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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Feb 1964

Vol. 207 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 23—Office of the Minister for Justice.

I move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Justice, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, including certain Grants-in-Aid; and of the Public Record Office, and of the Keeper of State Papers and for the purchase of Historical Documents, etc.

I also move:

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £1,014,100 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1964, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Garda Síochána including Pensions, etc., and for payments of compensation and other expenses arising out of service in the Local Security Force.

In order to regularise the position, I want to point out that there is only one motion before the House. The Minister moved two motions. The discussion can take place on the first motion.

I will unmove the second motion, if that will make the Ceann Comhairle happy.

There can be only one motion before the House. We can discuss the two on the one motion.

The second motion can be formally moved afterwards.

Consider the second motion as unmoved at this stage.

As Deputies are aware, the main Estimates for the six Votes for which I am responsible were passed without discussion before the summer recess, and the Supplementary Estimate which I have moved for the Office of the Minister for Justice is really a token Vote to facilitate an Estimates debate on my Department's various services. I propose, therefore, to deal with the services as a group in my introductory speech so that, as in previous years, there may be one general discussion—without, of course, prejudicing the right of any Deputy to raise any particular point. The Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána will also be covered by the general discussion.

The total Estimate for all the Votes for which I am responsible, including the token Vote for my Office and the Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána is £8,662,400, an increase of £1,118,690 over the amount estimated for the year 1962/63. Apart from the Supplementary Estimate for the Garda Síochána, which I shall deal with later, the increase is due principally to some extra staff in the Office of the Minister for Justice; to the larger provision which continues to be required for Garda pensions, as the older members of the Force retire: and to building improvements in the prisons.

As we are already in the second half of the present financial year, the House will bear with me if, in dealing with the year ended 31st March last, I touch also on developments subsequent to that date. The general picture is one of progress, not only in carrying out what I may call the Department's traditional administrative functions, but in developing new services and in the making of improved arrangements for the prompt and efficient discharge of the Department's work. The increased staff for which provision is made in the Estimate for the Office of the Minister for Justice has been allocated to the various sections of the Department as required.

Arrangements, now in the final stages, for the transfer of the Garda Síochána Training Centre to Templemore, have involved a good deal of work in the Department, which has also been closely concerned with the disposal, under the Garda Conciliation and Arbitration Scheme, of a major pay claim brought on behalf of ranks up to chief superintendent. A Committee which I set up to consider the subject of penal reform has already made quite a number of valuable recommendations, many of which have already been not only approved but put into effect. The staff engaged on the law reform programme continues to gather momentum, and is participating to an increased extent in the legal affairs of a number of international organisations.

Mention of international contacts in legal matters would not be complete without a reference, which I am very happy to make, to the invitation generously extended to me by the German Government to visit that country with a party of Irish jurists to study legal developments and the functioning of legal institutions in that country. The visit took place in September-October last year and was an interesting and stimulating experience for the participants. I should like to take this opportunity to express publicly to the German Federal Republic and its distinguished Minister for Justice my appreciation and gratitude for their generosity and hospitality.

While on the subject of international contacts, I should like to tell the House that the Third Conference of the European Ministers for Justice will be held in Dublin next May. This conference which will be held under the auspices of the Council of Europe is the third in a series of such Conferences, the other two, which I attended, having been held in Paris and Rome. On the occasion of the last Conference in Rome in October of 1962, I extended an invitation from the Irish Government to hold the next Conference in Dublin, and this was unanimously accepted. About 15 countries participate in this Conference, which is concerned with a wide variety of legal matters, such as penal reform, criminology and international law. It is, therefore, an institution of very great importance and the Government and I are gratified that Dublin should be chosen as the venue for this year's conference.

On the legislative side, a fair amount of progress was again made and a number of Bills were enacted into law; these were the Statute Law Revision Bill, the Official Secrets Bill and the Hotel Proprietors Bill. A good deal of work has been going on simultaneously on the preparation of legislation to deal with registration of titles, a comprehensive, highly technical measure; a Bill to amend the law relating to extradition; a Guardianship of Infants Bill; a Bill to consolidate and amend the law relating to pawnbroking; a Bill to give effect to the Government's decision to abolish capital punishment except in certain circumstances; an amendment of the Adoption Act, 1952, in minor respects; an amendment of the Firearms Act, 1925, to provide for the control of air guns in the hands of young people; and a Bill to deal with the Administration of Estates and Wills.

As Deputies are no doubt aware, Parliamentary Bills are like icebergs in that less than one-fifth of the work put into their structure appears above the surface: a great deal of consultation goes on between the promoting Department and the various interests involved, with experts on the points of law at issue, and then the Minister and Government in turn have to immerse themselves in the intricacies and decide on policy and major issues. I am mentioning this in passing, as an explanation of what would appear to be the comparatively slow progress of some measures which I had hoped would have been dealt with in the House before now.

Apart from the preparation of legislation, my Department has been concerned in the operation of several Committees of Inquiry. There are, for instance, the Courts Committee which is enquiring into practice and procedure in the Courts, a Bankruptcy Committee, a Ground Rents Committee, an Inter-Departmental Committee examining the law relating to compensation for malicious injuries and an Inter-Departmental Committee enquiring into penal reform.

Last year I mentioned that the indictable crime figures for the year ended 30th September, 1961, were a little lower than the preceding year, the actual figures being 15,375 in 1960 and 14,818 in 1961. The 1962 figures show a small increase, the figure being 15,307, which is substantially the same as two years ago. Provisional figures for the nine months ended 30th June, 1963, however, show a further and fairly substantial upward trend, but the figures are still running well below the 1959 figure of 17,865.

There has been a continuing increase in housebreakings since 1960, the figure for 1962 being 3,466, as against 3,186 in 1961 and 2,982 in 1960. Provisional figures for the period 1st October, 1962, to 30th June, 1963, show a further increase, and when final figures are in, it is not unlikely that they will show that the 1959 figure of 3,824 has been surpassed in the year ended 30th September, 1963. By comparison with other countries, these figures are low and are not such as to constitute any really serious crime problem for the community. Even so, the trend, in the case of crimes of this type, that is, breaking and entering, has been in the wrong direction and the Garda Síochána have been directing special attention to these crimes, with particular emphasis on precautionary measures.

As is to be expected, the main problem arises in Dublin, and for this reason we have established in Dublin a special Crime Preventive Unit in the charge of an inspector. Some months ago a sergeant from each of the seven districts in Dublin was temporarily assigned to assist this unit in their work of surveying business premises and advising the owners of ways and means of improving security arrangements. Outside Dublin, the same work is done by the Garda Síochána in the course of their ordinary duties, and there again the notice of all ranks was recently directed to the value of this work, and the need to give special attention to it.

As I need hardly say, measures of this kind could achieve nothing without the co-operation and goodwill of the owners of premises. Those are usually forthcoming. The Gardaí for their part, have to have regard to the difficulties facing the owners of premises and to realise that there is a limit beyond which the owners cannot reasonably be expected to go in the way of incurring expense on security measures. However, it very often happens that the security of a particular premises can be greatly improved by a very small expenditure, which the owner gladly undertakes when his attention is drawn to the need for it.

The overall detection rate in 1962 was 66 per cent, which happens to be exactly the same as in the preceding year. In Dublin it was 47 per cent and outside Dublin 85 per cent. These figures, I may say, are regarded as excellent in police circles and compare very favourably with those of other countries, in comparable conditions. This applies both to the Dublin figures and the others. The position in regard to the summary offences is little changed from the previous year. The total number of offences for which proceedings were instituted was 105,189, as compared with 104,057 in 1961. The number of prosecutions for road traffic offences was 77,203; the figure for 1961 was 77,834.

As Deputies are aware, the fines-on-the-spot scheme came into operation in Dublin on 1st April, 1963, coinciding with the coming into operation of the new traffic bye-laws. It seems to be working very well.

The good work of the Adoption Board continues. They made 699 adoption orders in 1962, approximately 150 more than in the preceding year, of which 339 were in respect of boys and 360 in respect of girls. The Board normally sits in Dublin, but to facilitate adopters, they held sittings during the year in Cork, Limerick, Waterford, Galway, Wexford, Sligo and Letterkenny. As the House is aware, an amending Bill which will considerably facilitate the work of the Adoption Board and which makes a number of desirable improvements in the system has been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

At the end of 1962, 3,177 aliens were registered, i.e. they were residing here for periods of three months or more. The corresponding figure for the end of 1961 was 3,140. Apart from aliens who came here from Britain, over 47,000 aliens landed in the State during the year, as compared with about 43,000 in 1961. Of these, of course, the great majority are visitors, and indeed there has been no significant change in the level of our resident alien population for many years. Eighty-one persons were naturalised in 1962.

Twelve hundred and twenty-five films were examined by the Film Censor in 1962, of which 1,007 were passed (two on appeal) and 192 were passed with cuts (one on appeal). Twenty-six films were rejected. The total footage examined was over 3,300,300, a drop of about 400,000 feet on the previous year.

The Censorship of Publications Board examined 569 books and 33 periodicals in 1962. Of these, 36 books were examined as a result of formal complaints and 533 were examined on reference from the customs authorities. The Board made 389 Prohibition Orders in respect of books and 26 in respect of periodical publications. Four of the books had been the subject of Prohibition Orders in earlier years, but, for technical reasons, it was necessary to make repeat Orders in respect of them. There were five appeals in respect of periodical publications, one of which was allowed.

Comhairle na Mire Gaile awarded 38 certificates of bravery.

The Public Record Office continued to discharge its regular functions during the year, and received for safe keeping the usual batches of documents transferred from the offices of the various courts, that is to say, documents and records of cases disposed of for over 20 years. In addition to documents from official sources, the office has in the past year received from private citizens presentations of a number of testamentary and other documents. These documents are, for the most part, wills and papers of that kind which have served their original purpose, and are presented by solicitors and others to the Public Record Office, where they can be preserved for the future and may be of importance for historical research purposes. I regard such activity as highly commendable and would like to encourage persons having in their possession old documents which are no longer required for legal purposes but which may be of historical interest to present them to the Public Record Office. Donors may get copies of these documents free of charge at any time, and their generosity will be recorded in due course in the reports of the Public Record Office. If I might indicate the acquisitions of this kind which are particularly desirable, I would mention deeds over 200 years old, maps other than those emanating from the Ordnance Survey, rentals over 100 years old and briefs and abstracts of title containing early genealogical information.

Before I leave the subject of the Public Record Office, I might mention also that, among the documents received for keeping during the year were a number of old prison registers. While these, because of the nature of their contents are not ordinarily made available to the public for inspection, I shall be prepared to consider applications from persons having bona fide reasons, for special permission to see them.

Last year I referred to the new provision which had been made in the Vote for the Office of the Minister for Justice to subsidise the preparation and publication of legal text books. This scheme is operated by the Incorporated Council for Law Reporting with financial and other assistance from my Department. The preparation of legal textbooks dealing with the law of this country is a slow and tedious process, but is becoming of increasing importance according as developments in the field of law reform here make textbooks prepared elsewhere, for use outside the country, progressively less suitable and less accurate for use by Irish practitioners and students.

I am glad to record that the first book prepared under my Department's scheme—a textbook on the administration of estates—made its appearance in the bookshops during the summer. While I would not be justified in going so far as to assert "tosnú maith, leath no hoibre", the new book certainly represents a good start on which the Incorporated Council for Law Reporting is to be congratulated. Now that the first furrow has been broken, we can look forward to quicker progress in this field, which is both extensive and important.

I now pass on to the next Vote, No. 24, that for the Garda Síochána. Taking the figures in the original Estimate, £6,605,150, together with those in the Supplementary Estimate, £1,014,100, the total expenditure for the current year is estimated at £7,619,250, which shows a net increase of £1,077,960 on the Estimate for last year. Virtually the full amount of the increase—in fact an increase of over £1 million—arises in the subheads dealing with the salaries, pensions and allowances of members of the Garda Síochána. This results from the implementation by the Government of the findings of the Chairman of the Garda Síochána Arbitration Board on claims made by the Garda Síochána Representative Bodies for higher pay. The estimated cost of implementing the award in respect of the current year is £787,000 for pay; an additional £115,000 will be required to cover the period from 9th January, 1963, to 31st March, 1963, in the case of Guards and from 15th January, 1963, to 31st March, 1963, in respect of inspectors, station sergeants and sergeants. The increase in pay will also be reflected in an estimated additional expenditure of £102,100 in respect of pensions, gratuities, etc., of members of the Garda Síochána. The pension provision in the original Estimate shows an increase of £204,805 on last year's figure; this follows from an increase in the number of pensioners and from increases in pensions approved by the Minister for Finance with effect from 1st August, 1962.

