Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Mar 1963

Vol. 200 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Motion by Minister for Finance (Resumed).

When the House adjourned last night, I had referred to certain observations made by Deputies on the Fianna Fáil benches. To-day I am looking at the general question of policies raised by the Vote on Account. I want to direct the attention of the House to the fact that we are in the presence of a series of remarkable records in this year. For the first time in the history of this State, the adverse trade balance has reached almost £100 million. But for the very fortunate movement in the terms of trade to our advantage during the past 12 months, that adverse trade balance would have been nearer £104 million. For the first time in the history of this State, Government expenditure as expressed by the Supply Service Estimates and Central Fund will exceed £200 million. For the first time since this State was established, the national debt exceeds £500 million and for the first time in our history, so far as I am aware, the cost of living has reached the index figure of 160, which represents an increase in the cost of living index of 25 points since this Government took office in 1957.

The fiscal statistics to which I have referred have to be seen in the appropriate background. If we were in a period where imports were steeply rising and exports were stable or even rising, where the gross national product was maintaining an upward movement, the figures to which I have referred might not be as alarming as I suggest they are. However, when we look back over the past 12 months, we observe that the trend in imports has been rising while the trend in exports has been declining and when we consider that when the Taoiseach states that the average increase in that gross national product over the past three years has been four per cent, what he really means is that the rate of increase in 1960 was six per cent but had fallen to four per cent in 1961 and is now less than three and a half per cent in 1962, we realise that the use of average statistics is a dangerous occupation unless it is employed for the purpose of deceiving those who do not inquire more closely into how the average is arrived at.

Side by side with these remarkable figures, the rates property owners have to pay have reached in this year of grace the highest figure ever reached since the State was founded. It is true that last year there was an additional supplementary grant for agriculture amounting to something over £2 million. Since that grant was made, changes in the rate demand all over the country, I believe, have absorbed it all. The total rate demand has risen by more than the £2 million which was added to the agricultural grant last year and something that Deputies should not forget is that, in the allocation of the supplementary agricultural grant for the relief of rates on land last year, no corresponding relief whatever was made to the householder in the country towns of Ireland.

Can you picture the reaction of a small shopkeeper trying to earn a living in any town in County Mayo who has been informed that his rates hereafter are to exceed £3 in the £? Can you imagine the feelings of any young couple who married and built themselves a house and who now see the time coming when their initial exemption from rates is to disappear and they are faced with an annual rent on their house in perpetuity of £3 in the £? Therefore, the astonishing situation is that in respect of that burden which people have to bear, we have reached a record level never before attained since this State was founded.

It is an interesting exercise to apply what seems to me to be the only valid test to the policy of a Government. We here in this House are accustomed year after year to hearing the Government proclaim their hopes and explain the aims they have in mind when they introduce their Budgets, their legislation and everything else. Hopes are one thing but facts are quite another. Hopes are ephemeral: facts are inescapable. What are the facts? After the past six years of Fianna Fáil administration, it is not unreasonable to look back to what the Taoiseach expressed as his belief of what the functions of the Government should be. Speaking in this House, as recorded at column 1144, Volume 161, of the Official Report of the 14th May, 1957, the Taoiseach, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lemass, said:

...I and my colleagues have no doubt in our minds that we became the Government because the people expected us to work determinedly and intelligently to bring about a situation in which employment would expand, in which the twin problems of unemployment and emigration would be vigorously tackled.

Since he uttered those words in this House, we have exported to Great Britain and elsewhere 300,000 boys and girls, the vast majority of them between the ages of 18 and 30 years. I am sometimes astonished at the brazen-faced effrontery of the Fianna Fáil Party speaking about unemployment when we have more than 60,000 people unemployed at the present time after we have sent abroad 300,000 employable people in the past six years.

The census authority in Great Britain has quite a dramatic announcement to make and it is another record of which this House should take note. For the first time in the history of Great Britain or Ireland, Irish-born nationals from the Republic of Ireland represent today approximately five per cent of the total population of the city of London. That is another record which Fianna Fáil can chalk up as their contribution to the improvement of conditions in Ireland.

Over that same period, bus fares, postal rates, the prices of tobacco, beer, bread and butter have all been increased by the Government and now we are informed in the White Paper which they have recently circulated that there is to be a wages freeze. It is hard to know what way their mind is working. If one listened to the Taoiseach last December, or indeed to some of his Ministers in the course of this debate, one would imagine everything in the garden was lovely. Yet, if we accept the terms of his White Paper, we are faced with an acute crisis, to avert which energetic steps must be taken.

All I want to say on that White Paper is that if steps have to be taken along those lines, they ought to be steps based on justice and equity and equality of sacrifice. I am quite unable to understand a policy which lays it down that the wage earner must exercise extreme restraint for the common good in order that income may be restricted, lest excessive consumption be promoted while at the same time, company after company publish their reports and announce an increase of dividend distribution of anything from 15 to 25 per cent.

If restraint is necessary, and that case is made, and conviction is carried to the minds of the people that restraint of that character is necessary for the common good, surely it is elementary justice that if those who earn wages or salaries in the service of an enterprise must forgo any improvement in their circumstances, the least they can demand is that those who employ them will not claim the right to an expansion in their own income which is to be denied to those who work for them? The difference between good government and had government is the ability of a Government to insist that justice will be done between all elements of the community and that grave injustice to one section, however lacking in influence that section may be, will not be tolerated by a democratic Government who profess to speak and act in the interests of all.

We are now told that there is to be a sales tax. That is introduced with the interesting euphemism that the Government have decided to undertake a radical review of our taxation system. That is the newest definition I have ever heard of a decision to raise taxes steeply on everybody. It will be done under the cover of a majority recommendation of the Income Tax Commission which suggested that a sales tax of a strictly limited character might be justified if its proceeds were used to reduce the standard rate of income tax. This Government's interpretation of that is to say that may be a desirable ideal to aim at but, ad interim, they will provide the people with the sales tax and the income tax as well.

The price of wheat has effectively been reduced by the terms of the new Wheat Order, for which the Minister is responsible, and also by the degree to which Ministers have climbed into the pockets of the millers over the past three years. There was a time in this country when the Minister for Agriculture required the millers to buy the wheat and convert it into flour and to pay the farmers for it. Now, the rule seems to be that we sell the wheat abroad at £16 10s.; encourage the millers to bring in wheat from abroad, for which they have to pay, and tell the farmers that, instead of 72/6, which they used to get—or the 82/6 which Fianna Fáil used to say they were going to get—they must be glad to get 50/- and express cordial gratitude not only to the millers but to the Government as well for having given them 50/- for the wheat which Fianna Fáil told them would be worth 82/6 if they got into power.

Our Government, the inter-Party Government, provided a guaranteed price for pigs. We built into that guaranteed price a further guarantee, namely, that it could not be changed without six months' notice to the farmers. Nevertheless, Fianna Fáil have managed to get around that. They have not changed the basic price but they have changed the whole method of grading. The result of that is a substantial reduction in the guaranteed price for pigs.

As I already mentioned, even after sending 300,000 of our boys and girls to Britain, we still have 60,000 unemployed at home. Another astonishing figure brought to the attention of the House as recently as 7th instant, as reported at Column 894 of Volume 200 of the Official Report, concerns the average number of insurable persons employed in Ireland, based on the numbers of social insurance stamps sold in each year from 1960 to 1962. If you come to study that return, you will discover that whereas there were 498,000 in insurable employment on the average in 1956, there were 486,000 in the same type of employment in 1962—a reduction of 12,000 persons. We have to bear in mind, I think, that the ceiling of eligibility for stamping cards has been raised in that period and doubtless certain people have dropped out of the category of insurable persons as a result of an income rising even above the raised ceiling but one element, I think, operates to cancel out the other so that we have the astonishing fact that actually there are 12,000 fewer people in insurable employment today, on the average, than there were six years ago.

It appears to me that any Government obliged to concede these facts—I do not think this Government can deny them—ought to get out and make way for people who could do better. If I had that record, I should be ashamed to admit that I had been responsible for the Government of this country for the past six years.

I listened to the Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries seeking to defend the record of the Government. It struck me that they had some inkling of that sentiment themselves. I did not hear him but I was amused when I read the report of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance expounding on the social services and on the record of Fianna Fáil in connection with the old age pension. What is that record? I think that record ought to be on the records of the House. The record of Fianna Fáil in that regard was that the old age pensions were restricted to the 10s. a week given by the old Cumann na nGaedheal Government on 6th April, 1928. They remained at that figure until 1949, all during the 16 years in which Fianna Fáil were consistently in office — they entered office in 1932 and left it in 1948. Over the whole of that period there was no change by way of addition to the old age pensions. During the war, there was a supplement made available by way of a ticket to residents in the city of Dublin and there was a supplement made available to people who had no other means of subsistence in rural Ireland of 2s. 6d.

In January, 1949, when Deputy Norton was Minister for Social Welfare, he introduced a Bill which added 7s. 6d. a week to the basic rate of the old age pension. He gave every old age pensioner in this country 17s. 6d. a week. Not only that, but he completely revolutionised the means test in connection with the old pension code. Again in 1951, in Deputy McGilligan's last Budget, provision was made for a further alleviation of the means test in connection with old age pensions and a further increase in the pension of another 2s. 6d. was given. Remember that at that time the price of all essential foodstuffs was heavily subsidised and maintained at constant level.

Fianna Fáil came into office and introduced the 1952 Budget in which they swept away a great part of the food subsidies and to meet that, they increased the pension by 1s. 6d. per week and made some adjustment in the means test in regard to it. It stood at that figure until the inter-Party Government returned to office in 1954 and, in the Social Welfare Act of 1955, for which Deputy Corish was responsible, the old age pension was increased by half a crown for all old age pensioners. Since then, in May, 1957, it was further increased by 2s. 6d. on the occasion of the sweeping away of the remainder of the food subsidies, and there was a further increase of 2s. 6d. in August, 1959 and last year an increase of 1s., bringing the pension up to 28s. 6d. I think there has been a further upward adjustment since, but the fact is that over the years when the inter-Party Government were dealing with old age pensions, they not only increased the basic rate but radically and fundamentally changed the means test associated with the old age pension code.

The traditional challenge was thrown out by the Government Party in connection with this Vote on Account: "Show us how you will reduce it." It is a trap which is often set and which no experienced member of this House is likely to fall into as the members of the Government might hope he would, but I shall answer it in some measure because there are certain changes so obvious and easy that any competent Government would make them. Before dealing with that particular problem, however, I want to recall to the House the Taoiseach's boast that local government taxation supplies only 23 per cent. of the gross national produce here, whereas in Britain, it is 26 per cent., 24 per cent. in Belgium, 29 per cent. in the Netherlands and 29 per cent. in Italy.

Of course that is what is wrong with the Taoiseach. He entirely forgets the fundamental difference between this country and the countries he refers to. Britain is maintaining a vast defence programme. Our entire defence programme runs to £7 million or £8 million, whereas Britain's runs to something in the order of £1,000 million. If the defence element of Britain's administration were withdrawn and if there were anything approaching equality between us in our provision for social services, then the percentage of the gross national product would not be as it at present appears to be.

The Taoiseach went on to say that the public capital programme has gone far beyond the target set by the Programme for Economic Expansion. That can be understood in two senses —either they are spending much more than the programme ever envisaged or they are spending it for purposes far different from those envisaged when the Programme for Economic Expansion began. I am glad Deputy Dolan is here now because I want here to refer particularly to the extent to which the capital programme has been developed from the point of view of housing.

I know the argument can be made, and is very often made, that a greater proportion of the capital programme should be directed to remunerative investment and I want to examine the Government's record in that respect. Before doing that, however, I want to glory in the fact that in a capital programme operated by us in the Government for which we were responsible in 1948 and again in 1954, a primary charge on the programme was the provision of housing for the people, and I am convinced that from that investment we got the most enduring and precious return of any investment ever made in this country. I want, for Deputy Dolan's edification, to read out to him first the experience of the Cavan people under the inter-Party Government in regard to housing, and then what it has been under Fianna Fáil.

They got no grants.

I have great regard for Deputy Dolan because he has a penetrating and a percipient mind but he allows himself to be led by what is said over there.

I should know what the position is.

The Deputy ought to know, but I cannot persuade myself that, knowing, the Deputy has sought to misrepresent the facts, he is so transparently an honest man. I must assume therefore that he slipped up somewhere because here is the record of local authority house building in County Cavan.

Why did the Deputy stop at Cavan—because there was no money?

I will tell you the whole story. In Volume 196, No. 17, of the Official Report, the Minister for Local Government, answering a question asked by Deputy O'Reilly, said that in 1953-54, there were 78 houses built by the local authority in County Cavan; in 1954-55, the number was 99; in 1955-56 it was 86; and in 1956-57, 65. Then the blitz struck Cavan.

That is correct.

Fianna Fáil came into office.

No, but the county managers were taken to Dublin and were told to go slow.

I want to give full credit where credit is due. Certain it is that Fianna Fáil came into office in February or March of 1957.

The housing grants were stopped before then.

There was a most extraordinary coincidence because with their arrival in that year, only 36 houses were built. That could be just a coincidence.

There were no supplementary grants.

But then Fianna Fáil settled down into office and they got cracking and they were going to put all the women's husbands to work. That had the astonishing result of reducing the number of houses built in Cavan by the local authority still further, to 29; but then they made the real crack, then they really got their shoulders to the wheel, and in 1959-60 they built eight houses.

We had no supplementary grants.

Now they were firmly settled in and Fianna Fáil policy was causing the land to blossom. So, in 1960-61 what do you think happened in Cavan? They built no house at all.

It is not that amusing at all. You can ask Deputy O'Donnell in the front bench did he attend the conference of county managers.

I would not like to say a cross word to Deputy Dolan and the only word I am saying to Deputy Dolan is what the Minister for Local Government himself said here in Dáil Éireann at Volume 196, No. 17 of the Dáil Debates of 24th September, 1962. If Deputy Dolan does not like that, would he go out now and square off to Deputy Blaney and ask him what did he mean by slandering him in County Cavan?

The Cavan people know the record of the Coalition Government so far as housing is concerned.

These are the facts.

They have the facts.

There are the facts. These are the facts in respect of County Cavan and Deputy Dolan ought to be grateful to me.

Why did you run out of office?

I have sorted them out for his personal edification.

Why did you run out without paying your debts?

The truth is that we built more and more houses in Cavan in that year and when the Deputy had four years at it, he built no house at all.

You will not convince anyone in Cavan.

Are the houses there? I should like to see them.

I want to turn now from the more restricted sphere of County Cavan to the country at large.

We will remember you for generations.

I think Deputy Dolan believes a lot of the propaganda that he listens to and if I can illuminate his mind, I shall go a long way to illuminating——

The minds of those who voted for him.

I will put it that way. I think Deputy Dolan would be interested. He is interested in housing and finance and is haunted by the recollection that there was not money available to pay for housing in this country at some stage. Now I want to illuminate him further about urban conditions, the city of Dublin. In Dublin, the Dublin Corporation are the authority for providing housing and they provide houses and flats and they call them all dwellings. In 1950-51, the Dublin Corporation provided 2,588 new dwellings; in 1951-52, 1,982; in 1952-53, 2,200; in 1953-54, 1,353; in 1954-55, 1,922; in 1955-56, 1,311; in 1956-57, 1,564.

Of course, the people were leaving the country. The houses were vacant then.

A most extraordinary coincidence took place. Fianna Fáil came into office. You would imagine, if it only happened in Cavan, that it was just some kind of queer misfortune that overtook Cavan.

That is correct. It could happen in Cavan.

But, if you turn to the city of Dublin, you find where there were 1,564 dwellings built in 1956-57 and in 1957-58, there were 1,021 built.

How many had the corporation on their hands that they could not get rid of?

Wait until I tell you. The next year, when Fianna Fáil got comfortably settled down, there were 460 built.

Yes, because there were vacancies in the city. Face the facts.

The year after that they made a great effort and built 505; the year after that they built 277 and in the year after, for 11 months only, they built 320. Now Deputy Dolan says: "Who wanted the houses"?

That is right.

I wish Deputy Dolan would go down to the City Hall steps and see his neighbours in this city at the present time craving for houses.

Yes. The times have changed now.

I had a letter recently from a woman who was living in a condemned room, with water coming through the roof. She went looking for a house and was told that because she had not four children living with her, she would not even be put on the list. Now Deputy Dolan says the people in Dublin do not want houses but that is not what I am told. I am told the people in Dublin very badly want houses at the present time and cannot get them.

Because the people are content to stay here and to come back here.

The fact is that 300,000 people have gone. That is the figure recorded by the census. The fact is that the London County Council says that for the first time in the history of Great Britain since Boadicea was prancing around in blue paint five per cent. of the entire population of the city of London were born in Ireland. Fianna Fáil have that infinite capacity for persuading themselves that something is true because they want to believe that it is true. Facts are anathema to them but I do not despair. I shall keep at this laborious task of educating Deputy Dolan, cost what it may. I sympathise with him. I grieve for him when I think of him worrying that there was a time when the Government of this country could not pay their way, could not pay the bills.

Correct. The people gave you your answer, anyhow.

In 1949-50, the amount of money actually spent on building houses was £9,557,000.

You spent £5 million in one night of borrowed money.

In 1950-51, there was £10,417,000 spent on housing; in 1951-52, there was £11,400,000 spent on housing. Fianna Fáil were in office in 1951-52 but, remember, we are always told that you cannot get housing going without two or three years' preparation, so that, if they spent that money, those houses must have been prepared by us. But I do not blame them—I think they were right to spend the money on housing. Wait until you hear the end of the story. In 1952-53, there was £10,600,000 spent on houses. Now come the years about which Deputy Dolan has nightmares and worries: In 1953-54, on housing we spent £9,276,000; in 1954-55, £7,619,000; in 1955-56, £6,993,000; in 1956-57, £7,064,000.

