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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 May 1964

Vol. 209 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 11—General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.—(Minister for Finance.)

When progress was reported, I was pointing out the hardships inflicted on the people of the west as a result of heavy taxation imposed on them in the last five or six months leading up to the taxes imposed on petrol, beer and tobacco. If something is not done in the near future to provide some employment and some way of meeting this heavy taxation on the people in the west in general I can assure the Government that homes will continue to close.

To give some idea of what our people suffer I shall make a comparison between the whole of Connacht and County Cork and County Limerick. In 1960, the whole of Connacht produced only 12,900,000 gallons of milk while Cork county produced over 70,000,000 gallons and Limerick over 60,000,000 gallons. I want to emphasise the small income derived from farms in the west as against those in the good counties I have mentioned and in counties I have not mentioned. Our people are expected to pay the same rate of taxation, turnover tax, Budget taxes and the ninth round as those in counties where they are making profits from the land and where there are great industries in the cities and towns. We in Sligo-Leitrim are unable to get any industry.

If I put down a question next week as I have done in the past the answer I shall get from the Minister is that: "If you people show that a certain substantial sum of money will be forthcoming, then the Government will come to the rescue." That is how the question has been answered for the past three years since I came here and if I continue to ask I suppose it will be answered in the same way. That is very unfair to the people of the west who have to undergo such hardship in order to eke out a living in their small uneconomic holdings where they have survived for generations.

Taxation is rising steadily. Every week something increases with the result that every week homes are being closed up and every time a home is closed it is a loss to the community in general. Fortunately, cattle prices were good this year. Otherwise we should have had something like a rebellion but the little extra income from cattle saved the situation. There is no guarantee that will continue very long.

While taxation becomes heavier every week the reconstruction grants for housing have not been increased for the last six or seven years. The Government should take note of that and come to the aid of people determined to provide better houses for themselves. Under present circumstances the two-thirds grant allocated for the three, four or five-bedroom house is not in keeping with the cost of the work. Labour has gone up; the cost of material has gone up but the reconstruction grants remain the same. As a result, what often happens after people have met the heavy expense of doing the job, particularly in the case of a new house, is that very soon an official comes along who is likely to put an increased value of £5 on a man's house and that means an extra charge of about £15. If it was a three-roomed house he would only get £100 and these grants would need to be greatly increased because otherwise the owner would have the £100 paid back in a very short time at the new rate of taxation. He will be all right for the first two years but after that comes the review of the valuation which will be considerably increased.

The farmers are told that an extra £5 million is to go into their pockets indirectly but when that is examined, the farmers cannot claim they will benefit to that extent, because, as a result of the tuberculosis scheme and the cattle collected from them, the Government have seized about £1½ million which means that only £3.5 million goes back to the farmers. Such an increase to the farmers is very small today. When we think of the millions of pounds spent on huge road schemes, on hotels, on advertisements urging people to come here for a great time, and at the same time consider how we are cutting it so fine with the people who really count, we realise that something should be done about it.

Another thing which has annoyed people is the invitation to tourists to come here for a holiday and obtain their petrol at the old price, while the unfortunate farmer or the townsman has to pay the increased price. That is a shame. The people who come here come with plenty of money but the local man may have very little money in his pocket and may have to get his petrol on credit. Everybody should have to pay the same price for petrol. We should always remember that we are still sending out more people than we are bringing in and whatever we may lose by not encouraging tourists, certainly we will lose more through our people emigrating.

The question of the housing grant should be very carefully considered by the Government because the grant is entirely inadequate in relation to present day costs for even the minimum reconstruction work. If we want to encourage young people to remain in the country, we should not always be saying to them that they should not go, that there are decent grants for them and that they are the people who can do the job. In the past, cottages and homes were provided for these people; a key was given to them and they were charged a fairly substantial rent. That is not happening today. I have been a member of a local authority for 14 or 15 years and I do not think one house has been built in that time. Three or four have been built in Sligo. That policy is wrong. Every week I am approached, particularly in Sligo town, which is a centre of 12,000 to 14,000 people, by young married people who want to know when they will get a house because at present they are living with in-laws, and the comforts of home life are not available to them because we all know what can happen when in-laws are involved.

This Budget has now been discussed in this House for three weeks and there has been an exhaustive discussion of the economy of the country during that period. I must confess that having re-read the few remarks which I made immediately after the Budget was introduced. I now find I have nothing whatever to change in them. I felt then and I feel now, everything that has been said and everything I have read in the interval has confirmed my belief—and it was one of the things which the Minister acknowledged— that we are suffering from an inflation but an inflation of the Minister's creation, one which he himself touched off 12 months ago. We said 12 months ago that it was bound to happen and it is no pleasure to us that we have been proved right to-day, that it has happened and that the dangers it has brought with it are ever-present and constitute a menace. Naturally everybody likes to be able to say that he was correct but in this case it gives no one pleasure to be able to say he was correct because that very correctness has raised fundamental considerations in relation to our whole national objectives and national progress.

Before I go on to consider in detail the matters that arise from this Budget I want to say categorically that certain people, and the Minister for Industry and Commerce in particular, who seemed to think that we on these benches, particularly Deputy John A. Costello and I were speaking of different things, were entirely wrong. It was the inadequacy of the Minister's ability to absorb the existence of the present trends that was really bothering him. As I say it is clear that this Budget was introduced at a time when the Minister for Finance accepted the view which we had expressed for many months beforehand, that there was an inflationary situation here which had been touched off by him. The Minister believes the measures he has introduced are going to put a slight brake on consumption. Far from doing that—and this is where I agree with Deputy Costello—I think the Budget will have the reverse effect and that far from preventing further inflation, the entire fiscal and financial policy of the Government is adding fuel to the flames.

It is of course utterly impossible to judge the total picture without the information that is available only to the Minister for Finance and to those to whom he gives his entire confidence. In relation, for example, to the method of financing this Budget and the method of utilising revenue funds, there are two influencing factors. You can have the deliberate extraction of funds from the revenue accounts into the Exchequer accounts, the running down of the open balances in the revenue accounts, as the Minister did last year. He ran down a balance, as far as my recollection goes, of some £2,018,000 to £45,000 this year. He did that under the announced provisions of the Budget of 1963. But there is another method, too, by which one can influence the flow of revenue, that is, in the actual collection of the revenue.

I must confess that when I saw the figures for revenue buoyancy this year estimated for 1964-65, notwithstanding the inflation which he believed to be present and notwithstanding the continued injection of capital into the revenue, that buoyancy, certainly to some extent, could be explained by a carryover on the second or what I might call the hidden methods of influencing revenue from one year into another. As I say, I am not prepared to make any categorical statement in that respect. Only the Minister, who knows the instructions that have been given to the revenue people, can tell whether that is so or not but I must confess that, in company with other people, of whom many were economists, I was surprised at the buoyancy figure that was taken into account. One explanation of that figure could be what I have stated. I cannot tell whether it is so or not because the secret, so far as the members of this House are concerned, is confined to the Minister for Finance and those in whom he has confided.

It was in that light, confident that we were in a situation in which there was real danger of an inflationary spiral and, therefore, a danger to our exports and a danger to our imports, that I examined these proposals put by the Minister before the House. Again let me say in passing that one of the statements made by the Minister in the capital Budget presented by him has made it clear that it is more than ever necessary that we should have a separate discussion on capital Budget proposals as against current proposals. In presenting the capital Budget of 1964, the Minister, at paragraph 4, said it was necessary to review from time to time the items in the public capital expenditure to make sure that they were genuinely of a capital nature, that is, expenditure which does not produce assets of a lasting benefit is not being treated as capital. The Minister went on in the subsequent two paragraphs to make it clear that he believed that at the present time it was essential we should have a review of our capital expenditure from the point of view of the basis upon which it was to be paid for.

I realise one of the things that has been done in that respect is that some £12 million of capital expenditure is included this year which was not included as capital expenditure in 1956-57. There are some elements of the 1956-57 programme of capital expenditure which have ceased to be expendable and, therefore, have ceased to be in the capital programme but there are items covering about that figure in the past year for which I have information which were not treated as capital items in 1956-57 but which are so treated now. Some of those items in 1964-65 will be less; some will be more.

As regards some of them, I would be in entire agreement that they should be treated as capital items and I am not putting the matter any further at this moment than to say that the existence of these two paragraphs in the introduction to the capital Budget of this year makes it clear beyond question that it is vital, if this House—and the public, because the public gets its information largely from the debates in this House—is to have not even control but adequate consideration of the facets of our economy involving such enormous capital expenditure as is being paid at present, that we have discussion away and apart from the current Budget.

The Minister himself went so far as to underline the point I am making by putting the words "method of financing" in paragraph 5 in italics. However, it was the Minister and no one else who deliberately changed the procedure in this respect which I had announced in 1956 for the provision in years to come of precisely that capital examination by this House.

Let me say in passing that I can see no open declarations in this Budget of any such examination having been effected by the Minister for Finance. I can see no evidence anywhere that the Minister did more than pay lip service to the principles he has enunciated. I can see no evidence anywhere that he practised what he preached. In fact the open statements in the various papers that are published imply exactly the reverse.

It may be, of course, the Minister has in a hidden way taken some account of his real estimate of revenue and receipts that he has in his mind, or the real estimate for errors of estimation that he has in his mind. If that is so, it would be far better, far cleaner and far more appropriate to the needs of the country that he should have disclosed these rather than that he should have hidden them in that way. If the Minister disclaims he has made any hidden reserves, if he disclaims he has made any allowance in errors of estimation for more than is projectable on a current basis, then all I can say is that by his very disclaimer, he will be making a liar of himself in relation to the capital Budget preface introduced by him, and he will be failing also to follow the advice emanating primarily from his own Department and publicised in the publication by OECD in the past couple of months.

However, nobody can make any definite statement in that regard without having the Minister's confidence and he and he alone knows in which way the hidden figures have been influenced in that regard. It would be better if he had not influenced them in a hidden fashion and if he had come fairly and squarely to the House and put the facts on record. As I say, if he disclaims that he has not told the House the complete truth, he is making lies of the paragraphs he has submitted in the preface to the capital Budget.

The Taoiseach, when he came in to defend the Budget on the first morning, was most emphatic as usual. In fact, I think I would not be offensive if I said he was even more brazen than usual. One of the things I heard him say at the time which I was satisfied was untrue, but for which I then could not find proof, was as stated on 15th April, 1964, reported at column 1770:

Taxation represents a smaller proportion of our national income than it does in other countries.

