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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 23 Apr 1964

Vol. 209 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move :

That a sum not exceeding £9,608,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1965, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of Grants in Aid.

The net Estimate of £15,058,000 for my Department is shown in the Estimates volume as approximately £1,548,000 greater than last year's. Allowance should be made, however, for the Supplementary Estimate of £330,000 which was voted in February last, so that the actual increase is about £1,218,000. Of that amount, £78,000 is in respect of grants-in-aid payable to Radio Éireann from, in effect, broadcasting licence fees and, accordingly, the net increase for the services directly provided by my Department is £1,140,000.

Most of the increase is due to the continuing expansion of the telephone service and in respect of increased expenditure on engineering staff, stores and contracts works and on additional operating staff, and I will refer to these matters in more detail when dealing with the individual subheads.

Before taking the individual subheads, I should like to mention two points. The first is that this Estimate contains no provision for the general civil service pay increase of 12 per cent granted as from the 1st February this year. I understand that the Minister for Finance will introduce a global Vote to cover the expenditure falling on all Departments. Neither does this Estimate include provision for any increases that may be granted to staff in my Department as a result of the many status and similar claims which have been put forward.

The second is that, as Deputies will probably have already learned from the introductory notes to the Estimates volume, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs will charge other Departments for services formerly rendered free and will pay other Departments for the services it formerly received free.

These arrangements will not involve any additional charge on the Exchequer, and their purpose is to assist the Department to operate on more commercial lines, in keeping with the concept that it is a trading concern paying its way over the sum of its activities. The matter was discussed at some length on last year's Estimate. A more complete picture of the Department's operation, covering State and outside business alike, will now emerge in the Estimate. Appropriation Account and Finance Account figures and a much smaller range of adjustments will be required to convert these figures into the trading picture provided in our Commercial Accounts.

As regards the Estimate before us, the various receipts expected have been included in the Appropriations-in-Aid, where appropriate, and payments to be made by my Department to others have likewise been included in the appropriate subheads. Payments in respect of the public services of the Department—postal, telegraph, and telephone—will, like other revenue from these services, be paid into the Exchequer as tax revenue.

Returning to the Estimate, the subheads with substantial variations are:—

SALARIES, WAGES AND ALLOWANCES

The increase over 1963-64, including £66,000 in the Supplementary Estimate, is £312,000. It is mainly for additional staff required for the expansion of the telephone service—technical staff for construction and maintenance work and telephonist staff for dealing with the growing volume of traffic. There is also provision for additional staff on the postal side, mainly because of the growth of delivery work in Dublin.

ACCOMODATION AND BUILDING CHARGES

The increase over 1963-64, after allowing for a saving of some £26,000 in the Supplementary Estimate, is £756,000. Of this, £532,000 represents new payments to other Departments in respect of services formerly rendered free; mainly £67,000 to the Valuation Office in recoupment of contributions paid to local authorities in lieu of rates on property occupied by the Department, and £463,000 to the Office of Public Works for the construction, maintenance and heating of buildings. There is an increase of £140,000 for telephone capital buildings, which have always been paid for. There is also an increase of £53,000 in respect of additional rentings of international telecommunication circuits, which bring us not only improved services but also a larger share of the foreign traffic revenue.

CONVEYANCE OF MAILS

The increase of £27,000 over 1963-64, shown in the Estimates volume, represents, in fact, a reduction of £69,000 when the additional provision in the Supplementary Estimate last year is taken into account. An additional £96,000 was provided mainly to cover payment of accounts originally expected to fall due in 1964-65, and a reduction in the provision for this year has ensued.

POSTAL AND GENERAL STORES

The increase over 1963-64, including £34,200 in the Supplementary Estimate, is £140,800. Again the difference is mainly due to providing for cash payments to other Government Departments—£29,000 to the Revenue Commissioners for the production of stamps, et cetera and £86,000 to the Stationery Office for paper, printing and office requisites in general—for services which formerly involved no charge to this Vote.

ENGINEERING STORES AND EQUIPMENT

The increase over 1963-64, including £109,000 in the Supplementary Estimate, is £1,545,000. The major portion of the increase, about £1,300,000, is to meet the requirements of the greatly expanded Telephone Capital Development programme, both for the direct purchase of stores and for payments to contractors. About £250,000 of the increase is to provide for additional maintenance work, which of course has to keep pace with the growth of the telephone system.

TELEPHONE CAPITAL REPAYMENTS

Continuing heavy investment in telephone development is responsible for the increase of £318,000 in the annuities for the repayment of the capital advanced.

GRANT EQUIVALENT TO NET RECEIPTS FROM BROADCASTING LICENCE FEES—GRANT-IN-AID

An amount equivalent to the net broadcasting licence fee revenue from television and sound licences is transferred to Radio Éireann by this grant-in-aid, which shows an increase over 1963-64 of £150,000, after allowing for £235,000 in the Supplementary Estimate. It is expected that revenue will be buoyant to that extent.