That was after the conference.

Now this strange coincidence happened not only in Cavan and the city of Dublin but in the country at large: Fianna Fáil came into office and in 1957-58 we spent £4,456,000 on housing. It dropped by nearly 50 per cent. Then they settled down comfortably in office and in 1958-59, they spent £3,493,000. Then, having dispatched the first half of the 300,000 to Great Britain, they made up their minds that it was not so urgent to provide work in the building industry and in 1959-60, expenditure was £3,041,000.

No supplementary grants?

That is the total expenditure on local authority housing and private enterprise housing built with the aid of grants from the Government. All I want to do is to ease the mind of Deputy Dolan who thinks there was a period when money restrictions were put on house-building. I say most deliberately to the economists and financiers that I believe that part of our capital investment programme pays the richest dividends of any part because it is an enduring and an indispensable part of the infrastructure of our society, agricultural and industrial. My only regret is that there has not been more money provided effectively to extend the benefit of that house-building programme for the advantage of the small farmers so that they also could participate in the blessing of a decent home.

We are still paying your debts in that respect.

If you are paying debts incurred through housing the people of the country, I glory in that liability.

Yes, but it was handed to us.

(Interruptions)

I want to refer to other aspects of the public capital programme. This programme has gone far beyond the target set by the Programme for Economic Expansion, the Taoiseach said. I think a public capital programme is a most excellent thing. I affirm that where it is decided to improve the people's housing conditions, it can be a thousand times justified. Where it is invested in the improvement of the land and the output of the agricultural industry, it is eminently worthwhile but where we make large public investments in industrial enterprises, we have a duty to ask ourselves whether these enterprises are meeting the basic minimum charges for their survival. I am not prepared to say it should be regarded as a sine qua non that they should make profits in the accepted commercial sense of the term but there is no use in saying that, as the national debt has now passed the £500 million mark, we should count our assets against it unless we look at the quality of the assets. If a great part of those assets are State industrial undertakings, they are not at least meeting their annual interest charges and a reasonable provision for depreciation from their income.

I have noticed recently, particularly on the lips of the Minister for Transport and Power, a new euphemism in dealing with the results of State companies. We no longer hear reference to profit or loss but we are told that a State company has "an operating surplus". When you examine all the facts, you discover that that is a polite way of saying that the State company is annually losing anything between £500,000 and £2 million. Although that is its financial performance, it is faithfully recorded on the assets side of the national balance sheet to be set against the outstanding national debt. When I look at the investments which have been made, Dundalk Engineering Works, Córas Iompair Éireann, Aer Línte and Irish Shipping, can it be said that any one of them is laying aside a reasonable provision for the depreciation of its machinery or its equipment and paying the Government a sum adequate to meet the interest on the capital which the Government put into it? If not, we should face the fact that, unless and until they do, they cannot legitimately be described as assets in the national balance sheet.

You can be perfectly justified in the initial stage of a new enterprise in saying we should accept the fact that it will not be able to meet these charges but unless ultimately we propose to see it earning that minimum return, we should cease to describe it as an asset to be set against the liability of our national debt. If we are to take a sound, realistic view of the national balance sheet, the sooner we turn our minds to that question the better it will be for us all.

When I consider the proposals contained in the Book of Estimates, I listen with amusement to the traditional yell from Government benches which has been taken up recently with peculiar fervour by the Minister for Justice who wanted to know what proposals we have for the reduction of these Estimates. I remind the Minister and his colleagues that they are in receipt of Ministerial salaries; they constitute the Government and it is their duty to bring forward proposals for taxation and expenditure. They are sustained, as they have every right to be, by a highly-paid and highly-skilled Civil Service. They are sustained and advised by a highly-skilled board of Revenue Commissioners and anybody who has any experience of Government knows perfectly well that to give a reasoned and rational programme of suggestions in regard to a substantial reduction of the Estimates requires all that machinery available to the Government.

But there are certain obvious remedies that could be taken. One of the outstanding features of the debate on this Book of Estimates—and I believe this Book of Estimates has been deliberately framed for that purpose— is the emphasis laid by the Taoiseach and in the Minister's speech read for him by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, on the increased cost of civil servants' salaries. The most popular cry any politician can raise down the country is to wallop the civil servants, hold them up to public odium and describe them as lazy so-and-sos not worth their salt. Here, it is presented in the way that it is paying these fellows that constitutes a major part of the increased burden a reluctant Government are obliged to throw on to the people.

The fact as is known to us who have worked in Government positions is that this country is greatly blessed in its civil servants. We probably have too many of them and nobody but a fool will suggest that in so large a labour force, there are not some duds. It is also true, and I am proud of it, that the tradition of the Civil Service is that you would want to be a very intractable dud to be sacked. That is not a bad rule. If a fellow is not much good, he reaches a certain level and there he sticks. He wants to be very bad indeed before he is kicked out and deprived of his pension. I will stand over that and defend it anywhere. If some of the high-powered labour executives in the world would take a lesson in labour relations from the methods ordinarily used by the Civil Service, you might have less unofficial strikes and upheavals in the industrial enterprises of this country and, more especially, of Great Britain.

But all that having been said, I want to suggest to the House that one obvious place where something can be done to reduce the cost of the Civil Service is to seek to perform in the Civil Service organisation the appropriate operation of automation that is proceeding in all other branches of human activity involving the employment of large numbers of men. The plain truth is that in the age in which we live personal service is becoming the most expensive commodity money can buy. Signs on it, we see that in the houses of Ireland, where, when we were children, every house had a girl in it to help the woman of the house, not one in ten has it now because personal service has become too dear.

When we come to the Civil Service, we have a vast army of men and women who must maintain some kind of standard of living. That standard of living demands a certain minimal rate of salary. If they do not get it, they cannot maintain the exterior or standard expected of public servants in the State. The result is that, if you multiply their numbers indefinitely, the bill must inevitably continue to grow. I went to a factory in Germany. On one side of the yard in that factory, there was a building with about 300 men producing steel pipes. On the other side of the yard, there was an identical factory producing the identical pipes, and producing them at a higher rate per hour than the first one to which I had gone. But in the second factory the whole place was operated by 14 men in white coats.

You cannot identify precisely the operations of civil servants with the operations of industrial workers making steel pipes. There is a world of difference. But I know of my own personal experience that when I was Minister for Agriculture we had one of the most distinguished public servants as accountant to the Department of Agriculture. I think it is true to say that he was probably the only man in the world who knew all the ins and outs of the vast accounting forest involved in the hundreds of schemes operated by the Department of Agriculture. We used sometimes to joke with our accountant and pray for his preservation because we used to say: "If you went, who would ever find his way through this forest of accounts you get through?" Then, with the consent of the Minister for Finance, I asked a firm to come in and examine the system of accounting and a variety of other systems being operated by the Department of Agriculture. I remember that distinguished accountant saying to me when that operation was performed: "Well, Minister, before you got these fellows in, it was probably true to say no other man in Ireland was able to find his way through this accounting system. Now that they are finished, however, I am probably the only man in Ireland who cannot find his way through this system, because it is operated by girls working on machines and it all rolls off without apparently the intervention of skilled personnel at all."

I am perfectly certain that the introduction of modern business consultants into Government Departments could result in very substantial reduction in the number of what used to be called in my time the clerical grades— the multitude of innumerable minor civil servants who conduct a large part of their operations almost with a quill pen. If you could automate, as I am convinced you could, a vast area of work at present employing a multitude of minor servants for filing, setting out returns, and so on, a very substantial reduction could be made in the Civil Service. But there is undoubtedly within the Civil Service a strong conservative tendency to resist radical changes of that kind and to press the view that business consultants may be all right for business houses and for industrial operations, but they do not understand Civil Service administration.

There is an element of truth in that representation, but it is not a valid truth. Most Governments in the world have availed extensively of qualified business consultants in the past ten years with very substantial reductions for the benefit of the taxpayer. I am convinced it could be done here also.

I want to express my suggestions in answer to the Minister for Justice. I shall tell him one way we could make a reduction in that Book of Estimates. Stop selling the millable wheat you have on hands to foreigners at £16 10s. a ton while you are buying Russian pollard at £22. There are ships coming into the port of Dublin, or were until recently, unloading Russian pollard at £22 per ton f.o.q. The same ships are going out with Irish wheat consigned to sell f.o.q. Liverpool at £16 10s. a ton. Remember, for every ton of wheat going out, there is provision in that Book of Estimates. It is held out to the country as part of the subsidisation of the agricultural industry. Of course, it is part of the subsidisation of the incompetence of those who buy Russian pollard at £22 a ton and sell Irish wheat to Great Britain at £16 10s. per ton.

There are further economies you could make. I am convinced, however, that that economy alone would yield the Exchequer £500,000 in this year. Of course, when we get to the stage of spending £200 million while you click your fingers, £500,000 seems quite a trifling thing. But if anyone should give me £500,000, I should retire and live in luxury and guarantee that two or three succeeding generations would have the opportunity of doing the same thing. I am convinced that there could be an immense saving effected in that Book of Estimates if the Minister for Agriculture really interested himself in the work he is supposed to do. But the present Minister for Agriculture regards it as a sovereign remedy for every problem with which he is confronted to set up a board and say: "Let them settle it." If they do not settle it, it never gets settled.

At present we are paying up to 3/-a lb. to certain foreign markets to eat our butter. I believe if the creamery industry were given real encouragement by rationalising it and by providing for the farmers who operate it a bonus on milk of, say, 2d. per gallon, we could so diversify the output of the creamery industry as practically to abolish the exportable surplus of butter. I do not say that that could be done overnight but if we could diversify effectively into cheese, dried milk and condensed milk, there is existing in the world today, I am quite satisfied, a veritable unlimited market for dried milk of the required standard fit for consumption and reconversion into liquid milk in tropical countries. The Dutch are in it on a gargantuan scale; the Swiss are in it on a gargantuan scale; and the Danes are in it on a very large scale; but the trouble is they are all there already, the Dutch through, I think, Unilever with all its vast resources and the Swiss, I think, through Nestles. The trouble is that we have no organisation in the tropics, which of course is an extremely difficult thing to build, for the reason that unless you have the stuff, you cannot build the sales organisation and if you accumulate the stuff before you have the sales organisation, you cannot sell the stuff.

The only solution, the only way I have ever discovered of getting out of that dilemma, is to make effective contact with a sales organisation which would put us in the picture. I have no doubt that with suitable inducements and adequate help, financial and otherwise, the dairy industry could be made far less a burden on the taxpayer than it is at present.

I have not the slightest doubt that if the Minister for Agriculture did not prefer to spend his life in perennial hibernation, a revolution could be inaugurated in the pig industry. The plain truth at present is that we are operating thousands of small units with farmers trying to breed pigs, feed them, rear them and finish them and bring them to the factories. I do not think that system will work any more. The conditions under which we have to sell bacon on the international markets are so stringent that a very high degree of standardisation of the finished article must be maintained if we are to survive.

We could start in this way to realise that if we established through cooperative societies, existing societies or new ones, pig factories and made an effective drive to eliminate, as could easily be done, the unsuitable type of sow in the hands of any small farmer at present and also took precautions to provide suitable boars, because in pig breeding the boar and the sow are of equal value, and to undertake that the pigs produced in a centre would be taken at 2/- a lb, say, at 10 weeks old — they are scientifically housed, fed and finished under a strictly controlled rationing system of feeding and under strictly controlled temperature conditions and housing conditions—I believe you could eliminate 60 per cent. of the fat bacon at present which is undoubtedly creating a problem of marketing and which the curers say is the responsibility of the producers and as a result of which the average price being paid for pigs has been very materially cut down.

If we could advance on those lines, I am perfectly satisfied that a very large part of the charge that comes in course of payment on these Estimates for bacon exports could be removed. I believe we could sell more pigs and bacon in the markets of the world in competition with the Danes and probably realising a very much better price than the Danes at present are able to get.

If I did not have belief and confidence in the political institutions of this country, I would be very much depressed because I believe that this country is at present in the hands of a gambler. I believe the Taoiseach is a man who takes chances and if the chances do not come off, he just does not know where to go. I think he is at present floundering in the post-Brussels confusion. He has asked for an interview with the British Prime Minister and he is going over next week or so with the Minister for External Affairs, to see, like Mr. Micawber, if something will turn up. I hope it will. I read with interest that representatives of the Danish Government are now in London and their main purpose is to get for Denmark the advantages we secured for Ireland in 1948. They may get them and if they get them, it would be gravely to our detriment. I only hope that the Taoiseach and the Minister for External Affairs may have fruitful and beneficial conversations with their opposite numbers in Great Britain.

Hope is one thing, belief is quite another. I have said that unless I had full confidence in the political institutions of this country, I would be a profound pessimist about the future of Ireland but it is because I am convinced that the people of Ireland, unlike the peoples of some great countries in Europe, have an alternative to the present Government that I am full of hope and confidence in the future of this country. The Fine Gael Party is, in this country, the available alternative to the existing Government and the only available alternative.

The Coalition has gone.

This Party is the only Party with any prospect of forming an alternative Government at this time. This Party is prepared to undertake that job. This Party is under no illusions about the problems that have been created for them by the adverse trade balance of £100 million; by the national debt of £500 million; by the expenditure envisaged of over £200 million; by the rates gone mad; by the emigrants gone abroad; by the unemployed living at home; by the cost of living at its unprecedented level. So long as our people are free to put out the Government responsible for those things and give authority to an alternative Government, I am optimistic about the future of this country and I believe we could pull it around.

I propose to approach this Vote on Account realistically. One must immediately consider the question that is aggravating the minds of the general public, that is, what, if any, policy have the Government got. I am not going to be as charitable as my leader in my description of the Taoiseach's dilemma. I think the Taoiseach rode a rather shabby ass in the EEC negotiations and that he fell heavily, not only in the negotiations but in the confidence of the Irish people. I remember, coldly, calmly and deliberately challenging the Taoiseach some 12 months ago on the issue of our entry into EEC. I remember telling him that not only would we not get in but that Britain would not get in either. With his usual truculence, and the Taoiseach grows more truculent when he is in the wrong, he said that the Deputy knows everything and the Taoiseach knows nothing. He did not realise how prophetic his words were. It has been borne out conclusively, whoever the Government's advisers were or whoever their negotiators were, that they did not have a clue, and the negotiations ended in disaster.

We must ask ourselves now whither are we going. We seem in this country to have drifted away from commonsense. We are handing everything over to alleged experts, transferring consideration of matters to boards and commissions, creating further confusion where simplicity of approach and direct action would give the impetus so badly required in order to revitalise our economy. It is as plain as a pikestaff, as clear on the economic horizon as are the undulating hills throughout the country, that the real wealth and the real strength of our economy must come from the land, from those who are reared on it and from that which is grown on it. If the present squandermania in national expenditure continues, the only place we will find any real economic buoyancy will be in increased productivity on the land and in the numbers who work on the land.

What are we doing? We have a tired Government, bankrupt of thought and bankrupt of constructive effort. We have a Government in the doldrums. We have a Government doing virtually nothing except increasing the bill the taxpayer must meet every year. There is no increase in output to justify the increased expenditure. It is not good policy to criticise expenditure merely because it is expenditure. My criticism is directed to the ineffectiveness of the expenditure. It should be our ambition to improve our land, to grow ten blades of grass where one grows now. It should be our ambition to improve our livestock. There is a certain unreality on the part of those who talk about markets in far-flung regions of the world. We have a market readily available to us, one of the finest markets in the world, a market that we are not capable of supplying with agricultural produce for two consecutive weeks in the year. Certain semi-State institutions are exploring marketing. I cannot understand why there is no research into developing and extending the markets with which our immediate neighbour provides us.

We will have to increase our agricultural production. We seem to be in an era of experts. There are experts to advise on all facets of development. I say, deliberately, and with malice, that most of these alleged experts are just old cods. They cod each other with statistics. I represent a mixed farming constituency and I and my constituents know that we can produce the pig, the sheep and the calf. We know we can help, if there is a drive to expand production. Deputy Dillon made a trenchant argument in support of investment of capital in housing. There is no investment more certain of a worthwile return than investment in the land, to develop and improve the land, the stock it carries and the crops it grows.

There is only one way in which production can be increased. It will not be increased by misconceived commissions of inquiry. It will not be increased with the help of so-called experts. It can only be increased by the sweat and toil of those who work it as a result of the facilities given them to develop and improve the land. Basically, that calls for a greater use of fertiliser to put the land in good heart. It calls for an abundant supply of grass seed, lime, artificials to put the land into top quality. We must stop talking and get down now to working.

We must find out what our progeny testing has to offer in our agricultural effort. We know we must have a leaner type of beef for the export trade; we know we must turn away from the heavy York type of sow; we know we want a leaner, hardier type of sheep. Why do we not go about getting them instead of talking about them? That is my burden of complaint against this Government. This attack can be levelled in a general way against the type of ineptness that is coming in Government thought because of the fact that they have never got down to the regional and national planning of our progress; because we have some people who will not realise that a necessary adjunct to the very desirable development of our agriculture is co-operation between all sections of the community in the development of the basic industry of the country, which is agriculture.

We would be far better served if, instead of building this artificial bias between city and country, between the rural areas and the urban areas, if instead of having experts to advise and misdirect us, we had some proper way of distributing the various adjuncts needed by the land throughout this country to produce what I believe it can produce, four and five times what it is producing now. It is time we realised that the best use to which the Irish farmer can put his land is the raising of the necessary cereal and fodder crops that will give him the necessary home ration and home balance to feed his stocks.

