not be regarded as economic.

While there has been a considerable drop in the local authority housing campaign, at the same time, fabulous grants are being given to build luxury hotels and provide additional rooms. Certainly, the working class families who are crying out for local authority houses will never enjoy the comfort of these extra rooms which are being provided in these luxury hotels. It is a wrong approach on the part of Fianna Fáil who always seem to put their values in the wrong place instead of taking first things first.

The huge grants being made available, particularly for the extension of these hotels, are the talk of the country and if Fianna Fáil are in touch, and I am sure they are, with the average citizen they must hear that talk. At the same time, there are many working class families who have very little prospect of getting a tenancy of a council house. You may have three families living under one roof of many working class houses, or, if you like, in labourers' cottages. There may be as many as 18 people living under that roof. There may be parents with four or five children and they cannot get a county council house because they are already living in one with their parents and possibly also a married brother or sister. They cannot get a house because of the system whereby the county council would not be entitled to the usual grant from the Department of Local Government which is given towards the cost of building a cottage. There are thousands of these families all over the country living as sub-tenants in these council cottages with no prospect of getting the tenancy of a cottage.

Would it not be necessary to introduce legislation to alter that?

The Deputy is not entitled to advocate legislation.

I do not wish to advocate legislation in this matter. What I am saying is that there are thousands of families in these cottages looking on at the very large grants that are being paid out to luxury hotels and——

I understand that legislation would be required to alter that.

To alter what?

What the Deputy is talking about.

Surely it is open to the Minister for Local Government to orient capital expenditure for the housing of the poor——

On that basis, Deputies could discuss all the Estimates but on this Vote a Deputy may not advocate legislation.

We are talking about policy. No legislation is necessary here.

It is. Unfortunately, my opinion holds against the Deputy. The Deputy is advocating legislation.

Very well; but my opinion holds against the Deputy.

Apparently the Fianna Fáil Party sat back when they believed there was a prospect of this country getting into the Common Market. They seemed to assume that conditions would be easy and everything would go well if we got into the Common Market. They made a very poor effort to equip the agricultural side of our economy for the occasion. Holland, which is about the size of Munster, exported something like £94 million worth of food and agricultural produce to Great Britain. When you consider that that was a small fraction of their complete agricultural output, it is obvious that a proper effort was not made by the Government to improve the marketing system here for agricultural produce and to find ways and means of selling our produce at a reasonable price.

We all remember the solemn promises made by Fianna Fáil to reduce taxation. Deputy Hogan gave very significant figures which showed that while taxation has gone up by almost 100 per cent, taking this year's figure, the national income has gone up by only 45 per cent. Taxation is increasing at a higher rate than the national income. Something will have to be done to ensure that that trend is altered. Another aspect of expenditure which should receive consideration is school building. The estimates for school building have been increased under all headings. This is very welcome but what I should like to mention is the policy of abandoning soundly built schools, purchasing a site and building a brand new school.

The Estimates provide that Deputies may discuss the details of Estimates. This Vote provides that Deputies discuss the general principles of Government policy and abandoning schools and constructing new ones in their place is not a general principle. It is a detail of a Departmental policy.

Very well. I shall raise it on the Estimate for the Department of Education. I think I mentioned earlier, but it is worth mentioning it again, that it is very significant that there were more local authority houses built in 1956 than in any year since. In County Dublin, there was a decrease since those years mainly because the Department of Local Government followed the policy of quibbling and referring back any proposals submitted to them by the county council, the idea being to fight expenditure at all costs, which of course resulted in the fact that a very small number of houses was built by the Dublin County Council. It was not their fault because they made every effort to get these schemes sanctioned but the Department of Local Government, in accordance with Government policy, obviously—because it was all over the country; it was not restricted to County Dublin—wanted to cut down on local authority housing. There is now a movement again towards the building of more local authority houses and the encouragement of county councils to build them.

