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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Nov 1963

Vol. 205 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Vote 29—Local Government (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
"That the Supplementary Estimate be referred back for reconsideration"—(Deputy Jones).

When the debate was adjourned last night, I was making a few brief remarks on the road programme.We all note with satisfaction the Minister's intention of carrying out a further survey of the flow of traffic with the intention of promoting a comprehensive road programme. There is no doubt that to date, and especially during the Minister's period of office, the road programme has progressed considerably. We can now say that the standard of our roads has been raised in all parts of the country. That trend is to be welcomed and it is only in conformity with the increased flow of traffic on the roads. If cars continue to multiply in the next decade as in the past decade, then we shall need this imaginative road programme.

I was also referring to housing when the debate adjourned. Seeing that we have the very important Estimate for the Department of Local Government to consider and two motions amounting to censure on the Dublin Corporation, it might be no harm if I dealt briefly with the housing problem. There, again, I think the Minister can show a good record. Dublin Corporation have been the subject of criticism for delays in dealing with the housing problem in the city but there is something to be said for the rate of building that is going on. Figures indicate that without the aid of industrialised building methods used elsewhere, Dublin Corporation are continuing to pursue a steady rate of building.

I was glad to note that the Minister is in favour of inviting consultants and others engaged in building to submit plans, new methods and new techniques to help out bodies such as Dublin Corporation, techniques which are used in other countries. Those methods, if adopted, will surely mean an increased rate in the building of blocks of flats. Concomitant with that, there will be a general increase in the rate of building. We all know that the increased prosperity in this country is bringing visible changes in all things and will continue to do so. That fact is apparent in the new office buildings, the new hotels, the new schools and other new commercial buildings that are going up.

The rate of development in this direction is on the increase and it is likely that we shall see a much more expanded housing drive in the next decade. Therefore, the Planning and Development Act under which house building in every city and town in the country will be supervised is to be welcomed. However our towns and cities may grow in the future, much will depend on the energy, initiative and ability of our young engineers and architects. It would be fair to say that future generations will judge us on the standards laid down in the coming two or three years.

Examining this aspect of the matter, we may remember that some of the buildings started eight or ten years back were subject to some criticism at that time. Some were declared to be freakish and out of harmony with their surroundings. It is almost certain that this type of tall building will be the choice of architects and engineers in the future. Yet this type of building was decried when introduced in this city. I suppose that arose from the fact that up to the middle of this century, we had no experience or tradition here of erecting tall buildings. Nevertheless, this type of design is the coming one and the trend has already started in Dublin. Whether we like it or not, it is likely to continue, not merely in Dublin but in our provincial towns and cities. It is coming in with the Common Market idea and, for good or ill, it will be a feature of future buildings.

I said last night that the Georgian squares of Dublin are passing into history. I also said it was rather late now to start an argument on the merits or demerits of the Georgian design. In present circumstances, that would be of no assistance in our drive to secure better housing standards. The time to talk about the Georgian design was 40 or 50 years ago when those houses first started to fall into decay. We know from experience of our limited resources that those houses could not be restored except at public expense. We should keep in step with the times and not merely encourage our young architects but also our young engineers, draughtsmen and designers. We should lend them a helping hand in the task of planning the future housing of the country.

The House should welcome the Minister's idea of inviting outside building promoters to submit proposals for building which can be fitted into the general plan of our housing campaign. It may help to bring something new here, to lower the cost of houses and, in addition, to speed up the provision of accommodation for people who need it. The increase of £35,000 in the estimate of contributions towards local housing loan charges, together with the £100,000 towards loan charges of sanitary authorities, has made possible a good rate of development in the provision of better water supplies and sewerage facilities. Those increases, coupled with the £250,000 for private housing, clearly indicate that the Government have taken an active interest in this matter by devoting £2,750,000 to the housing campaign.

I noted that the Minister said in his opening statement that most local authorities have taken an active part in promoting the repair and replacement of houses by paying supplementary grants. He also said that some urban authorities were slow and did not display the same enthusiasm in adopting the scheme of supplementary grants. That may arise from the fact that some urban authorities fear putting what they term a burden on the rates. But in the long run, it would be better that urban councils should adopt the supplementary grants scheme. As the Minister pointed out, if we tackle this matter in determined fashion, private housebuilding should balance out public effort. The two should go hand in hand. In the long run, the fact that urban councils encourage private building might save them from having to undertake a larger scheme of public housebuilding. Urban councils should not therefore be backward in adopting the supplementary grants scheme.

The question of sites was referred to in the course of the debate. The Minister encouraged local authorities to try to get them to purchase sites for houses around the country towns. It is not always easy for urban authorities to procure suitable land. If they can procure suitable land, it is not always easy for them to arrange the price. We all know that good land surrounding a provincial town is at present making a fairly high price. Here also the question of going up or out present itself. Is it not time that some of the bigger local authorities at least considered building blocks of flats rather than spreading out sometimes in all ill-ordered fashion around country towns? That is why one can welcome the Minister's intention to promote industrial methods in building because those methods might be an aid in this matter.

Finally, I was glad that the Minister referred to the rate of vesting of houses by local authorities. At present some county managers are drawing up schemes for the sale of local authority houses to the tenants. It might be well if the managers could embody in those schemes terms which would make the purchase as attractive as possible to the tenants. In the past I have known of schemes rejected by tenants on the grounds of cost. It may well be that costs in general are great but I make a plea to the Minister to have the county managers consider the problem seriously because it is a rather baffling one at present for public representatives.

The fact that tenants are slow to purchase sometimes means that the houses are not kept in the state of repair in which they should be kept. We know from experience that it is not always possible for local authorities to keep those houses in first-class repair. Then, when the tenant considers the matter, he often decides to remain as a weekly tenant and that is bad from our point of view. We subscribe to private enterprise and private ownership and in that regard I suggest the Minister should give every possible encouragement to local authorities and county managers and others responsible for drawing up these schemes to make them as attractive as possible so that we shall see an end to this difficulty in our time.

The Minister in introducing his Estimate, like all Ministers who have made speeches lately, was very high-sounding but I find his speech studded with inaccuracies and the people will not accept a lot of what has been said.

On several occasions here, I referred to the need for co-ordination between different services, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the ESB, Bord Fáilte and so on. These bodies should co-ordinate in order to avoid having the unnecessary poles that we see giving directions on the streets. It is time the Minister gave a lead in attempting to eliminate that forest of unnecessary poles. Why not put some of the signs on the ESB poles? It is a regrettable situation when you just cannot walk between these poles. We talk of tidy towns; let us have a lead from the top in tidying up unnecessary posts and poles.

We have a fairly high standard of fire brigades and I think the insurance companies that are drawing big and increasing premiums should do something further to raise that standard by presenting prizes for competition between different units. These companies seem to have a free hand because, when the Minister for Finance floats a loan, these are the people who subscribe to it and the Minister is afraid to tread on their corns. I take it the country is in the hollow of their hands and the Minister is not prepared to put pressure on them.

Recently, the Minister at the Municipal Authorities' Conference in Skibbereen, exhorted delegates to complete water schemes in the different towns. He said about three or four per cent were outstanding. I should like the Minister to search among the papers on his desk and see if he could find a request—if it is not already pigeon-holed—from Galway Corporation to put at least two of their schemes through. I refer especially to the Rahoon and Ballyfoyle schemes, which have much merit because they would service a dairying area and it is in the interests of health and hygiene that these people should have water. If the Minister is sincere, I ask him to sanction these schemes.

In regard to delay in sanctioning schemes, the Minister should cut much of the red tape and expedite house building applications that are lying on his desk. There is great suspicion about the delay, that it may be designed to bring the buildings under the 2½ per cent turnover tax. That is most unfair to those people who had their applications in for months.

The Minister has been sticking his chest out speaking about the rate of housebuilding throughout the country. I do not find myself in agreement with the Minister as far as Galway is concerned, either as a member of Galway Corporation or Galway County Council. My colleague on the opposite benches will bear me out when I say we are finding it increasingly difficult to get contractors to accept a contract for the building of single houses.

