Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 19 Jul 1963

Vol. 204 No. 10

Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1963: Second Stage.

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The Bill is designed to provide for the further financing of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Ltd. the finances of which are provided at present under the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Ltd. Acts, 1959 and 1961. The main provisions of the Bill are:

(i) to increase from £3,000,000 to £4,000,000 the aggregate of the amounts which the Minister for Finance may subscribe in taking up shares of the company;

(ii) to increase from £1,250,000 to £2,000,000 the aggregate amount of grants, voted annually, which may be made to the company;

(iii) to increase from £400,000 to £2,000,000 the existing statutory limit on repayable advances by the Minister for Finance for housing purposes; and

(iv) to provide for the payment to the company of grants for houses in line with grants normally payable under the Housing Acts and also for the payment of housing subsidies.

Deputies will be well aware of the functions of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company which is charged, generally, with promoting the welfare of Shannon Airport, with particular emphasis on the encouragement of commercial, industrial and trading enterprises at the Airport. While the stimulation of passenger and freight traffic through the Airport remains a primary concern of the company, it was realised at an early stage of the company's existence that the greatest scope for its energies lay in the development of the industrial estate and the taking advantage of the attractions for industry which already existed at Shannon, viz. freedom from customs restrictions, enjoyment of certain taxation privileges and proximity to an international airport holding a key position between America and Europe.

In order further to encourage the setting up of industries at the airport, factory buildings, which may be rented, are provided by the company. Factories may also be purchased outright or may be built on sites leased from the company with the aid of grants from the company. Grants are also made available for machinery and for the training of workers. Houses for employees of the industrial estate are also provided by the company at reasonable rents or to purchase and developed sites are made available for executive-type houses and for speculative building.

The share capital subscribed to the company has been used for the provision of factory buildings and dwelling houses, and associated services, the rents from which go to supplement the company's grants-in-aid. The repayable advances have been used to meet one-half of the expenditure by the company on the provision of housing. The grants-in-aid are applied towards meeting the company's running expenses and providing financial assistance to industries including grants towards factory buildings, new machinery and the training of workers. The finances provided to the company under existing legislation up to 30th June, 1963, were as follows:

Share Capital	£2,910,000
Repayable Advances	£400,000
Grant-in-Aid	£905,500

Of these amounts, £2,270,000 has been expended on the industrial estate, £1,040,000 on the housing estate, £492,000 on grants to industrialists and £413,500 on the running expenses of the company. It is now urgently necessary to increase the limits under existing legislation to enable the company to continue to function.

The company was set up a little over four years ago. I think it will be agreed that its record in that short time has been one of considerable achievement. Deputies had the opportunity about a year ago of seeing for themselves what has been accomplished on the industrial and housing estates. At 30th June, 1963, 12 factories and six trading enterprises were in operation and a total of 1,698 workers were employed of whom 917 were male and 781 female. This employment has approximately doubled the number of persons employed at the airport.

The output of these factories, practically all of which is exported, includes products as diverse as pianos and floor polishers, electronic equipment and knitwear, diamond drills and radios. Twenty-six standard factory premises and three smaller premises were completed all but one of which were occupied. Together with a special factory constructed by an industrialist with the aid of a grant from the company, the total area of factory space as at 30th June, 1963, was 509,190 square feet. Eight standard factory premises are under construction giving a total area of factory space when these are completed of 656,940 square feet. Ancillary services including water, sewerage, electricity and a boiler house have also been provided. Thirty-eight houses and 137 flats have been built and 158 houses are under construction or contracted for. Thirty-five houses and 123 flats are already occupied. A community centre comprising a shop, bank and recreation hall has been provided and four shops are under construction. Arrangements are also in train for the provision of other amenities necessary for a growing population.

Five existing industries are expected to require additional factory premises in the near future and new industries are expected to be set up in the next year with a considerable expansion in employment. Plans are in hand for the construction of six further factory premises. By the middle of 1964, the company's factory building programme is expected to comprise 40 standard factories completed or under construction and three small factories completed, eight warehousing units, a boiler house and a commercial office block. While a certain amount of factory accommodation must be provided in anticipation of actual demand, factories are built on the basis of likely demand and building programmes are sanctioned on this basis. It is, of course, impossible to foresee exactly the extent of future development but the increase in the share capital to £4 million should be sufficient for the time being.

Housing is provided in parallel with industrial development, of which it is an integral part. Shannon is in a somewhat isolated position and it is essential in order to attract workers who do not reside within convenient reach of the Airport, that a sufficiency of living accommodation at reasonable rents be provided so as to cater for both married and unmarried workers desiring to live adjacent to their work. It is necessary to strike a balance between planning on an over-ambitious scale so that houses might be left unoccupied and on the other hand under-planning to the extent that workers would be discouraged from taking up employment at the Airport because of the lack of suitable accommodation. Housing is, therefore, provided on a minimum but expandable basis. This means that the schemes are planned to meet the known demand but that they are expandable to meet very quickly new requirements which may arise. The company is careful to keep in line with governmental and local authority requirements in its planning and construction of houses and its aim is to develop the housing estate in accordance with the best principles of town planning. Because of its isolated position and the need to develop sites and to provide services, the cost of housing at Shannon is relatively high, but contracts are placed by open competitive tendering which ensures that costs are kept at a competitive level.

Expenditure on housing and community services up to 30th June, 1963, provided out of share capital and repayable advances amounted to £1,040,000. Under existing legislation, repayable advances up to a maximum of £400,000 could be made to the company to meet one-half of the expenditure on housing. The Bill provides that all expenditure on the provision of dwellings and community services, including expenditure already defrayed out of share capital, will now be met by way of repayable advances. These advances are repayable over a period of 35 years at the current Exchequer lending rate, this being the basis on which advances are made for local authority housing. With the increase in the limit on repayable advances to £2 million a further £960,000 will be available to meet expenditure on housing after 30th June, 1963. In addition to housing for factory workers, the company provides developed sites for executive-type houses and for speculative building on the basis of the recovery of the full cost of development. As at 30th June, 1963, 20 sites had been provided for executive-type houses. The company is anxious to encourage speculative building at the Airport and is in negotiation with a number of builders in the matter.

The Bill provides for the payment from the Transport and Power Vote of a subsidy in respect of each dwelling or other unit of accommodation constructed by the company. The subsidy is necessary because the rents which it is considered the workers may reasonably be expected to pay fall short of the full economic rents. The economic rents are calculated on the full cost of construction after deduction of the equivalent of the normal housing grants available to private persons under the Housing Acts. In the early years, the subsidy will be relatively high but provision is made in the rental agreements for increases in the rents as wages generally increase thus reducing the amount of the subsidy required. Capital grants equivalent to the grants available to persons under the Housing Acts will also be payable and this is provided for in the Bill. The payment of these grants will be subject to compliance by the company with requirements similar to those laid down by the Housing Acts in the case of grants payable under these Acts.