In addition to the burdens I have mentioned already, almost every commodity normally used in the household, including various types of food, has been increased considerably in price. These have been increased by Government order, particularly by the withdrawal of the food subsidies; then of course we had the increase of 10d. in the lb. in the price of butter and then a further increase of 3d. The tax on tobacco was considerably increased. There was also a very steep increase in bus fares; in fact, you might as well travel in a taxi as in a bus or train to some of the places which were within the means of travellers in previous times. ESB charges have gone up.

Regional water schemes are part of Government policy but when these regional water schemes are established, they will nearly be as big a problem as the health charges. When we start to bring piped water to the rural areas, down the bog roads, back and forward from one village to another and from one hamlet to another, after servicing the various towns, there will be a colossal bill. In fact, it is such a frightening prospect that at this stage the implications of the possible ultimate cost of these regional water schemes ought to be examined. Certainly the ratepayers in the rural areas are becoming frightened and they believe that the rate in the £ for this purpose will be very substantial. It will be like the position in relation to the Health Act. The Minister for Finance told us it would cost 1/6 in the £ but not more than 2/- and now it is the biggest item on the rates under the various services. This matter of regional water supplies should be re-examined to see whether it would be better to have local water supplies provided instead of regional water schemes.

It is very hard to imagine that it will be possible for the Minister for Finance this year to find ways and means of imposing taxation and obtaining revenue to meet this staggering bill which is proposed for the country during the coming year, especially considering that the national income has not gone up proportionately and that it could not be expected to go up in proportion. It will impose a very great strain on the wage packets of the nation and also on the profits of the business people. All citizens will be struck very heavily by the taxes which it will be necessary to impose in order to get this very staggering sum.

In addition to collecting this enormous sum that stands in our Book of Estimates, the Minister has the job of correcting our adverse trade balance. Between correcting the adverse trade balance and collecting the highest amount of taxation ever proposed for such a small community, there is bound to be caused a considerable amount of unemployment, a great measure of poverty and indeed hardship amongst the weaker sections of our community. It will certainly be very difficult for the people on the subsistence level of earnings, earnings that are barely enough to meet the cost of the essentials of life, to make ends meet. They are the people who will suffer first.

The country cannot afford the very high rate of taxation which it will be necessary to impose if these figures are to be attained during the year. Certainly if the Government set about correcting the adverse trade balance by the imposition of sales taxes on a variety of goods, it will cut down business and profits and cause further unemployment and emigration. It was very shortsighted to allow that situation to arise. It is there now and it needs to be corrected. The situation has become more urgent as a result of our failure to participate in the Common Market. We believed that there would be an increased national income, if we had succeeded in getting into the Common Market, which of course would enable us to balance the situation, so far as our imports and exports were concerned.

Last year, when we were considering the Vote on Account, I sat in the House for most of the Vote and I think I heard nearly all the speeches. This year, I did not hear quite so many of the speeches but I had an opportunity of reading some of the speeches that I missed. At that time in 1962, we were confronted with a substantial increase in taxation also. If I can remember correctly, it was something in the order of £16 million as against £18 million on this occasion. Speeches made last year by Deputies on the opposite side in their efforts to justify the increase would have convinced most people that there was a case to be made for that increase. At least they would have convinced people who were not fully familiar with the living standards of the farmers and farm workers. I have a clear recollection that every second sentence in the speeches made on that occasion referred to the buoyancy of the economy. In fact, I think it would be right to say that the entire case made by the Government Deputies was based on the buoyancy of the economy.

Having listened to all those speeches at that time—and I have to confess to having been partly convinced by them —it was a matter of considerable interest to me what sort of record would be played on this occasion, and what sort of argument would be advanced in support of the increased taxation that was being sought this year. How were the Government going to stand up and justify this, in view of the fact that the buoyancy of the economy on this occasion could not be mentioned and that it had been found necessary to introduce a pay pause, that we had approximately 15,000 more people unemployed, and that we had a deficit in the balance of trade that was an all time record, something over £100 million?

These were certainly not the conditions and the circumstances that one could associate with a buoyant economy. We had emigration proceeding apace. We had rates soaring and at the same time the cost of living swiftly rising and we had a condition of affairs where the housing of the working class people had never been so neglected, when in Dublin Corporation area, we had over 9,000 applicants for houses and in Dublin County Council area something in the region of 2,000. The Government by not building local authority houses over the past seven years saved money in that Department, but how was it used? It certainly was not used to improve the economy in any other sector.