There was one doctrine preached by Deputy Dillon when he was Minister for Agriculture which always seemed to me to be the epitome of reality, that is, that there is no better way in which the small farmer of Ireland can develop his economy than to walk his stock off his land, fed by his own produce or by locally-produced cereals and root crops. Whether it is the egg, the fowl, the bacon, the sheep, the calf or the springer, once you have the small farmer geared up, having available to him locally at reasonable prices the necessary balance to feed his stock and the necessary market, then you have an assured facet of agricultural production that cannot be broken.

If you had, contemporaneously with that, proper research into the British market, I have no hesitation in saying that we could sell with advantage to the Irish farmer four to five times as much as we are now selling and we could educate the Irish farmer into a system of operating his holding on a profit basis and that profit would be on the strength of his output rather than on a restricted output looking for high prices. You want co-operation between Irish farmers, Irish farming organisations, the various creamery organisations and the various parish organisations for the purpose of getting production on the land stepped up to the extent where the farmer will know what his private ratio of profit will be and where every additional item of production will have a reasonable market so that the farmer's price in return for his labour will be reasonable.

Let us consider what would happen to our economy generally if we could get this long called for increase in agricultural production. It would mean a tremendous expansion in exports, a tremendous drive to stabilise the present fantastic imbalance of payments, an increased standard of living for every farmer in Ireland and the increased impetus to the economy that increased incomes would allow in improvements in the farmers' homes and implements. It would mean that every industry that is really germane to agriculture, or complementary to it, would be enabled to exist, expand and improve its own conditions.

We have to get away for all time from this concept of assembly industries. Industry cannot be basically sound or properly built unless we can control the price of the raw material going into our factories. When we are trying to build an industry behind a declining tariff wall against the country of origin of the raw material, we are only continuing to create for ourselves the economic headaches that all tariff-protected industries cause. I do not want to see bias growing between industry and agriculture. Instead, I want to see a unity and a fusion growing up between them. I am convinced, no matter what our alleged economists and experts say, that the foundation of our Irish economy will always, in the last analysis, be the Irish farmer, the Irish farm labourer and the Irish farmer's family who give their time and labour to the land of Ireland. To them only can the future of our economy be committed.

I want to say that I would not have the least hesitation in helping the Government to secure this fabulous expenditure if I could see that such expenditure was directed to an investment in Irish agriculture that would show the expansion necessary if we are to build our economy, instead of the present prolific and fantastic squandermania of a Government bankrupt of any real economic thinking. There has been no overall plan. There has been too much government by expediency, too much of trying to put a brick in one corner of the wall to stem the flood and before that is properly repaired, there is a breach in the economy somewhere else. Then there was the ludicrous situation that arose of a penny on and a penny off milk, typical of a Government caught in the swirls of their own confusion.

We could with tremendous hope build not even a five-year plan but a four-year plan and put at the disposal of the Irish farmer the various services, soil testing units, the advisory services, the services of the Agricultural Institute itself, the progeny testing centres and so on, The farmer could be given an indication of what fertilisers are necessary to improve the quality of his grassland, what fertilisers are needed to bring his tillage land into greater production and what changes in progeny lines he needs. With the extension of artificial insemination, it should be possible over a period of four years to step up not only the number of animals in the nation's husbandry but the quality and the type, and to increase in that period twofold, if not threefold, the number of stock on the land. Fortunately, despite the severity of the weather in January and February this year, generally speaking, our climate is sufficiently mild to allow the fertilisation of the land to improve it year after year over a period of four or five years before the process has to be started again.

Investment in the land of Ireland will give a tremendous return. There has been enough nonsense talked about agriculture. If this Government want to redeem themselves, it is time they stopped talking about agricultural production and got the fertiliser on to the land, got the improved stock on to the land and got the people working on the land because every time they have been called upon, they have always rallied to the call. I am convinced that if this type of production is adopted, there will be an upsurge of sales output that will stagger even this Government. Instead of chasing fictitious markets, we should get down to the job of fighting our way into the market that can be expanded and expanded over the years because it would take no less than 20 times our present agricultural output to satisfy the market immediately available to us. The conditions here are favourable to the production of quality beef, mutton and pork and also good quality fowl that would hold its place in the British market in competition with the products of any part of the world.

What the farmer wants above all is a proper organisation for the distribution of fertiliser to his land. It is necessary for the Government to extend to artificial fertiliser the type of subsidy and distribution that is available under the lime scheme. It is imperative that the small farmer in the more isolated parts of the country be given these benefits at the same price as that at which they are available to his more fortunate neighbour. It is the small farmer who continues to labour under difficulties in the more remote areas who can improve our store cattle trade because it is from there will come the calf that ultimately finds its way to the rich plains of the midlands.

There is no doubt also that the mainstay of the pig industry has always been the cottier and the low valuation farmer, and while I do not subscribe completely to the belief that pig rearing should be on a co-operative basis, I certainly do believe that the type of housing and the type of sow and boar necessary for the production of high-class pigs should be available to the small farmer and the cottier at a price within his capacity to pay and at a price that will encourage him to improve and increase his production.

There is too much lipservice to those unrewarded and hardworking strata of our people. We hear the Minister for Lands saying the small farmer's income has improved by 20 per cent. and in the same breath, telling the small farmer that the investor in the stock exchange had a wonderful time last year. It is poor consolation to the small farmer, whose increase in income is not considered in conjunction with increased costs of production, to know that those who dabble in stocks and shares can get 100 per cent or more return on their money.

I should like him to wander down to the fastnesses of Berehaven or into the wilder fastnesses of Muintir Veara to see how many people there have time to dilly-dally on the stock exchange. He should listen for a moment to their complaints about this new and esoteric system of grading invented by the Government to ensure that whatever profit might at one time be available to the cottier pig rearer is now dissipated. Very often he now ends up, after selling a litter of bonhams to the factory, without any recompense to himself. Frequently he ends up deeper in debt to the man supplying the pig feed, without any subsidy to the transport costs. Let the Minister for Lands, before he starts talking about increased income for the small farmer, do a little bit of that type of research and stop his cod pronouncements which bring credit neither to himself nor to the inept Government of which he is a member.

This Vote on Account gives us an opportunity to go wider than the agricultural field. I am interested to see the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands here. He is charged with the responsibility for Irish fishing and its development. I see he has again fallen into the trap of looking for some foreign expert. This seems to be an amazing country. Everybody can tell us what to do, except our own. I am surprised you have not sent off for a few foreign experts to tell you how to run the Government because that is the one thing at which you are conspicuously inept. Having gone to the expense and trouble of combing the commercial lanes of our State for a director of An Bord Iascaigh Mhara, we have to go off to foreign salt sea areas to find somebody to advise us.

There is no such person.

The newspaper to-day said——

I am not responsible for what is in the Irish Independent.

The Parliamentary Secretary is responsible for An Bord Iascaigh Mhara. I have not seen any responsible denouncement of what has happened. I am prepared to lay an odd few shillings that there will be a fellow there, speaking a language the Irish do not understand, to do that job. You talk about some of these nonsensical industries: you have set up commissions to deal with their resettlement and to gear them up for entering into the EEC—that "ould cod". It would be to the advantage of the country if you got down to trying to get an industry under way to produce from the sea around Ireland what the Belgians, Norwegians, French, Dutch and Spanish are taking home as the basis of their expanding productions from their canneries, smoke rooms and everywhere else. We should endeavour to get a real effort there. There is a potential for industry for which we have the raw material.

If the Parliamentary Secretary will listen for a moment to me, I suggest the basic thing he must do is to put the fishing industry on a full-time basis. I am with him in this—that the time has come, apart from the basic economics upon which the industry can be established, to avoid being enmeshed in a sea of sentimentality about a way of life that no longer exists.

The Deputy knows to whom he should tell that. He should tell it to Deputy Dillon.

I am not afraid of saying it in public. I said it when Deputy Dillon was in office, as the Parliamentary Secretary would know if he had gone to the trouble to refresh his memory on the amount of effort I have put into persuading Governments to do something about fishing.

Well said.

I come now to another pet hobby of mine. It concerns the alleged educational system of our country. It is fair to say at this stage, particularly when we have the experience of our children swotting and working grossly overtime for the various public examinations due in a couple of months' time, that our system of education needs to be revised. I am amazed at the curriculum of to-day which my 17-year-old son has to face compared with the curriculum I faced myself some 30 odd years ago. I wonder where the atrophy and the lack of conception of development has set into our educational system. We seem to be concentrating on teaching our children, in the main, irrelevancies and antiquities which have as little to do with the struggle and strain for life and existence in our economic circumstances to-day as has the old story about the man in the moon.

No effort is being made by our educational system to keep our young people abreast of what is happening in a very volatile and changing world. It may be all very well to know the contents of De Senectute by Cicero, to know all that took place in the Roman Forum and in ancient Greece but in my view it is more important for the modern child to be informed on the scientific and social developments which are taking place to-day. That is very important and should be stressed rather than forcing a young person to learn by heart the contents of Greek and Latin textbooks. It is more important to be educated in a system which will bring the student up to date in regard to the happenings of the world. That, in turn, would enable him and his co-students to have a forum of discussion frequently in their classes to consider, among other things, even the politics of their country.

I am appalled—and I say this in a responsible way to the alleged educators of this country—at how conservative and unrealistic much of the present approach is to what the child should learn to-day. It is hard enough for a child to make his way in our economy these times. With the limited opportunity now available to him, it is deliberately unfair to the child not to concentrate his mind on conditions as they are to-day—on social development as it is to-day and on the changes taking place to-day—and to go back into the realms of antiquity, for what reason I do not know. However, I do know, and I am saying it with deliberation in this House, that the modern Irish boy or girl knows far less about the manner and the means by which this State came into operation, and the difficulties and the effort and the sacrifice that went into its foundation, than he or she knows about the Wars of the Roses, the Seven Years War, the Thirty Years War and all the other wars that have nothing at all to do with it.

Our educational system must wake up and realise that while it is necessary to give certain facts in relation to the geographical situation of places all over the world and the historical backgrounds of certain ideologies, in the main, the world has gone through so many vicissitudes of change in this century alone that if we could bring to the modern child an awareness of the changing face of the world today.

Instead of trying to make him learn about conditions which existed thousands of years ago, we would be doing a practical service to our own people. It seems ridiculous to me that with all this progress towards a five-day week and better general conditions for workers, we should still impose on our children a six hour day for six days a week, and on top of that anything from two to five hours' homework each night, homework which, in the main, consists of revision of something that has been read out to them from a textbook.

Another big problem in this country is the Army. I am absolutely staggered to see the atrophy and the stultification of the Army through lack of recruits. Our main job here is to instil enthusiasm into our youth for Army careers. This of course is tied up with getting the monotony out of Army service and getting the anomalies out of the pay system. We must also get rid of the bourgeois kind of thinking and the grandiose feeling about one of the finest elements of the State services, its soldiery.

If we were to take a Gallup poll of the feelings of the people or if the Government sent out their supposed economic experts among them, I feel confident we would quickly find that the public do not see what value they are getting for this phenomenal expenditure the Government contemplate. I remember listening here to the wails of "The Chief" when he said the limit of taxation had been reached. Then the new Taoiseach came in with his perennial gambler's courage and sidetracked that particular dogma so that now, under the guise of reviewing the tax structure, he has found the questionable gambit of a purchase or sales tax, call it which you will.

They will not bring this new tax into being most probably until we are well into the summer recess, the excuse being that the methods of extraction have not yet been finally decided on. Of course the bailitheóirí have not yet been geared up for the gathering. There is no doubt that what we once looked upon in this House as a sort of tax which might be aimed at spreading the taxation load over a greater number of the community is to become a system through which a heavier load of taxation will spread to more and more members of the already heavily taxed community. It will not be a system which will alleviate the burden of those who have been paying the greatest proportion of taxation over the years. Of course Fianna Fáil pundits will say: "You need not buy these things," but I am prepared to forecast that the range of goods which will become affected will be such that the workers will bear the greatest impact and that every other section of the community will be affected as well, so that there will be a spiralling upwards of the amount of taxation all will have to pay.

All this comes at a time when it is suggested there should be a pay pause. It is not a pay pause we want. What we want is to make the money the worker is earning worth something. If the Government are instrumental through this new tax in pushing up costs still further, they can only expect the workers to seek further increases to meet the spiral. The answer we all want—and I feel sure my colleagues in the Labour Party agree fully with me—is to increase the buying capacity of the workers' earnings, to make his money real in terms of what he can buy.

There is no doubt that one of the most serious impacts on our economy is the growth of the Civil Service. I am prepared to concede that there may be most estimable people in the Civil Service but I am not prepared to concede they should be so numerous. In my experience of 15 years in public life, there has been an increase of 4,500 in the Civil Service. No matter how you look at that, the impact on the economy is tremendous and whether we like it or not, this expenditure is what the experts describe as unproductive.

There is no doubt that far from being in any way productive, the Irish Civil Service has succeeded in adopting for itself a policy of increasing its membership. Relatively simple jobs have, in my own experience, become complicated to the extent that one person must have three assistants and each assistant must have a filing clerk and the filing clerk must have somebody who roots in some subterranean passage under the offices. Apart from a vast accumulation of wastepaper, this all means a spiralling up in the number of civil servants we have to pay. I agree with the principle that public servants should be paid and should be paid well but the time has come when we have to face the problem of cutting down the number of public servants and substituting a less cumbrous system than the one we now have of doing everything in triplicate or quadruplicate.

A system must be evolved whereby more money will go into various schemes, particularly in relation to the land, drainage and agriculture, and less into administrative costs. I want to see a greater use of fertilisers, improved grass seed, improved drains, increased cereal growth and an improvement in the quality and price of livestock. These objectives can be achieved only when there is less unproductive expenditure and more money going into production. I want to see the day when the farm labourer or the farmer's son working on the land will have as gainful employment as can be found in any factory, and will get a worthwhile return for his labour and earn for himself the comforts and self-respect which he deserves as the primary contributor to our economy.

There are certain sections of the community who have been very shabbily treated in the circumstances of the spiralling cost of living and depreciation of money values. Effective economies could be made in the Book of Estimates and the money could be diverted to the improvement of the social welfare classes. We must have very little conscience in this House, very little concept of the difficulties experienced by these people, if we think that, even with the help charitable organisations may give them, the old age pensioners or the widows and orphans have more than a bare subsistence level at the present rate of social welfare payments. One would have very much less to say in criticism of the ineptitude and atrophy of the Government if they had the common decency to face up to the responsibility they have to these classes of people who are unable to help themselves.

Reference was made during the course of the debate to the imbalance of trade and to the rapidly rising deficit in trade. That deficit does not surprise me in view of the amount and range of imports that are allowed by the Government, in many cases of goods in competition with home produced goods, when there is no necessity for import concessions. I have always been able to boast and I still boast that I never wear clothing or shoes that are not made in Ireland. The range and quality of clothing and shoes manufactured in Ireland are of such fine quality that the Government, if they want to tax luxury goods, should tax this type of imports that are in competition with home production. Then the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands might not have to blush for the embarrassment of his colleague, Deputy Corry, in not being able to get a pair of Irish-made socks in Grafton Street.

This Government have a weakness for State companies. I dealt extensively with this matter on the Estimate for Transport and Power but I cannot get away from it completely tonight because there is a very fair pattern of the unrealistic thinking of the Government in the development of these companies. There is nobody who would concede more readily than I that developments such as Aerlinte, Aer Lingus, Irish Shipping, and Bord na Móna were very valuable but the day must come when these enterprises must be asked to stand on their own feet. I do not go as far as my leader in this matter. I am prepared to agree that we should amortise the capital investment, forgive all interest owed up to now, but, when you consider the £10 million and £12 million invested in Aer Lingus, the millions invested in Irish Shipping and the fact that they have never even paid an interest charge and that their losses are mounting, the time has come to ask ourselves if we are thinking rationally at all.

There are rumours about, whether they are true or not, that certain traffic to England may be discontinued. I said here on the Estimate for Transport and Power, and I repeat, that if instead of building the leviathans to put into the pool of charter ships of the world, Irish Shipping had concentrated on the type of ships that might have been suitable for our export trade, particularly the cross-Channel cattle trade, we would not be at the mercy of the whim or caprice of any outside company in relation to cross-Channel passenger traffic or freight.

It will make very interesting reading when we get the Irish Shipping report next year as to how steeply the losses rose when ships all over the world were laid up and a very large number of our leviathans were idle and were costing Irish Shipping a tremendous price for maintenance.

We have reached the point of no return. Inept government, bankruptcy of policy, atrophy of age must clear the way for new ideas. There must be a proper stimulus applied to our agricultural industry and a properly planned industrial arm. We want to see rapid development of agricultural production. We want to see more native timber used in the various timber industries. We want a practical and realistic approach to the development of the huge potential of Irish fishing. We want to see the type of industry here for which we can produce the raw material and we want to see built up side by side and in an atmosphere of co-operation and understanding with one another, industry, commerce and agriculture. Above all, we want to see an effort to control prices of essential commodities to the people. We want a Government prepared to view more sympathetically the needs of the people in the social welfare group and also the very urgent needs of many of our older retired State pensioners and pensioners from the Garda and the Army who did so much to establish this nation.

We want a Government prepared to spend money on the progress and advancement of the people, prepared to re-invest the people's money in their lands and institutions, prepared to think on the basis of expanding our economy to absorb and maintain more people. We want to get away from squandermania, from the idea of the international tourist for whom we are building huge monuments of glass and stone and we want a realisation that the best type of tourist who brings most money to the country is found in the small guesthouse and hotel, our own people coming home for the holidays or good-class English people who like Ireland as it is. We know that if Irish tourism depended on the Americans, it would very soon quickly decay and it is time we realised the value of the guesthouse or small hotel at the seaside resort in the west, the south, or the east, in the midland lake country or by the rivers that offer the type of fishing that our own people and English visitors enjoy. These are the areas that attract the tourists who spend money, and the sooner we realise that, the better for ourselves. The transatlantic plane and luxury hotel are not the normal habitat of our people, the people for whom the Government have a duty to work, the people who in the difficulties of the time sent forth their sons and daughters who loyally send back the money that maintains not only so many families on the west and south-western seaboards but which adds to the comfort of practically every home in Ireland.