The Bill also provides for an increase from £1.25 million to £2 million in the aggregate amount of grants payable to the company. These grants provide for the running expenses of the company and also enable the company to pay grants to industrialists for buildings, machinery and the training of workers. Grants paid to the company up to 30th June, 1963, amounted to £905,500. In addition, the company received £141,500 by way of rents and other income. £555,000 was used by the company for its running expenses and grants were made to industrialists as follows:

Machinery and equipment	£344,000
Factory premises	85,000
Training of workers	63,000

While the company's most fruitful field of operation lies in the development of the Industrial Estate, it should also be remembered that a primary purpose of the setting up of the company was to stimulate passenger and freight traffic through the Airport. The combined number of transit and terminal passengeres using the Airport decreased only slightly in 1962 over 1961 but the company is urgently concerned to secure Shannon's share of the traffic growth on the North Atlantic as well as to attract passengers from Britain and the Continent. The evolution of faster and longer-range aircraft is necessarily having an adverse effect on transit traffic through the Airport but the company has set up a travel promotion department to take advantage of the opportunities which undoubtedly exist for the development of tourist traffic through the Airport.

In its tourist promotion activities, the company, of course, co-operates fully with other tourist promotion bodies including Bord Fáilte and the air companies. The success of the local tour arranged for tourists taking in places of scenic and historical interest and culminating in the mediaeval banquet in the restored Bunratty Castle is an example of what can be achieved by imaginative planning. A further development will be the establishment of a folk park in conjunction with the Bunratty Castle project. I myself visited the folk park at Arnhem and was so utterly convinced of its national value and attraction to tourists that I suggested a similar development to the Shannon company. I am glad to say that the initial problems have now been solved and that a folk park will shortly be added to the attractions of the Shannon region. The cost will be borne equally by the company, Bord Fáilte and an amenity from the Department of Local Government. The park will be operated by the Shannon company in conjunction with Bunratty Castle.

The main objective of the promotion drive is to establish Shannon Airport as the natural gateway for American visitors to the south-western and western areas with all the amenities they offer for mountain, lake and shore scenery, fishing, golfing, hunting and archaeological study. In this connection may I repeat what I have said earlier. Neither SFADCO——

Mr. Sweetman

What is that— SFADCO?

Mr. Childers

The Shannon Free Airport Development Company.

Mr. Sweetman

This habit of everybody of putting letters to everything is irritating.

Mr. Childers

We do it all the time.

Neither the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, Bord Fáilte nor the national airline alone can promote tourist development at a sufficient pace to offset the inevitable decline to some extent of transit traffic at the Airport. Regional tourist associations equipped by local authorities and other local interests with promotional funds representing a percentage of tourist spending in the areas can help to create their own image of each tourist area, can stimulate group hotel publicity, encourage group booking, entertain travel writers and agents and can assist in local resort development and in promoting interest in fishing, golf etc.

I am glad to see that the regional tourist association movement is beginning to progress in the area. Contacts with Americans of Irish origin organised on a regional basis is one example of tourist promotion offering a great potential in the future. Kerry, Limerick, Clare and Galway—the Shannon Counties—are competing with regional development competitive promotion work all over Europe. The growth of terminal freight traffic through the Airport is slow mainly because of the great disparity at present existing between air and surface rates but as air freight costs lessen it is expected that the volume of air shipments will increase substantially. Nearly half of the terminal freight generated at Shannon in 1962 was attributable to the industrial estate and in the first quarter of this year air freight generated by the Industrial Estate was up by 15 per cent compared with the first quarter of 1962. Three firms at the Airport engage in freight forwarding and consolidation and two other firms in warehousing operations while two American companies of international repute are considering Shannon as a distribution point for their markets in the UK, Europe, the Middle East and Africa.

A big expansion in warehousing activities is expected as a result of an extensive campaign publicising the advantages which the Free Airport holds for freight warehousing and distribution. By the provision of warehouse facilities, air cargo is attracted to the airport for storage and redistribution. Shannon is very well placed as a centre for entrepot and distribution operations but to develop the Airport's potential in this field it is necessary to provide adequate facilities.

Eight warehousing units, each of about 3,500 square feet, are being provided initially by the company with provision for expansion to meet demand. The introduction recently by Pan-American Airways of an all-cargo Boeing jet freighter service through Shannon linking cities in the United States with important European and Middle East centres should also provide a very considerable fillip to the growth of air freight through the Airport while the company is active in endeavouring to secure improved cargo rates, improved services including increased frequencies and speedy clearance at destinations, and the publicising of the facilities available by air.

There is no reason to believe that the outlook for the future of the Estate is other than bright but we must, of course, combine optimism with prudence. The concept of an industrial estate at Shannon was a revolutionary and therefore, speculative one. That so much has been achieved in such a short time justifies the bold and imaginative experiment undertaken four years ago and I am convinced that it will continue to play its important part in the economy. The financial limits proposed in this Bill are realistic though they may perhaps be a little on the tight side since they represent only the minimum financing which the company will require in the next few years. If I have to come back to the House before that time, I will make no apology as the need for further finances will be a measure of the company's success.

In the meantime, it is with confidence that I ask for approval for this Bill, in giving which Deputies will have expressed their satisfaction with the achievements of the company to date and their confidence in its continued progress. For my own part, I wish to congratulate the Board and management of the company and also the management of the various enterprises in the estate on the results achieved; and to urge them to even greater efforts in the future.

I recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister will pardon me saying that it is rather ironical for him to be taken to task for an abbreviation because we all know that his tendencies in speech are rather the other way. The Bill itself is another example of the habit of this Government of bringing in measures of this sort involving very large sums of money at the tail-end of the Dáil programme so that they will not get, they hope, the full and complete consideration they would get if introduced at the proper time. I am not going to develop that except to say that the Minister himself is aware that even on the programme of business that had to be completed, this Bill was not included on the first occasion. However, it has come here now and beyond saying that method of doing business is not the right one and is one that must be changed if the Dáil is to act as a proper consultative and criticising assembly, I shall make no further comment. These changes not merely must be made but must be made at once.

