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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 25 Feb 1964

Vol. 207 No. 11

Vote 43—Transport and Power (Resumed).

When I was speaking on the last occasion, I had almost completed an examination of the increases and decreases under the various subheads of the Estimate. A sum of £10,300 in respect of electrical power supply for the operation of radio equipment was transferred from the Vote for the Department of Posts and Telegraphs—Vote 46, Subhead C —to this Department's Vote—Subhead K.

The provisions for Constructional Works etc. at Shannon, Dublin and Cork Airports—Subheads G.2, G.3 and G.4—in the 1962-63 Estimates are incorporated under one Subhead G.2 in 1963-64. Maintenance Works, Supplies, etc., at Shannon and Cork Airports— Subheads H.1 and J.1 in 1962-63 Estimates—are provided for under one Subhead H.1 in the 1963-64 Estimates. Fuel, Water, Light and Cleaning at Shannon and Cork Airports—Subheads H.2 and J.2 in 1962-63 Estimates —are provided for under one Subhead H.2 in the 1963-64 Estimates.

Deputies will have noted the changes in passenger and freight movements at Shannon Airport in 1962; a relatively stable position in respect of passengers and a reduction of 12 per cent in total freight traffic. However, recent revision of the air freight break-bulk structure will tend to make the shipping by air of smaller cargo units more attractive than hitherto. The figures for the year 1963 show that terminal freight has increased by 16 per cent which includes an increase of 6 per cent for Industrial Estate freight. Though the number of transit passengers through the airport continued to fall considerably, terminal passengers again increased by 22,000 or 13 per cent over 1962.

Work is in progress on the erection of a new control tower accommodating air traffic control and radio service staffs which will be more centrally situated in relation to the jet runways than the existing control tower. New buildings and constructional work recently completed at the airport include a new turf-fired central boilerhouse, a store to meet the requirements of the expanding mail order business of the Sales and Catering Service and a new general purposes building, including accommodation for an automatic telephone exchange, an extension of the apron, the provision of blast fences and the extension of the water supply.

The turnover of the Sales and Catering Service amounted to about £1,340,000 for the year ended 31st January, 1964, an increase of about £60,000 over the previous year.

There has been no extensive development of navigational aids or communication facilities at our airports since the opening in October, 1962, of the new Precision Approach Radar Unit at Shannon. However, a number of major installations have been approved and are scheduled for installation over the next few years. The overall deficiency at Shannon Airport in 1962/63 was about £383,000, or about £98,000 more than that for 1961/62. Details have been provided in the notes.

The growth of traffic at Dublin Airport in 1962 showed a recession, the increase in the number of passengers being only 2 per cent compared with increases of anything between 10 per cent and 20 per cent during previous years. It is heartening, however, to report that a recovery has taken place in 1963 and that progress at the normal rate is being resumed. Passenger figures for 1963 were 12 per cent higher than for 1962, and for the first time over one million passengers— in fact 1,104,634—passed through the airport in that year.

Freight handled at the airport in 1962 increased by 13 per cent, and in 1963 by a further 25 per cent to a total of 20,298 metric tons. This figure does not include the weight of cars on the vehicle ferry service. There was no air car ferry service in 1962. Because of its importance to the development of tourism, I requested Aer Lingus to undertake a study of the matter and the result is that the company operated services this year to Britain and the Continent using two DC4 (ATL 98) Carvair aircraft. In all, 3,612 cars weighing 3,569 metric tons were handled at Dublin Airport during the six months May to October, 1963.

Between 1955 and 1962, passenger and freight traffic at Dublin Airport had more than doubled and indeed 1963 had almost trebled the 1958 totals. This upward trend is expected to continue and a scheme has been prepared to provide accommodation to meet developments in the foreseeable future. Portion of this scheme has been implemented by the erection of two pier buildings. I hope shortly to be able to publish sketch plans to indicate the form which this overall development might take.

Work will commence shortly on the construction of two additional taxiways and an extension of the apron at Dublin Airport, for speeding up landing and take-off. A new lighting system is being installed on the main runway.

There was an overall deficiency at Dublin Airport in 1962/63 of about £183,000 or about £85,000 less than for 1961-62. Full details have been supplied in the notes.

In 1962 Cork Airport had 77,650 passengers and 330 metric tons of freight. In 1963 the airport had 95,909 passengers and 372 metric tons of freight, being increases of 24 per cent and 11 per cent respectively. These figures are very encouraging. In 1963 Aer Lingus operated a vehicle ferry service from Cork to Bristol at a frequency of two services weekly during the peak period; 678 cars were ferried between Cork and Britain in the six months May to October, 1963. The freight figures mentioned do not include 651 metric tons, being the weight of cars on the air car-ferry service. The major constructional works at the airport have been completed. Airport field lighting, a car park, a cycle park and internal access roads have also been provided and navigational and other aids and facilities are in operation. The overall deficiency of revenue for Cork Airport in the period was about £187,000. Details can be found in the notes.

Net receipts from the passenger service charge, which was introduced at Irish airports in April, 1962, amounted to £165,000 within the last financial year. This was £15,000 more than the estimated figure. An examination of costs at European airports shows that productivity at Irish airports is reasonably satisfactory.

The Aer Lingus fleet was recently improved by the addition of two Carvair ATL 98 aircraft. I have already dealt with the utilisation of this aircraft. Because of rising demands, the company have been authorised to purchase a third Carvair at an estimated cost of £270,000. The amount will be subscribed by the Exchequer in the form of equity capital. The Carvairs will be used for the transport of cargo and horses as well as for car-ferry purposes.

The company have had to face substantial increases in capacity by British European Airways on the three main routes—Dublin/London, Dublin/Manchester and Dublin/ Birmingham.

In the year 1962/63, Aer Lingus earned a total revenue of £6.18 million compared with £5.68 million in 1961/ 62 but expenditure increased to £6.24 million from £5.63 million so that an operating loss of £63,000 was sustained compared with an operating profit of £56,000 in 1961/62 or a worsening of £119,000. The increase in traffic, particularly on the cross-Channel routes, was not in accordance with expectations and, apart from the resulting shortfall in revenue, expenditure was higher because the company's organisation was geared to a greater volume of traffic than that realised. The increasing competition from BEA on the company's cross-channel routes was a contributory factor in the disappointing traffic growth.

The company are experiencing difficulty in holding their position on the continental routes where almost all their competitors are operating jets. In order to enable the company to compete successfully on the Continent, therefore, the purchase of four short-haul jet aircraft has been authorised at a cost of £5 million, of which £2 million will be provided by the Exchequer in the form of equity capital, the balance of the cost to be met either from the company's own resources or by borrowing. The aircraft will be brought into operation in the summer of 1965. Aer Lingus will be stepping up promotion of travel from the continent to coincide with the faster services provided.

During 1962, for the second year in succession, Aerlínte had the highest load factor on the North Atlantic. They were in the forefront again for 1963. The total revenue earned by Aerlínte in 1962/63 was £5.26 million as against £4.17 million in 1961/62 and while expenditure also rose—to £4.80 million from £3.97 million — the operating profit at £466,000 showed a substantial increase over the profit of £203,000 earned in 1961/62. While the company's progress has been very satisfactory, the indications are that it is reaching the limit of its progress with its existing equipment. Accordingly, in order to ensure its continued progress the company is acquiring— without recourse to State borrowing—a fourth Boeing aircraft at an estimated cost of £3m., including supporting equipment and development expenses.

While the day to day operation of the air companies must be a matter solely for the companies themselves, projects for new capital expenditure by the companies on aircraft and equipment are closely scrutinised and regular meetings are held with the chairman and management of the companies with a view to maintaining the necessary liaison.

Aer Lingus and Aerlínte are being required to finance a substantial proportion of new capital expenditure from their own resources; out of £10 million for additional equipment and building the State is providing £2.27 million by way of equity capital. The failure to remunerate capital must be considered in the context of difficulties facing airlines generally. Preliminary figures for the International Civil Aviation Organisation for 1962 indicate that the world airlines made an estimated operating profit of only 0.9 per cent in 1962 while there was a 2 per cent loss in 1961. The permanent difficulty faced by Aer Lingus is the very short length of journeys, the average mileage being 233 which is one of the lowest averages operated by any air company.

Certain costs such as landing fees, etc. remain constant whether the stage performed by the aircraft is long or short. I am glad to say, however, that there has been a very considerable upsurge in the gross receipts of both Aer Lingus and Aerlinte in the first six months of this year compared with the corresponding period of last year. If no unforeseen adverse circumstances occur, Aerlínte at least should be able to make a considerable contribution over and above normal depreciation. It is difficult to compare the economics of different air companies, as factors such as length of route can significantly affect the results. In so far, however, as it has been possible to compare the operations of Aer Lingus with those of other international air companies of a similar character, I have satisfied myself that Aer Lingus has a relatively good efficiency of operation.

The Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited continues its work of developing Shannon as a major international airport by encouraging all activities likely to contribute to the welfare of the airport and with particular emphasis on the stimulation of industrial and trading activity at the airport.

The grant-in-aid provision in the Vote for 1963/64 is £250,000 compared with £330,000 in 1962/63. This money is required to enable grants to be made to industrialists towards the cost of machinery and training of workers and also to meet the running expenses of the company. In addition to these voted moneys, £1¼ million has been provided in the Capital Budget to meet the share capital and repayable advances expenditures of the company on the Industrial and Housing Estates: this compares with £988,000 issued to the company in 1962/63.

The company continues to make excellent progress and the best evidence of this lies in the growth in employment on the Industrial Estate from 1,350 to 1,952 persons in the year ended 31st December, 1963. In my Second Reading speech on the recent Act increasing the limits on the company's finances, I gave a comprehensive review of the company's activities and, in approving of the measure, the House expressed its satisfaction with the achievements of the company to date and confidence in its continued progress. Proposals for promising new industries are under examination by the company and the volume of inquiries from warehousing interests is also encouraging.

Inasmuch as the company's finances are provided from State funds, the policy and projects of the company receive my close attention. Capital moneys and grants are provided only on the basis of foreseeable demand, the objective being not to impede natural growth and, at the same time, not to outstrip the public demand.

Industrial development at Shannon is making a major contribution to the national economy. It is providing employment for significant numbers of our people at reasonable cost to the public purse in an environment where modern industrial skills and techniques are applied for the purpose of manufacturing goods for export with all the resulting benefits. I am sure the House will agree that the results achieved thoroughly justify the investment already made by the State in the Industrial and Housing Estate at Shannon and fully warrant the continued expenditure of State funds including the grants provided yearly from the Vote.

The depression in world shipping which commenced in 1957 following the boom caused by the Suez crisis reached a new low during 1962 when dry-cargo tramp shipping freights dropped to the lowest levels recorded since the last war. The monthly average of the British Chamber of Shipping freight index for that year was only 89.1 compared with 106.8 in 1961, and 100 in 1960. Since July, 1962, there has been a slow recovery, but with the present world-wide demand from the Far East, Russia and Europe for grain from the American Continent, there has recently been a considerable rise in freight rates and there is some reason to hope that the present revival will last through the winter and possibly later. The basic cause of the post-Suez depression has been an excessive supply of tonnage which has been aggravated by the advent of the large bulk carriers and large oil tankers, which can operate at rates which are grossly uneconomic for the older, smaller vessels.

The position facing shipowners is so serious that an international tonnage stabilisation scheme for tankers has come into force and efforts are being made for the introduction of a similar scheme for dry-cargo tonnage. Under these schemes compensation would be paid to participating shipowners in respect of laid-up tonnage and would thus encourage shipowners to lay up ships and to scrap older ships rather than operate them at uneconomic rates. The efficiency of these schemes will depend to the extent to which shipowners support them.

Inevitably Irish Shipping Ltd. was affected by the severe setback in freight rates in 1962 and had to lay up some of its vessels for some months. Total cargo carried during the year was 1,485,000 tons, a decrease of 7 per cent on the average monthly carrying for the 1961/62 period, which was due to a number of factors, including the lay-up of the ships. The net result is that, for the first year since 1949, the company did not cover operating expenses in 1962/63, and suffered a deficit of £36,700 on working account. Depreciation of the fleet for the year was £825,000 and the commercial loss, therefore, amounted to £838,000. The results for 1962/63 are disappointing but reflect the circumstances in the world shipping market. I am glad to say that the prospects for 1963/64 are somewhat brighter. Earnings during the first half of the year followed the pattern of recent years but, because of the current upward trend in freight rates, a significant improvement is expected during the latter half of the year. If the recent increases in freight and charter hire rates are maintained, it is estimated that the company's profits for the year—1963/64—will exceed any of the annual profits since 1956/57.

Irish Shipping Ltd. now have a dry-cargo fleet of 17 vessels totalling 146,400 tons deadweight. Four of these vessels are in the 15,000 ton deadweight range; two are conventional vessels and two are bulk carriers. These four vessels, all delivered within the past two years, are of modern design and will, it is hoped, prove a profitable investment even in the present highly competitive conditions in the world shipping industry.

As indicated in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion the target of 200,000 tons deadweight for the dry-cargo fleet of Irish Shipping Ltd. has been re-examined in the light of the increased speed and efficiency of modern vessels and of changes in the national requirements of essential commodities since the target was originally calculated. It has been decided that the current dry-cargo fleet is adequate to meet strategic requirements and that additions to the fleet will be considered when commercial considerations so justify. The possibility of negotiating remunerative long-term charters for additions to the tanker fleet are being actively explored and new tankers will be considered if such charters are assured.

The most important single development in recent years in relation to cross-Channel passenger services has been the decision of British Railways, announced in July last, to introduce a car-ferry vessel. This follows prolonged pressure by my Department and by Bord Fáilte. I am confident that this new facility will lead to a rapid expansion of the number of people bringing cars to this country. British Railways will be replacing the Princess Maud with the new ship, while the Commissioners of Public Works will provide the car terminal at Dún Laoghaire.

The number of cars brought to this country by all the shipping lines by sea during June, July and August last, was 14,096, compared with 11,299 in the same period in 1962, an increase of 24 per cent. A survey which has been carried out shows that even with all the existing and projected car carrying facilities, potential demand will still outstrip capacity.

Improvements in the accommodation for travellers using cross-Channel sea services continue to be made. Additional seating has been provided on British Railways vessels, the aim being to have the number of seats equal to the maximum passenger complement. On the British and Irish Steam Packet Company vessels, canvas and perspex deck shelters and extra seating have been installed, giving additional covered deck space.

