Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 28 Mar 1963

Vol. 201 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 45 — Defence.

Minister for Defence (Mr. Bartley)

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £6,339,200 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1964, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Cosanta, lena n-áirítear Seirbhísí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin; le haghaidh Pá agus Costais Óglaigh na hÉireann; agus chun Deontas-i-gCabhair a íoc.

Is mór an méid airgid atáim ghá iarraidh sa Mheastachán seo. Tá os cionn £600,000 de bhreis ann thar anuraidh. Dhá rud do-sheachainte faoi ndear é a bheith amhlaidh—siad siúd ceannach trí heiliceaptair ar archinn an Rialtais de bharr choibhriú dhaoine ag sneachta an gheimhridh agus in ndáil le sábháil ó chontúirt ar an bhfairrge, agus soláthar taisceán éadaigh agus ábhar éidí a raibh géar-ghá leis. Is ar éigean gur cuibhe meastachán na Roinne Cosanta a bheith thíos le cos-tas na heiliceaptar, ach san am céanna níl aon bhrainse eile den seirbhís phoiblí a d'fhéadfadh gníomhú go h-éfeachtach thar cheann an Rialtais chun na críche seo ach Aer-Chór an Airm. Ar an ábhar sin, titeann sé ar chrann na Roinne Cosanta a bheith i bhfeighil na seirbhísí nua seo.

Tá iarrtha orainn cathlán eile agus scabhdrún armúrtha eile a chur ar fáil don Chongo ach idir an dá aonad ní bheidh mórán thar chúig céad fear ar fad. Chuile sheans go n-iarrfar saighdiúiri ar an tír seo chomh fada is a bhéas misiún míleata sa Chongo ag na Náisiúin Aontaithe. I ndiaidh an oiread sin námhadais don fhórsa idirnáisiúnta a bheith curtha i leith mhuintir an Chongo, ba taithneamhach iad na tuairiscí ar an bhfáilte chroiúil a cuireadh roimh na hÉireannaigh ag iondúirí bhailte mór áirithe agus ar an impí agus ar an achaine uatha le h-iad a choinneál ina measc. Tá súil agam gur gearr eile go mbí deire le gá saighdiúirí eachtracha a bheith faoi bhratach na Náisiún Aontaithe sa gCongo—ach luath nó mall is féidir linn, a gcomh-Éireannaigh, a bheith bródúil as an gcaoi a d'iompraíodar iad féin agus as an meas atá ar an gcabhair a thugadar an fhad agus a bhíodar ag fónachtáil thar lear i gcúis na síochána domhanda.

Is mian liom buíochas a ghlacadh, in athuair, leo siúd, daoine agus cóluch-taí a sholáthraigh soláistí do na h-óglaigh thar lear. Cé go bhfuil feabhas mór ar an saol sa Chongo acu le tamall anois thar mar ba chás do na céad dreamanna a chuaigh amach ann as Éirinn, san am céanna is mór an sás agus an só do na fir seo againne an dea-ghuí agus an buan-chuimhne atá taobh thiar de na soláistí breise seo dóibh, agus, ar an gcaoi sin, cothaíonn siad meanma na bhfear. I ndáil leis an bpriacal seo de sheirbhís i gcéin, is ceart cuimhniú orthu siúd sa mbaile ar thit sé go trom orthu: na foirne na ceannasa, ochtaí agus na córaí a mb'éigin dóibh feachaint chuige nach mbeadh ar na h-aonaid amach ach an scoth de threalamh, de eagrú is de oileadh, mar ba gnách le gach aonad eile rompu. Ba luide a gcabhair agus a n-ábaltacht chuige seo a raíbh ag imeacht uathu amach, ach, in ainneoin sin, níor leo ab fhailli é. Tá siad le moladh.

Faoin Nollaig coimisiúnadh fiche oifigeach nea-choimisiúnta ar éirigh leo i gcúrsa i gcomhair ábhar oifigigh. Ceapacháin riaracháin agus stórais is mó a bhéas ag na h-oifigigh nua seo. Is mór an creidiúint dóibh gur chruthaíodar go h-an-mhaith sa scrúdú a cuireadh orthu. Táthar ag meá cén uair a bhéas an céad chúrsa eile dá short ann.

Bíonn an tseirbhís chabhlaigh ag plé i gcónaí le cosaint iascaigh mhara. Ach tá cúram eile uirthi freisin. Bíonn sí ag faire i gcónaí ina bunáit in Inis Sionnach i gcomhair scéalta cruatain agus contúirte ó shoithigh ar an bhfairrge agus ó shoithigh aer os cionn na fairrge; agus bíonn sí réidh i gcónaí chun cuidiú le gach iarracht tarrthála taobh istigh dá raon loing-seoireachta.

Sé a fhearacht céanna ag an Aer-Chór á—taobh amuigh dá phríomhdhualgas, comhlíonann sé feidhmeanna eile, mar shompla, tréineáil phíolóití do Aer Lingus.

Tá ar fáil uaidh freisin, seirbhís ghriangrafadóireachta ón aer do ranna rialtais ach go mór-mhór don Suirbhéireacht Ordanáis. Tá an tseirbhís seo ag eírigh níos tábhachtaí le h-imeacht aimsire i gcomhchéim le dul-ar-aghaidh na h-eolaíochta i gcoitinne.

Tá mór-chuid de na fórsaí ins an Slua Muirí agus An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. Tá an náisiún faoi chomaoin ag an dá dhream deóntacha seo a thugann an oiread sin dá gcuid ama agus dúrachta i rith na bliana agus ins na campaí Samhraidh le ceard na cosanta náisiúnta a fhoghlaim.

Maireann i gcónaí cúrsaí tréineála na bprintíseach san Aer-Chór agus san Arm. Is iondual go gceaptar cúigear caogad de phrintísigh do Scoil an Airm agus suas le seisear tríochad don Aer-Chór de bharr gach comórtais printíseachta faoi seach acu. Tugann teagascóirí oilte uathu cruinneolas ar cheirdeanna iomadúla. Tá aithint cheirde le fáil ar an tréineáil seo óna h-eagraíochta cheard-chumann ach na cúrsaí a bheith críochnaithe go sásúlacht na n-údarás míleata.

Cé nach beadaí é an saighdiúir tuigeann sé an difir idir chóiríocht mhaith, measartha agus dona. Ní dóigh liom gur féidir a rá go bhfuil sí go dona anois in aon dún nó stáisiún. Le blianta beaga anuas, tógadh hallaí itheacháin agus tithe chócaireachta nua, aeracha, agus feabhsaíodh na ceathrúnaí. codlata. Tá éadach ola ar na h-urláir, mataí urláir cois leaba agus troscán nua-aoiseach ins na ceathrúnaí. Má bhíonn timpeallacht an tsaighdiúir taithneamhach beidh snas agus éifeacht dá réir ar an saighdiúireacht agus beidh sé níos sásta slí maireachtála a dhéanamh di. Tuigeann foireann cheannais an airm do na cúinsí seo, agus níl sí faillíoch iontu.

Taobh amuigh de cheist shaighdiúirí don Chongo, sí an chosaint shibhialta ba mhó práinne agus priacail san mbliain atá imithe tharainn. Is dócha gur mar sin a bhéas, an fhad is a bhéas blas adamhach ar aighneas idirnáisiúnta. Ach an oiread le tír bheag ar bith eile, níl aon neart againn ar aon chnámh spáirne idir na cinn mhóra; ach caithfimid breathnú amach inár gcomhair féin i ndáil leis seo— agus sin díreach mar tá an eagraíocht, a dtugtar Chosaint Shibhialta uirthi, ghá dhéanamh dúinn. Is mór atá an tír faoi chomaoin ag na diograiseoirí deontacha seo atá án-eagrú is á n-ullmhú á gcoiriú is á n-oileadh féin ar mhaithe leis an gcomharsain i gcoinne an uafáis adamaigh a bhfuil an oiread sin faitís ar an gcine daonna roimhe de bharr mí-réitigh idirnáisiúnta.

Chuathas ar aghaidh leis an earcaíocht agus leis an tréineáil i rith na bliana. De bharr obair na bliana tá trí mhile comhalta sa mbreis san eagraíocht anois a fháganns deich míle agus seacht gcéad de neart intí ar fad. Ní rabhthas sásta le foghlaim agus tréineáil leo féin—reachtáileadh cleachtais gníomhachta freisin leis an bhfoghlaim agus an treineáil sin a thastáil. Bhí na cleachtais sin sáchréaddúil ainneoin an crot mar dhóigh dhe a bhí orthu. Chonaiceas cuid de na cleachtais seo agus chuaidh stuaim agus deaslámhacht na gcleachtaiseóiri i bhfeidhm orm. Is mór an cúnamh iad chun barr feabhais a chur ar inniúlacht na mball, agus chun esprit-de-corps agus coimhlint na gcarad a chothú ina measc. B'ait le duine “na h-Éamoinn” seo a fheiceál ag obair as láimh a chéile ag fuascailt faidhbe tarrthála. Cogadh nó síocháin, is fóintiúl an oiliúint í seo am ar bith agus is fánach mar d'fheadfadh si fónachtáil don charaid nó don chomharsain agus an oiread sin cor is féidir leis an gnáthshaol a chur dhe. Mar sin, is maith ann An Chosaint Shibhialta.

This Estimate is for the sum of £9,652,400 gross and, after the deduction of Appropriations in Aid, £9,508,700 net, an increase of £660,600 over the net estimate for 1962-63. It will be seen that the increase is largely accounted for by a provision of £273,000 for helicopters and an increased provision of £237,949 for clothing, both of which I will be referring to further in the course of my statement.

Deputies will notice that the Estimate is presented in a revised format which brings together under single subheads items which were previously scattered over a number of subheads. For instance, the entire pay of the Permanent Defence Force is now concentrated in one subhead, as are also the Permanent Defence Force allowances. It is hoped that these changes will make it easier for the House to obtain a picture of the proposed expenditure under the principal broad headings.

The estimate for the pay of the Permanent Defence Force is, as usual, based on the full peace establishment of 1,359 officers and 11,607 men, with deductions in respect of the numbers by which the actual strength is likely to be below establishment over the year. The net average strength for which the Estimate provides is 1,148 officers, 110 cadets and 7,500 other ranks.

I think that the House has found it convenient on previous occasions that, before proceeding to an analysis of the Estimate, a reasonably comprehensive survey should be make of the work of the Department, the Defence Forces and the Civil Defence organisation during the previous financial year, and I propose, therefore, to follow that course again on this occasion.

During the past year, the policy of providing a contingent for the United Nations force in the Congo has been continued by the Government. We have in the Congo at present the 38th Battalion and the No. 2 Armoured Car Squadron. The latter unit, consisting of 95 officers and men, was the first of its kind to be supplied by this country, and is equipped with vehicles provided by the United Nations. In addition, there are some 50 officers and non-commissioned officers employed on miscellaneous staff duties, mainly at the Force Headquarters at Leopoldville. One of these, a Colonel, is Chief of Staff to the Force Commander. In all, a strength of between 800 and 900 officers and men has been maintained in the Congo throughout the past year. They have upheld the high standard of conduct and efficiency set by our troops in the Congo from the outset. None of our men was killed in action during the year, but I regret that one officer and a non-commissioned officer were killed accidentally.

During December and January last, the 38th Battalion had a major role in the most recent operations in Katanga Province. Their objective was the important town of Kipushi which they succeeded in taking virtually without using force. The unit suffered only one minor casualty. Later they established excellent relations with the townspeople. The 38th Battalion is now located at the important Katangan mining centres of Kolwezi and Jadot-ville.

The prospects of settled conditions in the Congo are now better and the United Nations is reducing the strength of its force there. The next Irish Battalion and Armoured Car Squadron to go to the Congo will be of a reduced total strength of approximately 500 officers and men compared with a total of 800 in the case of the 38th Battalion and the No. 2 Armoured Car Squadron. We shall all welcome the day when the presence of a United Nations force in the Congo will no longer be necessary.

In August last, we supplied two officers from our Congo units to the UN military observers in New Guinea, and we have one officer on duty in Palestine.

I once again wish to thank the individuals and firms who have provided comforts for our troops overseas. While the conditions under which the troops now serve in the Congo are considerably improved since the early days of the undertaking, the additional comforts are a valuable contribution to the welfare and morale of the troops.

I now leave the realm of overseas commitments and turn to matters closer home, but not without expressing appreciation of the continued work of the staffs, commands and corps which have succeeded in ensuring, despite difficulties, that the organisation, equipping and training of the units sent to the Congo have been maintained at a very high standard, and have at the same time, despite the absence of so many of our troops overseas, carried on the trying and less spectacular home duties and training.

Twenty former non-commissioned officers who successfully completed a potential officers' course were appointed officers in December to fill appointments as stores officer, administrative officer and assistant quartermaster. The question of when the next such course will be held is under consideration.

The Naval Service continues to be occupied with the demanding problem of fishery protection. The service provides, on behalf of the Department of Transport and Power, a 24-hour service for the receipt and dissemination of marine distress messages and for the co-ordination of rescue efforts. It also takes part in air-sea rescue operations as required, within the limit of its resources.

Not alone does the Air Corps fulfil a military task but it also operates a scheme for the training of pilots for Aer Lingus. This Corps is finding great difficulty in obtaining and retaining personnel because of outside competition. Another feature of the Corps' activities is aerial photography on behalf of the Ordnance Survey and a number of Government Departments and Offices. The Corps will also be responsible for the operation of the helicopter service.