It is difficult if one is not completely skilled to analyse what the taxation figures in other countries are, compared with what they are in one's own country when obviously one knows one's own basis and cannot possibly know so fully the basis of another country. I feel, however, that the House and the country would accept that a more accurate, factual comparison of this figure is available in another source. I am not asking anybody to believe the opinion of the Taoiseach against the opinion of anyone else, but a factual statement was made by him that taxation represents a smaller proportion of our national income than it does in other countries. I ask Deputies and the Minister for Finance to compare that with this quotation—I will give the source of the quotation in a moment:

From such data as are available it appears that central government revenue in proportion to national income in Ireland is high in comparison with other countries in which income per head is in the medium range.

The two statements cannot be correct. Surely the Taoiseach was not trying to compare Ireland and the Balubas on the one range, or perhaps with the extreme wealth of the United States of America on the other, though I have grave doubts even there whether the comparison would be true. But, like to like would be a country, as we are, in the medium range, perhaps slightly at the lower edge of that medium range. It is accepted by everyone that the lower your wealth, the less the proportion of national income which should be taken for central government expenditure. Unfortunately, it is to some extent asserted that the less developed you are, the more you want to expend on development. But equally, the less developed you are, the less you can afford to have taken from national income for central government expenditure.

As I say we have the Taoiseach's opinion on the one hand, and another opinion on the other, not of desirabilities but of analyses of facts. Personally, I prefer the quotation which I have just read, from Page 27 of the Report of the Central Bank for 1962-63 as being accurate. That is for 1962 but all of us doubt somewhat that in 1963 the proportion went up. In fact, as regards national income, total taxation, as a percentage of national income, in 1962, when the Central Bank was writing about that, compared with other countries, was 27.1 per cent, and in 1963, it went up to 28.8 per cent, an increase of 1.7 per cent. I venture to say without any shadow of doubt that the effect of this Budget will be that the proportion of national income taken in total taxation in Ireland will this year exceed the 30 per cent mark. Economists for a long time have said that once the percentage of national income taken exceeds 25 per cent, a country is running near the danger level, but this year it will be over 30 per cent.

I know of course that in issuing comparisons the Government love to avoid any comparison of total taxation with national income. They switched to gross national product because the percentage looks smaller. They did that quite deliberately. I think that not merely the Fine Gael Party, of whom he is a member, but the country, owes a very considerable debt to Senator Dooge for the manner in which he, in the Seanad a couple of months ago, described that switch as a deliberate codding of the people into a lower percentage for the purposes of hiding what had been highlighted by the Central Bank in their report last year. Incidentally, in relation to Senator Dooge's speech, may I say I thought it was one of the best speeches delivered in this Oireachtas since it was elected in 1961. I agree with Senator Dooge that it is unfortunate that the Minister has not introduced a detailed programme for economic expansion so that we could discuss in the Budget debate in a fuller way the proposals of the Government towards that expansion.

The significant thing in relation to the outcome of the First Programme for Economic Expansion, when one is comparing the outcome of that programme with the second, is the fact that during that period we carried through something that was not at all anticipated and not at all projected. It was made clear in the First Programme for Economic Expansion, and in its foundation Economic Development, that our hopes were bound to be based mostly on the release, in the current jargon, of a dynamic agriculture. In fact, it became obvious that the basis of agricultural expansion, upon which the programme was built—the increase by 1964, as the main objective of policy, of cow numbers to at least 1,500,000 — failed completely. The defence of the Government, of course, and the Minister for Agriculture, particularly, in that respect is that the failure there was due to the scheme for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. Of course, everyone knew, and the Government knew, when in November, 1958, they were releasing the First Programme for Economic Expansion, we were going to have that scheme for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis with the inevitable killings which would be involved. They were different types of killings from the killing of the calves of which the Minister for Finance was the chief exponent as a method of economic policy.

We knew then, and the Government knew then, that the scheme for the eradication of bovine tuberculosis was bound to have some effects on our cow numbers. Yet they committed themselves, on Page 15, to the statement that "the objective of the policy will be to increase cow numbers progressively to at least 1,500,000 by 1964". Of course they failed. The First Programme for Economic Expansion was significant in that it was not carried out. It is significant that the result of these years is the result of an entirely different programme which was announced in November, 1958. It is very much because of that that I would prefer to await, before discussing the Second Programme, the publication of the detailed analysis which we have been promised.

I think I am not wronging the Minister in saying that it was to come first in February, then it was to come in May and now it is to come in July, at a time when, the Minister hopes, the House will have risen. That is unfortunate because, as I say, it is difficult to discuss the outline in the Blue Book as I personally would like to discuss it in the House until such time as one has first seen a more detailed explanation, in view of the fact that the whole basis of the Blue Book seems to be that because the growth target in the First Programme was exceeded, therefore, the targets we are putting up in the Second Programme are bound to be realistic and bound to be exceeded also.

Of course, that is nonsense, for two reasons. It is nonsense, first of all, because the growth target put up in the First Programme was not exceeded as a result of that programme but as a result of an entirely different programme and, in the second case, because, unfortunately, we are a very small country indeed, considered economically, and it may well be that the external factors for growth in the years ahead will be radically different from what they are at the present time and from what they have been for the past five years. I shall not go into any prognostication of what may happen or what may not happen in the nextdoor island after the general election there in the autumn of this year. It would be impertinent for us here to offer any comment on the outcome of their election or the way in which that election may run but it is an undoubted fact that our whole growth will be influenced vitally, up or down, by the manner in which the British economy moves and the fact that they have been deliberately scraping the bottom of the barrel—naturally enough—for the purpose of endeavouring in so far as they possibly could to get in the last couple of years the optimum results, was bound to have an effect on our economy here and bound to mean that we had conditions here favourable for exports in a way in which, to put it mildly, we cannot guarantee after the next six months.

Be that as it may on one aspect, I want to suggest that there is another aspect which is even more likely to give cause for anxiety in the immediate future, that is, the estimate that is made and given to us now officially by a non-political body that in 1964, compared with 1963, total manufacturing exports will rise by only two per cent. The prognostication of a rise of two per cent only for total manufactures in this year must be causing the Minister for Finance extreme anxiety. It is certainly something in respect of which all of us had hoped we could expect in this year a very much greater increase.

We must view that increase in manufacturing exports in the light of the balance of payments deficit for last year and in the light of the deficit for the first three months of this year, announced in the fourth month, and we must bear in mind that when that balance of payments deficit in these three months increased by £5½ millions, it did so at a time when our livestock exports were, I think, bigger than they ever were in those three months of the year and that the very large figure for domestic exports for the first quarter of this year is largely the result of livestock exports. If, when livestock exports, as they are bound to, taper out and come back to normal as a result of that excessively high increase in the first quarter, we will get only a two per cent increase in manufacturing exports, then I am afraid we will find a very difficult situation in relation to our external trading position.

What has that external trading position been up to now? It has been, as the Minister knows, that last year we had a deficit on our current account which of itself was not of appalling proportions—even that deficit of £22 million coming after the deficit of £13 million the year before —but, if we take the first quarter of this year in conjunction with the fact that cattle exports took up such a large part of such domestic exports and if we take with it the forecast of the Economic Institute that manufacturing exports will rise by only two per cent this year, then I wonder where we will travel in relation to our balance of payments.

I know that the Minister has indicated in these documents that he expects a further deficit this year, a larger deficit, but I wonder is he prepared to say that a deficit of the size that these three things envisage is one that we can swallow satisfactorily —a deficit of £22 million last year, starting as our base; an increase of £5½ million in that deficit in the first quarter, which would be an increase of £22 million for the year; and the forecast of a rise of only two per cent in manufacturing exports by the Economic Research Institute?

These are figures that must give considerable cause for concern to anyone and when we take them into account with the quotation from the Central Bank that I have just given of the proportion of our national income that is being taken in taxation, then they become even more significant. This balance of payments deficit, has, of course, been met entirely by capital inflow. The figure of other capital transactions which can only be broken down by the Minister and cannot be obtained by anyone else is a figure the significance of which requires considerable attention.

The Central Statistics Office know part of that break-down. Part is a residual figure which they cannot provide at all, and the part they know they cannot publish because to do so would involve perhaps tearing aside the secrecy of individuals concerned. The Minister knows it and though I am not asking him to break that secrecy, I do ask him categorically whether he is satisfied beyond question that the £24 million for "other capital transactions" is a safe basis on which to build a current deficit of the same size.

My own view is that it is not and I am reinforced in that view by the almost daily take-overs I see in the newspapers, of foreign capital coming in and being utilised for the purpose of meeting balance of payments current deficit without bringing in its train the increase in manufacturing potential we should all wish to see. I have already referred to the manner in which the Government have deliberately changed the percentage of taxation about which they speak from one of national income to one of gross national product. They have done that because they feel there is cause for anxiety about the advance of public expenditure and public indebtedness at the present time and because they want, from their point of view— naturally, so does everybody—to influence public opinion to believe that the size of the bill being taken is not excessive.

I do not always agree completely with the views expressed by the Central Bank. It is their task to accentuate one point of view, but on the other hand no one can read the report of the Central Bank which, I presume, is the unanimous opinion of the directors of that body, without feeling a distinct sense of anxiety. The manner in which they have commented on national expenditure taken as a picture of our wealth is one that would repay considerable research on that aspect.

Immediately after the Minister had finished his Budget statement, I said, and I repeat now, that one of the things that appals me in relation to national expenditure is not its absolute figure but the fact it does not take into account what heavy increases we must have if we are really to progress. The whole additional amount of tax revenue that is to come in this year, and the manner in which it increased last year over and above other years, is to a large extent being frittered away without allowing for the things that really matter.

I know, for example, that the Book of Estimates includes an additional sum for education, but the additional sum for education, as I said when speaking on the Budget on 14th April, is merely to bring up the salaries of the teachers, through the ninth round, to some semblance of equality with those in other walks of life. It does not include the heavy expenditure necessary if we are to accept that education is one of the matters on which we must build our resources if we are to move ahead productively.

In the present age, the unskilled man does not lead in the building up of national productivity or national produce. It is the skilled man who does it all. There are different grades of skill. Yet there is nothing in this Budget for the extension that is necessary to increase skills—the comprehensive schools programme that has been promised by the Minister for Education, much wider technical education, much more extensive secondary education. These are not in the Book of Estimates. There is no provision made for them to anything like an adequate degree. We see nothing in the Book of Estimates designed to take up the slack that should be taken up. It is being frittered away by the Minister in the policy he has been adopting.

In Sweden, Government expenditure on research is something between one per cent and one-and-a-half per cent of gross national product. Our Government expenditure on research is not anything like the same percentage. Is that not another thing which should be there available to be pushed into the slack the Minister should have had through buoyancy of revenue? Do we not all agree on both sides, though we may differ about the means of achievement, that it is vital we should have improvement in our health services?