The Minister should interest himself in finding out where the bottleneck is. It is not enough consolation for applicants for houses to proclaim that everything in the garden is lovely. I refute the Minister's claim in relation to the big number of houses built as far as Galway is concerned. I have here a letter from Galway Corporation giving statistics of house building. From 3rd March, 1956, to 1958, we built 263 houses. That was the famous period of inter-Party Government about which we hear so much. The Minister might say that houses in 1958 were built in the Fianna Fáil period of Government. I will not let the Minister get away with that because the foundations had been laid a year before and 1958 was merely a continuation of the schemes started by the inter-Party Government. From 1959 to 1963—this is the period the Minister has been boasting about—the figures show a big change; in 1959, nil; in 1960, nil; in 1961, 20 houses; in 1962, nil; in 1963, 20 houses. These figures show some of the inaccuracies in the Minister's opening statement.

Since Fianna Fáil came into Government in 1959, we have a grand total of 40 houses built in the city of Galway. During the period of inter-Party Government we had 263 houses built. Is that what the Minister is boasting about? The Minister is fast becoming known as the Minister for Caravans and Prefabs. It is sad to see young married couples in my town, the husband living at home with his own people, and the wife living at home with her people. We boast of being a Christian country: "Whom God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." I could give many instances and, if Deputy Geoghegan likes to come into Galway, I will open his eyes. He will not have the smile on his face then that is there now. It is poor consolation to these people to hear the Minister's boasts. Who is the Minister trying to fool?

A matter which shocks the public conscience is the increasing number of road deaths. The public cry aloud for stronger measures. It is regrettable that that increase should follow on the enactment of a new Road Traffic Act. Something more will obviously have to be done. A number of these accidents occur at night. Many of them may be caused by fatigued drivers dozing at the wheel momentarily, but I have a grave suspicion that a great number of them occur after closing hours. An odd check as to fitness would be no harm. Possibly this is a matter for the Department of Justice.

It is a matter for another Minister.

I agree. I should like to see a practice in some parts of the country becoming more widespread. I refer to encouraging children to walk on the side of the road facing traffic. More should be done to encourage this practice. The teachers could help in the schools.

Use should be made of radio, television, and every other means to instil into children a greater need for a civic spirit. Something will have to be done in view of the number of malicious injury claims. I do not suggest that it is children who are solely responsible. Hooligans cause a great deal of it. If we do not make a start the hooligans will be completely out of hand. It is an odd thing that we never hear of any of them being caught. Possibly they make sure they will not be caught. It is a comment that a great many of our insurance companies are getting away with murder.

Surely the Minister has no control over insurance companies?

If you will bear with me——

I have borne with the Deputy on that particular point and I do not think he should proceed.

I am referring to malicious injury claims. The figure is a formidable one. The ratepayers have to pay for the damage. If property is insured, I do not see why the ratepayers should be called on. As I have said, these companies have got the country in the hollow of their hands.

Good work has been done in the matter of clearing derelict sites through the grants now available. Much still remains to be done and in this connection I would ask the Minister to have a look at the vicinities of railways and see if they could not be improved. They constitute a serious eyesore at the moment. While still on the problem of derelict sites, I would draw the Minister's attention to the many badly-kept graveyards throughout the country. I will probably be told these are the responsibility of the families who have people buried there, but there are many graveyards in respect of which the families who would normally be responsible for maintenance have died out. Many of them are in a disgraceful condition and we should feel a great sense of shame.

Another matter of grave national importance is the level of our preparedness for emergencies. I would refer particularly to the situation in Wicklow last year. God grant we never see the like again, but the Department, and the Government as a whole, fell down completely there. It was Wicklow yesterday; it could be Cork, Galway, Donegal tomorrow. In view of his great failure in respect of Wicklow, I now ask the Minister what preparations he has made to deal with such emergencies in future, whether they be storms, floods or snow.

I had the pleasure of being one of those who forced the Minister into giving storm damage grants. I had the privilege of being Mayor of Galway and I invited officials of his Department to come to the city when we were devastated by hurricane Debbie. The officials were so impressed by the damage there that shortly after they went back, the storm damage grants were introduced. Before I leave this subject, I would again ask the Minister to let the House know what steps he proposes to take in the event, God forbid, of another emergency like that in Wicklow. It is all very well to sit back now and sing that there is sunshine on the Wicklow hills but the Minister should see to it that emergency relief of that sort is not left to the meagre financial resources of the Red Cross and other such societies who proved in Wicklow that they were unable to face up to the situation.As we say in the west: "Ní hé lá na gaoithe lá na scolb."

I should like now to turn to the Department's policy on road repairs. One can see in the midlands miles of road torn up and left there for months. Apparently the engineers bite off more than they can chew, showing complete disregard for the people who must pay in the long run. In our programme of road repairs, we should show more consideration for pedestrians. We proceed to build autobahns but forget all about the provision of footpaths for pedestrians. In all our road planning, we should ensure that there are footpaths laid down for two or three miles on all sides of our towns. At the moment pedestrians are being driven up the walls by our road hogs.

In the matter of road improvements, the question of widening is giving some trouble at the moment. Much grand work has been done in this respect but many of our main roadsides are nothing but parking grounds for tinkers in the vicinity of our towns, an encouragement to these people to come in there and pester us. Something should be done to fence these roadside areas which at the moment are jumping off grounds for these ne'er-do-wells. I am interested to know what the Miniister proposes to do in the matter of relief of rates consequent on the turnover tax.

We cannot have another discussion on the turnover tax.

Why not? Local authorities will be demanding increased rates to pay for the increased maintenance costs in hospitals, county homes and other local institutions and I submit the Minister should enlighten us as to what he proposes to do to relieve the overburdened ratepayers. Part of the Fine Gael policy is to reduce the burden of rates by the reorganisation of health services, by giving local authorities wider discretion in the matter of road grants, by providing grants for the repair of roads which would become the responsibility of the local authorities. Fine Gael policy also is to provide exemption from rates for seven years where there are increases in rateable valuation consequent on the improvement of premises. The Minister and his Party have been copying a lot of Fine Gael policy and if he is prepared to adopt these few little points from Fine Gael, we shall not object. Of course, there is no guarantee the Minister will be there long enough to do it. The people will not support a Government who are not prepared to vote on an issue or are not prepared even to let the people vote on an issue, as we have seen here tonight.

I would appeal to the Minister to be big enough to reintroduce the Local Authorities (Works) Act. The Minister has a request from the Galway County Council in this regard and I do not have to remind him that the majority of that council are members of his Party. I take that as a tribute to the inter-Party Government's first having introduced this Act, an Act that did a lot for the improvement of land and an Act that gave power to the local councils, power they have not got at the moment which possibly is the reason why the Department removed this legislation. There is too much autocracy in this country. It is about time that some of these powers were passed back to the people, to the elected representatives, who are not like the Independent representatives who think they have all the power in this House.

I wonder, when the Minister was framing his Estimate for this year, if he took into consideration in regard to housing the extra charges that will be imposed by the Budget proposals brought in by this Government. It is reasonable to assume that the building of a house will cost a considerable amount more than it has heretofore cost and that corporations and other public bodies who are largely responsible for housing will find themselves faced with excessive obligations in respect of corporation profits tax. Was there any preparation for that eventually in the framing of this Estimate? If not, will we be faced with a situation with which we have been faced annually in relation to practically every Estimate introduced by this Government? That information would be helpful to the House in view of the somewhat uncertain situation that prevails in regard to housing and the tremendous demand that exists for houses, not only in the city of Dublin, as has been evidenced by the speeches by Deputies who represent the regions around Dublin, but throughout the country as a whole. There must be a tremendous building drive and, as against that, there will be a tremendous extra charge thrown back on the people who are to live in the houses.

Has the Minister any plan to deal with that situation, or, like everything else, is it one of those glorious paper schemes, the difficulties and troubles in regard to which do not appear until it is sought to make the schemes effective?I estimate that a house which is built as from 1st November last will be subject to this percentage charge on all building material. It will also be subject to corporation profits tax and to increased charges which will arise from the demands which it is recognised will come from all manual workers, in fact, from all types of workers, throughout the country, and which in turn will result in increased costs of administration for local authorities in respect of engineers, administrative staff, and so on.