The provision of £150,000 for grants for harbour improvement works covers works in progress or works expected to commence shortly. The principal current improvement schemes are those for Galway, Drogheda and Wicklow, for which grants totalling £340,000, £175,000 and £100,000, respectively, have been approved. Grants of £15,000 each have been approved for Ballina and Sligo. The Galway Harbour Improvement Scheme was officially inaugurated in September, 1963, and work is now in progress.

In addition to the grants for harbour improvement works from the Vote for Transport and Power, there is also a provision under non-voted capital services, comprising a total of £79,940, for works at Dublin and Limerick, for which grants from the National Development Fund were approved. These commitments were incurred before the winding-up of the Fund on 31st March, 1957.

For many years the trend of trade has been towards the larger ports particularly on the east coast and at the present time the trade of all the west coast ports accounts for no more than 5 per cent of the country's total seaborne trade. This trend is due to the growing average size of vessels and to the increasing importance attached to speed of delivery and frequency of service and may, therefore, be expected to continue. State assistance must be regarded as an exceptional measure and reserved for essential and productive schemes, the full cost of which cannot be met locally.

I spoke last year about the prevalence of restrictive and out-moded practices in cargo handling at Irish ports. It cannot be too much emphasised that continued improvement in working conditions at the ports, as indeed in all industry, is dependent on increasing productivity and the use of modern methods. I am glad to note that over the past twelve months improved methods of working have been introduced in a number of instances with the agreement of the interests concerned.

There is an increasing use at our ports of containers, unit loads, cranes, grabs, fork-lift trucks and other such facilities, leading to higher efficiency. Concurrently with this movement, the possibilities of introducing decasualisation and avoiding redundancy among port workers are receiving close attention. Following the settlement of the container dispute at Dublin, the method of employment and payment of cross-Channel dockers at the port has been improved. I understand that the possibility of achieving similar conditions for the deep-sea dockers at Dublin is currently being investigated. The port authorities of Cork, Waterford and Drogheda have introduced simplified charges designed to facilitate the growth of container traffic.

I may note as a recent indication of progress in productivity the setting up of permanent machinery at Dublin, arising out of the recent work stoppage at the docks, designed to resolve in an amicable fashion any future causes of complaint. Another landmark is the agreement recently concluded at Waterford between British Railways and the ATGWU, under which dockers will load and discharge ships under work study and bonus incentive conditions. As a result the company will realise economies, but no workers will be displaced, all will take home more pay, will secure improved holiday conditions and will qualify for free travel facilities. This is stated to be the first occasion on which work study techniques have been applied to dock work in Ireland.

Turning now to tourism, I am proposing that the provision under Subhead F.I for Bord Fáilte's main Grant-in-Aid for this year should be £954,000. This provision shows an increase of nearly £200,000 over the amount voted last year and it reflects a general increase in the Board's activities.

Under Subhead F.2 the Board are being allocated £200,000 towards the development of major tourist resorts. This provision is more than double the amount spent last year. This money is applied in grants for basic development works and necessary amenity facilities at selected centres subject to a minimum 20 per cent local contribution. The River Shannon has been added to the list of selected areas and Bord Fáilte plan to spend approximately £100,000 on grants for the development of the river and its lakes for recreational purposes over a five-year period.

The third Subhead relating to tourism is Subhead F.3 under which funds are provided for the various grant schemes for accommodation development. The provision under this Subhead for the current year is £315,000, an increase of £52,000 over last year. Bord Fáilte grants cover only 20 per cent of approved works and every £1 spent by the Board represents at least £4 spent by the hotel industry itself.

The total estimate under these three Subheads amounts to £1,469,000 and though the provision is moderate, it is the largest sum ever provided by the Government for the promotion of tourism. According to the Organisation for European Cooperation and Development, tourist receipts represent 12 to 14 per cent of total current receipts in Switzerland, Italy and Greece, 16 per cent in Ireland and 31 per cent in Spain. I am confident that the Dáil will endorse the proposal to provide these increased and productively directed funds for Bord Fáilte. A detailed statement of our tourist earnings and of the progress that has been made in recent years is contained in the notes which I have had circulated in connection with the Estimates for my Department.

Bord Fáilte have estimated that in the first nine months of the year there was an increase of 4½ per cent in total passenger arrivals. There were also substantial increases in car traffic. Some 3,500,000 car crossings were made southwards across the Border in the first nine months, an increase of over 800,000 or 30 per cent on the same period in 1962. The percentage increase in direct car shipments to Ireland, by sea and air, during the first nine months was over 30 per cent while the increase in August alone was 35 per cent. The indifferent summer weather militated against good business at many resorts but Bord Fáilte have provisionally estimated that the total income from tourism including foreign receipts of Irish air companies amounted to £55 million. Should this estimate be confirmed, it will represent an increase of £2½ million over 1962.

I would like to refer briefly to an important development during the year in the organisation of the tourist industry which I asked Bord Fáilte to initiate, that is, the formation of tourist regions. Since taking over responsibility for tourism, I have been concerned with the question of how best to organise and utilise the knowledge, experience and general tourist activities of local interests throughout the country. I could not help feeling that we were not getting full value for this local effort and application, and I felt that more could be achieved if local authorities were enabled to contribute more directly towards the promotion of tourism in their own area and also if the efforts of the various groups were co-ordinated both with other groups in their regions and with the overall national effort of Bord Fáilte. Each of the new regions will have its own tourist organisation representative of local authorities, local development groups and the business and commercial life. The organisation will receive financial support from the local authorities, from Bord Fáilte and will need considerable sums relative to the tourist turnover in the area to enable it to employ a full-time executive officer and, under Bord Fáilte guidance and co-ordination, to engage in publicity, in the servicing of visitors, the provision of entertainments and amenities in co-operation with other local bodies and the development of local resources. I am confident that these measures provide a solid foundation for the future expansion of the tourist industry.

The emergence of the regional organisations will mean that in future the members and Directors of the Irish Tourist Association will apply their experience and know-how at the regional rather than the national level. I should, at this point, like to pay a tribute to the Association, which has since its inception in 1925, made a most vital contribution to our tourist industry. The establishment of the Association was, indeed, the first attempt on a national basis to develop the tourist industry in this country. I am glad—though not surprised in view of the Association's past record—to find the Association giving their co-operation in the measures at present being taken to organise the industry on a regional basis. Their valuable experience will be of considerable help in this sphere and the new regional structure will provide a framework within which the ITA members and directors will continue to serve the community.

May I repeat that the over-all publicity from local sources whether by hotels individually or in groups, or by other local interests has increased in the past few years, the best examples being the more successful fishing development associations. Nevertheless, the grand total of regional tourist expenditure is far too modest compared with that of Bord Fáilte and, as a percentage of the tourist turnover in any area, it does not yet compare with regional expenditure in Europe.

One well-known region in Ireland spent considerable sums on a direct general tourist drive through newspaper advertising followed by brochure distribution. The cost per reply worked out at approximately 5/-, a worthwhile investment. The existing very active development associations have proved to me that the single most important new influence in increasing tourist traffic will be regional initiative and drive. Killarney is competing as much with, say, Lucerne as with Switzerland in general. That is the lesson to be learned.

One of the biggest problems which we, and indeed most European countries are encountering is the question of extending the holiday season and the associated problem of relieving the congestion in travel facilities and holiday accommodation which takes place in July and August each year. Approximately half the total annual bednights are recorded in the three-month period 1st July to 30th September. The conditions created by this high demand and the difficulty frequently experienced in obtaining suitable accommodation tend to deter visitors and to reduce our potential tourist income.

The timing of the August Monday holiday has, I believe, a considerable influence on our holiday patterns as many people tend to take their annual vacation around this holiday. One of the ways in which we could lengthen our holiday season would possibly be a re-timing of both the Whit and August Bank Holidays. I have, accordingly, with the approval of the Government, established a Commission of Inquiry to look into the timing of our public and bank holidays generally with a view particularly to easing the problems I have mentioned. I trust that all interests connected with the tourist industry or otherwise affected by the question will make known their views to the Commission.

Apart from this, attention is also being given to other measures to extend the season. The Bord Fáilte June Holiday Plan has met with some success in developing holiday traffic outside the peak period. Festivals and conference business are also, of course, valuable sources of off season tourist revenue.

Angling of all kinds—sea, game and coarse—has now developed into a major tourist attraction mainly due to the five year Fishing Development Plan which was undertaken in the period 1957 to 1962 by Bord Fáilte and the Inland Fisheries Trust. A new five-year angling plan is now under way under which Bord Fáilte will be responsible for the provision of accommodation and other fishing amenities as well as overseas promotion work while the Trust will undertake fisheries development work. A Special Committee of the Board and the Trust will ensure co-ordination between the various elements of the programme.

I would like, at this point, to refer to another potential major attraction for visitors, that is, our wealth of monuments and historic buildings. A certain amount has already been done towards the preservation and presentation of these monuments as a tourist attraction and the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance is at present examining the whole question of future policy in this field.

The target set by the Government for the tourist industry under the new Programme for Economic Expansion is a doubling of 1960 earnings by 1970. The achievement of this target will require the maximum effort on the part of everyone connected with tourism.

Early this year I asked Bord Fáilte to make a fresh and vigorous approach to the complex job of evaluating the potential traffic available from the middle income classes in Great Britain with particular reference to the fact that of the 3 million English people who go abroad for holidays—some 320,000 came here—nearly 50 per cent prefer to take a package holiday.

At the same time, in connection with the small farm areas, examination is taking place of what particular steps can be taken to induce more tourist activities in these areas. Linked with these questions is that of providing far more entertainment for visitors, increasing the amenities for young people and stepping up interest in special tours and presenting our ancient monuments to tourists in a more attractive manner.

I have given special consideration to the question of accommodation to suit the needs of middle and lower income groups. Well run guest houses offer a good "second string" of accommodation to complement hotels and are favoured by many people because of their informal homely atmosphere and their moderate prices. Until now, financial assistance for guest house development has consisted of guaranteed loans with grants to meet interest charges but I feel that there is now a case for extending to guest houses more direct incentives in the form of cash grants for extension and improvement works. Full details of these new grants have not yet been worked out but they are likely to follow closely the existing 20 per cent grants for hotels. It will probably be necessary to confine these grants to premises providing at least ten guest bedrooms but the exact details of these new grants and of other extensions of the financial incentives for holiday accommodation development will be announced in due course by Bord Fáilte.

All this is in the context of the 1960-1970 Economic Programme. Some proposals are already under examination, others will shortly emerge but I can say that a fundamental reappraisal of the whole tourist potential and measures required to stimulate growth has been under way for some time.

International travel for holiday and recreation, for cultural reasons, as well as for business purposes, is extremely sensitive to factors over which we have no control—the degree of prosperity in various countries, the international political situation, weather conditions and changes in holiday fashions. In addition we must bear in mind that every year more of our own people are in a position to take holidays overseas and while this is a happy sign of rising standards at home it does affect the net value of the return from travel and tourism. Moreover, we cannot expect that travel from Britain to Ireland by emigrants and their families will continue indefinitely at its present level. Many countries have climatic and other advantages over Ireland in the tourist sphere, yet are continually spending very large sums on the promotion of tourist traffic. It will be clear, therefore, that sustained effort is needed to attract increased numbers of visitors to Ireland and to raise our net tourist income. This entails a continuing programme for the improvement of amenities at home and better facilities and services for visitors as well as intensive advertising and publicity in overseas markets.

Turf now holds second place among our sources of energy, first place being held by oil. The results achieved by Bord na Móna in the year ended 31st March, 1963, are summarised in the Notes which have been circulated to Deputies. 1962 was a good turf year and production reached nine hundred thousand tons of sod peat and one million nine hundred thousand tons of milled peat. The ESB absorbed nearly 600,000 tons of sod peat and nearly a million tons of milled peat; and they produced 40 per cent of their output from these fuels.

The remainder of the Board's sales found their way either as sod peat or as turf briquettes to industry and domestic consumers. The hard winter helped the sales of briquettes which reached a record of 262,000 tons, including 22,000 tons exported.

To meet the growing demand for briquettes, which is now well in excess of the output of the existing factories, Bord na Móna propose to erect a new briquette factory, with a rated output of 100,000 tons per annum, in the Shannonbridge-Athlone area which will commence production about 1968. Production of milled peat for electricity generation by 1970 will be in the region of two and a quarter million tons per annum and over a million tons will be produced for briquettes manufacture. Production of sod turf will remain at about nine hundred thousand tons per annum. By 1970 the Board's total production will be approximately the equivalent of two and a quarter million tons of coal.

Turf production is sensitive to weather conditions and Bord na Móna have been faced with a difficult problem in organising production and supplies so that the electricity stations which depend on turf will not run short of supplies following a bad turf season. The Board have had recourse to stockpiling and the use of polythene sheets to protect the stockpile from wind and rain. I am glad to say that their efforts in this direction have met with a considerable measure of success and continuity of electricity supplies from turf can now be planned with greater assurance.

Seed and potting compost sold under the trade name "UCEE" is produced at the Board's peat moss works at Kilberry, Kildare and studies of its application are continuing. "Móna Peat Moss" production is continually rising and is expected to reach 350,000 bales this year. This product is much sought after abroad and 80 per cent of production is exported.

Coal ranks third in size as a supplier of energy, consumption in 1962 amounting to about 1,600,000 tons. Coal, as well as turf, has a special place in the domestic hearth. The domestic consumer is now the biggest market for coal. It is possible to combine much of the advantage of the open fire with a greatly enhanced measure of fuel economy by using modern grates and stoves. I urge more promotion for this development. Recently freight rates for coal from Hampton Roads to Western Europe reached 40/- a ton compared with a figure of 19s. 6d. a ton a year ago— and this increase is reflected in the landed price of coal.

Native coal production in 1962 amounted to about 69,000 tons from the Arigna mines most of which was consumed by the ESB power station at Arigna and 130,000 tons of anthracite coal of which 12,000 tons were exported. The Arigna coal is of high ash content and it will not bear the cost of transport. Any expansion of output would have to be consumed at source in the same way as the present output is mainly consumed in the power station. Before this becomes possible it will be necessary to reduce the cost of extracting the coal and devise economical methods of burning the higher-ash coal generally known as "crow" coal. My Department has sponsored an investigation of these matters. This investigation has necessarily been protracted but I hope that it will be concluded fairly soon.

The summarised results of the working of the Electricity Supply Board for the year 1962/63 are also to be found in the notes circulated to Deputies. In the year, production increased by more than 10 per cent to a total of 2,700 million units. Of this, hydro provided 25 per cent, peat, 40 per cent and coal/oil, 35 per cent of which 3.7 per cent was provided by native coal. It will be noted that generation from native sources amounted to approximately 69 per cent of the output. This proportion will decline with the years as demand grows and the limits of expansion of turf production are reached. The rate of growth in demand for electricity is now of the order of 9 per cent per annum. A continuance of this rate of growth will call for doubling of existing generating capacity in less than ten years' time, at a cost of £50 million.