Were it not for a reduction in the Garda strength, for which provision is made, with a consequential reduction in the cost of clothing and equipment, and also a saving under the heading of transport, the net increase in the Estimate would be considerably greater.

Once again I am glad to pay tribute to all ranks of the Force for the manner in which they carried out their duties during the year. The pleasant and efficient manner in which they carried out their special tasks during President Kennedy's visit was commented upon favourably by many members of the public and earned the force the enthusiastic commendation of our country's very distinguished visitor. The crime position in the country, though not by any means such as to encourage complacency, is nevertheless relatively better than in any country we know of. That is, in great measure, due to the zeal and efficiency of the Force.

Deputies are already aware of the efforts being made to revive sport and athletics in the Garda Síochána. The Central Committee, known as An Coiste Siamsa, is doing excellent work in this regard. I feel I ought to mention that every Garda recruit is now given lessons in swimming and life-saving. We are indebted to Messrs. Arthur Guinness & Co. for so generously placing at the disposal of the Force for this purpose their magnificent swimming pool. When recruits leave the Depot, they are encouraged to carry on swimming and life-saving courses and the Red Cross Society has undertaken to supply instructors and to provide groups with films for instruction purposes.

Representations are frequently made against proposals to close down stations or reduce them to one-man units. I should like to assure Deputies that these proposals, which fall to be approved by me personally, arise only in cases where, by reason of the absence of crime, the sparsity of population, etc., I am satisfied that such reductions can be made without detriment to police efficiency. In the calendar year, 1962, seven stations were closed and four reduced to one-man units.

I now come to a subject which is of great importance to the welfare of the Force, namely, the provision of suitable accommodation. I am glad to be able to say that the progress which I reported to the House last December is being maintained. At present, work is in progress on the erection of 23 stations outside Dublin. A new station at Cabra was opened at the beginning of October. Another new station at Crumlin is expected to be ready for occupation by the end of this year. In addition, it is proposed to provide new stations at Store Street, Rathmines, Terenure, Raheny, Dundrum, Coolock, Clondalkin and Ballyfermot and sites have been either acquired or are in course of negotiation for about 80 country stations. An ambitious programme for the building of houses for Gardaí by the National Building Agency is now getting into top gear. During the past year 30 new houses for married members have been provided and work is in progress on 130 houses.

The new Garda training centre at Templemore is nearing completion and I expect that the transfer will take place very shortly. The new training centre will contain all modern facilities for the accommodation and training of recruits, while provision has also been made for the holding of higher training courses. Excellent provision has been made for the recreational needs of trainees—there will be a sportsfield with two pitches, three handball alleys, one of which will be roofed and lighted and two basketball courts. A new gymnasium is being provided and there will be a separate large recreational hall. Reading rooms, lounges with facilities for light refreshments, and a billiards room will also be provided. A feature of the new training centre will be a covered-in heated swimming pool. This will ensure that the excellent work in connection with swimming and life-saving instruction to recruits at present being carried out in Dublin will be continued and extended in Templemore, and that in time the force will be in a position to make a very worthwhile contribution to reducing the toll of death by drowning. Further, as young Gardaí are encouraged to partake in the various activities of the community in which they live, it is reasonable to expect that the enthusiasm for swimming and lifesaving inculcated during training will lead them to give a hand on a voluntary basis to swimming clubs in the matter of training the young men and women of the country to become competent in swimming and lifesaving. This development will also be valuable in reducing deaths from drowning, and will, I feel sure, commend itself to all members of the House and the public generally. It is my intention also that this new pool at Templemore will be available to suitable organisations and groups in the surrounding counties for the promotion of swimming and life-saving.

Vote No. 25 is the Vote for prisons. The Estimate, at £316,720 net, is £33,480 more than last year's. The biggest increase, £25,221, is to be found in the subhead which deals with prison services, maintenance, etc.

Structural repairs and alterations to all the prison buildings, which are over 100 years old, have become necessary in order to provide institutions of reasonably modern standards. Consequently an extensive building programme has been planned, part of which is to be carried out this year at an estimated cost of £37,000. This year's works include structural alterations to existing buildings to provide for the segregation at work, exercise and recreation of prisoners selected for the corrective training unit at Mountjoy, and the establishment of a 20-bed hospital unit at Mountjoy for adult prisoners requiring psychiatric hospitalisation. I already mentioned in my speech on the Estimates for 1962-63 that the establishment of these units and the training of personnel to man them at Mountjoy Prison had been recommended by the inter-Departmental Committee set up to inquire into the methods for the prevention of crime and the treatment of offenders. Under the same subhead provision has been made for the installation of new boilers at Portlaoise, an improved issue of clothing to male and female prisoners, improved accommodation and appointments for officers' quarters and replacement of bedding and furniture in prisoners' cells. Also, a modern electrical baking unit is being installed in Mountjoy in replacement of the old turf-fired ovens which have outlived their usefulness.

It will be noted that the provision for victualling has been increased by about £1,800. This additional amount is due in part to increased victualling costs but it is provided mainly because, at the time the Estimate was being prepared, trends in relation to the numbers of prisoners indicated an increase in the number of remand and trial cases that were being dealt with by sentence rather than by discharge, suspension or probation and, also, a tendency on the part of the courts to impose longer sentences. While it is anticipated, therefore, that the daily average prison population will go up it is not expected that the total number of persons committed in custody during this year will show any appreciable variation. Last year the total number of persons committed to prisons during the year was 2,438, 2,124 males and 304 females. The number of youths committed by the courts direct to St. Patrick's Institution was 325. The daily average population was 490, as against 447 in 1961, which was inclusive of an average of 142 juveniles in St. Patrick's.

The large scale building programme in hands and the changes in methods of treatment of offenders have, of course, called for the creation of additional posts of supervisory officers, medical orderlies, disciplinary and trades officers, and the necessary pay provision has been made in subhead A of the Vote. The sum of £2,000 in that subhead for additional assistance is intended to cover the appointment of two welfare officers as well as expenditure in relation to medical consultant services and other possible outlay arising out of the Committee's recommendations, to whose work I will now refer.

In connection with the re-examination of the penal system the House is aware that in September, 1962, I set up an inter-Departmental Committee with the following terms of reference:

To inquire into the present methods for the prevention of crime and the treatment of offenders, giving attention, in particular, to the following matters:—

(a) juvenile delinquency

(b) the probation system

(c) the institutional treatment of offenders and their after-care,

and to recommend such changes in the law and practice as the Committee considers desirable and practicable.

The House would, I am sure, like to know something about what the committee has been doing and whether any changes have been made as a result of its deliberations. I have deliberately kept the committee a small body: it has a single representative from each of the four Government Departments concerned — Education, Health, Industry and Commerce and Justice— under the Chairmanship of the Secretary of my Department and staffed by a secretary also from my Department. The committee itself, and the working parties which it has formed, have had several discussions and interviews with members of the judiciary, the clergy, the Garda authorities, Governors of prisons and managers of institutions to which persons are sentenced or committed, probation officers, doctors including psychiatrists, sociologists, social workers, representatives of employers' organisations, of trade unions and of miscellaneous groups interested in youth welfare. Members of the Committee have inspected our prisons and Marlborough House, the remand home for boys, a sample number of industrial schools and the reformatory school for boys. Furthermore, they have visited the Borstal at Millisle and St. Patrick's Institution in Belfast. Again, members of the Committee have attended a United Nations seminar in Rome on the evaluation of methods used in the prevention of juvenile delinquency. All this activity has, I am glad to say, been accompanied by practical results.

The committee has not delayed in making recommendations in relation to day to day matters which could be rectified, and according as conclusions were reached it has put before me a number of recommendations which I have had no hesitation in approving. The following are among the principal recommendations which have already been implemented or are in course of implementation:—

(a) Recruit prison officers are now specially trained in the application of the rules and regulations and the training of all prison personnel in such matters as prisoner/ staff relationship, group-counselling and observation of inmates requiring special medical care. The training of a number of officers has already been completed and these courses are now an established part of the training of prison officers. The attendance of selected officers at study courses in other countries is being planned, and, in fact, following the award to him of a fellowship by the Council of Europe, the Governor of Mountjoy Prison has recently undergone a special course of study in Britain;

(b) Psychiatric treatment is now provided for inmates in need of special medical care. A 20-bed psychiatric unit has been opened in the hospital wing of Mountjoy Prison and is operating under the control of the Prison Medical Officer who is a qualified psychiatrist. Occupational therapy is provided for those under treatment and consultant services are available to the Prison Medical Officer when necessary;

(c) Additional medical orderlies are being appointed and are being trained in mental nursing. Four extra appointments have been made and all medical orderlies have undergone a training course conducted by the Prison Medical Officer;

(d) Special cellular accommodation, association cells with 3 beds, is being provided in St. Patrick's Institution for cases, such as epileptics, which require constant observation;

(e) A prison corrective training unit has been established for prisoners most likely to benefit from special training and who would, through teaching and guidance, be prepared and fitted for taking their places as normal members of society. This unit has been established in Mountjoy and at present there are just over 100 prisoners receiving special training there. The trainees are housed in a particular wing of the prison and arrangements are now in hand to secure their complete segregation from other prisoners. The training programme is a three-phase effort and advancement to the final phase, which includes pre-release treatment, is based on conduct, industry and personal effort towards reform. Apart from instruction in particular trades and occupations trainees are given opportunities to develop their individual talents. Private study is encouraged and hobby workshops for leisure time are provided. Debates are arranged and lectures given on subjects likely to assist in reform and rehabilitation. To date 15 prisoners have passed the examination for the first aid certificate of the Irish Red Cross Society, and, thanks to the voluntary services offered by members of the Garda Síochána Civil Defence Instruction Corps, a large number of trainees have received instruction in Civil Defence;

(f) A school has been established for backward prisoners. There is a high rate of illiteracy among prisoners, and the inter-Departmental Committee felt that unless something was done to remedy this position any efforts towards rehabilitation by way of training at a trade had little hope of achieving any measure of success. That school has now been established in Mountjoy. With the assistance and kind co-operation of the authorities of the Christian Brothers' Training School in Dublin, a prison officer, a former teacher, has been trained in the special teaching methods required for dealing with illiterates, semi-illiterates and backward adults. Tests are now given to prisoners on committal, and those found to be in need of instruction are graded into one of four classes and attend school until such time at least as they have reached a standard necessary to equip them for trade instructions. The school is having very satisfactory results. Indeed, I was very heartened to hear that many prisoners had asked to be given the opportunity to better their knowledge because I felt that those with family responsibilities would, on discharge, see to it that their children availed themselves of the facilities provided for their education;

(g) More effective teaching and training methods are being provided in St. Patrick's Institution. Here, too, the rate of illiteracy is very high. There have been consultations between my Department and the Department of Education and Comhairle Le Leas Oige and the new curriculum being planned for the Institution envisages the employment of the services of an educational psychologist and of qualified teachers and instructors, as well as the introduction of a Boys' Club curriculum during the evening recreational period;

(h) Some of the industries carried on in the prisons and St. Patrick's have been expanded and reorganised in order to give a greater value to an inmate's skill and experience and so improve the prospects of employment on discharge. The purchase of new equipment for the tailoring, shoemaking and carpentry classes is being arranged. Also the gardening activities in Mountjoy Prison are being extended to cover flower cultivation, propagation of shrubs, greenhouse work, lawn-laying etc., so as to provide training in the type of work done by nurserymen and suburban gardeners;

(i) Full-time Prison Welfare Officers are being appointed to advise prisoners on personal and domestic problems, to help in securing employment and to give after-discharge counsel and guidance. The preliminary steps have been taken towards this end and it is intended to appoint two such Officers, one of whom will be assigned to Mountjoy and the other to look after the needs of the inmates in St. Patrick's Institution and in Portlaoise and Limerick Prisons;

(j) A District Justice has been assigned on a permanent basis to the Children's Court and it is hoped that he will be able to make a close study of the problems of juvenile deliquency from the point of view of the judiciary;

(k) Additional official Probation Officers are being appointed in Dublin and there will be a widening of the scope of activities of the voluntary probation workers provided by societies and organisations interested in youth welfare and in the supervision of young persons discharged from reformatories and industrial schools. It is the Committee's view, which I accept, that outside Dublin the incidence of delinquency is not of such dimensions as to call for the appointment of full-time Probation Officers and that the work of supervision can be met, as in Cork and Limerick, by availing of the service of the voluntary probation worker. As regards Dublin, the Committee consider that greater use could be made of the voluntary services so willingly offered and that if this were done a State establishment of one Probation Administration Officer and six Probation Officers should suffice at present at any rate fully to meet requirements. I have seen no reason to disagree with this opinion and I have taken the necessary steps to bring the numbers up to the strength suggested. It will be part of the work of the Probation Administration Officer to co-operate with other bodies concerned with youth welfare, and especially with the police and their juvenile liaison officers to whom I shall refer in a moment, so that not only will the necessary coordination of effort be effected but also through the assembly of reports from many sources the fullest possible information will be available to the courts as a guide to the treatment appropriate for a particular offender;

(l) Arrangements have been made for greater participation by members of the Garda Síochána in the field of preventive justice particularly where juveniles are concerned. Many of the members of our Force are playing their part in keeping down juvenile delinquency by interesting themselves in the promotion and management of clubs for young people and I am encouraging this as much as possible. But apart from this commendable voluntary effort, the present policy, which calls for the co-operation of the injured party and of the parents, of "warning", instead of prosecuting, the young delinquent of previous good character has now been taken a stage further. In Dublin, a number of selected members of the Force have been appointed as Juvenile Officers, each of whom has the responsibility for all juvenile offences in a particular area and who acts as the liaison officer between the police and the other State and voluntary services concerned with the juveniles. This scheme has lately gone into operation and, if it proves successful, it will be applied in other centres of population.