I hope the Minister will be more successful in regard to this project than the Taoiseach was in regard to the Verolme project which he announced in June, 1959 and about which we heard a sad-ish story yesterday. I trust the Minister's reputation and the reputation of the child he now has in his arms will be better than the Cork child and indeed certain other children his colleagues are attempting to make out are healthy but which in fact are quite the reverse. These are merely methods by which slush money can be poured out instead of being put into proper productive investment.

I was amused and very gratified to hear the Minister say that the future of Shannon depended on its being made a regional distribution centre for air freight. Fianna Fáil have a habit of taking quotations out of their context and have done that in a most unjust, unfair and disreputable way. Twenty years ago, the Leader of the Opposition said that there was only one chance of keeping Shannon as a viable proposition and that was to use it as the entrepot of Europe in the same way as Hamburg is used as the entrepot for shipping and that if it was not used in that way, Shannon would be overrun by rabbits.

Fianna Fáil were very keen on quoting the second part but completely ignoring the first part of that speech but the Minister today has come in in relation to this Bill and has completely vindicated the view then expressed by the Leader of the Opposition. With faster-flying, longer-range aircraft, if Shannon is to survive, it must survive in this way. We all know how Hamburg is the distributing centre for shipping for the whole of Western Europe and if we are to have a future, now that jet aircraft can fly safely such tremendous distances and now that it is not necessary even in adverse winds to touch down at the nearest point on either side of the Atlantic, it is only by following out what the Leader of the Opposition said 20 years ago that the investment at Shannon can be brought to a satisfactory yield. I am glad the Minister, albeit unwillingly and without reference to the Leader of the Opposition, has accepted the wisdom of what he said 20 years ago.

In relation to the Bill itself, I am still not quite clear in regard to the exact basis on which the financial provisions are founded. I am not quite clear as to the basis upon which the computations are made of the additional sums required and I do not understand the method of financing proposed. I do not understand how it is now proposed to adjust the difference between share capital, on the one hand, and advances, on the other hand. As I understand the matter, the entire capital of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company is held by the Minister for Finance. Perhaps the Minister would oblige me by confirming that I am right in that respect? If I am right in that respect, what is the reason for breaking up the financing of the company between share capital, on the one hand, and advances, on the other? In normal commercial life, that arises because it is intended that the share capital will be the permanent investment and the advances will be something temporary which it is intended at a later stage to pay off or to translate into share capital by way of public issues.

Is it believed that the advances which are being increased from £400,000 to £2 million are only temporary advances that will be paid off and that of the total investment of £4 million authorised under this Bill, £2 million will be repaid and £2 million remain outstanding on a permanent basis? The manner in which the headings 1 and 3 are set out in the Minister's speech would give that impression, taken commercially, but then, of course, the Minister later on says the schedule is made on a very tight basis and that he may have to come to the House again. It does not seem to me to hang together as a sensible operation.

That is another reason why this type of legislation should not come in at the tail end of a session. It would be far more desirable to have a substantial period between the speech by the Minister on Second Reading and the other Stages of the Bill so that not merely could one consider what the Minister has said but, in addition make such inquiries outside the House as might be necessary to comment on his statement more fully at a later stage, such as on the Money Resolution.

The Minister, perhaps, when he is replying, will deal specifically with that point. As I say, the share capital is set out as £2,910,000 and repayable advances as only £400,000 and while the share capital is being increased by £1 million, the advances are being increased by £1,600,000. It seems to me to be completely out of reality to suggest that the moneys being provided now by way of repayable advances are, in fact, any less permanently invested than the share capital as such.

The Minister also referred to the fact that on 30th of last month, there were 12 factories and six trading enterprises on the estate. At a later stage in his speech, he referred to three firms engaged in freight forwarding and two other firms engaged in warehousing operations. Are these five firms referred to intended to be five out of the six mentioned by him as trading enterprises and, if so, why was he so coy about the sixth? Is there any particular reason for that?

The Minister discussed housing in relation to the Airport. There were two possible ways of considering the housing of workers there. It would have been possible either to do as the Minister has done, to house them directly in the Airport itself or to build up the surrounding towns and villages into what one might call satellites for the Airport for housing purposes. It is a matter about which I frankly admit there could be two opinions. I am not as fully acquainted with that area as other Deputies who represent it are but, at the same time, I know a little about it and it would have appeared to me to be an opportunity to reverse the trend that is all too patent today in Irish rural life where we see small towns and villages dying out year after year.

It would have been possible, I am sure, to do something in that area to reverse that trend and probably to be able to do it cheaper, even with a recurrent cost of transport into the area, than the whole new building that is being carried out and that the Minister now envisages. I would have thought that it would have been better to build the area around it rather than to create an entirely new housing estate, an entirely new town, and I do not think the journey necessary would be such as to make those housing arrangements so difficult or so costly.

I presume the Minister, in referring to the economic rents of the houses and talking about the subsidy being relatively high in the early years, in fact means that the rents are calculated on something equivalent to the differential rents scale to which we have become used in local authority housing, a differential rents scale apparently calculated on a somewhat different basis. I wish to hear a little more about that.

The Minister did not purport to give us any information about the expenditure of £555,000 for running expenses. I am not clear whether that is intended to cover just the year to 30th June or what period, but it is part of the general problem of control and information about State companies. As I say, the end of a session is not the time to consider all that. The failure of the Verolme project to live up to its original promise and the manner in which State enterprises are every day looking for more money makes it quite obvious now that this whole problem is one which can no longer remain pigeonholed but must be faced at some stage in the immediate future.

I am in some doubt about the establishment of the Folk Park to which the Minister has referred in the vicinity of Bunratty, for the reason that I gather that what is intended is something entirely typical of Irish national cultural life. I have frequently taken and paid for, at a not unreasonable price, let me say, the hospitality of the hotel there. It is not an hotel in the vicinity of which the Minister could conceivably plant a folk park representative of Irish national and cultural life. The provision of one in propinquity to the other is something that only someone with a split personality would be able to conceive. This does not seem to me to be a feasible proposition at all, unless the Minister is proposing that his park will be on the other side of the river and that one could go away from it across the river to a different mode of life altogether. However, I am sure the planning of such a matter will not defeat the ingenuity of those who are so excellent at announcing plans but so bad at ever putting them into actual operation in such manner as to benefit the country as a whole.

I do not propose to say more except to repeat that I object to legislation of this sort being thrown at us at the end of a session, legislation involving a substantial outlay and involving of necessity therefore, an adequate opportunity for consideration of that outlay. I am glad the Minister in his speech on this Bill has taken the opportunity of acknowledging that Deputy Dillon was right when he said, 20 years ago, that the only future for Shannon Airport was to make it an entrepot for air traffic in Western Europe in the same way as Hamburg became a sea entrepot over the years.