Rural electrification is now progressing to completion at an accelerated pace. On the basis of the present subsidy it is possible for the ESB to connect at reasonable charges about 96 per cent of all the houses in the country. The sale of electrically powered farm and domestic appliances grows steadily. Increases in the number of the more commonly used appliances vary from 20 per cent to 80 per cent since 1959. The more power rural consumers use the less will be the deficit incurred for rural electrification.

My Department administers a scheme of grants for the promotion of fuel efficiency in industry. The scheme was started in 1957 as part of a technical assistance scheme for industry following the disclosure in a report by a firm of consultants that there was considerable scope for economy in the use of fuel by industrial concerns. Under this scheme, grants of up to one-third of the cost were paid to industrial firms who had surveys of their heating and power plants carried out by expert consultants with a view to determining the scope for reduction in their fuel costs. The response from industrialists was, however, very disappointing and in view of the lack of interest shown in the scheme, it was decided in 1962 to have a promotional drive carried out. The drive was carried out by the National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service—an organisation specialising in the field of fuel efficiency. The drive involved a visit by National Industrial Fuel Efficiency Service engineers to a number of industrial firms who were given an appraisal of the scope for reducing fuel costs in their boiler plants.

The overall potential savings by the firms visited in 1962 was £87,000 or approximately 20 per cent of a total bill of £478,000. In the 18 months following the start of the promotional drive, 29 applications for grants were approved compared with 24 applications in the whole of the previous five years. The promotional drive was continued in 1963. The grants for surveys have been increased from one-third to one-half of the cost, and have been extended to surveys of heating plants in hotels.

I do not propose to speak about Córas Iompair Éireann on this occasion since Deputies will have ample opportunity to discuss CIE during the debate on the new transport legislation which will be introduced shortly. I might mention, however, that the notes which I recently circulated to Deputies contain statistics of the Board's operations which, taken in conjunction with the statement already received by Deputies from CIE of their activities during the five year period 1958-1963, give a reasonable amount of information concerning the progress made by the Board since 1958.

As Deputies are aware there has again been some Press publicity recently concerning the possibility of portion of the Grand Canal in Dublin being acquired by Dublin Corporation for the purpose of using it for the laying of a sewerage or drainage system from Inchicore to Ringsend. As I have already indicated in this House, however, there has been no consultation by Dublin Corporation with my Department about the use of the canal for such a purpose. Under existing legislation CIE may not close the canal to navigation until the expiration of three years from the date on which it was last used for public navigation.

There has been an increase each year since 1959 in the number of pleasure boats using the canal. In 1959-60, 54 Irish pleasure boats used the canal and by 1962-63 the number had increased to 77 Irish boats and six foreign boats. There was a further increase in numbers this year and up to 31st October, last, 103 Irish boats and three foreign boats had passed through the canal.

I am glad to be able to inform the House that to facilitate sportsmen and tourists CIE propose to delete from the Grand Canal Bye-Laws the archaic prohibition on the carriage of sporting guns and fishing tackle on vessels using the canal. CIE are also prepared to allow row boats and canoes to use the canal but not the canal locks having regard to the danger of their being swamped when the locks are being filled.

The future of the Grand Canal is still under consideration and I have not yet completed my examination of all the factors involved. In the meantime CIE are required by law to maintain the canal in navigable condition so nothing is lost to the canal enthusiasts by any delay in coming to a final conclusion.

The Transport Act, 1963, has given power to CIE to raise, by stock issue, capital funds not exceeding £3 million to enable the Board to meet the cost of its capital programme for the current financial year and for part of next year. The programme includes such essential items as payment of instalments on the new diesel locomotives, the construction of new railway coaches of an advanced design, the continuation of the railway wagon construction project, the cost of new and more up-to-date buses for the Board's touring services and the provision of additional road freight vehicles.

The Act also authorises CIE to borrow temporarily from the Minister for Finance up to the statutory limit for temporary borrowings, which is £2 million. In fact, CIE have already had to borrow from the Minister for Finance owing to the loss sustained through the bus strike in April and May last. The strike resulted in a loss of revenue of £724,000 and cost the Board about £370,000. I have already warned this House that to the extent that borrowing by CIE to meet the deficit on operating account in the current year cannot be repaid from the Board's revenues the gap will have to be made good by the Exchequer.

I think it is wise to make some observations on the relationship between my Department and the State-sponsored companies for the surveillance of whose general conduct I am responsible. These companies have a combined capital of some £157 million and their annual turnover of business approximates to £63 million. They are concerned with air, surface and deep sea transport, tourism, the Shannon Industrial Estate, electricity and peat.

So far as the Oireachtas is concerned, there are opportunities for debate on Estimates, on the discussion of Bills relating to the Companies, Parliamentary Questions which cover the general questions affecting State Company operation, and the opportunity to seek a debate on the affairs of a company when the annual report is laid on the table of the House.

I believe that the constant interest shown in these companies by the Dáil, the strict accounting required of them and the many occasions for debate which arise provide an incentive both to them and to the Minister in charge. It is the Minister's responsibility to stimulate rewarding Dáil discussion. It is his duty and privilege to give full information to members of the Oireachtas regarding matters of general policy on which questions have been raised during the course of the debates. In this way understanding of the special problems arising in the State-sponsored bodies should be promoted and confidence generated in their ability to overcome these problems.

When the exercise of supervision by the Minister and the Department is examined, it is obvious that there can be no fixed set of rules as to exactly where ministerial control, inquiry and general supervision begin and end once the matters that are not specifically those for ministerial direction are considered. In order to give Deputies some idea of the Department's functions in respect of these companies, I will set out the specific and definite controls and then comment on matters which are of an ad hoc character and largely determined by the Minister in charge and by Departmental tradition.

The principal controls over State companies include—

(a) the appointment, removal and remuneration and Conditions of Service of Board members;

(b) sanction of long and short term financing and capital investment programme;

(c) examination of audited accounts and annual reports and their submission to Dáil Éireann;

(d) sanction of staff superannuation schemes.

Above all, however, the responsible Minister must concern himself with the extent to which the policy and operations of the companies are consonant with Government policy and contribute to economic expansion, or provide a service which keeps pace with the requirements of planned economic expansion. He must be ready to consider new policies, issue new policy directives and, as required, promote new legislation where this seems warranted. These matters involve continuous contacts between the companies and the Department. They involve discussions on the adequacy and efficiency of the services provided as related to the national economy. There are discussions about progress of the companies in relation to the country's needs, the ability to compete effectively where there are competitive services and such matters as utilisation of modern machinery and methods, work study, productivity, research, etc. These contacts range from discussions on specific matters at Departmental level with representatives of the companies to ministerial discussions with chairmen and boards to review progress and policy generally. In addition, I make it my business to have periodical meetings with the chairmen of all the companies together on matters of common concern to State companies.

In relation to the raising of capital, there must be a detailed examination of the productive nature of the investment, the method by which the money should be raised, provisions for remuneration and repayments.

In relation to Government policy, there will be long-range discussions on new techniques, expansion into new fields which private enterprise is unable or unwilling to enter, the calculated risks required to be taken to assist in the drive for economic expansion and so forth.

The question of the strategic moment to expand in certain operations, the risks to be taken in face of some adverse, if temporary, recession in the fields of activity covered are of equal importance.

Of very great importance is the function of bringing pressure to bear to achieve the ultimate objective that transport and power companies should pay their way and discharge their capital interest payments. It is the policy of the Government that all transport and power companies should pay their way and that State capital be remunerated, except in those cases where it is agreed that any surplus should be ploughed back into further expansion.

I now come to the far more difficult problem of supervision, where the Minister is treading the No Man's Land of actual inquiry into matters of day-to-day administration. The most significant type of intervention relates to the way in which complaints by the public are handled. These complaints relate first to the cost of services. With few exceptions, individual complaints of this kind are not matters for ministerial intervention. The Minister's function in this context relates to the overall examination of the annual accounts and the directives given by Acts of the Oireachtas, some of which, such as those relating to the ESB and CIE, definitely provide that the companies should pay their way. When charges rise, the basis for the increase should conform with general policy principles. The Minister must have an understanding with each company as to the interpretation of "paying its way".

Other complaints may relate to inefficiency of one kind or another and may include proposals for changes in or extension of services. First, may I say that the number of these complaints and proposals for innovations is extremely small? Secondly, I must describe how they are handled.

Routine complaints are referred to the company concerned for reply direct to the person concerned, but where a number of such complaints about some particular matter might suggest grounds for the existence of serious public dissatisfaction inquiries would be made with the State bodies concerned.

Complaints of a serious character suggesting departures from Government policy or established practice are discussed with the companies. In these cases I have the matter examined and in the light of the examination I decide whether any further action is necessary.

Finally, the functions of my Department are not merely regulatory. It is one of my important functions as Minister to be a fount of new ideas, and I give every encouragement to the officers of my Department to submit new ideas also. Ideas which, on preliminary examination seem to warrant further consideration, are referred to the State companies concerned for practical evaluation and action where appropriate.

From what I have said Deputies will understand that my Department is extremely active and yet the general independence of action by State companies is preserved, there being very broad definite controls and policy directives of a general character.

Success depends on the character of the boards and the chairmen; on the standards of character and ability of the staffs, in which we are fortunate, and in the ultimate, on the attitude of the individual Minister. The officers of the Department play a vital part in maintaining the right kind of relationship with the companies concerned. This can result in much useful exchange of information and the elaboration of policies at executive level without either interference of an undesirable kind or, on the other hand, disregard of their responsibilities.

As Deputies are aware, questions on the day to day administration of the State companies are ruled out of order on the basis of the statutory provisions. In regard to all questions allowed by the Ceann Comhairle, any impartially minded person will agree that I go as far as possible in supplying information.

As I am sure the majority of Deputies will agree, it is necessary to maintain the commercial independence of the companies and I could not contemplate interference with their discretion in management matters. I am glad to say we have the good fortune that the boards of the companies are dedicated and efficient and their systems of administration are admired by many experts from other countries.

I do not agree with suggestions that the companies should be asked for detailed information on purely regional activities or for sectionalised accounts, the object of which would be to obtain a specific advantage for a particular area or pressure group or possibly for a section of the staff. I regard it as my duty to see that in the overall plan of a company a reasonable balance of interests is maintained. To take just one example—once I am satisfied that CIE have adopted a fair and reasonable basis for costing the operation of branch lines, I should expect the House to accept my general assurance.

In the informatory notes I have endeavoured to give very full information on the operation of the companies. Much of this information is not new. It is contained in published accounts and reports already available to Deputies but I felt that information in a summarised form might help to highlight important aspects and would facilitate Deputies wishing to take part in the debate, who would otherwise have to consult a number of reports.

I note that Deputies rarely refer to the public relations work carried out by the companies themselves—to the patient work of CIE for example, in their market research investigations into the travel needs of people in various areas. It is, indeed, a fact that the State companies serving the general public are in close and continuous contact with public opinion.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

In considering this Estimate, in common with other Estimates which have been the subject of discussion recently, one is faced with the difficulty that the Estimates are now to a considerable extent out of date. Because of the way in which the business of the Dáil ran during the past six or nine months, discussion of these Estimates has been delayed to such an extent that some of the matters which will fall for consideration are, in fact, to an extent matters of merely academic interest because later figures have brought the picture more up to date. The survey which has been given in the notes published prior to the introduction of the Estimate and the Minister's introductory speech indicate the range and extent of the various items covered by the Estimate as well as the work which is being carried out by the State companies or statutory boards responsible for implementing the subheads as included in the Vote.

Initially, I shall deal with tourism and what it is proposed to provide for tourism in the year under review. The fact that it has been decided to spend more money under the auspices of Bord Fáilte will, I hope, act as a stimulus to tourist development and tourist income generally. I have always thought that, compared with the expenditure involved either by the State or the individual, the return from tourism is relatively greater than from probably any other investment. But it is essential to plan in the most efficient manner to attract tourists. One of the estimates in the Programme for Economic Expansion is the doubling of tourist income by 1970. While some of the target figures in the Programme may not be reached and may, in some cases, be invalid, this figure seems to me to be capable of realisation without involving investment comparable with that in other spheres.

We must recognise that competition in our main tourist markets has become keener and, for a variety of reasons, more Irish people take holidays abroad each year. This naturally affects tourist income as it offsets what is spent here by visitors. If this trend is to be countered and the contemplated expansion achieved, more money must be spent by both the State and the industry generally.

The decision to establish regional tourist schemes appears to be a move in the right direction to stimulate local interest and impress on all concerned in the regional areas the importance, from their point of view and that of the individual hotelier and guesthouse owner, of promoting tourism and attracting a greater number of visitors. I think it was in 1949 the ECA authorities sent a mission here under the chairmanship of Mr. Christenberry to investigate generally our tourist potential and to advise on certain changes and report on the prospects of the industry here. That report was subsequently produced and I understand it has since been the basis of many decisions taken by Bord Fáilte and the responsible department.

That report commented on the shortage of bed accommodation here, particularly at the peak season. Since then, considerable expansion has taken place. The survey was carried out shortly after the war when the scarcity of building supplies and other shortages militated against expansion.

A factor which I think has not been given sufficient attention is providing accommodation for middle-income tourists. I have always felt that Bord Fáilte and some of the more exclusive hotels concentrate their publicity on the more luxurious and expensive accommodation. Statistics taken some years ago by Bord Fáilte showed that a substantial majority of our visitors found accommodation in the less expensive hotels — I do not mean those with lower standards—those which, in my view, are more typical of the country than the grandiose hotels which are merely replicas of hotels abroad. While we must naturally measure up to generally accepted standards, the vast majority of those who come here need, and the best prospect of spreading as widely as possible the advantages and benefits of tourism lie in providing more accommodation in the middle and lower cost sections.

For those reasons, Bord Fáilte should concentrate to a greater extent on assisting and encouraging hotels and guesthouses needing assistance. In most cases, their proprietors are the people most in need of assistance to provide the type of accommodation required and to improve standards and amenities. The bigger hotels and the companies operating them have alternative resources to meet the expenditure involved. It is very important, therefore, that Bord Fáilte policy should be aimed at encouraging and assisting — and here I think the limit should be stretched to the utmost—the type of hotelier I have in mind to improve standards and provide additional and better accommodation. I have found on occasion that because a particular area is already regarded as adequately supplied with accommodation, even though some of it may not be up to the required standard, the same assistance is not forthcoming as would be, say, if the person or the proprietor were operating in another locality where the accommodation was not as adequate or was regarded as inadequate during the peak season.