Then when we looked to the position of the farming community, we were clearly able to see that that aspect of the economy was not in a healthy state either. The prices of wheat and pigs had been reduced. The prices of fat cattle are, I suppose, worse at the present time than they have been for many years, and the carcase meat trade is running at about half capacity. These are all indicators of the state of the national economy. The farmers have come through the worst harvest in history and, generally speaking, there is no obvious confidence in the future of the industry.

This time last year, Deputies on the opposite benches could talk about nothing but the buoyancy in the economy. We had not exactly arrived in Utopia but at the same time every economic indicator pointed definitely and decidedly in that direction. Something went wrong, and I think the thing that went wrong was that the gamble on the Common Market did not come off. We did not arrive in the Common Market, and we were left back home facing the same grim realities which I hold have ever been with us and about which we have been reminded in our efforts to gain entrance to the Common Market. At least our efforts to get into the Common Market did that much good. They brought it obviously to our attention that we were at least a very underdeveloped country, where many mistakes had been made and opportunities lost.

In all those circumstances, I asked myself: what now will the Government say? How will they try to justify the present position and the demand for an increase of £18 million in the Vote on Account? They have adopted a different role on this occasion. They keep on asking members on this side of the House what they would do in similar circumstances. Would we reduce the Vote under this, that or the other heading? I do not think there is any Deputy on this side of the House so inexperienced as to be likely to fall for that. We are entitled to say that the necessity for most of this expenditure is the result of 35 years of mismanagement. We are entitled to say that the economy is sick and that most of this money is required now to purchase cushions to comfort diseases. The necessary measures were not taken in time, and now we find ourselves face to face and in direct competition with countries that had looked ahead and made preparations for the competitive period in which we find ourselves.

We are entitled to assert that much of the losses incurred on the wheat crop were completely and absolutely unnecessary, and that most of those losses could have been overcome if proper arrangements were made for the intake of this wheat at harvest time. We know, too, that regarding the policy of exporting large quantities of unmillable wheat—I hazard a guess on this but I think we have exported in the region of 80,000 tons of unmillable wheat—quite an amount of that wheat could have been made millable, if taken in quickly and dried immediately. No such arrangements were made and now it has been exported as feed wheat. It is feeding stuff of a very high food value and we have exported some of it at £16 10s. per ton, while we are importing at the same time large quantities of maize and wheat offals at a price of £22 per ton. That can only lead to a very heavy loss to the revenue of the country and to the supplying of low grade feeding stuffs to our farmers. It is hard to fathom the arrangements that appear to have been made behind the scenes with the feeding stuffs group whereby these importations are allowed.

I feel the Deputy is getting away from the terms of the Vote on Account which deals with Government expenditure. The Deputy is dealing with details of agriculture which would properly arise on the Estimate for Agriculture.

What Deputy Clinton has mentioned accounts for about £3 million of the Estimate which is 1½ per cent of the total Budget.

Nevertheless, I feel it would arise on the Estimate for Agriculture rather than on the Vote on Account.

I am trying to indicate ways in which the increased demands could have been avoided. We have also the right to say that the marketing of bacon is very badly done and that most of our difficulties in this sector could be overcome with a better breeding policy which would give us a bacon that would sell without a subsidy or with a very much smaller subsidy. Similarly, in connection with the carcase meat trade which is running at half its capacity——

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy again but these are really matters for the Estimate. We are now dealing with the Vote on Account and the details of the Agricultural Estimate will arise later.

I am trying to indicate that if we had a proper marketing policy, we would not have to provide anything like the vast sums of money to support exports that we are providing at the moment. Is that irrelevant?

I do not think it arises on the Vote on Account.

We are being challenged to indicate points where substantial reductions could be made. Surely we are entitled to say that if they were not daft, they would not be spending £500,000 in exporting wheat for the benefit of foreigners and buying pollard for the benefit of the Russians?