The increased amount in the Book of Estimates for Health services is purely an increase arising from increased costs in other respects and does not visualise in any way the radical change in our health services which we must have if we are to improve materially as well as humanly. It is not because of the growth in the volume of expenditure that people have become anxious: it is because it has been growing without our getting anything worthwhile for it.

To go back to what I was saying a few minutes ago, do any of us doubt that, for example, the most dynamic force in the world to-day is research? Do we see any evidence of acknowledgement by the Government that it is only through recognition of that dynamic force that we shall see real progress in improving the standards of our people? It is to hide the fact that public expenditure has taken this race, this gallop, without getting any really worthwhile results, that we have had the change in statistics of which the Government speak from taxation as a ratio of national income to a ratio of gross national product and failing, in so doing, to apply the percentage correctives from one to the other.

The Taoiseach tried to suggest that in a criticism of capital expenditure I was suggesting that we in this Party did not want capital expenditure. I said again and again that we based our policy on having as high a programme of productive capital expenditure as the people were prepared to support. What surprises me in relation to it is not its size but the manner in which, again, it has failed to take into account the things necessary towards that production and the manner in which, I fear, political decisions have been allowed to sway what should be economic decisions.

I am not suggesting that a cut back in the housing programme is a thing that should be done on an economic basis as apart from a political basis. Social investment is, and was, urgently necessary if we are to keep our people at home. It is of little use being able to increase the standard of living per capita of the people if it is being increased for those who are here because more are going out. One of the ways in which it is possible to provide an antidote to that drain is by the provision of proper housing facilities for our people.

When I heard the untrue speech Deputy Noel Lemass has made each year on the Budget for the last five years, I looked up the exact figures in relation to Dublin Corporation housing. They show that in 1955-56 Dublin Corporation expended £2,778,833 on their housing programme, and in 1956-57, they spent £2,689,259. The best they were able to do since was in 1963 when they were forced to by public opinion after an unfortunate incident in this city. In that year, they spent £2,263,000. The volume of small dwellings loans has never risen above £1 million, except in 1961 when it was £1,115,000, although in 1955 and 1956 it had been £1,800,000 and £1,500,000 respectively. Yet one sees figures quoted by people who ought to take the trouble of checking their accuracy, since they are members of the Corporation themselves, implying exactly the contrary.

Let us consider also the figures for Cork Corporation, of which, I am sure, Deputy Anthony Barry behind me is fully aware. In 1963 and 1964 their expenditure on the housing of the working classes was £402,000 and £403,000 respectively. They were told by us in 1956 that they could get all they could spend, and they did get £697,000 in 1955, £726,000 in 1956 and £741,000 in 1957. It might be understandable if expenditure on State borrowing had galloped ahead to catch up with a backlog of houses to be built. In fact, as these figures show, far from catching up, the effect has been to go backwards. Indeed, in the rest of the country it has gone backwards to an even greater extent.

What of employment during the five years 1958 to 1963—the five years which the Minister and the Government say are the Mecca to which we are all looking as the result of the programme he introduced? In their own Pink Book, they admit that in that period there was a reduction of 16,000 people at work. If one goes back to the previous two years, the reduction is of a very much higher nature. The total labour force in 1958 was 1,141,000 people, in 1957 it was 1,162,000 and in 1963, it went down to 1,113,000. Yet we were promised, in no less a place than Clery's Restaurant, 100,000 new jobs—20,000 a year. All that was necessary for them was that Deputy Lemass should walk from here to the benches over there.

He has been on those benches for seven years now. That means that on the basis of the untrue statements he made then, there should be an additional 140,000 people at work. Instead, we have had a reduction from 1957 of 50,000 people in the number at work. I am sure Deputy O'Connor went from his constituency of South Kerry to Listowel to hear Deputy Lemass at that time repeat that promise. I wonder how the number of people at work in North Kerry and in South Kerry compare today. I will bet the Deputy that the number of people at work in his constituency is considerably down from that day to now. It is easy to get it from the Statistical Abstract. We will have another opportunity on the Finance Bill of paying that debt, though not, let us hope, in imported spirits.

Another matter in respect of which the Minister seems to be going backwards is the cost of government. Again, I do not mean the absolute cost. I mean the building up of a more massive machine of Government administration than we have ever had before.

I have some sympathy with the Minister in this regard: he came in here in 1957 and announced, as one of the great reforms to be initiated by Fianna Fáil, that he would ensure that not merely would the growth of the Civil Service be stopped but the numbers would be brought down to a realistic level. Far from that happening, the numbers have, of course, gone up considerably since then. I wonder how many of us and how many of the public realise that in the past two years alone, since 1962 to the present day, there has been a quite fantastic growth in the Civil Service machine.

The Government have so fallen down on their promise in 1957 to reduce the administrative machine that in the last two years alone there has been an increase of 1,825 in civil service personnel. The growth of the administrative machine is such that we cannot hope to avoid, in the inflationary position created by the Minister, paying a very substantial amount more than we did before for these civil servants. If the Minister would like the reference for these figures, he will find them in the answer given to Question No. 79 on 8th April last. The number of permanent civil servants is set out as 21,558 and the number of temporary civil servants is given as 9,529. The Minister can compare those figures with the figure of 20,162 permanent civil servants and 9,200 temporaries on 6th March, 1963. I think he will find my addition correct, though I am not always prepared myself to verify its accuracy. I have not taken account in these figures of those civil servants transferred to State-sponsored bodies. Neither have I taken account of the manner in which the index was Fianna Fáil-wise changed some years ago, with the result that certain categories previously included were deliberately dropped out for political and comparison purposes.

Again, in relation to its effect on business and the economy flowing therefrom, the Budget does not measure up to expectations. We shall have another opportunity of discussing in greater detail the very large impost placed on the business community by reason of the increased letter, telegram and telephone charges. I shall make no comment in regard to telegram charges, heavy though they are, because I understand the difficulty for the responsible Minister in that the more telegrams that are sent the greater is the loss incurred and the Minister is, therefore, anxious to reduce the volume rather than deal with telegrams on an ordinary profit and loss basis.

Neither do I quarrel with the statement of the Minister in the Budget that it has been the practice for the Post Office to pay its way as a commercial proposition. But there is more to it than that. In the past three months, the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance, other Ministers on those benches, and even Parliamentary Secretaries, have taken every opportunity to impress on business concerns that they must do their utmost to absorb increased costs arising largely because of the ninth round. When we remember the Government's assertions in that regard and their advocacy in pleading to the business community, and when we compare that with what they have themselves done in relation to the Post Office, we are entitled to conclude that they are being utterly hypocritical.

The Taoiseach gave away a great deal of the game the day after the Budget when, speaking here in reference to the increased charges, he said at column 1781 of volume 208 of the Official Report:

The Minister for Posts and Telegraphs is now about to initiate a drive for economies in the Post Office by adjustments of the services to the reasonable needs of the people and changes in procedures which, it is hoped, will increase individual productivity.

That is all that was said about it the day after the introduction of the Budget. If the Government were awake and not living in Cloud-Cuckoo-Land, they should have known from last December that there would be a substantial ninth round increase. If the Government had been awake to their responsibilities, and if the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs was functioning as the Head of a Department should function, then he would have initiated the necessary steps at the appropriate time. Businessmen throughout the country initiated these steps. If the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs failed in his duty to do that, then the Minister for Finance, who was at that time, I am sure, discussing the likely cost of various Departments, including the Post Office, should have reminded him of his duty and not waited for him to be about to initiate a campaign on 15th April, as promised by the Taoiseach. This is just another indication of the incompetence of the Government in dealing with Government affairs in contradistinction to the advice and pontificating to which they so frequently treat the business community.

In relation to incentives for further productivity, what can we say about this Budget? I can see nothing in it that will help towards increased production. I agree with the Minister that in imposing taxation indirectly rather than directly he is not putting a further bar to or brake on incentive. That does not mean that I accept his indirect impositions. I agree that indirect taxation, so long as it is not on the necessaries of life, is better than direct taxation—I say categorically "so long as it is not on the necessaries of life". It was because of the regressive effect of the turnover tax in general, its imposition on the necessaries of life, that I was particularly opposed to the impost which the Minister put on last year, thereby touching off the inflationary spiral.

As I said earlier in relation to education, there must be an increase in skills through education. There must be increased incentives for management as well. One could have hoped, and expected, that there would have been something in this Budget to ensure that we would be able to get the possible top executives, top management people, to ensure the greatest possible development of our economy. What inducement is there for them to come back here if they are Irishmen? Not much; because the tax which a top executive will pay in Ireland is considerably greater than the tax he will pay in the United Kingdom, or in the United States of America, money for money and the salary being the same. That is not much inducement to those who are the best that money can buy, and we want the best that money can buy if we are to succeed in the international race.

Nor is it much inducement for companies to find for the second year—a small minority, agreed—that the Minister is going back to 1st January for retrospective corporation profits tax in respect of unlimited companies. Nor is it much inducement or incentive on the direct side for the small businessman who will now have to bear increased postage charges, increased telephone costs, increased cost of collection of the turnover tax, without any relaxation whatever in his direct taxation allowance.

For many years people have been wondering why the married allowance of £394 for income tax purposes was not double the single allowance. I cannot understand why the Minister does not accept that it costs twice as much for two people to live as it does for one. If the Minister could not have gone far enough, for revenue reasons, to meet that claim, at least he might have gone some part of the way to show that he was prepared, at any rate, to travel along that road towards the goal of making the married allowance double that of the single allowance.

I wonder how many people engaged in industry of one class or another, when they were promised the benefits of the 12 per cent increase by Fianna Fáil, realised that there would be no 12 per cent increase in the allowance for tax purposes, but that the whole of their increased wages and salaries would be taken into account by the taxation authorities when sending out their 1964-65 demands.

Apart from the individual aspects of the Budget which has failed in those respects, what are the objectives that we should be considering? I suggest there are six for any Government in any country, and particularly in Ireland. The first is full employment. The record of the Government, in their Pink Book, of 50,000 fewer at work in Ireland in the past seven years is not impressive.

The second objective is to keep the value of money stable. The manner in which the cost of living has increased, as a result of the action of the Minister a year ago—which is another way of saying that the value of money has decreased—is adequate evidence of the failure of the Government in that respect.

The third is a reasonable distribution of income. In Ireland we have not got a very high excess of great wealth at the top. It is not, therefore, a matter that requires budgetary adjustment here to quite the same degree as it does elsewhere. Would anyone consider that the manner in which State pensioners have been treated in this Budget represents a reasonable distribution of income?

The fourth point that would be set down by anyone examining the situation is equilibrium in payments in relation to dealings with foreign countries. I do not mean equilibrium each year, but one year with another. I have already indicated that the record of the Minister in that respect is one of paying with capital for current deficits.

