Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 Dec 1963

Vol. 206 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Increase in RIC Pensions: Motion.

General MacEoin

I move:

That in the opinion of Dáil Éireann the Government should increase the pensions of resigned and dismissed members of the RIC and thus give them "not less generous treatment" as promised and grant them parity with their comrades who continued in the service.

I know this motion has the support of many Deputies. I regret that it should be necessary to introduce such a motion, because the promise was made specifically by an Irish Government, and given with the consent of every member of the Dáil of that day, that these men would not be treated any less generously. The members of the RIC who acted on the appeal then made feel they have a very great grievance because the promise then given to them was not observed at any time since. Due to the increased cost of living, and other reasons, the pensions they are now getting are totally inadequate to meet their requirements. Certainly these pensions do not come up to the standard enjoyed by the people who continued to serve on in that force.

It is a long time since that promise was made, since the appeal was issued to the members of that force to refuse to serve—to resign. We know there were members of that force who were dismissed because they refused to obey the orders given to them to carry out brutal activities. They are still suffering from that loyalty to the Irish people. I personally sent the appeal to the members of the force through their relatives—brothers, fathers and mothers. I made it quite clear when talking to them that if they resigned, they would not be treated less generously than those who served on.

Why did we do that at the time? It was because we recognised that the RIC were the eyes and ears of the British administration, that they knew every blade of grass, and therefore were aware of all the activities in their respective areas. They were a very efficient force, well sheltered, well paid. Being the eyes and ears of the British administration, the Irish Government of the day started out to break up the efficiency of the force and to lower the morale of the members who carried on. This was secured by the efforts of the comrades of those who continued to serve on.

The morale of the RIC did in fact break up, and by our action then, we compelled the British and the RIC, in a few months in 1919, to vacate more than 400 barracks throughout the country. That left the job of administration practically impossible for the British and made our activities all the easier. As I have said, the promise was at that time given that those who resigned would not be treated any less generously. I shall not compare the pensions these people now have with the pensions others who served with them now enjoy from the British Government. I know our pensions are a very poor comparison. The Government should honour the bond.

There are dismissed RIC: there are some members of the force who, for various reasons, were unable to resign and some of these became members of our Forces. When the State was established, they were recognised and given appointments to compensate them because they carried out the orders they received. But I consider the old member of the RIC who had a year or two to serve and was called on to resign and surrender everything made a big sacrifice. I regret to say it was a sacrifice because we never honoured the bond. Some of these, even some officers and one in particular whom I know said: "I have only one year to serve and surely I can punch my ticket for that year? I shall not do this, that or the other." He was dismissed because he was caught out although he was an innocent man in many ways. I am glad that the Cumann na nGaedheal Government gave him his pension. I visited him in Dungarvan and I was in uniform at the time. He said the visit meant more to him than the pension because he and his family could hold up their heads when I had paid him that tribute. It would show that he was an Irishman before anything else. He richly deserved that little tribute which was resented by certain people—why, I do not know.

I do not understand why people are jealous because these dismissed and resigned RIC men have mediocre pensions in view of the fact that a promise was made to them that they would not be less generously treated. I feel it is not necessary to labour the case and that the Government will recognise the justice of the claim. Practically every Deputy recognises their claim and there was only one argument made against it—the financial stringency. According to all the reports, that no longer holds. Therefore, I hope the Government propose to accept this motion and put it into effect at the earliest possible moment.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

I second the motion, reserving the right to speak later.

Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach (Mr. J. Brennan)

I should like some more definite information before speaking in this debate. I had hoped the proposer would have had some information. As the House knows, the Minister is now trying to compile a brief on the motion, having been taken by surprise, as I had to make a final arrangement at the time and it was not possible to take the other motion. For that reason, he has to prepare the brief now.

I am not prepared to accept all the mover of the motion has said in regard to the way these men were treated. Subject to correction, I believe that they got increases as time went on pretty much in line with increases given to other sections. I would not say these took the form of the various rounds of increases given periodically and systematically to various groups of public servants. I think it is true that at different times their position was taken into account and they got an increase in accordance with the increases given to other pensioners. It is fair to say that they may always rest assured that their position will be examined in conjunction with that of other similarly placed retired public servants as time goes on and any justifiable increase given.