APPROPRIATIONS IN AID

The increase over 1963-64, allowing for the additional £200,000 odd provided in the Supplementary Estimate, is approximately £1,900,000. Recovery from Telephone Capital funds in respect of the enlarged telephone development programme is responsible for £1,385,000 of this increase. Overall receipts from other Government Departments are expected to go up by £513,000, mainly as a result of the new accounting arrangement whereby Departments will pay for services formerly rendered free.

POSTAL SERVICE

During 1963, there was an upward trend in postal traffic. The volume handled at Christmas was the highest recorded. In the foreign post, first class mail for Europe was up by 10 per cent and second class mail to extra European destinations rose by 16 per cent., outgoing air parcels increased by 25 per cent. and surface parcels by 12 per cent. over last year.

In August the weight limit for parcels accepted for delivery in Ireland and Great Britain was increased from 15 lb. to 22 lb. This new facility has been availed of extensively by business firms and the public generally.

During the Christmas period, containers were used for the carriage of parcel mails by arrangement between my Department and the British Post Office on the one hand, and CIE and British Railways on the other. Motor transport is being used to an increasing extent for the conveyance and delivery of mails where the conditions are favourable. One of the main difficulties in extending its use for delivery purposes is, of course, the number of off-the-road houses. Motor scooters are being introduced experimentally on certain posts.

The use of Dublin postal district numbers continues to grow. Sixty-six per cent of mail originating in Dublin for delivery there now bears a district number and the overall figure for local, domestic and foreign mail delivered in Dublin is 61 per cent. Recently new posting boxes have been installed at the GPO and at St. Andrew Street in Dublin. Each box has two apertures, one for "Dublin only" and the other for "All other places". Similar boxes will be provided in other parts of the central city area. In conjuction with this firms using meter post were asked to make similar divisions of their correspondence. The response to this appeal has been far in excess of my Department's expectations and has very much eased the sorting problem during the evening pressure period. I am glad to pay tribute to the public generally, and to users of the meter post in particular, for their co-operation in these measures which are designed to expedite the postal service.

A special "Europa" stamp was issued in September, 1963, simultaneously with other member countries of the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunication Administrations. A stamp to commemorate the centenary of the founding of the International Red Cross was issued in December, 1963. This was the first Irish stamp to be printed in more than one colour and was also the first stamp to be produced by the photogravure process. In addition to the Wolfe Tone commemoratives recently placed on sale there will be a special issue to mark Ireland's participation in the New York World's Fair and there will be a "Europa" issue next September.

In October last I appointed the stamp Design Advisory Committee to advise me in regard to new designs for our permanent series of stamps and for such special stamps as may be issued from time to time. The Committee invited suggestions in the public press shortly afterwards for designs and themes but the selection of a suitable theme or themes is obviously one of the most difficult tasks facing the Committee.

TELEGRAPH AND TELEX SERVICES

The decline in telegraph traffic continued during last year, the number of telegrams handled falling by about 100,000 to 1,573,000. The decrease can be accounted for by the fall of about 20 per cent in the number of incoming telegrams from Great Britain and the Six Counties. Foreign telegraph traffic again increased and offset the reduction in our internal traffic and outward telegrams to Great Britain and the Six Counties.

During the year it was necessary to increase the charges for telegrams to a number of European countries by amounts ranging from ½d. to 5d. per word in order to offset the higher payments we now have to make to the British Post Office for transit under the International Telegraph Regulations. The rates for telegrams to six countries, including France and Germany, were not affected by the revision.

During the year the Gentex service was introduced for telegrams to and from Belgium, Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg. This service is based on direct connection between the country of origin and the country of destination, thus eliminating intermediate handling and speeding up transmission. It is hoped to extend the arrangement to other countries in the near future.

The Telex service is continuing to prove more popular. Although internal telex calls declined slightly during the year, calls to Great Britain increased by 20 per cent and foreign calls by 29 per cent.

Telex calls can now be made from Ireland to 74 other countries. There are 200 subscribers' installations as compared with 189 last year and further applications for service have to be put on a waiting list, pending the introduction of automatic working.

I am glad to say that the automatic telex equipment has now been installed and that testing has commenced. This is necessarily a lengthy process as the equipment is complex but the testing should be completed within the next few months. Special arrangements have been made to provide service for the bulk of waiting applicants shortly after automatic working is introduced.