No doubt the Government lost their shirt on EEC. They also lost whatever resilience of thought they had when that horse came down at the preliminary fence. In the doldrums from which they cannot recover, they should have the common sense to get out and make way for a successor who will have the courage, strength of purpose and goodwill of the people behind them to put right the appalling mess the Government have so gleefully succeeded in making.

The House has just heard a very interesting and, at times, amusing contribution from Deputy Collins but I do not feel that glib generalisations and wild utterances with no practical backing help us to have a sane and sensible discussion on a matter of this kind. Personally, I much prefer the contribution made by Deputy Corish who sensibly took the view that in our circumstances, if we have to make progress and have a policy of expansion, inevitably Government expenditure in certain directions will go up. I will defend to the utmost Government expenditure in any direction that leads to expansion and thus to further employment. Along with that sort of increased expenditure, there must also be further expenditure on social services and on justifiable wage and salary increases.

If the Book of Estimates were examined in that light and in accordance with the principles I have mentioned, every single item can be fully justified. First, there is the increase relating to increased remuneration for the various branches of the Civil Service, teachers, Defence Forces and health authority staffs. That increase is of the order of £2 million and these wage and salaries claims were fully arbitrated on and found fully due to the people concerned. Under the heading of social welfare and health services, there is an increase of £3,250,000, again, an increase that can be defended as one given in respect of the less well-off sections of the community. Apart from those, the other major increases relate to essential matters, all going to raise our productive capacity. If we look through these headings, we find another major increase is in education where there is an increase of £1 million. Again, this can be fully defended and if we could afford it, it is an increase which should be much greater. A much greater increase under that heading could always be defended because education is the essential need in any community to-day, to raise the technical skills of our people, to improve the quality of their minds so as to add to their own welfare and the national welfare.

The really large increases are in respect of matters for which the Government are sometimes criticised for not doing enough particularly by Deputy Dillon. The largest single increase is one I have not mentioned yet: it relates to agriculture where there is increased expenditure of £8,100,000, bringing the total expenditure on agriculture to £36,600,000, which is a three-fold increase in expenditure under that head over the past five years. Every one of these increases can be fully defended and when you examine the increases under the headings I have mentioned, the logic of them becomes apparent.

In regard to the important heading relating to the development of industry by way of promotional advice or grants and incentives through organisations such as Córas Tráchtála and Foras Tionscal there is an increase of 25 per cent in expenditure over last year. Again, that is a very necessary heading concerned with maintaining the rising level of industrial employment that has become apparent in recent years. The increase in non-agricultural employment is at the rate of 10,000 new jobs a year.

I am afraid the Taoiseach's statement and the statement of the Parliamentary Secretary on that point do not exactly tally.

The Taoiseach in his speech was relating his remarks purely to industrial employment. I am relating my remarks to the whole field of non-agricultural employment, which may include administration as well as industry and construction.

It is still not 10,000 jobs per year.

For the last available year, 1961, the total increase in non-agricultural employment was 10,000 new jobs.

In Ireland. I have taken note of the matter and I shall furnish Deputy Tully and Deputy Mullen with the information from the Statistical Abstract.

We shall be delighted to get it.

Where are the jobs?

The important thing to emphasise—I think Deputy Corish went on the same lines—is that Government expenditure must be the main regulator of progress and expansion in our society. So long as Government expenditure increases under the headings of agriculture and industrial development and so long as there is increased Government expenditure to meet the needs of the poorer sections of the community, such increased expenditure will be defended by us here. Our view is entirely at variance with the conservative view we hear regularly expressed by people on the Fine Gael benches. They come in regularly and bemoan rising rates, bemoan rising expenditure and bemoan increased taxation—all of which at times may be necessary to provide funds for further development and expansion of employment.

Deputy Collins engaged in a scathing attack on various State-sponsored organisations which have contributed so much to the development of our economy over the past 30 years and for which we in Fianna Fáil are mainly responsible. It can be emphasised that these State-sponsored organisations are now playing a positive part in helping further our agricultural development. With the recent formation of An Bord Bainne and the reorganisation of the Pigs and Bacon Commission, you have a practical example of business-like marketing organisations being established that can see to it our milk and pig products in all forms are marketed properly through single State organisations, under an Irish brand and in accordance with a proper quality control system.

An Bord Bainne has had considerable success in further expanding the market outlets for dairy products abroad. The Pigs and Bacon Commission is being reorganised to carry out the same function in respect of bacon exports. In that figure of an increase of £8.1 million in agricultural expenditure, £3.8 million, or practically half, is being spent on the marketing of our dairy and pig products. We are getting these two basic sectors of agriculture going properly. There is no doubt that if we can develop further a thriving industry in respect of dairy and pig products and if these State marketing organisations can ensure the disposal of those products, these sections can become the cornerstone of Irish agriculture. We have every confidence that through these marketing organisations we can build up further outlets for our dairy and pig products.

It is because we have that confidence that the Government have embarked on a policy of financial encouragement towards the establishment of creameries in the West. For years, the West was neglected in regard to creamery development. It was a specialised development only in certain parts of the country. That is being remedied. Creameries are now being established in Roscommon, Galway and Mayo in areas where there is no tradition of dairy production.

The creamery in Roscommon is being established by the farmers themselves, not by Bord Bainne.

With the aid of substantial Government grants.

With the aid of the ordinary grants.

Side by side with this development, we have the establishment of Bord Bainne to ensure that various creamery products can be marketed in expanding outlets abroad.

Again pursuing this essential principle of Government expenditure being the main regulator of expansion, I would point to another matter of great concern in rural Ireland: the development under the present Government of forestry to the stage where we now have achieved an annual planting target of 25,000 acres, which we achieved last year. That represents another very real employment outlet for our people. Something in the region of 5,000 people are employed in the various forestry activities sponsored almost entirely by the State through expenditure channelled from the Department of Lands.

I am very glad to say there is a substantial increase under that heading, too. The increased expenditure under the heading of Forestry for the coming year comes to £245,000. Will any of the conservative gentlemen in the Fine Gael Party suggest reducing that Estimate and thus bring about disemployment of people who find profitable and regular work in the various State plantations? Although we will not get any specific requests from them to cut down on forestry, agricultural investment or industrial grants, we will get from them a general overall condemnation of the increased expenditure without any specific reference to where cuts can be made in a substantial form.

Deputy Dillon made no recommendation for a substantial decrease in this Book of Estimates. If any Government were to reduce substantially any of the increased items in the Book of Estimates, it would merely have the effect of cutting down on development and employment. I feel I have shown that very clearly. One has only to go through the main increases under the Agriculture heading to see that these increases deal with matters with which Deputy Dillon has concerned himself on many occasions.

The first increase I see in the details of the Agriculture Estimate is an increase of £76,000 for the county committees of agriculture designed specifically to improve the advisory services. We have Deputy Dillon time in and time out—in fact, it is his regular theme—adumbrating the view that greater attention should be paid to improving our advisory services. Of course that view is right, there should be more expenditure on our advisory services and there is more expenditure on these services in the Book of Estimates which he criticised throughout the afternoon.

Why then did you abolish the Parish Plan, if you are so interested in the advisory services?

Our interest in advisory services is to operate them through the county committees of agriculture, of one of which the Deputy is a member, and we have increased the grants to these committees so as to enable expenditure on advisory services to be improved with the aid of our financial assistance. Deputy Dillon also stresses, and rightly so, the importance of agricultural research and getting the fruits of agricultural research down to the level of the man on the land so that he is enabled to make use of it. There is an increase of £200,000 for the Agricultural Institute, again an increase that can be defended.

Deputy Collins spoke eloquently about the importance of manuring the land and indeed this has also been a theme of Deputy Dillon's on many occassions, the importance of putting more lime and fertiliser on the land in order to raise its capacity and provide a better income for people working on the land by reducing their overheads with regard to these essential matters of investment. As far as getting the maximum from the land is concerned, one of the biggest increases here relates to this item in the Agriculture Estimate. In the coming year, over £4,000,000 will be spent on the lime and fertiliser scheme, and increase of over £½ million, to provide lime and fertilisers at considerably reduced prices for our farmers, exactly the progress suggested by Deputy Collins without any specific reference by him to this concrete advance displayed in the Book of Estimates in the form of increases under that very important heading.

I have already mentioned the other important increases which relate to the two Marketing Boards, An Bord Bainne and the Pigs and Bacon Commission which has been reorganised, again increases which can be fully defended on the basis that they are now being established on a basis that can contribute to expanding outlets abroad for essential items of agricultural production.

In regard to the Estimate for Industry and Commerce, all of the heavy increases there are directly related to providing grants and incentives to private enterprise to establish industries and also towards providing grants and incentives to our industrialists to re-equip their plant and premises, readapt their organisations and train their workers so as to meet the competitive days which lie ahead in the field of industrial development. There is an increase of £150,000 under the heading of grants for the undeveloped areas and £600,000 for industrial grants generally. For the re-equipment necessary to enable industrialists to adapt their premises and plants there is something over £250,000. These again are increases related directly towards providing more employment at home in our industries and towards ensuring that existing employment is maintained by providing for the re-equipment and modernisation of plants and premises to ensure that employment can be maintained in the competitive days ahead.

Although we had a global criticism from Fine Gael in regard to rising expenditure, we had no specific discussion of these individual items which form the entire part of the increased expenditure and which can be defended.

Can you defend the increase of 2,000 in the Civil Service?

We in Fianna Fáil will certainly stand over any increases for civil servants, or for any other State employees which were the subject of full conciliation discussion and arbitration.

That is not the point. The increase in numbers——

The Parlimentary Secretary should be allowed to make his speech without interruption.

The increase in numbers.

If it is the policy of the Fine Gael Party to reduce the incomes of people in State or semi-State employment, certainly it was not the policy advocated by them some weeks ago when they were singing another tune and when the Deputy was also singing another tune directly opposed to this.

That is not the point; you increased the numbers.

There are certain important indicators which can be used to show the difference in the climate of investment, the difference in the business attitude and in the whole approach in this country today compared with five years ago. One of the most practical that can be mentioned is the matter of bank advances because bank advances in any community are a reflection of the confidence held by the financial institutions. These institutions are the best judges of confidence in regard to investments in a country. If they are chary about advancing money, or if they are chary about encouraging investments, that is the best possible indicator that the country is being badly run.

We must be nearly bankrupt so.

In 1955, the total figure for bank advances was £148 million and in 1956, for the first time ever, that figure actually began to go down and in that year bank advances were reduced to £143.9 million. There was a fall in the moneys advanced by the financial institutions because they, along with a number of other people, had no confidence in the situation developing in those years, a situation caused by Government incompetence in handling a balance of payments difficulty. The figure for mid-October of 1962 for bank advances was £208.1 million and in case Deputy Carroll thinks that that was too far away to be relevant to this discussion, the figure for December, 1962, only two months later, had risen to £218.7 million, an increase of £10.6 million. The figure for bank advances is up by 50 per cent compared with the figures during the last year of the Coalition Government.

Apart from that 50 per cent. increase, there has also been a 50 per cent. increase in public capital expenditure over the past five years. Since 1957, we have increased the amount of direct investment by the State in roads, housing, power and so on by 50 per cent. and last year £17¼ million went directly to building. That is, £17¼ million from State funds went directly to encouraging building, that is, building in its wider sense, the building of hospitals and schools as well as houses. That again is an indicator of progress because in any community that is losing confidence, in any community that is going bankrupt, along with a limitation of bank advances, you get a limitation in the building industry. We remember too well the state of the building industry in the years 1956 and 1957 when various builders went to the wall, unfortunately, due to lack of encouragement from the local authorities and a general clamp down with regard to housing grants and loans.

That situation has now changed and we know from the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance that the Government are examining now the feasibility of bringing more planning into the building industry in order to ensure a continuity of investment and employment in it and to ensure that we never again have the drastic situation such as we had here a few years ago when the industry collapsed and our operatives went away, naturally enough; now, when they are needed, we are having difficulty in getting them back again.

There are no houses for them.

We do not want a recrudescence of that situation. That is why the Government are examining the possibility of so mobilising State and private investment in building, through some form of organisation, like a National Building Agency, as to ensure for the future that building will be done on a planned basis, staged properly, and phased out so that there will be continuity of work, thereby ensuring its maintenance.

The important thing in any economy is the creation of a climate of confidence. The creation of such a climate has been the great achievement of the Fianna Fáil Government since 1957. We want to maintain that climate now in order to maintain the level of investment. We want to maintain the level of both public and private investment. Part of that confidence is reflected in the fact that there is coming in here, not "hot money" as it was derisively described by some Fine Gael speakers, but solid, substantial investment, primarily in industry.

There is "hot" money going out. Singer took a lot of it out.

When we have that sort of investment from abroad, it is an indication of the confidence with which others regard the future of this country. That inflow of capital investment has been steady. Although we had some balance of payments difficulty last year, there was no diminution, and in fact there was an increase, in the net external holdings of our banks. That, of course, is a direct result of the fact that the money was coming in at an equivalent rate and therefore the balance of payments difficulty was merely a difficulty and not a crisis. It was a crisis the Coalition Government allowed to develop in 1955, 1956 and 1957. There is no cause for worry so long as the present climate of confidence is preserved by a competent and efficient Government which provides the environment for an inflow of investment, investment which, along with Irish private investment and State public investment, can maintain the level necessary to provide the basis for expansion and further employment.

Even though there was no basic danger in the fact that we had a deficit in the region of £12 million in our balance of payments last year, it is as well to watch the situation. The Government decided some few weeks ago in the White Paper—a warning signal, not a stop sign—that this balance of payments situation had to be watched closely. There is nothing critical in it, but it must be watched; the situation must not be allowed to develop in which there may be danger to our economy. That situation will not be allowed to develop under this Fianna Fáil Government, and that is an indication of the real leadership of Fianna Fáil and the lack of proper leadership in the years 1955, 1956 and 1957. The Government at that time had clear warning of a balance of payments difficulty emerging. All through 1955, it was apparent there would be a deficit. Early in 1956, it was clear to the Government at the time that the deficit was in the order of £35.5 millions, a deficit of quite staggering proportions. Nothing was done. The Government continued the policy of drift, of frittering away time until eventually, in 1956, they found themselves with yet another balance of payments difficulty. On top of the £35.5 millions deficit in 1955 there was another substantial deficit in 1956.

We do not intend to allow that sort of situation to develop. We intend to give due warning. We intend to make people aware of the situation. We do not intend to allow any disastrous development. I do not believe there will be such a development because of this climate of confidence reflected now in the level of investment, which is going up all the time; so long as the level of investment continues to rise, from whatever source, there is nothing basically wrong with the economy. An analysis of the situation shows clearly that things are steadily improving and have been steadily improving since the introduction of the Programme for Economic Expansion in 1958, the first planning programme introduced here.

It is an interesting commentary that all the targets set in that programme have been exceeded. The target of a two per cent rise in national income was exceeded in the past three years. The rise was in the region of four to five per cent each year. That is again a direct reflection of the value of Government planning, and planning ahead, which can only be done when a climate of confidence has been induced. Indeed, the two per cent target set appeared optimistic at the time. Prior to that there had never been an increase of more than one per cent. We have set it now as our definite target from now on to reach in every year until 1970 a target of a four per cent increase in the national income until we achieve a total national income of £1,000 millions.

A new programme for economic expansion is being prepared. It will be published before the end of this year. In that will be seen the sort of planing necessary. Into that must be fitted this Book of Estimates. The Government are not just introducing a Book of Estimates dealing with one year's problems or the expenditure of isolated Departments; this must be tied into the total plan for the whole economy. Priorities are set in regard to expenditure. Investment targets are established. The emphasis is on productive investment by devising grants and subventions to encourage private enterprise into productive investment. Where private enterprise does not do the job the State steps in directly through the medium of State-sponsored organisations to do the work necessary to bring about further expansion.

That policy contrasts with the policy of discouragement, disillusionment, conservatism, reaction, which we get here continually from the Fine Gael Party, a policy which directly reflects the fact that they do not believe in this country, that basically they lack faith in its future. Once one lacks faith in a country's future one ceases to plan ahead and one ceases to invest in desirable projects. We believe in the future of our country and, in order to further it, we believe in planning ahead for it. The Fine Gael approach is essentially conservative. It is opportunist. It is a policy of expediency rather than principle. All the portents are that the policy initiated by us since our return in 1957 is one which will be followed in the future. We have laid the lines of economic advance. So long as the engine of State is maintained on those lines progress will be made. If we have taught Fine Gael nothing else but that, our job is well done. This is a lesson. If they learn it they will never again be led into the miscalculations of 1948 when, overnight, they scrapped Government plans and Government projects out of pure political pique. We hope now we have taught them something.

With the lines of economic advance laid, with the targets set and the climate of confidence restored and preserved, we hope they will now forget opportunism and expediency, although indeed I feel that with their present approach they will never be in a position where they can take over the reins and use that particular policy in any way whatever.

It appears as if the annual national mud-slinging competition is wending its weary way towards a close. There is not a lot left to say because practically every stone has been thrown and every remark has been made. According to the Opposition, the Fianna Fáil Government are responsible for every calamity of any description that ever befell this country. During their term of office, the calamities and all the evils that befell this country were the will of God or were brought about by the international situation. That is extraordinary reasoning but it is a typical Fine Gael approach. If the country is as bad as some of these gentlemen say it is, then it is extraordinary that the ESB loan was oversubscribed in 15 minutes the other morning. If they had a loan open for 15 years, they would not get half of it.