It is very difficult to estimate even roughly what these extra charges will be but I could not find anything in the Minister's address when introducing this Estimate to show that that matter had been given even a passing survey by him and those who advise him in the Department. Perhaps when he is replying at the end of this debate, which has extended over a considerable period, he will intimate to the House what the plans are for the future and also if he is going to safeguard those who are already in corporation houses against an increase in rent or if they are to pay this extra charge, not once but possibly three or four times over.

Whatever way it may be glossed over, Deputies are not offering their opinions here for nothing and it is obvious from the speeches made from every side of the House that there is a backlog in housing. It is also obvious that the surveys the Minister has made in regard to the requirements here do not in any way meet the current situation. I recently asked the Minister a question in relation to housing problems in my constituency and the reply I received was that the survey which had been made dealt only with unfit and unsound houses and did not relate to the increased demand for houses.

It must be recognised—and this position obtains in every country in the world—there is a flight from the land. There are not as many people requiring to live in the rural areas and there are not as many people employed on the land. That situation is not peculiar to this country. Therefore, there must be a movement to the towns and a movement towards industrial development and that means more houses. When a town in any part of Ireland has an opportunity of having a factory established, the first question that is always asked is: "Have you the housing accommodation available? Have you any plans for housing accommodation?"

I want to put it to the Minister that if he were the most active Minister in the world, if he were the most enthusiastic Minister for Local Government this State has ever had, under the present administration, under the present schemes and the present plans laid before this House, there is not the slightest chance of overtaking the housing problem in the foreseeable future. As regards Dublin alone, there has been evidence here in the speeches made by Dublin Deputies that there is a tremendous backlog in housing, a tremendous increase in the demand for houses.

Occasionally I get letters from people who originally came from my own county and who are living in Dublin. Unless they have a five-years' residential qualification and unless they have a family of at least four children, they have no chance whatever of getting a house in Dublin. That may well be for the purpose of protecting those who live in Dublin but it shows an appalling state of affairs. It shows that the housing situation in this city is in chaos.

It puzzles me, therefore, when people buy houses here in the city and wish to construct them into flats, that they come up against the town planning section of the Dublin Corporation who very often deny them the right to convert the houses. Again I say I am a country Deputy but there are people from my own county who come to live in Dublin and who write to me in this regard. I recently had a case of a person, a widow, who bought a house with the idea of converting it into flats for the purpose of getting some remuneration in return. She was promptly told by the town planning authority that she could not do that. The case was then appealed to the Minister. There was some urgency about the matter as this lady did not want to be held up for two or three months.

I made representations to the Department and I discovered that there were 600 appeals on the same question sitting on the Minister's table. I do not say that the Minister is holding these up—I gather they reached him only quite recently—but the point I want to make is that if there is a shortage of houses in Dublin, what is the sense in preventing people converting houses into flats? What is the point of the Town Planning Committee—whoever they are; I gather they are officials of the Dublin Corporation—denying these people the right to turn houses into flats when they are at least helping to offset this very serious situation which exists in Dublin? I call it blatant bureaucracy. It is not getting anybody anywhere.

I hope the Minister will give favourable hearing to these appeals. Only the other day, I heard of a case of a woman in Dublin who converted a house into flats and every one of those flats was let to tenants or potential tenants and then the Town Planning Committee said: "You cannot do that." I do not know what the relations are between the officials of the Corporation and the officials in the Custom House but I hope the people in the Custom House will give a sympathetic hearing to such people and enable them to convert, if they so wish, houses into flats so that people will have the opportunity of getting accommodation with their own kitchens rather than being dumped into houses with three or four other families. I should have thought that anyone who is contributing in any way towards the housing problem in Dublin would have received the most sympathetic consideration.

The main trouble in this apparently lies with the officials of Dublin Corporation. I hope the Minister will take those 600 applications, if he has not already done so, and deal with them expeditiously. As far as I know, the case I had was a reasonable one and as far as I know, the others are. We also have in my county a Town and Planning Committee and it appears that it is necessary to get the permission of the local authority to do anything now. I know of cases where people have been waiting for a considerable time to reconstruct their houses. Something which perhaps is not always as evident to officials as it is to elected representatives is that it is difficult to get contractors. It is also very often difficult to get a scheme— a private enterprise scheme, if you like—started. When you have made arrangements to get it started, it is a bit hard if you are held up by officials for a considerable period. If your scheme is rejected by the officials, your redress is to appeal to the Minister.

Our problems in Wexford do not appear to be any different from those elsewhere. In four towns in my constituency, they are waiting for houses. Every time a house becomes vacant, there are at least 12 to 15 applications for it. We have a housing scheme in Gorey which has been "simmering" for about 15 or 16 months. I gather that the delay is nearly over and that it will be started eventually but it has been a source of disappointment to everyone concerned that it could not be commenced this summer. That may not have been the fault of the Department; perhaps the local authority were somewhat slow in sending up the plans. We also have a housing scheme in Enniscorthy, where there is a big demand for houses, and in New Ross and in Wexford.

I wonder would it be possible for the Minister to appoint somebody in his office to act as a liaison officer with the local authorities so that when these schemes come up from the local authorities, they may be dealt with expeditiously? It often happens that they are sent to Dublin and may be in the office from three to six months before being sent back. All the blame may not be attributable to the Department.It often happens that the Department send back queries to the local authority and the local authority takes a considerable time to reply and then the Department have to reply again. Would it not be possible to set up a small section to deal with relations between local authorities and the Department and if necessary, send an official, an engineer, from the Department to discuss the matter with the body concerned? By doing that, months of delay could be swept away. It should not be very difficult to send a man from the Department to the local authority to discuss these matters.

Although I am not a member of the local authority, I get many requests to expedite the building of labourers' cottages. The plain fact is that there has been no building of labourers' cottages in Wexford for the past few years. Schemes have been sanctioned and have recommenced again but in nearly all cases, it is almost impossible to get contractors. In the few years in which the hiatus in building existed, these people went to England. If a statement could be made that it was definitely intended to carry on with public housing—which obviously all sides of the House and all shades of political opinion are agreed on—in continuity for four or five years, it is likely that many of the contractors who have emigrated would return and we might not be faced again with the situation we are faced with now.

That brings me to the question of further expediting housing. Is it not possible—I think I am pushing an open door here—to turn over to a prefabricated design? Recently I was reading a German newspaper and I saw a photograph of the Minister discussing prefabrication in southern Germany. There have been great advances in prefabricated designs in most continental countries, where hospitals, schools and houses are being built to such designs. The modern prefabricated building is entirely different from the type of prefabricated house we saw in England in the bombed areas and in other places. It is a modern, up-to-date house with every possible contrivance.I gather they are being modernised and brought up-to-date so that now these houses are almost the same price as ordinary brick and mortar houses.

I am further informed by those who are supposed to know something about it that these houses in the not too distant future will be even cheaper than the existing type of houses being built here. As the Minister has not disclosed it to the House, I do not know whether we are to have a prefabrication drive or not. It is quite obvious that it is very desirable that we should and also quite obvious that it will not in any way affect the building trade and those employed in it because I do not think, by the wildest stretch of the imagination, the Minister believes he can draw level with a situation which has fallen into arrears, coupled with the increasing demand for houses. When the Minister is replying, he might give the House some indication of what he discovered in Ulm, or Munchen, or wherever it was in Germany he was photographed with his counterpart in the West German Government.

The traffic regulations have been the subject of many expressions of opinion here and there. I think there is one inescapable fact, that is, that the speed limits in built-up areas have not been responsible for cutting down the number of accidents. Somehow I feel that the speed limit of 30 miles an hour, unless it is actually within the confines or the centre of the city, is inadvisable. Coming into Dublin by the Dún Laoghaire route, one is not confined to 30 miles an hour. In many cases it is 40 miles an hour, which is a more reasonable rate of speed. Coming into Dublin by other routes, one finds it is 30 miles an hour all the time. There are many long, straight stretches of road there. One of the things really responsible for accidents is that if you get a lot of traffic in a built-up area like that, although it is fairly straight and you are allowed to travel only 30 miles an hour, you may find one car doing 20 miles an hour, and not capable of doing more than that, and other cars have to pass it at 30 miles an hour. That does not give latitude to pass expeditiously and fast.