I agree with what the proposer has said regarding the important part played by these men at a very difficult time. The RIC were undoubtedly the eyes and ears of the British forces here and the strong appeal made to them was possibly one of the most effective actions taken and contributed to what was ultimately achieved more than any other action at that time. They should not be looked upon any less favourably than those who took an active part or had active service in the movement at that time.

On a previous occasion, I remember that a Deputy put down a motion or introduced a Private Bill to deal with another category of the same Force. While it may not be quite relevant to the present motion, I thought it was one that called for some sympathy and re-examination. It was in respect of that section of the same body of men who applied to the Government of Saorstát Éireann, as it was then known, and failed to get pensions. They did not qualify for pensions from the British Government: they fell between two stools. They had some organisation which was protesting and advocating further consideration of their case. I do not know if Deputy MacEoin actually had that marginal section who did not benefit in mind.

The qualification necessary then was that the applicant had to prove that he left the force in sympathy with the movement here and that he was actuated by no other motive and as a result failed to qualify for a pension from his original employer, the British Government. Some of these were very much borderline cases. They were not accepted by the British as qualifying on the ground that they did not remain and give loyal service.

General MacEoin

I am talking for those who proved their services. That is another day.

Mr. J. Brennan

Yes. I thought at first when I saw the motion on the Order Paper that it related to that particular category. Even if there were only a few who might not have got the benefit of the doubt in the right direction at the time, it would be a pity if they were left without some consideration. Perhaps Deputy MacEoin knows the numbers involved. No doubt the Minister will tell us when he speaks. The number must be small.

General MacEoin

And getting smaller.

Mr. J. Brennan

The numbers must be rather negligible and like most small bodies, they are not in a position to make their voices heard as loudly as would large organised pressure groups who usually assert themselves and bring pressure to bear in the right direction. I would be all the more sympathetic on that account. Where small organised bodies are not in a position to assert their claims as bigger, organised bodies can, they should be given certain consideration because of that and receive more sympathetic consideration. I would not go the whole way with the proposer of the motion, until I know the full facts of the case, and say that they were badly treated. There is a commitment or anyhow they were given an implied undertaking that they would not be treated in a worse manner than any other similar category.

General MacEoin

No, than the fellows who served on.

Mr. J. Brennan

I would not be prepared to accept that unless the Deputy gave me something more definite.

General MacEoin

We will have to get the circular. The Minister has that.

Mr. J. Brennan

I understand that an undertaking was implied or given perhaps definitely that they would be considered when categories of the same type were being considered. It is correct to say that they have received increases from time to time. Some people with whom I have come in contact seem to think that they are just getting the exact figure as on the day the pension was first granted.

General MacEoin

No.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am sure most people would be agreeable that they should be dealt with again. Whether present circumstances demand that they are now entitled to immediate consideration is another point. The Minister, as Deputies are aware, has legislation before the House in relation to pensions generally. I suppose nowadays when all sections of retired people realise that the general position in the country has improved, they all want more than their just slice of the cake. Human nature being what it is, we are all inclined to exaggerate our own case and to give the impression that we are the one victimised section in the community. Every section of pensioners is prone to make the same type of case; whether it is the pre-1950 national school teachers or some other section, they have the feeling they are the worst treated section.

It is a natural desire to take part in the general clamour for better pensions, wages or salaries. It has to be approached with a responsible attitude towards the whole overall position. I think the Minister would not be opposed to this section more than any other. I am speaking for myself but I feel I am expressing the views of everybody in the House when I say nobody would like it to be felt that there is any particular grudge against, or reason for victimising, this particular section. Certainly I would say that that is not the case. Any promises made should be honoured and I am sure they will be in this case, so far as they are justified. Whether the circumstances are such that they would call for any immediate or panic action now is another matter. I do not think such is the case. When we get the figures and examine them I think we will find that the amount these people are receiving is not too bad at all. They may be due to take part in another increase but I feel most of them have reached the stage when their responsibilities have virtually ceased and they all belong to an age group for whom dependants would hardly be a source of worry.