The fifth objective is effective utilisation of our country's productive resources. Our primary productive resource is agriculture, and is it not a fact that in the past seven years it has been virtually static, has not progressed at all? Does the Minister consider that in that respect his Government can claim effective utilisation of the country's productive resources?

The sixth objective I would name would be rapid economic growth. I wonder how much of our economic growth over the past years has arisen from circumstances in other countries, and particularly in Britain, and how much we can hope for in economic growth in the future without proper provision for research, and without proper provision for the wider educational facilities which we need to bring the skills right to our door and into our daily lives? None of us can be certain that there will be a continuation of boom conditions in the world.

Under those six headings the Minister, his Budget, and the fiscal policy which he introduced this year have failed, and failed lamentably.

At the outset I want to congratulate the Minister on the very able and astute way in which he framed this year's Budget. It is acceptable to the people of the country and there is no shouting against it. I want particularly to thank him for the contributions which are to be passed on to the old age pensioners, the social welfare recipients, and to the hardest working section of the farming community, the dairy farmers, who are really the small farmers. They are getting the much-needed assistance which will help them out, and help them to meet the demands made to them to increase production and to increase the output of the nation.

Deputy Sweetman mentioned that the number of people employed in Kerry is lower than what it was two years ago. I assure Deputy Sweetman that that is not so. The average employment figure for Kerry has been kept more or less static. We have had changes—I suppose there will always be changes where employment is concerned—but Kerry has increased output very perceptibly and there are more people in employment there to-day than ever before.

Deputy Sweetman commented on the number employed now as against the number employed some years ago: I think he referred to 1957. The employment position in our county has changed vastly since those days. I can give Deputy Sweetman one instance. In the period 1948-50, Kerry County Council employed as many as 1,200 men to do a lesser job of work than is being done to-day. The reason for such a large number of men was that their employment was periodical. To-day, we have 400 men employed wholetime. By and large, the 1,200 men had an average of only three or four months' employment per year. That had been happening all over the country and it upset the balance of the numbers employed. Furthermore, mechanisation has reduced the number of people employed on farms. That was not expected to happen at an early date but it has happened and new jobs have to be found for people who were forced out of employment through mechanisation of farms. We are undergoing a form of readjustment in this country. Unfortunately, as I see it, more people must become unemployed before we find our proper level.

Take the small shopkeepers who formerly were able to rear and educate their families. They are really up against it to-day because of competition from big combines and big shopkeepers. A lot of our people earning their living in the distribution of goods will be displaced in that way and employment will have to be found for them.

Deputy Sweetman referred to heavy cattle exports in the first quarter. I do not know exactly what he is trying to get at. It is my job to keep in touch with the cattle position in my county. The quality of the cattle offered for sale to-day is far higher in value than the equivalent type of stock produced 20 years ago——

——when you cut their throats.

The increase in value is a very good sign that our farmers are doing a good job of work. They deserve the thanks of the nation and the help and encouragement of everybody in this House.

On the subject of farming, it is time an examination were carried out of the subsidies channelled into this industry. The figures produced by An Foras Talúntais seem to indicate that, in general, the subsidies are not achieving the desired results in respect of counties which are capable of producing the maximum by virtue of the fact that they have some of the best land in Ireland. Only two-fifths of County Kerry is arable or suitable for direct agricultural production and yet we are the second highest in the nation inasmuch as we are producing £16.1 per acre, Dublin being the highest at £19.4. The figure of £16.1 gives us an average of £7 per week whereas Westmeath, with some of the best land in Ireland, produces £8.2 or half what Kerry gets, exactly. There should be some information as to where the money of the nation is being channelled in respect of agriculture. We should endeavour to achieve extra production from quarters which can produce the maximum. I shall expand that point on the debate on the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture.

In County Kerry, 22,296 people are engaged in agriculture and, according to the figure reported here, they get an average of £7 per week. We have much more people engaged in other forms of industry throughout our county and I can assure Deputy Sweetman that we have nothing to fear in County Kerry. The reduction in our population is similar to that of the average rural county in Ireland, leaving out the counties with cities.

Deputy Sweetman remarked that an unskilled man does nothing to increase productivity. I do not know what he was trying to get at or what his idea is of an unskilled man. In the past, unskilled men were considered to be those who had not a trade and they are mainly the people engaged in agriculture. In my view, they are the most highly skilled people in this country, and actually in the world. A person can become skilled at a trade, for example, in four or five years but a farm labourer plays a different role. I hope Deputy Sweetman was not referring to those people because they know their jobs and are doing very good work for the nation under most difficult conditions.

This Budget has helped in particular the most needy people in my county, particularly our dairy farmers, many of whom are smallholders. I trust that the Minister will see his way to give those people every type of assistance possible in the years ahead. They are working on the smallest holdings and yet they are trying to produce the maximum. They need every bit of assistance they can get. If subsidies can be given to people in other counties who achieve only the same output with half the effort the necessity to channel subsidies to people who need them most must be very obvious.

I want, in conclusion, to thank the Minister on behalf of my constituents, the people of Kerry, for the help which came their way this year and which was made available to the most needy areas. It was much appreciated.

This is a record Budget. It makes a shameful record when we break down the figures. Some of the figures I have here are Government issued statistics. Is it not a shame that since the inter-Party Government had control of the country, Fianna Fáil have doubled taxation? The actual figure when the inter-Party Government were in office was £108 million per annum while now it is just £1 million short of double that—£215 million. That is a record to be ashamed of.

In the past seven years since the inter-Party Government were in power, we have lost 250,000 people as emigrants. We have nearly 60,000 unemployed and we have 70,000 fewer people at work than we had eight years ago. These are figures issued by the Government. On the other side, rates and taxes have gone sky-high. Fianna Fáil must have gone into orbit. Are they trying to keep in line with some of the big countries of the world? As is usual with every Fianna Fáil Government, we have again increases in bread and flour prices, bus fares, sugar, rates and taxes. It is a record Budget of which the Government should be ashamed.

In addition, we have increased taxation on essential foods, fuel and clothing and finally on beer, cigarettes, petrol and diesel oil. What are the people getting in return? What are they getting in health services that were to cost only 2/- in the £? As a doctor, the Minister knows how far 2/- in the £ will go with doctors nowadays. We have a medical service that suits neither the patient nor the doctor.

That would be a matter for the Estimate.

I agree, but while doctors differ patients die. The Minister differs from the doctors and the patients are dying between them——

Do not bring me into that.

The Minister lost his vocation, or rather, he should have kept to it.

The Deputy should keep to the Budget debate.

I want to see that the Minister does not doctor too many Budgets, because I am afraid the people are getting the wrong needle.

The Taoiseach told us competition would keep prices down but where can you have competition in bread and flour prices when you have the flour-mills combining into rings, with the result that the smaller mills are squeezed out? Where can you have competition in the sugar industry? Does the Minister intend to allow in Castro to compete here? That is also sewn up and there is no competition. How can we have competition in bus or train fares? How can we have competition in postal services where we have increased charges for stamps, telephones, etc.? How can we have competition in petrol prices? Of course we have been promised increased ESB charges also. Most of these are semi-State concerns and they are setting a poor headline as regards keeping down prices.

This Budget holds out very little hope for the people of my constituency of West Galway. It does nothing to stop emigration. What have the industries done that were started in the west? Some of them have dismissed up to 84 and others 50 employees. There is great uneasiness among those who had been and who are employed at the moment. They see no hope in Fianna Fáil policy as evidenced in this Budget. We have more rates and taxes to pay and fewer people to pay them.

The cause of the increased rates is the Minister for Finance, the greatest nigger in the woodpile when it comes to bringing down the rates in our county. Increased rates are brought about by increased costs of running institutions; in other words, by the increased cost of living for which the Minister is responsible. We are asked to meet the 12 per cent which the worker is entitled to, to meet the cost of living, but it does not meet the cost of living. This 12 per cent has been eaten up in PAYE, increased rents, bus fares, etc. We have increased demands at every turn. We have a litany of increases, increased emigration, increased taxation, etc. We hear of cheaper petrol for tourists but the first people who should get cheaper petrol are our own taximen. If they have to meet competition from CIE, I do not see why they should not get the same concessions as CIE. Let us have competition there. These people play a big part in helping both tourists and citizens and they should receive some consideration. Taximen have to stand idle for seven or eight months of the year but they have to pay their road tax and keep their taxis in good condition.

Recently we had an expression of "no faith" in the Government's policy by the people of Carna. Anybody who knows anything about the people there knows that they have had the language for generations. Their expression of "no faith" arose when they asked for classes in English——

I cannot see how the Deputy can relate that to the Budget.

If you bear with me, Sir, I will show you. These people have been going, and are going in increasing numbers each year, to the British labour market. That is how it is related. These people decided no longer would they be hewers of wood and drawers of water on the English labour market. They felt that they were entitled to be able to compete on that market by having a proper speaking knowledge of the English language. Deputy Geoghegan comes from Carna and the Minister would be well advised to give his constituents some hope. The Taoiseach has been telling us that prosperity is around the corner. These people might be asking Deputy Geoghegan which corner is it around. The Taoiseach says he has turned to the left. I wonder did he see it around that corner. He will have to take a right turn or I am afraid it will be a turn about. I did speak about the Irish language. We have heard a lot from the Front Benches opposite about promoting the language. I wonder how much promotion has the Taoiseach given it?

The question of the Irish language does not arise on the Budget. The Deputy may raise it on the Estimate.

It is part of the Government's policy to compel the people——

We are discussing taxation and expenditure. The question of the language is not relevant.

We want to get into the Common Market, and there is the question of French. It would be no harm if the Taoiseach learned a bit of Irish.

The question does not arise on the Budget debate. If the Deputy proceeds to discuss the Irish language. I shall ask him to resume his seat. The matter is not relevant.

I suppose it will have to take a back seat. It has been taking a back seat for quite a long time so far as this Government are concerned.

We have heard a lot of talk about decentralisation and there is one type of decentralisation in which I should like the Minister to interest himself. There are girls in different Departments in Dublin and these should be changed back to their own areas or as near as possible to them.

That is a detail the Deputy might raise——

It is a matter of burning interest to——

It is not relevant to the Budget. We are discussing taxation and expenditure.

We will get back to that, to expenditure and to rising prices. I should like to know why the Government do not impose a standstill order on prices; they have tried it, or at least they are trying it, for 2½ years in regard to wages. Whether they will get away with it or not is another matter. The Minister and the Government should endeavour to keep prices at a proper level.

I suppose one will be told that it is a matter for another Department if one refers to the great need for telephones in my town. The Minister should whisper in the ear of his colleague, the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and tell him to expedite the installing of telephones——

That is a matter for the Estimate.

I did say that at the outset, but we are affected by this as we are a tourist area. We hear a lot of talk and a lot of lipservice being paid by the Minister and different Departments in this matter and I should like to see something done to help the people in that respect.

