Deputy Ryan gave notice that he wished to raise the subject matter of Question No. 9 on today's Order Paper.
Adjournment Debate. - Leinster House Portraits.
Mr. Ryan
Since I raised this matter this afternoon, I understand that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, which is composed of members of Dáil Eireann, have met and that it is the unanimous ruling of that Committee that the final decision as to what portraits shall hang in this House belongs to the Ceann Comhairle and to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
On a point of order, are the proceedings of the Committee not confidential?
That has always been the case.
The Deputy is giving a résumé of the proceedings of the Committee.
Mr. Ryan
With respect, I am not giving any résumé of the proceedings of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. What I am stating is that the Committee has come to the decision that the final decision as to what portraits shall hang in this House rests with the Ceann Comhairle and the Committee and it is that decision I am bringing to the notice of the House.
On a point of order, is the decision at today's meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges not a confidential matter?
What can I do? It is no longer confidential.
Can the Deputy not be ruled out of order?
Is it not a fact that this was not a new decision? It is something that has always existed and was merely unanimously confirmed today.
The ruling of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has nothing to do with the merits or demerits of what Deputy Ryan intends to put before the House.
To this extent, that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges agree with the rules as operated.
If the proceedings of the Committee are confidential, we are making a very good effort to prevent their being confidential.
As the Chair remarked, they are not confidential any longer.
In any event, I have said that has nothing whatever to do with the matter which is coming before us now, and if Deputy Ryan wishes to proceed, I am prepared to allow him.
Mr. Ryan
My question has a bearing upon the behaviour of the Government and of the Board of Works, in particular, in relation to the withholding of certain portraits from this House. The Committee unanimously decided that the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government are usurping the functions of the Ceann Comhairle and of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, and thereby are insulting the elected representatives of the Irish people. I make no apology to anybody in this House for making the public aware of the fact that even the Fianna Fáil members of the Committee, including the Parliamentary Secretary to the Taoiseach, were unanimous in coming to the decision that what had been done was wrong. Therefore, the Parliamentary Secretary and the Government stand condemned and there is no need for me to say any more.
You, Sir, have rightly pointed out that the subject matter of Question No. 9 which Deputy Ryan raises on the Adjournment tonight has nothing to do with any decision which may have been arrived at by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I would say, however, in passing that Deputy Ryan was not present at the meeting and neither was I; but his report of what took place there is incorrect. I should also like to point out that there is no necessity for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges to reiterate the fact that you, Sir, are in charge of any decisions as far as the House is concerned. I would remind the House, however, that in the final analysis, it is the Government who decide what portraits or busts are hung here or what alterations or additions may be made.
Be that as it may, a large reconstruction job is taking place in Leinster House. Every member of the Houses of the Oireachtas, every member of the Press and anyone who has any connections with Leinster House is well aware that there has been a certain amount of upset. As I pointed out today in reply to one of Deputy Ryan's supplementaries, other pictures were removed besides the three portraits of Michael Collins, Arthur Griffith, and Kevin O'Higgins. The portrait of Eamon de Valera——
Mr. Ryan
Was never hung and the Parliamentary Secretary knows it. None of the other pictures was ever displayed in this House.
Will Deputy Ryan please restrain himself and allow the Parliamentary Secretary to proceed?
Deputy Ryan's statement is about as correct as the rest of his statements on this matter. The portraits of Eamon de Valera, John A. Costello, W.T. Cosgrave and Robert Barton were hung in the corridor at the entrance to the restaurant—a most unsuitable location, I agree.
Mr. Ryan
For how long? For an afternoon? Give the dates on which they were hung.
They were hung there for approximately a week.
Mr. Ryan
They were never seen.
I do not intend to be crossexamined by Deputy Ryan. He had ample time and I propose to take plenty of time here tonight within the time allowed to me under Standing Orders. I have contradicted Deputy Ryan when he said these portraits were never hung. They were hung and they were removed. There was no objection when the portrait of Eamon de Valera was removed.
Mr. Ryan
Those portraits were never seen.
The Deputy is in the precincts of this House so seldom that I do not doubt he would not see them.
Mr. Ryan
That is a gross slander and the Parliamentary Secretary knows it.
I must ask Deputy Ryan to restrain himself or leave the House.
Mr. Ryan
If I am not provoked, there is no need for me to be restrained.
There was no objection when the other portraits I mentioned were removed and those which comprised the Taylor Bequest. I was approached by representatives of the building contractors and they told me that if all the pictures in Leinster House were not removed, they could not be responsible for any damage caused. As I say, the other pictures except the three in question, were also removed. I am not so naive as not to think that the removal of the three portraits in this corridor might give Deputies such as Deputy Ryan some cause for comment. Therefore, I was particularly careful to note that the late President Kennedy would be coming to this House to address us on 28th June, 1963, and I instructed my officials not to remove these portraits until the late President had spoken in this House. I tried to be as fair as possible in that regard. After the President addressed the House, early in July the pictures were taken for cleaning.