An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil and An Slua Muiri continue to supply a large proportion of our military force. It gives me great pleasure once again to acknowledge the debt we owe to the members of these components of the Defence Forces for the time and effort which they devote to training, and especially for their attendance at the annual summer camps.

The schemes of training of apprentices in Scoil Phrintísigh an Airm and in the Air Corps continue. Upwards of 55 apprentices are appointed as a result of each annual competition for Scoil Phrintísigh an Airm while up to 36 are appointed from each such competition for the Air Corps. Training is given by skilled instructors in a wide variety of trades, and the trades union organisations have agreed that personnel trained and qualified under the Schemes may be accepted as journeymen and, on return to civil life, admitted as members of the appropriate trade unions.

In 1962, teams from Scoil Eachaíochta an Airm competed in eight International Horse Shows—Dublin, London, Lucerne, Barcelona, Harris-burg, Washington, New York and Toronto. At these shows they won seven first, seven second and four third prizes. Teams from An Scoil competed also at 17 Irish provincial shows.

It has been decided that teams from An Scoil will attend six International Shows in 1963—Nice, Rome, Dublin, Harrisburg (USA), New York and Toronto. This relatively light programme of International Shows will enable An Scoil to concentrate on training and building up the team.

Four horses for An Scoil have been acquired to date in the financial year 1962-63—one at £2,000, two at £650 and one at £495. As Deputies will see from the Estimates, the provision for the purchase of horses in 1963-64 has been increased to £12,000 as against £7,000 in 1962-63. In this connection I would like to correct an impression which appears to be widespread despite a categorical statement to the contrary, made by my predecessor on 18th April, 1961, when replying to the debate on the 1961-62 Estimate—namely, that there is a specific limit to the amount which may be paid for a horse for An Scoil. There is, in fact, no such limit. Each case is considered on its merits but naturally the Horse Purchase Board considers that it is incumbent on it to buy to the best advantage.

Last year, I referred to the arrangements being made for the inclosure of portion of the Curragh in accordance with the provisions of the Curragh of Kildare Act, 1961. The inclosure was effected in time for the Irish Derby and, as a condition precedent to the inclosure, a number of sheep-grazing rights commensurate with the area involved were extinguished.

Steps are being taken at present to prepare by-laws under the Act in relation to the Curragh and the management and control of it. These by-laws will be designed primarily to prevent unauthorised use of the property and to control effectively the exercise of sheep-grazing rights.

Returns from the local authorities show that in the course of the past twelve months there has been an over-all net increase, allowing for wastage, of some 3,000 volunteers in the Civil Defence organisation, making the current strength approximately 10,700.

I must make special mention of the continued improvement in the position of the warden service. County chief wardens have been selected for each county and about two-thirds of them have undergone courses in the Civil Defence School. Similarly, sub-county wardens have been selected in all counties and these will be trained on lines similar to the county chief wardens. Greatest progress has, however, been made at district warden level. For this key appointment, some 630 persons are required. Of these about 560 or 90 per cent of the total have been selected and about 300 have been trained.

I am happy to say that we have got an excellent response from people who have the qualities of leadership to accept the responsibilities of district warden. Our volunteers in this field are very representative of various classes and professions. In some counties great progress in the training of District Wardens is being made by resorting to short full-time courses, of about a week's duration. This arrangement has been found feasible in Counties Roscommon, Galway and Sligo-Leitrim, with the result that these counties are now well advanced in their district warden organisation. Other counties have made great progress in their warden training over a period of months, the training being carried out locally by specially trained district warden instructors.

At local level, training of members of the rescue, welfare, casualty and auxiliary fire services continued steadily and there was a marked spread in the number and location of training centres.

Similarly, the number of training courses conducted by my Department at An Scoil Cosanta Sibhialta during the year also increased. In all there were 22 courses in which a total of 609 persons participated. The courses could be broadly described as being in two categories—those for potential instructors, for the local Civil Defence organisation, for the Army and the Garda, and those for the training of the county control element of Civil Defence.

In the course of the year, ten new fire engines were made available to selected local authorities for the training of the Auxiliary Fire Service. These engines also constitute a significant addition to the national stock of firefighting equipment and it is intended to provide a further 15 in the course of the next few years.

It has always been recognised by my Department that a very important contribution to the membership and skill of the Casualty Service of Civil Defence could be made by the Unit members of Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann, the St. John Ambulance Brigade of Ireland and the Order of Malta Ambulance Corps. The existing arrangements for the participation of members of these three societies in Civil Defence had not proved as satisfactory as was originally hoped and so it was necessary, during the year, to review these arrangements in conjunction with the joint committee of the three societies. Following this, I had discussions with the heads of the three societies, at which substantial agreement was reached on revised measures to govern the co-ordination and participation of these organisations in Civil Defence.

Last year, I referred to the question of providing control centres at county and regional levels. From surveys and examinations which technical officers of my Department have made in a number of counties, it appears that, contrary to what had been hoped, it may be exceedingly difficult to set up control centres in existing public buildings. On account of this and other difficulties there has not been the progress in this work that had been expected. Every effort will be made to achieve the maximum progress in the establishment of these centres in the coming year, and the provisions made in the Estimate for 1962/63 are being repeated, namely £50,000 for grants in respect of county and sub-county control centres and £10,000 for regional control centres.

Two of the main activities during the year have been local exercises and local training courses. Local exercises have shown a considerable increase in numbers and they may be expected to show a further increase during the coming year. Indeed, I may say that such exercises are not only important from the point of view of organisational well-being and esprit de corps but they are essential for the development and maintenance of an efficient organisation. As far as it was possible I made a point of attending these exercises and courses and other civil defence functions during the year and it was gratifying to me to see that on all occasions members of the Oireachtas were taking a keen interest in the development of Civil Defence. Their active interest and encouragement can be a very significant factor, because the building up, in peacetime, of an efficient Civil Defence organisation is—as I have said on another occasion—uphill work that is sometimes frustrating and unrewarding for those engaged in it, be they volunteers or officials.

Turning to the subheads, I may commence by observing that a number of them show little change from last year. I will confine myself, therefore, to speaking about those in which there is a substantial variation or in which specific comment would otherwise be helpful to the House.

In Subhead B—Pay of the Permanent Defence Force—provision is made for a somewhat smaller strength than was provided for in 1962/63, and this explains the saving of £14,625. Subhead C—Allowances of the Permanent Defence Force—shows an increase of £10,045. This is mainly attributable to increased rates of ration allowance. In Subhead D, which relates to the pay, allowances, grants and other expenses of the Reserve Defence Force, there is an increase of £31,730. In recent years, the tendency has been towards better and longer attendances at training and courses, particularly on the part of An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil, and this necessitates the increased provision which I have mentioned.

Subhead G—Civil Defence—makes provision for £247,391, much the same as the provision for 1962-63. The sum of £91,948 for grants to local authorities includes £50,000 in respect of county and sub-county controls, to which I have already referred, about £18,500 in respect of central and local training, about £11,600 in respect of storage, servicing and maintenance of equipment and £10,600 in respect of administration. The sum of £159,739 for equipment and stores includes £71,600 in respect of warden service equipment, £22,600 in respect of auxiliary fire service equipment, £20,200 in respect of casualty service equipment, £18,300 for uniform clothing for civil defence personnel, £14,000 for instructional equipment for the Civil Defence School and smaller sums for rescue service and welfare service equipment. The sum of £21,000 for regional controls, etc., includes the specific provision of £10,000 in respect of the regional controls which I mentioned earlier, £9,000 for certain equipment and £2,000 for national and regional exercises and competitions.

The provision of £450,000 under subhead H for Defensive Equipment is the same as that for 1962-63. As I have stated on previous occasions, we have not yet built up anything like full mobilisation stocks of defensive equipment and proposed purchases for 1963-64 represent only a further instalment towards this end. While we do not spend a lot of money on equipment of this nature, I can assure Deputies that what we do spend is spent to the very best advantage in the purchase of the most modern and up-to-date conventional arms available.

Subhead J—Mechanical Transport— shows an over-all increase of £36,200 as compared with 1962-63, £5,000 of which is accounted for by increased vehicle maintenance costs. The provision of £116,520 for capital expenditure on vehicles is £31,200 higher than the corresponding provision last year. This is due to an increase of £28,000 in the provision for the purchase of new vehicles, including £16,800 for artillery prime movers, £6,100 for a fire tender and £6,500 for an aircraft refueller, and to an increase of £3,200 on advances, which will be repaid, to officers for the purchase of motor cars for use on duty with An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil, An Slua Muiri, An Cór Breathnadóirí and An tSeirbhís Cosanta Sibhialta.

Subhead M—Clothing and Equipment—shows an increase of £237,949 as compared with the corresponding provision in 1962-63. The principal reason for this is the proposed purchase, at an estimated cost of £200,203, of a relatively small reserve stock of soldiers' uniform—about two-thirds of a normal year's requirements of the principal items. This will serve a dual purpose. First, it will enable essential issues to be made to soldiers as they are required without having to await deliveries against the current year's contracts, which are often slow. Issues which have to be made from the reserve stock will be replaced subsequently from normal annual purchases. Secondly, the reserve stock will help to meet a special need of additional uniform clothing in the event of an emergency.

Subhead O.1 — General Stores — shows a net increase of £21,312 as compared with 1962-63. This is made up of a gross increase of £73,078 under certain headings, partially offset by reductions totalling £51,766 under others. The largest increases are £44,608 in respect of signal equipment and £21,135 in respect of radiac instruments, items which would be particularly useful in maintaining communications and saving life in the event of hostilities involving destruction of telephonic communication and the presence of radio-active fall-out. The decrease under the heading of Aircraft is due to the non-repetition of a provision of £40,307 made in 1962-63 for a Dove aeroplane, partially offset by some new increases, such as £7,000 for a new Link Trainer and an additional £6,000 approximately for maintenance.

As Deputies are already aware from the announcement of the Minister for Transport and Power in this House on 22nd January last, An Rialtas has decided to establish a helicopter service for air/sea rescue work and for other emergencies. This service will be under the aegis of my Department and Subhead O.2 of this Estimate makes provision, in the sum of £273,000, for the purchase during 1963-64 of three helicopters—£250,000; additional aviation spirit for their operation— £3,000; and special training courses abroad for pilots—£20,000.

The provision under Subhead S— Buildings—is practically the same as that for 1962/63. About threequarters of the total provision is required for the ordinary maintenance of barrack buildings and roads, the balance being in respect of miscellaneous new works.

With regard to soldiers' married quarters, I might mention that 162 new houses have now been erected in recent years throughout the country. A further eight houses are at present in course of erection and are expected to be completed in 1963/64. It is hoped to commence the erection of a further 20 new houses in Athlone in replacement of old married quarters which have been condemned and which could not be modernised, and it is the intention to continue the policy of supplementing local authorities' efforts in the provision of housing by providing, from the Vote for Defence, houses for married soldiers at centres throughout the country where the need is greatest from time to time.

While dealing with this subhead, I think I should also mention that some new dining halls and cookhouses for soldiers have been built over the past few years and many of the older type dining halls and cookhouses, as well as older type billet rooms which are structurally sound, have been modernised. Considerable progress has also been made in providing modern toilet and ablution facilities in barracks, the aim generally being to bring the accommodation for soldiers living in barracks up to modern standards of comfort, cleanliness and hygiene. It is the intention to continue with this work.

Subhead T, at £96,035, shows an increase of £7,405 over the corresponding provision last year. The increase is accounted for largely by the necessity for furniture for a new girls' school erected at the Curragh and for additional bedding.

Under this subhead, also, attention continues to be given to the improvement of amenities for soldiers living in barracks. A programme in this regard which has been pursued for some years past has been speeded up in the last few years. The old timber forms and trestle tables used in dining halls are being replaced with modern tubular steel chairs and plastic topped tables and, in the billets, the floors are being covered with attractive coloured linoleum, and steel wardrobes, new beds, bedside lockers, bedside rugs, writing tables, etc., are being provided.

The increase of £6,473 in Subhead U is mainly caused by increased transport charges and that of £15,042 in Subhead V is caused by the increased rates of employers' contributions.

Provision for Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann to the extent of £23,000 is made under Subhead AA. It shows an increase of £6,550 compared with 1962/63. This arises from increased expenditure on salaries, pensions fund contributions, rent, rates, telephone charges, heating, lighting, travelling costs, etc. It is necessary, therefore, to provide for a sum of £13,550 for the normal activities of the society as against £10,000 for this purpose in 1962/63. Furthermore it is considered necessary to provide for a grant of £5,000 to the Emergency Relief Fund compared with £2,000 in 1962/63, as there was a considerable amount paid out of this fund in 1962/63 towards relief for victims of natural disasters. The provision for the White Russian refugees from North China and the State contribution to the International Committee remain at £4,000 and £450 respectively.

The year 1963 is the centenary year of the foundation of the International Red Cross and it is an interesting coincidence that the Irish ratification of the 1949 Geneva Conventions for the protection of war victims comes into force this year. The society in this country is continuing its excellent work in many spheres. White Russian refugees from North China continue to be maintained at Naomh Aindrias, Rathmines, and in the field of international emergency relief the society in the course of the past year has contributed over £2,500 for the victims of the Iranian earthquake, £1,000 for Algerian refugees and £500 in connection with the Pakistan flood disaster. I should like to renew the appeal for help for the Freedom from Hunger Campaign which I made last year, and I take the opportunity of once more thanking the society for its great efforts in the various fields of humanitarian relief.

I think that I have now covered the Estimate in reasonable detail but will, of course, be glad, when closing, to answer any questions that may be raised in the debate and to supply any additional information requested.