It does not arise on the Budget.

We heard the Taoiseach telling us that we never had it as good. There is another Minister who is a "dab hand" at making statements at dinners, the Minister for Transport and Power, the Minister without function. The only function he has is to go to dinners and make speeches about how well off we are.

We are not discussing the Minister for Transport and Power.

I hear housewives on Saturday mornings, when they have purchased their necessaries, murmuring about what has happened their money. When they come out of a shop they look into their purses and ask themselves if they have lost money and then they look into their shopping bags and see less there than ever. All this has been brought about by this famous 2½ per cent. The Minister would do well to go around the shops on a Saturday and hear these women murmuring. When these people find that they have not lost money but that the Minister had his hand in their purses they then realise what the 2½ per cent means.

We heard talk about farmers qualifying for rates relief. I think it will only be the ranchers who will qualify and there are no ranchers in my constituency. The benefit we are supposed to get will not reach the west. There are a few urban farmers in different parts of the country. The local rates do not benefit and that is a matter in which the Minister should interest himself.

We hear about all the reliefs that have been given. I should like to know what relief will be given to the ratepayers in urban areas who are paying such high rates. It is all right for the Minister to make promises but the people are taking these promises with a grain of salt. The farmers in the midlands paraded and got away with it. The housewives paraded but they did not get away with it. They got the full lash of the whip from the Taoiseach.

On the far edge of my constituency, there are the Aran Islands. These islanders have to pay taxes just the same as the people in the rest of Ireland. I should like to know what amenities the Minister intends to provide for these people. They have not the services of the ESB out there. They have not the services of CIE. They have the boat which will come only when weather conditions are suitable. They have no TV and they have no hospital services. This is the situation, notwithstanding all the promises made one time by Fianna Fáil in regard to hospitalisation. Like the rest of the tourist areas, these islanders cater for tourists and I should like to see them getting more amenities.

The hotels and guesthouses in the west accepted bookings early in the year when they had set their prices. Now the Minister in this Budget takes a slice from these people. It is most unfair they should have to pay the increases which they will not be able to pass on. Tourism is one of our major industries and these people are entitled to relief. I cannot understand why the Government are not prepared to give the same grants to urban and country applicants. The people in the towns are entitled to the same treatment as their country cousins.

It has been very amusing to hear the Minister boasting about the great housing drive. Can the Minister explain why there is such a poor record in regard to house building in Galway city? At one side of the country, the houses are falling down and at the other side, the people are cluttered up like chickens in a box. I should like to know what hope the Minister has for the 200 applicants on the housing list of Galway city.

The Deputy knows that has no relevance to the discussion.

Fianna Fáil have been boasting here about the great housing drive.

The Deputy cannot make it relevant in that way. Let him deal with what is before the House.

It was mentioned here by several Deputies. I can at least ask the Minister why in the past seven years—and I challenge contradiction on this because I am a member of the corporation——

I must ask the Deputy to desist from that line of discussion.

Other Deputies have given figures.

I am ruling that what the Deputy is trying to discuss has no relevance whatsoever.

This Budget provides no hope for certain people who wish to settle down here, to live in contentment and under conditions which we hear the Minister say are wonderful. The Minister tries to encourage young people to marry. There is very little encouragement to young people to marry when they have no hope for the future. While I am not entitled to dwell on housing, I am entitled to dwell on the failure of the Fianna Fáil Government who have shown little hope to our people.

I have referred to a record Budget of which the Fianna Fáil Party should be ashamed. It is the greatest record yet of taxation on the people, driving more of them out of the country. If it is for that Deputies had to stand up here and congratulate the Minister, it is an appalling state of affairs. We have been asked what we might have done if we were in? Where would we get the money? The money for what? Where did we get the money when we ran the country on £108 million, half the amount it takes to run it now? Fianna Fáil must be bereft of a policy when they ask this side of the House to tell them how to raise money.

On top of this increase in taxation which is being imposed on the people, we have to borrow £82 million this year. About eight or nine years ago, Fianna Fáil were shouting that the country was in pawn when this side of the House were then in Government. The amount involved then was £20 million. They did everything possible to try to undermine the then Government. It is nothing new to Fianna Fáil to produce a record of which they can be ashamed.

I wish to add just a word or two to what has already been said in this debate which, as I recall, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance a fortnight ago stated to have been coming to an end. I do not think it is unfair for us on this side of the House to say in relation to the claims made on behalf of the Government and in relation to the propaganda used by the Fianna Fáil Party in Government, that it is always the same strain and the same story: the people are always told there will be jam tomorrow, when, in fact, they find the situation is that there is never jam today. That tendency in the propaganda of the Fianna Fáil Party was very marked in this as in the Budget debate of last year, the year before and every year back to 1957.

It appears to me that Fianna Fáil speakers have been saying consistently through the years that this country is always on the threshold of great things; we are always poised to advance. There are always good things just around the corner. You may have to take a sharp turn to the left but round the corner, there will be prosperity. The trouble, of course, is that this old familiar cry, this old familiar song, is like the ditties and choruses that we all used to sing when we marched, as Emergency soldiers, some years ago. After a bit the refrain becomes a bit hard on the ears. I think it is becoming a bit hard on the ears of the people of this country now: the good times that are always like the crock of gold at the other end of the rainbow become illusory in the end.

I think one can consider this Budget, and what is involved in it, in the light of that background because last year we had a long debate on the 1963 Budget and what was involved in it. We had that debate in the light and in the knowledge that very shortly the people of an important city constituency would have to pronounce, in the manner in which they elected a Deputy to this House, their approval or disapproval of the Budget. I remember well in the Budget debate of last year the many voices that promised so much on behalf of the Fianna Fáil Party. The new taxes were defended in the Budget debate of last year strenuously, vociferously, effectively and with an oratorical flamboyance that is never absent from the Fianna Fáil Party.

Indeed, I remember sitting here last year listening to Fianna Fáil speakers. I remember the emphasis that was put on the benefits which would flow from the turnover tax. A new vista was to be opened up—health services for the country. We were told, in the debate last year, once this tax goes into operation, once we can get rid of our reliance on the old-fashioned conservative methods of taxation, once we can have a new, solid system of raising revenue we will have reached El Dorado and we will have opened up a new vista for the country. The health services were to be substantially increased. We were to see better health services for more people and, generally speaking, substantial progress was to be made on this important front.

Then, of course, there is education. How many Fianna Fáil tears were shed last year with regard to the poor students, the young people of this country? How many Fianna Fáil Deputies last year stressed that, in relation to education, we were on the threshold of great events, if only the turnover tax went into operation? This year schoolboys may march in protest because the Intermediate examination cannot be held, because money apparently is not there to pay the secondary teachers. What a great difference there exists between the promises and the facts—all that was promised for education last year, and now in 1964, schoolboys go on strike. Well, I do not know where the jam is. We did not have jam last year, or the year before, or now, and, though it is promised next year, I do not believe the people will ever get jam from Fianna Fáil.

Fine Gael are the Party to do it, and no taxes.

They got jam and butter in Cork.

Strawberry jam.

Deputy Corry speaks a language that the English do not know. I should like to remind you, a Cheann Comhairle, because you are the only person I may address in this House, that the speeches in last year's Budget were reinforced by a Fianna Fáil political advertisement which was published in all the morning papers, the Irish Press, the Irish Independent, and the Irish Times, strange enough——

And the Cork Examiner.

——and the Cork Examiner on December 16th of last year. The message given to the people of Ireland was headed: “What not having the turnover tax would mean to you”. It would mean less work and more unemployment, lower wages and less job security. It would mean cuts in old-age pensions and other benefits. It would mean abandoning plans for education and it would mean that the plans for better health services would end. I do not know how the people who were addressed in that advertisement must feel now.

The turnover tax was introduced. It is now in operation. This very simple tax was to be easy to collect, would not impinge on living costs, would hurt no one, would yield a vast sum of money and would make reliance on conservative methods of taxation unnecessary. The tax was to contain the key to better health services, to better education, to more employment and to an expansion of our economy. It is all balderdash, rubbish. It has achieved nothing.

After all the debating, the controversy and all the events that took place last year, when the Minister for Finance faced a deficit of £5 to £6 million in his Budget, this year he comes back, bold as brass, with the serried ranks behind him, like so many donkeys smelling after a carrot, and once again, there is a deficit of £5 to £6 million. Once again, the Minister for Finance has come into the House shedding Fianna Fáil crocodile tears because he discovered the turnover tax, which he imposed last year, does not yield enough. "So," he said, "I have to go back to tax beer, petrol, spirits and all the things that I said could no longer be relied upon to produce increased revenue."

Do we ever pause for a moment and realise where this Government are leading the country? Not many years ago, when they got back into office, in 1957, Minister Ryan introduced a Budget. I remember it well. The food subsidies were uneconomic; they were a bad thing for the Irish national character. They had been introduced by Fianna Fáil but at that stage they were a bad thing. So, the remaining food subsidies went and in the Budget of 1957 the people were led to believe that with the removal of some £6 million worth of food subsidies, there would be relief in taxation. There was for a bit but then, of course, what happened is what always happens: wages went up; costs went up and the removal of the food subsidies was discovered in the following Budget to have cost the Minister for Finance twice the amount he set out to save.

Last year it was the same story. A turnover tax supposed to yield £12 million, which, in fact, has yielded more than it was ever intended to do, has had what effect?—a general increase in wage levels throughout the country of 12 per cent.

There is no connection whatever, as the Deputy well knows.

Deputy Booth has no connection with what I am talking about. He had better keep quiet. There was a 12 per cent increase in wage levels initiated by the Leader of the Government himself, by nobody else, initiated politically, because at the time there were by-elections pending to fill vacancies in this House.

That is a sore one.

He brought it about. He tied a tin can to a bull's tail and he can neither stop the bull nor get back the can now. There was an increase of 12 per cent and up went living costs all around the country and then we had the Minister for Finance rending clothes and shedding tears, and the Taoiseach saying: "Wait now; do not go too far. They are entitled to an increase but be careful. The increase will cost money," and so it did, seven million pounds of the turnover tax went straight away in paying the Guards—they had to be paid very quickly, before February 18th—because they now had a vote; in paying the army—they had to be paid quickly, too, because of the Curragh Camp and Newbridge and Kildare and everything involved in that constituency; in paying the civil servants —they too had to be paid quickly; in paying the rural postmen and everybody tied to civil service rates. Seven million pounds was rushed out. So far as the rest of the people were concerned, they were either getting it or it was "in the post tomorrow morning." So, by 18th February, Deputy Booth found that in the business for which he has some responsibility, I believe, 12 per cent had to be shed out and everybody was supposed to shine cars and put them together and to be as happy as Larry.