I have listened to some extraordinary figures being quoted here as regards the impoverished state of the country to-day. They appeared to be typical Hume Street figures and I am not referring to the shady characters for which that street is notorious. Where they got them, I do not know but they did come out of Hume Street because, until I had the good luck to forsake that forlorn organisation, I used to get them myself with careful instructions to use them in the best way possible.

It was great fun to hear Deputy Collins speak about the industrialisation of this country. Up to 1932, when Fianna Fáil took over, there was never a pig killed in this country. You would think that the members of Cumann na nGaedheal were all members of the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and that they could not allow a pig to be killed. It was all Canadian bacon we had to use then and you could not use it because it was the best substitute for crape soles there ever was until crepe soles were invented.

Deputy O'Higgins also gave some figures. He said that 8,000 houses a year were built in 1954, 1955 and 1956. If they were building these houses then, and I did not see any of them, it is a good explanation as to why it was not necessary to build that number in succeeding years because the requirements of a fair portion of the country must have been met. However, the facts are slightly different. In 1955 and 1956, no public representative could appear upon the streets because he would have been eaten alive by people looking for grants and if he was not eaten by them, he would have been eaten by the traders who had advanced the materials and who were looking for payment. If these houses were put up, they must have been put up by some form of a benevolent society I never heard of.

Deputy Dillon had another set of figures and if they are anything on a par with those used by Deputy O'Higgins, we know how to treat them. Everybody except a fool knows that this country is in a different position to-day from that in which it was in 1956. Practically everybody to-day has money but during the time when Fine Gael and Cumann na nGaedheal were in power, nobody except the landlords had money and they would walk on you. Everybody has money to-day because of the policy that has been pursued by the Fianna Fáil Government for so long. The standard of living has completely changed. There are more motor cars in Mayo to-day than there were in all Ireland in 1948.

But Bowmaker owns them.

I do not care who owns them. You do not own them. They are there and they will be there after you have drowned yourself in Galway Bay. The fact is that they are there today. Our people today have good houses, despite the allegation that no houses are being built. If houses are not being built now, they are not being built by people who are too lazy to build them, by people who are no asset to this country in any way. It is grossly unfair to hold this country up to ridicule in the eyes of the world and the same people who publicly hold our country up to ridicule have the audacity to accuse the British Press of doing it when they are doing it themselves.

If anybody would like to see the difference between any area in this country today and what it was in 1956, let him come to my constituency in north Mayo. In 1956, we had nothing but the dole and it was doubtful if you would get it when you went in to collect it on a Thursday. Today we have one of the biggest Bord na Móna installations in this country; we have the peat land experiment; and we have a new factory going up in Ballina. In 1956, we had nothing and there is nobody in this House who can contradict that. I do not know of what other constituency that may be typical but I am giving the example as I see it in my own constituency.

Up to that, we had to let our people go. We had to send them to England, Scotland and America. That situation has changed very much for the better and when the Government are accused of setting up State companies and using the national finances to establish them, surely the people who make these accusations should change their tune? Surely it is better to set up industries to employ our own people than to export them for exploitation by foreigners? It is better, no matter what the cost, to employ our own people in our own country.

One of our main troubles in the west is that we have not got sufficient land for our people. It is very hard for us to stand idly by and see the tens of thousands of untouched, uncultivated and unused acres of the midlands, once we touch the borders of Roscommon eastwards. Our people, in the distant past, perhaps in worse times, operated on those lands. The people who hold them to-day make no use of them. It is unfair that greater effort has not been made to move our people eastwards more rapidly where they would again show their ability as users of that unused land.

If our people in the west were put back on those lands, not only would they change the face of the country but definitely, in a reasonably short time, they would change the whole economic situation within the country. As it is, no matter what amount of money is paid to them, they just have not the lands on which to operate with financial success. Although we get a reasonable share of the £36½ million which is given to agriculture, nevertheless the area of land available is not sufficient to make the holding viable and to make it possible for our people to earn the type of livelihood to which many of them have in the past got used to in foreign lands.

Land improvement schemes bring in money. The increase of £8 per acre in the land project in Gaeltacht areas will be of tremendous benefit to them, but, there again, they have their own troubles. In many places, especially in my county, those schemes are held up because of the reluctance of local officials to co-operate. It is rather a travesty of justice. It is most unfair that the very people who will come along to extort an exorbitant rate from the landholder refuse to co-operate with him to enable him to improve his land and thereby earn the money to pay his rates. That is the position. I hope the Minister, who can do something about it, will take action in connection with that position in County Mayo to-day.

Rates are high in all western counties. Some Deputies take an unholy pride in having a laugh at my county of Mayo, where we have a good sense of humour, but they will find, if they go to the trouble to discover it, that the position in other counties is even worse. High rates are definitely a bar to industry. Take Kerry as an example. Industries have been established there, even in places where they interfere with the scenery, and the rate there has been even higher in past years than in County Mayo.

Where an industry is set up in a western county where rates are high, and where that industry can be shown to give a reasonable amount of local employment, I submit that industry should be free of rates for a period of at least seven to ten years. If a man builds a house he gets rate concessions for a certain period. One of the most important concessions that could be offered to an industrialist going westwards today—where the labour content is not only high but very efficient—is at least comparative freedom from rates for a period at least up to ten years so as to enable him to become established there.

The production of electricity is important. That the ESB is a very well-established concern was proved the other day in respect of their new loan. It is probably beginning to get too big for its boots. No matter what the people concerned with Bord na Móna or the ESB may say, there is yet within the shores of Ireland, as far as I see—and I see it daily—a tremendous amount of untouched bog.

I have replies to two Parliamentary Questions I put yesterday which state that the Bord na Móna people are satisfied that in the Erris area of Mayo there is no further bog suitable for development. All I can say is that the Minister who answered that question must very seriously have been deceived. Those people never made a survey of the tens of thousands of acres to which I referred and to which I shall refer more specifically in the future. They never went near them at all.

It is much easier, of course, to pipe oil into a power station and thereby leave probably hundreds of workers in the west of Ireland or in the midlands unemployed while providing a few extra wives for a few of the sheiks of Kuwait or maybe the eastern oil suppliers. That is what we will do if we continue a policy of building oil supply stations in our country while we have millions of tons of peat available for the same purpose within our shores.

It is only reasonable to ask that this matter be carefully investigated. I am glad to see that an effort is at last being made to develop the fishing industry in the West. It has been very backward due to many causes but mainly due to lack of capital. There has been the problem of poor marketting services and, of course, the problem of low yield. To-day these obstacles are readily surmountable. Over the past 12 months, I have noticed that a tremendous change has taken place in my own area. However, there is no use in having boats, nets and men if there is the danger that they may drown themselves because of difficulty in getting back. It is very important that our piers, slips and harbours be improved as rapidly as possible. The expenditure on these needs, compared with the long-term return, would not be very great.

These people went west at a time when there were no facilities there and when whatever facilities exist there today were provided by local people or by an alien government. It is rather a shame that, over the past forty years —I am not blaming this Government more than any other Government—we have not made some reasonable effort to improve and expand these facilities. A fishing industry, apart from the financial return to those engaged in it, would also mean a considerable expansion in tourism in the area. I am not one of those who would sell my soul for tourists. I do not believe in this nation's becoming a slave to tourists. Whatever money we spend, whatever else we do to develop tourism, should be aimed mainly and principally at the idea of providing proper holiday services for our own people and not for Yankee, Middle-eastern or Australian millionaires. Our own people are the people most likely to spend money. If they adopted the same attitude as many Americans and other foreigners adopt, they probably would be millionaires. A millionaire is a millionaire not because he spends money but because he saves money. Many of these people are of very little value to commercial or other improvement in the West or any other place.

Tourism is an industry which deserves well of us but we should not become completely subservient to tourists. I do not think it is good business or a good advertisement for tourism to pursue the policy of building vast palaces. There are no palatial hotels in Achill Island which is one of the greatest tourist attractions in this country and has been since 1920. I am not talking of Salthill and its sham and hypocrisy. I am talking about a decent people. In Achill Island, there are the ordinary types of hotels and well-kept dwellinghouses and there appears to be no trouble during the tourist season in keeping these places filled. If you build colossal mansions, tourists will keep away from them. Nobody wants to leave New York or Adelaide and arrive at the very same type of hotel as he left. The tourist wants something completely different. Even if he does criticise what he finds, as long as we offer ordinary decent facilities, normally he will return. If we build vast glass palaces where the tourist will be charged colossal prices, tourism will be, not an expanding, but a contracting industry. Tourists have been robbed in other countries and I hope steps will be taken to ensure that that will not happen here.

So much has been said in the course of the debate that I shall be brief. I wish to refer to our attitude towards education. Certainly, education is not one of our strong points. There is a saying in the west that all men are born equal but that some are born more equal than others. I am afraid it is very apt. Although the position is improving somewhat, even today it is only the man with a substantial amount of money who will find his family educated. Serious cognisance must be taken of our education system from the primary school to the University and something must be done to improve it. In the past, something was done about it. Mayo County Council have doubled the number of scholarships available this year and have taken steps to improve the educational facilities within the county. Our resources are limited and our educational facilities are limited by our resources. Expenditure on education cannot be regarded as wasteful. Our primary schools need improvement. An effort has been made to replace the completely out-of-date shacks which have masqueraded as schools over the past century. It is time they were removed from our midst. When such schools are replaced, steps should be taken to prevent their use as dancehalls. That practice should be stopped. Such buildings should be demolished because they are a slur on our system of education.

The suggestion has been made that the Government should get out and allow themselves to be replaced. Anybody with commonsense can see the joke in that. In the next 50 years, Fine Gael will not form a Government; in the next 100 years, Labour will not form a Government; in the next 200 years, Clann na Talmhan will not form a Government — they have disappeared from the House—in the next 600 years, the NPD Party will not form a Government; and I shall not prognosticate on the chances of Independents. What is to replace the Government if they go? Is it the type of mixum-gatherum which in three short years on each occasion brought about national bankruptcy and then hopped off and left the mess after them?

You were shouting for them.

I was. I got the proper tablet since then. You would take me back very quickly if you could get me.

We do not want any renegades.

The Deputy's Party is completely comprised of renegades. It is extraordinary that the Labour Party could possibly vote with Fine Gael. It is a case of a Party which is supposed to be progressive aligning itself publicly with the most reactionary Party in all Europe, outside of the Unionists of the North. There is no alternative to the present Government.

They will not have you, anyway.

There is no use in Fine Gael, Labour or any of the "day-old-chick" Parties in this House coming forward with that type of suggestion. It is a joke. It would be much better if, instead of coming here for the past three weeks discussing the White Paper Closing the Gap—they wanted to make it Widening the Breach—and the Vote on Account, and so on, and indulging in this destructive policy, all these people came together, co-operated with the Government and made even one concrete suggestion as to what could be done to improve the position of this country and of our people and showed, if they are able— and I do not know that they are—a better way of governing and how to make this country a monument to those people who in the past made it possible for us to govern at all.

The debate has been interesting. Its most interesting feature was the very clear way in which it revealed that the outlook and thinking of the Government are at variance with the economic and social realities of the situation obtaining throughout the length and breadth of the country.

The Taoiseach and various Government spokesmen, by a skilful manipulation of statistical evidence, have endeavoured to paint a picture of economic expansion and social progress but no amount of statistical juggling can refute the real evidence of the failure of Government policy which any Deputy can find, even without looking for it in the provincial cities and towns, in villages, cottages and farmhouses.

There is no use in the Taoiseach trying to present to the country and the world an image of a well-developed, highly-industrialised, prosperous country when we still have underdevelopment, unemployment and emigration and even poverty. The lecture the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance gave the other night on Fianna Fáil social legislation cuts no ice when one remembers that there are thousands of families compelled to live in desperate conditions. Even in the Parliamentary Secretary's constituency, 1,500 families are at present living in shocking, overcrowded conditions, in rat-infested, rain-soaked dwellings. There is no use in trying to cloak this fact by any statistical juggling.

Then we had an academic, armchair dissertation by the Minister for Transport and Power on Fianna Fáil aids to agriculture very far removed from the stark reality of the fierce struggle for survival which farmers have to make at present to meet everrising costs on an income which has not increased in the past decade. I do not intend to indulge in academic discussion of our economic and social problems. That is a pastime particularly favoured by Government speakers. But for any Deputy the acid test of Government policy is the practical results which that policy produces in his own constituency, the extra employment in industry, the new business generated, the social amenities and facilities provided.

My constituency is an ideal background for studying the results of the policy pursued by Fianna Fáil since 1957 because it includes a large urban area, the third city in the State, a number of small towns, several villages and then you have large farms —some of the finest land in the Golden Vale—and also the small western type of farm at the foot of the Galtee mountains. When Government spokesmen advance statistical evidence here to prove progress, I am very much amused when I consider that evidence against the evidence I find, week after week, in my own constituency.

Let us start with one of the so-called Fianna Fáil priorities, housing. In Limerick city, there is a dreadful housing situation. I spoke at length on this question in the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Local Government. I do not intend to go into it in detail now but simply to point out that the advent of a Fianna Fáil Government in 1957 brought housing in Limerick city almost to a standstill. In the financial year 1958-59, no house was built in Limerick city; in 1961-62 no house was built; and in the last calendar year, 1962, only 37 houses were built. Other speakers from these benches have put forward in this debate the facts and figures relating to housing in other areas but that is the position in Limerick where today there are 1,500 families urgently needing houses. That is one result in my constituency of Government policy since 1957.

While that situation was building up, we had Government speakers going about the constituency talking about luxury hotels, international-style swimming pools, a new town hall and other grandiose projects of that nature.

The Fianna Fáil record since 1957 in the matter of industrial development is just as bad as in the case of housing. Except for a few minor industrial projects in Limerick city in the past six years, no major industry has been established either in the city or the rural part of my constituency. The same goes for the western half of Limerick county, the constituency of West Limerick. Even some of the old-established, existing industries in Limerick city show a reduction in employment since 1957. We have had redundancy in the CIE locomotive works where almost 90 people have become redundant. The Dairy Disposal Creamery at Lansdowne which, with a proper policy over the past seven years, should not alone have maintained the employment content it had but could have doubled it, is now in the position of having several people fewer in permanent employment. A few miles outside the city another Dairy Disposal building is derelict in the heart of the dairying area. This is what we see of the much-vaunted industrial policy of which we have heard so much. That policy has been disastrous in my constituency.

Since 1957, not one tourist centre has been developed in that constituency, although we have a particularly good potential for fishing in the area, with the Shannon and Mulcaire rivers and various other rivers. Even local groups who have made genuine efforts to develop angling—I have been a member of one such group in the town of Bruff—found when the exploratory work had been done and when local people interested in providing accommodation for anglers wanted a small grant to modernise a room, they could not get it.

On the other hand, at Sarsfield Bridge in Limerick city a colossal luxury hotel is now going up and it is not needed at all because over the past few years private enterprise provided adequate hotel accommodation in the city. It seems to me that this luxurious monster that is being built at Sarsfield Bridge in Limerick will take away business from people who, by their own initiative and enterprise, have built up hotels in Limerick. Fianna Fáil policy since 1957 has been disastrous for my constituency from the point of view of house building, industrial development and the development of tourism.

I come now to what is described as our major national industry, namely, agriculture. I want to say a few words about a branch of that industry which is of vital concern to my constituency, the dairy industry. When I speak about the dairy industry and when I ask questions here about it, I am not just thinking of the farmers but also of the workers in the creameries and the industries in Limerick which depend for their raw materials on the farmers. I am thinking of the fact that 75 per cent of the businesses in Limerick city derive directly or indirectly from dairying. There are in the State something like 100,000 dairy farmers and the family labour force is 150,000. The paid labour force is 38,000 and gross income on the home and export market runs to £30 million. Beef and cattle exports, to which the dairy industry contributes a substantial portion, run to an average of £70 million.

This is an industry in which the people engaged have had no increase since 1956. At the same time, production costs have gone up by an estimated 30 per cent. No statistics produced in this House prove that Fianna Fáil are aiding this industry. The plain fact remains that 100,000 dairy farmers are on the verge of going out of business. I have said this before, and I repeat, that I am familiar with the struggles and problems of our dairy farmers at present. I am aware of them from the numbers coming to me week after week asking for assistance in trying to solve their financial problems. I stated before here that I have been horrified by the fact that a substantial proportion of the loans for which application was made to the Agricultural Credit Corporation was for the purpose of paying debts. I have assisted many farmers making application for these loans. I have three examples which I have taken from many others. Case A is a loan of £10,000 of which £8,500 was to pay debts. Case B was an application for £6,000, of which £4,000 was for paying debts. The third case was that of a small farmer who applied for £1,500, of which £900 was needed to pay debts. That is the evidence and no statistics will convince me that the position is otherwise.

Taking into account the economic and social importance of this industry, not alone to my constituency but to the country at large, one would expect the Taoiseach as Leader of the Government to adopt a more sensible approach to the demands from this section of the community. Instead, we found the Taoiseach last week accusing the various farmers' organisations which are fighting for their members, for their livelihood and their survival, of rivalry, of power-seeking and prestige-seeking. This, in my opinion, was a totally irresponsible statement and it was all the more irresponsible, in view of the fact that never before was there greater need for community co-operation and community effort. But I thank God that last Saturday the farmers' organisations which the Taoiseach insulted last week, gave the Taoiseach his answer when in Limerick city all organisations connected with the dairy industry agreed to unite in their demands for justice.

There is another matter about which I should like to remind the Taoiseach and the Government, that is, that these organisations and their leaders whom he accused of rivalry and power-seeking have rendered a voluntary service to agriculture far greater than what has been rendered by the Government during the past seven years. It is a disgraceful state of affairs. Having had a "go" at the farmers' organisations, the Taoiseach went on to state that the only way in which the demands of this section of the community could be met was by increasing the price of butter by 1/- a lb. I detect in this an attempt to drive a wedge between the urban and rural communities. This is not true at all. There are almost unlimited markets throughout the world for high quality milk products and we have an unlimited potential in this country, particularly in the Limerick area, to supply those demands.