Some play was made here today by Deputy Ryan with the long delay. I pointed out to the House that the restorer in question, who is also restorer for the National Gallery paintings, was ill and it was only recently that he returned to his office. We have no knowledge of any other competent persons to do this work. It may well be that they are there. But, apart from all that, there was nothing insidious, nothing sinister, in our removing the portraits or in the fact that they have not yet been re-hung.
I might point out also, in passing, that the portraits of Deputy John A. Costello, former Taoiseach and of former Deputy William T. Cosgrave were commissioned by the Minister for Finance, Dr. Ryan, in 1960. If there is a suggestion of bitterness, it emanates from the minds of a very small number of Deputies, and I am glad to say, a very small minority.
I should have said earlier that quite a major job of reconstruction was done on the staircase leading from the lobby. As Deputies will recall, there was a tremendous amount of scaffolding brought in; there were heavy weights there for the purpose of testing the beams, and so on and, as I have said, the builders asked me, long before July, to have these paintings removed.
On the question, again, that Fianna Fáil have some bitterness or some ulterior motive, I should like to point out that the files and the records point to quite the opposite. For instance, there was, in 1923, in the front of Leinster Lawn, a memorial commissioned by the then Government to Arthur Griffith and Michael Collins. That was constructed of lath and plaster. It collapsed when the Fianna Fáil Government first came into power. But it is interesting to note that in regard to the obelisk which now stands in Leinster Lawn a direction was given on 16th September, 1947, for the preparation of a design in the form of an obelisk to be erected in Leinster Lawn, the design to include provision for a cross and for medallions of Griffith, Collins and O'Higgins. That was a decision of a Fianna Fáil Taoiseach and a Fianna Fáil Government. Surely that is not indicative of any bitterness or small-mindedness in any way?
I have already stated that the Government have decided that portraits of seven members of the Cabinet of 1921, comprised of Eamon de Valera, William T. Cosgrave, Michael Collins, Cathal Brugha, Robert Barton, Arthur Griffith and Austin Stack will be hung in the lobby or vestibule of the new entrance to Leinster House which is known at present as the front office, when the partitions are taken away. That will be the most honoured place in the re-designed Leinster House and will be, I hope, an example to our generation, as well as generations to come, of the ancient unity which existed at that time and which I hope will exist again.
I could make a contentious speech here tonight in reply to the Deputy. I have no intention of doing so. Neither the Deputy nor I was here at the time the Cabinet of 1921 was formed. I certainly think that modern Ireland has no time for the bitterness or quarrels of that period and that there is far too much work to be done in Ireland today and all of us, on all sides of the House, have to look to the future. I am glad to say that there are very many Deputies on all sides of the House who have that spirit.
I should also like to say that, the seven portraits of the Cabinet of 1921 having been catered for in the most honoured position of the House, there will be put in a place of honour portraits of John A. Costello, a former Taoiseach, the late Patrick Hogan and the late Kevin O'Higgins. There will be co-operation with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the Ceann Comhairle. If there has been any lack of courtesy, certainly it is not due to the Government but can be laid at my feet and certainly there was no intention at any time of showing any lack of courtesy as far as the House and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges were concerned. I intend to co-operate with that body as fairly as possible and to tell them what the Government's intentions are and certainly the Government will be guided greatly by what they may suggest. It is a Committee comprised of Deputies of all Parties.
There is so much more which could be said but I intend to refrain from sounding any contentious note. As a member of the same generation as Deputy Ryan, I am deeply aware of the presence which we all feel in this House of the late President Kennedy. Every one of us was deeply impressed by a phrase which he quoted from Yeats in the course of his magnificent address to the House:
Let us not casually reduce that great past to a trouble of fools, for we need not feel the bitterness of the past to discover its meaning for the present and the future.
That expresses the feeling of all well-intentioned people for the future of our country. At this time, with critical decisions, not only before the Government, but before the Dáil, with regard to the deployment of our soldiers possibly in Cyprus, a matter which has to come before this House, we cannot be unmindful of the maturity which was purchased in blood by our young men in the Congo, and surely it should be possible for people of their generation, like Deputy Ryan and myself and the younger people here, to adopt a more mature attitude and to show that we as members of the Legislature are deeply conscious of their sacrifice and are deeply aware also of our responsibilities to them and to the Irish nation as a whole.
Mr. Ryan
It is a pity you did not show that maturity last week. You and the Taoiseach refused to hang the pictures again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.50 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12th March, 1964.