Is the Deputy against this?

I am against the fraud and pretence that went on because, four days later, after the votes had been filched from the people in Kildare and Cork, then the price had to be paid. Up went the price of flour, bread, railway fares. The Minister for Finance is sitting there as if he laid a political egg and is cackling, but it does not do any good. Here is the price in human suffering —flour, sugar, bus fares, electricity, milk——

No, not electricity, no.

It is coming, and you know it.

The Deputy says it has come.

It has come, too.

I certainly am aware of promptings and warnings from the good lady to whom I am married that I can look forward to an increase in my ESB bill. I am glad to be able to announce that the Minister for Finance now tells me— and this will be good news for the people—that there will be no increase in electricity.

I said there is no increase.

Am I to understand that there is to be no increase in electricity bills?

I said there is no increase. The Deputy said there is.

Deputy O'Higgins is entitled to speak without interruption.

He is not entitled to cross-examine.

Rates, milk —will the Minister listen to what I am going to say—butter——

No increase in the price of butter.

Will the Minister give us an assurance that there will be no increase?

The Deputy wants assurances now.

I am speaking here as a Deputy on behalf of the Opposition.

The Deputy is not down in the Four Courts.

I want to know does the Minister assure me that there will be no increase in the price of butter that the ordinary people in this city and the people in Cork and Kildare will have to buy?

The Deputy is not in the courts.

I am perfectly aware of where I am. I was in this House before the Parliamentary Secretary and I will be here after he has gone.

And your people were here before you.

I do not need to be reminded as to where I am speaking. I want to know, if the Minister for Finance chooses to interrupt me, does he suggest that I am wrong in saying that, as a result of what has taken place, there is to be an increase now in the price of butter? Ominous ministerial silence—so, I am entitled to assume that the price of butter will go up and that the people in Deputy Booth's constituency, the people in the city of Cork, the people in every other urban part of this country, will have the pleasure of witnessing the Government being generous to the farmer, not at their own expense, but at the expense of the butter which the people in every urban area must buy.

Yes. "Keep the price of butter down and the price of milk down and hump the farmer"—say that.

Say that in Laois-Offaly.

I will say what I have said in Laois-Offaly or anywhere. Make no mistake about it.

It will keep you at the bottom where you have been for the past few elections.

I have not been at the bottom, thanks be to God and thanks be to the wisdom of the people of Laois-Offaly, as I am sure the Deputies Egan will jointly bear witness.

Just elected — last man in.

The situation we are facing in this Financial Statement we are discussing, involving Government policy, is that this 12 per cent, which was introduced as a political solatium for the difficulties last November of the Government, has now eaten up the turnover tax, has brought this Government back to where they were last year, except that costings are so much higher, everything is at a higher level. The whole operation has had this added effect, that there has been a deliberate increasing of the cost of living.

I should like to know where there has been good faith in all this matter. The 12 per cent national wage agreement was entered into and agreed to on the basis that there would be a stabilisation in living costs in this country. That was the basis upon which people entered into that agreement for 2½ years. It has been in operation now for only 14 weeks but during that period a number of essential articles have dramatically increased in price. Does that mean that this wage agreement will continue or is it to be altered? These are the things that ordinary people throughout the country are entitled to ask because they are concerned to know where this Government are leading this country or if, in fact, we are drifting along, as I strongly suspect, leaderless, just in the belief the old touring artist had when he went around from town to town—that everything would be all right on the night. I wonder will it.

Seven million pounds more for the Civil Service, and I feel sure they are entitled to it because of the increase in living costs; more money for every recognised category of voters, but a halfcrown for the old age pensioner. I wonder where is the logic in that? This is the Shakespearian period when we celebrate the anniversary of William Shakespeare. I remember a speech—I think in the Merchant of Venice— where the Jew, Shylock, indicated that he felt like other people, that he breathed like them, that he felt their aches and pains and so on. The old age pensioner, is he not like others? Is he not like the civil servant, the soldier, the policeman, or even Deputies? Does he not feel the impact of the rising prices the same as everyone else? Where is the logic in saying to him: "You will get a halfcrown. We know it is not 12 per cent, but that is what you will take; it is what you will have to make do with and you will only get it next August."

Budgets are supposed in any properly governed country to be based on social justice. It defeats me to ascertain where the social justice lies in pumping £40 million into our economy to pay every single group of people who could have the slightest political influence and, having done all that, to say to that scattered group in our community, the old people, who have not got any organisation to back them up: "You will make do with a halfcrown and we shall not pay you, because it would cost too much, until next August." They provide £750,000 in a total Budget of astronomical figures involving a total increase of £31 million. That is Fianna Fáil social justice. The truth is, of course, that this Budget and everything this Government have done, particularly in the past 18 months or so, has been based on political expediency. Their motto has been: "What is the expedient thing to do; if it is expedient, we shall do it."

Last year the farmers were the worst in the world. Like the shopkeepers, if they entered into politics, they would get their noses bloodied. What fine speeches we had from the Taoiseach and all the rest of them: they were the fellows who would stand up to the farmers: how dare the farmers march in Dublin—let them get back to their farms, headed by Deputy Corry, and behave themselves. That was the expedient thing to do. Then, of course, political pressure began to have its effect. Deputy Corry got rumblings in relation to his seat as did other Deputies in the Fianna Fáil Party.

Then it became expedient to introduce what the Taoiseach himself has described as a farmers' Budget and the farmer now is like a lapdog being told: "Get down; hold up your paws and appear thankful." Political expediency is all very well but once the Government proceed to operate on the lines of political expediency social justice is at a discount. There are not any politics, of course, in giving increases to old age pensioners. Not at all. The old age pensioner does not count here so he will get a halfcrown if he survives until next August. If he dies in the meantime, there is another good man gone. That is all it means to a Fianna Fáil Minister for Finance.

The old age pensioner may pay more for butter. He will certainly pay more for milk. If he travels in a bus, he will find his bus fare has gone up. He will pay more for bread, more for the simple things he will buy, but he will have to shoulder it like any old soldier until next August and then he will get 30 pence. No 12 per cent for the old age pensioner——

They sold him for 30 pieces of copper.

I do not know what this Budget means. This famous advertisement addressed to the people of Ireland told them what not having the turnover tax would mean— less work, more unemployment. Not having it——

You have it.

The result is that the people have had it, because there are fewer people at work and there is more unemployment.

There is not.

It is about time the fraud and pretence of the Fianna Fáil Party were disclosed. There are 70,000 fewer people working in Ireland than there were seven years ago, 10,000 fewer people per year. Can those figures be challenged?

Of course.

I shall deal with them.

The Minister for Finance has so many things to deal with but he is dealing from a false deck.

From what?

Ask the Taoiseach—he will understand the reference. The fact is there are 70,000 fewer people at work now than there were in 1957.

April, 1957.

That has not been the trend in the past three years and the Deputy knows it.

I heard the Minister for Health in the Devonshire Arms in Blessington. Deputy Tully was present; the Parliamentary Secretary was present, in spirit at least—at this stage he had lost interest because he heard the Tánaiste about to launch into figures. The Central Statistics Office were issuing extraordinary figures, but they were wrong—so wrong that the Government sent the figures back and told them to come again because apparently it had transpired that the Central Statistics Office had issued figures to the effect that emigration had increased from 12,500 to 25,000. I was so interested in the Tánaiste's proceedings that I tabled a question asking the Taoiseach what was happening. It transpired that the Taoiseach, having had his mind directed to the announcement made by the Tánaiste, got in touch with the Central Statistics Office and found that the figures were not in error, that it was the Tánaiste who was wrong. It was not correct that the Government had to send back the figures because they were wrong. I was glad to hear that. It was correct that the emigration figures had doubled.

They fell from 60,000 to 25,000.

If you have a bucketful of water and you start emptying out the water, at some stage the bucket will be empty. In this country we have so many people. Since 1957, 250,000 have emigrated.

And before it.

The only time emigration ever stopped in this country was when the Cumann na nGaedheal Government finally left office in 1932. At that stage more people were coming to this country than leaving it.

Such a statement!

Those are the facts. I want to direct attention again to what I was saying about the bucket of water. The water is pouring out of the bucket. At some stage we are bound to reach the situation in which there will be nobody else to emigrate —and then the Fianna Fáil plan will have succeeded. The only trouble is we will have nothing in the country except bullocks and a few scattered trees. There will be no people left. The latest statistics available show that the total number of people in the country has dropped dramatically. Do the Government think that because emigration, which was running at 60,000 in 1957 and 50,000 in 1958, is now running at 25,000, progress is being made? The fact is that the people are not there. They are all over in England or elsewhere.

They ran in 1957 after you.

I should like to use a phrase very popular in Fianna Fáil advertisements in the general election of 1957: "The test is work." How many people are at work? There are 70,000 fewer people at work now than there were seven years ago.

Because of your disastrous financial policy.

You cannot keep on blaming us. That was all right for 12 months. I used to hear Deputy Corry say: "Sure, we had to do it because they left us in debt." That was seven years ago. These old clichés and alibis do not continue to work. This Government have been seven years in office. They have had a full opportunity of doing what they like, not embarrassed in this House vide Deputy Leneghan——

Leave Deputy Leneghan out of this. The ghost of Rory O'Connor is haunting the O'Higginses.

——with a tied tail that will always go around the place sweeping up the rest for Fianna Fáil. At the end of it all, the facts are that there are fewer people at work, more emigration, a higher cost of living——

Less emigration.

Does the Minister wish to make a point of the fact that emigration is now running at merely 27,000?

(Interruptions.)

The total emigration for the period is astronomical. It does not in any way seem to be nearing the end, except for the fact that we are reaching the stage, slowly but surely, when there will not be anybody left to emigrate. I know the view is strongly held in Fianna Fáil that emigration is a good thing.

It was the leader of your Party who expressed that view.

Éamon de Valera was never the leader of my Party. I remember the present President when Leader of Fianna Fáil stating that emigration is a good thing.

It was Deputy Dillon said that.

It was said by the Leader of Fianna Fáil as Taoiseach of the Government.

Quote your reference.

I will make my speech. Let the Parliamentary Secretary make his on another occasion. I know that that view, expressed by the leaders of Fianna Fáil, has been held by many Fianna Fáil Deputies. If you get the people out, they are away in England. They are off the register. They probably have a job. They send money back home. They are not a problem any more. Where you have complete fluidity of labour between two countries, it probably solves and certainly prevents unemployment becoming a real problem. That has been the safety valve for a deficient economy for the past seven years. If we had not had emigration, we would now have 300,000 people idle here. If we had that situation, we would have something approaching a revolution; but we have had the safety valve of emigration. Do not let any member of this Government try to deny the fact that secretly they have rejoiced that an Irish boy or girl who cannot get a job here can go across to England. More power to him, they say. They proceed to be concerned with the shrinking number of people at work here.