There was a time when they would have had dependants but this category has moved beyond that stage, like many other pensioners, and the same urgency is not involved or the same desperation as Deputy MacEoin tried to imply in moving the motion. Our attitude should be to make it known that we are not looking on these in any way as being stepchildren of the State's responsibility and that we wish to be as fair to them as to any other retired section of the community, whether they are retired members of our own police forces or any other retired section.

As I said, it would be interesting to know the numbers involved, the average pension paid in these cases and what increases they got at the various stages since they were first granted pensions. That would be a great help to us in making up our minds but off the cuff we can assure them that they are not being blackballed. They are looked upon as responsible citizens who played an important part at a critical time in the nation's history and they will not be left out when the occasion justifies giving an increase commensurate with increases given to similar categories.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

It has been known for some time in this House that Private Members' motions are taken from 6 to 7.30 p.m. It appears somewhat surprising then that the motion we are discussing now, No. 27, standing in the name of Deputy MacEoin, should have necessitated for its debate from the Government side of the House the urgent reading of a brief by the Minister for Finance. The Parliamentary Secretary who has just spoken has obviously done his best but neither he, nor I, nor you, Sir, now knows what stand he is taking and indeed if any of the few people affected by this motion were up in the Gallery, they would be no wiser now, having listened to the Parliamentary Secretary, than before this debate started.

Mr. Lenihan

Do not be trailing your coat now.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

He has assured them that they are not going to be blackballed—I should hope they will not—and that the Minister for Finance will not be any more opposed to them than he is opposed to other sections of the community. What do these clichés mean? They mean that outside, in some back room at the moment, the Minister for Finance is desperately reading up about the resigned and dismissed members of the RIC. Why is that? Fair notice has been given that this motion would be on the Order Paper.

Mr. J. Brennan

On a point of explanation, the Minister was not informed about this motion being taken until the offices of his Department had closed. The Deputy will concede that that was unusually short notice. It was with the consent of the Chief Whip of the chief Opposition Party that we were able to take it in place of another motion.

Mr. Corish

We have to give ten day's notice before any of our motions are taken.

Mr. J. Brennan

You never do it.

General MacEoin

There was no arrangement between the Whips. I came in to move my motion if the other motion was not moved. There was a motion on the Order Paper which should have been taken. If I were not here in the House to move my motion when the other motion was not moved, would my motion fall with the other one?

Mr. J. Brennan

Standing Orders provide for that. The Minister was taken unawares by having to take the motion after 5 o'clock when his Department had closed. Anybody who moved the motion would not be at the same inconvenience because I assume he had his brief prepared and could take the matter at short notice.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies are taking up Deputy O'Higgins's time and that is not fair to him.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Did anyone think seriously that Deputy Sherwin was going to move his motion? Everybody knew that when his motion was called, he would not be here.

Mr. Lenihan

That is most unjustifiable.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Where is Deputy Sherwin? We knew throughout the day that Deputy Sherwin would not be here to move any motion that might embarrass the Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not the point.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

We have here a motion proposed by Deputy MacEoin which has been spoken to by the Parliamentary Secretary who, apparently, had instructions to say something but at the same time to say nothing. He has carried out his instructions fully. It is true to say that this motion is one of the few that could be proposed in this House in respect of which no one can say there is any vote-catching involved. There are no votes in this motion. We could search all the constituencies in the country and we would be very fortunate to find any person to whom this motion would apply.

This motion is proposed by the one Deputy in the House who is fully entitled to move it, that is, Deputy MacEoin. It is moved by a Deputy who has not to depend on hearsay or on what he might be told, but who was part and parcel of the fight at the time. Deputy MacEoin's motion refers to a situation in which the ordinary people of this country were fighting for their freedom and he was one of those who, in those days, were prepared to put their lives and fortunes at hazard in the interests of this country. If he moves a motion of this kind, he is doing it out of regard for an undertaking given at the time and which it was expected would be fully honoured.