(m) the question of obtaining alternative premises for St. Patrick's Institution is being pursued. Apart from their opinion that more spacious accommodation was needed to provide adequate elementary and technical education and outdoor recreational facilities, the Committee felt, and I heartily agree with them, that the siting of the Institution in close proximity to Mountjoy Prison was not the most desirable arrangement. This matter is being actively examined in consultation with the Commissioners of Public Works.

Other recommendations made by the Committee which are being attended to by my Department deal with such matters as the appointment of Prison After-Care Committees, the co-ordination of the various services concerned with crime and delinquency, viz., the police, the courts, the probation welfare and medical officers, the social workers, etc., and the wider use of the statutory powers for temporary release to enable prisoners who are nearing the end of their sentences to take up employment. This last matter is one in which I have not waited on the appointment of the Prison Welfare Officers and on other institutional arrangements, and I am happy to say that through the help of some of the present prison personnel quite a lot has already been done towards obtaining employment for prisoners who would shortly be due for release.

I am sure the House will agree with me that these recommendations are in full harmony with the Committee's "terms of reference" in that the changes proposed are reasonable and practicable. I expect the same sound approach to be reflected in the further proposals which the Committee will be making. The matters which are at present having the Committee's attention relate to the treatment of offenders in institutions which are not under my control, namely, reformatory and industrial schools and the Place of Detention at Marlborough House, Glasnevin, which is the only one of these institutions directly under State control. Marlborough House is the place of committal for youths dealt with by the Children's Courts and who have been committed in custody on remand or for trial or while awaiting transfer to a reformatory or an industrial school, and for those who have received a sentence of detention which, under existing law, cannot exceed one month. The short periods of custody served generally do not allow of any practical steps being taken with regard to the education and training of those detained. However, it is the intention to introduce legislation to provide that the Courts can impose sentences of detention up to 6 or 9 months. It is also intended to erect new premises for the Detention Home, to entrust the management of the home to the Brothers of the De La Salle Order and to provide for the teaching, training and care of the detainees by fully qualified personnel, including an educational psychologist. It is the view of the Committee that these desirable changes will lead to a wider use by the Children's Courts of the power of committal to detention, not only in relation to cases of the type which are dealt with to-day by fines or under the provisions of the Probation Act but also as an alternative to the exercise of the provisions for committal to reformatories and industrial schools.

It would be premature at this early stage to look for positive results but to judge by the enthusiasm and willingness to co-operate shown by all concerned in this work I have no doubt that the new approach will pay good dividends. But, as I have said before, a more important factor in the scheme of rehabilitation of offenders is the provision of suitable permanent employment on discharge and I would again appeal to all employers to do what they can when approached regarding the employment of these people. Here I wish to thank most sincerely those employers who have already responded to approaches and through whose co-operation prisoners who were being fully discharged or given temporary release were placed in remunerative employment. In expressing thanks to these employers, I am speaking, not alone for myself, but also for the prisoners concerned and their families and all those connected with prison management and administration—the Governors, Chaplains, Medical Officers, prison staff and the Prison Visiting Committees. The members of the Visiting Committees themselves deserve special mention for all that they do voluntarily, both in committee and by individual effort, to help in the rehabilitation of those in custody and to ensure that they are properly cared for during committal. The Committee's Reports for 1962 which appear in the Prisons Report for that year are ample evidence of their interest generally in their work and of their particular interest in the changes now being made in the penal system.

As well as those connected with the prison service, there are many others without whose voluntary efforts and assistance the achievement of the modern aims of prison administration would not be possible. I would like to pay grateful tribute to the Discharged Prisoners Aid Society, the Guild of St. Philip, St. Patrick's Welfare Association, the Irish Red Cross Society, the Garda Civil Defence Instructor Corps and other such organisations as well as the individual social workers for all that is being done by them, by way of grants, visits, lectures and courses with regard to the moral and temporal needs of prisoners and the promotion of good citizenship.

The next Estimate, No. 26, is that for the Courts of Justice. At £394,560 it is less than for the previous year by £18,100. However, Deputies who take these figures as an indication of a fall in expenditure will, I fear, be disappointed, as the apparent reduction has been brought about by a change in accounting arrangements. For the future, this Estimate will take credit for moneys, estimated at £22,000, received in respect of fines, which up to now were remitted direct to the Exchequer. There is, in fact, a modest increase in expenditure, due to a small increase in the number of stenographer and clerical staff and to some increase in travelling expenses.

In the case of the District Court, the operation of the reorganisation of districts carried out in 1961 continues to be kept under active review so as to ensure that the best possible service is provided for the public. When speaking on the subject of the District Court last year, I mentioned that I would like to see the justices having discussions amongst themselves on the general level of fines and other penalties with a view to the avoidance of undue divergencies in their judgments.

It is important that in so far as possible undue divergence in the penalties imposed by different courts for offences of the same character and gravity should be avoided and I hope that it may be possible to have this matter brought forward for discussion at the next statutory meeting of the district justices.

While on the subject of the courts, perhaps I should mention the Legal Diary, which is a sheet of the various cases listed for the courts in Dublin which is printed and circulated daily during term and which is of such importance to the legal profession and to the operation of the courts themselves. This publication has been in existence for over 100 years and had been published, with the aid of a State grant, by a well-known firm of Dublin publishers in a manner which gave the greatest satisfaction. However, with the development of their business it became no longer suitable for this firm to handle, so that during the year it became necessary for my Department to arrange for the transfer of the publication to another firm who are now continuing the good work of their predecessors, so that this valuable service continues. The transfer, I may say, was facilitated by the commendable co-operation afforded by the firm first referred to, in the handing over of blocks and other incidental material.

The retirement last August from the Circuit Court bench of Judge Binchy had the effect, under the law as it stands, of reducing by one the permissible number of permanent judges. As the volume of work, particularly in Dublin, made it impossible to carry on with one less, the President, on the advice of the Government, recently appointed a temporary Circuit Court judge. Proposals relating to the Circuit Court have been brought before the Dáil in the form of the Courts Bill, 1963.

Estimate No. 27 is that for the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds. This year's figure of £151,430 represents an increase of £7,470 over the previous year, attributable to some additional staff which are required for increased duties in the Land Registry. The work of both of these offices is showing a progressive increase in recent years. In the Land Registry, the number of dealings received for registration rose from 30,562 in the year ended 30th September, 1961, to 31,321 in the year ended 30th September, 1962, and again to 32,836 in the year ended 30th September, 1963; applications for discharge of equities rose from 1,815 to 1,830 to 2,100 for the same years and the number of applications for land certificates rose from 6,399 to 6,646 to 7,205.

Again in the case of the Registry of Deeds, the number of registrations rose from 23,710 in the year ended 30th September, 1961, to 23,729 in the year ended 30th September, 1962, and again to 26,653 in the year ended 30th September, 1963. Applications for searches rose from 5,979 to 6,142 to 6,458 in the same years.

The progress of work in the Land Registry over the past year was affected by difficulties apart from the increased volume of business. Vacancies which had existed because of difficulty in recruiting specialised staff had caused arrears in practically all branches. This was aggravated by a problem of space for office accommodation. The progressively increasing number of holdings registered requires additional space from year to year and there has also been an appreciable increase in the number of persons availing of the services of the Land Registry, whose attendance at the office to examine maps and other documents makes further demands on space. In consequence, an increase in office accommodation can no longer be avoided and arrangements are now well advanced towards an addition to the present building within the next year. Preparations have also been begun to double the size of the Land Registry premises in about 6 years' time when the effects of the new legislation on registration of titles will make this necessary. In the meantime spare office accommodation in the vicinity is being used as far as practicable. The state of work in the Land Registry and Registry of Deeds at present is regarded as generally satisfactory in all departments.

Finally, there is the Estimate for the Office of Charitable Donations and Bequests. Here, too, I am glad to be able to report steady progress during the past year in the various functions relating to the conduct and management of charities. During the period there was the regular addition to charitable trusts vested directly in the Commissioners, with a consequential increase in the nominal value of their funds to £1,885,380.

In conclusion, may I express my sincere thanks to all those members of voluntary committees and boards for which I have parliamentary responsibility, both present members and those who have retired during the past year? I should like to place on record how appreciative I am of the conscientious and able manner in which all concerned have carried out their tasks.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

This Estimate, taken in conjunction with the Budget Statement of the Minister for Finance, shows the extent to which the Government are prepared to "chance their arm" financially. The Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement mentioned—reference was also made to this by the Minister in the statement he has just read—the proposal to effect economies in the Minister's Department by postponing recruitment to the Garda Síochána. The figure given by the Minister for Finance in his Budget Statement was £50,000, to be saved by means of postponing Garda recruitment and making other economies.

The Minister for Justice today gave us a picture of increasing crime, as shown in the Commissioner's report, and, in the light of that report, this is certainly not the time to start thinking in terms of reducing the number in the Garda Síochána or postponing recruitment to that body. The same argument can be advanced in relation to the all-too-familiar picture of increasing road traffic offences; these might be prevented if there were more Gardaí. Side by side with that picture painted by the Minister, there is the picture showing the increase in crime.

According to the Commissioner's report—some of these figures were referred to by the Minister—for the year ended 30th September, 1962, the number of indictable offences is 15,307, showing an increase of 489 over the previous year. The number of offences in which charges were made for driving, or attempting to drive, while drunk numbered 912, an increase of about 40 per cent over the previous year. It was the highest figure in any year since 1957. Careless or dangerous driving charges increased by 441 to a figure of 4,233. According to the details given in the report, there were three cases of persons charged with manslaughter arising out of traffic fatalities; 99 cases of persons charged with dangerous driving, causing deaths, and 104 cases of people charged with causing serious bodily harm.

Burglary and housebreaking offences numbered 3,289, which again show an increase of 271 over the previous year. It is very disquieting to note from the report that there still seems to be a continuing increase in the numbers of young people engaged in crime. The number under 14 years has apparently risen every year since 1957. In the year to which this report relates, the figure was 1,375. In the age group between 14 and 17, the number was 1,689; in the age group between 17 and 21, the number was 1,390. In those circumstances, the desirability of stopping recruitment to the Garda Síochána is certainly not apparent.

The same picture is presented in relation to road traffic offences. Here I want to refer briefly to a speech the Minister made in the course of the year. I believe the Minister's outlook on this problem is all wrong. I know the Minister is not the Minister responsible for road traffic regulations, but he is responsible for the enforcement of these regulations. In face of the general outcry which arose during the summer in connection with road traffic offences, particularly offences of the more serious kind, the Minister went to a Fianna Fáil cumann in Baldoyle, County Dublin, to issue a warning. He indicated in the course of that speech —and no one will disagree with him on this—it was necessary that road traffic regulations should be fully and effectively enforced. His solution for the effective enforcing of the road traffic regulations was to forecast the setting up of a system of concealed traps for motorists—the use of radar equipment and the use of non-uniformed police for the purpose of tracking motorists in the commission of road traffic offences.