One other matter in connection with this aspect of it seems to me to be the question of whether we get value for the expenditure, either here or abroad, by Bord Fáilte in attempting to attract trade. The view has been expressed to me by more than one person that very many of the visitors who come here would come irrespective of what money were spent and what the publicity.

Publicity, of course, and value are intangible. It is impossible to attribute to a particular item of expenditure or to a particular promotional drive, except in very isolated cases, what actual results may be due to it or what results may be attributed to a particular expenditure in any area or, indeed, in a group of countries.

It did seem to me that one of the matters which was referred to by the Minister and which was regarded as a considerable scoop in so far as the country was concerned and in so far as Bord Fáilte was concerned was the publication in the expensive magazine Holiday. I saw the magazine, in common with other Deputies. It was very attractively produced. But, again, it seemed to me that the accent was all the time directed towards the very wealthy visitor. It probably is necessary to concentrate periodically on that type of visitor, but it struck me that the emphasis in that publication was far too highly geared towards the wealthy, exclusive visitor rather than that the aim and policy and direction should be towards attracting to this country those who are not merely more numerous but who, in the end result, would spend more money. Many of the average type of tourist come here from Britain but indeed, an increasing number also comes from the Continent.

I would agree that the particular publication was extremely well done and that this country was very attractively portrayed. However, it seemed to me that the emphasis was somewhat too strongly on the wealthy tourist and on catering for that type of tourist rather than on the general run of visitors who would naturally be unable to spend anything like the same amount during their visits or stay here.

One of the decisions which was taken recently and which has generally been welcomed is the decision to provide a car ferry service to Dún Laoghaire. The move to do so has been pushed for a long time by a number of interested parties in Dún Laoghaire as well as by the direction of Bord Fáilte, the Department and also the Office of Public Works. It was unfortunate to some extent that the initial location of the proposed car ferry service was announced without adequate local consultation—not because local people or the Corporation felt they had been slighted or overlooked but because of the existing amenities which are valuable. The anxiety of all concerned was that the car ferry service should be provided but, in addition, that so far as possible the existing amenities should be preserved. Some of the amenities in Dún Laoghaire are the promenade and the view of the harbour as well as easy access to the bay for those who sail boats or who want to spend some time looking at others sailing them, and so on.

However, the fact that it has been decided to establish the car ferry service and that work is proceeding on implementing that decision is generally welcomed. I hope that in any further developments concerning the proposed car ferry service close consultation will be maintained at all stages between the Office of Public Works, the Department of Transport and Power and the Dún Laoghaire Corporation as well as all others concerned. Various yachting groups and others who use the amenities there are also interested not merely in having the car ferry service but in preserving the amenities and, if possible, in improving whatever facilities are provided there.

One of the matters referred to in connection with the tourist question generally has been resort development. A considerable amount has been done in some cases. I am glad to note that further development is contemplated in certain resorts which were named. In that connection, I believe that the active co-operation of local bodies such as, in certain cases, local authorities or urban or local councils, as well as chambers of commerce, should be sought. If both the Department and Bord Fáilte approached these bodies, in most cases they would get their co-operation.

Certain resort development schemes that have been carried out in parts of the country have improved the amenities very considerably as well as providing necessary facilities. One of the plans which was announced some years ago and of which I have not recently heard anything was a proposal further to develop the harbour at Dún Laoghaire as distinct from the decision to provide a car ferry service. Dún Laoghaire harbour is under the control of the Office of Public Works. I should be interested to hear if it is proposed to proceed with that development, by what stages it is contemplated it will be carried on, the expenditure estimated at each stage and the estimated numbers who will be employed on it.

One of the changes proposed in connection with the regional development scheme is to utilise the experience and knowledge of the Irish Tourist Association. I should like to express the general appreciation which is felt of the work which the Irish Tourist Association did in the past. It was, as has been said, the first effort by a national organisation to deal with the tourist industry. It was established in the very early days of the State and with comparatively little funds—whatever was raised from a levy in the various local authorities. It certainly did a good deal of work to promote improvement in amenities and in the tourist trade.

For these reasons, it is not only desirable but important that those who have played their part in the Tourist Association should be afforded a full opportunity of making available their experience, their knowledge and their local contacts in any scheme for the development or extension of regional facilities. The members of the ITA are drawn from all over the country and obviously they have a local knowledge and experience that may not be available to Bord Fáilte or the Department. They have contacts with local groups which only those who live in a particular locality can have. For these reasons and also because of the service which they have given to the Association over the years, their experience and knowledge should then be availed of to the full.

I want now to refer to certain aspects of the Vote which deals with CIE. As further opportunities will occur in the fairly near future, it will not be necessary to go into great detail now. One of the matters mentioned in the Minister's statement is the effect of the eighth round on the finances of CIE and the possibility of a subsidy being necessary to meet the increasing deficit. I would be interested to know what the effect of the ninth round, which will now fall to be met, will be on the company's finances. I should also like to know whether it is likely to have any effect on fares for passengers and on freight rates.

One aspect of the administration of CIE which has justifiably been the subject of strong criticism is the inadequate pensions paid to a great many retired CIE personnel. I do not believe that it is right or fair that a matter of this sort should be handed over to the kind of investigation that is being carried on at present. There is no body of pensioners I know of who have pensions as low as those being paid to some CIE pensioners. I know it may be argued that these people were a legacy taken over from the old GSR and that because of the general financial position of the company, as it was absorbed by CIE, the funds were not available. That might have been true if the State had never taken over the company but this is a State company and the existing employees have their wage demands met by whatever machinery is available to them. There is no section of the community which has been as badly affected over the years by the rises in the cost of living as pensioners and retired personnel. Pensioners and persons living on fixed incomes are unable to cushion themselves against rises in the cost of living. They see their standards being depressed continuously. In the case of some CIE pensioners, it would be virtually impossible to depress their standards any further.

The whole question of pensions should be reconsidered by CIE, and reconsidered quickly. We cannot afford in this day and age to adopt the outlook which hitherto was regarded as adequate, as it is no longer adequate. In a number of European countries, decisions have been taken to adjust pensions on some basis comparable with that which applies to salaried workers or wage earners. That system has not been adopted here yet but to some extent, so far as State pensioners are concerned, we have recognised its validity in the sense that the Minister for Finance or the appropriate Minister gives increases or percentage increases in pensions, although sometimes belatedly.

We have in recent years passed a number of pension increase Acts to compensate those who have retired for subsequent rises in the cost of living. Pensions are still based on the wage or salary at retirement. That system was probably fair when the cost of living was stable but nowadays, with the very rapid changes in the cost of living, and the increases in wages and salaries paid to employees, it happens that those who retired later than their former colleagues who held the same positions have substantial advantages. In so far as CIE pensioners are concerned, the pensions are miserably low and completely inadequate.

Looking at the memorandum which was circulated by the Minister in connection with the Estimate, I was struck by the comparatively small contributions paid by CIE to the various welfare schemes. Over and above the question of the inadequacy of the pension rates, there is another matter to which I wish to refer, that is, the delay in dealing with superannuation arrangements for certain retired CIE personnel. The Minister, as Minister responsible for this statutory company, should exert whatever influence he has to have the arbitration delay ended and to have awards made as speedily as possible. Numbers of persons are concerned and one of the serious consequences of the delay in issuing the superannuation award is that married retired personnel who, under the scheme would have the right to allocate portion of their pension to a wife, have died and been, therefore, unable to arrange for portion of the pension to be allocated to the widow. That has caused injustice and hardship. There is no justification for the continued delay in dealing with this matter.

One of the difficulties in considering the accounts of Aer Lingus and Aerlínte is that the full picture is not given in each case, mainly because, in certain cases, a different basis of comparison appears to operate. I should be interested to know from the Minister whether allowance is made in these accounts for interest charged on capital.

Similarly, in the case of Irish Shipping, I have read the accounts and the memorandum circulated by the Minister. I am not clear from this either as to whether interest is charged on the State capital invested or the sums advanced by the State. I should be anxious to know from the Minister whether allowance is made for interest charged on capital and does the net profit include that interest.

The other two matters to which I want to refer briefly is whether the ninth round of wage increases will have an effect on ESB costs and on the Board's finances. To what extent is it estimated this will affect the price of electricity to consumers?

Similarly, what effect will this ninth round have on the finances of Bord na Móna and its products? I am pleased to note that it is proposed to provide an additional briquetting plant. There is no form of fuel which has proved so universally satisfactory as have these briquettes and no form of fuel availed of to such an ever-increasing extent by the public. One of the decisions taken by the inter-Party Government, in which the late Deputy William Norton played a very big part, was the decision to establish the briquetting factories. The wisdom of that decision has been amply justified. The decision received general approbation and a unique expression of confidence in it was demonstrated by the decision of Messrs. Guinness to invest in it at the time a sum of £500,000 in the initial factories. It is good to know it is proposed now to provide an additional plant further to ensure the maintenance of supplies.

As I said at the outset, some of the matters for discussion on this Estimate are largely academic in that the figures are now out of date. I have always held the view that the facilities provided at Shannon Free Airport would have been better provided at Limerick or Ennis. There are no practical difficulties and, indeed, no physical reasons, certainly none that could not be overcome from the point of view of shipping, as compared with Shannon; the facilities which exist in Limerick and Ennis would have afforded not merely better opportunities than those that exist at Shannon but there would also have been available the necessary accommodation and services needed for the persons employed. As well as that, a certain general trade stimulation and activity would have been provided both in Limerick and Ennis.

I note that the total expenditure on Shannon Free Airport up to the present appears to be £4.85 millions. Earnings up to 31st March last come to approximately £65,000. There are some additional expenses and possibly additional revenue. I should be interested to hear from the Minister if he can give an up-to-date picture of the actual income in respect of each year in which the free airport has been operating and if he will indicate the extent to which an expansion has taken place in production and in the numbers employed.

I note a decision has been taken to provide accommodation at rents below the normal economic rent. Is this decision peculiar to the Shannon Free Airport or will the same facilities be provided for employees of State companies in other parts of the country? If a decision is taken to provide accommodation at less than the economic rent, then it should apply all around. There is no reason why special consideration should be given to one locality, or one particular type of development, rather than another.

One of the most important parts of the Minister's speech is that from page 30 to the end where the Minister deals with the relations of the Dáil, I assume, with State-sponsored bodies. He begins by saying:

I think it wise to make some observations on the relationship between my Department and the State-sponsored companiesel.

It is well that he is wise to make some reference to the relationship between himself and the Dáil with these State-sponsored bodies. It is obvious now he recognises that there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction in the minds of Deputies and a great amount of dissatisfaction in the minds of the public generally with regard to the lack of relationship between them and these semi-State bodies. Anything I say on this particular subject is meant to be helpful. As far as the Labour Party are concerned, we applauded the establishment of these semi-State bodies and we are encouraged now by a particular sentence which the Minister uses at page 32:

In relation to Government policy there will be long-range discussions on new techniques, expansion into new fields which private enterprise is unable or unwilling to enter, the calculated risks required to be taken to assist in the drive for economic expansion and so forth.

I applaud the Minister for that statement and for his use of that particular sentence. I trust it is not just a cliché and that he will be guided by the principle embodied in that particular sentence.

To revert to my original remarks, I want to reiterate the dissatisfaction in the minds of Deputies and the general public in regard to the lack of relationship between them and the State-sponsored bodies. The Minister has, in three or four pages of his speech, tried to allay the fears of Deputies and the public on this matter. He has described what his functions are, what the rights of the public are and what the rights of the ordinary members of the Dáil are in regard to the ESB, CIE, Bord na Móna and the other State-sponsored bodies over which he has some control. I am sure he notices that the members of the Opposition and the members of his own Party are frustrated at times by the lack of information forthcoming in reply to questions. I appreciate it is a very difficult problem because they are not State bodies in the sense that the Minister presides over them but he has some responsibility for them. They have a certain amount of autonomy and I presume he believes that if he interferes too much with the autonomy which this House has given them, it will not be to their advantage.

However, it is the members of the Dáil acting on behalf of the public who are responsible for the establishment of these semi-State bodies, who provide the money or the facility whereby they can raise money, who give them permission, so to speak, to raise money. Therefore, the members of the Dáil believe they should have an interest in them and should be able to get more information about these bodies than they have been getting since they were established.

Civil servants in the Minister's Department and in other Departments are subject to questions and criticism by the members of the Dáil but I have a feeling, which is shared by many people, that these semi-State companies are entities, laws unto themselves, and cannot be questioned. That is demonstrated by the attitude of some of the top officials. We would all go along with the Minister in his oft-stated expression that we should not interfere with the day-to-day administration of the semi-State bodies. No one wants to do that. I am sure no member of this House wants to put the Minister in a position in which he has to answer questions as to why such-and-such a person was sacked or as to why the 11.40 a.m. train did not arrive until ten minutes after the scheduled time. He does not want to ask detailed questions about the workings of Bord na Móna or about some outlandish happening in Aer Lingus or Aerlínte. However, he does want to be in the position where he can question the Minister on certain activities of these State-sponsored bodies.

That would not be entirely satisfactory to me because while Question Time may be regarded as a very valuable time here in Dáil Éireann, a better method could be employed in order to allay the fears of Deputies and Senators who are concerned about the public anxiety in regard to these State-sponsored bodies. I believe there should be established in this House an all-Party Committee which would have the right to pose questions to and to make inquiries of these State-sponsored bodies, just as the Committee of Public Accounts, which is representative of the different Parties in the House, have the right to question the top officials of each and every Department on its yearly workings.

We shall be doing a disservice to the idea of the sponsoring by the State of these companies if the gap between them and the public grows wider. I gather from the Minister's statement that he also finds some difficulty and therefore he should appreciate the feelings of Deputies who are frustrated when there appears to be a reluctance on the part of the Minister to give certain information about State-sponsored bodies. At the end of page 30 of his statement, the Minister says:

When the exercise of supervision by the Minister and the Department is examined it is obvious that there can be no fixed set of rules as to exactly where ministerial control, inquiry and general supervision begin and end once the matters that are not specifically those for ministerial direction are considered.

There is an implication in that that the Minister also finds some difficulty. If the Minister has that difficulty, surely our difficulty is much greater when we come to seek information about the activities of these bodies. The Minister goes on to describe the principal controls he has over these State companies and he says they include the appointment, removal, remuneration and conditions of service of board members; sanction of long and short term financing and capital investment programme; examination of audited accounts and annual reports and their submission to Dáil Éireann; and, lastly, sanction of staff superannuation schemes.