It is not feasible to discuss details of administration of different Departments on the Vote on Account. The Deputy is proceeding to discuss details of the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

The Minister for Justice today invited Deputies on this side of the House to propose reductions under any particular headings and he said that if a proposal were made showing that the Estimates could be reduced by any substantial sum, the Government would consider it. Deputy Clinton is proposing to show where this Estimate could be cut.

Matters of general policy on expenditure are in order but the Deputy is going into details on the Agricultural Estimate which should never be dealt with on the Vote on Account.

I direct your attention to the statement of the Taoiseach in column 729, Volume 200, in which he says:

Anybody objecting to higher taxation must, in all honesty, avoid proposing higher expenditure for any purpose, and I think they should also demonstrate their sincerity by indicating which of the existing services should be cut down or cut out.

Surely it is in order in answer to that request from the Taoiseach to suggest that certain services should be cut down?

I agree that such suggestions can be made but they must be made within the rules of order. Deputy Clinton is going outside the rules of order.

Is it not fair to suggest that we can cut down expenditure by forgoing the shipping of wheat abroad at £16 10s. a ton and buying pollard at £22 a ton? That would be a saving of £500,000.

He should not go into details.

Half a million pounds is no detail. Give me £500,000 and I will retire.

I have to accept the ruling of the Chair. I intended to refer to the carcase meat trade and also to the sheep trade. Is it relevant to talk about milk? I ask that question because a considerable sum is required to support the export of milk products.

I do not know what the Deputy is going to say about milk and I cannot rule until I know what he is going to say.

The only thing I want to say is that we will have to arrive at a situation where we will need less support for the export of milk products. Nothing has been done over the years to ensure that the quality of the milk produced was such that it could be converted into highly priced products which would be saleable in markets in which we cannot sell our butter. The obvious way to do that is to give a bonus for higher quality milk. That is being sought at present and is being resisted strongly by the Government. That is a great mistake and is something which should be reconsidered.

I understand that we have now arrived at the point, according to the Taoiseach, where the effort to secure a bonus for higher quality milk can be described as a power struggle. I am glad to say that the power struggle is now over and that a joint application by the farmers' organisations is to be made to the Taoiseach and to the Minister for Agriculture for consultation in the matter. I hope the outcome of that consultation will be favourable to all concerned. I had better leave the agricultural side of the matter now or I might find myself in difficulties.

I would like to turn to the industrial side. I want to give it as my opinion that the Industrial Development Authority and An Foras Tionscal are failing to secure the establishment of new industries and the development of existing industries which is so urgently required if the increased employment so urgently needed here is to be provided. Much could be done to strengthen these organisations and expand their activities.

Vast sums are spent annually through the local authorities. While we are continuously exhorted by various Government Departments to bring in efficiency experts to see what economies can be effected and how efficiency can be improved, we never hear the same suggestion given to local authorities. They have been carrying on in the same haphazard way as long as I can remember.

I was pleased to read an announcement that there is now a move towards the establishment of an advisory body in the building trade. I sincerely hope this does not lead to a postponement of the building of local authority houses in the enormous numbers required, if present needs are to be met. This Government have a reputation for setting up commissions, committees and boards as the answer to immediate needs. That has proved a very cold substitute for getting on with the work.

I shall not take very long but I do want to make a few comments on some of the speeches made by members of the Government and to assert that much damage has been done to the economy of the nation by the lack of decision displayed by these people. For instance, today we had the Minister for Justice announcing that there was no pay pause, while only a few days ago the Minister for Finance agreed there was a pay pause but said it would be of only short duration. Which of them is speaking with the voice of the Government?

Of course a headline has been set. The Taoiseach announced through the White Paper a certain line of policy. Then, a couple of days afterwards, he announced that everybody had misinterpreted him, that nobody had the brains or the intelligence to read what was in the White Paper. The truth of the matter is that the Government do not know exactly where they are. Indeed I can well recall a time when there appeared—I stress the word "appeared"—to be a slight difference of opinion between members of a former Government and Fianna Fáil quickly pointed at us shouting: "Different voices cannot agree". Is that the position now with this Government, or what is the position?