During the past few years, the Danes, the Dutch and the New Zealanders have been increasing their output of condensed milk, chocolate crumb, and certain other dairy products. I have a letter from an Irish agricultural graduate who has spent the past two years in Nigeria and he tells me that there is a colossal market there for milk products, such as powdered milk and so forth. I feel that if we had a realistic approach to this question of the dairy industry, not alone could we give our dairy farmers an economic price for their milk but we could provide employment for thousands of workers.

The plain fact is, and I speak from experience, that as far as industries based on milk are concerned, the Government and the Department of Agriculture have no policy at all. If they had, they would not have permitted what was perhaps the greatest disaster in recent years for the dairy industry, that is, the establishment of a cheese factory in Wexford. I know it from my contacts with European processing firms. This project in Wexford has done more damage to the milk industry than any other——

How is that?

I am talking about the stupidity, first of all, of establishing a milk processing factory in an area which is not traditionally milk-producing and the fact that it has failed. Have the Germans not pulled out?

It is exporting cheese at present to many parts of the world.

Have the Germans not pulled out? Has it not failed?

No, it has not failed.

A State grant of £200,000 has gone down the drain.

Has the Deputy figures to prove it?

I am afraid these are Fine Gael figures.

I am stating facts.

The Deputy is not stating facts or anything like them.

(Interruptions.)

I know from the foreign milk producing people with whom I have come in contact that the failure of this industry has had a very bad reaction.

(Interruptions.)

On the other hand, I believe that any place taking in industries of that kind should be a place where the raw material is available. What we need for the dairy industry is a down-to-earth realistic policy. I understand a Supplementary Estimate will be introduced during the next few days and on that we shall have an opportunity of discussing the industry in greater detail; meanwhile, I should like to say that, so far as my constituency is concerned, judged by any criterion you wish, the fact is that the policy pursued by Fianna Fáil since 1957 has proved disastrous.

(Interruptions.)

If the Deputy wants to make his maiden speech, I shall give way to him. The picture is one of the Government spending vast sums of money on public building instead of housing our people, pouring millions into autobahns for the tourist, while the farmers living up the by-roads, farmers who pay rates, cannot get a few hundred pounds to repair their roads. This debate has been interesting, but statistics never convince me. So far as my constituency is concerned, the picture is one of a Government who have completely forgotten the ordinary man and the plain people of Ireland.

Deputy J. J. Collins and Deputy Carroll rose.

Deputy Collins.

Might I draw your attention to the fact that when the second last speaker rose, only two Deputies presented themselves and the Leas Cheann-Comhairle decided in favour of Deputy Leneghan. There was no one else standing. There were not many in the House.

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle had to call someone.

He called Deputy Leneghan.

I notice an Independent Deputy was called then.

There were only two offering.

An Independent was called then. I must interlard the Deputies. I am calling a Deputy on the other side of the House now.

I am sorry if Deputy Carroll feels that my presenting myself has deprived him of the right to speak. I had no intention of offering until I had to bear with the last speaker. He must think we are all very foolish and innocent people down in Limerick, especially the dairy farmers; they must be very innocent people if they so easily forget the time, the date and the place when Deputy Dillon offered them 1/- a gallon for milk. I remember milk was 4d. a gallon in 1931 when Cumann na nGaedheal were in power. I remember the Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Dr. Ryan, introducing the Dairy Prices (Stabilisation) Act in 1932, the first time in the history of the State since its establishment in 1922 that the dairy farmer was put on a sound footing.

Deputy O'Donnell tells us we have ceased to build houses in Limerick city and county. I tell the Deputy he was a raw recruit in the Fine Gael camp when I was Chairman of the Limerick County Council. I can well remember the secret instructions sent out by Fine Gael to county managers to cease building houses and providing sanitary services. I can well remember the reduction in the moneys from the Road Fund.

Was that in 1959?

But Fianna Fáil did it again in 1959.

Deputy O'Donnell confesses he does not like statistics, but if he goes into the Limerick County Council offices and checks the statistics there, he will find that more cottages have been built in rural Limerick under Fianna Fáil than were built in any other county in Munster.

How many are locked up now?

Seven in my own parish.

You come in here half-cocked and half-baked in the Fine Gael camp to ridicule the farmers of Limerick.

Deputy Collins should address the Chair.

The Deputy ridiculed the farmers of County Limerick.

I am not going to argue whether he did or did not, but Deputy Collins will address the Chair.

I should like to tell all concerned that the dairy farmers of Limerick got an opportunity of repudiating the Fianna Fáil Administration 15 months ago. By an overwhelming majority, they elected a majority of Fianna Fáil representatives. That was not any repudiation of Fianna Fáil policy in the years 1957 to 1960.

They were on the march last year.

Will Deputy Rooney please allow Deputy Collins to complete his speech? Deputy Rooney contributed to the debate last night.

It was stated that there is heavy unemployment in Limerick because of Fianna Fáil policy. Criticisms have been made of the building of luxury hotels. These, of course, are built by private enterprise. The business people of Limerick and the workers were never better off than they are at the moment. Trade is buoyant because of the tremendous industrial activity at Shannon. I should like to warn those who try to edge in behind the rival farming organisations that the majority of the dairy farmers of Limerick have more confidence in a Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture than they would ever have in a Fine Gael Minister for Agriculture. As my friend from North Mayo said, not in the next 50 years will we see a Fine Gael Government in this country. I agree with him.

The people gave Fine Gael two trials in the Coalition set-up. The first break-up occurred in connection with dairying and milk; the second occurred when they ran away from their financial responsibilities, leaving the country in a mess. Then Deputy O'Donnell alleges that the disastrous policy of Fianna Fáil, operated since 1957, has ruined the people he represents. I come from the areas of the really hard-working farmer in the extreme west of West Limerick. I believe the farmers are entitled to better prices than they are getting at the moment, but a great many of them are well content that the price is being maintained.

I can well remember the attitude of Fine Gael last year when it was proposed that one penny per gallon would be paid by way of subsidy to Bord Bainne. Fine Gael suffered their greatest disillusionment 12 months ago when this Government gave one penny towards the cost of milk production. We had to put one penny on cigarettes to offset that penny which we had to pay Bord Bainne. Then we are told by Deputy T. O'Donnell that there are unlimited markets in Nigeria and elsewhere. If he has all that information, he is lacking in his duty as a public representative if he does not give it to Bord Bainne and let them explore the possibilities of these great markets.

I brought more to Limerick than you brought.

You brought nothing to Limerick. Your claim is bluff and whatever little bit of credit should be given to Fine Gael in Limerick should be given to Deputy Jones and not to you.

I have already asked the Deputy to address the Chair.

I am sorry, Sir, but it is very hard to listen to these things.

It may be hard but the Deputy must address the Chair.

I stood up to refute the charges made against Fianna Fáil by Deputy T. O'Donnell and I will leave it at that. I hope to meet the Deputy in his own constituency and if I do not give him a trouncing, it will be too bad.

I did not intend to take part in this debate but the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands can take the credit for my being prompted to contribute to the discussion. I rarely speak of anything in this House as far as industry is concerned except building, to which I will refer later, but I am forced, by the remarks of the Parliamentary Secretary, to reflect that some three or four years ago, I brought to the attention of the Minister for Transport and Power the cost of fish in Dublin. On that occasion, I mentioned the fact that I had paid 1/3d. for a mackerel, the scum of the sea, in the Dublin wholesale fish market. Following on that, I was rather surprised to see at 7.30 a.m. one day the Parliamentary Secretary in the Dublin fish market surrounded by television cameras and everything that goes with them.

He was the biggest cod there.

I said to myself: "At last he is going to do something about it; he is going to do something about fish caught in Clare, West Cork and Kerry." He may have been enthusiastic, but, so far, despite the headlines in the evening papers about there being a glut of salmon, nothing has been done. Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware of the cost of salmon in the shops of Dublin today? His Minister said here that when looking up old indentures pertaining to Galway and the West, he found one provision that salmon should not be given to a labourer more than four times a week. You would want something more than a Parliamentary Secretary's salary to have salmon more than four times a week in this city and that goes for every fish down to the mackerel.

I trust that his Department will do something about it, something about the wealth that is in the sea surrounding this whole country of ours. The foreigners are able to be aware of it just as they are aware of the fact that the geographical situation of this country in the air age is to their advantage. I am not terribly sure that it will be so much to the advantage of the natives.

I am going to break my rule in this debate and refer to agriculture, for the reason that the last time I spoke here on the Closing the Gap debate, I concluded with the hope that the Minister would give another million to the farm labourer. It is very wonderful and very laudable to give these grants to the farmers. However, if a farmer has an estate worth £10,000 or £20,000, he can get all the grants he wants but the smaller farmer cannot avail of the grants. He has to do the work first. Until the farm labourer is put on a par with his opposite number in the building industry, I do not see how we can ever keep him on the land. I think the Government have made a mistake with regard to the grants for agriculture in that they have given money but not in the right direction.

Reference has been made here to the glass and steel buildings which are being erected. I do not know where they are being put up and I am in the building industry. The last speaker referred to some monstrosity going up at Sarsfield's Bridge in Limerick. Last week, I was in Woolworth's in Limerick and after a hard day's work, I went across the street to the new Royal George Hotel which is one of the best hotels in the south of Ireland but I could not get a room there. I spent an hour and a half walking around Limerick looking for a room. I agree with Deputy Collins that during the past year anyone passing through Limerick would imagine he was in London after the blitz, there is so much building work going on. For that, the Government can take credit.

I should like to refer to the housing grants and to bring to the notice of the Minister the desire of the most humble person, whether in the rural areas or in the cities, to own something. The people in the rural areas wish to own their own plot of land and the desire of the city dweller is to own his house. Over 40,000 houses have been erected by Dublin Corporation and many of the people living in them are desirous of buying them out. Their families are reared now and they themselves have their roots in the particular district and do not want to leave it. However, by virtue of the fact that the Minister for Local Government will withdraw the subsidy given to Dublin Corporation, that body cannot entertain the idea of selling their homes to these people.

Let us say a man has saved money. He has a nice home, nicely furnished and he has kept it well. He wants to buy it. He wants to put an extra room on it but he cannot do that because he does not own his house. If giving these people that facility were to put another £5 million on the total in the Book of Estimates next year, I would support it. The Minister should not allow his blood pressure to rise on the question of balancing the Budget. The men of this nation in this century have played their part. For the first time in this debate, the word "squander-mania" was used. It fell on deaf ears as far as I was concerned.

I want to impress on the various members of the Government that they should point out to the Minister for Local Government that he or his Department is preventing the purchase of corporation dwellings, which results in a very large expenditure, £16 per house, on maintenance. By reason of that attitude, as well as the many functions of the City Manager, we simply cannot get anywhere. If another few million pounds were put up, I feel sure the Government would not lose anything in this city.

As in the case of the last speaker from Limerick, since 1957, housing by the Dublin Corporation has dropped. The money was available: there was no shortage of money. However, because of an exodus from this city in 1956, resulting in many houses in Ballyfermot and other places lying idle, the authorities got panicky and decided they would not build any more. A few days ago there was a newlyweds' draw for houses. There were 1,360 applicants for 200 houses. It will be a year before the 199th person is housed. That is our wonderful position.

We have appealed to artisans and craftsmen to return to Ireland. That appeal has failed because they have nowhere to live here. If Dublin Corporation cannot see their way to do it, then the Department of Local Government should decide to build another 500 or 1,000 houses and hold them in reserve. In those circumstances, artisans and craftsmen can return here with their families.

Take a person who emigrated in 1956 or 1957. I hate to mention those years because I hear so much about them, ordinarily. The Parliamentary Secretary is a wonderful fellow for dates: he really likes to quote them. If that man who emigrates wishes to return with his wife and family, he must wait six, nine or 12 months. According to my information, if a man has been away for 12 months, he must wait six months before he can return and if he has been away only six months, then he must wait three months, and so on.

Calmly and blandly, we sit here and praise ourselves. I have heard much talk about the number of houses built by Fine Gael, the number built by Fianna Fáil, and comparisons made. I do not know anything about Limerick but I can state without fear of contradiction that fewer and fewer houses have been built in Dublin since 1957 when I came in here hoping to do something about it.

In 1949, we put an advertisement in the newspapers asking English and Scottish concerns to come over here to build even the put-together type of house. At that time, we required 30,000 houses. According to the Dublin housing authorities, there are still 9,000 applicants who have not a hope of getting a house in present circumstances. Therefore, we must put our shoulders to the wheel. If prosperity is just around the corner, let us go around it. Let us build some houses. That is the vital point if we want to get our artisans and craftsmen back and undoubtedly there is a scarcity of them.

It is wonderful to see these edifices, whether they be 16-storey or 50-storey. After all, very few of the natives will be staying in them. If they are a failure, there is no State money invested in them and we do not have to worry. I do not mind being charged with being irresponsible when I say that whether the figure be £157 million or £197 million, I would agree to it in the circumstances of the times. I have been getting up here, undoubtedly without any success, and appealing to the Minister for Finance to give a little increase in Old IRA or some other pensions. I know the Minister must feel sometimes as I felt, for instance, when I received a deputation of ratepayers who wanted the lanes at the back of their houses concreted, the paths improved, the lighting improved and, at the same time, the rates kept down.

I cannot advocate or request an increase in pensions or in any amenity and, at the same time, expect to keep the cost down. I think I had the temerity to suggest to the Taoiseach that he should now prepare for the ninth round of increases. It is something he should do. It is something he will have to do and it is something that requires to be done.

I do not know what the housing position is down the country or in other cities but I do know about the housing position in Dublin. Some Deputies know nothing about what they say. There is no city in any part of Europe which has done more to house its citizens than the city of Dublin, through the Corporation of Dublin, with the help of the different Governments. I hate to hear people on that side of the House saying "You built them; we paid for them." It is not Deputies who pay for housing; it is the people who pay. It is dreadful to hear that kind of argument in this House instead of objective suggestions that would help to improve the position of our unfortunate country and keep our people at home.

Houses were not built in 1957, 1958 and for portion of 1959 by the Corporation of Dublin. Emigration was so great in 1956, 1957 and 1958 that in this city there were 1,600 vacant houses left to the corporation. In those circumstances, were the Housing Committee, of which I am a member, or the City Manager entitled to build houses and to leave them vacant? At that time money was scarce and continued scarce up to 1959, despite whatever Government were in power. People during that time were able to cross over the water and earn £25 and £30 a week because of the fact that the Conservative Government in England were building up the position so that they could say before the election: "You never had it so good." Our people went over. I hope that I shall never hear in this House from either side any reference to housing in Dublin. I am a member of the Housing Committee of Dublin Corporation. I know exactly what has happened over the past ten years. In those ten years, I have not missed ten meetings. I know the position exactly and will tell the truth of it here and will not try to make political capital.

The gentleman who is now City Manager was Housing Manager from the time I became a member of the Corporation, in 1950, until a couple of years ago. In respect of housing generally and building by people who want their own houses, a cruel rate of interest has to be paid. The person building a house borrows money now at 6 per cent. or so. There is a Government grant of £275 and, under certain conditions, the local authority will give £137 10s.—or has done up to the present—and that person must have a couple of hundred pounds in most cases. In addition to the Government grant, the money from the ratepayers and his own money, he borrows £1,600, say, from a building society or from the Corporation through the Local Loans Fund or some other scheme, and has to pay £96 a year in interest alone. The man who is building his own house apart from a corporation house fares badly. He has to meet increasing costs of all descriptions. That is the reason why such high rents are being asked in this city and higher rents in other parts of the country. I do not want to hear any more about housing.

There are high rates obtaining in the city of Dublin. The rates last year were 45/- in the £ and of that 45/-, one-third or 15/- odd, went towards Health Services over which we had no control. As Deputy Carroll has said, we were denied the services that we should get because of the Government and the health authority. The health authority gave us a demand. We could not turn it down. There was 15/- in the £ in respect of the Health Act apart from the other services of the board of health. I do not think we could expect to do very well in those circumstances.

I listened to a Minister saying that the Government gave so much to agriculture, that they had given an increase to the civil servants, to the teachers, to the Garda Síochána and all the rest. If prices are not controlled, prices are bound to increase. To meet the increased cost of living, there must be increased salaries and wages. It is natural that more money will be needed for all the services and, consequently, higher taxation. There has been no question of price control over the past ten or 12 years. The result is that salaried men or wage earners have had a very raw deal from some of the people who were protected by this and other Governments. I refer to protected industries. The unfortunate feature of it is that some of these protected industries are to be advanced further money to improve their position so that they will be able to meet, not the Common Market conditions, but the position that will arise when tariffs are reduced.

Some of those firms—very few, indeed—have done everything possible to make themselves competitive but there were others who did nothing about the matter, who inflicted hardship on our people, by raising prices. I should like the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Lands to note that they raised their prices, and were permitted to do so, to the level of the imported article which had to bear a tariff. That is undeniable. I shall not give statistics or figures. I know the exact position. I hope something will be done to control prices. When prices are controlled, the cost of living is stable and there is no necessity for further salary increases. When salaries are increased, the lump sums given to civil servants, teachers, the Garda and all the rest are increased, thereby increasing the local debt as well as the national debt. Increases in salaries are of no use to people if prices are not controlled. The Government have done nothing to control prices and, therefore, we had the eighth round of wage increases and, I suppose, unless something is done in the matter, there may be a question of a ninth round. That is for organisations and those who have good trade unions, but what about the unfortunates living on fixed incomes, old age pensioners and those living on the 25/- a week from the local authorities? There is no increase for them. Their position just worsens all the time.