For that reason, I think the whole question of the built-up areas and the speed limits should be brought under review. I fully appreciate the fact that it is at its experimental stage now. Of course, that is what they have largely done in the United Kingdom and what they do there today we always seem to do tomorrow. Perhaps the Minister would consider replacing some of these 30 mile an hour speed limits, where he sees it possible to do so, by 40 mile an hour limits. Perhaps we will get a better result therefrom.

I do not know what the Minister or his Department intend to do with regard to the parking situation in Dublin. The Minister in his opening address told us that we were to have 13 new parking places in Dublin. He did not give us any indication where these parking places were to be, when they would be available, or the number of cars they will accommodate. The only thing he told us was that underneath Corporation flats somewhere or another we would have accommodation for cars. This is something which should be dealt with as expeditiously as possible.In Dublin at the moment the streets, which I think could at the present time take the traffic, are entirely prevented from doing so because every street is cluttered up with cars. The streets are so cluttered up because there is nowhere else to park. It is perfectly true to say that every available parking place in Dublin is taken up by the people who live in the city. They get into town in time and use up all the parking space. When people come up from the country, they are obliged to park in Rathmines and Donnybrook. Very often it is hard to get a place out there and they find their way into the city. That may be desirable from the point of view of utilisation of public transport and the financing of CIE. It is bad luck on someone who comes up to do a day's shopping in the city to find he has to spend half an hour in a bus or perhaps ten minutes looking for a parking place in Dublin and a great deal more than half an hour trying to get out. At the rush time, it may take even an hour.

I put it to the Minister that anyone who comes up from rural Ireland to do business in Dublin is considerably impeded by the total lack of organisation in regard to the traffic parking regulations.I think the Minister should give the matter his earnest consideration. He may have been influenced by the fact that the parking arrangements made in London were not a success. There were, I believe, big parking places made underneath Marble Arch and Hyde Park in London which are practically empty. As against that, I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that these are not shopping centres in the accepted sense of the word. They are not within reach of the majority of the shops there. What the people in Dublin want—I am speaking for rural Ireland largely—is to be accommodated somewhere in the centre of the city near the shopping centres where they can park their cars. I cannot understand why the Dublin merchants have not revolted long ago because they must be losing money due to the fact that the people cannot get to the shops.

I wonder whether the Minister has given consideration to the closing of railways and to the potential closing of railways and the greater load of traffic which will be thrown on our Irish roads. Nobody knows from day to day what the latest move with regard to the rail traffic will be. Of course, it is not a matter for the Minister for Local Government but it is a serious matter for him when he finds himself faced with roads on which the cars will be bumper to bumper and hampered by lorries and slow traffic. It means that if the railways go a great deal of heavy traffic will be put on the roads. On the continent of Europe where there has been a great deal of closure of railway lines and a great deal of transference of traffic from the rail to the road, where the double type lorry is very prevalent now, they have moved to meet that situation. The first move necessary to meet that situation is to widen the roads.

For that reason I should like to put this to the Minister. I take it that everything that takes place on the Irish roads has ultimately to be sanctioned by him. I think it would be more advantageous if we widened our roads rather than do what we are doing at the moment—trying to make all the roads straight. In my own county literally thousands have been spent on the reconstruction of straight roads as against bends. Actually, the roads themselves have been left aside and new roads burrowed through fields and farms. I do not think that is a good policy. It is probably all right from the tourist point of view if you want to have a road where the tourist can do 50 to 60 miles an hour and shoot through the country quickly from one place to another.

If we are to face the future, we must keep abreast of the revolution that is taking place in traffic all over the world. We want to widen our roads. One can always put a foot or two on each side at a comparatively small cost. The roads on which I travel from my home to Dáil Éireann could be widened by two feet on each side for comparatively less than the present expenditure on these extravagant schemes. I do not know who is responsible for them. I do not know if they are the idea of the geniuses and engineers within the local authorities or are conceived in the brain of somebody in the Custom House. It is a matter the Minister should review in the near future.

If I may be topical for a moment and refer to my own constituency, I may say that more motorcars come into Ireland from the United Kingdom through Rosslare Harbour than through any other port. That situation will obtain until they get the ferry in Dún Laoghaire, if they ever get it. The cars then have to come north to Wexford. They come on a narrow road that is not particularly good. No attempt seems to be made to widen that road. I have asked questions about it frequently in Dáil Éireann and am told that it is a matter for the local authority. Again I say that everything that comes under the heading of road construction, housing, and so on is subject to the sanction of the Minister for Local Government. It is his job, in the final analysis, to see that it is done properly.

I have given the Minister some idea of the many problems that a rural Deputy faces in relation to matters concerned with his Department.

I should like to make some comments on the question of road safety, with particular reference to the present speed limits. This is a matter for which the whole House must take responsibility to some extent because the House passed the legislation which enforced a 30 miles an hour limit in built-up areas and merely gave permission to the Minister in certain circumstances to impose a higher limit.

Right from the start, I have made it clear that I was not in favour of that policy, for two reasons. A speed limit of 30 miles per hour is far too low. With modern motor vehicles and modern road conditions, a speed limit of 30 miles per hour is entirely unrealistic, especially in view of the fact that a speed limit of 30 miles per hour in fact reduces the speed of a line of traffic to somewhere between 20 and 25 miles per hour. It is completely illusory to imagine that because you are in a 30 miles per hour area, you can do 30 miles per hour. In most cases this is a physical impossibility.

I have made the point before and would like to make it again that varying speed limits are a source of confusion to the motorist. I was very glad that Deputy Briscoe made that point in the Dublin Corporation a couple of nights ago. I thoroughly agree with him in that. What happens is that people are constantly making mistakes as to the speed limit in the area in which they are driving. I very often suffer extreme frustration on the road to Dún Laoghaire, due to people hugging the crown of the road at 25 miles per hour in a 40 mile an hour zone.

In a recent article in the Irish Times, the motoring correspondent gave it as his opinion that one of the main causes of accidents was frustration on the part of drivers. I absolutely agree with him in that. It is because a motorist so often finds himself blocked by slow-moving traffic that he is tempted to take risks in an effort to get ahead of it. That is precisely what is happening. Instead of speed limits resulting in a lower rate of accidents, the number of accidents taking place in the city to-day is appalling. I know it in the course of my own business. Cars are coming in in wrecked condition. Only in very rare instances are these accidents caused by excessive speed. A much more common cause is that a man has been held up for what he feels is an unconscionable length of time—probably only a matter of three or four minutes—behind a big, slow-moving lorry or private car, the driver of which is just dawdling along and getting in everybody's way. The driver who is anxious to get somewhere suddenly finds his patience exhausted, swings out blindly on to his wrong side of the road in an effort to pass, finds himself blocked in getting into his own line again and then goes head on into a car coming from the opposite direction.

A crash of two vehicles at anything over 20 miles an hour is almost invariably fatal. People do not realise that. The speed of the impact is 40, 50 or 60 miles per hour. Statistics have shown that in the United Kingdom the majority of fatal accidents occur in 30 mile per hour zones where the vehicles are not in fact exceeding the limit. I know it is unpopular in some quarters to suggest it but I do solemnly and sincerely suggest that there should be a uniform speed limit of 40 miles per hour in built-up areas. The immediate reaction to such a suggestion is to inquire as to who would seriously advocate doing 40 miles per hour in Moore Street or, for that matter, Grafton Street. The curious thing is that before speed limits were imposed at all, it was quite clear that nobody could do 40 miles per hour in Moore Street or in Grafton Street. It is a physical impossibility. In places where 40 miles per hour would be excessive, it is also unattainable.

Similarly, it is a misconception that such a concession would lead to increased danger. I would say the reverse would be the case because after driving for a considerable period through the city at 20 to 25 miles per hour a driver tends to become dozy and lazy and to feel that he has not got to keep a sharp look out. He gets bored and frustrated and if confronted with some emergency, such as a pedestrian stepping out in front of him, is not nearly so quick to realise the danger and to take avoiding action. If a driver is occasionally able to go at a higher rate, he is obviously more on his guard.

If the policy of having varying speed limits is pursued, we will get ourselves into the situation which exists at present on the continent. I have driven to a considerable extent on the continent.The position in Germany is, in my opinion, about the worst, for the simple reason that the number of road signs is so great that a driver if he is to drive properly, would nearly need to have a navigator with him to keep him fully briefed as to what all the signs are telling him. There are varying speed limit signs. There are other signs showing the gradient of the hill ahead, signs showing the radius of the curve the driver will next encounter, advance information as to road junctions and as to the angle at which they will meet the road upon which the driver is travelling.