The only telex exchange is in Dublin and the rentals payable by subscribers depend on the distance from the exchange. With a view to making the service more attractive to provincial firms it has been decided to reduce the mileage charges payable by subscribers whose premises are situated more than ten miles from the exchange. The new excess mileage charges will be 30/- per mile for the portion of the circuit between 10 and 55 miles and £1 per mile thereafter. These rates represent a reduction of 10/- per mile for distances up to 200 miles. As a result the annual rental payable, for example, by a subscriber in Galway city will be reduced from £340 to £287 and that of a Cork subscriber from £382 to £313. These reduced rates will be introduced when we change over to automatic working.

Telex calls made by our subscribers are at present charged for in accordance with the internationally accepted method of a minimum for three minutes and pro rata per minute thereafter. When the new system is in operation subscribers who obtain calls automatically will purchase time in 2d. units, the amount of time varying with the distance over which the call is made. Thus it will be possible to make short calls to European countries at much lower cost than at present.

TELEPHONE SERVICE

In 1963 the number of effective calls handled was 179 million, an increase of 12 million over the previous year. Some 1,150 new trunk circuits were established, the majority by means of cables, with a total route mileage of 40,000 miles.

The most important new cabling schemes that were completed or advanced during the year were those connecting Waterford to Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir, Carlow to Portlaoise and Athy, Tralee to Killarney and Listowel, Clonmel to Cahir and Fethard, and Limerick to Rathkeale.

Further additions to the trunk network were provided by means of radio links, including routes brought into service between Dublin and Arklow, Waterford and Wexford, Waterford and Enniscorthy, Wexford and Enniscorthy, and Limerick and Tralee. A link connecting Athlone to Limerick and Tralee is expected to be in full service before the summer and work is also nearing completion on radio links between Dublin and Wicklow and between Wicklow and Arklow.

Before leaving the question of improved circuiting, I should mention that during the year the number of cross-Channel circuits was increased by almost 30 per cent and the number of transatlantic circuits was increased from two to four.

Exchange development included the installation of additional equipment at 188 Exchanges and the opening of 22 new automatic exchanges. Since the year ended a further 20 automatic exchanges have been opened.

Subscriber trunk dialling was introduced in 30 additional areas. Nearly all the automatic exchanges in the country have this facility which is now available to over 70 per cent of all subscribers.

While the main emphasis during the year, and particularly in the second half of it, was on the provision of trunk circuits, it was found possible to connect some 14,350 subscribers and to make progress on laying local underground cables for subscribers circuits in preparation for the general clearance of waiting applicants.

I have been asked whether I could indicate, in respect of each exchange area, when trunking and similar work will be sufficiently advanced to enable new telephones to be connected on demand. I have carefully considered this request but I am afraid that I cannot undertake to comply with it for the present. Engineering staffing is arranged on a basis of large districts and the limited force available in each district has to be assigned to the most urgent work awaiting its attention. As I have just said, the first priority is the provision of trunk circuits. In a district where there are trunking arrears all other work in the district, including the connection of new subscribers, must take second place. Consequently, even though there may be no special equipment difficulty in a particular exchange area, waiting applications there may have to be deferred simply because the staff required to attend to them is fully engaged elsewhere. Similarly, applications in one area may have to be put back pending clearance of older or more urgent applications in another area catered for by the same constructions staff.

During the debate on the Telephone Capital Bill on 5th December, 1963, and the debate on the Supplementary Estimate on 27th February last I dealt at length with the position of the telephone service and the difficulties that face us. I do not think that Deputies will wish me to go over the whole ground again. I may say, however, that extra trunk circuits have been provided or will come into service before summer which will greatly improve conditions on the routes concerned. On some other routes the equipment required to give relief is not yet available and the service will, unavoidably, be below a desirable standard. I have explained before on a number of occasions that it often takes some years from the date of ordering telecommunications equipment to the time it is in service. For that reason and because of the extent of the works programme to be carried through, it is not, unfortunately, possible to effect a quick, spectacular improvement of the whole system. Everything possible is being done to hasten delivery and installation of the equipment needed and special measures have been taken to ensure that there will be an ample number of telephonist staff.

Before leaving the subject of telephones, I should make some reference to communication satellites. The successful experiments in this field have demonstrated to everyone that this new technique is a thoroughly practical one.

The United States has already declared that it intends to establish, in conjunction and in co-operation with other countries, a commercial satellite system as part of an improved global communications network. The major part of our inter-continental telephone traffic is to North America; it is increasing at the rate of 15 per cent per annum and we will need more circuits shortly. It is clear that any extra transatlantic circuits which are required between now and 1970 will be provided by a satellite system rather than by submarine cable. Our practical interest in the matter is therefore obvious.

Interested countries on this side of the Atlantic, including ourselves, have joined together in a European Conference on Satellite Communications for the purpose of discussing proposals with the United States and Canada. Agreement has been reached on a number of points and a further meeting between experts from both sides has been arranged for the near future. If full agreement can be reached the various European administrations propose to contribute capital to the system broadly on the basis of national shares of intercontinental traffic. My Department's investment would come from Telephone Capital Funds but it is not yet clear whether or not amending legislation would be necessary.