The RIC at the time were the residential police force of the British occupation. They functioned as the eyes and ears of the British Crown. Each one of them was an Irishman with his kith and kin in this country and of the majority of them it could be said that their hearts were in the right place. It was for that reason that the appeal was made to them on behalf of the Volunteers to leave the service of the Crown. The majority did not but many of them did, many who have since gone to their reward. It is true to say that those who resigned because they would no longer serve and those who were dismissed by the British authorities because their services were regarded as not satisfactory to the British Crown were promised that they would receive no less generous treatment than those who continued to serve.

That is the point at issue in this motion, if there is anything at issue at all. An undertaking was given at that time that those who left or were dismissed from the RIC would receive treatment which would be no less generous than that given to those who continued to serve. There are a few of them left. Deputy MacEoin did not mention figures and I do not want to hazard guesses. Apparently we will get some figures eventually from the Minister but there can be very few of them left. They were small in number when they resigned or were dismissed 41 years ago.

This motion directs the attention of this Parliament, which now operates as a result of the actions of Michael Collins, Seán MacEoin and others like them 41 years ago, to the fact that those who continued to serve with the RIC today enjoy from the British Crown a level of pension which is considerably higher than the pittance by way of pension paid to those who answered the call to resign or who were dismissed. I do not understand why, in the brief instructions given to the Parliamentary Secretary, he was not told to accept this motion. There can be very little in it.

The Parliamentary Secretary said that this motion does not have any urgency. There is no reason for immediate or panic action. That is always said in relation to those who cannot, by reason of their numbers or importance, qualify for the political description of being a pressure group. On small and dwindling pittances, these old men, small in numbers, may not have any influence in the political spectrum and, therefore, in relation to them, it can apparently be said that there is no urgency, no need for immediate or panic action. I do not know that that is fair. Many of these men are now living on borrowed time. They have long passed their three score years and ten and, however long is left to them, it cannot be so very long really. While the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance may say there is no urgency in regard to them, to them there is burning urgency. Each week and each month and each year brings them nearer to the end. For many of them, the desideratum now is to be able to die leaving some little pittance behind them. Surely it is not too much to ask the Government to regard a motion of this kind as meriting some measure of urgency?

The Parliamentary Secretary also referred to the general clamour now arising for better conditions, better pay, and so on. For whatever reasons such general clamour may exist, it is true to say that a demand for better conditions is felt more vividly and more urgently by those who have to exist on pensions, whether they be RIC pensions or other pensions; they are generally the groups that are ground between the upper and the nether millstone. They have to exist on a measure of money payment that was organised and defined many years before. They have to carry that pension into a situation in which real money values are dropping. For a pensioner—an RIC pensioner or any other pensioner—a time of rising prices and rising costs is a very fearful period, There, again, is the measure of urgency. There is urgency in relation to those few people not only because they may not have so long more to survive but also because there is at the moment a steep drop in the real value of the money they are receiving.

I would suggest sincerely to the Government, to the Minister for Finance, to all associated with this motion, that in this month and at this time of the year, it would be a magnificent gesture to the Deputy who proposed this motion, to those affected by the motion, if now, 41 years after, on behalf of General Michael Collins and the men who fought the War of Independence, we were to recognise the debt we owe to those who reacted to the appeal made amongst the forces of the Crown at that time and accord to them such an increase in their pensions that, in the autumn and winter of their lives, they can feel they have not been less generously treated than those who preferred to continue to serve the British forces until eventually the power of Britain was broken in the land.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I was quite impressed by Deputy T.F. O'Higgins in his plea. We, on this side of the House, are of course most anxious to increase pensions. I endorse everything the Deputy said about those members of the RIC who co-operated with the Irish Republican Army. I am at a loss for words to pay these men the compliment they deserve. They were real soldiers and they contributed in no small measure towards achieving the freedom of this country. It was pleasant to listen to Deputy O'Higgins making his plea on behalf of these men. Of course, only a very short time ago——

Mr. Corish

Here is the rub.