We had the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach announcing that expenditure had outstepped production and that it was necessary to curb expenditure by various people, mainly wage earners, putting the brake on. Wage earners were to get no increases nor were they to seek them. Other interests in the country were to ensure there was no change or no diversion from Government policy on this matter. The Taoiseach directed civil servants, public bodies, national industries and others not to entertain demands for increased rates of wages. It seems rather strange that having said that, we should get this Book of Estimates, involving the greatest increase in expenditure ever seen in any one year.

We were told by the Minister for Justice today we should say where our savings should come from. He seemed to undertake on behalf of the Government to examine any such suggestion and give effect to it. In passing, Sir I would suggest that is a breach of the rules of order. You had ruled that it was not in order to come down to details in this debate. I suggest therefore that this invitation of the Minister for Justice to us to come down to details should not have been permitted. The Minister did not put any restriction on amount. I say that a sum of £500,000 is no detail to anybody, except, possibly, to Fianna Fáil. Large sums like that have always been regarded as mere details by them.

We had a statement by a former Taoiseach, now the President, that £22 million of Marshall Aid money which we left was only a remnant. He then proceeded to spend that £22 million which we had left on the table for him. I am sorry we ever left it: it is a pity we left it to him and to the Fianna Fáil Government because we got no thanks for it, but any amount of abuse from the then Taoiseach and from his Ministers, including the present Minister for Transport and Power, who went down to Newtownforbes and told the people the inter-Party Government were on a spending spree, that we had spent all the people's money in the most fruitless and futile way.

Of course it was easy to assert that at the time but when he was challenged about emigration and our external assets, he informed the House that our external assets were our standing army of occupation in Britain and that it was imperative that that standing army of occupation be maintained. Of course everybody knows that when you have a standing army outside the country, you need to reinforce it. Ours, unfortunately, was reinforced with our boys and girls who had to emigrate because of Fianna Fáil mishandling and mismanagement.

Last week the Minister for Lands told us that the most remarkable thing that had occurred was that the Dublin Stock Exchange index figure had gone up very steeply, that in 1959 the index number was 109.7 and had risen to 232.9 in January, 1963. I said that that was interesting and the Minister said, "It is a remarkable story. These are remarkable figures". I am sure the small farmers of Mayo will be glad to know that the Stock Exchange index figure has improved so much and that it will be of material benefit to them to know that there are people who invested money in stocks and shares who have doubled their income and capital while the income of the farmers of Mayo for milk and other products is below the 1956 level. It will be a great comfort to them and I am sure when the Minister for Lands is addressing his constituents, he will be able to convince them that that is a great day for the people of Mayo.

I am surprised that the Minister for Lands should adopt that line of argument. I could understand the Minister for Transport and Power telling the people in Newtownforbes that sort of story but I cannot understand the Minister for Lands telling it to us here for the people of Mayo to learn.

The amount on the face of the Book of Estimates is the highest that has ever been produced. This amount must be considered in the light of the fact that it is introduced by a Government who time after time over recent years have asserted that taxation and expenditure had reached the limit. Fianna Fáil got into office originally on the theme that they could reduce taxation by £2 million at a time when the total taxation was £20 million. They had suggestions as to how that could be reduced. They said that no person, no matter who he was or how able he was or what office he might hold was entitled to receive more than £1,000 per annum. To their credit, it must be said that the Fianna Fáil Government when they came in in 1932 did reduce their own salaries to £1,000 per annum. They did that for one year. They soon changed the tune. After the 1933 election, that went by the board and there never has been a reduction of that type since but, on the contrary, there have been increases. The strange thing is that the ordinary people are told that their incomes must be kept down and that they must live within their means. They will have to do that in any case.

Then we are told that taxation in this country, both national and local, is the lowest in Europe, as if this country and its development can be compared with any of the countries that have been mentioned. The Taoiseach must have been taking a lesson from the Minister for Transport and Power. It is a favourite line of the Minister for Transport and Power to quote other countries and to try to convince people that we are not so badly off vis-à-vis some other country. The truth of the matter is that our country is becoming depopulated. The population of rural Ireland is diminishing every day, solely because the people are not being properly remunerated.