They may be important in themselves but there are other important matters which should be, if not the subject of public debate, the subject of debate within an all-Party Committee. The Minister suggests here that he welcomes public discussion on the State-sponsored bodies when the annual report is laid on the Table of the House. That seems to me to be leaving the initiative to Deputies. I do not know whether the Minister means that or wants that because he also says on page 30:

It is the Minister's responsibility to stimulate rewarding Dáil discussion.

I would suggest that as regards these semi-State bodies, this would be an admirable occasion on which to discuss them in a more detailed way than the Minister has done. As a matter of fact, in his statement, he devoted only a third of a page to CIE. He was eloquent—I suppose, rightly so—on tourism and Irish Shipping but there are many searching questions that need to be asked in relation to other State-sponsored bodies and to which the Minister devoted very little time. As I say, CIE is one of the big problems and is dismissed in a third of a page.

The opportunity will arise in the Bill to be introduced.

I meant to mention that as well. I do not know what kind of debate we may have on that, whether it will be confined to the actual matter contained in the Bill or not. The Bill has not been published yet.

The Second Reading of the Bill will involve a general expression of policy on the future of CIE so that the Deputy will have the opportunity he seeks.

I am glad of that assurance but the Minister will appreciate that, while we know there is to be a Transport Bill, we have not had any detailed information about it as yet. In any case, the Minister ought to consider the idea of a Committee of the House, representative of all Parties, that would have the right to question the top executives of these State-sponsored bodies in the same helpful way as the Committee of Public Accounts do in their discussions with the various Civil Service heads of Departments.

On page 32 of his statement, the Minister spoke about the possibility of the expansion of these State-sponsored bodies into new fields which private enterprise is unable or unwilling to enter. I appreciate there may not be very much scope there because while other Ministers are responsible for State-sponsored bodies which could be regarded as being mainly productive, the Minister for Transport and Power is in charge of State-sponsored bodies which are regarded as services and not productive, apart from say, Bord na Móna and the Electricity Supply Board. I wonder can the Minister say if he has anything in mind in that respect? Is it contemplated that there will be an expansion into a new field that private enterprise so far has been either unable or unwilling to tap?

I think we can all congratulate ourselves—let us all take our share in this —on the way tourism appears to have developed over a number of years, and particularly over the past ten years. People are becoming more and more tourist-conscious, largely due to the efforts of many people, including various Ministers of State. The Minister mentioned the introduction of a new idea, the establishment of regional groups. I welcome the introduction of regional groups for the purpose of promoting tourism, but I regret to inform the Minister that whoever was responsible for the establishment or organisation of those regional groups has caused a tremendous amount of dissatisfaction amongst interested parties. I have no doubt in my mind about that.

I did not attend the inaugural meeting in my area, but from all accounts, there is great dissatisfaction with the way it was handled. Very many important groups were ignored. I should like to know who was responsible for that. I do not know whether it was the Minister's idea, or the idea of Bord Fáilte, that these groups should be established, but I think the Minister must take a certain amount of blame if those responsible got some sort of direction which seemed to be implicit when he said:

Each of the new regions will have its own tourist organisation representative of local authorities——

Good——

——local development groups——

Good——

——and the business and commercial life.

Are the trade unions to be ignored? They have a vital interest in the tourist industry. They provide the greatest number of workers and the greatest number of people who are dependent on tourism. Yet, in the establishment of a regional council for Waterford, Wexford, South Tipperary, Kilkenny and Carlow, the trade union movement is absolutely ignored. Has this been done by design, or is the man responsible in that part of the country stupid? I am concerned with the development of tourism, and I am concerned that each and every section should be represented on the various regional bodies. If the people responsible set out to get the goodwill of the business people, the farming community, public representatives and the trade union movement—and I am assuming they did—they antagonised more than half—whether by design or not, I do not know.

In the establishment of these regional councils, certain directors were nominated. Who nominated them? Who was responsible for the nominations that were made on the night when this regional council was being established? The Mayor of Waterford protested, and rightly so, that the trade union movement and the labour movement were being ignored. This may seem to be parochial, but the Mayor of Clonmel, the Mayor of Waterford city and the Mayor of Wexford were ignored. Was there any significance in the fact that three of them are members of the Labour Party? There was no hesitation in nominating a few other individuals who are not attached to the Labour Party. I do not know their political affiliations so far as Fine Gael are concerned, but I do know their association with the Government Party.

Perhaps the Minister would tell me on behalf of Bord Fáilte why the labour and trade union movements were ignored on that occasion. The idea in the establishment of those regional councils is that local representatives from the various areas would contribute one penny in the £ towards tourism, but the public representatives in the Waterford, Wexford, Wicklow and South Tipperary areas will be very reluctant to contribute because of the messy way in which it was handled. It did not show a great deal of dipplomacy. I am all for the idea of the establishment of these regional councils and I still back them to the hilt, but I think it is tragic that whoever was responsible for the organisation was so undiplomatic as to offend so many people. Even members of the Minister's Party were disgusted by the way the business was handled. However, the Minister can take it from me that no efforts of mine, and no action of mine, will go towards destroying the idea of the establishment of those councils, that is, as far as I am personally concerned. I must confess that I cannot speak, as yet, for the members of my Party in that area. In view of what has happened, it will be difficult to ensure that the required amount will be contributed.

The Minister spoke about the development of harbours and mentioned the car passenger service. Again I do not want to press the point unduly. The Minister has been kind enough to give me certain information and make reference to it in reply to Parliamentary Questions. I wonder if at this stage he has anything further to say about the further development and improvement of the car passenger service at Rosslare? Recently an announcement by British Railways gave additional information. If the Minister is in a position to say anything further, I shall be obliged, and if he is not, I shall understand.

Perhaps the Minister would also let the House know—I know there are other people who are interested— what is the position about Wexford harbour? Is it written off? I think that is a fair question. The Minister knows the difficulties that have been experienced by members of the Wexford Harbour Board. I know how bankrupt they are in the matter of money and the matter of ideas as to what is to happen to the port. It seems a pity that the port should be allowed to decay as it undoubtedly has. What the future is I do not know. The Minister might be in a position to say if it is intended to do anything about it. That is as much as I want to say. The Wexford business people, and especially the dockers, are anxious to know whether there is a future for the port or not. So far, we do not know.

The Minister said in his speech that he has had many discussions with chairmen of State-sponsored companies. I wonder would he have a little talk with the ESB people soon and discover what is happening to the voltage in many areas around the country. Have the ESB in some places taken on more than they can cater for? It seems to me, in certain areas, that the ESB contract for and actually carry out work that entails an overloading of their transformers which results in the lowering of voltage to the people in the community generally. I have personal experience—let me assure the Minister—of the voltage in my house being as low as 198 and 190. I do not know much about these things but I am told it should be 220 or 240. I can say the voltage is low because there is a yellow light in many of the rooms where the light is switched on. There is not a full picture in the television set because the voltage is low. It is the same in regard to many of the other electrical appliances.

I think the ESB should now be in a position to provide the normal voltage they are bound by law to give. Perhaps the Minister could enlighten me on that because I could not get enlightenment from anybody as to whether there is a legal obligation on the ESB to provide a certain voltage. I think it is not good enough the way they treat the public sometimes. I think it is legitimate for any of us, when we cannot get satisfaction from these State-sponsored bodies, to communicate the complaint to the Minister in order to ensure that it will be corrected.

There is one last thing I want to mention in regard to Irish Shipping. I have nothing but the highest respect for Irish Shipping and I have always regarded them as an efficient shipping fleet, not only for the business they do throughout the world but for the fine reputation they have. I am concerned about one aspect of Irish Shipping, that is, the safety measures adopted on their ships. I am not doubting their safety measures, but have they got liferafts? Many of us became safety conscious, so far as the sea was concerned, on the occasion of the loss of the Lakonia when it was alleged that many lives were forfeited by reason of the fact that, when the ship listed, efforts to lower the boats on the high side of the ship were useless as they just slipped into the sea. They were broken up and the people in them lost their lives. I am informed that liferafts are one of the best safety measures that could be employed on any of our boats. I would be anxious to know whether or not they are used on Irish Shipping boats as well.

I want to say to the Minister, now that we are discussing this Estmate, that down through the years I have received a collection of letters from the Ceann Comhairle which just said:

Dear Deputy,

I regret I have had to disallow the question addressed by you to the Minister for Transport and Power regarding grants for the development of tourist resorts on the grounds that the Minister has no official responsibility in the matter.

When we address any question to the Minister for Transport and Power on important matters regarding State companies he is supposed to control and for which this House provides the money he hides behind that letter, or, if the question is allowed, he does not answer it. I hope that, when I ask the Minister some questions today, he will give me the courtesy of a reply. He said in his statement that it is the Minister's responsibility to stimulate debate in the House. The Minister has stifled discussion here in this House over the years.

There was a debate on one subject for an entire week.

When I raised the subject of the closing of the Tramore railway by the Minister and by CIE, the Minister told us Tramore was losing £3,000, £6,000 or £9,000 a year —he was not sure how much—but, after a year, when I asked him how much profit he was making on the bus service, he would not tell me. Now I can tell him he was losing plenty of money on it, and is still losing it. That is because he would not listen to the local people.

The Act of 1958 was passed because the Taoiseach gave his word that, before any railway line would be taken up or any railway line destroyed by CIE, there would be a full consultation with the local people and the local authorities. That was not carried out —and I repeat—that was not carried out. That was another false Lemass promise and it was not implemented by the Minister for Transport and Power or his officials. Thirty or forty years ago some people I am looking at here, and others, were prepared to take rifles in their hands to ensure there would be an Irish Parliament to ensure that the dictates of the Irish people were carried out. I never thought that we would see the day when the elected representatives of the Irish people would not be allowed to ask questions of certain people in this House even though these people were supposed to be the servants of this State and were supposed to be the employees of State companies. I am not speaking about any of those people personally but about the principle that a parliamentary representative has the right to come here and demand an explanation from the Minister for Transport and Power regarding important facets of the activities of some of the State companies.

Time and again I have been choked off here when I came along with questions about State companies. Time and again I have seen my colleagues on both sides just rubbed off by the Minister. That must cease. The person who is now Minister, or whoever will be Minister in the future, should be in a position to come here when Deputies ask questions and be able to answer these questions. The position with the present Minister is that he refuses to answer. When I read this question some time ago, he said I had put down questions in reference to one activity, the destruction of the Waterford-Tramore railway. Actually, it had to do with tourist resorts.

I am perfectly entitled, as is every other Deputy in the House, to ask the Minister how much money is being allocated to each tourist resort by Bord Fáilte. That is not a question of a small detail: it is a question of administration and policy. There is something which I think is alarming about certain matters for which the Minister is responsible. From experience I have had of the Minister, I can say he refuses to interfere with State companies he is supposed to control. He refuses to give the House information about them.

This is very dangerous because these companies have what I regard as the stupendous power of placing advertisements in newspapers which could give an enormous advantage to the executives of these companies since it could place them in a position to exert pressure on the newspaper or newspapers that would prevent these newspapers from offering fair criticism or comment regarding the administration and running of such companies. If such a state of affairs arose, and if a Deputy heard about it and raised it here in the Sovereign Parliament of the Irish people, I have no doubt the Minister would stand up and say it was a matter of ordinary administration and detail.

That is not true, of course.

That is true.

In fairness, I know the Deputy has special views on the matter, but if the Deputy or any Deputy were to allege threats by any State company to a newspaper because of the placing of advertising in the newspaper, it would be a matter for me to make immediate inquiries from the chairman of the company concerned to get the question elucidated. That was not what the Deputy was talking about. It is an entirely different question—one of ordinary day to day administration, matters of petty detail. An allegation of corrupt behaviour by a State company is not a matter of petty detail.

The Minister says that here now. I hope—I am nearly sure—such a situation would not arise, but if it did arise in five or six months, I have little doubt the Minister would rise in his place and tell us that we could raise the matter on the Estimate. I can only go on the Minister's form. It is no use the Minister telling me what he might do. I am going on his form during the past two or three years since he became Minister. We heard cheers recently when a Labour Deputy asked a question about Aer Lingus and the Minister answered it. There were cheers because here was the Minister at last answering a question.

Now, while we are on the subject of advertising, here is what I would call a very important supplement to a British Sunday newspaper. In it is an advertisement inserted, apparently by Aer Lingus. It advertises an Irish hotel—I shall not name it—run by one of the Minister's State companies. Evidently I could never get in my views on this if it were not for this debate on the Estimate: I would have been held off all year. However, this hotel is advertised widely.

Would the Deputy please give the name of the periodical or magazine?

It is the colour magazine of the Sunday Times for 16th February, 1964.

What is the name of the hotel?

I shall leave that. This is a very important hotel. It was an important hotel even when it was run by the Great Southern and Western Railways. It is also a very important hotel from the point of view of hoteliers throughout the country because some of them have told me that it has the highest rate of complaints with Bord Fáilte from people who have stayed in it. I should like the Minister to look into that and would ask him to see that when people who are supposed to be employed in the hotel are photographed in front of the hotel——

Surely the Minister is not responsible for all the details in connection with one hotel?

This is the view of Ireland abroad and it should be a true view.

The Chair is concerned only with ministerial responsibility for matters raised by Deputies.

I put it to you this is the place where I should raise this. I put it to you that the Minister is the man who can get in touch with the company concerned. I put it to you that is what I have been sent here for. That is what every Deputy is sent here for. That is what we have a Government for and a Minister for.

As far as the regional tourist councils are concerned I can only say the concept is splendid, the idea fine. I must say that some time ago, and I refer to the Official Report, I recommended there should be such a council for Wexford, Waterford and Kilkenny —that they should be joined up for the purpose of tourist promotion. Two years ago, speaking on this Estimate, I made such a recommendation and now we find the Minister or Bord Fáilte endeavouring to form these tourist councils. This is a great idea which I shall do everything possible to further. Organisations to which I belong will, I can assure the Minister, be only too happy to help the people running these councils.

I have one complaint, however. We heard the leader of the Labour Party speak on the subject this evening. My information is that many representative people from the city and county of Waterford were invited to the Chamber of Commerce in Waterford for a preliminary meeting. It was made known to them that as representatives of organisations or as private individuals, they would be expected to subscribe. A great many people subscribed: a further meeting was called and that meeting elected a council representing the city and county of Waterford. It was understood the same thing would happen in Tipperary, Kilkenny, Carlow and Wexford. These people understood that at a future date they would be called together to elect so many directors.