The more you encourage a driver to look for signs, the more you encourage him to take his eye off the road, and that is fatal. I mean that literally. The only thing a driver should be looking at is the road ahead of him. A multiplicity of signs represents a distraction and must be avoided at all costs. I would seriously suggest to the Minister that he should go for a uniform speed limit in built-up areas and I would seriously suggest that it be 40 rather than 30 miles per hour; but if the Minister is not prepared to go so far, I would still prefer it to be a uniform 30 miles per hour in the rather more restricted areas.

So far as road accidents are concerned, the solution quite clearly does not rest with reducing the speed of road traffic. Current development in road transport makes it essential that we should regard the matter in an entirely different light, that is, by way of improving the road system. Emphasis has been laid on the widening of the roads but I would not regard that as a solution of the problem at all. We have got to aim at a much higher proportion of dual carriageway roads in the main trunk system.

When we see the appalling accident which took place recently at Gormanston, an accident which took place on a magnificent stretch of straight, wide road, we realise that the straightness and width of the road is no protection against such accidents. Where a magnificent road is an invitation to very high speed and where the traffic moving fastest is also nearest to the oncoming fast traffic, the slightest error in overtaking can lead to the tremendous danger of a head-on collision such as was recently experienced.We have to regard this question of the road system as a national problem. There is no use in widening short stretches of road. It is no more reasonable to do that than to try to improve a river channel by deepening it in one place only. By doing that, you will only give rise to flooding elsewhere.

That has been experienced recently in London where a magnificent new road crossing was produced by bringing one street over another. This was expected to ease the traffic situation tremendously but the only result was that traffic got past that crossing so quickly that it built up into an absolute bottleneck at each end of the tunnel. We must plan our trunk roads on a national basis so that there will be a first-rate dual carriageway road running directly from Dublin to the various provincial cities and towns and also join the provincial towns to one another by way of link roads. Those are the roads which will be taking the heavy traffic and if they are dual carriageway roads, they will take that heavy traffic safely and fast.

Roads are for traffic to move on. At present we are getting to the stage of having roads and trying to prevent anything moving on them except at a snail's pace. That is waste of time, money, fuel and life. A system of national planning cannot be done as long as we leave our road planning to local authorities only. Some have done a magnificent job but it is a tragedy when, coming up from Naas, you come along a magnificent road until you come to the Dublin county boundary where you have to travel over poor, narrow roads into the city. You have the same difficulty in getting out of the city to the North. Plans are being made to bypass Santry, but to get as far as Santry is half an hour's job. That road is taking very heavy traffic indeed. Once you get outside the Dublin county boundary, you begin to make progress. Louth has done remarkably well and Meath has also done well but Dublin is lagging far behind.

There is no use in having isolated stretches of excellent road. That means that the traffic will go racing along the good road and will get into trouble when the road suddenly narrows. I would suggest that a central road authority be set up to take over all the main trunk roads from the local authorities, draw funds from the Road Fund and construct a major road system before it is too late. Every year we wait will mean additional expenditure and, as far as Dublin is concerned, the situation is critical.

I know, in my movements around the city, that it is becoming almost impossible to get into the city unless you get in extremely early or extremely late. If I set off from Sandycove later than 8.30 a.m., I am certainly in trouble. In order to get to Island-bridge at almost any time of the day, I have to go almost up into the mountains if I want to make the journey in any sort of reasonable time. It puts five miles on to my journey and it means ten to 15 minutes in time. That is again a waste of fuel and money. What we will have to do as far as Dublin is concerned is to build new trunk roads leading right into the city and cut out a tremendous number of the present road intersections.

If we take the Bray Road as an example, it is a series of crossroads and very dangerous road junctions. What we have to do there is to make sure that the traffic coming from the side roads to join the main road will not have to cross another line of traffic to do so. The side roads will have to be joined to it by over-crossings or undercrossings so that traffic from these side roads will be gradually filtered into the main road system. It means that crossroads must be abolished on all our major roads leading into and out of the city. It means that we must have a major circular road bypassing the city altogether so that traffic can move from the north to south without having to smash its way through College Green, across O'Connell Bridge and through O'Connell Street.

We must plan ambitiously, and I am glad to note that Dublin Corporation is considering sympathetically, the provision of at least one tunnel under the Liffey to take traffic from the North Quays to the South Quays. We should also have another tunnel to take other cross-city traffic. There are those who say that this is a hopelessly ambitious scheme, but it will have to be put into operation sooner or later, and the longer we leave it, the more expensive it will be. In order to construct these new roadways, the new road authority or the local authority will have to acquire premises which are of increasing value. We are now right up against it, and we must act immediately and act fast. We must act with imagination. I do not believe we should put this matter off by saying we will put the matter in the hands of experts and ask them for their opinion and advice. The very good advice I got from a leading European politician was: "Never ask an expert. Tell him what you want."

That is exactly what we should do in the case of the roads. We should not ask anybody whether a tunnel is possible; we should tell an expert to plan and build a tunnel under the city. We should say to the expert: "Plan a road network for the north side of the city, then the west side and then the south side. Plan it and put it into operation at once." I know we cannot do it all at one fell swoop. We would hope to clear the entrances to and exits from the city in three sections—north, west and south. We should make sure that traffic can move from the centre of the city on to the main roads without causing hopeless confusion.

I have one point on a different subject—the question of the overall housing situation. I was greatly impressed by an article by Mr. Garret Fitzgerald in the Irish Times to-day where he pointed out that, contrary to the opinion of the Opposition, our population is now rising steadily. He went on to point out that all the signs were that the population would continue to increase for probably ten years at least and that by the end of ten years from now a real housing crisis would have arisen. At present the proportion of young people to old people in this country is low. But in ten years' time, according to his statistics and analysis of the population trend, the proportion of young people will be very much higher. This will mean that the number of young married couples will be greater which, in turn, will mean that the need for houses for these young married couples will be very much greater.

The provision of houses on a large scale is something that must be planned well ahead. To be quite frank, I think we have been caught by surprise by our success in reducing the rate of emigration. While emigration was at a high rate, Corporation houses were becoming vacant fairly frequently.Now Corporation houses are not becoming vacant at all. If the population increases, the need for new houses will go up.

I would hope, therefore, that the Minister would follow the advice of Mr. Garret Fitzgerald and have what he calls a proper demographic survey made so that advance plans can be completed for dealing with the housing problem that will arise five years from now and will increase in the following five years. It is only by doing this we will avoid overcrowding, bad housing and frustration amongst our younger people in the future. I would hope therefore that the Minister would undertake such a survey or have it made so that a national housing plan can be drawn up at an early date and we will know where we are going.

My contribution has been largely critical, but I do not want it to be regarded as not being constructive. All I am trying to do is to point out some matters requiring attention. I am confident that the Minister has the ability and enthusiasm to deal with these problems. I only hope he has beaten me to it by starting his plans along the lines I have suggested without waiting for me to make the suggestions.

The Minister has already done quite an amount of good work, and I wish to compliment him on the new grant scheme and the improved Housing Bill he is to introduce.As a representative of the Sligo-Leitrim constituency, I feel something should be done for the people of a constituency such as that with very little industry. In fact, in my own county of Leitrim, we have no industry at all. A through survey of the county was made by the health inspectors, and we discovered there were still hundreds of houses not fit for human occupation. The Minister should endeavour by all means possible to provide money for those people who cannot avail of the grants and have no means of providing houses for themselves.A circular was sent down from the Department requesting that a survey be made and information supplied. I have attended regional meetings during the period of office of three county secretaries in my county; yet I regret to say nothing has been done. The county manager and county engineer are working very hard to have a start made. After the experience we had last winter, the sooner that start is made and the sooner houses are provided for those unable to provide them for themselves, the better for everybody concerned.

No houses have been erected in the county except by way of grant over the past few years. That is very unfair.We are giving decent grants. Years ago, houses were always provided for people who could not provide them for themselves. Delay is experienced in getting inspectors to come out and there is further delay in getting the grants paid. I should like the Minister to take note of that and, as far as possible, to speed matters up. We are the people who are approached about these things. I had a case of a man who was waiting six months for his grant, even though the job had been inspected and a report made. They should speed up the matter as much as possible.