Today the Minister for Justice told me that as an economist, I was a good General. I can pass that. I have asserted, as an economist, that there is no person more entitled to spend money than the person who earns it. That is fundamental. No Government, no matter how able they may be, can spend money better than the people who work for it and earn it and know the value of it. That is a sound economic proposition. When the Minister for Justice commented that, as an economist, I was a good General, I felt like making a comment. I am sorry the Minister is not here now but I will make the comment in any case. I am not, perhaps, an economist but I have always been able to do the duty and to perform the work I set before me, in the forge or in the field or in government. I have held my own. I have never done anything that I look back on with regret. I assert that as an economist the Minister for Justice is a first-class General—a topper. He was able to manoeuvre and get the Government to manoeuvre the Auditor General out and to get the firm to which he is attached manoeuvred in. That is no bad generalship.

That does not arise on the Vote on Account.

It does arise.

It does not arise on the Vote on Account.

In that case, the Minister for Justice should have been told that at the time he made the assertion I have quoted.

The Chair is the judge of order and of what may be debated in the House, not Ministers. A Minister may have made assertions but, if they are out of order, the Chair must rule the reply out of order.

Was the Minister for Justice in order in making the comment that, as an economist, I was a good General? These are the words he used. If I am not entitled to make a similar comment, in reply, then I will not make it. Of course, the spoken word cannot be recalled. I have said it.

This Book of Estimates gives no hope to the people. There is hope in it for the people who want to build very large hotels and for tourists who I hope will come because if they come the goods and services they purchase here will represent invisible exports. In that way we can get our balance of payments problem, if there is such a problem, rectified to some extent.

The Government should make up their mind as to what their policy is with regard to the problem they say exists and say how this increased expenditure will assist us to get over that problem. When they have decided on policy, it would be well if the Taoiseach got them into a room and said: "Here is the policy and there is to be no going back on it". But apparently every Minister is free to put his own interpretation on the White Paper. Yet they wonder at others saying they do not understand what the Government mean. It is clear the Government themselves do not know what their policy is.

I should like to continue but I feel that I have said enough. The Minister for Justice was patronising but he is young and I suppose we can overlook that. I certainly do because he is the son of a man for whom I had a very high regard. I suppose that, having a regard for the father, I must continue to have it for the son.

This debate continued all last week and I was not able to stay in the House during all the speeches because I had other business to do in the interests of those who elected me. Today, I heard Deputy M.J. O'Higgins suggest that members of the House should take their minds back over a period of years. He quoted from the Official Reports and other sources. He impressed me as a very able debater who could speak for hours without saying anything positive except something said in a discouraging manner. He tried to make a comparison between the increased taxation proposed this year to run the public services and the amount by which people were taxed in 1956 but there is no comparison between the position of the country then and now.

In 1956 due, in my opinion, to the mishandling of the Coalition Government, there was an air of despondency in the country. The Deputy seemed to me to be trying to infer that the Fianna Fáil Party were responsible for that. Listening to him, if one did not know the history of the period, one would feel that it was Fianna Fáil who through what he called their campaign drove the Coalition Government out of office. He did not say they went to the country in 1957 apparently thinking it was unwise to face up to a vote of the House when they had dissension in their own ranks and when their own members realised—I should say some of them—that if they remained much longer in office, there was no hope financially for the country's future.

I was not a member of the House then but I was in close touch with local affairs. I heard a lot of talk to-day about the houses that were built but my experience was that there was not enough money to complete some of the houses in our area. Anybody who has spent a long term on a local body and is in close touch with housing programmes realises that it takes at least five years in a rural area, whatever happens in city areas, before you can get a housing scheme under way——

Five years?

The Deputy is daft.

You are dafter, with all due respect. Flippant talk is all right. Probably Deputy Dillon has as long experience of local bodies as I have but I am here to tell the truth and we never got a scheme through in a shorter period than five years——

That is not right.