General MacEoin

The Minister has succeeded in telling us a good deal but in not telling us as much as we should like to hear. There are many points one would like to raise on this Estimate but I do not suppose any useful purpose would be served by so doing.

I should like the Minister to tell us if there is any truth whatever in the assertion that there have been many resignations of officers from the Forces during the year, that conditions are not as good as they might be and that there is dissatisfaction. Any such statement in newspapers or by people should be dealt with by the Minister or the Government at the earliest opportunity. On this Estimate, the Minister should avail himself of the opportunity to deny the allegation or to explain what is happening or to give the House some information. Some uncertainty and uneasiness is created in the minds of the members of the House and of the public generally in this respect. I am disappointed that the Minister did not refer to it at all as if it were a matter of no importance. It is a very serious matter. Anything that affects the Defence Forces of the country reflects on us all and is of a serious nature.

Before proceeding with the few comments I have to make, I want to join with the Minister in congratulating our forces in the Congo on the manner in which they have discharged their duties. Again, there was undue delay in contradicting the stories told in certain newspapers of the conduct of our troops in the Congo. It was an unfounded charge but it was allowed to be bandied about as if it were truth for a considerable time before it was tackled. When the United Nations report became available, it was shown that the charge was completely untrue. Those of us acquainted with members of the Defence Forces knew the allegation must be untrue as it was not in their nature to be guilty of such acts. Human nature being what it is, it could happen, but the charge should have been denied immediately when there was no truth in it.

While I do not seek information about the Defence Forces or anybody in it, I was informed that there was some dissatisfaction among officers, NCOs and men over the method of recruiting forces for the Congo. It appears there are emoluments and advantages to be secured by being sent to the Congo. There have been charges of partisanship. I hope that is not true but it is said there were some officers who got a couple of tours while others who thought they were entitled to it did not get any. That is a matter for day to day administration but I should like the Minister to impress upon the officers making these selections that they should be careful not to create disturbing factors in the Army.

I am anxious to know if the Minister is satisfied with the pay and allowances now in operation in the Defence Forces. Members of the Forces do not strike and therefore there is the responsibility upon the Minister and on the Government to ensure that the rates of pay and allowances are sufficient to meet the increased cost of living, and so on. I notice the Minister has said in a bland way that there have been increases in allowances but he does not say that these allowances are usually eaten up by the increased cost of living. I am inclined to believe that they are not sufficient.

It is a comfort to note that the conditions in the Congo are improving and that the United Nations will not require so large a force as before. Let us hope the time is coming soon when they will all be withdrawn, but until the mission is completed, I suppose we must send them.

One thing I am pleased to hear about is this potential officers course for quartermasters, and so forth, and that 20 former non-commissioned officers were commissioned. That is a step in the right direction, that the private soldier entering the Army can believe the old saying that he has a field marshal's baton in his knapsack. That is how the Defence Forces should operate and I am glad to know it is working out satisfactorily.

In regard to the naval forces, I do not know what are the intentions of the Government or the Minister in regard to replacing our present naval equipment. It would appear that the vessels are completely out of date and he has not given us an indication of his intention to reorganise the service and purchase new vessels. There are complaints that our coasts are being daily raided by the fishing vessels of foreign countries and that our fishermen are not protected and our rights are not protected. I should be glad to know from the Minister what he proposes to do in regard to the service in the future.

I do not want to get into the helicopter question again but I am pleased that the Minister and the Government have decided to acquire these aircraft. It shows the value and strength of public opinion and what it can do. These helicopters will be valuable in protecting our people and effecting rescues. I hope the necessity does not arise but if it does they will be available.

It is satisfactory to note in regard to apprentices in the various schools that they will be accepted into the unions on returning to civilian life. It is important that that service should be extended because they get a very good training, and the discipline and training is of greater value than is appreciated. I want to impress upon the Minister and the Government the necessity for extending these apprenticeship courses as far as possible.

I put down a series of questions to the Minister last week in regard to the Equitation School but the replies were not very satisfactory. I may mention in passing that I had asked him if he would tell me the prices paid for horses from 1958 to date. He said it was not customary to do so. Yet to-day he has no hesitation in saying they paid £2,000 for one horse, £650 for another and £495 for another. He does not tell us what their ages were or if they were untrained or fully-trained horses. Have they got them yet? Have any of them been sold? Has the £2,000 horse been sold?

However, that is not exactly what I wanted to know. I wanted to know what is the method now adopted for the purchase of these horses. Is there a board of officers and civilians, or are they purchased by civilians only? If so, who are the civilians? What is the position if the Army are anxious to purchase certain horses and the advisers say they are not up to international standard? Is it true that one horse was left to the Army at £650 or £700 but was declared not to be up to international standard, that he was then bought and is now one of the greatest horses in the Italian jumping team? Is it true that quite recently £3,000 was paid for him? Is it true that £2,000 was paid for another horse not worth tuppence which was sold to the knacker? These are disturbing matters.

The Minister says he is satisfied with the system of training for our jumping teams in regard to both men and horses and that it was not his intention to bring in any trainer of either national or international repute. He was satisfied that everything was going well. How can he say that? I am sure our display at Ballsbridge last year was as painful to him as it was to me. This is no reflection whatever on the officers. I remember previously when we had riders as good as they were, but until we brought in Rodzanko, they were not able to utilise their experience to bring the team up to the required international standard. None of these officers was capable of imparting the knowledge they had. I am satisfied that we have excellent officers in charge of the school to-day. They are good riders themselves and they have a good knowledge of horses, but they are not able to impart that knowledge to others.

The Minister says that in 1962 we attended horse shows at Dublin, London, Lucerne, Berne, Barcelona, Harrisburg, Washington, New York and Toronto. He says that at these shows they won seven first, seven second and four third prizes. In how many competitions did they take part, and what percentage do those successes represent? How many firsts did we get in Dublin last year in the autumn show? I am not concerned about the prizes we won at the Spring Show. It is the international competitions in which we are interested. That is where we must do our best to show we have horses in Ireland capable of reaching international standard. It is an extraordinary situation that it is the Italians who are now upholding the tradition of Irish horses and not the Irish jumping team. Were it not for the Italian jumping team, the reputation of Irish horses at present would be very low indeed.

I asked the Minister if he was satisfied with the present system of purchase and the present system of training. His answer to that was "Yes". I also asked him if it was his intention to secure the services of a trainer of international repute. His reply to that part of the question was that he did not intend to seek the services of such a trainer. I am satisfied there was never any restriction upon the price the Army could pay for a horse. The only question was this: "Is he worth it?" It is only nonsense to say there was such a restriction. It must be realised that a horse does not come to maturity until he is seven or eight years of age, that he is only at his best when he is eight or nine and that it takes long and careful training to bring him up to international standard. Sometimes you can buy green horses cheaply, but sometimes you may have to pay more for them than they appear to be worth.

There are no longer Irish fences in international shows. We have to face the competition set for us by the international code. It is imperative that we get a trainer who knows how to impart the required knowledge to both men and horses. I am told there is no longer a band in the school and that no music is played in the jumping arena. We cannot expect horses not accustomed to music to stand still and steady when they enter the international arena and music is played. We should even have a team of cheerers and shouters to accustom the horses to international conditions. I remember when the band was an essential part in training men and horses.

I hope the Minister will tell us exactly what he has in mind and if mistakes have been made, he should not conceal them. He said it was not customary to give the information but if there have been losses on the purchase of horses, we should be told. The matter should not be cloaked because if an attempt is made to cloak it, the matter assumes huge dimensions. The Minister should consider seriously the advisability of getting somebody to train them. If he cannot, we will have to do the best we can.

On the question of uniforms, I should like to know, in regard to the purchase of £200,000 worth of material, whether this will be new material, or will we still retain the old type. Is this new material?

Mr. Bartley

No. It is a reserve stock of standard material.

General MacEoin

The old cloth still?

Mr. Bartley

Yes.

General MacEoin

Was there not a decision that we would buy no more of that old blanket cloth?

Mr. Bartley

No, I do not think so.

General MacEoin

There was. We decided that we would not buy any more of it.

Mr. Bartley

The Deputy will recall that there was a crisis last year in Cuba.

General MacEoin

The Minister has £200,000 and now is the time to try to get the good material for the reservists and everyone else. If the Minister is not doing that, I would ask him to reconsider it.

Mr. Bartley

I am sure the Deputy knows the British have said that they cannot get material as good as it for their Army.

General MacEoin

If the Minister looks it up, he will see that there was a decision that we would get new material of which we would be proud.

Mr. Bartley

The Deputy knows, with regard to the new uniform, that the main object to be achieved is a new design, a more attractive design. He knows that.

Mr. Corish

Dior.

Mr. Bartley

Yes.

General MacEoin

Yes, but anyhow you could not have very much design with the blanket material. It was very warm cloth but it did not help to keep men in the Army.

The next point is: are we having difficulty in getting recruits? Is one of the reasons we are not up to the strength we want that we cannot get the men, or is it that they have all left the country? I should like the Minister to tell us what the recruiting position is. In regard to cadets, I think that if after six months they are found to be unsuitable, their parents should be informed and they should be taken out of the Army. It is very disconcerting for them to be there for 12 months and then told they must pack their bags. There has been dissatisfaction on the ground also that some cadets apparently were told that if they were good athletes and so on that was as much part of their examination as the technical end and apparently they were misled. However, the point I am making is that they should not be retained any longer than six months because it should be possible to decide in that time whether they are potential officers or not and whether they are to be retained.

My next point is in regard to Civil Defence. Again, there appears to be some dissatisfaction in this regard. It is being said that we are not getting value for the money expended on it. I suppose we can never get it, but when the Minister tells us that there are grants to local authorities for premises and so on, what exactly does he mean? Are these grants of the total cost, or have the local authorities to put up so much? I do not know the answer, but it would appear to me that the local authorities have to put up so much and then they get so much of a grant. This is a national matter and the local authorities should not have to expend any money on it. All expenditure required should be from central funds. There is no point in the Minister or the Government telling us that the grant is so much, because once there is any demand on local authorities for any expenditure, obstacles will be placed in the way and the money will be misused and abused. All sorts of problems arise which I think could be avoided if the Government took full responsibility for Civil Defence.

I am glad that progress is being made in regard to the appointment of wardens and deputy wardens and that so many people took full time training, even for a short period, and that it has had the desired results. It is important, however, that all the expenditure should be borne by the Government and that local authorities should be relieved of any responsibility. A contribution is made by the local authorities when their officials get leave of absence to take part in these activities. I am glad that the Minister has had some success in his negotiations with the St. John Ambulance Brigade, the Knights of Malta and the Red Cross, in co-ordinating rescue services and so on. It is a pity that any delay should have arisen or that anxieties should have been created to prevent full co-operation. I hope that has now been got over and that we will have the full benefit of their knowledge and equipment.

On the question of the Red Cross, I want to support the Minister, the Government and the people of the country in their appeal for the Relief from Hunger Campaign. I think that is very desirable. I am glad the Red Cross and the Government are taking part in it. It is important that this country should show that it is charitably-minded and put that charity into active operation by contributing to that campaign as much as possible.

I hope that some effort is being made to make it possible for the refugees who have been with us for some time now to settle down here and become useful members of the community, if there is no longer any chance of their being able to return to their own countries.

There are so many things which could be said on this Vote that it is better not to say them, but I should like to impress upon the Minister that he should tell us what the facts are relating to the alleged resignations, the uncertainties and the dissatisfaction in the Army, whether the pay and allowances are adequate, and whether the cost of living allowances are up to the standard recognised by labour and employers in civilian life. I am satisfied that they have not reached that level in the Army and, therefore, there is a lot of dissatisfaction.

On the question of equipment, it is important that what we buy is the most modern. I am glad the Minister and the Army are taking the line of purchasing only what is of the highest quality and of the most advanced type. We will not be able to get in great supplies, but it is important that we should be au fait with modern developments. The setting up of radar and other equipment in case of a breakdown of telephonic communication, is very important. Civil Defence people should get some training in the use and operation of that equipment because the more widely that knowledge is extended, the more easy it will be to give a service which we all hope will never be required, but if it is the will of God that it should be required, we should be able to provide protection and defence for our people against one of the greatest evils that may arise in the future.

Mr. Corish

We all echo the sentiments expressed by the Minister when he expressed his gratitude and that of the Government to those who have served in the Congo, and who are at present serving there. As a result of our sending the various contingents of soldiers to the Congo, and their activities and behaviour there, the name of Irish soldiers, and the name of the Irish nation, is indeed held in very high esteem, despite malicious propaganda from those who obviously wanted to see the Congo divided.

We recognise from the type of propaganda we got in various newspapers, and from various statesmen in Europe, that their interest in the Congo was a vested interest. I appreciate that it is very difficult for a small nation such as ours adequately to refute the malicious propaganda disseminated by various newspapers and by various politicians. I should be inclined to agree with Deputy MacEoin when he said, so far as I could hear him, that we could have made more of an effort to get publicity for the denial of the atrocities alleged to have been committed by Irish soldiers. I do not think anyone in the world, or any member of the civilised nations, would associate atrocities of the kind alleged with Irish soldiers, or indeed with anyone from the Irish nation.

I appreciate, as I know the Minister does, the difficulties under which Irish soldiers and the contingents from other countries engaged in military operations in the Congo. It was fairly difficult to pursue those military operations and to give the impression that they were acting in the capacity for which they were appointed by the United Nations. While there has been a lot of malicious propaganda, there has also been misrepresentation of the activities of the Irish and other contingents to the Congo. There are difficulties which may arise unfortunately and which may give a wrong impression to some people, when we consider that the directions for the operations come from the United Nations, a distance of 7,000, 8,000 or 10,000 miles away from the actual scene of operation.