Sligo town is anxiously awaiting the provision of houses for married couples because there is a good waiting list. Young married people who are brought in by the father or mother find that when the parent dies, an order is served on them to get out because they are not legal tenants. It is very unfair that a young man and his wife, perhaps the daughter of the house and her husband, must leave the one home they have when the parent dies and look elsewhere for a house which may be hard to find. I would like the Minister to speed up housing for the many people who approach me and my colleagues.

Another matter that is of much importance in Sligo and Leitrim is the question of allowing a grant for a galvanised or asbestos roof. For some years, those types of roof were eligible for a grant and I agree the Minister did not clamp down quickly on them but people in backward areas do not always see notices in the paper. I am satisfied some went ahead and did really good jobs and discovered then they were not eligible. In my own county, there would be 12 or 14 such cases and I should be very grateful if the Minister would consider giving them a grant because they are in their present position through no fault of their own. They did a good job and are unable to bear the disappointment of having to do without a grant.

Under a new scheme that is mooted, houses will be provided for deserving cases in County Sligo. Some have already been put up and it is the intention of the Department and local authorities to erect them convenient to the road and not on the farm if the farm is in any way backward. That is very disappointing to some of the farming community. It may be a case of an aged brother and sister or an aged married couple and they do not like to leave their old surroundings for a more central place. For that reason, if the local authority with a substantial grant from the Department can erect houses in a central position, I think it would be cheaper for the Minister to agree to a grant for both asbestos and galvanised roofs than to spend about £1,400 for a modern type house that might also be vacant when the aged people pass away. The job could be done very cheaply if the people were given enticement to do it themselves. Being a Donegal man, the Minister knows of these homes and knows when some of the people die out, the houses will never be occupied again. I am sure he would agree, if he were speaking personally to them, that a galvanised or asbestos house would satisfy them and would be much cheaper than the £1,400 house which might become vacant at a later date.

We have many districts really parched for water when there is any drought. At our last council meeting, the highest tributes were paid to two health inspectors who carried out a most thorough water survey of the area. I suggest a water supply should first be provided for areas that are most in need. The survey brought in areas that have a plentiful supply of water. That was part of the scheme, to make a complete survey to ascertain the position but areas most in need should get priority and we could then proceed to the others. About four years ago in my own area, we produced a scheme. We believe it is sanctioned and has now only to come back to the county council. We trust that will happen in the near future so that the work may begin. It is known as the Five-Mile-Burn water scheme.

Twice recently people from Carraroe, about two miles from Sligo, approached me. They have been for years without water and are most anxious that a group of farmers there should be considered immediately and a water supply provided for them.

I can only repeat what has already been said about roads because what applies elsewhere applies also to my county. We have huge road schemes but the county roads are not getting the same amount of money as is spent on main roads. By-roads are almost completely neglected. The main road schemes are too elaborate. This business of miles of concrete posts and netting wire and gates is, I think, not necessary. Less would do and this would make it possible to carry out more work on the county roads. When the county roads are done, then get on with the job and do a thorough job on the main roads.

We still have groups of really good farmers—thanks be to God that we have—and they are living on roads to which very little attention is being given. They are watching thousands upon thousands of pounds being spent on road schemes being carried out everywhere, on the schemes that have been mentioned here today, while their roads are neglected. We have a number of people coming back from England, from Dublin, and elsewhere, and they are very disappointed when they discover no attempt is being made to do any work on the roads which lead to the home. A tarred road leading to the door adds considerably to the value of the farm, be it a big or a small farm. I would appeal to the Minister to give local authorities greater grants for a few years until the county roads are done. When they are done, he can go ahead on the main roads.

From Manorhamilton down into Blacklion, we have a road that was not always heavily taxed with traffic. The railway saved it. Since the Sligo-Leitrim and Northern Counties railway closed down some years ago, that road has been carrying a huge volume of traffic, with the result that it is now in a most dangerous state of disrepair. A bigger grant should be given to a road of that sort. Work should be proceeded with immediately on that road because of the increased volume of traffic.

By-roads need to be looked after, but before I deal with them, I should like to say that there should be some understanding between the Forestry Division and the county council from the point of view of keeping the roads used by the Forestry Division in a better condition.

That would be a matter for another Minister.

I am dealing with the main roads really which are in an impossible condition because the Forestry Division are using them and are doing very little about keeping them in repair. I shall not pursue the matter further, but that is the position. Complaints are being made to me about the condition of the roads, a condition caused by the heavy forestry machinery.

Of course, as I said, the huge machinery that is brought in results in manpower being thrown idle. There is nothing left for that manpower except emigration to England, or elsewhere.If less machinery were used, more work would be available. In a constituency like mine, small farmers hope to get some portion of the work on the road schemes during the winter to tide them over and supplement their incomes from the small farms. Married or single, men need this employment.

Since the formation of this State, great credit is due to the various Ministers for Local Government, as well as to the Department, for the extraordinary improvements that have been carried out down through the years. Returning emigrants are loud in praise of the large mileage of high-class roads and the large number of excellent houses that have been erected since they emigrated from this country many years ago. Despite all the improvements, however, the work is still far from being finished but I pay tribute to the various Ministers for the part they have played and, in particular, the present Minister for Local Government.

The three principal operations are housing, roads, water and sewerage. I am pleased to note that the Minister and the Government intend to introduce new housing legislation which will make larger grants available for certain types of applicants. Housing the small farmer is a particularly complex problem and the provisions embodied in the new Bill will be, from what we have been told, a step in the right direction towards solving that problem.

I have little criticism to make in regard to applicants for houses in rural areas. For a long number of years, I have been a member of a local authority in a rural district. When it comes to formulating a housing scheme, a survey is taken. I regret to say that very often the single men are turned down. Only with great difficulty can one get the managers to accept these applicants, even in cases where there are other members of the family dependent on them. I wish the Minister, through his Department, would drop a very strong hint to our managerial authorities to give even some hope to the single man who is inclined to settle down in this country and who, very often, because the local authority will not accept him for a housing scheme, has to emigrate.

As I said, large numbers of these houses have been built. The work, of course, is not finished, but, as far as this world is concerned, I suppose the only real finish is when we are finished with life. So long as mankind remains in the world, there is bound to be more work to do, no matter what effort is put into work.

Criticism is made of road improvements.I think the Minister and his Department are making a good attempt to grapple with the problem. I do not agree that we should slacken our work on the improvement of our main roads. They are daily becoming our chief arteries of transport and cannot be built up in a few weeks or a few years. It will be a long time before we have the country adequately covered in this respect. There are, of course, in my county still minor roads not rolled or tarred but everybody in the county is satisfied with the present progress and realises it is only a matter of time until the problem is solved in County Cork.

I come now to the question of water supplies, a most essential amenity in town and country. I had the humiliation of seeing men parading in protest against the provision of a water supply. I pitied those whose standard of intelligence was so low. Water supply and sewerage schemes have contributed to a large degree to the elimination of a good many diseases, particularly the fevers. I can still remember, though a bit old in years, the time when certain villages and towns in my county were hotbeds and breeding grounds of fevers. We had fever hospitals throughout the county but now, as far as I know, thank God, we have no patients for those hospitals. I attribute that to the fact that our people have a very good water supply, proper sanitary accommodation, better housing and better food.

I compliment the Minister on his efforts to see that water will be on tap in every house in the country. Apart altogether from human considerations, a water supply is very essential in our dairying districts because it is necessary to keep our cattle as well as our human beings free from disease. The Department, as well, are now interesting themselves in group schemes. I welcome that, but I am not quite satisfied with the co-operation and co-ordination between the local authorities and these groups. This is a matter that deserves special consideration, which should be examined minutely by the Minister's officials so that encouragement can be given to those who are inclined, from their own resources, to provide themselves with water supplies.

In the North Cork housing and sanitary district, we have a big drive at the moment for a water supply to cover the entire area. It has been a planned drive over a number of years. It will be some time before every district can have its supply but I must compliment the local authority engineers on the way they have drafted the regional schemes, without which there would be thousands of people in the area without a decent water supply. I have no more to say, having dealt with the principal items that came to my mind, but as far as the Department's work is concerned on housing, roads, water and sewerage schemes, I wish them God speed.