I said at the time, and I believe I was correct in the view, that that type of attitude on the part of the Minister and on the part of the authorities would simply be regarded as a challenge by some motorists and as an insult by others. It was certainly not an attitude calculated to obtain the co-operation of the motorist. It was an entirely wrong approach by the Minister to this problem and to the question of the proper enforcement of these regulations. The Minister indicated in that speech that he has a completely wrong idea as to the purpose for which the Force is in existence. The proper outlook on traffic offences—or, indeed, on any other offences, but I am dealing now with traffic offences—is that the primary task of the Garda should be prevention and that the question of detection and punishment of the offences arises only where, for one reason or another, the Garda have failed in what I would regard as their primary task of preventing the commission of the offences.

It is interesting to note the same idea seemed to be expressed in the Garda Review some months ago. It is self-evident. The more uniformed members of the Garda you have in existence and in evidence, the less likely are people to transgress the traffic code or the law in any other respect. The Minister's attitude is quite the opposite—that the right thing to do is to have Gardaí lying in concealed positions checking on motorists, so that if the motorist breaks the law, he will be punished. That will not prevent the breaking of the law or prevent the motorist from driving too fast. But if you have Gardaí in uniform on duty, it will prevent a breach of the law. The Minister's approach to this is quite wrong, and I hope it will be altered.

I want to refer briefly to another matter which caused concern in the course of the year. I do not want the Minister to misunderstand me on this. It is the question of the Minister intervening in court decisions. There were two cases in the course of the year where members of the judiciary— one a High Court judge and the other a Circuit Court judge—found it necessary to comment on the action of the Minister in interfering with decisions given by the court. As I say, I do not want to be misunderstood on this. I am not suggesting that the prerogative of mercy which vests in the Minister for Justice should be set aside. When the matter was raised in this House, the Minister's attitude, in reply to a question, was that people were trying to prevent him from exercising his discretion in this matter. I am not suggesting that that discretion and prerogative should not exist, but I think there should be some clear-cut principle which can be understood by everyone.

I am not necessarily to be taken as blaming the Minister in connection with the two cases to which I have referred. As the person with the responsibility for making up his mind and coming to a decision on them, the Minister knows the details of these cases. I am prepared to accept that he gave these matters full and due consideration before he decided to intervene. What I do suggest is— whether it is that the Government, as distinct from the Fianna Fáil Party, need a public relations officer, I do not know—that the Minister's actions in intervening in these two cases clearly did raise a certain amount of public disquiet and uneasiness. In the Circuit Court case to which I referred, the judge from the bench referred to this public disquiet which had been caused. It is most undesirable that should be so.

For that reason, I feel that whenever the Minister acts in these matters, he should be in the position of saying and of demonstrating in public that he is acting on some clear-cut principle that can be easily understood by all. It is quite proper that the Minister should act in cases where the defendant or accused or convicted person has exhausted the resources open to him under the courts, where there is no further appeal by him to the courts. In those cases there is no one else to turn to, if there has been a miscarriage of justice or a suspected miscarriage of justice, if new evidence comes to light and so on. Clearly in such cases the Minister would be not only entitled, but it would be his duty, to act; but, as I say, it is necessary that all of us should know on what principle the Minister does act in these matters.

Both judges objected to me acting at all.

If that was their attitude, I would not agree with them.

That was the net point.

With all respect to the Minister, I do not think it was the net point in one of them, the one to which the Circuit Court judge referred. He was aware of the fact— and I am aware of it independently of him—that very grave public disquiet and uneasiness were caused in the locality. It was that which motivated the Circuit Court judge to raise the matter, as he did raise it, in court and to require the attendance in the witness box of, I think, a senior Garda official, if not a prison official, to explain the position and to endeavour to set at rest the disquiet which had been raised in that particular case.

The only point at issue was whether I was entitled to defer the execution of the warrant, pending consideration of the petition.

The Minister's recollection of it may be better than mine. I have not got the local newspaper report which I had on the occasion when I raised this by way of question here. However, as I say, quite apart from the fact that the Circuit Court judge in question referred to the public uneasiness caused in the area, I know from a communication which I saw that that was so and that uneasiness was caused.

I asked the Minister a question last week as follows:

Mr. M.J. O'Higgins asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been called to a newspaper report to the effect that a lady connected with the organisation of recent public protests against the Government turnover tax was warned by two Garda officers that she would be arrested if she watched or besetted the Taoiseach's house in any way; whether or not any such threat was made at the direction or with the knowledge of any member of the Government; if he will agree that it is most undesirable that the impression should be created, by Garda activity of the type reported, that official action will be taken to discourage opposition to Government policies; and if, in the circumstances, he will make it quite clear that any person is entitled, by all lawful means, to express and to organise opposition to the turnover tax or any other aspect of Government policy without interference from the Gardaí or any other State authority.

The Minister in his reply stated that the report was incorrect, that there was no question of arrest involved. I accept that, of course, because I did not see the report on which the Garda authorities acted but the Minister did not, in the course of his reply, deal with the specific question I put to him as to whether or not the threat or warning, whatever you like to call it, was made at the direction or with the knowledge of any member of the Government.

The reason I raise this here is not that I want to be in any way controversial about particular cases but that it does seem to me that an impression has been created that the Garda are going to be encouraged in activity of this sort, activity which people might be justified in regarding as political activity. We had the earlier incident of the use of police dogs in connection with a parade which obviously was a political parade. We had the incident of a colleague of the Minister —I think it was the Minister for Lands —threatening legal action against some people who were agitated and protesting about the turnover tax at the time it was being debated in this House. We had the unfortunate example of the Taoiseach addressing this House and threatening bloody noses to a trade organisation if they engaged in politics in connection with the turnover tax.

All that does seem to be building up a picture which, to my mind, is quite undesirable. It is wrong that the public should have the impression that either by doing nothing or else by encouragement the Government are going to have matters of political opposition dealt with now on the basis of threats of arrests or threats of prosecution by the Garda. We have had rough days in politics in this country and surely the type of protest which has been organised by housewives in Dublin is an extremely orderly type of protest? It makes their views quite clear and well known and it is certainly not the type of activity which, to my mind, in any event, requires intervention from the Garda. If the impression should be created—and I think it is being created—that the Government are prepared to call on all the forces of the State to squelch opposition of this kind to Government policy, all I can say is that it is most unfortunate and most undesirable and should not be allowed to happen.

There are some matters of perhaps lesser importance that I should like to raise for the purpose of getting information in regard to them. There was a certain amount of criticism from these benches last year regarding the use of batons by Gardaí on traffic duty. I have, in the course of the year since that criticism was made, made it my business to study as best I could the use of these batons by these Gardaí. Quite frankly, my own inclination is to agree with the criticism that has been made. The signals made by the Garda by means of these batons are very much less clear than the old type of hand signal to which we were accustomed. I have myself on more than one occasion felt quite confused as to what signal I was getting from the Garda by means of the baton. I know the use of these batons is for the purpose of putting the Garda on traffic duty on a par with his European counterparts but if that is to lead to confusion, then either their show value or their prestige value is not worthwhile and it is a matter that should be reconsidered by the Minister.

I should like to ask the Minister also what is the position in regard to "Stop" signs which are erected around the place. The Minister will recall that during the year a number of prosecutions were issued against motorists for failure to have regard to these "Stop" signs. Some prosecutions were heard and a number of motorists suffered fines as a result. Then suddenly the pending prosecutions were withdrawn and when the matter was raised here in the House— I have not at the moment got the Minister's reply—I was not entirely clear as to the reason why it was done. I am still not clear. The Minister finished his reply on that occasion by urging motorists still to have regard to the "Stop" signs. I have noticed that since then these are being gradually replaced by "Yield Right of Way" notices. Perhaps the Minister would inform us as to the position in this regard.

Could the Minister also tell us what is the position regarding the report on juries and what is the up-to-date position regarding the report of the Commission dealing with ground rents? The Minister referred briefly to the fines-on-the-spot system and said it seemed to be working well. I should like the Minister to give us more data than that on it. How many fines on the spot have been imposed? How many people who have been fined have decided to test the matter out in court?

I was glad the Minister referred to the question of uniformity of penalties imposed by district justices. I know there is an easy way out of this problem, that is, to impose mandatory penalties, a situation which I should not like to see developing. The proper approach is the one which was outlined by the Minister in his statement, namely, that this matter should be discussed by the district justices at their gatherings, to see if they could get some kind of uniformity in the penalties which they impose for similar offences.

The Minister referred to the visit which a Party of Irish jurists made to Germany. I think I am correct in saying that it was for the purpose of studying the legal system and legal developments in Germany. I think I am also correct in saying the Minister did not include in his party going abroad any representative of the solicitors' profession or the Incorporated Law Society. I think that was a pity. It could have been done.

They have told me so, in fact.

I am sure they were quite right in doing so. The Minister also referred to the closing down of Garda stations and I think he said seven were closed during the year. He said:

Representations are frequently made against proposals to close down stations or reduce them to one-man units. I should like to assure Deputies that these proposals which fall to be approved by me personally, arise only in cases where, by reason of the absence of crime, the sparsity of population, etc., I am satisfied that such reductions can be made without detriment to police efficiency.

I want to put the point to the Minister that very often it may be the existence of the Garda station that accounts for the absence of crime.

Hear, hear.

I do not think a squad car is any adequate substitute for a Garda station.

Hear, hear.

If the Minister is proceeding on the basis that he is justifying the closing down of Garda stations by the absence of crime in an area, again, the Minister is acting on false premises.

It has been suggested to me, and I should like to pass on the suggestion to the Minister, that the Garda Síochána directory needs to be modernised in some instances. For example, the Garda stations at Shankill and Baltinglass are listed as being half a mile from the nearest railway station. In view of the activities of the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, it might be worth the Minister's while to look again at where the railway station nearest to Baltinglass is.

We will either have to change the directory or restore the railway.

Do not say anything or he may knock down the Garda station, too.

The Minister also referred to the question of reorganising the district courts. I suggest he should look at that matter again, particularly in relation to the Bray court. The Minister will recall the abolition of the court at Shankill and Newtownmountkennedy. The work which was previously done there now comes into Bray court, and the information given to me is that the Bray court is now very seriously overloaded with work and certain anomalies have been created. People now travel long distances to the Bray court, although other courts might be much more convenient for them. I should like the Minister to look at that question, particularly in relation to the Bray court.

There is one other matter to which I want to refer. I do it reluctantly, and with some personal embarrassment, because of family connections. I am aware of the fact that the Minister and the Government have rejected an offer which was made to them of a small fund which would have been of benefit to the Garda Síochána. The fund was offered by the daughter of the person who was primarily responsible for establishing the Garda in this country, in a natural desire to do something to commemorate her father. It was rejected by the Minister, and rejected by the Taoiseach. I am afraid I must say I believe the rejection of that offer was a petty political decision, not in the interests of the Garda, and not in the interests of the nation.

I should hope that if any Deputy on these benches were in the Minister's shoes, and if a similar offer were made for the purpose of some memorial to the Minister's predecessor, for example, that that offer would not be rejected. I believe it was a political decision which should not have been made. As I say, I raise the matter with considerable reluctance but I feel, as a spokesman for the Fine Gael Party on this Estimate, it is a matter which it is proper for me to raise here.

I shall be brief because of the fact that in a few weeks we shall probably be dealing with the Minister's Estimate again. The Minister made it clear that he has covered a period of more than 12 months. I do not object to that except that perhaps there will be repetition on the part of the Minister in a month or six weeks when he is introducing another Estimate, because he will go back more than the few months that are now left to him. I wish to confine myself to a small number of items.

The Minister spoke of committees which have been set up. I know the Minister, like all Ministers of all Governments, has a happy knack of setting up committees. I do not blame him for that, because he is in good company, but there is one committee about which I think we ought to get finality, that is, the committee dealing with ground rents. I know there are many difficulties, but it is about time we made some attempt to solve this problem. The Fianna Fáil and the inter-Party Governments seem to have been trying to avoid it. The more committees they were able to set up to deal with the problem, the more opportunity the Minister for Justice and the Government concerned had of saying they were waiting for some information. It has gone on too long and the sooner finality is reached in this very important matter the better.