It has gone up by 30,000 in the past three years.

The Parliamentary Secretary is talking rubbish.

I am not. Read carefully the book you have there.

These figures in Economic Statistics were issued on the authority of the Minister for Finance. They show that the total number of people at work here now, gainfully employed, is just over one million.

Quote the figures for the past three years.

Seven years ago, there were something just short of 1,200,000 people gainfully employed here. What has happened? Have they just evaporated? Have they been taken up? The number gainfully employed now is the lowest ever.

Will the Deputy quote the figures in that table for the past three years?

I am quoting the figures to show that the number gainfully employed now in this country is at the lowest level ever.

Which is just not true.

That is the result of Fianna Fáil policy. And the people are supposed to rejoice. At what? Everything is costing more and there are fewer to pay the increased costs. I do not know where it will end. There has been talk about inflation. If inflation means that the real value of money is dropping, then I am certain that we are now in an inflationary period. If we are, the responsibility is that of the Government. If we are, then the solution must be found by the Government.

I do not believe that any real progress can be made until stability in prices is achieved. Once that is achieved and once, in conditions of stability, we produce more, then we will begin to make an impact on the problems facing the country. In the past seven years—I believe it is due to weak Government—there has been a plea for "give, give, give," all the time and the result has been that any apparent progress has very quickly become quite illusory, because prices have gone up and the apparent return the workers are getting turns into counterfeit coinage in their pockets.

We have made no progress and the result of that lack of progress is clear. There is nothing to encourage our people to stay at home. Our people are still seeking real remuneration elsewhere. We have had a plethora of plans, policy statements and programmes, intended, in my opinion, to act as a sedative. These are the bromides dished out to the people with the First Programme for Economic Expansion, the Second Programme, and so on. The object is to distract public attention from the fact that we are getting nowhere fast. The Fianna Fáil Party have been marching round in a circle. There has been no progress. I believe this will quickly become apparent, if it is not apparent already, to the people.

Having said all that, as fairly as possible, I want now to say something pleasant to the Minister. I want to express my personal satisfaction that he has decided in this Budget to remove responsibility for the payment of income tax from the Voluntary Health Insurance Board. The Minister must have been subjected to very staid and conservative advice in this regard over the years and I have no doubt that he was faced with a problem in granting this relief in that he might be creating a precedent in relation to other bodies and corporations. All the more credit is due to him, therefore, for his deciding to give this particular relief.

I should explain that, under the statute which established the Board, there was a statutory obligation on the Board not to make a profit out of its operations. The Board does not receive any income from State funds, any subsidy, or subvention. When it was set up it received a State loan—I believe it did not avail of the full loan —which it repaid very shortly afterwards with full commercial interest. The State suffered no loss of any kind. However, out of the premium income, which is the only income available to the Board, it had to meet liability for income tax. The Board was under statutory obligation to plough back any apparent profit into an increase in benefits and on any excess premium income over claims, it had to pay income tax. I am glad the Minister has decided to remove that obligation. Presumably the details will be published in the Finance Bill.

Would the Minister consider making the concession retrospective? When the Bill setting up the Board was before the House, there was a section in the original draft providing for what the Minister now proposes to do. I was reminded at the time that the section was not appropriate and it was agreed that the relief would be included subsequently in the Finance Bill of 1957. Unfortunately, there is no departmental record in that regard, or so the Minister has assured me. But what I state is the fact. Had that undertaking been carried out in 1957, the Board would not have been liable for tax in the past seven years. Perhaps the Minister would bear that in mind when drafting the details of the Finance Bill.

In conclusion, let me say that this debate is the most important debate in the year. In it the entire ambit of Government policy is open to discussion. Irrespective of what side of the House we sit, I think it is true that all of us, according to our lights, fancies, or fallacies, try to subscribe in our own way to the betterment of the country. I often see criticisms of the Dáil and of Deputies; I often hear talk about whole-time and part-time Deputies, and all the rest of it. I believe this House would compare favourably with any other Parliament in Western Europe. I believe we conduct our proceedings well, at times forcibly, but always in the national interest, and I hope that we shall always continue to do so.

This Budget debate is drawing to a close. Views have been expressed by most Deputies. Some have expressed their admiration of the provisions in the Budget; others have expressed their condemnation; and more have expressed their disappointment.

I should like to place on record that the views which I propose to express in relation to the Budget for the financial year 1964-65, and the opinions which have been expressed on this side of the House, are and were expressed in good faith. I am sure the Minister is prepared to accept that the opinions of every Party in the House are given in good faith, and delivered with a high degree of sincerity. The views of Fine Gael have been ably and eloquently stated by the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Sweetman. We have had good Ministers for Finance in the past, and while I do not intend to criticise the activities of the present holder of the office, it is generally held throughout the country that the best Minister for Finance we have ever had since the foundation of the State was Deputy Sweetman. The Fine Gael policy in relation to this Budget is based on the pronouncements of Deputy Sweetman. While he was Minister for Finance, he left on the face of this country the imprint of his honesty and sincerity. Therefore, whether the Minister agrees or disagrees with what we say, our opinions are delivered in good faith, and with a high degree of sincerity.

I should be dishonest if I said all the provisions in the Budget are bad. They are not all bad. There are some good provisions in it. My complaint is that they are not good enough. I do not disagree with the increase of 2/6 a week to the old age pensioners next August. My complaint is that, instead of the 2/6 a week next August, it should be at least 10/- a week from now. I should be dishonest if I did not say there are many people in receipt of old age pensions today, who, because of the conditions under which they are forced to exist, will be very pleased to get the 30 pence, as it has been described. I am not opposed to the old age pensioners getting the 30 pence which the Minister is giving them in the Budget, but I am keenly disappointed with the whole framework of the Budget.

In view of the introduction and imposition of the turnover tax, there was a high degree of expectation that we would have a really good Budget this year, because we had the guarantee of the Minister, when introducing the turnover tax, that it would be hardly noticeable. I want now to quote from the Evening Herald of 16th April, 1964:

To refresh our memory we must go back to a day in the Dáil when Dr. Ryan, Minister for Finance, announced, almost casually, his 2½ per cent purchase tax. It was something, we were assured at the time, which would be remote from the people and only touch their pockets, if it touched them at all, in a remote way.

The Parliamentary Secretary said it would be on fur coats only.

That is the opinion of one of the most widely read journals in circulation. They remind the Minister of the casual way in which he imposed the turnover tax on every single item, practically: on everything we wear, everything we purchase, and everything we eat. All are subject to the 2½ per cent turnover tax. We were told before it was introduced that the moment it was in operation, that would be the end of our financial worries and troubles, and that when the people understood it, they would be only too glad and delighted to pay it voluntarily, and with the greatest pleasure, realising that that would be the end of the matter, that no further taxation would be imposed, and that a considerable amount of relief would be given to taxpayers, particularly those already saddled with income tax. We were told that the turnover tax was being imposed for the purpose of taking the burden of taxation from those who were already paying more than their share of income tax.

There is no relief in this Budget for those paying income tax. I want to express my keen disappointment about that matter. While a 12 per cent increase in wages has been granted, the State will rake in more in income tax. It is like the story we hear so often of giving with one hand and taking back with the other. The workers have got an increase of 12 per cent in their wages, but the prices of bread, flour, butter, tea, sugar, tobacco, cigarettes and petrol have been deliberately increased and, at the same time, no improvement has been made in the provisions relating to income tax. That means that there is no change in the allowance granted, and the more the people earn, the more they have to pay.

I venture to say that as a result of the 2½ per cent turnover tax, as a result of the 12 per cent wage increase, as a result of the subsequent increase in the cost of living and the price of every single commodity, our people are worse off and poorer than they were before. I am disappointed with this Budget because there were thousands of people who expected great things from it. The farming community seem to be the most keenly disappointed, despite the fact that the Budget has been described as a farmers' Budget. I do not see anything in it which would lead me to be present at its baptism under the title of a farmers' Budget.

What is there in the Budget that will be of great benefit to the farming community? There is the 2d a gallon on milk which has been widely debated already. That 2d on the gallon of milk will probably put the milk producers where they should have been 2½ years ago. To give the milk producers any real financial benefit to help them to meet their increased costs, they would need at least an increase of 4d or 5d per gallon for milk. The 2d a gallon which the Budget now gives the milk producers has been a great disappointment to the farming community and has added insult to injury. Our farming community are expected to be very grateful for small mercies. Our farmers are the best in the world and, if they were not, they would have had to go out of existence long ago as a result of Fianna Fáil policy. The increase of 2d a gallon on milk is insufficient.

Mention has been made of rates relief. The rating authorities have no idea how the money provided in this Budget for rate relief will be allocated. The man with a very low valuation will derive least benefit from the concession. The relief for our rural ratepayers will prove insufficient to offset the effect of the steady increase in rates which has taken place each year. The Minister for Finance should know that the rates have gone beyond the point where our people can pay them. Perhaps the Minister for Finance will tell the House how much he intends to provide in respect of the relief of rates in our towns and cities. It would seem as if an effort were being made to create a division between the urban and the rural ratepayer. That should not be done. If the Minister wants to curry favour with the rural ratepayer and to fleece the urban ratepayer, I must say I cannot understand it.

If rural ratepayers are to be given substantial reliefs under this Budget, I would ask the Minister in all sincerity to bear in mind the heavy burden of rates to be met by our town, city and urban populations. When we speak in this House of ratepayers, the general belief is that the ratepayer is a man with a big farm, whereas, in fact, the ratepayer is also the man living in the business house in town, the private citizen in an urban area, the cottage tenant, and so on. We all know and we all agree that the rural ratepayer is rated to his fullest capacity and that he cannot pay any more but the Minister must also do for the urban ratepayer with no land or property but the four walls of his house what he has done for the rural ratepayer. As a matter of interest, I would ask the Minister to examine the rating position in Ballinasloe which is but a few miles from my constituency.

The serious part about the increase in urban rates is that it is reflected in the rents of houses and therefore adversely affects poor tenants. If the rates go up in an urban area, the urban authority must get the money from the urban ratepayers and, in order to meet the position, the rents of houses in urban districts and in our cities have vastly increased to the detriment of the unfortunate tenants who already have had to meet increased bus fares and an increased cost of living and who, because they are already overtaxed, are not in a position to meet the increase. When framing his election Budget next year, the Minister for Finance should make provision to extend the generosity of the State to the urban ratepayer.