What actually happened was that directors were selected by the Minister, Bord Fáilte and some unknown organisation. Nobody seems to know who did it—they were faceless men. Then the fat was in the fire. There were three very obviously selected strong supporters of the Minister's Party; and, with the exception of one, I would say the others would not know an awful lot about tourism and travel. On these various boards were people who had great experience of travel and business, but they were all passed over. The trade union representatives were passed over. They were sorry because they consider that the greatest income from tourism comes to us from the working class in Great Britain. Therefore, they considered they should have had a representative. If the county council or the city council give £500, they have the right to elect one of their members. That was all right. But it is extraordinary that the directors for counties Kilkenny and Waterford were already chairmen of their respective county councils. They were selected by the Minister before the election. That means that the county councils can elect another man.

I did not intervene at all in these appointments.

I am very glad to hear it. I take the Minister's word for it. This is the time for the Minister to intervene now and look over the list of names he has. He can pick out the people in the various areas who have great experience of travel and promotion. I am as keen as the Minister that these regional councils of tourism should be a great success.

There is a matter of detail I should like to raise, which I was not allowed to refer to on another occasion. I have a complaint from a constituent of mine.

He used to attend a pig market at Abbeyleix. He told me he could send 40 pigs from Abbeyleix to Waterford by rail for £7 5s. a wagon. A wagon holds about 40 pigs. But then this wind of change in CIE came, and they have taken up the lines in Abbeyleix. Of course, CIE and the Minister will always promise you an alternative service. This man has his alternative service now, but it costs £13 to send 40 pigs from Abbeyleix to Waterford. I would ask the Minister to look into that.

I want to deal with the way livestock transport is slipping from the railway to the road. I know it is very convenient for a man to go to a fair, buy his cattle and have them travel from the fair by lorry to the field he wants to put them in at home, but there are many people who do not send cattle to a field or a farm away from the railway. Perhaps they would be shipping them out through the North Wall. The Minister could channel back an enormous number of cattle to the railway from fairs and marts. When a mart is held, it is known there will be a lot of cattle there. Instead of bringing up so many lorries and taking these cattle away, the local railway should be given its chance. The wagons should be sent there and a "special" made up. That was how the railway company made money at one time before new ideas came into it. When there are a large number of livestock offered for sale in a certain area on a certain day, the railway canvassers should make it their business to find out in advance who the buyers will be. That was done for years. It would be a good thing if many of these "Matadors" were taken off the road and the traffic channelled back to the railway.

In the matter of Irish Shipping, I was interested to read the tonnage figures on Page 9 of the notes on the main activities of State companies for which the Minister is responsible. We have 17 cargo ships and three tankers. We have four ships of 15,000 tons and five of up to 10,000 tons. I want the Minister to take note of this. I am informed that only the port of Dublin can berth any of these ships when fully laden. The "Irish Poplar" and the "Irish Spruce" are each of 9,000 tons, the "Irish Pine", 7,000 tons and the "Irish Oak", 7,000 tons. These can go into the ports of Cork, Waterford and Limerick. We have some smaller motor vessels of from 1,300 to 1,900 tons. I would suggest that the Minister should consider having more of the smaller ships built and not allow the smaller ports to die. There was a picture in one of the newspapers recently of a ship bringing in a cargo of artificial fertiliser to one of the Kerry ports. As a result the farmers of the area will be saved £1 a ton in the cost of the artificial manure. That could be done in respect of all the small ports around the coast.

We seem to have become lorry-mad. Cargoes are brought into the port of Dublin, discharged there and sent by lorry all over the country. I have seen 7,000 or 8,000 tons of artificial manure being brought into Waterford from as far away as Galway. That is not good policy.

I realise the freight rate is lower on a large cargo but as against that, there is the heavy cost of transport by lorry to country districts. It would be a good thing if we could have our own small ships so that we would not have to depend on Dutch ships. There should be a concentration on the building of small ships. I know I will be told about the freight rates all over the world and that small ships are not the best paying proposition, and so on, but the extraordinary thing is that all our ports are cluttered up with small ships of Dutch, Danish and German lines. If they are able to make them pay, I do not see why we should not be able to make them pay. The leader of the Labour Party mentioned the fact that the port of Wexford is practically closed. The reason for that is that we have not sufficient small ships. Irish Shipping should consider building small ships that could go into Irish ports.

Now I want to mention the position of CIE pensioners. I am not referring to pensioners who come within the terms of reference of the commission that is now sitting. I do not want the Minister to tell me about that commission. Its terms of reference cover CIE pensioners who have retired in recent years, many of whom are doing all right. I have nothing to say about them. I want to refer to men who came out in 1947, 1948 and 1949. There are only a few of them. They have miserable pensions of, in some cases, 12/- a week and in other cases, even 6/- a week. Some of them have written to me. The Minister should consider this matter. We have a duty to these men because when they were working on the railways, they qualified themselves for a low pension because they worked for low wages and long hours. They made the railways pay and the trains ran and they are now cast on the scrapheap. The commission at present sitting has nothing to do with them. This is a matter that is in the Minister's hands. The CIE pension fund, according to the information I have, is buoyant and justice should be given to this handful of men.

I would ask the Minister to turn over a new leaf. When questions are asked in regard to Bord na Móna, CIE or Aer Lingus or any State company, he should answer them in this House. It is his duty to do that. I would ask him especially to look after the pensioners to whom I have referred.

I wish to refer now to a very important item of policy on the part of the Minister. I would ask him to go to the offices of Bord Fáilte and have a conversation with Bord Fáilte regarding the setting up of regional councils so that these regional councils will be set up to the satisfaction of the local people, and will have the goodwill of the local people. If that is done, the regional councils will be a success, but if it is not done, there may be some county councils who will refuse to vote the necessary money and who will take no part in such councils and that would be a tragedy. Therefore I would appeal to the Minister to have this matter considered immediately.

There are a few matters I wish to raise on this Estimate. The first is the matter that has been referred to by Deputy Lynch, the proposed regional councils of Bord Fáilte. It was proposed by Bord Fáilte that Cork and Kerry form one region. That matter was fully discussed by the Cork County Council. A decision was come to that Cork county and city were large enough to have a regional council of their own. That decision was duly conveyed to Bord Fáilte as the decision of the Cork County Council. Despite that or ignoring that, Bord Fáilte called a meeting of their regional council, as they called it, in Macroom, a meeting of the joint body of Cork and Kerry, on a Sunday evening. I can assure the Minister that if that is to be the attitude adopted by Bord Fáilte, we in Cork will have nothing to do with them and neither will we give them any money. It is just as well to be straight and plain in these matters. I do not believe in the impertinence of any paid official—I do not care who he is—overriding the wishes of any body of elected representatives. We will not have it.

I would seriously suggest to the Minister that where there are large sums of Irish money invested in what might be called private boards, an Irish director should be appointed to look after the money of the ratepayers.

Another matter I want to deal with is in regard to Irish Shipping. We have a very considerable amount of money invested in Irish Shipping. I cannot understand why ships, which are the property, one might say, of the Irish people, have to be sent abroad for repair and overhaul, while Irish dockyards are prepared to do the work. I put down a question in connection with the "Irish Oak" but, unfortunately, I was unable to be here for it as I was busy in Cork. I want to point out to the Minister that the usual practice in continental countries in respect of their vessels is to have only the minimum essential repairs done abroad and have their ships brought home for repairs.

We have practically sufficient shipping now, thank God, to keep our dockyards going with repair work and that is one of the matters I want the Minister to look into. On the one hand, we give money to help the dockyards. That is taxpayers' money. On the other hand, we give money to keep our shipping going and it is the most ridiculous thing I know to have one of our firms taking Irish money to Britain and the continent to get its ships overhauled, while at the same time there is danger that young Irishmen who have been trained in dockyard work will be paid off and have to follow the ships away to do the job. I want that situation to end, with no more nonsense.

I do not wish to go into the Estimate now when we shall probably be discussing it again in a few months' time put those are two urgent matters I want dealt with. I do not wish to be putting down questions here and raising them on the Adjournment. It is bad enough to have a shipping line in Cork drawing the whole of its income from Cork port while every penny spent on overhaul and repair is spent in Britain, but here are our own ships sent abroad for repairs. It has occurred on at least two occasions. I hope it will not happen again.

The Minister, in his opening statement, was remarkably diffident in regard to CIE. He told us he did not propose to say anything about it because transport legislation will be introduced in the near future. Is the Minister being so coy in his references to CIE because he is dodging the issue of what is going to happen in respect of bus and train fares in the near future?

A week ago, we had a disclaimer from the Tánaiste in regard to the rise in the price of bread. He said, or implied, last week that bread would not go up in price. He told Deputy Sweetman that rumour was a lying jade. Yesterday we saw what happened. Bearing that in mind, is the Minister for Transport and Power endeavouring to dodge the issue in the same way? What is going to happen to Dublin bus fares which are already outlandishly high? Are they to be increased to pay the 12 per cent wage increase resulting from the implementation of the turnover tax? If so, I, for one, protest because Dublin bus fares are already scaled to ensure CIE an exorbitant rate of profit from their operation of Dublin road passenger services.

The best proof of that statement lies in the remarkable reluctance of CIE and the Minister to tell us what profits CIE make in Dublin city. We know from their annual accounts that the road passenger services on a national basis are yielding a profit of over £500,000. Certain provincial services where buses are running to ten per cent capacity, with only two or three passengers, must be losing money and, taking account of that, it seems to be unquestionable that the CIE profit in Dublin at present is of the order of £1 million, or at least nearer to that than to £500,000.

If the Minister wants to deny that, I hope he will tell us what they are making in Dublin city because he has refused to do so in reply to questions and the Chairman of CIE has refused to do so in reply to my written request for that information. Why? Is it a sound principle on which to operate a national transport concern to withhold that kind of fundamental information from elected representatives of the people? Is it a sound administrative principle for the Minister to say here that he will not tell us what profits are being made on Dublin city services? I hope I can urge him to depart from that policy and goad him tonight into telling us what is being made in Dublin and in Cork because that is fundamental information we are entitled to have.

CIE policy seems to be to charge what the market will bear, to fleece Dublin workers in the outlying dormitory suburbs and people who are compelled to avail of public transport to reach their place of employment. It is a very unsound economic principle on which to operate any national undertaking — to charge what the market will bear and make one section of those concerned pay for the staggering losses incurred in other operations. At least one of our most respected economists, an expert in transport economics, holds that by reason of the CIE policy of charging excessively high fares on bus services, particularly provincial bus services, they are killing the goose that lays the golden egg. CIE are charging excessive fares in Dublin city, by any yardstick you care to measure with. The yardstick the Minister is so fond of employing, of comparing them with English city transport statistics, is not a valid comparison. If we have regard to the fact that CIE are also providing grossly inadequate and unsatisfactory services in Dublin city, it discloses a very serious state of affairs indeed. If, by reason of the turnover tax, bus fares are once again to be increased in Dublin city, it will result in a grossly inequitable and unjust state of affairs.

The Minister is so fond, as I said a few moments ago, of quoting statistics to convince us that by reference to bus services operated in British cities CIE are not charging more per passenger mile than are concerns in Britain that it is worth observing that the profits of British city transport concerns in most cases are used for the relief of the local rates by reason of the fact that their services are municipally owned. It is also worth bearing in mind that, in Britain and other countries, nationally-owned or municipally-owned transport concerns provide concessionary rates for invalids and old people. They provide workers' fares. CIE have at all times refused to consider any such proposals when made to them by the Dublin Corporation. They are bringing about a situation in which the Dublin Corporation have to consider very carefully, indeed, the economic consequences of bringing our people, who so badly need housing, out to outlying areas.

Bus fares are a most significant and substantial item in the Dublin worker's budget. Many of our children in outlying areas are not provided with schools locally and have to travel considerable distances to secondary and technical schools and even to national schools.

In that context, it is true that children travelling to school are entitled to a reduced fare. I think at present it is a 1d fare. They will get it only twice a day. If they come home to lunch, as most children do at lunch time, they will not get the concessionary fare. To rectify that injustice would not cost CIE very much. Yet it is a question which they have at all times absolutely refused to consider.

Take the matter of bus shelters in Dublin city. Surely, out of the vast profits CIE are making they could provide the unfortunate people with shelters to protect them from the elements?

That is scarcely within the Minister's province.

It is so difficult to know what is the Minister's responsibility in this matter.

I am sure the Deputy will succeed if he tries.

Who will build the shelters if CIE do not?

I do not consider that that arises.

That leads me to the general question of the Minister's responsibility for CIE and the other State companies which at present appear to be completely immune from Parliamentary control. Is that a sound principle? Have we at any stage considered the first principles on which we want these State companies operated? In respect of the Central Fund and the Supply Services, we have a very rigid system of rendering them accountable to Parliament. We seem to have let these State companies grow upon us unawares and to have allowed ourselves to be in the position of having a monstrous bureaucracy completely outside of Parliamentary control. The chairman of CIE does not disclose certain details in his glossy, but uninformative, accounts. He can refuse to provide an elected representative of the people with fundamental information in relation to our transport services. That is a completely undesirable state of affairs. I appeal to the Minister to try to end it.

I want to refer to the cross-Channel passenger services. Improvements have recently been made at Dún Laoghaire but only after the pressure of public opinion was brought to bear very considerably to compel British Railways and the Office of Public Works to effect improvements there. I wish the Minister at some stage would, incognito, travel third class from Dún Laoghaire to Holyhead and see the conditions of unparalleled squalor in which our people are expected by British Railways to travel—conditions which apply to no other profit-making steamship service, conditions which contrast very strikingly, indeed, with the services operated by British Railways between Britain and France where the holiday-makers travelling third-class can do so in quite considerable comfort.

If you go on the mailboat, as I have done, third-class—second-class they call it now—you will find the people, particularly at rushed periods, herded like cattle and treated with scant courtesy by everyone with whom they have dealings: there is no question of that. The manner in which they are treated cannot be excused in any justifiable circumstances whatsoever. I have travelled on that service and I have seen mothers with young children refused a drink of milk in the thirdclass dining-room because all the milk was reserved for the first-class passengers. I know the Minister is concerned about the position but it seems to me he can lean over too far in his endeavours to be reasonable with the people who are operating these services. I think it is time he wielded the big stick.