The Minister mentioned the Land Registry and rightly pointed out the difficulties prevailing there due to lack of accommodation and the difficulty of filling vacancies. I wish to go on record as saying that I found I got more co-operation and help from the officials of the Land Registry than from any other State Department. Down the country much blame for delay is attributed to the Land Registry and many a client is told by his legal adviser that all the problem is due to the Land Registry when, from my own personal experience, I know that very often the hold-up is in the office of the legal adviser himself. The Land Registry is undoubtedly doing excellent work and its staff are most co-operative and it is only right to pay them that tribute.

The Minister gave comparative statistics for crime but I think it is not sufficient for the Minister to show that we have not a serious crime problem compared with other countries. In dealing with questions of crime and its detection it is not enough to say: "We are good in bad company." Our own ideal must be to prevent crime where possible and where crime is committed to deal with it in the most proper and reasonable manner possible. Our ideals and our sense of moral values must be somewhat different from those which may obtain in other places and we must uphold our own standards. I must say I am not satisfied that conditions are good here in regard to crime and crime detection.

It is true that child delinquency, in Dublin particularly, and in other cities, is high and adds to the overall percentage. The courts and those concerned have tried to deal with the problem most realistically from both the delinquents' and the public point of view. I said years ago and now repeat that very often bad parents are hiding behind the fact that the names are not published in such court cases. I should be the last to wish that the name of a boy or girl should be dragged out in public if it is possible to avoid it, but on the other hand, too often parents in Dublin, Cork and elsewhere are not worried about what the child may be doing because, even when the child ends up in court, the name of the child or parent is not published. Protect the child as far as possible; be fair to the parents if it is a first offence and if they are doing their utmost to control the child but where it is a case of parents encouraging a child, such parents should be made accountable. I read of a case some months ago where a boy was warned by his mother in the presence of the gardaí to give them no information. He was encouraged by the mother to treat the gardaí with contempt and to be prepared to defy the law. The proper approach, I think, is that on the second, certainly on the third offence, the name of the parents should be published in the newspapers. That may seem hard but ultimately it may be better for the child who may otherwise carry the consequences of his parents' neglect into adult life.

Like Deputy O'Higgins, I wish to refer to the closing of Garda barracks. I approached the Minister about one in particular and it is not because he turned down the request that I raise it but because I am not satisfied with the present position. In Blackrock, County Cork, we have a village which was there when Cork was only half its present size. The barracks there were closed and we were told the district was near enough to Cork city for supervision by the city barracks and by the squad car. The Minister may be able to show that at present conditions in Blackrock have not deteriorated. I hope that is so, but I still say the squad car, moving through the parks in the suburban area between the city and Blackrock is in no way as good a protection to the people as the presence of a few gardaí in the barracks. Can anyone imagine a man who comes out from Cork city with the intention of breaking into a house standing out in one of the parks so that the gardaí in the squad car, which has its sign in front, can see him. Even if they do their best, as they do, there is no comparison between that and the old system where the local gardaí knew every nook and cranny in the area and would be quickly able to discover the intentions of a prowler. That was a far more sensible approach to dealing with the problem of housebreaking than the present system of the squad car going down to Blackrock from Cork city.

It is essential that the overall policy of replacing Garda barracks in many parts of the country by squad cars should be re-examined. It is my opinion that higher horse-power motorcycles would be far more suitable for the purposes of the Garda than squad cars. A Garda on a motor-cycle can do more good than a few Gardaí in a squad car. There is less publicity for his presence in the locality. He can get around certainly as fast as a squad car does and can do more good than the men in a squad car are doing at present, despite their best endeavours.

There is one item I want to mention. Naturally, the Minister did not refer to it and I would not expect him to do so. It is a serious problem. I do not know how it affects Dublin but I do know how it affects Cork city and county. I refer to these "wandering minstrels", as some people are inclined to call them, these people who are doing a great deal of harm because their actions are most provocative, in Cork at any rate. I am speaking of the members of the Jehovah's Witnesses sect. If something is not done about this, I am afraid there will be trouble as there has been in the past. Respectable people found themselves in court as a result of defending themselves because of the nuisance created by these people. It is essential that fair-play be given to all sections of the community. The individual is protected under the Constitution.

On a point of order, can nothing be done about the noise in the House?

It is a point of disorder.

Is the House going to collapse?

This problem, or this menace, must be examined. I would ask the Minister to get further reports from the responsible Garda authorities in the various districts as to what is happening. I find that these people are appearing and causing trouble in even some of the most remote districts.

There are other items that I have no intention of discussing here. I will come to them on the next Estimate. I would draw attention to one very important item, that is, conditions for the Garda. It is essential when a man joins the Garda Síochána that the authorities should be able to give him a sense of protection. If he is doing his duty, he must be able to feel secure in his employment. Without that, the Garda cannot hope to be the success that we would wish. The Minister knows what happened in a certain town in Cork recently. The Minister knows that in that particular case where a sergeant of the Garda who had been most conscientious in his work, had been fair to everyone there, had attended to every matter pertaining to his office, was suddenly put in the position of getting a quick shift to another part of the county, which would be detrimental in so far as the education of his family was concerned.

I know nothing about it.

I want to be fair. A man should not be transferred or threatened with transfer within perhaps 48 hours, certainly 60 hours. That should not happen. This is awkward. I hope I am not being hard on the Minister. I do not wish to be hard. Locally, there was an opinion that there was a political mix-up there, too.

I have no notion of what the Deputy is talking about.

I will mention it very quickly. In this case nobody could ever accuse the member of the Garda Síochána concerned of having taken sides with any political Party or individuals of any political Party. He did his work honestly and conscientiously. He was told to be ready for a quick shift. What is the mystery with the Minister and his officials? The Minister gave a letter to Deputy Corish on this subject. I asked Deputy Corish. I did not ask the Minister because we probably do not see eye to eye on everything and I did not wish to approach him and make the position somewhat embarrassing between the two of us. I have the reply from the Minister. That sergeant of the Garda Síochána has not been shifted since. He got a last minute reprieve but the axe is still held over his head. In six months' time, he will see what happens.

I am not saying that the Minister had anything to do with the threat of transfer but somebody had. I will go so far as to say that, in my honest opinion, the local superintendent or chief superintendent had nothing to do with it. It did, I believe, emanate from Dublin. I am quite satisfied that it may not have had any connection with the Minister at that time. It was probably done without the Minister's consent, without his knowing anything about it. It happened, and when the six months are up, we will see what happens. The Minister got letters of protest from the local clergy and from the local town council and from practically everyone about this transfer. Did that not show that there was something mysterious behind it? That should not happen.

All I am saying to the Minister at this stage is that the letter he sent to Deputy Corish, the protests he got from the local people, were of such a nature that it would be very important at this stage for the Minister to examine the entire file himself again to see that an injustice will not be done to a member of the Garda Síochána who has been doing such a good job, who has been so honest and conscientious in his work, that that threat of six months' probation, as it were, will be removed. If that is not done, there will be more unrest in the town. I leave it to the Minister at this stage to examine the situation regarding the threatened transfer.

I was deeply interested, as were the two previous speakers, in that part of the Minister's speech in which he said:

Representations are frequently made against proposals to close down stations or reduce them to one-man units. I should like to assure Deputies that these proposals which fall to be approved by me personally, arise only in cases where, by reason of the absence of crime, the sparsity of population, etc., I am satisfied that such reductions can be made without detriment to police efficiency.

I would take it from that, that if any Deputy could show that the cause of crime or breaches of law and order was the fact that there were no guards stationed in an area, that would be sufficient justification for consideration of the erection or restoration of a station in an area. A serious example of this is the murder of the old lady in a shop in Dublin.

The Minister said at Question Time the other day to me and to Deputy Tully and other Deputies who referred to the matter, that we were endeavouring to be guards and policemen here. I would not say we would have the qualifications but we have the qualification of ordinary citizens to tell the Minister that he would not have that qualification either. The way things are going, the Garda do not seem to be that well qualified in crime detection. The reason is that the Garda are not living in the area. A murder is committed. Cars appear with strange gardaí in them as far as the people are concerned and they go around making inquiries and the people all fade away. I put it to the Minister that you could not beat the old idea—it was an English idea—of the village policeman, who lived in the area with a colleague or three or four colleagues, depending on the size of the station. They knew everybody in the area and everybody knew them. When we had these small Garda stations, the gardaí were friendly with the people and had the trust of the people. They walked along their beat and somebody said to them: "How are you doing about that case? Do you not know that Mick So-and-So was up at that corner last night?" Those gardaí on the beat got the information they needed. At present the gardaí are not getting the information.

The purpose of a police force is the maintenance of law and order, in the first place, the prevention of crime, in the second, and the detection of crime, in the third. If you want to prevent crime or any breach of the law, there is no better deterrent than the presence of the man in uniform in a particular area. It is a serious matter that in face of a wave of juvenile delinquency and breaches of the law, the Minister is reducing the number of gardaí, the number of stations and is not recruiting to the Force.

The Minister was kind enough to meet the Mayor of Waterford and a representative deputation about the building of a new Garda station in that city. At present the gardaí are down at one end of the city on Adelphi Quay. That station is to be closed and a big central station is to be built at Ballybricken. But the people will be in the same predicament. They will still be from two to three miles away from the station and the old system of the man on the beat in the outlying areas in places such as Waterford will be gone. That is bad.

Two and a half years ago, I came into this House and told the Minister certain facts about what was happening in Waterford but he paid no attention to me. My colleague, Deputy Kyne, was inclined to agree with the Minister and the Minister may have been influenced by the fact that Deputy Kyne agreed with him. However, I was right and I will now prove to the Minister that I was right. The fact that a city of the size of Waterford is left without patrols, particularly at night time, is detrimental to the maintenance of law and order.

This is a quotation from the Waterford Star:

This incident occurred three days after the Minister for Justice told Mr. T.A. Kyne in the Dáil that he had been informed by the Gardaí that reports that the female residents of St. John's Park, Waterford, were afraid to venture out alone at night owing to the presence in the area of a marauder who attacked unprotected females, were without foundation.

Mr. Haughey added that no complaints of assault on women or girls in the area mentioned had been made to the Gardaí nor had they any reason to think that such assaults had occurred. In fact only one complaint of such an assault in the city of Waterford in recent times had been made.

The Minister said that some complaints of a much less serious kind had been made to the Gardaí and had received and would continue to receive all possible attention.

There was a note to this which says:

To avoid causing distress to the family we are withholding the name of the girl who was accosted.

The Waterford Star is keeping its eye on the Minister for Justice.

And so are the Munster Express and the Evening Herald keeping an eye on the Minister. The paper continues:

A Garda spokesman in Waterford said this week that an incident in which a girl was accosted by a young man in the southern part of the city is under investigation.

I had received many complaints from people about these attacks and I wanted them to go to the Garda and report them but they would not do so. I appealed to the parents of one girl to go to the Garda but they would not do so because they did not want their daughter to have to appear in court.

In the Waterford News and Star of 5th April 1963, there is a report of a suspended sentence given to a man when convicted of assault. His name and address are given. The gardaí had been watching him for some time but they could not watch him all over the city as they had to keep buzzing around in a car. That man got three months in jail from the district justice in Waterford. If it had been another district justice, he might have sent him to Van Diemen's Land.

Some would have given him a medal.

In the Munster Express and Waterford Star of 29th November, 1962 there is the following statement:

It was a rather serious matter and offences of this kind were very common in the city. The Gardaí were under fire from all quarters and were asked why they were not doing more. When a culprit was detected and brought before the court, punishment which would deter others from committing similar acts should be imposed.

That is a quotation from a Garda officer.

I want to state here that I have nothing whatever to say against the efficiency, willingness and courtesy of the gardaí but I have everything to say regarding the position they are being placed in by the Minister and his Department. In Waterford, they are all packed away in one station; there are not enough of them; and there are not enough men for the beat. There is no better deterrent than a man in uniform walking along the footpath and it seems to be the idea of the Department to disperse all these men and to replace them by a few men flying about in motor cars. Of course it may be the cheese-paring attitude of the Minister for Finance and his Department that is grinding down the Department of Justice.

This quotation is right up to the minute. It is from the Waterford News and Star of January, 1964, and it is as follows:

"When reports of such assaults got out, it caused mass hysteria amongst the females of the city," commented Inspector T. Leahy at Waterford Court when he prosecuted in a case concerning assaults on girls.