Mr. T. Lynch

Now it is coming.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Only a few short months ago, this side of the House was anxious to give an increase to all pensioners, RIC and everyone else. Believe it or not, Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy MacEoin voted against that increase.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Do not be absurd.

Mr. P.J. Burke

They voted against the increase.

General MacEoin

The Deputy had better go out and get another brief. He is talking from the wrong brief.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Deputy voted against the bona fide publicans.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I am anxious everybody's pension should be increased and I am prepared to vote for increases. I am not prepared to pay lipservice as Deputies on the other side of the House pay lipservice.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Deputy has paid nothing but lipservice all his life.

Mr. P.J. Burke

I must say I am tired of this lipservice after 20 years.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

The Deputy must be listening to himself.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Anything I believe in I will follow through to the bitter end.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Deputy did not follow through the bona fide publicans. The Deputy gave them the “works”.

Mr. P.J. Burke

There are thousands of pensioners in the country. I am not talking now about the old age pensioners. I discussed them with Deputy Lynch the other night.

Mr. T. Lynch

Yes, and I put the Deputy wise.

Mr. P.J. Burke

When a motion is proposed and seconded, I expect that those who propose it will go the whole hog and be prepared to vote for the money to do the job.

Mr. T. Lynch

We will.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We have already given pensioners an increase and they will get a further increase after January.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would they not want it, considering what the Deputy and his Party have done with the cost of living?

Mr. P.J. Burke

That is more of the tripe we always hear here. If we had a little more sincerity so far as these motions are concerned, we would achieve something. The Old IRA men got an increase as a result of our voting for the Budget. I give Deputy MacEoin credit for being one of Ireland's best soldiers. I am sorry, however, that my old friend, Deputy MacEoin, voted against the Old IRA men getting an increase. I never thought I would see my old friend and colleague doing that.

General MacEoin

I never thought I would see the Deputy going into the Lobby voting against the motion.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Not alone this year but last year, Deputy MacEoin voted against it. We gave two increases, and there is another increase coming up for them now.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is repeating himself.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Deputy Lynch does not want anybody to get anything. So long as he shakes his feathers in the House and says a few words, everything is all right.

Mr. T. Lynch

God help you with shaking feathers.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We are all behind this. We have voted for the increase already. They are getting a number of increases as a result of our vote for the Budget. If we asked for this increase tomorrow and if it meant we had to put a little more on some commodity to find the money, the first persons who would be against it would be Deputy MacEoin, Deputy O'Higgins and Deputy Lynch. They expect us to wave a magic wand and get the money without any trouble.

Mr. Corish

Hamlet is not here yet. You cannot congratulate the Minister until he comes.

Mr. P.J. Burke

My old friend, Deputy Corish, voted against these increases, too.

Mr. Corish

The Deputy voted against social welfare increases on two occasions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Burke must come to the motion.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins

Has Deputy Burke any old friend in the Chair at all?

Mr. T. Lynch

His old friends in the bona fide trade were in the Gallery and he shot them all down.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Lynch ought to restrain himself.

Mr. T. Lynch

It is hard, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

Well, the Deputy should do something hard and restrain himself. I will not argue with him. He must restrain himself and maintain order.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Some day I have time, I shall discuss the publicans at great length with Deputy Lynch.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will either discuss the motion or resume his seat.

Mr. P.J. Burke

We are all in favour of the motion. We voted for an increase for these people already. I shall finish on the most charitable note I can. I claim the members of the Opposition who put down this motion are not sincere.

Mr. McLaughlin

I wish to support the motion. On my rounds I meet many of these people. As Deputy O'Higgins said, they are few and are becoming fewer every day. Those of them who are left are disappointed men. They played an important part in the War of Independence. Promises were made to them. Some of them came out and were living on small holdings. Since then all down the years, they have been looking for an increase.

As Deputy MacEoin pointed out, they were asked to resign. It was not an easy thing for married men to decide to give up what was regarded in those days as a good job. They were asked to resign by men like Deputy MacEoin and General Michael Collins. They were also asked to resign by their own people at home. In order to prove themselves genuine Irishmen many of them came out in favour of the IRA. Others remained on and played an even more important part in doing so. Had it not been for those men, I fail to see how the War of Independence could have been brought to a successful conclusion.