Mr. McQuillan

The last speaker referred to a split personality. That description reminds me very much of the Minister because, on every occasion given to him in the last 12 months, he has devoted himself to a condemnation of subsidies in any shape or form. At every chamber of commerce dinner, at every function at which he was allowed to speak, and here in this House, he has condemned the idea of subsidies, right, left and centre. In his dislike of subsidies, he has allowed CIE to tear up the railway lines of this country. He is the Minister who comes in here this morning and asks for money to subsidise—that is the only word I can use—what is turning out now to be a very doubtful proposition for the country.

The Minister's must be a split personality. Why is it wrong to subsidise the railways, which are providing a vital service, and why is it right to subsidise houses, flats, castles and luxury apartments for the executives of fly-by-night companies?

Mr. A. Barry

All the flying is done by day now.

Mr. Childers

We are not discussing CIE on this Bill, I hope.

An Ceann Comhairle

No.

Mr. McQuillan

I am making a comparison. Is the Minister for or against subsidies? Can he be against subsidies for the type of thing I have mentioned, the preservation of vital traffic links, and for them when the subject happens to be a pet of his own? There is no proper fundamental philosophy in this Minister for Transport and Power. There is no right thinking. His is a pragmatic approach.

His opening speech reminded me of an auctioneer trying to sell a bad property. The more he spoke, the less inclined one was to fall for what he was trying to sell. He brought in everything he could think of; the only thing he left out were the hostesses in Bunratty. Every other possible attraction was mentioned in his effort to sell this measure to the House.

Now, if this is the way in which the Minister and his Government want to spend the money they are going to raise by way of the turnover tax, then let me tell the Minister that the list of priorities is all haywire. He stated that this measure was designed to provide money to promote the welfare primarily of Shannon Airport. Let us examine that. What does it mean? Promote the welfare of Shannon Airport. Has it been decided that, in spite of economic reports, findings and everything else, Shannon Airport must be kept going at all costs? Has it been decided that for the sake of prestige, money must be poured into this company, and this locality, and that at a time when the needs of other areas are neglected?

I say the priority list is all wrong. Promote the welfare of Shannon Airport. Provide there sites for factories, build factories, give to those who come to set up industries and provide work, ten years, or more, free of taxes on pretty nearly everything; give them every possible facility, but have no control over them so that, so soon as they have made their money, they can fold their tents and disappear overnight. Build luxury flats and houses in this locality in which 95 per cent of the raw material going into the factories for processing has to be imported from abroad. Spend the Irish taxpayers money on that while the people living on small holdings in the surrounding counties in Connacht are left with no alternative except the boat to Britain or to the United States of America, for the small group that can get in there.

Within the last month, a meeting was held in the west of Ireland and at that meeting the horribly serious plight of the families in the west was discussed. There was no sign of Government support in the form of money to help there. Yet millions can be poured into Shannon Airport to help it, to preserve it, to give a living there primarily to those in executive positions. We know, and it is beyond dispute, that a number of firms which have come in have paid shameful wages to their workers. Young girls have been forced to travel ten and up to 20 miles to work at the lowest wages in Europe.

Mr. Childers

None of the wages is below trade union rates.

Mr. McQuillan

We know that there is the biggest turnover of labour in Europe at the Shannon Free Airport because of the pay and conditions. It is always a bad sign of employment conditions when there is a big turnover in labour. It is a sign that you are only getting in young people who want to get a few shillings together and then emigrate. You can see the advertisements in the local papers or the placards inviting men and women to work at Shannon. Even people landing at Shannon are invited to take up work. They cannot get people to stay. But there has been no criticism or crib by the executive class or the managerial class. They get priority. They will get the luxury flats and the best houses but the workers can travel 20 miles by bus for £3 or £4 per week. This is the new Ireland that is being built while entire families in the west of Ireland have to get out.

Go down to Limerick and you will see closely-knit groups of Europeans, with their children being taught their own language, living apart from the native population, so that when the time comes, they can fold their tents and disappear. They are not becoming part of the Irish population; they are not being absorbed into the Irish way of life. Perhaps you may get the individual family where a son or a daughter turns out to be a great step-dancer or who speaks the Irish language and then that family is singled out as an example of what these people are doing. One swallow never made a summer.

As I said, 95 per cent of the raw material used in these factories is imported while all around, within 40 miles land, which can produce raw material for processing, is being neglected. In parts of my constituency, you cannot even see the land for want of drainage, but there is no money for that. What is the position? First of all, we must promote the welfare of Shannon Airport and one of the ways to do that is to give grants, build factories, build houses for all those groups who are assembling transistor sets, and so on, in it. Having decided that that was not sufficient to preserve Shannon, we go into the tourist field. Every Deputy is in favour of promoting tourism and I do not object to money being spent in County Clare or any tourist area if it is spent for the purpose of developing tourism, on a proper line but we must sound a note of warning when we find this type of expenditure. Anybody who comes here with his own money is entitled to spend it whatever way he likes, on building any kind of hotel or guest-house, or developing a park, but when it comes to the utilisation of grants from the State, it is time we had another look at the matter.

To suggest that anything around Bunratty is typical of Ireland is sheer nonsense. Deputies may get up and criticise me about this but is it typical even in the very description—"in silent Bunratty"—or even the description of the girls who work in it and who are described as hostesses? In any other place, they would be described as waitresses but here the snobbery has to come in. It would make you sick to think of all the humbug that goes on and then to look at the little split personality in charge of his development work. To promote the welfare of Shannon Airport is the Minister's main objective. What has happened the companies which are in production there? It was hoped they would export their products through Shannon Airport but what has happened? Last week when I sought to extract the facts from the Minister, he tried to suggest that the figures presented by leading spokesmen for Pan-American Airways or other airways were incorrect.

I again challenge the Minister. Is it not a fact that many of these companies are now exporting overland or by ship? Is it not a fact that it has been found more advantageous and more economical for them to send their goods by road to the north of Ireland and from there to Britain and elsewhere or to export direct by sea? Was it not one of the reasons why this House was asked to provide money for this company to ensure that it would use air transport from Shannon? The fact that they are not using the runways beside them is not a hopeful sign for that Airport.