Let me say this to the Minister and his officials. These things would not happen if the gardaí were in the position of being able to patrol our towns and cities and were able to look after the maintenance of law and order. The best way in which that can be done in a city such as Waterford is not to build a white elephant in Ballybricken but to build five small police stations in the city or to build one large one and four smaller ones. With three, four or five gardaí and a sergeant, there would always be gardaí in the area and the sergeant would be there. I know of a housing scheme with 600 people, 2½ miles from a Garda station. There are long avenues there and young people walk home at night along them. There is no patrol and there are no gardaí. There is no use in the Minister's trying to salve his conscience by saying that a patrol car buzzed through one of the streets and went off: that is useless.

It is very difficult to change a policy. I discovered that from the Minister for Transport and Power: how wrong he was and how bitterly he regretted it. I should not like this Minister to be put in that position. I will give the Minister credit for receiving a deputation from Waterford Corporation—unlike his colleague who locks himself up in an ivory tower and hides behind his officials and will not let anybody see him. I appeal to this Minister to change the policy of centralisation and buzzing around in motorcars. I do not care what countries have given him reports or what people have told him about their squad cars and what they are able to do with them. The Minister should stick to the system of small stations with gardaí in them. Their very presence in the place will do more to maintain law and order, to detect crime and to protect the Irish people than anything else. Furthermore, he will have more friendly relations between the Garda and the people and that is what we want.

One of the things that irk the normal citizen—and the citizen is abnormal and is wrong in a lot of cases—is all these traffic regulations and parking laws, and so on, that are necessary. I am saying this against ourselves—the ordinary Irish people. If a garda comes along one of the busy streets in Dublin and tries to move any of us away, we are a little bit annoyed about it, but the man is only doing his duty. All of these things that the gardaí have to do and all the short answers they get from people often make them a bit irritable. It finishes up that both the man in blue, in that case, and the ordinary Irish citizen are, we would say, not on great terms and, as a whole, the relations of the Force with the people are not as friendly as the Minister would like them to be.

In other countries they have a special corps in the police for dealing with traffic and I would ask the Minister to consider that for the larger centres. It would be well if there were men with maybe a different type of uniform who are members of the gardaí and who would be in the traffic section. Their duty would be to look after parking areas and to attend to breaches of the law as regards traffic in the cities. That would not prevent the ordinary garda in the country or city areas from intervening, if he saw a citizen flagrantly breaking the law. I should like the Minister and his officials to examine that line of country.

I am often a little confused as to where the Minister for Justice starts when it comes to traffic and where the Minister for Local Government takes up. I know that the Minister for Local Government puts up the traffic signs, and so on. The Minister for Justice sees to it that the traffic laws are obeyed.

I would commend the Minister for Local Government on the drive he is making to endeavour to have safety on our roads but I would say to the Minister for Justice that he should join with him. This will have to be an appeal from the Government—I would say even from the Oireachtas. In spite of appeals by the Minister for Local Government—and very good appeals they are and the Minister did his business very well: I am not denying that or finding fault with it—seemingly it is very difficult to break through to the Irish people and therefore the Minister for Justice, as the other Minister concerned with traffic, should consult with his colleague about this matter.

The Minister mentioned decorations for bravery. I would remind him of Maurice Ryan, aged 39, an unemployed labourer of Glin, County Carlow. He went to the aid of the gardaí in that terrible fracas down there. He went to the aid of Garda Bartholomew Foley and he lost his life. We are great people for commemorating our heroes. Maurice Ryan was a great hero. That man did not owe this country very much. He was unemployed. There was a frightful scene. There was an Englishman there—a great Englishman—and he went to help the gardaí in Glin. But this man—Maurice Ryan—out of all the other people who were there, lost his life. Now that the case is over and the people have been sentenced— whatever happened to them I do not know—there should be some recognition by the Department of Justice to Maurice Ryan's people. I shall leave that to the Minister. I have an idea he will consider it favourably.

The last thing I have to say is to appeal that a Garda barracks be built in the town of Tramore. The present barracks is hidden in the old coastguard station away out on the coast. Tramore is a very busy place in the summer and it is inconvenient that the Garda barracks should be situated a long distance from the centre of the town. This thing has been going on for years. I have an idea that if the Minister sent a letter to the officer concerned and said to him: "I want a result about this proposed new station for Tramore," it would be built. If there are difficulties about the site, would the Minister ask his officials to communicate with the Tramore Town Commissioners? They would meet the officials on the ground and if there is a dispute about the site or anything else, maybe the whole thing could be fixed up there by the Town Commissioners. The Town Commissioners have acquired the railway station and that might do but it is time something was done about it.

In conclusion, I just want to stress the importance of the small police station and of the gardaí going on the beat. I would not like the Minister to brush that aside and say that in the interests of either economy or efficiency that was going because it may not be in the interests of economy but it is in the interests of efficiency.

Murder stalks the land at present and in this city there is a great wave of apprehension, of which the Minister is no doubt as much aware as I am, in regard to safety of life and limb. The late Deputy Norton not long ago asked the Minister by way of supplementary question what was being done about the murderers who were at large and of whom there were so many that they could form a club. Since then their numbers have been added to. This is the most serious aspect of the administration of justice confronting the people today. It is a sad commentary on the state of affairs into which the administration of law has fallen when the ordinary inoffensive citizen cannot go about his or her lawful occasions.

I am not concerned about the allocation of blame in this because that does not serve much purpose and it develops into abuse as between one side and the other; nor am I concerned to make it a matter of political advantage to my own Party or a disadvantage to another Party, to the Minister or any other individual, but I am concerned that we should seriously consider what steps can be taken to restore public confidence, which is rapidly diminishing, in the administration of law as it relates to public safety. Other Deputies spoke about the change in the system of Garda protection from the old one of the beat to the present mobile system of squad cars. I do not know whether the substitution of squad cars for the old system was not inevitable but I do know from my contacts with members of the old RIC and from talks with them about the manner in which the law was administered in their day that the system seemed to be far more effective than our system is. It was, as we know, primarily designed for a political purpose, to keep "tabs" on the Irish people but it was a system which also kept "tabs" on ordinary crime and gave, as far as I can gather, a great feeling of security to the people.

I remember an old policeman telling me that he was in a barracks of four and the area with which they had to deal was divided into four. A map of their area was provided and was squared off into four sections and each policeman was given an area and he had to know every man, woman, child, dog and "divil" in the area and everything about them. Therefore, you had a police system which reached to the very last person in the whole country. While it was a political device by the British, it worked very well in the ordinary matter of protecting the people from outrage. Of course, since the State was founded, we have been moving further and further away from that kind of police scrutiny. I suppose that was an inevitable development but we have not found anything as effective to substitute for the old system of the beat policeman referred to by Deputy Lynch. On the contrary, we have murderers going around with complete impunity.

It is an extraordinary situation in a small country, where you might say almost everybody is known or related to everybody else, that murderers, not one or two but quite a number of them, can go about without being detected. It is a most depressing thought. The public, especially in Dublin, as I am sure the Minister is aware, very often make the mistake of criticising the Garda for this situation. Every day they walk the streets they see plenty of gardaí available to book people who have parked their cars in the wrong places, or who stop their cars for longer than a few minutes in a busy street, or who have been, perhaps, deemed to be speeding. The public view is that there seems to be plenty of policemen available for this kind of work and that anybody who stops his car in the centre of Dublin is nearly sure to get a ticket, yet we seem to fall down on the most important aspect which is the primary function of a police force, the protection of life and property.

It has been suggested, but I do not know how true it is because I am not familiar with the identities of the various high officials in the gardaí, that one possible explanation of our present dilemma may be that we have not adhered to what is a very good principle, that it takes a policeman to run a police force; that the best man you can have to do any job is the man who has done it from the word go, who worked his way up from the bottom, who knows the problems, as in this case, of law and order, and when he eventually rises to the top he is the best man to administer the law. Whether or not that applies I do not know but I have heard it expressed not alone by people attached to the Labour Party but people in Fianna Fáil and other Parties and by people who have no particular political affiliations at all. Whether that is a useful observation or not is something the Minister will have to determine for himself, but it does seem that we have something to look into in the detection of murderers.

The same might be said about burglaries. It is difficult for me to talk without any degree of ire on the question of housebreaking because—I am not saying this for publicity purposes or anything else—I have been a victim eight times in seven years and without any sign of anybody being detected for the offences. There is a growing volume of housebreaking and every time we pick up the newspapers we read about more and more. I have talked about this problem with the Garda Síochána. Some of them have said: "But look what happens. We capture some of these fellows and bring them before the court. What do they get? A homily from the district justice." In a great many cases they are told to be good boys, and sent home. Before ever they enter the sobering portals of Mountjoy, to get up at six o'clock in the morning, and learn the facts of life, they become almost hardened criminals.

This idea of consideration for offenders has been pushed too far in the wrong direction. Of course, there should be consideration for offenders, but there should also be consideration for law-abiding citizens. I commend the Minister's efforts for penal reform. The Inter-Departmental Committee he mentioned is a very good idea. I think, however, that the public generally—certainly I myself am—are a bit browned off with the decisions of district justices when these offenders appear before them. We read in the papers philosophical dissertations from the Bench. These are not the province of these gentlemen, most of whom are appointed to the Bench by virtue of political patronage. These decisions do not seem to take into account the facts of life.

A young person given his head can become a menace to society. There is a feeling abroad to-day amongst these young people, among a certain fractious and dangerous fraction of them, that they can get away with anything. This idea is nurtured by the vulgar television serialisation and corny Hollywood pseudo-philosophies. That can only be corrected by bringing these people face to face with the hard facts of life. The Garda have told me that capturing these young offenders is an idle exercise on their part because they are merely told to go home and be good boys. Then there is a next time, and a next time, until eventually they become incorrigible criminals and have to be put away.

The Minister made no mention at all in his brief of these murders. Surely that is something that should be discussed on this Estimate. The question of the safety and protection of life is very important. It passes comprehension, as Deputy T. Lynch pointed out, how in the daytime, around dusk, people can go into a shop in a crowded city thoroughfare, beat up two ladies, killing one in the process, and then walk out, and not be heard of again. It cannot be argued that there was no public co-operation. There was ample co-operation. Everyone in the city was roused because of this brutal act. I am sure no citizen would hesitate to get in touch with the Garda if the opportunity offered to bring these people to justice. Several people did try to help, in good faith, but apparently something went wrong, and these murderers got away. It is not good enough that we should just sit back and say: "Oh, it is just another of those things." We should do something about it.

What is wrong with the administration of law in Dublin and throughout the country that permits these things to happen? There was Wexford; there was Carlow. In rural areas there may be a suggestion of agrarianism, which traditionally makes it difficult to detect crime, but crime in the ordinary sense of the word should not be as difficult to detect as it appears to be. We must tackle the situation. We have a duty to the people to do something about it. Otherwise, this will happen again. Something must be done. Would the Minister have an investigation to see what steps are necessary to bring about a restoration of public confidence in his Department, because confidence in his Department is fast disappearing?

I should like to commend the Garda Síochána. There is no job so difficult or so disagreeable as the policeman's job. Neither is there any job so essential. Will the Garda benefit by the recommended 12 per cent increase in pay? I hope they will. The Minister should implement that recommendation in their regard as quickly as possible. Everybody realises we must have a force adequately recompensed for their duties. We must have a satisfied force. At the best of times their job is a difficult one.

When the big occasion comes, they do excellent work. They did a good job on the occasion of the late President Kennedy's visit wherever they were during those momentous days. It is a pity they were not at the Garden Party. They might have put some manners into some of the people who were there. Their conduct was exemplary and I am glad the Minister gave them full credit.

With regard to the training of young people committed to institutions, there is a standard acceptance that young people should be trained in, of all things, cobbling. I have seen chaps come out of these places great cobblers. That is a trade that offers little or no opportunity for employment these days. Institutional cobbling is entirely different from the cobbling that goes on in the commercial shop in the city.

We have got quite a few fixed up.

I am glad to hear some got employment, but it strikes me as somewhat anachronistic and Dickensian in these days to train these young people in cobbling. It would be an excellent idea to train both the youth and the adult in handicrafts which would enable them to earn a livelihood. I do not know whether they still sew mailbags in Mountjoy, it is so long since I was there, but it often struck me as a most soul-destroying and unrewarding task in the sense that so much human labour was wasted and so much human spirit depressed. The committee to which the Minister referred should consider substituting some form of remunerative employment, which would not cut across the rights of people outside, for the old traditional penal duties imposed on prisoners. I do not see how the products of prisons could impinge very greatly on any market. Handicrafts, such as leatherwork, should be encouraged. I would urge the Minister to do his best in that regard.