This debate has dragged out over many days and I do not want to protract it further. Primarily, as a Dublin Deputy, I wish to add my protest to the others made from these benches in respect of the appalling state of affairs which has developed in regard to housing in Dublin city, a state of affairs in which there are 10,000 people on the waiting list, people who have been evacuated from houses falling down around them; a state of affairs which, by deliberate action of Fianna Fáil, has been allowed to develop; a state of affairs which is primarily due to the financial policy laid down in the first Programme for Economic Expansion which postulated that we already had an ample infra-structure of housing and social amenities.

Arising out of that economic doctrine, we have had over the past five years a considerable decline in expenditure of State moneys on housing in Dublin and an appalling failure to meet the housing needs of the citizens; we have had a tremendous tapering off in housebuilding between 1957 and 1962. The assumption in that programme that we have an adequate infra-structure of housing, hospitals and other social amenities established a completely false scale of priorities. There is little money for housebuilding in Dublin but plenty of money for intercontinental hotels and for palatial offices for State companies. There is plenty of money for all sorts of extravagant schemes. There is plenty of money for Mr. Verolme and Mr. Flatley but very little money for housebuilding in the city of Dublin. That is the state of affairs which the Minister has deliberately allowed to develop by the policy which he has applied.

If we had listened to the economists 40 years ago, we would never even have commenced the slum clearance programme. Housing and social expenditure, they said, is deadweight debt, the concept laid down in the report of the Banking Commission in 1938 which has been the keystone of Fianna Fáil financial policy: housing does not yield a short-term cash profit; therefore it is not as desirable a form of investment as are grants to industry and agriculture, grants in too many cases to persons like Mr. Flatley and Mr. Verolme.

The same concept is represented quite recently in the latest report of the Central Bank. As Deputy Booth said here it is for the Minister to tell the experts what to do. It is not for them to lay down what State policy should be in this respect. What a shocking tragedy it is that we have allowed so much time to pass, that we have allowed building costs to increase at such a tremendous rate without providing ourselves with adequate housing at a time when costs were so much lower. The same can be applied to the school building programme though I do not wish to go into that at this stage.

However, I do wish to impress upon the Minister that building costs are skyrocketing monthly, that it costs twice as much money to erect a block of flats to-day as it did ten years ago. That, to my mind, is a major tragedy, that so many opportunities have been missed because the economists told us not to proceed with social investments, that it is not productive expenditure, that it does not yield a short-term cash profit. This concept of deadweight debt so called should be cast aside once and for all.

There is an appalling position in regard to housing in Dublin city at present. So much has been said about it here in the past few weeks that I do not wish to detain the House unduly by repeating the sorry story at length. There are 10,000 people on the waiting list. There are very many people in condemned dwellings who cannot be housed because of the position which has developed in regard to houses which deliberately have been permitted to deteriorate to such an extent that they are falling down around the people and we have had the tragic deaths of four persons.

The aspect of the housing problem which, to my mind, was the most serious before the development of the position which arose last year was the plight of the young married people who are sub-tenants of their parents in Corporation houses. In that connection I think it worthwhile to draw the attention of the House to the very obvious paradox to be seen in regard to the slum clearance scheme. Twenty years ago when a young working man was getting married, he could usually find himself a tenement room. It may have been inadequate and unpleasant but a young man who spent a few nights walking around the tenement quarters of Dublin could easily find himself a room at 7/6d. or 5/- a week which at least provided a roof over his head and enabled him to get married and to provide his bride with that privacy which young married people value so very much.

In our housing policy we have not taken account of the absence of those abodes for young people wishing to get married. The pattern which has developed over the past 20 years is that if a working man's son is getting married he usually fails in his attempt to find housing for himself and is compelled to bring his bride into his parents' home or, conversely, in many cases the bride brings her husband into her family home. Everything is plain sailing for a year or so until the first baby arrives or perhaps the second baby, and it becomes apparent after two or three years that what was intended to be a temporary arrangement has become a semi-permanent one. Then perhaps another member of the same family wants to get married and feels he is entitled to the same chance as was offered to his older brother or sister. In too many cases the sorry position develops where the wife has to return to her mother, perhaps bringing the children with her, and the husband, because of the overcrowding position which has developed in both family homes, remains with his parents.

I have always understood—and I would like the Minister to correct me if I am wrong because housing finance is a rather complex matter—that the reason why the Dublin Corporation were so reluctant to house these young married people with one or two or perhaps three children, no longer newly-weds and no longer eligible for the lottery held by the Dublin Corporation every year which houses a small percentage of those deserving to be housed, is that subtenants of Corporation houses, even if they are sons or daughters, do not qualify for the full rate of State subsidy, and I believe that state of affairs still applies. I believe that the full subsidy of two-thirds is available in such cases only if the income of the applicant is £5 10s. per week with an addition of 10/- for each child. Until such time as the Minister changes his policy in regard to this question of subtenants, the problem will continue to exist. It is a very serious problem and one which has serious social and indeed moral aspects. It is a problem which leads to much frustration and unrest, a problem which should not exist at this stage of our development and I would urge the Minister to address himself to it.

I undertook not to detain the House at length and while there is much I should like to say on the housing problem, most of it has been said already by other speakers and I do not wish to repeat it. Deputy Booth had a lot to say about traffic problems in Dublin city and elsewhere. In last night's Evening Herald, it was reported that at present there are being carried out in Dublin city ten major schemes of road works. I have personal knowledge and daily experience of one of those schemes which has been going on in Fitzwilliam Street for some weeks past and going on at a gloriously leisurely pace. If the Corporation are not prepared to speed up these road schemes in the central city area, the Minister should take them to task. In the summertime work stops at 5 o'clock when you have still six hours of the long summer evenings left to do the work. In most English cities, and I believe even in Belfast, major road schemes are proceeded with over the weekends. I am not saying that that should or should not be done. Perhaps in certain circumstances it should but it is clear that Dublin Corporation are quite unconcerned about the problems of traffic congestion which their road schemes cause.

Again, as Deputy Booth and other speakers said, much improvement in the traffic congestion situation could be effected if there were a tunnel under the Liffey or a bridge over the river to the east of O'Connell Bridge. Such a bridge was mooted as far back as 15 or 20 years and there was squabbling between Dublin Corporation and the Dublin Port and Docks Board as to who should make the first move. I do not know if the Minister has been able to resolve the impasse but I feel he should step in. We must not blame the Corporation entirely for inactivity because again we are up against a financial problem. Dublin contributes very considerable sums to the Road Fund and because the Road Fund is administered on a mileage basis, calculated with reference mostly to main roads, the contribution paid by the Department to the Corporation for road schemes is entirely out of proportion to the city's needs. It is time that the basis on which that contribution is distributed was revised. A position of serious inequity exists in that respect.

Talking of a bridge over the Liffey leads me to the question which has been mentioned during the course of the debate of the future of the Grand Canal which serves to create a bottleneck on the southern boundaries of the central city area. The outward movement of traffic from the city on the southern side is confined to half a dozen bridges over the canal. At least this much can be said in favour of closing the canal, that it would open up many new outlets and considerably ease the traffic problem. At present traffic proceeding southwards from the city centre is confined to four major arteries over the Grand Canal. That is not to say that it is necessarily the right thing to close the Grand Canal.

I must confess I take a very narrow view of the problem, the view of the Dublin ratepayer. The Grand Canal is not being maintained by CIE and if it is to be foisted on to the Dublin Corporation, who do not want it and certainly do not want the responsibility of maintaining it at considerable expense to the Dublin ratepayers, I for one will object. The Dublin ratepayers are already loaded with enough charges which should be levied on the Exchequer at large. Perhaps the Minister will avail of this opportunity to tell us what are his intentions in regard to the Grand Canal for it is perfectly clear that CIE have no intentions whatever in regard to it. They are not maintaining it; they are not even railing it off in those parts where children have fallen in and have been drowned. It would be gravely wrong if the citizens of Dublin who contribute so much to the subsidisation of CIE losses were to be compelled, willynilly, to accept responsibility for the maintenance of the canal in the city area.

