On the motion for the Adjournment to-day, Deputy M.P. Murphy gave notice he would raise the subject matter of Question No. 31 on yesterday's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate. - County Cork Flour Mill Quota.
At the outset, I would hope the Minister has regained his composure, because he did not seem to be in a good mood yesterday. I am hopeful we will approach this question in a more co-operative spirit than that which prevailed on the last two occasions we discussed it in the House.
I regret it is mandatory on me to avail of the adjournment to raise this matter. I feel such a problem as this could be discussed more effectively at other levels. However, the Minister's attitude to this question is incomprehensible.When asked to do so in this House and by representative organisations, he would not make any representations whatever to Messrs. Rank. When organisations, particularly the local urban council, requested him to meet a deputation in regard to the proposed closing of the mills, he refused to do so. It is not easy to understand the Minister's attitude, particularly since these mills are located in the area where he was brought up. It is out of place for the Minister to adopt the dictatorial attitude he has adopted to this question.By virtue of his office, he has certain delegated functions. Surely one of these is to meet representative groups to discuss matters of major importance.
I believe this could be termed a matter of major importance because it deals with the closure of a mill which has been in operation for many years and which, up to now, has given much-needed employment in the area of Shannonvale. When it was announced by the owners of this mill some short time ago that they were of a mind to close it, the people of the district naturally were dumbfounded. They made representations to their public representatives, local authorities and other voluntary organisations with a view to averting the closure, if possible.
Unfortunately, no good came of these representations, because the Minister was adamant and would not make the slightest move to help these people. He would not even inquire from Messrs. Rank if there was any hope of saving this mill. It is peculiar that he expressed no concern whatever. I regard that as a grave dereliction of duty on the part of the Minister. A few weeks ago, I asked him here to use his good offices with Messrs. Rank with a view to averting a closure. That was the time he gave me and the organisations concerned the information that he did not propose to do so and that he was not legally obliged to do so. He had no regard whatever for any moral obligation that might exist.
The question being dealt with at present concerns the quota system in operation for flour mills. In his reply yesterday the Minister stated that the quota for Shannonvale was 29,759 barrels. Such a high quota is an indication of the importance of this mill. It was one of the major mills in Cork in bygone years. In the latter part of his reply, the Minister says:
As the flour mill quotas are related to the 12 monthly period, 1st September to 31st August, assessment of a mill's adherence to its quota obligations cannot be undertaken until the end of this period.
It was part of the Minister's function to make that query. He was legally obliged to do so. I assume the Minister has taken it for granted that Messrs. Rank have complied with the regulations. But we do not know. The Minister has told us he cannot ascertain whether they have or not until after 31st August, 1964. The mill will then be long closed down and the men employed there scattered, possibly to England and other places. What I had in mind when I asked the Minister to ascertain whether the quota regulations had been adhered to was the information in respect of the year ended on 31st October, 1963. Up to yesterday the Minister did not know if the regulations had been contravened, because he did not trouble to find out. He more or less implied that in his answer.
It is possible this company have adhered to the regulations. We do not know. However, the Minister should be more watchful of his duties, because we know since the Dáil assembled we have had questions about alleged laxity on the part of the Minister in dealing with regulations governing other bodies. I refer to the questions relating to insurance, where it is alleged the Minister was lackadaisical, with financial loss to a big number of people.
That does not arise.
On 30th October, Deputy Esmonde tabled a question to ascertain from the Minister the number of flour mills operating in this country. He was informed that the number of mills was 24. I should like to know how many of these are in the Rank group because the reply does not give that information. The mill I refer to is under the name of Messrs. Bennett and Co., the former owners who sold it a long time ago to Messrs. Rank. It is reasonable to assume that most of the 24 mentioned by the Minister in his reply to Deputy Esmonde are now in the hands of a limited number of companies and that the monopoly system has been helped greatly by the Minister's attitude.
The Deputy should not enlarge the scope of the question.
That is what I am about to do.
I am asking the Deputy to remain within the four corners of the question.
The quota system was introduced by the Minister's Government in 1933, supposedly to help small mills and to keep those employed in small mills at work. Let us see how the Government have attended to their duties since then. They have allowed organisations that want a monopoly of flour mills, such as the organisation involved in this question, to buy up the smaller mills and to buy their quotas for no other purpose than to close down the mills and wipe them out——
I am referring to quotas. We know the quotas of small mills have been swallowed up by the big organisations. In this case, the Minister told us that so far as the quota for Shannonvale Mills is concerned, it is no longer required and has been extinguished. Then the monopoly group has no competition from that mill. That is why they bought it, to wipe out the competition. I am sure that they did not intend, when purchasing this or other mills, to keep them in production. What they wanted and paid money for was to create a monopoly. We have the fruits of this system, as I had occasion to tell the Minister for Industry and Commerce and the Minister for Agriculture, in the enormously high prices of certain products such as flour and wheaten meal. I do not propose to go into this at present. I am satisfied from my own personal experience of milling wheat in a small way that there are enormous profits. Buying a stone of wheat at 4/- and selling it at 8/- means 100 per cent gross profit and we know the net profit to the miller is enormous.