SAVING SERVICES

During 1963 deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank amounted to £22 millions, and withdrawals to £19.7 millions, being in both cases slightly more than the previous year. The total balance, including interest, due to depositors had been £97.2 millions at the 31st December, 1962, and at the end of 1963 it was £101.9 millions. So, for the first time, this figure has exceeded £100 millions —a notable landmark in the history of the Savings Bank, and an encouraging sign of the ever-growing service it provides.

In the Trustee Savings Banks, deposits and withdrawals during 1963 were approximately £1.4 millions and £0.5 million, respectively, both being slightly down on the 1962 figures. However, the total amount, including interest, standing to the credit of the Trustee Banks at 31st December, 1963, was £18.1 millions, an increase of £0.7 million on the previous year's figure.

Sales of Savings Certificates during 1963 amounted to £4.5 millions, and repayments, including interest, to £2.4 millions. At 31st December, 1963, the value of principal remaining invested was £30.2 millions, an increase of £2.1 millions during the year, compared with an increase of £1.4 millions during 1962.

Post offices throughout the country continue to cooperate in the issue of Prize Bonds, and have been responsible for collecting over £10 millions out of the total of £32 millions worth of Prize Bonds issued up to this year.

The Savings Committee is at present more active than ever in its encouragement of the national savings movement, which is so important to our general financial stability, and I am sure that all Deputies will wish to join with me in thanking its members most warmly and sincerely for their valuable work.

REMITTANCE AND AGENCY SERVICES

There is a continuing growth in the volume of funds handled by the Department's remittance services. The total value of money orders and postal orders issued during 1963 was £24.7 millions, an increase of £0.9 million over 1962.

Social Welfare and other agency payments during 1963 totalled £34 millions, an increase of about £3 millions on the preceding year.

BUILDINGS

During 1963 improvements were carried out in the post offices at An Uaimh, Limerick and Mullingar and nine automatic telephone exchange buildings were erected. The new post office at Wicklow has been in use since early this year and a new district sorting office at Finglas has been completed. The new post offices at Ballinasloe and Youghal should be ready later in the year and it is hoped to finish the building work on a new trunk telephone exchange in Dublin. Work is also in progress on improvements to Arklow and Ennis post offices, on a district sorting office to serve the Coolock-Raheny area and on five new automatic exchange buildings.

As regards the new Central Sorting Office for Dublin, work is progressing satisfactorily under the main building contract.

STAFF

The Estimate provides for a total staff of 18,098, an increase of 652 on last year's figure. The increase consists almost entirely of additional engineering workmen required for the present telephone development programme and telephone operating staff to handle the higher volume of traffic offering.

When speaking on the Telephone Capital Bill last December, I outlined some of the steps that were being taken to build up the necessary staff to cope with the expanded rate of development. The intake of technician trainees, which is the main avenue of recruitment for the skilled staff, is being doubled this year.

At the scientific exhibition organised by the Royal Dublin Society last year, the Department displayed to the public various interesting facets of the telecommunications system such as automatic switching, microwave links, submarine cable repeaters, voice frequency telegraphs, teleprinters and fault location. The limited space available to us for a stand was found to be much too small for the numbers who tried to inspect the exhibits and I hope that the avid interest shown by members of the younger generation is a hopeful sign for future recruitment.

As was announced recently, I have set up a Commission to inquire into and report on various aspects of the sub-post office system.

The Department is constantly searching for improvements in organisation and Working methods in order to increase efficiency and reduce costs. Telephone accounts are now being produced by an automatic data processing system based on the use of an electronic computer.

The new system will yield savings which, while initially relatively small, will grow as the number of subscribers increases. The possibilities of utilising similar systems for other large blocks of work in the Department are being explored.

In thanking the staff for the work of the past year, I must make reference to the special telegraph and telephone facilities which were provided for the visit of the late President Kennedy. An extensive network of temporary communications had to be set up and a heavy burden fell on the engineering and operating staffs which they discharged with great efficiency. I am pleased to say that the facilities provided earned very favourable comment from the United States Authorities, from pressmen and from broadcasting organisations.

FINANCIAL POSITION.

A summary of the commercial account results is given in Appendix D of the Estimate. In 1962-3 there was a surplus of slightly under £50,000. If circumstances had remained unchanged we might have expected growth of traffic to produce somewhat higher surpluses for 1963-4 and for the current year, though still extremely modest when viewed in relation to our expenditure of over £13 millions.

The general Civil Service increase in pay, and the status and other claims by Post Office grades have, however, completely altered the position.