One further point I want to mention is in relation to Small Dwellings Act loans. In my constituency where a lot of housing has been going on, much of it under the Small Dwellings Acts, I have had several complaints about defects appearing in houses after they have been occupied. I would urge the Minister to see to it that builders who benefit from the operation of these Acts are subjected to scrutiny and that they are informed that as high a standard of building is expected of them as the Dublin Corporation apply to their own schemes, and that is a high standard.

Unfortunately, it seems to me to be the case that, in respect of some of the private schemes financed under the Small Dwellings Act, the high standard of material and of workmanship normally adhered to by the Corporation, in its own schemes, has not been implemented by private builders. The Minister's security for the loans and the Corporation's security is, to that extent, diminished and I think it is time the Minister checked up on the methods of scrutiny which are applied in these cases.

I should, at the outset, like to compliment the Minister on the great work he and his Department are doing at the moment, and particularly himself, for the progressive and modern outlook he has generated in the Department and particularly throughout the country. I think the demand for a modern standard of housing which exists throughout rural areas today is indeed a compliment to the work he is doing.

In County Kerry, our people are looking for the fully-serviced houses, modern to the maximum detail, a position which did not exist even five years ago. The housing of our people is fairly well in hand. A greater number of our smallholders and farmers have taken up their own housing programme, both in new houses and reconstructed houses. We have, however, at the moment, 520 condemned houses which have to be replaced within the next two years, and I am asking the Minister's help particularly in certain aspects of these cases. At a housing meeting of the Kerry County Council on Monday we were trying to devise a programme whereby we could write off those 520 houses in two years but we have been informed that there is a shortage of engineering staff and it is next to impossible to get extra staff. Some of our engineers have even left the county during the week to take up better positions and this is affecting our road building, our water schemes and particularly our housing programme.

We think the Minister's Department could short circuit a lot of the regulations which are hampering us. We find, for instance, first of all, our medical staff have to examine a site for a rural house or cottage. It then has to be inspected by our engineers and eventually submitted to the Department. In some cases his engineers have to inspect the site. This entails two or three visits of our engineering staff to some of those sites. It is particularly obvious that all this is not necessary where a small farmer or a person building his own house is concerned. One visit by the Minister's inspector could deal with the whole problem and we would like to have something on those lines developed to help us to get the maximum number of sites available in County Kerry at present.

We hope to reconstruct some of the 520 houses but we must build over 400 new houses and it is urgently necessary to get rid of the condemned dwellings in two years. We think with the housing development programme which is taking place in County Kerry we are likely to have a lot of younger people, who will find industrial employment, looking for re-housing from two years onwards. We are trying to get rid of the back-log in order to keep our programme going forward. As stated, the Minister can be of tremendous help to us if he can get some of the regulations, which are hampering us, slashed to enable us to get at those sites the simplest way possible.

Our ordinary housing programme is proceeding according to plan and we have not any terrific difficulties where individual applications are concerned.They seem to be coming out of the Department quickly and we have nothing to complain about.

Turning to the road programme, we have immense road construction work going on in the county at the moment but I think the position which seemed to develop about three or four years back should be reversed. That was where the tourist grant was devoted to the construction of our main roads. That grant, some years back, was responsible for immensely, valuable work in the mountainy regions for the progress of our tourist industry in County Kerry. Several new roads could be constructed through the most scenic parts of Kerry, in particular the road from Brandon Point to Brandon Creek, which would open up the north side of the Dingle Peninsula and bring tourists to one of the most beautiful scenes on the west coast. We have, in addition, the sea coast from Portmagee to the Glen which would open up a further scenic vista. We have the Black Valley over the site of Carrantuohill into Glencar opening up a vast mountain range there. Lastly, we have Valentia Bridge, which would open up Valentia Island to our tourists. This would be of immense value to our tourists and certainly to our economic position in County Kerry. We believe we have a big influx of people who are interested in building houses or holiday chalets along our scenic coast. Possibly some of them may come to live permanently with us. This would be of immense help in regard to the valuation position in the county and would help the rates particularly. In addition, such people would use up local materials and, in certain cases, give much needed employment. I think the tourist road grant should be channelled into those mountain areas as they were applied in the very early stages. I would ask the Minister to do his best, in the coming year, to make a start in that direction in County Kerry.

There is a strong feeling throughout the country that the new traffic signs, which in many cases are hundreds of yards outside the nearest built-up part of towns or villages, should be located nearer the towns or villages. In the town of Killorglin—my own town—there are two signs practically up against the built-up part of the town and they seem to do a very good job. This would cut out a lot of the dissatisfaction which motorists find coming in on straight stretches into towns where they have to cut down speed at a time when it is not really necesary. I think the Minister should have the position re-examined for the purpose of getting the traffic signs brought closer into the towns.

The water schemes in my county seem to be making progress in a very big way. We have a big part of the county supplied at the moment, particularly the poorer area from Dingle Peninsula to Rathlin Point. We have already supplied an extensive part of North Kerry and a good part of East Kerry. We hope inside five years to have the county completely supplied. We are grateful for the introduction of this scheme which has played such an important part in developing a progressive outlook in Kerry. We hope to see a new type of tourism developing there, that tourists will be taken into the ordinary rural houses. The installation of water and sewerage, which has been carried out in a very big way in the coastal areas, is helping in that direction.

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to one particular type of people who are affected by the position in regard to rateable valuation in many small towns and villages. I refer to the small shopkeepers whose valuations may be anything from £10 to £20. In Kerry, where the rate is over £3 in the £, such a person is faced with an exorbitant rate which he is finding it very difficult to meet. Many such people come to me seeking time to pay or a reduction of the rates, which in some cases has to be given. A scheme should be brought in to deal with this matter. These people are really up against it. People purchase goods from the chain shops and selfservice stores, where they can buy them cheaper than from the ordinary wholesale channels. This is an indication of what the ordinary shopkeeper has to put up with in trying to sell the little he does sell. He can sell only the odd article which it does not pay the customer to go a long distance to the larger shops to buy.

Many small shopkeepers are not earning £3 or £4 a week for themselves.The rates represent a very big burden on them. The Government should consider giving them some relief of rates in future. They are the hardest hit section of the community. They do not qualify for the full house reconstruction grant; they get only one-third.In many cases they have big old houses which are practically incapable of repair. They are trying to keep going from day to day. I would ask the Minister, therefore, in the near future, to bring in regulations whereby such persons would be helped to meet the obligations which are a crushing burden on them.

Admittedly, this is a very important Estimate. Every aspect of local government has been referred to and more Deputies have contributed to the debate this year than ever before.

Deputies on all sides of the House welcome the speed limits imposed in towns and cities. There are built-up areas where speed limit signs have not been erected. I have been unable to discover the reason far that. There are certain built-up areas in my constituency where no speed limit sign has been erected. I understand that it is a matter for the inspectors of the Department of Local Government in consultation with the Garda Síochána and the local authority engineers to select the cities for speed limit signs. I trust that when the matter comes up for review at the end of twelve months speed limit signs will be erected in villages and towns where they have been recommended to the local authorities in order to protect pedestrians and children attending national, secondary and vocational schools.

I notice when travelling to Dublin, that either in Kilbeggan or Moate—I am not sure which—the speed limit signs are hidden by branches of trees. The Minister should ask local authorities to ensure that the signs will be clearly visible to drivers on the road.

I would suggest that there should be a 12 inch-wide line painted across the road where a speed limit sign is erected. It is very easy to pass a speed limit sign without noticing it. A yellow line across the road would warn motorists of the fact that they were approaching a speed limit zone.

I listened to a Deputy from the Fine Gael benches from my own constituency referring to derelict graveyards. I am sorry he is not here now to listen to me but I am sure my words will be conveyed to him. It is a pity that he would not cast his mind back to the last estimates meeting of the local authority of which he and I are members. He would recall that a certain sum of money was agreed to by the local authority for the purpose of cleaning up graveyards and that a start has been made. I regret that the Deputy thought fit to raise the matter in this House.

The clearing of derelict sites is a matter of urgency. The Minister is to be congratulated for making grants available. There are many derelict sites in large cities the owners of which are not known. They represent a danger to the public. The Minister should recommend to local authorities that they should be cleared.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7th November, 1963.
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