We have the famous example of the Conor Cruise O'Brien affair. I do not think anyone will get to the end of that. I appreciate the reluctance of the Government at the time to comment in detail on that episode. I think there were difficulties on either side, and when I say "either side", I mean on the Conor Cruise O'Brien side and on the United Nations side. It is very difficult to tease out the whole business and know who was right and who was wrong. I believe that the Irish contingents at the time endeavoured to carry out their instructions in accordance with United Nations policy.

We are all glad to know—and I personally am glad to know—that the policy of the United Nations has succeeded in spite of the setbacks, the propaganda and the opposition from many of those who had supported that policy at the United Nations. There is now a period of relative calm in the Congo which we trust will result in the establishment, so to speak, of a nation that can take its place amongst the nations of the world.

We seem to have very few problems so far as the real matter of defence is concerned. We are, I suppose, fortunate that this debate is not strewn with skybolts, polaris missiles, atomic and hydrogen bombs, and all the difficulties we might have vis-à-vis membership of an association like NATO. Equally, it is, I suppose, amusing that in a debate such as this most of the concentration should be on the Jumping Team, the Bands, Gaelic games, or any other sort of games, within the Army, and all the other things we are wont to discuss here from year to year. We all recognise there must be an Army. We also recognise that there does not seem to be much for the Army to do. The overall decision to have an Army of the strength at which it has been over the past ten, 15 or 20 years is a very desirable one. The Minister does not know — nobody knows — whether or not the Army will be called upon next year, the year after, five, ten, 15 or 20 years hence, but every Party is agreed we must have an Army.

One of the greatest difficulties now seems to be keeping the Army occupied. Deputies are concerned, as are former members of the Army, like Deputy MacEoin and Deputy Tully, about the treatment of the personnel and the difficulties and problems they have with regard to pay, billeting, uniform and so on. Because I have no experience of the Army and, therefore, no experience of these things, I propose now to touch upon things which are not really real Army matters.

We must keep our Army occupied for moral and other reasons. We should try to make the Army much more attractive by giving the men something to do. I do not think they have been given enough to do in the matter of sea fishery protection. Deputy MacEoin referred to this matter in his speech this morning. The inadequacy of fishery protection has long been the subject of question by all Parties in the House to successive Governments. I think most Deputies believe that fishery protection is inadequate. The fishermen recognise its inadequacy much more acutely than anybody else. We are, however, pleased to know that this Government have, by dint of pressure put on them in recent months, decided at last to establish a helicopter service.

The Minister told us this morning that the service will cost in the financial year under discussion £273,000. I trust the fullest use will be made of the service, not alone in fishery protection but also as a rescue service. It is shameful that in the past five or six years we have been dependent entirely on the British Royal Air Force on any occasion in which it was believed a helicopter would be of use. Despite what has been said, I firmly believe that a helicopter service in the months of January and February of this year, during which we had heavy snowfalls, would have been of tremendous advantage in those areas that were worst hit.

The major portion of Deputy MacEoin's speech was devoted to the Army School of Equitation. We do not seem to have made very much progress in recent years as far as the Army School of Equitation is concerned. We can all join, and rightly so, with the Minister in congratulating the Irish Army Jumping Team on the success it had in Harrisburg, Toronto, New York and other places, but, whilst we are very pleased with these successes, it cannot be said that the Irish Army Jumping Team was in the top bracket in the past 12 months.

There is a phrase in the Minister's speech, a phrase that has been used by other Ministers for Defence before him: it is that we are in the process of building and training. How long will we be in the process of building and training? I know that the Army, and possibly the Minister for Defence, is jealous of the interests of the Irish Army Jumping Team but I do not think that jealousy should operate to the exclusion of top-class horsemen here. If anybody made an impression in horse jumping in the past 12 months, it is Tommy Wade. It is amazing to me and it must be amusing to the public that a man like Tommy Wade is excluded from a team described as an Irish Jumping Team. An Irish Army Jumping Team is different, but an Irish Jumping Team makes no difference to the people of the United States of America, Germany, Holland, Belgium or Great Britain.

Ireland will gain tremendous advantage and notice from an Irish Jumping Team competing in recognised international horseshows. We have long passed the stage when only the Army should be considered and we have long reached the stage at which members of the Defence Forces and civilian jumpers could well combine to form what could be one of the finest jumping teams in the world. Men like Tommy Wade, and others who have made their mark in horse jumping, should be included in the team.

All of us were thrilled last autumn when Tommy Wade riding Dundrum appeared on television and beat the top riders in Great Britain in two or three contests. This yarn about building and training an Army Jumping Team has gone on too long. Deputy MacEoin says a horse must be seven, eight or nine years before it is regarded as mature enough to be a good jumper. I have heard this business about building and training for the last 15 or 16 years. People are asking themselves now when we are going to recapture the former glory we had where horse jumping was concerned.

I remember as a very much younger man the thrill it was to listen on the radio or read in the newspapers the successes of the Irish, as it was then and as it is now, Army Jumping Team. They were always odds on favourites to win such contests as the Aga Khan Cup. They did, indeed, win it on a majority of occasions. To-day we trail behind America, Italy, Portugal, Mexico, Great Britain and all the others. We are not even in the first three. We are usually at the tailend.

I do not say this in criticism of the young officers who form the Irish Army Jumping Team. I make this criticism in order to impress upon the Minister the tremendous advantage there could be to this country if we were to send abroad a combined Army and Civilian Jumping Team. We are engaged in the big business here of trying to sell horses. We have reached the Gilbertian situation described by Deputy MacEoin in which the Irish horse is now famous, not when it is ridden by an Irish Army officer but when ridden by an Italian, or somebody else. People are amused that a horse like "The Quiet Man"—I am not sure if that is the correct name of the horse— is ridden by an Italian or the national of some other country.

Successful showjumping is one of the best forms of advertisement we could have. It is men like Ronnie Delany who put this country on the map. As a runner, he made this country known to nations that had never heard of Ireland until he appeared on the scene. If we want to advertise, not alone our horses but also our country, one of the best ways in which we can do it is by the method I suggest, namely, a combination of the best Irish Army jumpers and the best Irish civilian jumpers.

I do not think the Minister can be satisfied with the position regarding Civil Defence. It is true that there has been an improvement on last year. There are now 10,700 people in the Civil Defence force, representing an increase of 3,000 on last year. That is not enough. There is no concentrated effort being made, there is no national drive to encourage recruitment for the important matter of Civil Defence. The efforts made are, in the main, confined to local authorities and they are doing it because they believe there is an obligation on them to do it.

They are charged with the responsibility of having a Civil Defence corps in their areas. The town clerk, county managers and other officials feel that they have a responsibility but there is no concentrated or earnest effort. Civil Defence should not be, and I have said this before, either a local charge or a local responsibility; it should be a national charge and a national responsibility. If we are to have an adequate Civil Defence force, we can have it only on the initiative of the Department of Defence; we can have it only if the Department deploys its officials and officers around the country to ensure that there will be a sincere and earnest campaign to provide it.

The FCA was referred to by the Minister but not at any great length. It seems to me that there is a big turnover in that force, meaning that you get an influx of youths into it who stay in it for six or perhaps 12 months and then leave it because they are fed up. I do not know what the Minister can do about that but he should think about making the force much more attractive. Perhaps he will give us an idea when concluding as to what the life of a member of the FCA is. One should pay tribute to those who join the force and who joined it voluntarily, when it was the LDF, in the war years. I know there are men who joined voluntarily in those years who are still members of the FCA. They are good officers and are doing their utmost to ensure that there will be a local defence force but their efforts cannot be as successful as one would wish, unless the organisation is made much more attractive. It is attractive in that they have an annual camp, in that they get an allowance to go to this camp and that the camp provides training and amusement. If we are to have a civilian defence force such as the FCA, much more needs to be done by the Army authorities and by the Department of Defence.

There is not much evidence that sport is being encouraged in the Army. I do not want to be misunderstood in this. It is not being discouraged. The various Ministers who have held the portfolio of Defence have always been known as men who were keenly interested in all branches of sport. Deputy MacEoin referred to the rumours of resignations of many officers and others due to inactivity. Sports are recognised as a sure way of ensuring that there will be activity. I should like to refer to the past glories of the Army football, hurling, rugby and soccer teams. These should be restored to the glory of 25 or 30 years ago when the Army Metro hurling team was always tops in Dublin.

I seem to ask in vain that Army bands be sent much more through the country. I do not know when I last heard the No. 1 Army Band. I do not know how many other Army Bands there are; there is probably one in Cork and one in the Curragh, but the country never hears them or sees them. Could they not be utilised on Radio Éireann? I do not think they have ever appeared on Telefis Éireann, although they are recognised as good bands since the time Colonel Fritz Brase was introduced as director of the Army School of Music. The Army is known in Dublin, Cork, the Curragh, Limerick and, perhaps, in Kilkenny but there are some children who have never seen an Irish soldier. I appreciate that it would be expensive to have them going from town to town to show themselves, but as far as the Army bands and Army Jumping Team are concerned, provision should be made to have them appear in the chief provincial centres and to perform on Radio Éireann and Telefis Éireann.

We all support the Minister's appeal to the people to contribute to the Freedom from Hunger Campaign. I suppose what we would give, when compared with the contributions of the bigger countries, would be very small indeed but every little contribution helps. It often strikes one, when there is an appeal for something of this kind and when we hear that two-thirds of the population of the world are regarded as being inadequately fed, that the other one-third has so much wealth. In recent years, we have been engaged in trying to fight our way into the Common Market, an organisation established to make the people comprising it better fed. I think the Minister for Defence should ask the Minister for External Affairs to approach the matter on a different basis and ask the wealthier countries to release their wealth of food.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister for Defence has no responsibility in that matter.

Mr. Corish

He spoke about the Freedom from Hunger Campaign.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

He referred to it briefly.

Mr. Corish

What is "briefly"? If he referred to it at all, we are entitled to speak on it as well. I do not think I shall be accused by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle of being one who tries to walk through the rules of order in this House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has admitted that it is the responsibility of another Minister, the Minister for External Affairs.

Mr. Corish

I did not. I said the Minister for Defence might ask the Minister for External Affairs to raise this matter in the United Nations Organisation, to ask those countries who are wealthy in food, and who dump and burn that food, to ensure that the food now being dumped will be sent to the hungry countries.

Mr. Dooley

Tá £660,000 sa bhreis ins an Meastachán seo i mbliana thar anuraidh. Tá dhá rud ciontach leis sin — ceanntacht trí heiliceaptair ar archinn an Rialtais de bharr choibhriú dhaoine i gcontúirt, agus freisin soláthar taisceán éadaigh agus ábhar éidí do na saighdiúirí. Aontaím go bhfuil gá ag an Arm leis na heiliceaptair. Tá gá comh maith le h-éidí nua do na saighdiúirí. Tá ceist an éide nua dhá plé le fada anois agus nil ach an ceart ann go réiteofar é anois.

Maidir leis na saighdiúirí sa Chongo táimid ar fad bródúil as an caoi atá siad dá n-iompar féin ansin agus as an cabhair atá siad ag tabhairt do chúis shíocháin an domhain. Tá cúis gearáin amháin agam i dtaobh ár saighdiúirí sa Chongo. Tá sé ráite gur tugadh cead do shaighdiúirí áirithe dul ar an misiún sin dhá uair ach nár tugadh seans do shaighdiúirí eile dul ann cor ar bith. Sin a ceaptar ar aon nós, agus bhéinn buíoch dá nhabródh an tAire go bhfuil an seans céanna ag chuile shaighdiúir agus nach bhfuil pribhléid ar leith le fáil ag saighdiúirí áirithe.

Rinne an tAire tagairt do na fiche oifigí nea-choimisiúnta ar eirí leo anuraidh i gcúrsa i gcóir ábhar oifigígh. D'eirigh go maith leo agus tá súil agam go leanfar leis an obair sin. Ba mhaith liom comh maith comhghairdeachas a dhéanamh le chuile dhuine a bhí páirteach i dtréanáil na bprintíseach san Aer-Chór agus san Arm. Ina thaobh, leis, ba mhaith liom dá mbeadh sé ar chumas an Aire an cúrsa sin a leathnú.

Conditions under which the serving soldier now lives have greatly improved over the years, through the building of new houses, the provision of dining halls, cook houses and better sleeping quarters. It is to be hoped that these improvements will continue and that, if possible, the Minister will speed up those improvements because anything that can be done to improve the soldier's lot deserves to be considered. A contented soldier makes a good soldier and in this connection might I plead that when conditions improve, and when the opportunity presents itself, pay in the Army for the lower income group will be greatly improved?

Might I couple with the lower income group of soldiers the lower paid civilian employees of the Department of Defence? Since I have mentioned the civilian employees in the Army, I would ask that those of them who have not yet got the five-day week be given such conditions as soon as possible. I am speaking now of the civilians employed at the Curragh. They have still not got the five-day week which I understand, operates in other areas in respect of civilian employees of the Department of Defence. As far as I am aware, civilian employees at the Curragh have still not got it.

We are all very pleased at the Curragh that the new school there is nearing completion and I should like now to congratulate all concerned with it. For many years, the teachers there worked in huts under great difficulties. They were most uncomfortable and had the added disadvantage of fire hazard. I would ask that these huts be cleared away and not left there to deteriorate as other such buildings have been left at the Curragh.