Only last week I wrote to the Minister about a man from Sligo town. This man is one of three brothers who resigned in support of the IRA. I think he got a very small allowance. He worked while he was able and raised his family. Now he is unable to work any longer, he asked the Minister on a few occasions for an increase, but the reply has not been very satisfactory. I would ask the Minister to avail of this opportunity to make a note of that case. What a difference it would have made to our nearest and dearest if those people had not co-operated in those dark and evil days. What a difference there would have been if the leaders were not in a position to get the information these people gave. It is hard to see how otherwise the leaders could have hoped to win that great fight.

Those people should get every consideration. The majority of them have now grown old, but let us not forget that some of them are still active men, hoping to benefit from the increases everybody is getting. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach mentioned that they felt they should be entitled to ask for a round the same as everybody else. The time has come when these people are forced to ask for a rise. Prices are soaring every day and their petty allowances cannot keep up with them and give any measure of comfort. In many cases their families have now married and they find themselves living on their own in rural areas. After a hard life, they are living in retirement. They contributed generously to the cause by resigning, and they merit our consideration. For that reason I sincerely ask the Minister to give as quickly as possible something worth while to these men and their dependants.

Mr. S. Flanagan

I do not understand why this motion should have occupied so much of the time of the House. There is a story told that in 1923 when the representatives of the Revenue Commissioners here were over in London to discuss a double taxation agreement with the then Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Winston Churchill, he appeared to take very little interest in the protracted and complicated discussions going on in his presence between his advisers and the Irish representatives. Various difficulties were put up against the Irish arguments by the British counterparts. In a state of some desperation, one of the Irish representatives turned to the Chancellor and said: "Well, sir, what do you think about our scheme?" He said: "I think you have made an unanswerable case" and forthwith directed the meeting to end and the agreement be drawn up on the lines suggested by the representatives of this country. One can go further and say that that double taxation agreement, in essence, still stands and worked very well in its lifetime.

I think the case here is equally unanswerable and, of course, while we enjoyed the asides from various parts of the House during Deputy Burke's speech, he made it clear that he fully supported the motion. I remember some ten or 11 years ago making what I very shortly afterwards realised was an uncharitable and unfair speech in regard to the claims of the pre-1950 retired teachers. It is a speech I regretted afterwards and I do not mind saying that now.

It occurs to me that at that time and even now there is general reluctance on the part of Governments to yield to the claims of smaller groups of pensioners. Certainly in recent years, there has been more charity shown in that direction but I hope there will be further evidence of that charity in the acceptance of this motion. Whether the Minister can go as far as the motion suggests, which is that the retired and dismissed members of the RIC here should be given parity with those who continued in the service and who are paid by the British, is something I do not know because I have not the figures available. What is plain is that on the basis of their present pensions they are bound to find it difficult to live and, therefore, they are entitled to a substantial improvement in their pensions. The general level of pensions here is undoubtedly lower than it is across the Channel. The reasons for that, I suppose, are that our economy has fewer people to sustain the demands of the various pension groups than theirs has. Nevertheless, we should in this instance make whatever increase we can available to those now very few people.

It do not think it necessary to go back over the history of what happened 41 years ago except that it is relevant that the outlook of those who retired, or by their activity had themselves dismissed, was a patriotic one, and that should be remembered. In the light of that, I do not see why the debate should be prolonged, other than that we seem to have done a lot of work today and some people feel we should not go home too early. That appears to me to be the only reason why Deputies introduced extraneous subjects into what is after all a very simple, a very narrow issue. For the reasons that have been stated by others as well as by myself and, particularly, for the reason that these people cannot exert pressure, like others in the pensioner class who cannot exercise pressure, they should be treated with as much charity as possible.