The Minister, by virtue of his attitude on this matter, is condoning and approving that system which is detrimental to the public and particularly the consuming public. In West Cork, as the people in many other places are doing, we are fighting very hard at present to develop our resources and as far as possible avoid centralisation of industry. I need only mention, in support of that, the big survey of West Cork which has been produced after a great deal of work and industry by a number of experts with a view to getting advice on development on the West Cork area, so as not only to hold the employment we have but to increase it, if possible. At the time those Cork organisations were discussing this survey and its possible advantages, the blow came in regard to this relatively important industry in West Cork. It was to fold up as a result of Messrs. Rank having bought the mill from the former owners. One can see how incensed the people of West Cork are at the treatment they have got and are getting from the Government.
Is it to be assumed that there is no longer any need for industries to continue in relatively small districts such as Shannonvale and other districts where they have existed over a long period? Is it to be assumed that it is Government policy to wipe out industries in such areas, allegedly on the grounds that they are uneconomic, and transfer them to Dublin, Cork, Limerick or some other centre? If that is so, it is a bad day for rural Ireland. How are the workers to exist in these areas if the Government persist in their attitude?
The Deputy is enlarging the scope of the question.
We are dealing with the quotas allocated to Shannonvale which are now being extinguished.
The question asks if Messrs. Rank were permitted to transfer this quota to their Cork factory, and if so, why?
I am coming to that.
The question is limited and the Deputy cannot overstep that limit.
I do not think any Deputy could possibly keep to that narrow road you have set down for me and I respectfully suggest that these other matters are, in my opinion, relevant to the quota. I am making the case according to information supplied by the Minister——
That is another thing on which the Deputy and I disagree.
The Minister says the quota has been extinguished. I am charging the Minister with not performing his functions as he should by virtue of his office as Minister for Industry and Commerce; that he has not inquired from Messrs. Rank whether this company has adhered to the regulations. He does not know. He states in his reply that the flour milling quotas are related to the year ended 31st August. That implies that he does not know. Surely that is a grave dereliction of duty on his part, something on the same lines as the Equitable Insurance Company——
The Deputy may not raise other matters.
As in the case of the other company, if by any chance this company have contravened the regulations, what would be the result of the Minister's laxity? It would be much graver than his alleged laxity in the other business. It would mean this mill was wrongfully closed down, that the workers were disemployed wrongfully, that no longer do jobs exist for 25 men in the area. An application was made to the Minister and — that is what he is given his salary for and has a big office in Kildare Street for, to inquire into matters that come before him and his Department — he does not know whether the regulations were observed. He may know now. He may have inquired since I gave notice that I would raise this question on the Adjournment but up to the time he answered this question he was not sure.
The implication was that he was not going to inquire until next September when the Shannonvale mills would be almost forgotten in the area and the men employed there would have scattered to different countries. Is that not dereliction of duty on the Minister's part? I am asking him if everything is in order and if the Minister accepts responsibility in this matter, why should he not meet the local bodies? Why not say to Clonakilty UDC, the local authority adjoining the area: "I shall meet you or get a senior representative of my Department to meet you and explain the position." Surely, if the Minister had a good case, that was the way to go about it? If he had done that, there would have been no need to take up the time of the House this evening but he did no such thing. He did not inquire whether the regulations had been complied with. He assumed they have been but he is not too sure. He made no effort at all to discharge the moral obligation which I think he has.
The Deputy's time is up. He has had 20 minutes.
In conclusion, I want to say to the Minister that, even though I did probably speak forcefully in this matter because of the many representations made to me, I hope that at this late hour, he may change his approach and that, as a result of that change, something may be done. I am appealing to the Minister to do away with this centralisation policy——
The Deputy is exceeding his 20 minutes.
Yes, Sir, and to leave these little industries, small though they may be, alone.
I suppose it is inevitable that, once a person becomes a Minister, he should be accused of dereliction of duty and be lambasted in every way. Possibly that is one of the hazards of the job — to be lambasted, not only in this House but outside it. I can assure Deputy Murphy that I have been guilty of no dereliction of duty in this case, or the other case he quoted quite irrelevantly. I do not want to go into that now. I spoke about it on the relevant occasion.