I may say that a number of Post Office grades felt that they had fallen behind in pay standards by reference to current rates outside and that the Staff Side put forward a wide range of claims affecting almost all Departmental grades. These claims have been under consideration at the Departmental Conciliation Council. A major one-that on behalf of Post Office clerks—has been dealt with by the Arbitration Board which awarded a very substantial increase on the basis, I must assume of comparison with outside clerical employment. Another major claim, put forward on behalf of subpostmasters, has been settled through conciliation machinery. I consider it just and fair that settlements arrived at through conciliation and arbitration machinery should be implemented in full. The Government are of the same view. And I do not think that there is any Deputy who will dissent from the proposition that Post Office employees should receive a reasonable return for their services.

As many of these claims have not yet been finally resolved it is not possible to make an exact estimate of the ultimate cost. But, in round figures, it can be taken that the net effect of the improved pay for staff and some other unavoidable increases will be a disimprovement in the Department's financial position of some £2½ million a year.

My Department is extremely cost-conscious in regard to the services it provides and has always been energetic in a continuous search for greater efficiency, a process which has been intensified during the past fifteen years by the employment of a separate organisation and methods staff and by the engagement of outside consultants in appropriate cases. Over the years very substantial improvements have been effected. But it is quite certain that the amount now in question cannot be found by improved efficiency, by economies in the services or from increased business.

It has been the settled policy of all Ministers for Posts and Telegraphs that the Post Office should pay its way on a commercial basis. A departure from this policy is certainly not warranted now, and charges for Post Office services must, therefore, be increased substantially.

Faced with the need to raise well over £2 million in excess of the revenue figure shown in the Book of Estimates, I have to look to the basic items of the letter post and the local telephone call. But, in considering what alterations in rates should be made, all parts of the Post Office services have been examined carefully by reference to volume of traffic, their cost to the Department and their value to the public. Indeed I have not hesitated to propose an actual reduction in charges where I was satisfied that circumstances justified that step.

I have already referred to the reductions in telex rentals and call charges which I shall introduce when that service becomes automatic. And in regard to one particular item on the postal side—printed paper, commercial paper, samples and small packets sent abroad by surcharged air mail—the rate for extra weight above the first step will be 6d. for each full ounce instead of 6d. for each half ounce. As the rate for the first ounce is being increased by 1d. only, this means that every packet in this category exceeding 1½ ounces will be cheaper than before. This concession, in so far as it covers small packets, should be of assistance in some areas of our export trade.

The list of changes in rates which I propose to make has already been published but there are more general observations I wish to make about them.

The postal side is heavily affected by wage increases because of its high labour content—about 73 per cent of postal costs are in respect of staff. The sparseness of population in many rural areas means that expenditure on delivery alone in these places is several times more than the amount of postage paid on the correspondence delivered. Furthermore, while traffic generally is growing, the rate of growth is relatively small. Apart from the increase in the basic letter rate, therefore, it is necessary to raise the charges for all classes of correspondence and as they were not increased on the occasion of the last change in letter rate, a somewhat greater proportionate increase is being applied to them. Second class mail, that is, printed papers, newspapers, etc. involves practically the same handling costs as letters and the present rates are definitely uneconomic by reference to existing staff costs.

The use of the telegraph service, apart from Telex, is steadily declining as the need for it diminishes with the growth of the telephone habit. There is no way of making the telegraph service pay. Indeed the greater the traffic, the greater the loss—a fact which was pointed out clearly in the White Paper issued by one of my predecessors in 1955. We have to face a continuing loss on this service and the increases in prospect will only serve to keep the loss within reasonable bounds.

On the telephone side, the increase in the local call fee is necessary if an inordinate increase in trunk call charges is to be avoided. I may mention that, at present traffic levels, some millions of these local calls would have been charged as trunk calls until a few years ago and that, even at the increased rate, they will still be much cheaper than they were then.

There is heavy capital expenditure in installing telephones—it averages about £150 per line. This fully justifies an advance in rentals, which will still be moderate at the new rates, and the introduction of a connection fee such as is charged by almost all other telephone administrations. Very many residential telephone lines do not at present pay their way and the new rates will help to reduce the burden which they impose on other users. Trunk call charges have, in general, been little disturbed; three of the six categories of internal trunk fees are unchanged and the other three are only slightly increased. These small changes which will be made in internal trunk call rates are unavoidable, for technical reasons associated with subscriber trunk dialling, in view of the change in the local call fee.

Allowing for certain reductions in traffic the new rates are estimated to bring in just over £2,300,000 extra revenue in a full year. This will not go the whole way towards maintaining the finances of the Department on a sound basis. Accordingly, proposals for economies in the Post Office services are under consideration though at the moment I am not in a position to make any definite statement about them. The new charges will commence to operate only from later on this year whereas much of the increases in staff costs were retrospective to dates in the last financial year. There is, therefore, no way of avoiding a loss on working for 1963-4 and for 1964-5. With many of the items of expenditure still not exactly defined, any estimate of the financial position for these two years must necessarily be very tentative. Subject to that qualification, I should imagine that the loss on working for 1963-4 and 1964-5 will be of the other of £300,000 for each year.