Why are conditions not laid down when grants are being given to these companies that they must use air freight if the intention is to promote Shannon Airport? What are the Government doing? We have a transatlantic air company and what are they doing? They touch down at Shannon but they fly on to Dublin and if the Government were serious, there would be only one stop and that would be Shannon. We know that there has been pressure from the people, from the tourists and from air companies for the planes to land at Dublin and the Irish airline people are no fools. We have to accept that Dublin is a place to which people want to come. They do not want to come to Shannon and be delayed half an hour there when their destination is Dublin. We saw when President Kennedy was here that he was able to cover the whole country——

Mr. Childers

We are not discussing the policy of the air companies.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I was about to point out that this is not relevant to the Bill which deals with the development of Shannon and the industrial section of Shannon.

Mr. McQuillan

The Minister has stated that it is for the welfare of the country——

Mr. Childers

It has nothing to do with the policy of the air company.

Mr. McQuillan

It is a very important measure brought in at the tail-end of the session to the House and the Minister is not prepared to allow a discussion——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise.

Mr. Sweetman

I must confess I do not see why it does not. If you read the Minister's speech——

Mr. A. Barry

We are all interested in this matter. I think the Chair and the Minister would be wise to allow the debate to be widened. I feel the matter would be discussed in proper focus by taking the whole perspective together.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

So long as it is relevant.

Mr. Sweetman

I think the Chair will find it is relevant.

Mr. McQuillan

I shall not go any further. I feel the Government are trying to put off the evil day. They know that at present strong pressure is being exercised against Shannon by other companies, particularly American companies. The day will come when Dublin Airport will be the No. 1 Airport. Why should we go on spending money unless we are sure of a return?

Mr. A. Barry

Why not prevent Dublin Airport from becoming No. 1?

Mr. McQuillan

Let us decide one way or the other.

I know I shall be laughed at for my view as to the future of Shannon Airport. Any Deputy who has any knowledge of military matters will understand and appreciate that nowhere in Europe is there a better military base than at Shannon Estuary. It is the best in Europe. I have a feeling that before very long the houses and the luxury flats in Shannon will be used for housing American military men and technicians and designers. I have a feeling that the factories erected in Shannon will be used for the storage of American equipment. I have a feeling that the Airport will be used as an air base and that Shannon Estuary will be a sea base. I hope I am wrong.

I shall do everything I possibly can outside this House to ensure that that will not happen, but, as a result of the statement of the Taoiseach in this House within the past fortnight, I have a feeling that the very significant talks between himself and President Kennedy included the idea of Ireland's being a very strong base for America outside NATO altogether—away altogether from NATO—and that next October or November when the Taoiseach visits the United States, this is one of the matters which will carefully be discussed. It is quite possible that this country will be faced with a welcome issued on its behalf by the Taoiseach to the Americans to take over Shannon when all this money is poured into it and when the programme initiated by this Government is proved a failure.

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

Réitím le gnéithe áirithe den Bhille seo ach tá gnéithe eile dhe agus ní mór é mo bháidh leo. Réitím leis an gcuid de a bhaineas le tógáil monarchan agus bunú tionnscal ag Aerphort na Sionnainne. Is aoibhinn liom a chlos go bhfuil geall le 2,000 buachaill agus cailíní ó Chontae an Chláir agus ó Chontae Luimnigh ag obair ann. Tugaim cuairt ar an áit go minic. Bím ag caint leo agus níor chuala mé duine acu fós ag gearáin mar gheall ar an scála tuarastail atá acu. Ní réitím leis an méid adubhairt an Teachta Mac Choilín i dtaobh tuarastal ná neithe eile a bhaineas leis a gcomhlucht. Is eagal liom nach bhfuil aon ró-eolas aige ar an áit.

Nílim ro-shásta ámh le tógáil baile mór eile i gContae an Chláir. Tá go leor bailte mór agus beag againn cheana féin. Im thuairim-se, ba cheart na tithe do thógáil i gCorra Caitilín, i gCaisleán an Chláir, in Inis, i nDroichead Abhann Uí Chearnaigh agus i Luimneach. Tá Corra Caitilín i ngiorracht cúig míle den Aerphort, Caisleán an Chláir, tuairim 12 míle den Aerphort, Inis, 15 míle; Droichead Abhann Uí Chearnaigh, sé míle agus Luimneach 15 míle den Aerphort. Ní thuigim, dá bhrí sin, cad na thaobh go ndubhairt an tAire gur áit iar-gcualda é seo agus go raibh géar-gá le tithe do thógáil ann. Dá ndéanfí na tithe do thógáil ins na bailte a luaidh mé, ní bheadh ar an gcomhlucht siopaí, scoileanna, ná eaglais ar bith do thógáil ag an Aerphort. Tá gach córas, uisce agus uile, ins na bailte agus ní bheadh aon díomailt airgid a gabháil le tógaint na dtithe. Ba bhreá leis na siopadóirí ins na bailte roimh-ráite breis airgid d'fháil uatha san atá ag obair ins na monarchain agus chuideodh sé leo an 2½ faoin gcéad do chur ar ceal. Ní saineolaí ar chúrsaí eacnamaíochta mé ach mholfainn don Aire dul chun cinn leis na tionscail agus teora réasúnta a chur le tógáil tithe ag an Aerphort.

Dhein an tAire tagairt do Chaisleán Bhun Ráithe agus na dinéir mheán aoise a bhíonn ar siúl ann. Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil ceangal ar bith idir na rudaí a bhíonn ar siúl i mBun Ráithe agus stair an Chláir. Na daoine a lonnaigh san áras sin trá, náimhde do chine Gael a bhfurmhór. Ba ro-bheag a meas ar stair ár sinnsir agus ní móide ár meas-na ortha. Maidir leis na cuairteoirí meán aoiseacha, tagaid go dtí Aerphort na Sionnainne; saightear isteach i mbus iad agus tiomáintear iad go dtí Mainistir Choinche. Tugtar blodh staire dhóibh ansin.

Ar aghaidh leo go hInis annsan agus thar n-ais go Bun Ráithe chun an dinnéar meán aoise bréagach do chaitheamh. Ní bheadh aon locht agam ar an rud seo go léir dá n-abródh an tAire gur "gimmick" a bhí ann chun airgead na n-amadán do thógáil agus déarfainn go mbainfeadh na h-amadáin an taitneamh céana as. Ba chóir, dar liomsa, moladh do na daoine sin cuairt a thabhairt ar Bhaile Uí Bheacháin, Corcra Rua go léir, siar go Coill Caoi agus Ceann Léime agus soir go Coill Dá Lua. Do chífidis ansan radharcanna áilne a sháródh go mór an méid a chíonn siad ar an dturas a leagtar amach dóibh.