Ground rents were touched on in the course of the Minister's speech. He indicated recently that the report of the Commission on Ground Rents would shortly be available. I am glad that is so. When the Commission was set up, I feared it would enter the limbo of commissions and we would not hear about it again during our lifetime except when a question was put down. It is good to know that the report is about to come in. I hope that, whatever recommendations are made, no time will be lost in putting them into effect. Ground rents, especially in and about the suburbs of Dublin, are not alone out-dated but are a downright injustice—an imposition on the people. I do not know whether we would want to examine old prison registers, as the Minister has invited us to do. It might be interesting.

We might find some of our ancestors there.

Maybe not even as far back as that. However, I know one or two people who would be glad to avail of the Minister's kind invitation.

It is an odd thing that the Minister has not seen in his own statement the proof of the case made by Deputy Lynch and by other Deputies. If he looks at page six of his statement, paragraph 14, he will see that the overall detection rate in 1962 was 66 per cent, which happens to be exactly the same as in the preceding year. In Dublin, it was 47 per cent and outside Dublin, it was 85 per cent. Is that not the most eloquent testimony to the fact that where the Garda are in close and intimate contact with the people the detection rate of crime is high, but the more anonymous relations between the Garda and the people become, the lower the detection rate falls?

I dissent somewhat from the spirit of Deputy Dunne's approach to this problem. I do not think ferocity of sentence is the way to abate crime. I think what deters criminals—juveniles, adolescents or mature—is the certainty of apprehension. If you could raise the detection rate to 95 per cent, I think you could afford to abate the punishments very materially. But if you allow the detection rate to fall to 50 per cent or 60 per cent, it does not do the least good to increase the sentences to savage dimensions in order to relieve public indignation and resentment. I maintained in government and out of government that it is a wholly mistaken economy to withdraw Gardaí from intimate contact with the people. I believe at the root of it is a Finance desire for economy. I believe it is a bad economy, a shortsighted economy and, in the long run, no economy at all.

I have constantly made the case in government and out of government, that the whole objective of our policy should be to establish between the Garda Síochána and the people a relationship of intimate friendship. The way to do that is to keep the Garda in constant contact with the people. We are very fortunate in this country in that when the State was started, we got off on the right foot in the matter of establishing a police force that was unarmed, owing to the extraordinary foresight and wisdom of our first Minister for Justice, the late Mr. Kevin O'Higgins. He insisted on launching the Garda into the extraordinary tempestuous atmosphere then obtaining as an unarmed force and threw upon the original members of that Force the altogether intolerable burden of facing the problems they had to face unarmed. It was a decision for which all generations of our people should be forever grateful. They should be grateful to those who took it and to the members of the Garda Síochána who implemented it, some of whom are still serving in that Force, of which this country has every reason to be proud.

From that original decision and the Garda's effective implementation of it, there has grown up in this country in my life time a relationship between the police force and the people which any continental country would give their left arm to create. Go to practically any country on the continent and compare the attitude of the people to their police force with the attitude of our people to our police force. You will find there is quite a dramatic contrast. On the continent the people look on the police force as something in the nature of one of the hazards of life. Here it is true to say there are people who would regard the absence of the Garda as a hazard of our lives. The presence of the Garda is a reassurance and a certainty that the rights and privileges of the ordinary citizen will be adequately protected.

I cordially endorse what Deputy O'Higgins said when he declared that the function of the Garda was not primarily to detect crime but to prevent crime. I remember when I became Minister for Agriculture in 1948 there was an acute shortage of bacon. Bacon was cured under licence in order that there should be a fair distribution of the available supply. There broke out in this city a practice of the illegal curing of bacon, which gave rise to very undesirable consequences. I arranged with the then Minister for Justice that uniformed Gardaí would be put in the vicinity of premises where I suspected illegal activities to be going on. I remember the Garda authorities saying to me: "If you put uniformed men there, you will never catch them." I said: "I do not want to catch them. I want to fix them with notice that I am watching them. I want them to know from dawn of day to nightfall that there is a Garda standing there and, if they try to break the law, they will be promptly arrested." Within a fortnight, the whole thing was brought under control. If we had played a game of catch-as-catch-can, trying to catch them by Gardaí not in uniform, it would not have been brought under control.

I would urge on the Minister that the case made by Deputy Lynch and others is sound and valid. The surest method of preventing crime is to get contact between the Gardaí and the people. This method should be very acceptable to us for the historical reasons I have set out. The first and most urgent step towards a realisation of that is a reversal of the policy of the centralisation of the garda.

One of the most effective means of dealing with the problem to which Deputy Seán Dunne referred, the growing feeling, which undoubtedly there is, of apprehension in the city of Dublin and indeed in the country, that murder is not properly detected and grave crimes are passing without detection, would be to multiply the number of Gardaí on the beat. I make no apology for drawing again to the attention of the House the fact which is manifest to all who know the country that in rural Ireland if a crime is committed, within 24 hours, one of the Gardaí in the town or village is approached by somebody who knows him well and who tells him pretty clearly where to look for the perpetrator of the crime. The evidence of that is that detection of crime outside Dublin is 85 per cent.

Where there was a regular patrol of beats in this city, or indeed in the old days in London or in New York or in other big cities of the United States of America, it was notorious that if a crime was committed, there was a very high probability that the policeman who was familiar with the particular area in which the crime was committed would get pretty prompt information from somebody in the area who was in a position to inform him. Over and above that, a garda who is familiar with a particular restricted area of the city of Dublin gets to know practically everybody there, and if he sees strange people operating in the vicinity, just as happens in rural Ireland it almost automatically registers on his mind, and if subsequently an offence is committed which is not characteristic of the sort of people he knows live in the district, his mind immediately turns to the unusual characters he saw knocking around and there is immediately available to the police a very useful line on suspects and a description from a garda who is trained in the business of observing unfamiliar faces and figures.

I would urge strongly on the Minister to cause a re-examination of this whole policy, which I believe is primarily instigated by the Department of Finance with a view towards economy, and to revert to the more regular patrol of the city streets, albeit that such patrols are supported by the mobile forces which have been created. The point to be borne in mind is that useful as these mobile forces are, it is manifest that they are no substitute for the intimate contact which in our circumstances it is eminently practicable to maintain between the Garda Síochána and the ordinary public by adequate patrolling of beats in the city.

I wish to raise some other questions of a specific character. What is to be done about itinerants? I know the Minister has received the Report of the Commission on itinerancy. I think everybody is agreed that, particularly in the vicinity of Dublin, we cannot go on chasing the itinerants from Billy to Jack unless we are in a position to say to them at some stage: "There are suitable camping grounds with proper sanitary facilities on them and if you want to abide in the city environs, you must repair to these environs or else go out to the countryside and engage in your itinerant activity, but you may not constitute a menace to public health in the city when such camping places properly equipped are available." We seem to be in the ridiculous position that we tolerate the encampment of itinerants on eminently unsuitable sites which are notoriously a menace to public health. Then when some nuisance turns up from England and starts kicking up a row because he has elected to come and live in a caravan in circumstances into which we need not inquire too closely and it becomes necessary to take some positive action, this gentleman from England can hold up the community to odium by saying: "You are driving these poor itinerants from Billy to Jack and they have nowhere to go" and we have no answer to that.

We should not allow an outsider to put us in that position because it gives justification to what I think is very probably a fraudulent kind of agitation which this gentleman is organising for reasons best known to himself. However, a public nuisance of that kind sometimes serves a useful purpose. It brings vividly to our own eyes a shortcoming in ourselves. We should recognise that shortcoming which relates to the provision for itinerants who elect to camp during certain seasons of the year in or about the city of Dublin.

As regards the general question of itinerants in rural Ireland, I did not get very much light from the report, but as the situation stands in the country at present, the itinerants are no great affliction to anyone. They do put horses in people's fields which is a very exasperating thing to do. They do obstruct roads but if they keep off the trunk roads and make their encampments on county roads where motor traffic is not heavy and if they keep their animals under some kind of control, I believe the problem of the itinerants in rural Ireland is manageable.

The situation obtaining in Dublin in regard to itinerants is not edifying. It ought to be dealt with and I cannot see how it can be dealt with unless we are in a position to say to them that there are certain approved areas with proper accommodation where they can abide. Until we do that, we cannot go on shifting them from one illegal camping place to another. I would urge the Minister to take counsel with the Dublin Corporation, the Dublin County Council authorities and probably the authorities of Cork Corporation and of other cities to see that the anomaly which has existed in Dublin and its suburbs in regard to this problem will not be allowed to arise elsewhere.

I should like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that the report of the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána on crime is available only for the year ended September, 1962. Would it not be reasonable that the Commissioner's report for the year ended September, 1963, would be available to Deputies before the middle of February, 1964? Apparently it does not come out until April. It is not a very long document; it is not a very original document. It is mainly a collection of statistics. I suggest to the Minister that he might suggest to the authorities that they could, with advantage, get the circular out somewhat earlier.

I remember when I became Minister for Agriculture, I discovered that some of the reports emanating from that Department were two or three years in arrears, but when we put our minds to it, we were very easily able to bring them out, from that time forth, within the financial year after that to which the reports related.

The Minister says quite blandly:

As Deputies are aware, the fines-on-the-spot scheme came into operation in Dublin on 1st April, 1963, coinciding with the coming into operation of the new traffic bye-laws. It seems to be working very well.

It does not seem to me to be working very well. I met a distracted lady recently in a street in Dublin and she said she was parking her motor car in an illegal place. I said that was not proper procedure and she said: "It is all right. I have a bunch of red tickets and I put one on the car when I am parking it illegally. They never put on a second one." I also met other respectable citizens who when confronted with a parking ticket, said: "Sure, it is worth 10/- to park for eight hours. They never put on a second one. What about it?"

That is not the way to enforce the law. I do not think that is good citizenship. I think we ought to make laws which people can reasonably be expected to observe. It is no substitute for that to make laws which people habitually defy, and shrug their shoulders and ask: "Is it not worth it." It is very important to preserve the principle amongst law-abiding citizens that they do not want to come in conflict with the law, either through the medium of prosecution, or being fined on the spot. It would cause me very great concern, if I were fined for anything. I suppose the 10/- would not make very much difference one way or the other, but it would cause me considerable distress to have it on record that I came into conflict with the law, and I think that should be the case with most of us. This business of fining people on the spot, as it is called, is undermining that sentiment and that is something which is greatly to be deplored.

Over and above that, I want to remind the Minister that when the Road Traffic Bill was before this House on 1st March, 1961, as reported at column 1056, volume 186 of the Official Report I said:

I do not complain of the necessity for introducing somewhat more stringent parking regulations than we have had heretofore in the city of Dublin but you cannot divorce from your mind, if you are an ordinarily observant person, that there does appear to be operating in the streets of Dublin to-day a sort of general vigilance to detect any minor parking offences on the part of anybody and that the distribution of tickets and the rebuking of citizens for parking offences has become very much more frequent. Indeed, if one is driving a car oneself in the streets of Dublin to-day, where heretofore you parked your car—and unless you parked on a pedestrian crossing you had no reason to apprehend that you would get into trouble with the Guards— now you are almost afraid to park it at any pavement for fear this is an area in which you could come into collision with the Gardaí. For a great majority of people the very experience of being remonstrated with by the Gardaí for having broken the law is a disagreeable experience but if it happens again and again a new kind of atmosphere begins to arrive and the people begin to look upon the Gardaí as a menace; sections of the community begin to look upon the Gardaí as a menace who never looked on them in that way before.

Then I said that was something which should be watched and that we should bear in mind what was discovered in Great Britain by experience but too late—and I resume the quotation:

... that minor traffic offences of this kind would be better made the concern of a body of men whose sole function would be that of traffic warden. If Gardaí must be required to patrol the streets in far greater than normal numbers in order to enforce traffic regulations, I cannot see why it should not be possible to provide that, instead of multiplying the number of Gardaí to enforce these traffic regulations, you should have a body of traffic wardens whose concern it would be to enforce parking regulations or minor traffic regulations, such as not stopping at pedestrian crossings or matters of that kind.