BROADCASTING AND TELEVISION

As Deputies must now be well aware, I do not intervene in matters concerning radio or television programmes or in the day to day administration of Radio Éireann. Moreover, Radio Éireann's annual report, three of which have already appeared, contain a lot of information on the Authority's activities. My remarks will, therefore, be confined to the more important matters and to those in which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs has a statutory function.

After deducting the costs of licence collection a sum of about £587,000 is being provided for sound broadcasting in 1964-65 and the balance, namely, £813,000 is for the television service. These figures take into account that £1 5s. out of each £5 licence is intended for the sound broadcasting service. The amount being provided for sound broadcasting plus sound advertising revenue will probably not be sufficient to meet the expenditure on that service in 1964-65 in view of pay increases and other higher costs and the deficit will have to be made good out of the Authority's general revenue.

In my Second Reading speech on the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1963, I outlined the progress the Authority had made with its capital programme, compared the expenditure to date with the original estimate and described the purposes for which the additional capital is needed. I am sure that Deputies will not expect me to cover that ground again now. I would, however, like to refer briefly to my announcement on that occasion regarding the decision to provide a VHF service to improve sound broadcasting coverage. The Authority is now making its plans for the improvement of sound broadcasting reception. Its technical officers have been engaged on the preparation of specifications for the VHF installations and tenders will shortly be invited.

It will be of the order of about eighteen months before VHF transmissions will be available. When the VHF transmitters are in full operation, the problem of poor reception over large parts of the country—a problem which has been a matter of concern to my predecessors and myself—will at last have been solved. Until then I would ask listeners from parts of the country where interference from foreign stations is particularly bad to bear with the present unsatisfactory position as best they can. My Department is taking every step open to it to have the interference caused to the Athlone transmissions reduced, but with the increasing crowding of the medium wave bands it is not very hopeful of the outcome of its representations.

In May, 1963, I approved the Authority's proposals to increase the hours for regular television transmissions from 42 to 43 hours approximately per week, with permission to average up to 47 hours per week to allow for extra broadcasts outside the regular schedule. In December, 1963, I agreed to a further extension by two hours per week during the school terms to provide for educational programmes for schools, on condition that the resulting additional costs would be refunded to the Authority.

In the case of sound programmes, I authorised in February last an extension from 11.30 p.m. to 12 midnight on Wednesdays only so that the Authority could broadcast a sponsored programme from 11 p.m. to 12 midnight.

I have had many complaints regarding the interference caused to the reception of programmes by various types of electrical equipment. As the House is aware, all powers appropriate for the investigation and detection of interference with wireless telegraphy receiving apparatus have been conferred upon Radio Éireann.

In September last I announced the appointment of a Committee for a second period of two years to advise me in relation to the making of regulations for controlling undue electrical interference with the working of wireless telegraphy apparatus. Regulations to control undue interference caused by small electric motors came into force on 1st December, 1963. Regulations for the control of interference from ignition apparatus came into force on 1st February, 1964. The Committee is now engaged in studying other prolific sources of interference and how they might best be controlled.

I might, perhaps, mention one source which has come to us with the increase in the number of television receivers. Many viewers now find that when these receivers are in operation their neighbours are experiencing interference with the reception of sound programmes. This is known as "line time base radiation". It has been suggested that steps should be taken to prevent TV sets from interfering with radio reception. It is of course not in the interests of set manufacturers to have one of their products impairing enjoyment from another of their products but a solution has not so far been found even in Britain where the problem has existed for a long time.

When a solution will be found I cannot say but I am advised that listeners can, at times, reduce or eliminate the trouble by altering the position of the radio set in relation to the offending television equipment. As I said last year, the real solution may lie more in the establishing of a code of practice for television set manufacturers rather than in the introduction of statutory regulations.

I am glad to hear that the general public is showing a growing awareness of the need for avoiding the creation of interference with their neighbours' viewing and listening. Perhaps I should again refer to the effect of undue interference on reception of the relatively weak signals of the BBC and UTV. It would be altogether unreasonable to expect that electrical apparatus should be suppressed to such a degree that no interference would be caused to reception from distant television or radio stations because the cost would be prohibitive. Accordingly, the observance of the interference limits which will be prescribed by regulation will not ensure satisfactory reception of foreign programmes.

Deputies will recall that I was anxious that the Authority would maintain a close liaison with the Film Censor. In February last I was informed by the Director General that a practical working arrangement had been concluded whereby the Censor would act as a special consultant to Telefís Éireann outside his official hours. Arrangements had accordingly been put in train just prior to his untimely death. Of course, the responsibility for the content of films shown on television rests with the Authority. It cannot be shared with any other body.