——from the day it was initiated until we started to build the houses. At that time, confidence in the Government was at a very low level. Moneys were not available to pay the grants the people expected.

They are very slow now.

They are far better than they were then. Grants to local authorities were held up. Those receiving moneys as State pensioners or otherwise often wondered if they would get the ordinary allowances to which they were entitled at the beginning of the following month. The health services were at a pretty low ebb then. There is a vast improvement today. The people can better afford to pay now. Social welfare services are far better today than they were then, and there is no difficulty in getting the money to keep them going. There is more road work.

I have heard some Deputies opposite say agriculture is declining, but they only made a feeble attempt to furnish the proof. I am a farmer all my life, and the price of land was never as high as it is today. If agriculture was in a poor condition, would there be such a demand for land? Would the foreigners we hear so much talk about be trying to buy land here, even though they have to pay a high tax on the purchase, if they were not satisfied that the economy of Ireland was sound?

I regret that it was insinuated twice from the Fine Gael benches that the dairy farmers have supplied milk to creameries in a dirty state. That is a lie. It is a statement that should not have been made. I live in a creamery district. A share of the milk from the farmers there, including my own, went for the manufacture of cheese last year. There was no such thing as dirty milk. The creameries would not accept it.

That would seem to be a matter for the Estimate.

I am referring to it because it was raised here. However, I shall not go on.

Dulcissima.

Our workers were never as well paid. The people on the Fine Gael benches referred to the fact that Ministers and Deputies on this side have asked them what would they do. I would not ask them that. It is not a case of what they would do, but a case of what they would not do. In 1956 they did nothing, and let the country go to pot. The present Government, even at the risk of misrepresentation, have shown that unless output keeps pace with wages and salaries, the national financial balance will be thrown out, with dire effects on our people.

Despite the gloomy picture the members of the Opposition tried to paint, let us compare the position now to the position under the Coalition Government. All the loans floated by the Government have been successful.

I know the Deputy will make a mountain out of a molehill.

It was no molehill. One of them failed.

That was the very thing that put people out of employment, because money could not be got for the carrying out of capital works. That contributed to putting 95,000 of our people on the unemployment lists. That showed the people had no confidence, and I feel they still have not that confidence.

The public memory is not so short. Deputy O'Higgins spoke glibly today. He said he wanted to drive this Government out of office. He will get his opportunity in his own good time. But it will probably be a case of the biter bitten. Whatever the decision of the people, we must abide by it.

You may say that this bill for the public services is the highest ever, but the people were never so well off. Their standard of living is high. They are entitled to it and I am glad of it. The money for these services would not be increased were it not for the fact that the country can still afford to pay for them. The Fianna Fáil Government, having cleared up in 1961 the mess left by the Coalition, which retarded progress for a couple of years, have done very well since. They have been responsible for raising the morale of the people. When Fianna Fáil came into office after the Coalition that morale was very low.

There were many thousands more employed in 1956 than there are now.

Despite what Labour, Fine Gael or any of the people opposite may say, I feel the future of the country is safer in the hands of Fianna Fáil than any Coalition.

It is a refreshing and stimulating experience to listen to Deputy Meaney. He has all the exterior of a simple man, but a more cunning old warrior never trod the path of politics.

I did not think I deserved the compliment.

I want to read him a lesson. He has repeated, with all the accents of a simple man, the traditional Fianna Fáil falsehood that a national loan issued by the Government of Ireland failed because potential investors doubted its credit. I want to tell Deputy Meaney that is not true. The difference is that when the rates of interest and the terms proposed for a national loan during the period of the inter-Party Government failed to match the market, Fianna Fáil proclaimed that that meant that the national credit had gone down. When the Fianna Fáil Government misjudged the money market and failed to match the terms they proposed for a national loan and the loan failed to fill, the Fine Gael Opposition said "that contains no reflection on the credit of this country; it simply shows that the financial advisers to the Government made a technical mistake in fixing the rate of interest one quarter per cent too low."