I went on to say that you should not forbid the Gardaí to intervene in a manifest breach of the law, but that you should avoid—and I resume the quotation:

... associating the Gardaí in the mind of the ordinary law-abiding citizen with what is regarded unreasonably, I admit, but none the less in fact, as a kind of harassment and persecution.

I went on to say:

... as motor traffic tends to grow, as the necessity for more rigid traffic regulations grows in urban centres, we ought seriously to consider committing that responsibility to traffic wardens who will not wear the uniform of the Gardaí and who will not be directly associated in the minds of the ordinary public with that force.

I want to renew that representation to the Minister. I think there is a very grave danger arising of a growing number of people saying it would be better for the Garda to go and find a murderer in Ballybough than to be prosecuting motor car drivers in the streets of Dublin. That would be a very undesirable atmosphere to grow up. Our concern, and the concern of all responsible citizens, ought to be to support and assist the Garda in the discharge of their duties, but the multiplicity of minor remonstrations which the Garda are called upon to make to respectable citizens in respect of traffic offences, threatens seriously to arouse, between the most respectable elements in the community and the Garda, a mutual atmosphere of suspicion and resentment.

I renew my representations to the Minister that he should employ in controlling city traffic infringements, a body of traffic wardens who would do the bulk of this kind of supervision of the average respectable citizen who infringes the traffic laws in minor ways by parking offences. Not only would that remove a cause of friction between the public and the Garda, but it would create the additional advantage that if a traffic warden conducted himself too officiously, or unreasonably, the responsible citizen in that situation could turn to the Garda on duty and say: "Look, this traffic warden is acting up; he is misbehaving," and you would restore the Garda to their proper status, that of being the friend and protector of the law-abiding citizen rather than a uniformed harassment which some people tend to look upon them as being at the present time, because this unsuitable duty is being thrust upon them. It is certainly true that, if relieved of those trivial duties, more Gardaí would be available for patrolling the beat in the city of Dublin, for the collection of information, and for the prevention of crime which is the principal function they ought to discharge.

There are certain other specific matters I want to mention. I cannot be critical of the Garda. I find that, as a whole, they are a splendid body of men. I want to draw the Minister's attention to something which I think is deserving of attention. In my experience of mankind, I find that you get much more out of people, as a general rule, by indicating your appreciation of their good performance, rather than habitually nagging at them over any defects in their efforts to carry out their duties. I saw an article in last week's Sunday Independent descriptive of the arrival in this country of a foreigner who had taken out Irish citizenship. He described how he moved into his house and the various processes which a stranger in taking up residence here has to go through. Finally, he said: “I conceived it to be my duty to go to the Garda to notify them of my having taken up residence in their area. When I went in and produced my passport and told the young Garda who was at the desk what I had come for, he said: `You are not in the right place'.”

This man said: "I felt a bit crestfallen. I was not very clear where he wanted me to go, when a sergeant came along and said: `That is not the way to talk when a stranger comes in. The first thing you should say is: "You are welcome." When you have said that, then find out what he wants and see if you can help him'." That good sergeant had more understanding of public relations and tourism than many highly-paid officials of the Tourist Board. Any of us with experience of travelling on the continent will know what an ordeal it is to batter your way through police regulations. If you are not carrying a diplomatic passport, it is as much as your life is worth to go to a police station and unless you are a tough customer and prepared to stand on your rights, you are likely to get a pretty rough time—indeed, in any circumstances you are likely to get a rough time. That Garda sergeant understood very fully the atmosphere of apprehension a stranger feels in the presence of a police force with which he is unfamiliar and with that gesture, in my opinion, he made a most valuable and significant contribution to the whole attitude of the public service in co-operating in the desirable aim of promoting a great industry.

I took steps to see that the tourist authority would acknowledge that and I think it is a matter the Minister might correctly draw the attention of the Commissioner to so that we could multiply the number of public servants who appreciate the difference a little act of supererogation of that kind makes. It would be greatly to the advantage of the community as a whole. I think the Minister will agree that this kind of thing happens very often and nobody says anything about it. I think they should be mentioned, and I do not apologise for reproducing it here. I remember when I was Minister for Agriculture going to Dún Laoghaire at nine o'clock at night and going to an hotel there for dinner and finding one of the civil servants of my Department there. I asked him what he was doing and he told me that there was a party over from Germany buying horses, that he thought it would be a bit lonely for them and that he came out to show them around the city. He knew that this would help to promote the sale of horses. It is these small acts of supererogation that distinguish the true public servants from those who are concerned to do no more than what they are paid for.

I want to mention another matter that is causing very grave concern to me and to other people. I shall mention it on the Minister's Estimate because I think it is as suitable as any other. It is not right for us to close our eyes to the grave social problem that exists in respect of young boys and girls who emigrate from here to Britain. This matter has been brought very much before the public eye by a benevolent gentleman named Mr. Hauser. I am sure he is a very well-meaning man and believes himself to be very highly trained and experienced but I think he gets the facts of the situation a bit out of proportion and possily overstates the case. The fact remains that a great many young people going out of this country find themselves in an environment to which it is very hard for them to adjust themselves and, as a result, a great many social tragedies supervene.

Boys get into trouble and end up in jail; girls get into trouble, sometimes end up in jail and sometimes on the streets. That is very tragic. When I ask myself how are we to help, I consider the first line of defence is the parents. We should all concern ourselves in our own neighbourhood to persuade parents not to let young girls especially go to England if they are not going to friends. They should have a home to go to. Girls going to England should go to relatives and preferably should have the prospect of employment before going. The plain truth is that for young girls to go to industrial centres in England without suitable employment and without homes, aunts or cousins or trustworthy neighbours prepared to receive them is to take an appalling risk. Our first duty is to bring home that fact to the parents of these girls here in Ireland. Despite all we can do at the family level of exhortation and warning, a great many of these boys and girls are going and may continue to go.

I wonder if the Minister for Justice is responsible?

I was about to make a suggestion. The great difficulty here is the tendency for everybody to say: "It is not my responsibility." Everybody says that what goes on in England is not his responsibility. When I reflect on this problem, I find it very hard to propose any constructive solution but I think there is a solution worth considering. I think the great desideratum is to make contact with them and the great problem is that most of them, when they have got into trouble, do not want to have contact made with them. They want to disappear. They have made this catastrophic choice, very often through no fault of their own, and they are ashamed. They cannot feel that people want to help them to put their mistakes behind them and get back on their feet again. They recoil from help. How do you deal with that situation? I often wonder if we could not emulate in some way the expedient conceived by the late President Kennedy as administered by Sergeant Shriver, in the Sons of Peace, a corps of voluntary social workers who would undertake to go to some of the centres in England where this problem is most acute and perhaps take employment themselves at the kind of work these girls and boys do.

The Legion of Mary do that.

I know. There are a number of voluntary bodies doing it but I think their resources are strained far beyond their capacity and the peace corps concept envisages young girls undertaking assignments of this kind with no prospects of material reward but at least they would have board and lodging paid for. If young American kids go to Peru, Bolivia, to Africa or to other places to help the people in those areas, they get little or no pay, but they are provided and there is some system of administration. I think the Legion of Mary and other bodies are doing all in their power but simply cannot be everywhere.

I think the London police courts, to take the crudest end of the problem, simply have not got enough probation officers to deal with this problem and I suppose they are inclined to say: "Why should we be breaking our necks to provide probation officers to deal with these minor offences?" and they do not unduly concern themselves. I am not altogether sure that the probation services that are available and which are designed for British conditions may best suit the kind of problem we have in mind.

So far as boys are concerned, I think we understand their problem. Their problem is largely one of drink, largely one of loneliness and desire for company which leads them to the public house and can produce ridiculous results. I think I described in the House before the problem of the London Metropolitan Police finding a group of Irish chaps kicking up a row and singing outside a public house in the East End of London and, deeming it desirable in order to enjoin discretion on them, sending for a motor Black Maria which they brought down to act as a warning that they would all be packed away if they did not behave, whereupon 15 or 20 of these young lads, who were much more cheerful than they ought to be, advanced on the Black Maria, laid hands upon it, combined to say "Heave ho" and turned it over. The poor metropolitan police had to send for men to get their Black Maria back on its wheels again. They were very incensed and outraged at this conduct and, of course, it was very unseemly conduct but, from our point of view, knowing the mentality of our people, it was not criminal conduct. It is irresponsible conduct and it is reprehensible, no doubt, but it arises from a kind of irresponsible joie de vivre which manifests itself in that way because these lads are divorced from the background with which they are familiar and they are in a new background of this depersonalised materialist civilisation which a great industrial city presents and so their conduct becomes irrational.

I wonder if such a peace corps as I have in mind might not provide voluntary personnel which in consultation with London magistrates could supplement the work of the probation officers. I can imagine that if we had such a peace corps as I envisage the girls who would be prepared to participate in it working with experienced members of the Legion of Mary or other social workers in England whose resources are now strained, could help a great deal not only in locating these girls but in keeping in contact with them. I think that is the all-important thing—keeping in contact with them, not letting them drift out of human knowledge until they turn up as statistics in a prison return.

I do not underestimate the formidable difficulty of this problem but I am sure the Legion of Mary do not want any kind of financial assistance. It is quite foreign to their activity to accept that from a State source but it would be a great blessing to them if they had a substantial addition to the available personnel for the kind of work they are trying to do.

I do not by any means say that this would be certainly a success. I am obliged to make this confession. When President Kennedy first formulated the concept of a peace corps I thought he had taken leave of his senses. I thought it was the daftest proposition I had ever heard. The extraordinary thing is, it worked, and a great many people who derided the thought when he first formulated it in the United States of America have come to recognise that it has worked and to the great advantage of those to whose relief these boys and girls went and to the great advantage of the boys and girls who were being induced to participate in it.

I cannot say that I am fully convinced that a similar device would work in the situation with which we find ourselves confronted at the present time but I am bound to say that I think the time has passed when we can close our eyes to the problem that exists. The time has passed when we can claim the right to wash our hands of it on the grounds that the tragedy is proceeding outside the jurisdiction of the State. I think the time is overdue when, if there is no better suggestion than the one I am now advancing, we ought to take steps along those lines or at least consult those who are in the field in the industrial cities of England either as probation officers or members of the Legion of Mary or other voluntary bodies as to whether this might not help to resolve a problem which should be a cause of very great concern to us all.

There are some details in relation to the Minister's speech to which I should like to refer before I conclude. In many ways the Minister's Estimate is one of the most exciting and important from many points of view because it deals with the prison population, both juveniles and adults. I notice that the Minister has spoken about the proposals to rebuild and develop prisons. Have we considered establishing in this country the open prison? I am not impressed with the idea that everybody is too soft with prisoners. I think the vast majority of prisoners going into prisons in this country are not criminals in the full sense of the term at all. I do not think we know the real problem of criminality such as they have to struggle with in Britain or the United States of America. I think our principal task in prisons is the redemption of the people who find their way into them. Now that the Minister is going to take steps to improve the accommodation in Mountjoy and Portlaoise, I wonder has he considered establishing an open prison?

We are working towards it in the parole system. We let people out to work during the day and they come back at night, which is fundamentally the same idea.

That is fundamentally the same idea but in England they have set up deliberately prisons of an entirely new design founded on that general principle, which have operated to relieve pressure on the existing anti-deluvian institutions and I would like to think that, if there was to be any replacement of existing penal institutions in this country, serious consideration should be given to the provision of at least one experimental open prison where that kind of treatment could be pursued and the prisoners prepared for early return to normal life.

I see the Minister speaks on page 22, paragraph (m) of proposals for the accommodation of the boys at St. Patrick's Institution. I want to say quite freely that, with the best intentions in the world, the Borstal was wound up in Clonmel and moved up to the city by Mountjoy. I think that was a mistaken decision and I am glad that we are now considering steps to end that position. That decision was taken when I was a member of the Government. I think it was a mistaken decision and I would be happy to think that plans were going forward to remove the Borstal institution to new premises. I gather from page 22 of the Minister's statement that there are plans going forward to that end. I understood that plans were well under way for the erection of an institution somewhere out in the vicinity of Lucan.

That is for Marlboro House.

That is for Marlboro House? Is there going to be a new institution built to accommodate the boys in the other place? I think Deputy Flanagan was proposing that we should take over Portlaoise and convert it. I would be loth to see that done. I do not agree with Deputy Flanagan about that. I think the important thing is to get Borstal youths away from a prison atmosphere in so far as we can, fully aware of the fact that you do not find angels in Borstals.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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