There is one matter to which I should like to refer on this Estimate. Deputy Cosgrave has dealt exhaustively with this Estimate from our side of the House but as one representing a constituency in which there are now no railway lines left at all, it is reasonable for me to direct the attention of the House to the astonishing difference that exists between Fianna Fáil promises and Fianna Fáil performances. When the 1958 Transport Act was before this House one of the arguments adduced for it was that if Córas Iompair Éireann got a general licence to tear up all the branch lines in the country, the Minister for Transport and Power clearly foresaw that at the end of three or four years the resultant economies would make Córas Iompair Éireann solvent. Anyone who dared to express doubt as to the expediency of that policy was denounced as being destructive. In pursuit of that policy, all the railway lines in County Monaghan were torn up. Incidentally in Dublin recently, we were invited to a luncheon, which the Minister attended, to celebrate the arrival at Busarus of an express bus from Monaghan. Why Córas Iompair Éireann should go to town to celebrate the arrival of an express bus from Monaghan I cannot imagine, seeing that their function is to supply efficient and sufficient transport in view of the fact that they have torn up the railway lines.

The Fianna Fáil undertaking was that if the Oireachtas would authorise Córas Iompair Éireann to tear up the railway lines and retire the railway employees and provide them with redundancy compensation, Córas Iompair Éireann would be solvent in 1962 or 1963. What is the position? We have now torn up all the branch lines, with very few exceptions. In 1957, Córas Iompair Éireann lost £2,261,000; in 1958, it lost £1,799,000; in 1959, it lost £709,000; in 1960, it lost £246,000; in 1961, it lost £2,860,000; and in 1962, it lost £2,930,000, so that we are now losing more than we ever lost before. Railway freight charges, railway passenger charges and bus fares are higher than they have ever been before and the small towns from which the railway service has been withdrawn have suffered the loss consequential on the withdrawal of these railway transport facilities.

It is quite an illusion for anybody to imagine that a country town suffers no loss as a result of the disappearance of its railway. Anybody with any experience of rural trading knows how important the Christmas trade is to a country town. People coming home on holidays come home by train and they come by train because they know the connections and depend on the railway to get them there. If there is a railway station in the town, people come by rail to that station, there to be met by their friends. For a fortnight before Christmas, that homecoming and that meeting at the railway station contributes a very substantial volume of trade to a country town. Suspend the train service and substitute a bus service or an alternative railway station ten or 15 miles away and the coming and the receiving is done at that distant railhead, with grave detriment to the country town which has had its railway closed.

I could understand the economic argument if it were held that some local sacrifice was necessary in order to redeem the Fianna Fáil prospects and invitations they held out of restoring solvency to Córas Iompair Éireann but it is little better than a cheap confidence trick to promise that these local sacrifices would result in a national benefit which in fact was illusory and has never materialised. Far from it, and we are now losing far more money on CIE today than we were losing before the branch lines were closed down. I have risen merely to direct the attention of the House to another fraudulent undertaking of Fianna Fáil.

As Deputy Byrne has said, it is analogous to the fraudulent undertaking given by the Minister for Health a few days ago that there would be no increase in the price of bread. It is like the fraudulent undertaking given by Fianna Fáil that the ultimate consequences of the 2½ per cent turnover tax would be a 2½ per cent increase in the cost of living. By the time they have finished with it, the cost of living will be a heavy burden on our people and no insubstantial part of that increase will fall upon them through the charges levied on the transport of this country by Córas Iompair Éireann.

Deputy Byrne has spoken of the burden growing bus fares constitute for our people but the House would be foolish to ignore the steady increase in that burden of costs which reaches our people through the transport charges made by CIE. We believe the time is overdue for reconsidering the whole question of whether the transport of goods, particularly in rural Ireland, should not be opened to some measure of competition from private enterprise. At present certain branches of transport are so open, notably the transport of milk to creameries and certain other specified commodities. If the present trend of costs continues, we must, I think, look further with a view to seeing if our rural transport cannot be made more economic for those who have to use it and pay the cost of it.

My principal concern is to direct the attention of the House to the startling differences between the undertakings given to us when the 1958 Transport Bill was under discussion here and the situation with which we find ourselves confronted at the present time. I do not propose to go further into the details of the Minister's statement and certain other matters mentioned in the notes on the activities of the State companies for which he is responsible, except to refer to his comment on the number of fishing visitors and expenditure by them between 1957 and 1962. I think we are entitled to look back with satisfaction on the fact that when we, in the inter-Party Government, established the Inland Fisheries Trust, our aim was to expand a branch of the tourist industry here which would benefit those areas which did not normally derive much income from tourism.

It is gratifying to note that the year the Trust was founded it is estimated that 12,000 fishing visitors came to Ireland and laid out a sum of approximately £285,000 in the rural areas. To-day, it is estimated that 58,000 fishing visitors come annually and lay out annually a sum of approximately £1,346,000. Our prophecy of the probable benefits which would accrue from the establishment of the Inland Fisheries Trust was very much more modest than the event has proved it to be. I compare that prophecy and that performance with the Fianna Fáil promise that Córas Iompair Éireann would be solvent today when, in fact, it lost £2,930,000 in the year 1962-63, and I await with interest the Minister's answer to the question addressed to him by Deputy Cosgrave as to what the prospects are, and what the accounts of Córas Iompair Éireann will show, when they have made provision in them for the ninth round of wage increases, which, I assume, is at present in contemplation.

I notice the Minister referred in his opening statement to improvements at Dublin Airport. He instanced the erection of two pier buildings, the construction of two additional taxiways and an extension of the apron. He indicated that later on sketch plans in connection with these latter projects will be placed before us. I wonder how much thought do the architects who design these improvements give to providing suitable accommodation for the staff at the airport. It is somewhat ironical to find us setting about making these improvements, while, at the same time, ignoring the needs of the workers from the point of view of accommodation. But that is what is happening at the moment.

No provision has been made in these new buildings for staff quarters and members of the staff are compelled to walk a considerable distance in inclement weather with grave risk of serious injury to health, and all because of lack of consideration on the part of those who drew up the plans. I abhor this business of forgetting the backbone of these ventures, namely the workers. The workers should not be taken for granted. The Minister has indicated that he has had consultations quite frequently with these people; he should endeavour to ensure a proper understanding with regard to the provision of ample accommodation for the workers. I do not want to be regarded as condemning the operation of the airport. I am fully conscious of the fact that a very excellent and very useful job is being done there.

The ESB comes within the scope of the Minister's authority. I appeal to him to have a word with the ESB about meter rent charges. Many people have paid these charges for years and years, old age pensioners included. They can ill afford meter rent charges. Surely it should be possible to make them the owners of these meters at some stage. No consideration is given to them. Rumour has it—I do not know how true it is—that these meter rent charges are to be further increased. I should like some information on that.

Deputy Byrne spoke about the B & I line. I agree with everything he said. Suitable accommodation should be provided for people coming into and going out of the country. There is no denying the fact that the B & I line is a paying proposition. They operate on the cheap and it is about time they were made to understand that suitable facilities must be provided for intending travellers. One is inclined to think that there is an element of sabotage from the point of view of the tourist industry. I hope that is not so.

The Minister referred to his intention to do something more for guesthouses and small hotels. What is the Minister's view with regard to the building of A star and star hotels generally? I believe saturation point has been reached and there have been serious repercussions. This year, indeed, the season was very bad simply because they could not share the amount of business; there were too many for the business that offered. Again, something will have to be done about the prices these hotels are charging. For the type of fare provided, the prices are far too high.

Another problem is the brevity of the tourist season. We get a great many tourists at a certain time and then for the remainder of the year we get no tourists at all. I know Bord Fáilte is trying to get over that difficulty by spreading the season. I sincerely hope it will be successful in that regard. The Minister seems to have forgotten entirely his latest baby; he has ignored it completely, made no reference to it. I refer to the recruitment, education, and training of staff. That is the backbone of the hotel industry. We must have a properly trained staff. In view of the Government's intention to increase considerably the income from tourism by 1970, we shall have to concentrate more and more on educating and training staffs and treating staffs properly. We shall have to concentrate on improving the position in our hotels.

The Minister should indicate what he intends to do by way of improving allocations. When Bord Fáilte was created, it was not then said it was intended to double the income from tourism by 1970. That body has been presented with that problem and, therefore, some more money should be allocated to it.

I wish to advert to the formation of these new regional councils. I believe it is a good idea whereby a group of people will get together and concentrate on local amenities having regard to what they can do and also what they cannot do. That type of thing can only be achieved if it is approached on a co-operative basis and if we realise from the start that everybody has a say in it.

I agree entirely with Deputy Corish when he protested against the absence of trade union participation in these councils or organisations. In many cases they were not invited. I know for a fact that in Dublin where there are approximately 100,000 trade unionists, some directly and some indirectly interested in tourism, they were asked to send only one representative to act on the regional council here. Cork city has none and there is an outcry, I understand, down there about this whole matter. It is a pity they did not do something about it before now and I hope sincerely the Minister will have a word with the people who make up their minds who to invite and who not to invite. These councils appear to be loaded and loaded in one way and, that being the case, there will not be the co-operation we all desire and we all know to be necessary to promote the best interest of Irish tourism.

I wish also to advert to CIE so far as catering is concerned. CIE have a good catering service. I am wondering when CIE will provide hotels to cater for the middle-class visitors instead of aiming at the sky. Every one of the CIE hotels is in the category where the highest charges prevail. The middle-class English, Welsh and Scottish people cannot afford to avail of CIE hotels and I would appeal to the Minister to do something in this direction.

I would also appeal to the Minister to give serious thought to the problem of increased bus fares in Dublin. It is true to say that if the bus fares go up in Dublin it will nullify the effect of the 12 per cent increase in wages. Is it not time that serious consideration was given to the fact that the Dublin city bus services are a paying proposition but that, unfortunately, by reason of the set-up, they have to support other CIE operations throughout the country? The people are getting very tired of that. Regard must be had to the effect of increased bus fares not only on those who receive the 12 per cent but also on those thousands of people who will get no 12 per cent and who have nobody from whom to get a 12 per cent increase in their income. Furthermore, in order to avoid the danger of starting off the tenth round in a short space of time, I urge him to do something about bus fares in Dublin.

Other Deputies spoke about the closing of railways. The closing of railways in my constituency has resulted in a very sad picture indeed. There was no alternative employment provided for these people. The homes in which they lived are closed and the towns where these railway stations were are much the poorer for the closing of these lines.

There is the further effect that the roads are suffering heavy damage as a result of the traffic that has been transferred from the railways to the road. Each county where these lines were closed is getting a grant to make up for the damage being done by the heavy traffic but I can assure the Minister that it is not at all in keeping with the cost of maintaining and building those roads that are being broken up by 8-ton and 10-ton trucks. I would appeal to the Minister to increase the grants to these counties to repair the damage done by traffic these roads were never intended to take.

When those lines were being closed and when big changes were being made by the Minister for Transport and Power we who live in rural areas were assured that the bus fares would be kept low, that there was no danger of any great increase taking place. Now the ordinary small farmers are reluctant to go to town when they discover they have to pay 7/6d where heretofore they could travel on the railway line at a cost of about 2/6d or 3/-. Many increases have occurred but not to the same extent as the increase those people are suffering in that direction.

Again, there were people throughout the country who invested in a truck, who were giving good service over a wide area, working hard and making a living for themselves. They provided transport for their fellow farmers and other people throughout the area. They were told to clear off the roads, that if they did not obey they would find themselves in court, and some of them in my constituency found themselves in Mountjoy Jail. That is the change that has come about by the closing of the railway lines in Sligo-Leitrim and the country is being bled white of its population. There is no alternative employment offered to people. The cost of travelling is too high and there is nothing left for many people but to pack up and go away. I would again ask the Minister to put a stop to the increased charges that are being imposed on the people who have to travel by bus.

I sent some correspondence to the Minister's Department about bus conductors and bus drivers in Leitrim and Sligo. A bus conductor, a young married man, giving very good service, with a fine record, was unexpectedly told he was being sent to Ballina as a conductor there.

That is administration. The Minister is not responsible.

If he writes to CIE, he will not get an answer. His only chance is to bring it up here.

I thought it was the Minister's task to——

I have given the Deputy considerable latitude. He knows day-to-day administration is not in the province of the Minister.

In my area, vocational committees have to subsidise the transport of children in order to make it possible for them to get their education. Like the maintenance and building of county roads for heavy transport, this has the effect of increasing the rates. Many people do not understand that. They think councillors can keep down the rates, but that is one of the reasons the rates are going up.

We all agree that tourism is a great advantage to the country, but I often wonder is it a greater advantage than the people we are sending out of the country. Much money is spent on very elaborate hotels and if some of that money were spent to provide employment for the people we export every year, that would be a better approach. We hear a lot about those great hotels and read a lot about them in the newspapers, but it does not make sense to the ratepayers to invite people who have plenty of money to come here and enjoy the comforts of these hotels, while we are sending out people who are not provided with employment. That is a sad picture. We are sending out people without a penny in their pockets, and inviting in people who are living in luxury elsewhere.

I should like to deal with a number of remarks which were made during the course of the debate, and to thank Deputies, most of whom spoke in a very constructive manner, for their observations. The question of future policy in regard to accommodation grants for hotels was raised. It is true to say that in a great part of the country there are now sufficient top-grade hotels, particularly in Dublin, and that the emphasis should be on the accommodation required for the middle income group. I made that clear in my opening statement.

I also indicated that I had charged Bord Fáilte with the responsibility for reappraising the whole of their policy —which was a normal thing to do at the end of the first period of the First Economic Programme—to see what could be done to attract a large number of the middle-income group to this country. In actual fact, since the grants for accommodation commenced, some 1,500 more rooms have been built in the B, B/C and C classes. Only about 9 per cent of the hotel proprietors of those classes applied for improvement grants, but I am hoping when the new accommodation grants are published, we will get more applications. Up to now, they have been rather disappointing, but I am quite certain that the proprietors of the hotels whose accommodation was increased by 1,500 rooms have been quite satisfied. I have not heard any complaints that it was not worth while extending, and investing their own capital and securing grants from Bord Fáilte. When I look at the list of places where those hotels are situated, they are not related to any particular area. I can only regret that more hotel proprietors of the same class did not apply. During the past five years, some success has been achieved in that direction.

The new accommodation grants, when announced, will take into account the necessity for attracting tourists of modest means, and the new incentive scheme will be designed to cover the full range of accommodation, including middle-grade hotels, guesthouses, holiday camps and holiday villages. It will cover every type of accommodation designed to suit people of the middle-income group.

In addition, it should be pointed out that Bord Fáilte now include in their promotional publicity the names of some 760 unregistered premises providing over 3,000 bedrooms which have been inspected by Bord Fáilte. The proprietors benefit from being on the lists in the various Bord Fáilte offices. Much is being done to encourage tourism among people who usually go to those modest premises where, one Deputy said, there is a more homely atmosphere and the prices are reasonable.