Mr. Corish

We are in no different position from the Minister and the two Parliamentary Secretaries who did not expect this motion to come up tonight. I do not think it is entirely true to say that much of the talk that has gone on here over the past hour or so is to kill time. Even if the motion were finished, we would still have to continue until halfpast ten. Furthermore, we are in Private Members' Time and some other motion would come up to be dealt with until 7.30 p.m. However, there must be hope for those people who are mentioned in this motion in view of the calm and objective way in which it has been treated, particularly by Deputy Seán Flanagan whose approach was objective and who intervenes in most discussions in this House in an objective and honest way.

This question of better treatment of resigned and dismissed members is one that has been raised in the House ever since I became a member. There still does not seem to be any real move to grant to these people parity in their pensions, that is, parity with their comrades who continued in the service and who received far better pensions. They resigned or were dismissed because of their association with the new Irish State. It is a fact, as far as I know, that they were promised they would be treated not less generously than those who continued on in the force. Because they are declining in numbers, the time is now opportune to give them parity as was promised to them by the then leaders, including General Collins.

We seem to be playing Hamlet without the prince on this motion. The Minister for Finance is not here and only he can give us figures to indicate the extent of this problem, what it would cost to give these men the parity they were promised. I have supported this proposal for many years. Deputy P.J. Burke's argument as to where we are to get the money for this will, of course, arise once more on the Adjournment Debate tomorrow. It is not an aspect that we can discuss fully during the time allowed us for private Members' Business. I do not think anybody wants to make political capital out of this; in fact there is none in it. I am sure, therefore, that when the Minister becomes aware of the atmosphere in which this motion has been discussed, he will treat the matter sympathetically.

Mr. Davern

I am not altogether in agreement with some of the statements made. Somebody said the IRA would not have succeeded unless the RIC men had resigned. I would not like to go quite so far. I have no doubt the Irish Republican Army would have won anyway. We appreciated what those men did after 1916, after 1917 and again after 1918 when Dáil Éireann was established. They had patriotic motives and they resigned out of sympathy for our cause. They resigned from that infernal machine created here by the British and known as the RIC. I give all credit to them but I shall not give them credit to the extent of saying that it was they who won the War of Independence and not the soldiers of the Irish Republican Army.

This has been a very vexed question during the past 40 years. We have had men who served up to the day when the RIC was disbanded but who gave unstinted support and sympathy to the struggle for independence. They are very often forgotten. Many of them were in the invidious position of being between two fires, so to speak. Many of those men have gone and I have the greatest respect for them. I am afraid they have got very little gratitude. Some of them were given testimonials certifying they had given service to the nation but that is all they ever got. Many of them were decried as "peelers" and so on and they had to bear that brand, though they were in fact very good Irishmen.

I know that many of the men who resigned from the RIC did so for patriotic reasons. I also know that had they continued to serve at the time, their remuneration would have been substantially higher. I should like to say that I do not for a moment begrudge them anything the State can give them. They answered the call at a very critical period in our history. A large number of them were never given recognition for that. We lost touch with many of them and were therefore unable to give them even a certificate of recognition.

It is very easy to talk about that struggle now. I can tell Deputies it was not any bed of feathers. Many of the RIC men who resigned in sympathy with the fight for independence are not now known and may go to their graves without the recognition they so richly deserved. I should, therefore, like to suggest that the Government set up some sort of bureau, attached either to the Army or the Garda Síochána, in an effort to get in touch with those people and afford them some sort of recognition for their service to the nation. I can give an example of a sergeant, a native of Kerry, who offered us his barracks on more than one occasion but our superior at GHQ said that a barracks attacked was better than a barracks taken. I think myself we should have taken that barracks. We could have done so at the time. That sergeant knew the game was up; he knew the Black and Tans were on to him and he made it a condition of handing over the barracks that he would be accepted for active service. Unfortunately, he did not get the opportunity. He was bundled into a lorry and I have never heard of him since, although I have tried my best to find out his whereabouts.

I come from a constituency where there are very few former members of the RIC who resigned at that time. We never had many men in that police force in County Tipperary, but we are making up for it now in the Garda Síochána. If the money can be made available, I agree these men should be given the recognition the motion seeks to give them. If we want to give them this parity and if that means extra taxation, we should not shirk that duty. We should be prepared to stand up here and say these men should be given parity even if it means imposing extra taxation.