Ní réitím in aon chor leis an Aire nuair a deireann sé go bhfuil beartaithe acu Folk Park a thógáil le h-ais an Chaisleáin. Dubhairt duine éigin ná gabhfadh an Folk Park agus an Tí Ósta a thóg Puncánach ró-mhaith lena chéile. Aontaím leis an dtuairim sin. Ba chóir ligint do lucht cuairte dul mórthimpeall an Chláir agus chífidis go leor tithe den chineál atá i gceist ag an Aire. D'fhéadfaidis tithe den chineál céana d'fheiscint i nGaillimh, i gCiarraí, i gCorcaigh agus in áiteacha eile ar fud na tíre agus ní chall don Aire airgead poiblí a chaitheamh ar an gcuma amaideach seo. Dá moltaí dhóibh dul mórthimpeall i measg na ndaoine thabharfadh sé deis dona siopadóirí ar fud na Mumhan ábhairín beag airgid a chnuasach.

Ba mhaith liom tagairt don iarracht a rinne an Teachta Sweetman ar an óráid a rinne a Cheannaire 20 éigin bliain ó shoin a leasú. Chuir sé i leith Fianna Fáil gur bhaineadar feidhm as cuid áirithe den óráid sin agus gur thugadar casadh bréagach dó. Is eagal liom go dtógfadh sé níos mó ná leasúcháin an Teachta chun na coiníní a ghlanadh as an dTuarascáil Oifigiuil Tá mé cinte go raibh cuid mhaith a Phartaí i bhfábhar tionscal sa tír ach go raibh na ceannairí go láidir i gcoinne, ní toisc gur theastaigh uatha na tionscail a chur ar ceal ach gur bhreá leo polasaí Fhianna Fáil a chur in ndísc.

Mr. A. Barry

It is a matter of considerable regret to me that the educational deficiency from which I suffer prevented me from enjoying what the last speaker said with considerable fluency. I must come into the debate on the spine-chilling note on which Deputy McQuillan finished. I think Deputy McQuillan finds things under the bed in a most impractical way. What we are trying to do in Shannon is to rescue an airport that has run into difficulties. This is remarkable and unusual and I hope it will be a successful project. I regard and always have regarded it as a very valiant attempt to save this Airport.

A great imponderable surrounds Shannon Airport. The passing of the piston engine seemed to indicate the passing of Shannon as an airport. The development of Aerlínte, and the transatlantic services and the success of these services is something that gratifies all of us but, like all silver clouds, it has a dark lining. The dark lining in this case is that Irish International Airlines creamed off all the business which might tempt the other airlines to use Shannon as an airport. To that extent, the success of Irish International Airlines was probably an all-over injury to Shannon. I am glad to note lately that there is a slight movement back by some of the great airlines, Sabena and one of the American companies, to touch down again at Shannon Airport.

That is not what we are discussing here this morning. This would seem to be a very expensive buttressing of Shannon but our efforts in that direction have always seemed to me to be the only possible and reasonable ones. In the four or five years of its history, we have brought an unusually diverse kind of activity to the area. We are seeking to build there a community where no community existed, to have work where no work existed, to build homes where no homes existed, to bring people where no people existed and to enable them to support themselves in the homes we have built for them. It is almost in the realm of fantasy but it may come off and it is the wish of every Deputy here that it will come off.

It is distressing to learn that the air freight services are not being used sufficiently by those who have been induced to come into production there. I hope that it is only a passing complaint. I should like the Minister to indicate what injury might be done to our efforts there if our efforts to enter EEC are successful. I have a reasonable knowledge of these developments. The factories seem to be competent; the housing developments are extremely attractive; and if there is a slight air of artificiality about the whole place, we cannot complain because it could not be done in any other way. The original proposals were almost incredible. Those who initiated them took on a formidable task and I want to pay tribute to Mr. O'Regan and his colleagues for the efforts they are making to make this an important centre of this State. We hope they will succeed because the Irish people have made a very great investment there.

I have no brief for the criticism that has been thrown at Bunratty Castle. The restoration work there has been done with good taste and the activities carried on there, the nightly banquetes, are very satisfactory and attractive. It is a pity that more Irish people do not go to these banquets and see what happens there. Telefís Éireann could do worse than spend an hour there and let the Irish people see how pleasant it is. In contrast with the Shannon Shamrock hotel nearby, Bunratty Castle is most attractive. This is one of the things that we do quite well in Ireland. I do not know who is behind the functions in Bunratty but it must be very hard work to run them and it is extremely well done and done in the utmost good taste.

I think most of us realise that the real danger to Shannon and to all these developments lies in the struggle to make Dublin the major transatlantic terminus. If these proposals succeed, Shannon will die. We must all be aware of what is at stake in resisting the proposal. All our investments in Shannon will be lost if that campaign is successful. Dublin, as a city, will eat much more into the entire economy of this country and will add to the great demographic imbalance we have. I wish this project every success and I hope sarcasm and cynicism will not be permitted to kill the very great effort being made there.

We should make an effort to maintain the Airport in immaculate condition and good appearance. Frequently, the passenger from America leaves from the airport in Boston. It is a pretty tawdry and run-down airport itself. All of us would like to see travellers who get on the plane in Boston arrive at an airport which reflects a good standard.

On a visit to America recently, I found advertising is conducted by Board Fáilte, the Shannon Free Airport Development Company and Aer Lingus. I think that is probably a wasteful diversity of our activities in public relations there. It is desirable that all advertising to the American public in regard to Ireland, Aer Lingus, Shannon Airport and so on should be from the one source and under the one direction. That would provide an attractive economy and prevent expensive duplication in the expenditure of moneys.

I want to repeat that the impact of Shannon as a radiating influence of employment and tourism in the west and south-west is very important. We must make sure that this hidden struggle we are all aware of to make Dublin the international terminus does not succeed. If it does, it will deal a death-blow to the hopes of the south and south-west and of this great Airport. We must pay tribute to the Government for apparently resisting this matter so long. I want to assure them they will have the support of the whole of this House and all the people of the country, apart from some people in Dublin—probably some American airlines—if they continue to resist this pressure.

Mr. T. O'Donnell

I am pleased at the way in which this debate has been approached and I am particularly gratified at the absence of any political controversy regarding the future of Shannon and its 2,000 employees. I have nothing very much to criticise in what the Minister said, but I am disappointed he did not give a more general review of the present position of the Airport as a passenger terminal and did not try to forecast future trends. I realise it is very difficult, as the Minister pointed out in reply to a question from me, to forecast passenger movement. As a result of this Bill, and particularly of the discussion which has taken place, I feel that, on the whole, the future of Shannon is quite bright. I welcome that. I am very interested in all the activities at the Airport. Irrespective of any political controversy that may have raged in the past regarding Shannon, I am wholeheartedly behind the Shannon Development Company in their efforts to maintain Shannon and to develop the Industrial Estate and tourism.