By-laws for the Curragh are to be formulated and I hope that when the time comes for those by-laws to be promulgated, all concerned will be given time to consider them — that nothing will be done to interfere with the freedom of those who for generations have used the Curragh lands. Portion of those lands were cut away last year to facilitate the running of the Irish Derby and wonderful improvement has been made to lands which were thus enclosed. That improvement should have set an example for the Department of Defence as to what can be done with such lands.

Some years ago, investigations were carried out as to how these lands could be best improved. I do not know whether any conclusions have been drawn from that examination but surely now that this example has been given, there should be little difficulty. Workers and employers are being urged to increase productivity and I fear the State are giving a very poor example in allowing these lands to be left in such poor condition. In certain areas along the roadside at the Curragh, plants have been put down during the past few years and they improve the appearance of the place considerably, as well as providing shelter. It might be possible to increase the number of plants along the roadside there and thus further enhance the appearance of the area.

At Naas, a number of new houses are being built. They have been coming along somewhat slowly, but I understand that weather conditions and the difficulty in obtaining workers, particularly tradesmen, are responsible for some of the delays. They are going ahead, however, and I hope the progress made up to date will be continued.

On a previous occasion here, I referred to huts in the barrack grounds at Naas. Like the huts at the Curragh, they are very old; they are a fire danger; and they do not improve the appearance of the locality. They should be removed, as well as the old houses behind them, and replaced by new buildings. There is no doubt there is demand for more houses than the number being built at the present time. Recently Deputy Norton asked the Minister about the number of new houses being provided. Undoubtedly there are not sufficient houses for all the soldiers who need them. I am aware that, on the Curragh as elsewhere, there are a number of overholders but even allowing for those, there are still not enough houses being built for those who need them.

I referred already to the Apprenticeship schools, and I suggest now it would be a good thing if those schools had their own chaplains. That difficulty does not arise at the Curragh but it does at Naas, and while the parish authorities are most helpful, I think it would be better if the school there had its own chaplain.

On the subject of playing facilities, the present playing pitch at the Naas school is not adequate for the numbers using it. I understand the boys have done a certain amount of work to provide a swimming pool and I think the Department could come to their help by completing the work. Not very far from Naas, at Newbridge, the boys in a boarding school have provided a swimming pool of their own, with a certain amount of help. I think the same could be done with a little help from the Department in the case I mention.

I understand there has been an improvement in the number joining Civil Defence. Every assistance should be given to Civil Defence. There are some who jeer at those who have joined and say: "What could we do if anything happened?" These people would be the first to join if there was an emergency and would present themselves untrained and be more of a hindrance than a help.

Mr. Carroll

By and large, I feel the Minister is doing a good job but I think he cannot be satisfied with the present remuneration of Army personnel. I referred last year to the grave embarrassment suffered by our commissioned officers in the Congo where their pay was equivalent to that of a Swedish pilot. That brings us back to the years of the World War when the pay of the American private was equivalent to that of a British commissioned officer. The valour of our soldiers is known from Dunkirk to Belgrade and it is wonderful to know that in the Congo operations they have maintained the record of their predecessors but I wonder if we are now producing a cut-price soldier. The labourer is worthy of his pay and I have no fear that if the Minister were to bring in a Supplementary Estimate for a 25 per cent increase all round, any Deputy would oppose it. Surely as an old soldier himself—and unpaid at that—the Minister understands the position.

When one examines one's conscience in the matter, one wonders if that is the reason for the desertions. I suggest it is. It is a sad state of affairs when we have soldiers deserting from the Irish Army to join the British Army. It is even sadder when the pay of the Irish soldier is so low that having no ambition to join the British Army, he leaves to take up a building job in England, when he comes back in an emergency, perhaps, he gets 285 days detention. We do not want individuals who desert but we must consider particular cases.

There is a much more important matter, one which gives me great concern, that is, the housing of Army personnel. The Minister states that eight houses are being built for the coming year and that 162 houses have been completed over a number of years —he did not say how many. He said that 30 houses were being completed in Athlone. That is a wonderful record but let us examine it. A member of Dublin Corporation comes up against the housing position every day. Perhaps the soldier's uniform is not as unattractive, as has been stated, but if he marries, where can he live? I suggest the Minister should collaborate with the Minister for Local Government in making some special arrangements for the housing of soldiers. Even with two or three children, what hope of a house have they?

I have a case in mind of a man who has been twice in the Congo and he might as well go back there because he cannot get any living accommodation here. Yet there is plenty of space in the Dublin barracks where the Minister could build, if not houses, flats. There is no excuse, as there may have been in 1956-57 when allegedly there was no money. There is plenty now and all we need is the decision. If the Minister is not convinced, I can give him details of so many cases by post inside 24 hours that he will be satisfied beyond doubt that this is a burning question. It is a terrible situation when young soldiers are not able to join their wives in view of the other evils that may ensue.

I shall mention the Army Jumping Team only to say that when one is away—I have been looking at our soldiers in the US—it is the desire of every emigrant to see them. "Here come the Irish," they shout, but they come and go with very few rosettes. I can assure the Minister that the figure he mentions looks good but it does not reflect the true picture. As one who has lost a lot of money on horses, I might also say that he cannot expect to get a good animal for £300 or £400.

The Cadets have been mentioned by Deputy MacEoin. It is very disturbing for the parents of a boy who obtains honours in the Leaving Certificate examination and decides on the Army or the Navy as his career to have the experience to which the Deputy referred. After a protracted period, he is told to report and does so. After about three or six months, he is fitted out with a beautiful uniform and everything seems wonderful. Then the day comes when he is told to pack his bag, no reason or excuse being given. Surely the Minister will agree that even in the old days it was not necessary to wait three months or three days to know if a man was a potential officer or not. They will very graciously give a good recommendation when the boy is dispensed with and he can go to England and get a job in a bank or some similar institution. That is the situation. If the Minister feels I am exaggerating, I will give him particulars of the actual case I have in mind.

We are satisfied that the Army have done everything well as soldiers but we have not done a good job in so far as their remuneration is concerned. It is pathetic. My vocabulary is not good enough to express just what I feel about this. Cut-price soldiers— that is what we have in this country.

At the same time, I feel that the Minister is not unsympathetic to this particular situation. I know from the newspapers and television that he has given his time to the Army and has done it very unselfishly, but that is not enough. He must reconsider his demands on the Minister for Finance. If there were 300,000 there, they will not be on the Minister's hands. It would be money well spent if he spent three times the amount of money in renovating and improving the present married quarters. He is not unaware of the recent publicity about the position in Cathal Brugha Barracks in Dublin. It is really pathetic. Those are the men going to the Congo —ready to give their all—and we do not seem to be able to give them just that all-important thing. The Minister has the ground and the facilities. If he gives some consideration to those two points—I am making just two points— I shall be satisfied he will do a good job and I am sure he will meet with no opposition in this House.

Mr. A. Barry

I want to deal with one item in the Minister's Estimate. There is a large increase in the amount of money made available for the buying of clothing and such equipment. I should like the Minister to have greater regard for the improvement of the dress of the Irish soldier. I raised this matter as long ago as nine or ten years in this House. I still see the old tunics, the old badly-fitting garments, being worn by our soldiers.

The present design of the standard tunic as Army wear dates from somewhere around the turn of the century. The only difference between it and the British one is that it is green. Any remarks I have to make must apply also to the FCA issue. The FCA uniform is baggy, untidy, very depressing to wear and equally depressing to look at. The bonnet they wear should be got rid of without further delay or else be tailored to a much smarter piece of headgear. Every member of the unit should wear it at the same angle and not as we see it worn at present. It is a horrible object. All Army men agree it is very hard to make a man look well in those outfits.

A smart soldier is always a good soldier. We should help that desirable ambition by issuing dress to them not alone of finer quality material—which I understand is being considered now —but of far better cut, far better tailoring. The increase in cost in relation to the whole Vote would be minute but the toning-up in morale would be out of all proportion to the cost. Most of us who have had any experience of Army service know that morale is the most important of military qualities.

We all look very enviously, for instance, at United States soldiers when we see them in uniform. I do not think they have been coming on leave to this country for some years past but, when they did, the average Irish soldier had to look at them with eyes of envy. The clothes of those soldiers were beautifully tailored. The men, I am quite sure, were not as good as ours in physical quality or character but certainly as young soldiers—before they became fat, as many of them did— they looked extremely well.

The cost of the soldier's dress is the smallest cost of running a defence force. If you divide the £9 million over our entire resources available in manpower, the dress represents a very small part of it. For goodness sake, change it. It is deplorable. It has gone on for 40 years now. It is pretty well a part of the old British music hall tradition of the soldier and the Army. The British make a trade of laughing at themselves for other purposes but we should do better. All these old garments should be kept inside the barrack gates and worn out on fatigue duty. But, when the soldier comes out for any purpose, he should be dressed as every Irishman, woman and child would like to see an Irish soldier dressed. I said I would refer only to that subject and that is the end of it. I hope the Minister will consider it. We should do better about the appearance of our troops.

I want to make a slight reference to the problem of maintaining the strength of the Army bands. Ever since the time of Fritz Brase, our Army bands have been a source of pride to us. I understand that keeping the young men in the bands has been a great headache. I am sure the Army School of Music must be worried about it. I understand that these men break their contracts and leave before their time is up and that that sort of wastage occurs. It is hard to blame them because the money temptation in other fields of music is considerable. The Minister should tell us if this situation can be improved? I think people would like to see our bands at pretty nearly full strength. They would like to see more of them, also. They would like to see the Army more often on formal occasions then they do. It would help a great deal both the Army and the FCA units if they looked better when they appeared. If greater attention were paid to the manner in which we dress them, I believe it would ease the Minister's problem about recruitment and would certainly raise the morale of the men themselves. It is one of the most important things to which the Minister should attend. It is 10 years since I spoke about it and I still can see the old 1922 uniform. It is the most hardworked garment in the country and the Minister should abolish it.

Mr. Tully

In common with other Deputies, I wish to pay a tribute to the members of the Defence Forces who served in the Congo during the year and to say we are all proud of them. They have proved what we all knew, of course, that the Irish soldier is the best in the world and that when he is up against it, he has the mental makeup to do what is necessary.

It is rather a pity that some of those soldiers who have come home and have since left the Defence Forces have not had a happy experience in regard to their treatment by the civilian population. I have particularly in mind a young man who was a hero less than 12 months ago but when he left the Army were it not for the fact that representations were made by the Organisation of National ex-Servicemen to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, Deputy O'Malley, he would still be standing outside the labour exchange in Dublin city. Nobody seemed to worry whether he had a job when he left the Army. And there are many other ex-Army men in that position. However, I should like to pay tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary for the promptitude with which he dealt with the matter when it was brought to his notice.

The Minister for Defence could help in these matters if he knows of cases like that. Men who are prepared to sacrifice their lives, if necessary, should get a little more appreciation than the few shillings they can get at the labour exchange. We are all very proud of the way the Irish soldiers behaved in the Congo and even some of the people who were attacking them up to a few weeks ago had the grace to withdraw the charges when it was proved conclusively that the statements they were making were false.

There is the hardy annual of the uniform and boots. Those of us who had experience of wearing the uniform and boots and who had occasion to curse them away back in the emergency days will remember that the reason given for retaining them was that there was no substitute for them at the time. To-day the Irish soldier is still wearing the same type of uniform and boots.

Mr. A. Barry

Forty years old.

Mr. Tully

The boots may not be 40 years old but they look it, and so does the uniform. Since he came to office, the Minister has done a great deal to improve conditions for the Irish soldier. I have great admiration for the way in which he has handled a number of matters which have come before him. However, the old corny story that we cannot change the uniforms because there is a big supply in stock is given the lie by the statement made here that it is proposed to buy a small extra supply in case it is needed for reserves, etc. There is no longer any excuse for retaining the present type of uniform. The American soldier was given a uniform tailored in such a way and made of such material that he looks smart in it. The amazing thing is that the Irish soldier is able to look smart in what he is wearing at present. I appeal to the Minister to improve matters in that respect.

This all boils down to the question of the number of people who are going in and out of the Army and in and out of the FCA. The FCA uniform is as bad, if not worse than, the Army uniform. We are offering no inducement to people to stay in the FCA. It is always fairly easy to get people to join anything but when they see the way they are treated and what they are expected to do, they soon get fed up. In the FCA, they do not attend practices, while in the Army, they either finish up by being very bad soldiers and staying in or by deserting.

If the Minister is really serious about building a proper Army, conditions must be improved and, above all, the pay must be improved. If it were not so serious, the situation would be laughable. Any other State or semiState employee is able to get conditions and wages comparable with employment outside but for some peculiar reason the serving soldier is considered to be in a different category and is expected to be prepared to accept very much less, particularly if he is a young single man going into the Army, than his counterpart in civilian life. I am extremely disappointed that in the Estimate there is no provision for increases. In fact, there is a reduction which does not mean a reduction in pay but even that sum could have been earmarked to start improving the pay of the serving soldier.

This situation is highlighted when we read in the newspapers about people who desert from the Army, who go outside or to England to work. Eventually, they are picked up by the military authorities and charged as deserters. The excuse usually given is that conditions were bad at home and they left the Army in order to earn a few pounds to help the home. What greater condemnation of the Army can there be than that those people have to go outside to earn a few pounds to help the home? Should they not be able to get comparable rates of pay in the Army? That is a condemnation for the whole country to see, because the criminal proceedings are published in the newspapers and get, perhaps, more prominence than some of us think they should get.