Deputy T. Lynch asked about the publication of grants for resort development and wanted to know what grants are available for different areas. The grants for resort development are shown in the Board's report for 1962-63. Deputy Lynch also made various observations in regard to the extent to which I am prepared to answer questions. I made a very full statement on that matter and I think Deputy Corish dealt with it in a very constructive way. He made a certain proposal of a rather fundamental kind, that a Dáil Committee of all Parties should periodically interview executives of State Companies. That goes far beyond the suggestions that are made generally by Deputies in regard to the relationship between the Dáil, myself and State companies. I think there would be a lot of objections to it.

Deputy Lynch showed the House a photograph from a newspaper and asked some questions in relation to the hotel in the photograph and the firm advertised. I think that is a perfect example of how impossible it would be if I started to answer questions on such very detailed matters. The whole time of the House could be taken up with questions about State companies, including questions about the character of their advertisements in a particular issue of a newspaper.

Quite obviously, there must be some reasonable limitation on the extent to which questions can be asked on the day-to-day activities of State companies. Theoretically, I should like to answer every question, but I do not think it would be practical. I think the attitude of the Ceann Comhairle is very reasonable, particularly as on an Estimate debate, or on a Bill dealing with the activities of a State company, the Minister in charge—both myself and my predecessors—generally tries to answer as many detailed points as possible. Of course, if there are any allegations of a serious character, naturally they are attended to.

Deputy Cosgrave asked for proof that promotional publicity by Bord Fáilte pays. It is very difficult to prove that any particular piece of publicity directly results in tourists coming here. All I can say is that all countries engage in enormously expensive publicity by all possible media. I think the standard of Bord Fáilte publicity is very high for the most part. But I can say this, first of all: when it is convenient to key publicity, or to key advertisements, so that people can reply to a particular advertisement and ask for a booklet or for further information, there is then some opportunity of seeing how effective the advertisement is. There are also certain types of publicity issued by Bord Fáilte in which private firms advertise and key their advertisements.

I am satisfied through conversations with the Chairman of the Board that analyses of key advertising show that the advertising is effective. I do not think I can say anything more about that except to add that as Bord Fáilte grow in strength, and as their income grows, I naturally encourage the Board more and more to carry out their policy of personal contact publicity by inviting travel agents to this country to see the country for themselves, by assisting holiday writers when they come here, and by doing what is possible in the way of issuing films to be shown in other countries; in other words, making the publicity as personal as possible. The more publicity we can do of that kind, the more valuable will be the full use of promotional work by way of brochures, photographic matter, and so forth.

A number of Deputies have referred to the promotion of new regional companies. Bord Fáilte were in charge of the arrangements. There have been some complaints but I think it is inevitable that in the initial stage of development of an entirely new regional company which will be eventually continued on a democratic basis, there should be certain disappointments. I happened to be in Waterford recently and one of the members of the Junior Chamber of Commerce made a complaint about the character of the representation and its initial board. Two of the members of the chamber of commerce got up and said it would be a pity to torpedo this first effort and that this council should be allowed to go ahead and then, when the final constitutional articles of association were settled and procedure became democratic, everybody would have an opportunity of expressing his view in one form or another in order to ensure that the best council would be appointed. That is all I can say on that subject.

Some of the regional councils have been formed without there being any adverse comment. In some cases there has been adverse comment but it has been met by counter comment. I think it better to let Bord Fáilte—who engage in this new phase of development, in which, as I have said, there are bound to be some personal protests and some criticism—make further progress. I would always make proposals to Bord Fáilte if I thought it wise to do so in regard to the general structure of these regional councils. I would certainly discuss with them any allegations of a serious kind such as distortions in the form of election or nomination to the council. To date, there have been no complaints of a serious kind.

Deputy Cosgrave asked about the effect of the ninth round of wage increases on the finances of CIE. Discussions on the ninth round are still proceeding and, therefore, it is not possible to say what the final additional cost of the ninth round will be to CIE. It is likely to be fairly considerable—I should think probably between £1 million and £1½ million a year. In reply to Deputy Byrne, Dr. Andrews, the Chairman of CIE, recently made an announcement, a week or ten days ago, that fares are bound to increase as a result of the ninth round increase in wages. I think it is true to say that right through the development of CIE, when it has been found necessary to increase charges, if the charges were not increased, the subsidy paid by the taxpayers would be absolutely exorbitant.

Can the Minister say what percentage increase is expected?

I cannot say. Deputy Cosgrave and other Deputies referred to the CIE pensions. I dealt with that fully in connection with a Private Member's motion. I pointed out that the contributory old age pension, increased in January of this year, very much increased the total amount made available to CIE pensioners and that a married pensioner would be earning from 99/- a week to something more than £6, according to which type of pension he already receives. I have said that when the general level of pensions is finally decided as a result of the Commission's report thereon, it would then be possible to see whether some effort could be made to increase the basic pensions of the CIE pensioners. Having regard to the Social Welfare pension now paid to them it would seem unnecessary to make changes in two bites. It is better to wait and see what can be done as a result of the Commission's report.

Deputy Cosgrave asked about the publication of certain items in the reports of State companies. Interest is not charged on the issued share capital of Irish Shipping, or in the case of the air companies, but the air companies in their last annual report, observed that State capital was not remunerated, so there was no concealment of the position. As the Deputy knows, I made a very detailed statement in regard to that matter. I pointed out that Aer Lingus were made to develop their service without waiting to accumulate profits from the more profitable service in which they were first engaged, that is, Dublin to London. The company was made to expand at a very rapid rate in unusual conditions involving a great deal of short haul traffic. We had gone as far as insisting that the air companies should provide a greater part of the new capital for their latest expansion and development.

As I said in my speech earlier, out of some £10 million new capital expenditure, the air companies are expected to find three-quarters of the amount from their own resources. I hope, other things being equal, that that trend will continue. This will depend on a number of factors—the type of aircraft used, the general economic conditions attending air travel. I should like to see this trend continuing and, if possible later, to see some remuneration for some of the capital made available. At least the air companies have now increased the proportion of the capital they are raising from their own resources over and above what it has been up to now.

Deputy Cosgrave asked for particulars about the effect of the ninth round of wage and salary increases on some of the other State companies. The answer is that discussions are still in progress with the staffs of the ESB and Bord na Móna so that it would be impossible for me to make any statement at the present time. He referred also to the CIE contribution to the superannuation fund and described it as being small. Of course we can always argue about that. The 1962/63 figure was £574,000. I do not think that figure can be described as low.

Again in reply to Deputy Cosgrave, he no doubt realises that there is a Bord Fáilte resort development scheme for Dún Laoghaire which is now being examined. I do not recall what the cost would be, but a local contribution of 20 per cent would be essential. I hope the Deputy, as he is interested in tourism, will have an opportunity of seeing the plan put forward by Bord Fáilte. There is also a plan devised by an officer of the Dún Laoghaire Corporation of some significance. If the Bord Fáilte plan is implemented and if Dún Laoghaire Corporation accept their responsibilities in the matter of raising the finance, I think it will bring about a vast improvement.

Deputy Cosgrave suggested that the Shannon Industrial Estate might have been located at either Limerick or Ennis. I gather he spoke rather tentatively. The reason for its location at Shannon is that Shannon is a customs-free airport where goods can be imported free of duty. Another reason for establishing the estate there is that we believe an industrial estate adjacent to an airport has a real intrinsic value since the aircraft can taxi to the factory door. This is a real advantage. I might say that the development there is proceeding. A good number of the companies engage in the manufacture of commodities of high value which lend themselves to air freight.

Deputy Lynch referred to changes in the charges for carrying livestock in Abbeyleix. Unless he has facts and particulars, I cannot answer him. I know that CIE have made a number of changes in their charges. They have altered the charge for casual traffic but where they have had to change over from rail to road, they are giving satisfaction to the farming community in regard to charges for livestock carriage. Occasionally I have complaints, but as far as I can gather from such observations as have been made, the prices in relation to the service are reasonable, comparing road with rail. Occasionally we get complaints that lorries are not available for the traffic but I do not get any complaints to the effect that the prices charged have been burdensome.

Deputy Byrne referred to the general question of Dublin bus fares. In this matter, one must make comparisons with bus fares and costs in other countries. If the Dublin bus fares compare relatively well with provincial bus fares in Great Britain, I do not think we can say they are criminally high. That is just a general statement and is the best I can make in the circumstances.

What I can say very definitely is that if the surplus revenue in the bus service is related to the loss on the Dublin suburban rail system—and nobody would think of closing the suburban rail system, particularly having regard to the growing traffic congestion—the net surplus is nothing about which the Deputy should worry in relation to impositions on the Dublin public or of concealing dishonestly what he seems to think an enormous surplus. The surplus of £1 million is simply not true. It does not even approach that figure. I should make it clear that a very considerable proportion of the workers in CIE are living in Dublin and one has to consider the value to Dublin of CIE in relation to this matter. If you compare the loss on the rail system, which is a commuter system which loses money here as in other countries, with the surplus on the bus services, no one needs to worry about the figure.

A question was asked about bus shelters in Dublin. I myself wish we could have more. I understand there is great difficulty in getting sites and a great objection to building shelters because of vandalism. I hope these difficulties can be overcome as the years go by.

Deputy Byrne referred to the cross-Channel passenger services. Both my Department and Bord Fáilte have been pressing for years for improvements in the cross-Channel services. We were able to persuade the British Railways authorities to appoint an Irish manager responsible for all cross-Channel shipping services at this end and I really should pay a tribute to his work. He has succeeded in getting attention paid to the whole question of improving the services.

Perhaps Deputy Byrne has not read the official announcement of British Railways. They are at last taking a great part of the first-class accommodation in the Cambria and Hibernia and turning it into second-class accommodation. This will enable the provision of a reclining seat in the second-class section to every passenger. In addition the extra platform at Holyhead and better customs facilities have helped to improve the services.

Deputy Corish asks about developments in Rosslare. It so happens that the new chairman of the Western Region is taking a very considerable interest in seeing what can be done to expand the Rosslare-Fishguard services. The Fishguard and Rosslare Shipping Company, owned jointly by British Railways and CIE, are now discussing how far the car-carrying capacities of that service can be expanded. An announcement has recently been made in the newpapers about side-loading of one of the vessels owned by the company.

I was very interested to hear from the Chairman of the Western Region that he had some market research done into the possible increase in the number of cars coming along that route to this country. He thought there would be a very big increase in the number of cars and realised the necessity for considering the future of the whole service. I was delighted to hear that his report was as optimistic as that of Bord Fáilte. The development of the car ferry services between Rosslare and Fishguard will be of very great advantage to tourism particularly in the east, south-east and south-west.

Some questions were asked about the shipping service. In reply to Deputy Corry, Irish Shipping Limited wherever possible give a reasonable share of their repair work to Irish shipping yards. Very often the ships are abroad when they require repair and it would not be economic to bring them back. In general, they do what they can to make sure that, wherever possible, ships are repaired in this country.

Deputy Lynch referred to the size of Irish Shipping Limited vessels in relation to their being able to use the larger harbours of the country. Most of the vessels of Irish Shipping Limited can, in fact, use Cork, Waterford and Limerick, if not fully laden, at least part laden.

Deputy Corish asked whether Irish Shipping Limited uses liferafts. Liferafts are available on Irish Shipping Limited boats as in the case of other companies. Of course, the vessels of Irish Shipping Limited do not carry passengers and the problem of providing lifesaving equipment for the crew is an easier one once no passengers are carried.

In reply to Deputy Corish, the port of Wexford is, I understand, closed at present but a scheme is being prepared by the Harbour Board for a piled wall to keep a channel clear. This is being looked at by the Office of Public Works. It may or may not be practicable. I cannot say what the position at the moment is.

Deputy Dillon, I think, made a mistake about the loss of CIE for 1962/ 63. He gave a figure of over £2 million. The actual figure is £1,760,000, from which will be deducted the subsidy of £1,175,000. The Deputy perhaps had not noticed that the subsidy is deducted from that loss.

The statement here is that the net losses of CIE for 1962/63 are shown in Table 1 and it goes on to say: "The figures exclude the annual grant of £1.17 million payable to CIE under the Transport Act, 1958."

I have just had it checked. I have read those figures so many times.

I am reading from the Minister's brief. It says that the net losses of CIE for 1962/63 are shown in Table 1 and that "the figures exclude the annual grant of £1.17 million payable to CIE under the Transport Act, 1958."

I used the word "exclude" in the wrong sense. In other words, if you add the subsidy, the final net loss to them from the point of view of the Act is £1,760,000, minus £1.17 million. I admit that if one uses the word "exclude", it could confuse a person reading this.

A large surplus in 1960/61?

That was correct. They used up all the money either in capital or for other purposes.

I think the Minister will agree his phraseology is rather odd?

I am willing to admit to the Deputy that one can use the word "exclude" in two senses in this connection. I do not think I need at this juncture start a tremendous argument on the operation of the 1958 Transport Act because, as Deputy Dillon knows, we shall have a full discussion on that when the Bill is introduced. But it is not true, as Deputy Dillon knows, that the then Minister for Industry and Commerce got up in the House and said: "If you enable CIE to close a great many stations and lines, I promise you CIE will make a profit." I defy the Deputy to find any statement made to that effect. We have all of us had too much experience of the successive financial difficulties of the transport company to indulge in promises of that kind. I do not know what the Deputy meant when he said that. In fact, the closing of the railway lines and stations has resulted in an economy of over £600,000 a year to CIE. If they had not engaged in the reorganisation—a full account of which has been given to every Deputy by CIE— they would be losing between £3 million and £4 million at present.

Deputy Dillon also referred to increases in the cost of living, but he went beyond what could be described as a discussion of the Estimate. I just want to reply to him that the cost of living has gone up annually by the same amount between 1957 and 1963 as it went up between 1954 and 1957. Sterling is gradually losing its value as many other currencies are losing their value, too.

Deputy Mullen referred to staff accommodation at Dublin Airport. I have had no complaints that the staff accommodation in the future construction contemplated is defective. If Deputy Mullen has any serious complaint to make, I would be glad if he would write to me about it. He also asked about meters. There are very few meters now used in the Dublin lighting services of the ESB. I can say that the charge for the meter does not include an element that would enable the tenant of the house to finally purchase the meter. The charge simply pays for the maintenance and the original capital cost of the meter.

Motion put and declared negatived.

Question: "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration", put and declared lost.
The Dáil adjourned at 10 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 26th February, 1964.
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