One of the main sections of the Bill deals with housing for the workers at Shannon. The Minister pointed out that Shannon is in an isolated position. There is no existing community there. Therefore, if we want to attract workers and ensure a future labour pool for the industries set up, it is necessary to provide housing. Speaking on the Minister's Estimate last November, I went into this matter of the recruitment of workers. A stage has now been reached when workers have to travel distances of up to 40 miles per day to and from their work at the Airport. The provision of housing is not alone desirable but absolutely essential for the future of the Industrial Estate.

One of the disappointing features of the Industrial Estate is that it has not succeeded as well as we would like it to succeed in generating air freight traffic through the Airport. The Minister informed me in the House six months ago that the Industrial Estate generated only one-third of the total air freight through the Airport. I am glad to see there has been an improvement in that position today and that the figure has now gone up to 50 per cent. If the various industries at Shannon can provide an increased amount of air freight traffic through the Airport, the future of Shannon is assured.

I realise that the big problem regarding air freight is the matter of costs. It is true, as Deputy McQuillan said, that some of the industries at Shannon are utilising land and sea transport. It would not be possible for the Government or the Shannon Development Company to insist on any industry utilising one form of transport rather than another. Is it possible, however, that an effort might be made to attract a particular type of industry. Some of the factories in Shannon are producing goods ideally suited to air transport. The most recent one was the Shannon diamond factory where small units, of high value, ideally suited to air freight, are produced. Other industries make products of a bulky nature which would not be so suitable. Is it possible that a special effort might be made to attract industries whose products are suited to air freight. I do not say that in any critical manner but it is an idea that has been agitating my mind for some time.

I feel that promotion of tourism is of very great importance to the future of Shannon. I am glad the Shannon Development Company has been, for the past year or so, making an all-out effort to promote tourism in the Shannon area. Last year, speaking on the Estimate for Transport and Power, I suggested that perhaps a more co-ordinated effort might be made towards the development of tourism not merely in the Shannon area but on a regional basis covering Galway, Clare, Limerick, North Kerry, North Cork and North Tipperary. In the past month or so, a regional tourist development association has been formed in Limerick but I should like to see greater co-operation between the SDC and the regional association in Limerick.

I agree that it is vitally essential that local co-operation should be forthcoming for tourist promotion. I am fully conscious of the value of local effort, particularly in regard to the development of angling which has a great potential in Counties Limerick and Clare, but I wonder if it would be possible that some special assistance might be given to the Limerick Regional Development Association. We have not much experience in tourism promotion. We have good intentions and there is a spirit of co-operation there but we need assistance in regard to technical know-how and in the matter of getting various small local groups in Limerick and Clare and the SDC co-ordinated into one central authority.

Board Fáilte might be able to make a special officer available for 12 months or so to direct the work of the association. Some specialist advice is available, I feel sure, but it is not sufficient to send an official from Bord Fáilte to the monthly meetings. We should have for, possibly, 12 months at least, a well-qualified officer to show us how to get things done and who, at the end of the period, would possibly depart in the knowledge that we would then know how to go ahead ourselves. We are pretty well equipped with first-class hotel accommodation in the Limerick area but there is a considerable potential for another type of tourism. I am particularly keen on the angling potential and I am glad to say that plans are already being formulated to promote package angling holidays through Shannon Airport. Everything that can be done to promote tourism not only in the Shannon area—which to us means the area from Ennis into Limerick, around by the Airport and Bunratty—but also in the whole region comprising Limerick, Clare and Galway, can help to promote passenger traffic through the Airport.

I did not like Deputy McQuillan's speech. At first, I was inclined to take him seriously but as he went on, I thought there was no cause to worry about it. In conclusion, I think for the first time since I came to this House I am happy in mind about the future of Shannon. I have a tremendous admiration for the manner in which the officers of the SDC have tackled the problem and it was also very encouraging to find that this debate was not spoiled by any political controversy. The workers at Shannon can be assured that both sides of the House are sincere in their efforts to ensure the future of Shannon and particularly the future livelihood of the 2,000 workers. I trust this Bill will assist the SDC and that we can look forward to greater things in the future.

Mr. Childers

I thank the House for the very courteous way they have received the Bill and for their constructive criticism and comment. I really should apologise for the late coming of this measure which was due to a number of circumstances over some of which I had no control. I assure Deputy Sweetman that very great care was taken in the examination of the Shannon project particularly because of its novelty, and the whole question of deciding the housing policy and the finance connected with it and all other policy matters was not rushed. The advice of intelligent people was sought and considered at a number of different levels and that is one of the reasons why the Bill has come here rather late. Great care was taken in examining this proposal and the whole future of Shannon Airport and the Industrial Estate because it is something entirely new in the history of this country.

I think I need not deal with what Deputy McQuillan said. Were I to agree with him, I would shoot myself tomorrow morning and have done with it and save a lot of debate in this House.

Mr. Sweetman

Without any comment on the rights and wrongs of that, will the Minister save us a lot of trouble by doing it for other reasons?

Mr. Childers

The Deputy might argue on that and, equally, I might ask other people to dispose of themselves likewise.

Mr. A. Barry

Do not spoil the peaceful air of the House this morning.

Mr. Childers

The companies operating at Shannon are world famous and we can have confidence in the strong foundation of industry being built up there. One of the interesting features of Shannon is that world famous companies which made profits for many years have chosen to come to the industrial estate.

Deputy Sweetman asked me to elaborate again the nature of the financial proposals. The factories in Shannon are being financed out of the share capital of the company. The Minister for Finance is the shareholder and the only way he can get a return on the capital is by way of dividend. The company calculates the economic rent covering interest, a sum to recover capital and running expenses. The full economic rents are not charged but in a few years nearly the full rent will be charged.

At the moment on this basis of calculation the factories are providing 78 per cent and it is hoped that in the course of years the arrangements will provide that about 96 per cent of the full economic rent will be available. What the Minister for Finance would do later on when these rents have started accruing is a different matter. The position is that it is share capital and that any rents received could be paid as dividends but at the moment they are being ploughed back into the general operation of the factory administration.