I should like, however, to point out that there are many IRA men who are in an even worse position, who did not get even a small pension in recognition of their service, which was of a military nature. I hope we should be able to do something for those men during the lifetime of the present Dáil. I do not know what is in the Minister's mind regarding this motion. There are many demands at present and it is scarcely an opportune time to seek increases. Yet, it will not cost a lot and in his wisdom, I should like the Minister to give full consideration to this motion and when doing so, also to consider many of the old IRA men who have not been treated as well as they should, for the same reason as in the case of the old RIC people who resigned, because they had not sufficient certification.

Personally, I hope the Minister will see his way to do all he can for them and give them some extra comfort to brighten the winter of their lives. They would appreciate it, I am sure. As has been said, many who continued to serve have good pensions from the British Government and it can be very disconcerting to men such as those we are discussing now to see those who remained on and did their worst against us living in comfort while those who answered the call and gave up their service when perhaps their future was promising are finding it hard to make ends meet. They made a sacrifice and if they do not apply for, or get, a penny I am certain they are happy that, having given their service to the country like many others, they have lived to see the results freedom has brought.

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

Ní h-eol domsa cad é an dearcadh atá ag an Aire Airgeadais ar an rún tairiscinte seo ach ba mhaith liom iarraidh air glacadh leis agus cothrom na Féinne a thabhairt dona fir a thréig seirbhís Sheáin Bhuí agus a chuir a n-anamacha i gcontabhairt i seirbhís Róisín Cathach Dubh. Bhíodar le fáil in gach contae in Éirinn agus d'fhreagraíodar an ghairm an chéad lá. Is ait liom nár thug aon Rialtas a bhí ann le dachad bliain anuas cothrom na Féinne dóibh. Cuimhnimís ar an rud a tharla thíos i gCiarraí nuair do thug oifigeach Ghallda ordú dhóibh Éireannach ar bith a lámhach agus nár fiafraíodh díobh cé acu a bhí baint acu le hArm na Poblachta ná a mhalairt. Cad a dhein na fir a bhí ós a comhair ansan? Do chaitheadar na gunnaí uathu: do chaitheadar an éide agus na piléir uatha agus chloíodar lena ndúchas. Bhí cuid de na daoine a thug cúl le sheirbhís Shasana pósta agus clann acu. Ní raibh a fhios acu cá bhféadfaidís greim a mbéal d'fháil an lá a bhí chugainn ach mar sin féin níor loiceadar ar a dtír. Ní dóigh liom go dtógfadh sé suim mhor airgid chun an oiread céanna a thabhairt dóibh in aghaidh na bliana agus atá acu ó Sheirbhís na nGall. Dá bhrí sin, iarraim go muiníneach ar an Aire féachaint isteach sa scéal agus an t-olc do leigheas. Ní mall an mhaith aon uair agus, dá bhrí sin, iarraim arís ar an Aire cothrom na Féinne a thabhairt don caolchuid díobh atá fós ann.

Mr. Carter

I am not too clear as to what section of the resigned and dismissed RIC men Deputy MacEoin refers in this motion. For a long time in this House, questions were raised and motions put down on this matter. I also note as a strange phenomenon that Deputy MacEoin when in Opposition is always very fond of advocating increases in pensions and pay for those in the public service. Admittedly, he spends a good deal of his time in Opposition but he had a chance in this House as Minister for Defence and again as Minister for Justice and he did nothing whatever for the men for whom he now speaks.

As far back as July 14, 1948, the late Deputy Cowan raised the matter here, as reported at column 268 of volume 112 of the Official Report. The Minister responsible then was Deputy McGilligan and the late Deputy had raised the question of these dismissed and resigned RIC men who, he said, had resigned in 1920 at the call of Dáil Éireann. Deputy McGilligan then said that the provisions of the Superannuation Act, 1923, applied to them and that the matter was under examination. That was some time ago. Again, on 27th April, 1949, the matter was also raised and the query was: what was being done for these men? In his reply, Deputy McGilligan coupled them with members of the public service in general and again said that the matter was under active consideration.

Debate adjourned.