Section 16 (2) (k) of the Broadcasting Authority Act allows the Authority, subject to the consent of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, to compile, publish, distribute, sell and exchange recorded aural and visual material. The Authority has been given permission to sell or exchange occasional copies of material which has been or will be used in its own programmes.

I should like to refer to two groups of experts on broadcasting and television matters which held meetings in Dublin for the first time in February last. The first, with which my Department is directly concerned, was the TTVS group meeting of CEPT—the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunication Administrations. This group was created in Paris in 1960 to consider questions concerning television and sound broadcasting transmissions in so far as they affect telecommunication administrations. The second was a Working Party meeting of representatives of the European Broadcasting Union—a union of broadcasting organisations—which also deals with problems concerning radio and television relays. International broadcasting relays are now very complex and telecommunication administrators have to agree on ways and means of providing circuits for them and the conditions to be attached thereto. When we remember that there are a number of different television systems in use in European countries and that each broadcasting organisation participating in, say, the Eurovision programme of the Winter Olympics needs a commentary in the language of its own country the need for close coordination between these two groups is evident. The Dublin meetings demonstrated that close and friendly contacts do in fact exist between them.

I mentioned last year when introducing the Estimate that the Authority had joined Eurovision on a provisional basis. As yet it has no direct technical link with the Eurovision system but the past year has been quite a rewarding one in so far as Eurovision exchanges were concerned. Of course Telefís Éireann took far more programmes than it contributed to the network. It did, however, make important contributions by making available the main events of the late President Kennedy's visit to Ireland and a telecast of the Irish Derby on 29th June, 1963. It is an interesting fact that the late President's address to the Dáil and Seanad coincided with the passage of one of the experimental communication satellites and was seen and heard throughout the United States as it was taking place in Leinster House.

In conclusion, I feel that the Authority can be congratulated on the many excellent programmes, both sound and television, which were broadcast during the past year. In saying that I do not want to suggest that Deputies will not have points of criticism to make which I am confident the Authority will consider carefully. But to be fairminded we must all realise that it is impossible for the Authority to please all the people all the time.

Before the Minister sits down, would he refer to Page 5 of his statement? Is there a clerical error? He referred to the conveyance of mails and said:

An additional £96,000 was provided mainly to cover payment of accounts originally expected to fall due in 1964-65, and a reduction in the provision for this year has ensued.

That money was paid last year. There is no clerical error.

I have tried to construe the sentence three times.

It took me 15 minutes to work it out for myself without consultation.

Motion No. 4 in the names of Deputy Sweetman and Deputy Crotty is being taken in conjunction with Vote No. 43.

I move.

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

Taking the Post Office services in general, there is no great complaint. I feel everyone will agree a reasonable service is being provided. Congratulations are due to the Department's officials, and to other officials, for their personal interest in their work, and their efficiency. I think a special word of thanks is due for the way in which they handled the visit of the late President Kennedy and the fine services they gave at that time. They were under very heavy pressure during the whole period of the visit.

The officials have been promised substantial pay increases which are long overdue to meet the very high cost of living which has obtained over the past few years. I understand that the postmasters have not been dealt with. They are very responsible men and their case should be dealt with at the same time as the case of the other officials.

Is it the subpost-masters?

No, the ordinary postmasters. There has been a steep increase in the general cost of living also and they require an increase in pay just the same as any other officials.

The principal reason for my moving that this Vote be referred back for reconsideration is the present state of the telephone service. The Minister mentioned that there has been development over the past year. We appreciate that there has been development but it is very slow. The same pattern continues. People in industry, business and agriculture, apply for the service and are told they cannot be connected up for a considerable time. When they fail in that direct approach to the Minister, they usually apply to the local Deputy, and the reply he gets is the same. Last year the Minister said more money was being invested in the telephone service, and this year he says that £6 million has been allocated to that service.

The fact is that due to normal, modern development in industry and agriculture, there is much more demand for immediate service than there was in years gone by. We expect—and have expected over the years—that the Minister would plan ahead to meet that demand. Let us take the motorcar industry. Some years ago there was very limited demand for motorcars, but in the past few years that demand has exceeded all expectation and the industry was geared to meet it. I am sure if any person wants to purchase a car or a lorry, he will not meet any trouble in securing what he wants.

The ESB is another good example. It is much better really because it is run by a semi-State body. The ESB plan years ahead. They do not wait until they get in so many applications. They plan ahead. They have more planning to do than the Minister because they have to plan ahead for the production of the power as well as for making connections in the various parts of the country. Provided a person is prepared to pay, they are always able to connect him. Those industries set a good headline for the Minister to follow in planning ahead for what is now a natural development.