Then there is a sum paid for administration, for promotion, for publicity, for general running expenses and for grants to factories. Finally, the housing capital is made available in exactly the same way as it is to housing authorities. There is the same method of repayment but the repayment is made after due allowance for the normal grant that would be made available under the Housing Acts for the houses and flats built, and after a sum has been voted from my Department in respect of subsidies made available to secure rents that are reasonable. That, I think, is a full description of how the repayable advances operate. They are worked in exactly the same way as in connection with the Housing Acts, over the same period with the same rate of interest.

Deputy Sweetman posed the question that many people quite reasonably pose about the housing policy. The housing policy has been very carefully examined. Of the workers at Shannon, some prefer Limerick, some prefer to live in Ennis, some come from the surrounding countryside, some migrate from other parts of Ireland, and a few have come from abroad, workers with specialised knowledge. However, we now have enough experience to know, from those who manage the factories and as a result of the knowledge of the officers at the Shannon Free Airport Development Company, that we must provide a certain number of houses. There are a certain number of people who want to live at the airport, to enjoy the community services there and live close to their work. All we can do is to ensure we do not overbuild or underbuild.

The supply of labour in the area can be predicted to a certain extent from the knowledge of the numbers who are leaving school and so forth. It cannot be predicted exactly because, for example, in the last four years in Ennis they have been progressing industrially and we hope Limerick will now progress industrially, so that the amount of labour which will be drawn into the Airport from outside will be changing in the upward direction in the future. Deputy Sweetman expressed the hope that the Folk Park would not be placed in such a position that it would appear to be surrounding the adjacent hotel. The cottages will be erected on a special piece of land in association with Bunratty Castle and I think the House will be satisfied with the result.

Mr. Sweetman

Which side of the river?

Mr. Childers

I am not quite sure which side of the river. That has to be planned. The main thing is to make the general arrangements and obtain financial sanction. I should state here in contradiction of Deputy McQuillan that the wages paid at Shannon are at least trade union wages and in many cases much higher. As Deputies could see for themselves when they inspected the factories, the working conditions are very satisfactory.

The observation was made that a number of people who live in the countryside rather far away from Shannon find the travelling expenses very heavy, as they live beyond the point from which subsidies are paid by the factory managers for bus travel. We hope to construct some hostels for girls who are mainly concerned in this complaint, and that will relieve the position.

In regard to air freight, 50 per cent. of the goods in connection with the Industrial Estate are air freighted. The Shannon Free Airport Development Company are now more selective even than before in choosing industries. While they hope a considerable volume of air freight will emerge, they cannot impose an absolute condition that all the raw materials coming into the factory and all the finished goods going out will be air freighted but at least the Shannon Free Airport Development Company have reached the point where an element of selectivity can be introduced into their decisions whether to accept a proposal from a factory for space or not. However, it would be impossible to make this a 100 per cent operation. The reason for an adverse trend in air freight arrangements which was noticed by Deputies recently was the beginning of containerisation by land which to some degree is a challenge from the surface carriers to the air carriers. The air carriers will have to meet that later on by arranging more economic operation, and we cannot be too dissatisfied with the position. It is a fact that half of the freight from Shannon Airport comes from the Industrial Estate, that of the goods produced at the Shannon Industrial Estate one-half is air freight. That is not an unfavourable position although naturally we would like to see it improved.

Deputy A. Barry made a very helpful speech, for which I thank him. As regards his question about the EEC, it would be impossible to predict what would happen to the Shannon Industrial Estate if we joined the EEC. From all the reports I received from the company, however, and from talking with industrialists down there, I can say they are quite confident that it will provide opportunities and a challenge, and that as long as goods are efficiently produced at Shannon and a high rate of productivity can be maintained, there will be a great future for Shannon if we join the Common Market. Whether under the new circumstances we would be allowed to offer grants or taxation remission to new firms coming in no one can predict. In the case of some members of the Common Market, they were allowed to continue for a period industrial grants and taxation incentives—I think in the case of Italy. It would be impossible for me to state what the result would be in our case. That would be a matter for negotiation but I am sure the existing industries, if anything, would be able to benefit from the Common Market position.

Questions were asked about the nature of the air service at Shannon. It would not be wise for Shannon to be the terminal position for Aerlínte. I do not think it would gain us anything in the long run and I would not propose to ask them to take that decision or to make that change. The number of transatlantic services operating to Shannon this Summer is not unsatisfactory and part of the job of Bord Fáilte, the Free Airport Development Company, and such regional associations as, I hope, will grow in the area, is to convince Americans that Shannon is a natural centre for the scenic, tourist and fishing facilities in the West of Ireland. I hope they will succeed in convincing Americans that this is the natural airport at which they should disembark for all these facilities.

That will be a very big job. Some success has been achieved and I think the best way of tackling the problem is by making Americans, in particular, feel that Shannon is a very natural centre at which to disembark for the tourist areas of the country.

Deputy O'Donnell asked whether some help could be given to the new Limerick tourist association. The answer is that Bord Fáilte will give technical and co-ordinating advice. If a travel promotion officer is appointed, Bord Fáilte will pay, at least initially, part of his salary. That has been found profitable at Galway where the first local promotion officer was appointed. The same thing would apply to any regional associations, whether combined as between counties and areas, or in relation to one particular area.

Mr. A. Barry

I should like the Minister to answer my complaint about advertising emanating from three different centres.

Mr. Childers

There is a co-ordinating committee, which meets regularly, between Bord Fáilte, Shannon Free Airport Development Company and the Irish airlines. So far as I know, they are supposed to prevent overlapping or wasteful advertising, repetition of matter, or campaigns that do not thoroughly co-ordinate with each other. If Deputy Barry has any examples of what would appear to be faulty co-ordination because of what he has seen in American papers——

Mr. A. Barry

I saw in the American press where advertisers are requesting that demands for information should be sent to two or three different addresses in New York. I think that is silly.

Mr. Childers

Advertisers in the papers give three separate addresses?

Mr. A. Barry

Yes.

Mr. Childers

I shall make a note of that to see if it is something that could be avoided. Deputy Sweetman asked for a statement of the total of all running expenses of the company, including grants to industrialists. The grand total of expenses up to 30th June, 1963, was £555,000. That comprises administration expenses, salaries and wages, travelling, postage, rent and rates, repairs and renewals, interest on repayable advances, depreciation, boiler house operation, lighting, heating, power, and promotion expenses. Promotion expenses—it is an interesting figure—amounted to £228,000 out of the total of £555,000.

Mr. Sweetman

What on earth is covered in promotional expenses?

Mr. Childers

Advertising, conducting travel agencies and getting literature on to planes crossing the Atlantic to Shannon, and so forth.

Question put and agreed to.