I want Deputy Meaney to learn this simple lesson. It does not matter what Irish Government pledges the credit of the Irish people, it remains the credit of the Irish people, and when for a dirty, political end he gets up, either in Cork or in Dáil Éireann, and says that an inter-Party Government loan failed because the public had no confidence in the credit of the Irish people, he does a disservice to our country. No intelligent person listening to him believes him when he tries to reflect on the Government that issued the loan but a lot of decent honest people in the country do believe him when he says that those who were knowledgeable did not trust the credit of the Irish people any more. Now I know Deputy Meaney is not as innocent as he likes to look. He is a cute old warrior and he knows very well the malignant mischief of the words he utters. What I want to warn him about is that in his malignant desire to injure the reputation of political opponents let him not bespatter the reputation of our common country.

I am sorry if I hurt the Deputy.

No, the Deputy did not hurt me. He could not hurt me. He might as well throw peas at Nelson Pillar. What I am trying to teach the Deputy is that in his vicious misrepresentation of a strictly technical matter he seeks to reflect upon a Party in the public life of this country but, in fact, he denigrates the credit of our country, our people, and does a disservice to the country he professes to serve. He is not unique in that. I have heard some of the more venerable members of his own Front Benches insinuate the same thing, not because they believed it, because, of course, they have the advice of expert officials to warn them of the error of any such assertion. There are some simpletons in the back benches who chose to believe it but Deputy Meaney is not amongst them. He is being mischievous but, in fact, he is striking the country and the people he professes to serve.

Now I want to say a word about the contribution made by the Minister for Lands. Mark you, this is significant because as I listened to one Minister after another being thrown in to bolster their shattered ranks, I was struck by the wild flights of irresponsibility to which they were prepared to ascend. The Minister for Lands has suddenly become an expert on the Stock Exchange and he measured the growing prosperity of the Irish nation by the equity index of the current Stock Exchange quotation as shown by the fact that in 1959 it was 109.7 and in January 1963 it was 232.9. I want to tell him a little story. I remember a time in Germany when the Stock Exchange index was 109.7 and a month later it was 209 and a month later it was 1009 and a month later still it was 5009. But I can assure you there was nobody in Germany standing on the hustings waving a flag to proclaim this as an index of the growing prosperity of the German nation.

There is hardly a comparison, is there?

Wait and see. These are preliminary observations. I propose to proceed with the main theme to-morrow at a quarter to four but in these preliminary observations, I want to finish the picture that obtained in Germany in those days. There was the widow woman who had her savings in the bank and she inquired anxiously when the Stock Exchange index rose to 209. They told her her money was still in the bank. She drew some of the money out—and in those days people did not talk so much about the cost of living; they simply said prices were going up—and she found that what was customarily enough to provide for a week's requirements this week did not serve for more than four days. When the Stock Exchange quotation went up to 1009, she found that what had sufficed for one week barely served to furnish for one day. That was not the end of the story because there came a day when, according to the criterion of the Minister for Lands, prosperity was blossoming all over the Weimar Republic and she went to her bank with her bank book and produced it to her bank manager who told her they had written off the balance because as its value had sunk so low it was no longer worth the ink required to record it.

It is perfectly true that there were speculators who made great fortunes at that time; it is perfectly true that the Irish visitor in Germany at that time got great value for his foreign currency; and it is perfectly true that the widow woman who went hungry because her substance had disappeared was not so vocal but the fact that she starved slowly was no less distressing for her because she had not the privilege which Deputy Meaney enjoys of speaking his mind in Parliament. I suggest to the Minister for Lands if he is looking for criteria of national prosperity, he should survey the figures he quoted from the Stock Exchange with somewhat more discretion before he reaches the dramatic conclusions that he seemed to have created in his mind.

I have some figures into which I want to go. They deal with housing. I hope Deputy Meaney will be here tomorrow and I hope my old and venerable friend, Deputy Dolan of Cavan, will be here. He is always very eloquent about housing and the finances for housing. I want to tell him all about the finances of housing with special reference to housing finances in County Cavan. I have a special piece prepared for him so that he will fully understand it, locally and nationally.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 13th March, 1963.
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