The Government are to be complimented, I suppose, on their efforts at industrialisation but I fear it is being done in a haphazard way. There may be planning of a kind but I think there is no comprehensive plan of aiming at yearly targets to be achieved over a certain number of years. In that way, it might be possible to improve our position but I do not see why one particular part of the country only should be looked after. Industrialists coming in from abroad get grants, loans and facilities of every kind. Would it not be better if the Government decided to build a factory where it is needed and where it is possible to build it? Could not Irish operatives be trained and put into the factory when built and could not a representative of the Department of Finance or the Department of Industry and Commerce be put there to look after the money invested by the Government? What objection is there to that? Who can object to the ESB, Bord na Móna, the sugar company and so on, concerns run by Irishmen and worked by Irishmen?

This fetish of private enterprise is most annoying at times. Private enterprise is all right for smaller industries but where you have £500,000 or £1 million involved, no private enterprise will be able to handle it unless you bring in foreigners. I prefer to see Irish industry run by Irish people. God knows, for long enough Irishmen were denied anything in their own country. Now, with our own Government—and it is immaterial which Government is in power—Irish people should get a chance. Other peoples have been successful; why not Irishmen in their own land? Why is it necessary to bring in foreigners? Why not send our operatives to be trained abroad? They are as good as most others, if not better. They should be given an opportunity.

There is a great improvement in education, particularly vacational education. I should like to see a vocational school in every village. Education is what is needed today but when boys and girls leave the primary school—they pass the primary certificate in Dublin city at 12½ or 13—there is no further room for them. If not secondary schools, we should have vocational schools for them. There was a time when some of us looked down on vocational schools as places where trades were taught and that kind of thing was anathema to quite a number of Irish people who are very glad now to have an opportunity of getting education in them. Some of our people had grandiose ideas and sent their sons to America, Australia or New Zealand. The people at home did not know what they worked at but since they had no skill, they had to carry the hod. It is now realised how necessary it is for our people to have some skill and I am glad our Minister for Education is doing a good deal in the matter.

I know this because I am a member of a vocational education committee in Dublin and the Government through him, have been very helpful in enabling us not alone to extend Bolton Street but to provide the new college at Kevin Street. Please God, in the very near future, our College of Commerce in Rathmines will be in another part of the city. That is necessary because in this city and its environs we have one-third or one-quarter of the population and therefore an increasing number of children who need skills that will be helpful to them at home or, if there is no work for them here, will guarantee them a better position abroad than the fine farmers' sons and workers' sons who had to go abroad in former years and carry the hod, could achieve.

I should like the Government to control prices in some way. If that were done, there would be no necessity for increased wages or salaries but when prices are not controlled, they are not controlled. Sometimes, I admit it is pretty hard to control prices on account of the cost of imported goods but surely when we have our own factories, something could be done on those lines. We had control some years ago and even at that time if you went into a shop to buy a pair of boots, the price was controlled. I hope the key Minister, the Minister for Finance, will try to suggest something to the Government in that respect.

We import goods worth over £100 million more than we export. There is no economic law that even the finest civil servant can state which says that the Budget must be balanced every year. We have an example of it in our cattle trade which is up one year, down for another, perhaps, and down for another and then up in the following year. One year can balance out the other.

I was glad that during the year the Parliamentary Secretary decided to set up a board for the fishing industry. The boards we have at present are very successful. I have already mentioned the ESB, Bord na Móna, the sugar company, Aerlínte and others. I know no reason why a board, as proposed by the Parliamentary Secretary, if set up, should not be successful in putting the fishing industry on a proper basis and thus be of great help to the country's economy. People may say that Irish fishermen will not work as hard as foreign fishermen. I believe if they are provided with boats and given the opportunity of training, they will work as well as anybody else.

I was very glad to hear from the Minister for Agriculture of the intention to enlarge farms in the West up to 40 acres or 45 acres. That is a grand idea, and I hope it will be implemented as soon as possible. The Land Commission have sufficient staff to do something in the matter.

I would say to the Minister that he should do something about controlling prices. In that way, he can steady the cost of living. The cost of living has gone up. It went up when the food subsidies were taken off, but there is no use going back over that now. Let us look to the future and see if there is any way by which we can keep prices steady.

Subsidise food.

The food subsidies were there years ago. We were told they were to be there only for the time of the emergency. We were told that prices would find their own level. They did not. We have the English Government subsidising their farmers. Because they wanted certain conditions for their farming community, they could not get into the Common Market. Instead of subsidies, it may be possible to steady and keep down the cost of living by controlling prices. There would then be no necessity for increased salaries and wages. The ordinary wage and salary earner will tell you increases are nullified in such a short time that it is necessary to seek further increases. I would ask the Minister to consider ways and means, therefore, of controlling the cost of living.

By way of preliminary remark, might I express one point of agreement with Deputy Carroll, who said, when the Limerick Deputies were squabbling about housing conditions down there, that he knew nothing about Limerick. I am in the same rather happy position. However, I have heard an awful lot about Limerick, and nearly always in the context that the worst housing conditions in Ireland are in Limerick. I am sorry Deputy Collins is not here to refute me, if that were possible. That is the reputation Limerick has among people in Dublin not too happy in regard to the housing situation.

In the general matter of the Vote on Account, it is following a well-set path, because it is always a prelude to the Budget that will follow in about six weeks. We have had a couple of preliminary pieces of evidence with regard to what the Budget is likely to be. We are definitely following a well-trodden path as far as Fianna Fáil are concerned. The last speaker made an appeal to have prices kept down so that salaries and wages will not have to be increased. The record of the Fianna Fáil Government right through their period is that they did not care much about prices. They certainly never believed in control of prices. They certainly never believed in effectively controlling them, but they did try to control, as best they could, wages and salaries. That is the mood that is obviously on them at the moment.

When the war broke out, we were asked in this House to fortify the Government with all the powers required to face the emergency. Among other things, there was a definite demand that wages and salaries should be brought under control. That power was given to the Government, but on the understanding they were going to prevent, as far as they could, prices from being raised in the emergency conditions likely to prevail.

The war was barely two years on when the then Minister for Finance came into this House and said he had to confess that, while wages and salaries had been strictly controlled, certain people who were in a powerful position had taken from the community exorbitant profits by way of the commodities they were selling. I remember when the same Minister was asked by the late Senator Douglas why did he say such things, his answer was that he knew what was happening. He said he had the returns of the Revenue Commissioners and he knew how profits were going up through increased prices while, at the same time, wages were being kept under control.

That was only following an earlier pattern that had been beaten out by Fianna Fáil. They got a full majority in this House in 1933. From that time, they controlled salaries and wages but let prices run as they might. Those were the days in which there was no Labour Court to which industrial workers might resort. Those were the days in which State personnel had still been denied arbitration. It was under those conditions they ruled from 1933 to 1939, while the weaker members of the community were being savaged by high prices the Government inevitably allowed to prevail. From 1939 to 1945, strict control was operated under Emergency Powers Orders. The ban was lifted in 1945 and a new path was trodden out.

The preliminary to the Budget so far has been the issue of the White Paper Closing the Gap, which is, in effect, a threat of a wages standstill order. With that, there have been statements by the Taoiseach and other members of his Government to the effect that, whatever is being done in the White Paper by way of exhorting those people not to ask for an extra round of wages, is being done in the interests of the weaker members of the community. The story is that they are the people who will suffer if wages and salaries increase any more and if the so-called inflation were to prevail.

I have in my hands a record of a speech made by the Taoiseach in September, 1947. That was at the time when the Supplementary Budget for that year was being prepared. The Taoiseach, who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce, posted himself to Letterkenny. There is a great record of his speech in the papers of 15th September of that year. The headline was "Output Must Go Up". It is very much like what is in the White Paper. It was a warning against increases in wages, very definitely like what is in the White Paper.

The Tánaiste of those days said that prices had risen. He said the causes of the high prices were the unusually severe spring and autumn, higher farm produce prices, higher wages, higher cost of fuel and higher cost of imported materials. He said the rise was not yet critical, but that further salary and wage increases might take the situation out of control and lead to full inflation. He said strikes were a problem, but it was possible to try voluntary methods of settling these. This was a lengthy address, very much in the tone of the White Paper. It wound up with this statement:

If there is an idea we are facing an easy time in which we can have more pay and less work, it is very desirable to kill that quickly. We are entering four years of most acute difficulty in which economic disaster will threaten on every side, and our only weapon of defence is our capacity to work hard.

Does that sound familiar to those who have conned the White Paper? That was on 14th September, 1947, and it was reported in the newspapers the following day. Then he posted back to Dublin and when we became Government at a later date, we found the draft of the Industrial Emergency Bill, 1947 and the Tánaiste's minute. I read this from the file in a Budget Speech of 1948. I have a copy of the minute here and it is in these terms:

On the assumption that discussions with the Trade Union Congresses will not result in any agreement on the stabilisation of wage rates and that legislation will be required, it is necessary that immediate steps should be taken to prepare a draft Bill. The main purposes of the Bill will be as follows——

and then they were set out. They were to prohibit any employer from paying or agreeing to pay any worker a wage rate greater than that to which he was entitled in the agreement of 15th October, 1947. The second point was to withdraw the protection of the Trade Disputes Act from any strike the purpose of which was to compel any employer to pay wages which he was prohibited from doing under the previous clause.

There was a PS which said "The duration of the Bill will be two years. Penalties should be severe." The Tánaiste in those days was very worried about the weaker person, the small person who would be swamped if inflationary forces should be let loose. He said:

When inflationary forces are let loose it is the workers who suffer most, the men of no property who have nothing to sell but their labour and to whom the pay packet money is of vital consideration.

As I say, the Tánaiste posted back to his Department and within a month, you get the word: "Prepare a piece of legislation; let the penalties be severe; let us say that it will be an offence for an employer if he pays anything more than what the workers were entitled to on 15th October, 1947, and withdraw the protection of the Trade Disputes Act in respect of any strike brought about in order to compel any employer to pay anything more than that." That was the type of tyranny imposed during the emergency and when the war came to an end and the Emergency Powers Orders were lifted, the Tánaiste and his colleagues became afraid that workers might now try to get back, in the days of peace, what they had been deprived of in the days of war, at a time when our Minister for Finance said they were able to control workers' salaries and wages but they had not been able to control prices and the people had to pay out of their own wages the increased prices extorted from them out of the pressure of the war.

Recently in this town, there has been some talk as to whether or not wages were likely to be pegged again. Speaking in Clonmel on 29th September, 1961, the Taoiseach said:

According to newspapers reports, a Labour Party speaker had suggested that the Government was contemplating a wage-freeze, or a wage-stall. This was absurd and was only an election stunt, the same as that Party had used at other elections.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce apparently feeling the weight of the same rumours with regard to stalling about wages spoke in December, 1961, at the annual dinner of the Insurance Institute and he said emphatically that:

...any belief which is abroad, that wages will be pegged when the Common Market materialises, is unfounded and erroneous.

The Tánaiste spoke in the Dáil on 16th October, 1947, and said:

I want, however, to make it clear that the Government regards it as an essential safeguard to the interests of the general community at the present time that some check upon the upward movement of wages should operate.

At a later stage, the then Minister for Justice expressed himself about what Fianna Fáil really wanted to prevent. In 1949 he said:

The increase in the Civil Service salaries is to cost £700,000 in a full year, according to the Minister. The army, the Gardaí and the teachers are also entitled to increases but the total cost has not yet been disclosed. Local government officials will naturally expect increases also as will workers all over the country.

That was the situation which Fianna Fáil were determined to prevent. They would have prevented it if three of the six lost Dublin seats had been held. That would have given the Taoiseach a majority. That was what Fianna Fáil really wanted to prevent and that is what they have always wanted to prevent. At the last election, a Civil Service body, the Irish Conference of Professional and Services Associations, sent a note to the three main parties seeking an undertaking that if they were returned to power, they would honour in full any award made at arbitration. Fine Gael and Labour gave a straight answer "Yes", that they would give that undertaking. Mr. T. Ó Maoláin, that is, Senator Ó Maoláin, on behalf of Fianna Fáil answered in this way:

I feel sure your Council and leaders recognise that the record of the present Government is such as to make any such guarantees in regard to further policy entirely unnecessary.

That of course was apparently before there was any thought of the White Paper and what it forecast was likely to be done.

I want to get back to 1947. We were told by the present Taoiseach speaking as Tánaiste and Minister for Industry and Commerce that economic disaster threatened us on every side for about four years and that it was necessary to control wages and salaries. As a result of the three by-elections of 1947, a different Government from that of Fianna Fáil were returned. I have a statement here which I have written in on the Estimates and Receipts for Expenditure for the year ending 31st March, 1950. It refers to what was done in the first Budget of 1948 as well as what was carried out by certain orders made by the inter-Party Government even prior to the Budget.

The taxes that had been put on in the winter of 1947 on beer and tobacco were removed and we did not impose and carry forward the proposed 6d, on the income tax and we gave other reliefs. The amount of revenue that was drawn away and put back into the hands of the people for their spending was in respect of these three items: £7 million was the revenue to be derived from drink and tobacco, £1 million from income tax and about £500,000 from the other reliefs that were given, a total of £8½ million. In addition, we gave to the old age pensioners, those people who depend on State aid, subventions which amounted to £2½ million and between the State personnel, civil servants, the Army, teachers and the Garda, we distributed another £1,800,000. We gave an extra ration of tea which we had to subsidise and that cost £500,000. The total of those three items was £4,800,000 and if that is added to the £8,500,000, it indicates that we gave back to the people for their spending £13,300,000.

Other reliefs were given at the same time but I concentrate on the big items. We were warned of economic disaster and that the only way to prevent it was to collapse the spending power of the people. Instead of paying any heed to that type of warning, we gave these moneys back to the people. There was no economic disaster. Probably they were the three best years this country has ever enjoyed, certainly the three best years since 1932 that this country has ever enjoyed.

And we are trying to pay for it ever since.

We are paying for a lot of things ever since but not for that. As I say we put £13½ million— in fact £15½ million—back into the people's hands for their spending. The warning was against that: you will cause inflation. There was no inflation. There was certainly no price inflation and if anybody doubts my judgment in that matter, I challenge anybody who does so doubt to go to the records of the Central Bank and to find out whether the Governor in those days said anything in regard to inflation in the years that followed that Budget in 1948.

The only bad result that came from our budgetary arrangements of 1948 to 1951 was what happened in 1952 when the present Tánaiste, the then Minister for Finance, introduced a Budget that will never be forgotten in this country, the Budget of 1952. In it, he removed not all but most of the subsidies that had been incorporated in our previous Budget and the reason he gave for it was something that has to be remembered. He said that as increased wages and salaries had gone beyond the increase that had been recorded in the cost of living, there was no social or economic reason for paying the subsidies any further. We challenged him afterwards, without denial, that that meant that the people were in his estimation too well off. They had money to spend. They had their wages and salaries increased and he decided in those days that there was no economic or social reason for carrying forward the subsidies.

In addition to giving these remissions of taxation and giving other subventions, we realised that the whole structure of wages and salaries in this country had gone awry. The matter had not been attended to from the year 1939 when the war broke out. Therefore we gave arbitration to all the State personnel. We gave it more particularly to the civil servants and we said that the salaries and wages of the Army, the Garda and the teachers would be assimilated into whatever came from arbitration for the civil servants. That promise was carried out and we encouraged industrial workers to go to the Labour Court, encouraged them, and we put no restriction on any terms of reference that were before the Labour Court when these people made application to them. I remember being able to say in the House during a debate that we had at last reached a point when the increased earnings had risen above whatever curve there was in the increased cost of living. Therefore it was an accurate statement for the then Minister for Finance, the present Tánaiste and Minister for Health, to say that increases in salaries and wages had outstripped any increase in the cost of living. We did not agree, of course, that the subsidies should be removed but what he said had a foundation to that extent.

That was the position, therefore, from 1933 to 1939: strict control, wages not rising, no machinery for wages to move in an upward direction, no arbitration for State personnel. Everything was kept at a low level except prices. It was in 1947 that the then Tánaiste, the present Taoiseach, warned about the economic disasters that were on every side, warned us against inflation and that inflation was going to come if wages and salaries were increased. We did increase them and eventually the most inflationary thing that was ever done was the implementation of the 1952 Budget. The impositions were regarded as so severe that the State personnel went to arbitration to get awards which had to be honoured and industrial workers also made their application to the Labour Court and got increases. That was definitely inflationary and then in addition to all that, the Minister for Finance spent in one year the £24 million of the American Aid which I had been fool enough to leave behind me.

That carried us on to 1952 and from that time on, there were other matters. I skip over some of the in-between things. I want to make an analogy in respect of 1961. Some Deputies who were in the House in 1961 will remember that we were summoned by telegram to meet on 1st September, 1961, at 11 in the morning for the purpose of considering "the granting of special powers to the Government in relation to the serious situation that has arisen by reason of the possibility of the cessation of electricity generation and the grave hardship which such a cessation would cause to the community, by reason of the interruption of essential supplies and services and the disemployment of workers."

Again this was to show how much consideration they had for the worker and how the weaker brethren would suffer if certain people in the ESB who were looking for increases in their wages got their demand. We met, having been summoned by telegram, and were faced in the first instance with a notice of motion by the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach to the effect that the Electricity (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1961, was to pass through all its stages that day, all necessary questions being put by the Chair to enable the matter to be brought to a conclusion by 5 p.m.

An emergency was created by certain employees of the Electricity Supply Board looking for more wages and to anyone who knew what the Tánaiste was playing at in 1947, the Bill presented took a similar pattern. According to the Bill we then got, the Government were to appoint a tribunal to determine the wages the electricians were to get. The determination of the tribunal was to be final, the terms of the tribunal's award were to be binding and accepted by everyone affected. It was to be unlawful for anyone to pay wages to electricians in excess of the tribunal's award.