I have very definite views on the question of housing for Army personnel. It is rather unfortunate that soldiers in barracks or camps should be expected to compete with the ordinary civilian for housing accommodation. He will only get housing accommodation through the local authority if the conditions are worse than those of the civilian who has applied for the same house. Even when that happens, the civilian who does not get the house usually has a chip on his shoulder because he feels that it is the responsibility of the Army to house the soldier, not that of the local authority. The local authority to which I belong has always been very fair about it. If the question of housing a soldier arises, his circumstances are taken into consideration and if he qualifies, it houses him. Unfortunately, other local authorities do not do so.

I suggest the Minister should consider where there is a permanent barracks or camp, some scheme whereby the local authority will be asked to build houses for soldiers and that along with the grants given by the Department of Local Government the Department of Defence should make available a certain amount of money to help in the erection of these houses. They would be used by the soldiers and if for any reason the camp or barracks was discontinued, they could revert to the local authority as their property. Until such time as that is done, we will have this continual grievance.

In Gormanston, in my constituency, I know soldiers living in the camp whose wives have to get accommodation anywhere they can around the country. Young soldiers have to live in their homes while their wives live with their parents. They are always hoping a house will become available. Usually the wives live many miles from the Camp and are not considered for housing the same as a person living in a condemned house beside the Camp. We are all anxious to house these people, and the Minister should endeavour to do something about it. It would help very much if the Department of Defence would co-operate with us in this matter.

Pensions will be debated later on, but I should like to deal only with one aspect. When a soldier goes in, he should be guaranteed that, having served the required number of years, he will get a pension comparable with that attaching to a pensionable job outside. We had here recently the example of the Bord na Móna pension. The only pension I know of worse than it is the pension given to the serving soldier. A soldier who joins at 18 or 19 years is a comparatively young man when he goes out. That is the reason given for the relatively small pension. But where will he get employment? Is it not a fact that even the Department of Defence lay down a regulation, as do other Departments, that, if possible, people of middle-age should not be given employment? Every Department has stated that if a younger man is available, people of middle-age should not be given employment. While they may not have stated that specifically, it is true and, if needs be, I can prove that Government Departments have that regulation. I have in mind particularly the Board of Works. The soldier who serves for 21 years will find it extremely difficult to get employment outside. He may have to depend on his pension for a long time. There should, therefore, be an increase in the pension.

The Minister has improved considerably the conditions in barracks and camps. He has improved the sleeping accommodation and the eating accommodation, but I do not think he has done as much about the food as he might. We still have complaints about anything at all being slapped up. The variety of the food could be improved and, possibly in certain cases, the quantity also. It is all very well to say that a check was carried out at a certain time and everything was found to be in order, but anybody who has had anything to do with the Army knows very well that everything was shipshape when the inspection was carried out because the last week had been spent preparing for it. The relationship between anything found on the morning of the inspection and what takes place during the rest of the week is purely accidental. The only way in which complaints about food can be verified is by having spot checks. Nobody should know about them but the senior officer making the check. Otherwise, it will be passed down along the grapevine and preparations will be made to see that everything is in order.

I should like to refer to the question of the channels through which complaints can be made. It has always been the regulation that complaints can be made through the superior officer right up to the CO. We know, unfortunately, that this is not the best system for making complaints. On the way up, somebody may have his knuckles rapped and, human nature being what it is, he will take it out on the soldier concerned.

Recently, the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen attempted to bring certain matters of this kind to the notice of the Minister. I am informed by that organisation, of which I am vice-president, that the reply they got was to the effect that what concerned serving soldiers had nothing to do with the organisation. That is not the right attitude. The Minister should realise that if ONE brings matters to his notice about serving soldiers, they do so only with the desire to help. As everybody knows, ONE is made up of people who got honourable discharge from the Army and has no political bias whatever. Any proposal made by that organisation should, therefore, be accepted. If they ask for an interview, while I know the Minister is a very busy man, out of ordinary courtesy, the former members of the Army should be met. Long explanatory letters referring to what has gone before is not the way to deal with these matters. I am not making this comment out of any desire to create acrimony, but the Minister would be well advised to consider the matter.

The question of what occupies a soldier's mind when he is in the Army —recreation, and so on—has been referred to. I am afraid I have to agree that the accent has shifted from sport, except in a few units. During the emergency, the only thing which kept people going between the long boring route marches which, thank heavens, have been discontinued, was the competition between the units at various sports. The Minister should put the accent back on sport. It is important that young men should get every encouragement to take part in sports. I feel it is the Minister's desire that that should be done, but it is not being done in many cases. It would help both mind and body if there could be more outdoor exercise for the young men.

Along with encouraging sport in the Army itself, the Minister should encourage the Army to take part in sport outside and to invite outside teams to their playing fields. There should be a general interchange of ideas and views on sport. Gormanston Camp, for instance, has a fine field which could be used for any type of sport. It is rather unfortunate that there is no definite idea of having goal posts there unless they are needed and, after that, they are taken up again. No area is marked out which could be used all the time.

Although the camp is only a quarter of a mile from the sea, there is no organised swimming. That is a mistake. Only a small proportion of the soldiers and members of the FCA who pass through the camp every summer ever go to the sea or have an opportunity of being taught to swim. An opportunity is being lost there and I would appeal to the Minister to encourage swimming there and in any other place where similar facilities are available.

I notice the reference to the 20 new officers and I am delighted that that step has been taken. I referred to it last year and I thought it was a good idea. It should be continued but I should not like to see those people being treated as if they were secondclass officers. They are entitled to the same treatment as the other commissioned officers. There is only one group of commissioned officers and there should be no distinctions, and no provision that they will have to retire at a certain age and no provisions which do not apply elsewhere. Let us have them treated as if they had come up in the ordinary way. Many of them reached the highest possible rank as NCO's. They are good soldiers and let us treat them as good soldiers. The tendency not to do that will encourage——

Mr. J. Brennan

The Deputy has no reason to think that they are being treated otherwise?

Mr. Tully

I have. The Parliamentary Secretary should not have asked that question.

Mr. J. Brennan

It is ill-founded.

Mr. Tully

I intend to live long enough, and I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will, too, to see whether or not that comment is correct. I would also ask that those soldiers who have been attached to units, senior NCOs, who were able to build homes for themselves, and many of whom have bought houses, should be facilitated so that they can be left where they are. It is not easy to pack up and leave your home and live elsewhere. Every effort should be made to keep them as close as possible to their homes, although I know that when a man becomes a member of the Defence Forces, he has to go where he is sent.

I think an opportunity was lost during the recent heavy snow when the Army should have been used far more extensively. I can tell the Minister that the soldiers would have enjoyed immensely to have been used during that time. Somebody recently said, and I should like to repeat it, that one of the things a soldier dreads is boredom. During the emergency period, efforts were made to keep the soldiers from becoming bored by sending them on long route marches. That did not always help because many of them decided they were not cut out for soldiering and as a result of the marches left the Army. An effort should be made to prevent boredom in any way it can be prevented and the taking part in anything like rescue operations during periods of heavy falls of snow, or even clearing roads, would be welcomed by the soldiers. It would mean mixing with the people and proving their worth. Some people have the idea that the soldiers are all right during an emergency or that they are all right in the Congo, but in peacetime, they do not get the respect they deserve and I should like to see that attitude changed. This is one way of having it changed.

Another point is that there are not enough summer manoeuvres of the sort we had during the emergency. I am not referring to the route marches, which were barbarous, but for soldiers brought up say, in a city or town, to be transferred to a country district to spend a time under canvas and engage in tactical manoeuvres gives them new life and new interests to talk about and an opportunity to mix with people with whom they have not been in touch for a long time. The Minister should consider that sort of activity.

In regard to barracks, another point is the matter of facilities for off-duty leisure. It is all right to say that rugs are being put at the bedside or that better beds and bedside lamps are being provided; it is all right to say that you have messes for officers and NCOs and that you have canteens; but let me say, without being accused of condemning those things, that they are all very necessary but they are nothing more than places in which, if you are fond of a drink, you can have it in convivial company, but they are not places where the ordinary soldier with little money can spend an evening. I would suggest that some type of recreation hall, not too big, such as is used for physical training or occasional dances, be provided where the soldiers could sit and read or write, or look at television, if they wanted to. Those things would help to pass the time for the soldier. He is entitled to that and while these things may operate in some places, there are others where they do not operate. I hope I am not asking too much of the Minister in asking him to look into these matters and see if something can be done.

Deputy Dooley referred to the question of the wooden huts. No matter how comfortable they are, they are still wooden and while in summer, if it is not raining too much, they can be quite pleasant to sleep in and spend some time, they are not ideal for anybody to sleep in during the winter. If at all possible, they should be done away with and something substantial substituted for them. I imagine it could be done without very much cost but possibly the Minister may say that it would involve a large amount of expenditure. I do not expect that a tremendous amount of money should be spent on them but if at all possible, they should be removed.

I should also like to refer to something which occurs again and again, although I thought it had died out. This is the case of the man charged with doing something despicable in civilian life and his solicitor appeals to the justice not to send him to jail as otherwise he will join the Army. I am sure the Minister is doing everything practicable to prevent that and to point out that that type of person is not eligible for the Army. Certainly such people have not made a good impression in civilian life and one "bad egg" getting into a group of young fellows in an Army unit can do an awful lot of harm. Not alone should it be discouraged but the "bad egg" in the Army should be dumped out immediately. It is rather unfortunate that the good name of the Defence Forces is occasionally dragged down by people who were never cut out to be soldiers and merely joined because they thought it was a "cushy" life and they could get away without doing much work and being paid for it. The Minister would be doing a good job for the Army if he arranged for those people to be dumped out and let them try their tricks somewhere else. Certainly they are no asset to the Defence Forces.

With reference to Civil Defence, apparently the Minister is not aware of the true position. I am sorry to have to say that while a certain amount of publicity has been given to it, I do not think any wonderful effort has been made. There is not a general awareness about Civil Defence. I travel from one end of the country to the other, and I know that in particular areas, a certain amount of work is done. I want to bring home to the Minister that a lot more is required than is being done at present, if we are serious about Civil Defence. It is a bad joke in some counties where Civil Defence is supposed to be looked after in some cases by full-time officials. I suggest to the Minister that we should try to have Civil Defence carried out by Army personnel instead of leaving it to civilians. The Army personnel should go up and down the country and show that the Government are serious about Civil Defence. We all hope there will not be a Third World War, but if it starts, I suggest to the Minister that this country will be found badly prepared so far as Civil Defence in concerned.

Reference has been made to the Army bands. May I suggest that where possible the Army bands should be made available, at the lowest possible cost, to go down the country to sports meetings, football matches and that type of thing. I am not talking about the No. 1 or the No. 2 Army Bands, but about the unit bands. A number of years ago, they created a great impression, but now they are seldom seen or heard. They may attend small functions within the barracks but they do not seem to appear throughout the country.

It is true, as Deputy Corish said, that there are youngsters who have never heard an Army band and, indeed, who have never seen an Irish soldier in uniform. It is too bad that we should have reached that stage in 1963. I am not blaming the Minister for that. I want to make it clear that for the short time he has been in the Department of Defence, he has done many things which apparently other people had not the courage to do. At the same time, this is something which should get his attention, and if it gets the necessary attention, it will help considerably in raising the morale of the Army and in raising the Army in the minds of the ordinary population. It might also help recruiting considerably.

Reference has also been made to the civilian employees who got a five day week. The House knows that I am a trade union official, and I was very happy that the Department of Defence made no bones about giving a five day week to their civilian employees. I was surprised to hear that some people have not yet got it. They must not be members of a union because otherwise an application would have been made on their behalf, and it would have been dealt with in the same speedy and courteous way as the application made for the other civilian employees by the trade union. I hope the Minister will be able to encourage other Ministers to deal with the same speed and courtesy with other applications for a five day week for workers in civilian employment in their Departments.

There is another matter which appals me and I hope the Minister will not rush at this and say: "No", but that he will have a look at it and see if something can be done. In Gormanston Camp for years, the Army have had electric current and overhead wires. Outside the gate of the Camp, about 30 yards away, there is a county council labourer's cottage which is not allowed to receive electric current because the Army authorities have laid it down that since it is an airfield, it would be dangerous to have overhead wires and that all the cables should be underground. There is no difference between the electric current which would go to that council cottage and the current which goes to the Army huts, so far as I am aware.

The ESB have offered to put down underground cables and bring current to the cottage at a bimensal charge of £10.15. I think the Minister will agree that that is an unreasonable state of affairs which should not be allowed to continue. A word from him would solve the problem. Either the Army authorities consider it dangerous for this man and dangerous for the huts to have overhead wires, or if it is not dangerous, the man should be allowed to have electricity supplied to his cottage. If the Department insist that the wires must run underground, it is reasonable to think that the Department should say to the ESB: "The Department will carry the cost." I am not being unreasonable about this matter, and I should like the Minister to see if something can be done, because the present situation is not good enough.

I am delighted to hear that the Army are to be responsible for the helicopter service. As Deputy Corish said, the sooner we get that service the better. I was rather taken aback at the amount of money which it will take to train helicopter pilots, particularly as it will be trained Army personnel and trained fliers, I would assume, who will be operating the helicopters. Be that as it may, it is a very good thing that soon we will have reached the stage when we will not have to depend on Britain to supply us with helicopters.

The helicopter service should be used for fishery protection. We all know that at present when the fishery protection boats start down the coast, long before they come into sight, the foreign trawlers know that they are coming and get out of the way. A helicopter might solve that problem. I suggest also that the Minister might consider covering the sea coast at Gormanston airfield by helicopter. I believe a helicopter would be ideal for that work.