What Deputy Murphy fails to understand is that the consumption of bread and flour has been decreasing in this country, as it has been decreasing in other countries where the standard of living has been improving. In 1933, quotas were fixed in respect of the milling quantities in mills throughout the country. The purpose of fixing these quotas was to ensure that mills would not transfer their quotas from one mill to another and thereby jeopardise employment in different parts of the country. A mill was required to mill not less than 90 per cent of its quota. Mills were not permitted to transfer quotas from one mill to another, except on two occasions when the mills were in close proximity to each other and in circumstances in which the employment in the respective districts could not be affected by the transfer alone.
The mill in question was purchased by the Cork Milling Company about, I think, 1935, at a time when it was about to close down. The Cork Milling Company are part of the Rank organisation now and I want to assure Deputy Murphy that down through the years the Rank organisation have made every effort to maintain the mill in production. They have carried out certain improvements there. They have made certain alterations in procedure. I also want to assure him that I have been in touch with the circumstances obtaining in this mill through the Adaptation Council set up for the flour milling industry. The reasons given by the owners for the closing down of this mill have been potent ones.
Notwithstanding all their best efforts they have found they cannot maintain this mill in economic production. At the same time, they have in different parts of the country mills which are economic in their production but which have been unable to mill the quantity of flour up to their capacity. I do not think it is unreasonable that an owner of a factory premises, if he finds production uneconomic, should not be obliged by anybody to continue in that uneconomic production. Unfortunately that was the case here.
I want also to refute the suggestion of Deputy Murphy that I am not aware as to whether mills throughout the country are complying with the law. The Ranks mills, the mills the property of the same company as owned the Shannonvale mills, have been milling within the law and the latest returns I have for the last year indicate that that is so. Even if they transfer the quantity of flour that they could have milled in Clonakilty to their other mills, Ranks would still not exceed the quota allotted to them in these other mills. They have, in fact, an excess capacity of some 133,000 barrels in their other mills, and that is four times the quota alloted to the Clonakilty mill.
As Deputy Murphy has said, we are trying to promote industrialisation throughout the country and I would be doing a disservice, I think, to that programme, and I certainly would scare off, I believe, prospective industrialists if I were seen to oblige people to carry on uneconomic production. Unfortunately, there are some 20 to 25 persons immediately affected by this closure, but I am informed that the mill owners are in direct consultation with the trade unions representing these men to provide suitable compensation schemes for them. I agree that is not a very satisfactory substitute for a steady job, but the fact is that, were it not for the take-over, this mill would have gone out of production long ago, without any possibility of redundancy compensation for these men.
Deputy Murphy berated me for my refusal to meet a deputation. If Deputy Murphy would read the letter I sent to the Clonakilty urban district council in reply to their request that I receive a deputation, he will see that I pointed out in that the economic facts of the situation. In those circumstances, I did not see that any useful purpose could be served by my receiving them. I am conscious of the obligations of the people of Clonakilty to pay rates to keep their local authority going and I believe I would be imposing a burden on the people of Clonakilty were I to invite a deputation to come to see me in circumstances in which I knew there was nothing I could do to insist on this mill continuing in operation.
I can assure Deputy Murphy I am very conscious of the difficulties that will be created in the area. I appreciate fully that there is a need for greater industrial employment in the area. I have had several consultations with people representative of the area with a view to promoting industries there and I shall continue to do all I can to encourage the establishment of suitable industries, not only in Clonakilty but throughout West Cork generally. Incidentally, I might remind the Deputy that that is not the place in which I was born and reared. I was born and reared in Cork city.
The Minister is a neighbour.
Not that that gives me any advantage over people born in West Cork.
The Minister's forebears came from West Cork.
If Deputy Murphy will, in the ordinary course of his duties, come to my office any day, I will discuss the merits of this whole position with him. I think that would be far more effective than his getting up here and berating me as he did. He admonished me not to lose my temper with him as, he said, I did yesterday. I do not remember losing my temper yesterday but, having issued that admonition, he proceeded to let off steam himself. Letting off steam is, I suppose, the privilege of a Deputy, especially here in Leinster House. However, he has now let off steam and his remarks will be quoted in the journals which circulate among his constituents. To that extent he will have achieved his immediate purpose.
I am surprised now at the twist the Minister is giving this.
Deputy Murphy never approached me personally about this.
I am surprised——
I did not interrupt the Deputy. The Deputy put down questions. If he had come to see me, I believe I could have convinced him of the merits of the case.
The Minister is well aware of the type of question I asked.
If he had done so, I believe he would not have spoken as he did to-day, accusing me of dereliction of duty in regard to my moral obligations to people like the workers in the Shannonvale mills. I assure the Deputy now that I have every sympathy with them and anything I can do to create alternative employment will be done. I hope I shall have the co-operation of Deputy Murphy instead of his getting up and ranting here.
The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 20th November, 1963.