It was to be made unlawful for anyone to pay wages other than those laid down in 1947 by that tribunal and Section 6 of that Bill laid out the offences and the penalties. It made it an offence for anybody to contravene the Act or to omit to fulfil any part of the Act and anybody who counselled or aided and abetted in such contravention or such omission was to be subject to a fine not exceeding £100, together with a further sum not exceeding £20 for each day the offence or omission was continued, or imprisonment for six months, or both. On conviction on an indictment—there was provision for an indictable offence—the fine could go as high as £500. There could be another fine not exceeding £100 for each day the offence was continued and then, at the discretion of the court—mind you, there was a discretion — there could be imprisonment for five years and penal servitude for not more than two years.

We met that day and discussed that extraordinary document and a good while before five o'clock in the afternoon, the Taoiseach had changed his mind. He had come in here talking about the various measures to prevent increases in wages that were in order, increases which were at that time, too, regarded with abhorrence as tending towards inflation, and confessed that older measures were not sufficiently strong and said it was necessary that they be taken into regulatory legislation and orders. As I say, the piece of legislation he put before the House got such a poor reception that a good deal before five o'clock the Taoiseach had decided he would withdraw certain parts when asked questions as to whether picketing would be allowed and, while plainly it was to be an offence under the legislation, we were told by the Tánaiste it was not.

Later on that afternoon we asked about the penalties and we were told: "You can take the penalties out, if you like." Finally, we were told that even though a commission was to be set up, either party to the discussion could refuse to accept its award. The remark was made that the teeth were to be withdrawn; they were not real teeth but dentures, and it was quite clear that the Dáil was not in a humour to accept these proposals. The proposals therefore disappeared in the sense that all the really serious parts were taken away. I well remember though their similarity with the minute we discovered in the office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce in 1947, where the offence was put upon the employer who paid wages above a certain figure laid down. In fact, the main offenders were to be the employers, the ESB, if they paid wages higher than those allowed by the Tribunal.

That was the procedure. From 1933 to 1939, there was strict control of wages but not prices. From 1939 to 1945, there were the Emergency Powers Orders under which profits were accumulated while salaries and wages were kept low. Then we made regulations through which we encouraged people to go to the Labour Court. We put quite a vast amount of new purchasing power into the hands of our people and it did not cause any of the economic disasters threatened by the Taoiseach: there was no inflation, none of the undesirable consequences we were warned about in the speech at Letterkenny.

Now we come to Closing the Gap. What does this pamphlet mean? It surely is aiming at a new standstill order. There is inherent in it a wage freeze. The pamphlet has no other meaning except that. Deputy Anthony Barry asked last night that if the things in it which were objected to were left out, was it then a piece of good essay writing that somebody was inspired to write and that there was no other meaning. Of course there was meaning in it. It means standstill again and the same reasons are given: unless wages and salaries stand still, the purchasing power will impact upon the goods produced and if they are too few in number, there is bound to be inflation. The pamphlet again weeps over the people who will suffer most, the people who depend upon wages and salaries for sustenance, and says it is better to suffer immediately from a standstill on wages and salaries rather than to risk inflation. Of course the teeth have again been withdrawn from this pamphlet but the whole aim is clear.

It is again the old prohibition that operated from 1933 to 1939, the old mood that was enforced by Emergency Powers Orders, preparation of which had been authorised by the present Taoiseach, and we are back again at the same old familiar round of closing down on wages and salaries because the people who get their sustenance from these wages and salaries are the people who will suffer most if inflation occurs. We are told by the Taoiseach, speaking in Limerick, that a very serious situation is arising needing a new tax and of course the Book of Estimates indicates quite clearly that the situation could be described as serious.

The Taoiseach, as I have said, has announced that the Government are considering a new system of taxation. The new system of taxation is a purchase tax. Whether the plan is that which is reported upon by the Income Taxation Commission in its Third Report, or something different, is something we will have to wait and see. But the omens are not favourable. It looks as if the purchase tax will not be something in substitution for income tax but something added to it. I should like to do my best to kill any thought of a purchase tax before even the thought gets wedged too firmly in the minds of the Government.

I want to draw attention now to the report itself. There were 11 people on the Commission on Income Taxation. Six of them reported in favour of a purchase tax, if that purchase tax were in substitution for part of income tax as at present levied; they are very particular about pointing out that they were not asked to report upon purchase tax in addition to the income tax. They did, in fact, report that in their minds income tax is a good tax. They say that the only thing that really matters, and causes trouble about income tax at the moment, is the rate at which it is being charged. It is not the system which is bad, but they say at page 28 that they have reached the conclusion unanimously that, in principle, income taxation is a good form of taxation and should be continued to be a feature of the taxation system. They add: "We think that if the weight of the tax were lessened, much of the dissatisfaction it causes would be removed."

Six members of the Commission signed the majority report and it is the majority report which says that the 11 were unanimous in thinking that a tax on income is a good system, but they would like to see the rate at which such a tax is levied reduced. Five of the 11 signed a minority report. There is one striking phrase in that minority report. It occurs at page 75; it is just simply inserted in brackets: "A purchase tax under any disguise is a wage cut". I should like to have that reiterated throughout this country in the next fortnight: "A purchase tax under any disguise is a wage cut". That is what this Government have indicated, through a couple of meetings, they are proposing for this community; in other words, another wage cut is being contemplated.

To what extent, I do not know. I do not know how far income tax will be reduced and replaced by this purchase tax. One can see the minds of the people who agree to this wage cut through the medium of a purchase tax. One can see how the thought develops. In 1952, the present Tánaiste removed the subsidies. He said there was no economic need, or social reason, for their justification; the cost of living had not risen by as much as the increase in wages and salaries. In other words, he was trying to cut down wages and salaries, and the way he did it was not by a frontal attack on wages and salaries, as proposed in the Standstill Orders, but rather to tax the things that people must buy with their money, the necessaries of life, the foodstuffs, and everything else that was subsidised. The subsidies were cut off all those things and the result was that these commodities became dearer. That achieved the same purpose as cutting wages and salaries.

We are back again at that now. It is made quite clear by the minority what they think about a purchase tax: under any disguise, it is a wage cut. They advert on page 74 to people they describe as in the middle income group. They say in paragraph 8 of the report:

It would be wrong to assume that persons in the middle-income group would necessarily benefit from the majority recommendation. A man with a wife and two children earning £1,000 a year would save £12 by a reducation of 2/- in the standard rate of income tax.

A reduction of 2/- in the £ was what was proposed by the majority. The paragraph continues:

If he spent 20 per cent. of his income on goods subject to purchase tax ... he would pay £20 in tax (assuming a rate of ten per cent.)—a net additional impost of £8.

That is the middle income group. As far as the rest are concerned it is simply a wage cut.

The figures that are given in this report are very striking. There are a few preliminary chapters in which they deal with the various people who have to pay income tax at the moment. There are 175,000 individuals—they are speaking of the year 1960-61—who are liable to income tax. There are about 6,500 limited companies also subject to it. Of course, the people who are members of these limited companies will also pay, but I imagine they are included in the 175,000 individuals. The population of this country is they say 2.9 millions. It has gone down since that report was published. It is 2.8 millions at the moment. They say that surprise may be caused by the reflection that those who pay income tax are as few as 175,000. If the population is 2.9 millions, or 2.8 millions, how does it come about that only 175,000 individuals are liable for income tax?

They say, however, that the number at work according to the most recent publication is about 1,112,000. I think that is a figure we may go on. They are the people who are gainfully occupied, but they are not the only people who pay income tax. People who are retired, and who would be outside that 1,112,000, would be amongst the 175,000. However, the position is that 175,000 people in our population are liable to income tax. It is proposed, in the commission's report, to relieve those 175,000 by reducing the rate, by lowering it by 2/-in the £. The greatest benefit, of course, from a reduction of 2/- in the standard rate would go to the big payer, those amongst the 175,000 who are the heaviest mulcted in income tax. They are certainly not amongst the poorest in the community and thus the burden of relieving them, according to the minority report, is to be shifted to a series of ordinary commodities that ordinary people will buy. It is not merely a wage cut; it is clearly a wage cut as far as the small people are concerned, but it is also a redistribution of tax and it is a redistribution in favour of the people who are well-to-do and against the people who are not so well off.

I know that the comment has been made that it seems to be very burdensome on 175,000 people in our population that they should sustain the whole burden of income tax. Remember, the counter to that is that 175,000 of our population have gathered into their hands so much of the wealth of this country that they are the only people liable for payment of income tax. If it appears to be unfair that there should be a heavy burden of income tax on that number, remember they have got the benefit otherwise. They are the people who have the greatest proportion of the wealth of the country coming into their hands as income. The proposal outlined to us is that we will seek a new and better basis of taxation. Deputy Dillon has already remarked on the euphemistic content of that phrase. It means, of course, that the Government are looking for more money. They do not see how they can get it out of present taxation and therefore they have to invent a new tax, and the new tax is a tax on wages.

In 1948, when the inter-Party Government gave the reliefs I have mentioned, amounting to nearly £18 million, the present Taoiseach was furious that these remissions were made and he told us there were only three taxes worth while from a revenue point of view. These three were drink, tobacco and income tax. He told us that as we were remitting taxes on drink and tobacco, he did not see how we could replace them when we came to the Budget. He told us that to make up the income we had lost would involve an increase in income tax of 4/6 in the £. That was the bogey with which he tried to frighten the people in the country and with which he tried to soften his own supporters, the threat that we would have to come in with a Budget later and impose heavy additional income tax.

I assume the same mentality is still working in the minds of the Government. They have apparently come to the conclusion that they cannot do any more in the way of taxation, that what was put on recently had a bad result on the consumption of drink and tobacco and apparently they do not feel too happy about having to increase the standard rate of income tax. The alternative is purchase tax. The minority report is that a tax should be levied on all commodities but they exempt goods which are essential for agricultural production, goods essential for industrial manufactures, goods essential for exports, the mainly essential foods, which leaves an opening for taxing some kinds of foods, fuel, newspapers and books, certain household goods and works of art and culture.

In the discussion on the question of income tax remission, they had had their minds directed to the possible bad effects of a tax on cheap clothing, the clothes which the people in the small income level group would have to wear. However, they did not exempt clothing and I take it that whatever tax will be put on will include tax on cheap clothing. One would not have to take long to consider the devastation which would be worked in certain homes where the income are not so good if we are to have a purchase tax and if wages are not to be adjusted to meet the new charges which will fall on the wage and salary earners.

There are many other matters to which I could refer in the minority report but there will be time for that later on. I want to comment again on the fact that the number of things which the majority recommended for exemption did not include clothing and many other things that come into the budget of the small person. The effect is again to shift the burden of taxation and to put it more on indirect taxation than on direct taxation. In a footnote on Page 73, the minority give certain figures which are to bear out a statement of theirs that the proportion of indirect taxation to the total taxation in this country is already extremely high—they say almost certainly the highest in Europe.

The statistical information which they give at the foot of Page 73—this information is taken from a paper read at the Statistical and Social Society— shows in percentages the proportion of indirect taxation to total taxation, which they describe as being extremely high, if not the highest in Europe. The figures are notable. They show that in Ireland, in 1957, 67.7 per cent of our total taxation came from indirect taxation. In Italy, it was 64 per cent; in France, it was 55 per cent; in the United Kingdom, 45 per cent; in Norway, 43 per cent; in Belgium, 40 per cent; in the Netherlands, 31 per cent and in Sweden, 29.7 per cent. They comment on the next page, Page 74, that the imposition of a purchase tax would increase that proportion and they said that central Government revenue from indirect taxation would have amounted to 74 per cent of the total if the majority recommendation had been put into operation last year.

There is apparently a proposal for purchase tax being considered. It will be sufficiently burdensome if income tax is kept at its present level and a purchase tax is levied on these commodities but it will be harder to bear if some part of the income tax is remitted and whatever is lost by that is to be looked for from the purchase tax. It is not only a question of bad distribution as between direct and indirect taxation but in respect of 175,000 of our people, those I have already mentioned as having been allowed to get so much of the community's goods under their control that they have the biggest proportion of the income that accrues in this country, it will be very burdensome if they are to be relieved of some fraction of what they pay at the moment and if that is to be levied off the mass of the community through a purchase tax.

There has been a certain amount of argument here with regard to the position in relation to employment and emigration. We have not the final figures yet for the year 1961. Presumably we shall get them when the new volume of Economic Statistics is issued prior to the Budget of this year. Then we shall see the position at, say, April, 1962. Until those figures come out, we have not anything very concrete to talk about.

But we have this to talk about. Various figures were quoted by different Ministers here and in the country as to the increase in industrial employment. I am not concerned so much with the increase in industrial employment. What is the position in regard to employment generally? I know what that is, up to and including April, 1961. The situation in 1956 was that 1,163,000 people were employed as between agricultural and non-agricultural pursuits. In 1961, the figure was 1,119,300. There were 44,000 fewer people gainfully occupied in this country in April, 1961, than there were in April, 1956. However that has changed, we have to wait and see. We do know—that being so—that a picture of 40,000 down is a very bad picture from the people who promised 100,000 new jobs in five years. They have now been in power more than five years. The results as I see them are that they have lost the 40,000 who previously were gainfully occupied in this country. There is no sign of the 100,000 new jobs.

When the 100,000 new jobs were promised, I understood that to mean 100,000 new jobs in addition to the people gainfully occupied at the time that promise was made. There is also the situation that has to be faced— though the crisis is postponed a little bit for the moment—of what will happen if the EEC does develop and if this country finds itself either a member, or as is more likely, in my opinion, an associate of the EEC. What will happen then?

The Federation of Irish Industries gave as their view that 150,000 people in industrial occupation were likely to be affected, if Irish factories were no longer to have the benefit of protection. The figure regarding farming is not so easy to discover but a publication has been issued to Deputies—the report of the inter-Departmental Committee on the Problems of Small Western Farms. In an Appendix, they calculate how much employment there is in this country on different sized holdings. They relate that to what they call the requirements. For the whole country, their conclusion, as set out in Appendix A, is that there are 161 people employed where 100 only should be employed. They say that probably some of the factors on which they have relied in making up the figures do not count so much as in England, say, where the comparison is made. Cut that figure down from 161 to 150— omit 11 people—lest there might be some exaggeration. The figure then that emerges from this pamphlet is that for every 150 actually employed, 50 would have to leave the farms; that the real requirement, for farmers to progress in this country, will be in the proportion of 100 to 150. That, again, is one-third of the people occupied on the farms.

If you take this pamphlet you will see that, as at 1961, there were an odd 400,000 people at work in agriculture, forestry and fishing. If they are to be reduced by the application of that regulator to what the Committee thought was proper to have good farm production, they would go down to 279,000. In other words, there is a possibility of 120,000 people being cleared off the land—and a lot of people have been cleared off the land already. However, the prospect here, according to this report, is that more people—and a very big number of extra people—will have to leave. Where they are to get employment locally, nobody knows.

I asked the Taoiseach a question in regard to that report and the answer I got was that the figures are not significant. Why was the report published? Why was this inter-Departmental Committee given the task of writing about and studying the farm problems in the country and drawing conclusions if their report is not to be given due weight? It might have been thought that something good would come out of it. If the Taoiseach though the figures were not significant, I do not know why he thought fit to publish the document, to have it on sale and to send a copy of it to all the members of this House.

I said the farms of this country have been denuded. The figures are remarkable. In 1926, 650,000 people found occupation on the farms of this country. Ten years later, in 1936, that figure had gone down to 613,000. In 1946, it had gone down still further to 567,000. In 1956, the tot was 445,000. In my calculation, if the figures in the Report of the inter-Departmental Committee on the Problems of Small Western Farms have any significance, the number will go down to 280,000.

It is not that the people responsible for the publication of that pamphlet are alone in saying that. Recently, I read a speech by an officer of the Department of Agriculture in which he said the farm population would have to be lowered considerably. I think he is at present Mr. Colm Barnes of the Dublin Industrial Development Association. He said that there were far too many people on the farms and that they would have to clear. He was rather anxious to know where the people, clearing off the farms, would get employment. If there are 130,000 people whose jobs are in jeopardy if we join the EEC and if, on proper farming conditions, we have employment only for what are called for, we shall lose an extra 130,000 people off the land. I think there is a pretty grim future ahead, if these calculations be right.

I have heard discussions in this House about our joining EEC. I have observed with some amusement but with no little anxiety the gyrations of the Taoiseach who sent in his request for consideration of our application. He said, however, he wanted to call particular attention to our disabilities. Apparently he was told that that did not make for proper consideration as a full member and he amended it saying more or less that we were ready to accept anything they gave us. Then the question was posed: What about defence associations, what about foreign policy?—and he threw in his hand on that. In effect, he said to an American journalist: Oh, anything they ask we will give them.

The last thing of all is that the present Minister for Justice was asked to ease the situation as much as he could with regard to the possibility that we might have to amend the Constitution under which this country operates. The Minister for Justice spoke and said there might have to be some formal amendments. One of these days, we shall be told, of course, that the amendments to be required are very serious and fundamental but we are ready to accept them. In other words, the Taoiseach, in his gyrations around the Continent, threw in his hand on everything and came home and boasted that our application for full membership had been accepted.

Exporters' Review is issued quarterly. In the fourth quarterly issue of 1962 there is an article on the Common Market published by Córas Tráchtála —more or less a Government institution. They say:

No decision was reached on whether to accept our request to open negotiations or await the outcome of Britain's negotiations but the Council agreed—

—the Council of Ministers of the EEC—

—after discussion to negotiate with Ireland under Article 237 of the Treaty—that is for full membership—

—and they add—

—on the understanding that the negotiations should be opened without any guarantee as to the form of agreement to be concluded.

That is the way our application has been accepted.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 14th March, 1963.
Top
Share