There has not been enough accent on the Naval Service, so far as recruiting is concerned. Fishermen and their sons could be encouraged to join the Naval Service, if they were approached in the proper way. I have in mind a certain area where according as the boys reach a certain age, practically everyone of them goes to sea for a certain period, say, four or five years, and comes back to settle down at fishing or whatever his father does. Surely it should be possible for the Department to encourage those boys to join the Naval Service and spend the same time in that service so that they would be able to help in the defence of the country, if they are needed.

I shall finish by saying that the Minister has done well as Minister for Defence. My criticisms of the Department are not criticisms of him. If he continues as he is going, he can make the lot of the serving soldier very much better than it is. I appeal to him to take note of the points I have raised. As a representative of the Organisation of National Ex-Servicemen, I want to offer to him the fullest co-operation of that organisation in carrying out anything which is for the betterment of the soldiers, serving or retired.

Mr. Geoghegan

It was not my intention to intervene in this debate but there are a few points I should like to raise before the Estimate passes through the House. I should like to congratulate the Minister, his Department and his staff, on the Estimate they have presented to us. The Minister has gone into detail on the working of his Department. Secondly, I want to congratulate him on something which I raised on this Estimate for the past few years. We welcome the fact that the training of members of the FCA which used to be carried out in Finner Camp now takes place as near as possible to each barracks and we know that he has seen to it that it does.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

Whom does the Deputy mean by "we"? Does he mean the Minister and himself? We now know the reason they left Finner Camp.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Geoghegan.

Mr. Geoghegan

On last year's Estimate, I raised the question of providing a house for the chaplain in Dún Uí Mhaoilíosa in Galway. I have gone carefully through the Estimates and I cannot find it under any subhead. I am open to correction, if I am wrong, but I certainly could not find it. If it is in, then I welcome it; if it is not, then I am disappointed. The situation is not at all as it should be. As I have explained on previous occasions, if a man wants to see the chaplain, he must pass the sentry first. Sometimes I am inclined to think that he is questioned by the sentry. A man in some little bit of trouble might like to see the chaplain and, from that point of view, I think the chaplain's house should be outside the barracks, as the officers' houses are outside the barracks. That would remedy the present unsatisfactory situation.

Another point I should like to make is that men might be encouraged to join the Army if they could be assured of having single rooms. Dormitories with 15 or 20 men in them are not really suitable. The men should have single rooms. I suggest to the Minister that steps should be taken to plan along those lines for the future.

Those who served in the Congo deserve the highest praise. I have been told that the officers in charge in the Congo have recommended certain men, men who maintained this country's high repute, for promotion. I have been told that some of the men recommended have not been promoted. I do not know whether or not that is so, but I hope it is not so. I should not like any of these men to feel illtreated.

I welcome the decision to provide a helicopter service and I sincerely hope one of these helicopters will be based in Galway, not just for sea rescue purposes alone but also for fishery protection. I hope the Minister will station at least one helicopter in Galway to watch over the interests of the west coast.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I was very disappointed with the last Deputy's speech; he has let the cat out of the bag. For many years back, Finner Camp has been the training ground of the Army and the FCA. Even back in the days of the British, Finner Camp was looked upon as one of the finest training camps in the country. However, since the advent of the present Minister, we have noticed a falling-off in the number of FCA personnel attending training courses there. We found it difficult to understand, but now Deputy Geoghegan has told us the reason: he has told us—I quote himself—"We have seen to it that FCA personnel from the West of Ireland no longer go to Finner." Now, Deputy Geoghegan and the Minister for Defence represent the same constituency.

Mr. Bartley

Does the Deputy not know that that is not true?

Mr. P. O'Donnell

That is what the Minister's colleague from Galway has just said. He said "We have seen to it..."

Mr. Bartley

Does the Deputy not know the facts?

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I do not.

Mr. Coogan

Deputy Geoghegan is wrong so.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Minister and the Deputy represent the same constituency.

Mr. Davern

The Deputy said he was glad to see the day when these men were trained in their own area.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I speak subject to correction by Deputy Davern. We will see. The records will show exactly what was said but it sounded to me like "We have seen..." However, Deputy Davern is sitting nearer to Deputy Geoghegan than I am, and I will accept his word. We shall have to await the Official Report to find out whether the cat has been let out of the bag, or otherwise.

The Army is something of which this House is very proud indeed. Since the foundation of the State, the Army has served successive Governments loyally. It is an Army of which any country or any Government could be proud. I sometimes think we are inclined to hide our Army. I remember in my student days in Dublin one of the spectacles in the city was the guard being mounted on the various public buildings. I remember a guard being mounted outside the Bank of Ireland. A guard may have been considered necessary in those days, perhaps; I do not intend to go into the merits, or otherwise, of that situation, but there are certain buildings on which a guard is still mounted. This building is one of them. Do we ever see the guard with the exception of a sentry marching up and down or a military policeman down at the gate? I should like the guard on Leinster House, or any other public building, to march through the city. That would be one of the finest recruiting campaigns we could have. Let the public see the Army. Now we see them only on isolated occasions, like St. Patrick's Day, or perhaps on the death of one of their personnel. We are proud of the fine bearing of our troops and it would be a good thing if we saw more of them.

Deputy Tully said there are people in the country who have never seen an Irish soldier. There are also people in the city of Dublin who have never seen an Irish soldier except on the cinema screen or television. The guard on public buildings should be changed in public. It would be a good thing to mount a guard on the Bank of Ireland from the point of view of ceremonial. There should be guards too on public buildings in other cities, such as Cork city. A guard is something that impresses visitors.

Hundreds of thousands flock to London to see the Changing of the Guard at Buckingham Palace. Thousands flock to Edinburgh to see the Changing of the Guard on Edinburgh Castle. The spectacle is shown regularly on television. We should not be ashamed of our Army. I do not suggest the Minister is deliberately trying to hide our Army but I think he should adopt a more liberal attitude and parade our Army oftener. That is one way in which recruiting could be helped considerably. I have made this appeal on former occasions. I repeat it now.

One of the first Chiefs of Staff of our Army was General Michael Collins, go ndéanfa Dia trócaire ar a anam. For some unknown reason, we are ashamed to allow the Army to pay tribute to General Collins at Béal na Bláth on the anniversary of his death. One Government comes in and allows the Army to pay tribute; another Government comes in and refuses. The Minister would do a good thing if he took that matter out of politics entirely. If necessary, he could have a special day and date on which to pay tribute to former Army officers and men.

The Minister may say we are too close to these men still to pay honour and respect to them. If the Minister took the initiative, as he very well can, and permitted a company of troops to pay respect to the former Chief of Staff, it would be a very good thing. I know the Minister will say that there is a special Army Day when soldiers can pay respect to their former leaders but General Collins could be singled out. I would appeal to the Minister in no partisan way to give a lead in this matter and not leave it to be the shuttlecock of politics, troops paying tribute to General Collins when Fine Gael are in office and not doing so when Fianna Fáil are in office.

Let me join with other Deputies in asking the Minister to endeavour to improve the uniform of the NCO's and private soldiers. No matter what country we visit, we find the private soldier accepted in any hotel, restaurant or dancehall, but there seems to be something we despise about the private soldier here. I do not blame the Minister or the Department for that but they should endeavour to give him a uniform which will command more respect than the one he has at the moment, a uniform which will give him a better appearance, which will make the public look up to him more. We should also give him a change of uniform, a summer uniform and a winter uniform, in addition to the battle dress and we should give him a walking-out uniform. I do not think it would cost very much.

Again, let me join with other Deputies in appealing to the Minister to ensure that our soldiers are properly paid. We have approximately 5,000 soldiers in the Army and to give them an extra few pounds a year would scarcely meet the cost of putting an engine into a helicopter. It would cost less to the State than a jet aeroplane. I would appeal to the Minister to be more generous to the serving soldier and particularly to the private soldier. I read recently where a certain self-drive company refused to let a car out to any soldier of the Irish Army under the rank of company sergeant.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister would have no responsibility for that.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

The Minister should ensure that Irish citizens will respect our soldiers. He should inquire into the identity of that car rental company which refused to give a car to an Irish soldier, and should ensure that if a soldier wants to take his wife and family on holiday to the seaside, he will be able to obtain a self-drive car if he wishes.

Some two or three years ago, we had the cadet classes from the Curragh brought up to a vacant Government building in Donegal for a summer course, to Coláiste Bríde. That is one of the finest buildings owned by the State and it is lying vacant now at a cost of £1,000 a year to the taxpayer. Unfortunately, the cadets came there on only one occasion and I think it would be a good thing if the Minister could utilise that building for a few months of the summer for these cadet courses. It is in the centre of the Fíor-Ghaeltacht and, as many of the cadets are taught through the medium of Irish, it is only right that they should have an opportunity of brushing up on it in the cradle of the language. Perhaps the Minister would look into that matter and find out from the Army authorities why they discontinued the practice of sending the cadets there.

Mr. Bartley

We did not discontinue it. We only began it last year.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

I understand it was the year before that.

Mr. Bartley

It was last year. That was the first year it was vacant.

Mr. P. O'Donnell

If that is so, there is very little between us and I would appeal to the Minister to continue that practice. I congratulate the Minister in taking the initiative in making use of the building but I hope he will not drop it this year.

I also appeal to the Minister to reconsider the setting up of the Officers Training Corps for the universities and schools. I think we never gave the credit that they deserved to the OTC and the Regiment of Pearse. We are told that we got only about 200 potential officers from them but I do not think that is the criterion by which we should judge them. Although they did not join the Army on the outbreak of the emergency, many of these men held key positions during that period. Some of them were county managers and others were commissioned in the LSF.

We should remember that many of them had to leave this country when they had obtained their degrees for the simple reason that they could not find employment at home. These men gave valuable service to the armies of other countries and the Minister should reconsider the position and revive the scheme whereby we had a potential officers training course in the universities and schools.

I am very glad that the Minister has decided to provide a number of helicopters for service with the Army and I hope that they will be used not only for the air-sea rescue service but also for fishery protection. They could be very usefully employed for that purpose. I do not think it necessary to base them on any particular part of the seaboard. They could be based somewhere in the centre of the country, at Baldonnell, the Curragh, Gormanston, but because of their mobility, they could get to the location of poaching very quickly and make it most unprofitable for poachers to come into our territorial waters. There should therefore be some liaison between this Department and the Fisheries Branch in this respect.

On the question of the Naval Service, I suggest that one of our patrol boats should be stationed in the west of Ireland. I do not say it should be at Killybegs or Galway, but somewhere in north-west Mayo. I understand, though I do not know it personally, that there is a port in Mayo, Broadhaven, which would command the entire seaboard from Achill Head to Glen Head in Donegal. A boat stationed there could protect the waters of Donegal Bay and extend right over that entire area. If the Minister does not consider Broadhaven, I would strongly recommend Killybegs.

We must have protection and I think this could most adequately be given from what we call the jungle of Broadhaven Stags which is now being poached out by Spanish and French trawlers, not to speak of the Fleetwood men. It is essential we should have a patrol boat stationed within striking distance of this valuable fishing ground. As long as it is stationed somewhere in the north-west, I do not mind, but if our boats are stationed down in Cork, by the time they are contacted and moved north, they are far too late to catch the poachers. I know of no more ideal location than Broadhaven Stags and I would recommend that the Minister form a liaison with the Fisheries Branch and consider that matter. After all, the only useful purpose of our naval arm in peacetime is the protection of our fisheries. All they need protection from are the foreign trawlers and it is on those we should concentrate.

I should like to join other Deputies in congratulating the Minister on some of the things he has done for the Army. He has gone a long way to provide some comforts which undoubtedly were badly needed. I would, however, appeal to him to go farther. There is no way in which he can find out the wants and needs of the Army at the moment; the private soldier is unable to place before the proper authorities his grouses and complaints. The only place he airs them is the canteen or some recreation hall. By the time they have reached the ear of the CO, they are completely distorted. We have in this country an organisation of exservicemen, ONE, comprising all ranks who served in our National Army, men who know what their own complaints and grievances were. The Minister should not be afraid to meet these men, listen to their suggestions and, as far as possible, carry them out.

Mr. Sherwin

This morning, I rang up the House to find out what business was being taken. When I heard it was the Defence Estimate, I came over. Otherwise, I would have stayed in bed. Usually on this Estimate, we have six or seven speakers, and I happen to be one of them. Most Deputies dealt with the details of the Estimate, the different subheads, and while I shall also do so, I should like mainly to discuss the purpose of the Army. When Estimates of this sort are being discussed in Britain, America and elsewhere, one of the main functions of the Opposition is to consider whether the Estimates are sufficient for defence against potential enemies. It is on that that the main debate takes place.

I want to deal mainly with the main purpose of the Army here. The question arises: do we want an Army at all? Is a police force or a part-time military force sufficient? If not, would a small force, much smaller than we now have, fill the bill instead of thinking in terms of a standing Army? I do not flatter myself that I am an expert. However, I am a very keen student of military history. I also take a great interest in European power politics as a hobby. In fact, a week does not pass that I do not read several books on these subjects. In the light of the knowledge so gained, I judge this Estimate.

We needed an army when the State was founded because of the troubles here, but we have now reached a stage when it is questionable whether we need this type of army. We have had experience of sending a few battalions to the Congo, and I hope we will continue to find experience like that, but it is unlikely that we will need more than a battalion or two for such purposes. A small army would enable us to meet such contingencies and yet provide us with the nucleus of a training force. The Army is not needed for public honours. That has been readily proved. We have no ambitions in a military sense. We may have the North to think about but that is not a practical issue and it is not a matter we think of when we think in terms of an army, at this stage, at any rate. We think of defence but I cannot see our type of standing army as an instrument of defence.