The real cause of the delay in the development of the telephone service is that the Government feel they have a monopoly, and that the public can just wait until it suits the Minister and the Government to provide a full and efficient service. If it were a private enterprise service or if it were handled by a semi-State body as the sugar industry or the electricity industry, I have no doubt that that body would provide for the requirements of the people.

The telephone is one branch of the Department which is paying its way and servicing its capital requirements. Consider the surplus in the telephone account. For 1962-63, it was £346,734 and over the past few years, that surplus is roughly made up to £2 million. The surplus in 1962-63 was more than sufficient to meet the deficit on both postal and telegraph services and to leave a balance of £46,608.

In former years, the Minister made the excuse that there was a long delay in getting the necessary equipment from overseas. I am sure we shall hear the same excuse when he comes to reply to this debate. In his opening statement, he mentioned that a shortage of skilled staff was one of the factors which prevented him from extending the service. The ESB have the same difficulties as the Minister in getting skilled staff. They have surmounted them and therefore that should not involve any great hardship. I am sure the old excuse, too, will be trotted out that we did not plan when we were in office. Times have changed considerably over the last number of years. The Minister mentioned that he hopes to have the circuits completed. I should like more definite information on that point.

The greatest shock in the Budget speech of the Minister for Finance was his announcement that he was deducting £2 million from the deficit in anticipation of higher charges which the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs would announce. He said it will be necessary to meet the additional cost of the Post Office services arising from the ninth round and other pay increases. Further on in his statement the Minister for Finance said that appropriate Orders will be made at an early date and that the details of the increased charges will then be given by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Apparently the Minister was to introduce these increased charges at a later date but due to criticism of the suggestion about the deduction of the £2 million in anticipation of the increased charges the Minister was ordered to issue the list of increased charges before midnight. These charges also shocked the public. I wonder if the Minister and his officials were panicked by the Taoiseach into introducing these extra charges without giving them due consideration?

These extra charges are intended to cover the ninth round of wage increases for the Post Office officials. Negotiations for this ninth round started as far back as last December, or before that, between the Congress of Trade Unions and the Federated Union of Employers. The Taoiseach then promised that whatever the results of these negotiations, the fruits and benefits of them would be passed on to all the staff in the Civil Service. Was that not the time to investigate and to go into the general running costs of the services?

Replying to the debate on the Supplementary Estimate, the Minister stated that if the people wanted services, they would have to pay for them. Nobody can disagree with that statement. However, the Post Office is different from other Departments in that it is partly a commercial undertaking providing sales and services. Has the Minister invited in any efficiency experts to advise on how to obtain a more efficient service at a reduced cost or is it a case of piling on the cost?

The Minister said he brought experts into some parts of the services but I do not think that was very comprehensive. If it was, it must not have had the desired effect. Industry in general has been invited, and assisted by Government grant of up to 50 per cent of the cost, to bring in these experts to increase productivity. There is no reason why a large percentage of the recent increases in salaries and wages could not be absorbed by improved methods and general layout in the different post offices and other branches of the service.

At column 1537 of the Official Report, the Minister for Finance stated that a steep rise in productivity is needed to offset the higher wages and salaries and to keep costs in industry and services from rising significantly. The Taoiseach later said, as reported at column 1781 of Volume 208 of the Official Report:

There is, I agree, an obligation on the Government to ensure that the cost of these services is not unduly inflated and the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is now about to initiate a drive for economies in the Post Office by the adjustment of the services to the reasonable needs of the people and by changes in procedures which will, it is hoped, increase individual productivity.

It is very strange that the Taoiseach says that these economies are to be made now. He states that fact when the actual increases are practically announced. After all, he stated also in his speech that every alternative should be used to rising costs and rising prices. If only they had followed that example in their own Department.

The Department of Posts and Telegraphs is a quasi-commercial Department. If they had acted on those lines, they should be ready to absorb some of the extra costs. They should not have to wait for the Taoiseach to suggest that economies could be made when in fact the actual increases have taken place. Of course, these officials are entitled to the increases but the responsibility is on the Minister to see that as far as possible these increases will be absorbed in greater efficiency. The Minister failed dismally in his duty in that regard.

Instead of looking into the matter years ago, the Minister is now at the behest of the Taoiseach about to initiate a drive for economy. The Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach can advise everybody down the country — businessmen, industrialists, and everyone else—as to the way in which they should operate; how they should reduce costs and increase productivity. Here, on his own doorstep, practically nothing has been done. The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs states now, when the costs have to be met, that he is only about to initiate these economies. I feel that the imposition of these charges was a rushed affair. I feel that due consideration was not given to the probable effect of these extraordinary increases on the ordinary citizen, and, secondly, on industry. The extent of these increases shows the regard the Government have for the people of the country. Like other things, they hope the people will forget about them in a few months. I can assure the Minister and the Government that it will have a very bad effect.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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