The sort of people needed for defence would be the type who formed the IRA or the French Resistance, that ambitious, restless type who would not join a standing army. I submit that what we need is a streamlined army, necessarily a smaller army and even if a battalion or two are needed for the Congo, we can still provide them.

Included in the Estimate is a sum for the purchase of helicopters. I agree with that. We may have use for helicopters, whereas we have no use for military planes. I scrutinised the Estimate to see if there was a breakdown in regard to the figure required for our Air Corps. What purpose does it serve? We have planes in the country and I do not think they will be needed. What is the purpose of the air force? Could we not manage with a small air force, in view of the additional Estimate for helicopters? At least, helicopters may save lives here and there. Also, you can conceal a helicopter in a forest but it is not so easy to hide planes. If there were an invasion, the first target would be our planes. Anybody who studies invasions will know this. One has only to read of the German attack on Poland. Everything was planned down to the last and the planned were wiped out. We might retain a few planes for symbolic purposes but we could certainly economise in that regard.

On previous Estimates, I made the case that we should have no artillery. We did have big guns which were useless to us. If there were an invasion, we would have to go to the hills; we are not in a position to withstand invasion. The artillery would be thrown in some ditch. We should streamline the Army and not try to compare with some foreign country. Even Switzerland, in the centre of the Continent, and in danger of invasion at any time, has no standing army but only a part-time army. We are outside the European area of danger. We have Britain in front of us, whether we like it or not, and while Britain remains, we do not need an army because she will make sure that nobody gets in here.

Last night, I was reading about Hitler's intentions and what he said to the Gauleiter of Danzig. Hitler referred to Northern Ireland and said they could invade there. I admit you might need an army if the north were invaded because if there were any danger of that, it would be our business to go in there and take it first. I do not like to talk of a possible emergency of that kind but, as I see it, for a long time, we do not need any standing army as we have at present and if we need it, it should be a small force.

We should encourage such projects as the Congo to get our men out. There was a paragraph in an English newspaper last week saying that Irish soldiers were "browned off", they had nothing to do. That is true. It is hard to get the best type to join the Army. What is there for an ambitious person? In the case of the British army, there is always a war and soldiers like war. They may be killed but that is part of the trade. They get excitement and perhaps promotion. There is always the possibility of a marshal's baton. That does not apply here. It is understandable that the men should be "browned off". If the Army were smaller and better paid, perhaps you could hold them. Perhaps you could excite them by sports, by giving prize money or something of that kind. We should do something to avoid this annual expense which I think is too high. We should endeavour to send out our troops for United Nations purposes. The German Electors in the 18th and 19th century maintained large forces but did it cheaply by lending them out. During the '98 period, we had Hessians here from the kingdom of Hesse in Germany. They were lent for payment. We do not want that but we should encourage sending our troops out for humane purposes that might save us money and at the same time provide excitement for the men.

Deputy Carroll referred to the miserable pay of our men in the Congo. Perhaps in comparison with the pay of the Americans and Swedes, it was miserable but I do not think it is too bad. I had several men coming to me trying to get themselves sent to the Congo and I told them that I had nothing to do with it. They said if they went, they would get double the money. How does that compare with what Deputy Carroll said? It is not correct to say that they are badly paid except, perhaps, by comparison.

We should economise on planes, especially now when we are to have helicopters. I am delighted to have been able to take part in this debate and to know that every time there is a debate on this issue, I shall have my "say".

Mr. Booth

I should like to join in the tributes to our troops who have been in the Congo since this Estimate was last before the House. All the troops, our own and those of other nations, have done a remarkable job under the most incredibly trying circumstances, one of which has been the flood of adverse Press propaganda in other countries directed against United Nations troops.

Time and again, we see reports of complaints of outrages of all sorts alleged to have been committed by UN troops, including our own. In each case, while there has been a subsequent and very full denial, some of the mud has stuck and it must be extremely difficult to maintain morale among the troops when they know— as they do—that they are subject to this slander campaign. On the whole, they have done remarkably well, our own lads in particular. The fact that on several occasions they have been invited back to certain areas where they have served previously shows that their relations with the Congolese people have been extremely good. Both the Congolese and the Europeans have particularly requested the UN Command to send Irish troops to certain areas because of their steady behaviour which has been greatly appreciated in a turbulent situation.

I have already raised by Parliamentary Question the matter of the award of medals for gallantry. Awards for gallantry have been made on a fairly reasonable scale by other armies with troops in the Congo. It is not unreasonable that these awards should be made because these troops have been operating, up to very recently, very much under active service conditions and have actually been involved in hostilities. In actual combat, our troops have done extremely well and yet, so far, only one award has been made for gallantry and that was posthumous. That award was very well deserved.

I simply refuse to believe that no other officer, NCO or man of any of the battalions or units which have served in the Congo has conducted himself in such a way as to deserve a medal for gallantry. All the reports are entirely to the contrary. Accordingly, I asked the Minister to let me know the number of recommendations for medals. Unfortunately, I got the quick reply rather than the full one I was asking for. I was informed that the recommendations for the award of medals were made by boards of officers set up to advise the Minister; that one board had already sat and had recommended only the one medal to which I have referred already; that another board was in session and had made no recommendations so far.

What I wanted to find out and what I think in all conscience the Minister knew I wanted to find out was how many recommendations for the award of this medal had been made by officers. Accordingly, I reversed my question to deal with that particular point. I was informed it was not regarded as advisable that this figure should be given. I wish I had got a straight answer to that question.

The only reasons for some reticence on the part of the Minister can be either that the number of recommendations for the award of this medal was remarkably high or remarkably low. If the number of recommendations by officers in the field was high and only one medal was, in fact, awarded, that would give rise to adverse comment, while if the number of recommendations by officers in the field was low, it would mean that the officers took a fairly poor opinion of the officers, NCOs and men serving under them.

I have every reason to believe that a large number of recommendations have been made by officers for the award of this medal to officers, NCOs and men serving under them. I can see no reason why the award of these medals is being made on such a parsimonious basis. I would be all against dishing out medals just out of sheer exuberance: we do not wish to cheapen this medal in any way. However, the opportunity for earning the medal has been very limited up to now. I feel it would have done a tremendous lot of good for the morale of the men if this question of the award of medals had been treated in a more serious way.

There have been numerous cases in which our troops have been heavily engaged and in which they have done extremely well. We have had action such as the attack and the taking of the Tunnel. It was a tactical objective which cost us dearly enough but it was a very important objective and was taken in the teeth of very strong opposition. In that case, we had press reports from French reporters, from what they saw themselves, about the conduct of the Irish officer in charge of the troops who continued, as they said, to behave as coolly as if he were on parade even though he was under very heavy fire at the time and who continued doing so until, in their own words, he was shot to pieces. Under those circumstances, an NCO took charge and completed the operation with complete success. Unless these reports are grossly exaggerated — and no report so far in support of our troops has ever been grossly exaggerated—I can only assume that awards for gallantry were certainly deserved in that case—and there were many others, too.

I would therefore ask the Minister to reconsider this question of the award of medals because these boards of officers set up by the Chief of Staff must have been given some guiding principle. If the principle is that the award of this medal should only be for cases of absolutely outstanding gallantry such as would justify one of the senior awards in other Armies—the Congressional Medal of Honour or the Victoria Cross or the George Cross or something like that—I think it is going too far. I would hope the Minister would discuss the matter with the Chief of Staff to ensure that these boards of officers set up to make recommendations to him are given a certain amount of discretion in the matter and a certain amount of encouragement.

I put down another question on the matter of these boards. I asked how they were made up and how many members of each board had combat experience under active service conditions. Here again, I was sidetracked with the answer that combat experience was not an essential qualification for membership of the board. Of course, I knew: we all do. However, that looks to me horribly like a coverup of a very obvious and in many ways understandable fact that none of the officers forming this board has even been in combat under active service conditions. I think that is not a matter which is proper and I would hope that officers with combat experience should be included in the boards.

We have had discussions on the question of the strength of the Defence Forces. Deputy Sherwin thinks that the Army is too large. I would take issue with him on that point. I think the number in the Defence Forces is far too low. It is well below establishment and is well below what is provided for in the Estimate. When the strength is too low, it is impossible for the Army to do its job properly because those who are actually in the Army are overburdened with heavy duties of all sorts. They are garrisoning barracks, stations and camps all over the country. Every barracks needs a tremendous amount of maintenance and running which means that a large number of men are involved on fatigues of all sorts and it is that sort of duty that gets a man browned off —and I do not blame him.

I suggested last year, and I suggest again, that some effort should be made to keep on regular soldiers who have reached normal retiring age and to form them into some auxiliary unit for the discharge of ordinary barrack fatigues. The old soldier knows his way around the barracks. He does not have to be supervised to any extent. He would make a very good fatigue man. With his pension and Army pay as well he would do remarkably well for himself but it would mean that those of our soldiers who are of a younger age group would be able to be retained as active service troops and not as sweepers, cleaners, fetchers and carriers.

Even the question of guard duty is a very heavy burden, so much so that it is a constant worry how the guards will be furnished in the city of Dublin. I understand a proposal was made that members of the FCA should be invited to assist by taking over guard duties in city barracks over the week-end.

Mr. Coogan

They do it.

Mr. Booth

They were recently invited to do it. Even if that scheme were to work, it is a terrible test of enthusiasm for an FCA man to be asked to give up his Saturday, just for the fun of easing guard duties for regular soldiers and to get for that national duty his rations, probably cold by the time they reach the guard room, and a bed to sleep on on the Sunday unless he wants to go home and, at most, two days' pay. That sort of duty is not very attractive and yet some of the FCA have done it, but my information—it may not be up to date—is that the scheme did not work out because NCOs in the FCA were not available to act as NCO guards.

This question of the Army being below strength must be dealt with. It is no use dealing with it by reducing standards acceptable for recruiting. We should approach it in the direct opposite way. We should refuse to accept anyone into the Army who is not of a certain height and a certain standard of strength and physical fitness.

Mr. Coogan

What about Napoleon? What height was he?

Mr. Booth

Napoleon was a FieldMarshal rather than a fighting soldier. I do not know that anybody ever saw him in combat. As far as the private soldier is concerned, physique is a major matter. Many of these young recruits are obviously children. I am not mistaking ordinary recruits for recruits for the Army School of Music because I can see from their insignia that they are infantry soldiers or are training to be such but they are far too small and are obviously under age. There was a case not so long ago of a recruit in a detention barracks in Cork who was found to be aged 15 which, of course, is ludicrous. The boy had to be discharged immediately, not only from the detention barracks but from the Forces. Anyone who has eyes could have seen that the recruit was too young but in an effort to keep up the numbers, I am afraid recruiting officers are saying: "If you can walk in from the door, we will take you." That is bad for morale, too, because when a real soldier sees a child being drafted in to stand beside him, he says: "This is becoming more of a nursery than an Army." We must raise the standard and make sure the men we recruit to the Army are fine, upstanding men. There are hundreds and thousands of them who would come in if only they were given encouragement to do so.

During the emergency, we had some magnificent bodies of troops and there is no reason to believe that the physical standards have been reduced in any way since that time so far as the nation is concerned. The men are available but they are not coming into the Army. If it were felt that to get into the Army was an achievement, more people would be anxious to do it. At the moment anybody who is not deaf, dumb, blind or crippled in some way can get in. That is not the way it should be. It is much harder to get into the Garda Síochána than it is to get into the Army. We should be every bit as strict, if not stricter, in regard to the Army——

Mr. Coogan

Is that not a reflection on the Army? The Deputy should withdraw it.

Mr. Booth

It certainly is, and I am sorry. I do not want to be rude about the Army but I do think they are being given material which no reasonable person could turn into decent soldiers. There are some first-rate soldiers, officers, NCOs and men but they are being asked to do a job without being given the material to work on. In order to get this proper standard, a far better recruiting policy is necessary. When I mentioned this last year, I was assured by the Minister that a qualified advertising agency was employed to deal with advertising for recruiting campaigns. I am far from satisfied with the standard in this connection. I do not think any of the recruiting advertisements I have seen would entice anyone to join the Army.

One thing I cannot understand in connection with this recruiting campaign is that there is an obvious ruling from somewhere that no reference must be made in recruiting propaganda to the possibility of United Nations service overseas. I do not know what is the snag about that. This is one of the greatest things that has happened to the Army since the end of the emergency. We should be able and willing to say to our people: "Join the Army as a form of national service and also as a form of international service. If you join up under the new conditions of service, you will be liable to be drafted to the far ends of the earth to act as policeman and as a preserver of the peace in any of the continents."

That is an exciting prospect. It gives a soldier a sense of purpose but we never mention that in our recruiting. All we say is that if you join the Army, you will be able to play certain games and you will get a certain wage, and even that is put in a rather twisted way because it gives the income of a private soldier in a certain fashion and then in small type, it says that rations, clothing and equipment are taken into account. That is confusing the issue. I should hope we would go headlong into a proper campaign in order to get the very best of our men to join the Army and to stay in it on a longterm basis. That can be done if we pay them sufficiently well. Some increase in pay is essential. Like others, I am delighted that the general standard of living of our troops at home appears to be improving but there is a tremendous amount of room for further improvement, as I am sure the Minister is aware.

One of the things which discourages a man who is thinking of joining the Army is that the rates of pay appear to be so low. It is difficult to find the money for any general increase in rates of pay and we are naturally anxious not to go on spending more money than is absolutely necessary. There is a considerable chance of economies which could be effected in order to balance the cost of any increase in pay.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.