We all agree that housing, roads and other schemes of development that must be undertaken by local authorities must be financed from rates but the State has a serious obligation in relation to these matters. This Budget contains nothing new on the rating problem: it is the same old sock, neatly darned. That is why I have been wondering why the Government and the Minister for Finance have not faced this problem in a more courageous manner. If the Government are as good as the Minister for Finance says they are, then nothing should be too big or too difficult for them in tackling this major problem. The time has come when some steps should be taken by the Minister in charge of the Department concerned to prevent the vast increases in valuation which are taking place all over the country.

There is a separate Estimate dealing with the matter. It does not arise on the Budget.

The Minister for Finance, in giving rate relief, should consider the claims made by people.

I come now to the tax on spirits and its effect on the licensed trade in general. If the licensed trade were dependent on people such as myself, it would have had to go out of business long ago. Because so many people like me do not frequent licensed premises, the livelihood of publicans is being made more difficult. The licensed trade represents a very important section of the community. Thousands of people are employed in it and there are thousands of licensed vintners in the country contributing in no small way to the general well-being. I have great admiration for those in the licensed trade who have improved and extended their premises and brought them up to the hygienic standards laid down by the health authorities in each county. Those in the trade now have to work longer hours than probably any other section of the community. As the farmer is on the land so the publicans are behind their counters.

I expected that the Minister in the Budget would have realised that the licensed trade needed a fillip. I hope the Minister bears in mind the growing tendency for people to avoid licensed premises. Each year fewer people frequent them and fewer people are drinking. That may be very commendable and I do not disagree with it from the moral point of view but we must remember that the brewing and distilling industries are two of the oldest and most important industries we have. The licensed trade in itself is, perhaps, one of the most important. So, in order that business might be brought back to the trade, I expected some relief in the Budget for it.

We who are temperate are not so narrow-minded as not to admire a man who takes a drink. It has always been admitted that a drink may be very good for anybody. Temperance movements are concerned only with the abuses in the consumption of alcoholic drink. Most of our publicans, thank God, are people with well-conducted premises who do not serve drink to those who have already consumed sufficient and they are to be congratulated on that. They have to pay increased rates and taxes, increased wages and meet an increased cost of living for themselves. Surely, faced with all this, they are not so insignificant as to qualify for no relief whatever?

It is too late for this Budget but I ask the Minister in the next Budget to give some relief to the licensed trade and to the brewing and distilling industries which give so much employment. If the Minister cannot give it in one way, he can give it in the form of some special assistance to these industries. Imported spirits are being subjected to increased charges. I do not object to that; I always hold that Irish whiskey is as good as the best Scotch imported. If our people want to drink whiskey, they have Irish whiskey manufactured with the highest efficiency. Our distillers can take their place among the best in the world. That was proved by the response secured when one of our best-known distillers, D.E. Williams of Tullamore, sent a representative to seek a market for Irish Mist and Irish whiskey in the US.

If the Minister really wants to help the industry, in my opinion, he has taken a step in the right direction by increasing the price of imported whiskey and allowing the price of the home product to stand. I believe in the Irish product and in Irish industry and I believe we can produce as good a commodity as any other country. I cannot describe myself as a connoisseur of whiskey as I would not know the difference between Irish and Scotch, even by smell. If our people want to drink Scotch whisky and imported spirits, make them pay for it and give them our own whiskey at the reduced rate. I cannot see why whiskey drinkers should have any serious objection to the Budget. One would have to be an experienced whiskey drinker to express their sentiments——

The Deputy is going into a great deal of detail on the matter of whiskey.

I agree. Probably I am, and I shall be guided by your ruling, but as whiskey has been singled out for mention in the Budget in regard to tax on imported whisky, I was expressing the view that the Minister was not far wrong in trying to popularise Irish whiskey. We seem to fall down here because Scotch whisky has secured a name for itself but I feel that Irish whiskey can meet the challenge. I will leave it at that and just ask the Minister to bear in mind, for next year's Budget, the question of granting further concessions to our distilling industry.

He and his Department should help in a great export drive in order to popularise Irish whiskey in the United States and on the Continent. I always felt that we slipped up badly in this matter, not alone in relation to whiskey but to bacon, beef, cheese and to everything we can export. It should be our aim to popularise our exports abroad. Over the years I have been keenly disappointed by the salesmanship of our people abroad. The time has come for a general reorganisation and a general stocktaking. Whether those people who are engaged to that capacity have met with a measure of success or not, it is time to review the situation and Budget time is the time to direct the Minister's attention——

It does not arise at Budget time. It might be a matter for another debate but not for the debate on the Budget.

I should like to direct the attention of the Minister to the reliefs in the Budget for the woollen and worsted industry. Ample provision should be made for the protection of this industry. If some provision is not made, the industry is likely to fall on lean times.

The Minister is anxious to have Irish capital invested in industry but there is one industry which has not received the financial support from the Government which it might receive, that is, the coal-mining industry. Employment and emigration have been discussed here. I cannot understand why it is that on the high seas our ships can exchange waves, one bringing in coal and the other bringing it out.

It does not seem to be a matter for debate on the Budget. This is a debate confined to taxation.

I want to see some of the taxes that are being collected by the Minister spent on the development of our coalmines, particularly anthracite——

The matter does not arise on the Budget debate. It is a matter for an Estimate.

I am sure I can refer to the financial assistance being given in relation to pigs. Does this increased guaranteed price for pigs mean that the housewife and the consumer will have cheaper bacon? I cannot understand the position in relation to the price of pigs and the price of bacon.

That surely would be a matter for the Minister for Agriculture.

I do not think so.

It is a detail of agricultural policy relevantly arising on the Estimate. To go into details of production is not in order on the Budget.

This provision in the Budget guaranteeing an increased price for pigs should be followed up by the Minister to ensure that our people will be given the highest quality bacon at the most reasonable prices possible.

That leads me to the question of price control which most certainly is relevant to this Budget. Have the Government lost all their reason in relation to prices and during the coming year are they going to allow things to drift as they have allowed them to drift for the past couple of years? The cost of living has soared. I always thought that there was a lot of commonsense in what the Leader of the Labour Party said when he advocated certain price controls. If the cost of living is not to run amuck completely, the Government should endeavour to control the prices of essential foodstuffs.

When the Finance Bill has been passed and when the Minister settles down to another year of office, when he has plenty of time at his disposal calmly to consider the whole situation, I hope he will reflect on the folly of this policy of taxing the essentials of life, namely, bread, flour and butter. These three items should not be subjected to the turnover tax. They constitute the main diet of poor people; yet we find they are subjected to the turnover tax. The time has come for the Government to pinch themselves and to wake up and to realise that it is wrong for any Government to do this. They should bear in mind that since the foundation of this State, no other Party imposed taxes on the essentials of life such as the three I have mentioned, bread, flour and butter. Only Fianna Fáil imposed these taxes and is it not time for them to depart from that policy and to give some measure of relief to those who cannot exist without these three essentials?

I want to protest against the increase in taxation imposed in this Budget on petrol. Undoubtedly we have the most expensive motoring in the world here in Ireland. When I heard that people were advocating that tourists should get cheap petrol and our own people should pay the increased price, I wondered if we were losing whatever intelligence we have. Tourists come to this country for holidays, to enjoy themselves, to enjoy our hospitality and our scenery. Certain people were advocating that the millionaires and the well-to-do who visit this country should be given vouchers for cheap petrol, cheap petrol for the well-to-do tourist who can well afford to pay for it. Why not give the cheap petrol to the bog worker who has to use his car to get to work in the midlands and elsewhere? Why not give the cheap petrol to members of trade unions who need a motor car to get to and from their work?

Have we not now reached the stage when a motor car is no longer a luxury but a necessity? Thank goodness, we have seen the day when the farmer can drive around in his car. Who is better entitled to drive around in a car? Any worker, farmer or businessman who needs a car as a means of transport to assist him in his livelihood is entitled to it. Here we have another imposition on petrol.

May I point out to Deputy Flanagan that the separate taxes, including the petrol tax, will come up for specific discussion on the Finance Bill? The Deputy is entitled to refer to the petrol tax but not in the detail into which he is going.

I am quite satisfied with protesting against the unreasonable attitude of the Minister, having regard to the fact that the cost of motoring in this country is probably the dearest in the world, in adding to the discomfort, not the comfort, of motoring, with this new burden which must lead to a certain amount of unemployment, inconvenience and hardship. The Minister would be well advised to withdraw this unnecessary increase in the price of petrol.

There is the major Budget and then there is what we can describe as the little budget, the budget of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. On one side, we have the dearest motoring in the world and on the other side, the dearest postal charges in the world. In charging 5d. postage on a letter, the Government have lost all sense of reason in relation to postal charges. It is outrageous to extract revenue from the people by making the 4d. stamp 5d., increasing the cost of the telegram to a minimum of 5/- and increasing telephone rentals and charges. As well as being unsound, it is very stupid.

Look at the additional costs this imposition will mean for business. Surely telephone subscribers are paying sufficient? The service is not up to the high standard expected for such a demand from their pockets. The Post Office is there as a service to the people. We are now told the Post Office must pay its way. Telephones and postage are essential to business, to the working life of the community. I am surprised there has not been a greater degree of protest from our people. We have reached the stage in this country when there is no use in protesting about anything. Protests are published on paper and that is where they end.

Not alone will these increases to which I have referred have a very serious effect but they are morally wrong. I do not intend to set myself up as a theologian, particularly with reference to the Seventh Commandment, but if the Seventh Commandment applies to the individual, it applies to the State. If it is wrong for the individual to charge excessively, it must be equally wrong for the State to charge excessively. I believe the postal charges are excessive and that they are wrong, morally and otherwise.

What is in this Budget for old age pensioners? Nothing to date but 2/6 from next August. What is in the Budget for the contributory pensioner? Nothing. What is in the Budget for the widows and orphans, for the social welfare recipients, the sick, the disabled and the blind? Nothing. What is in the Budget for the unorganised worker? What is in this Budget for the vast numbers of our people who are unorganised and living on fixed incomes, who have no hope of a 12 per cent increase, who have nobody to fight for them, nobody interested in them? There is nothing whatever in this Budget for such people.

I know the Minister for Finance would want to be a magician to have something in the Budget to please everybody. I grant that he is not a magician and nobody expects him to be. The least we expect is that something will be given to the most hard-pressed section of our people, the poor, For the Minister to tell us there are now no poor in the country is an expression of opinion that calls for loud laughter. Those of us who are connected with charitable organisations and who lend a voluntary hand in the relief of destitution know very well that there is a very big section of our people, poor people, who are not covered by State benefits. But social welfare does not cover all our poor. That is why I say a great number of our people are living on the volume of support they get from charitable organisations and there is nothing in this Budget which will give any relief whatever to those people. I have often wondered why some practical form of assistance has not been provided for such people.

I expected that in this Budget there would have been some provision for interest-free credit. Again I am disappointed. Our people are asked to work harder and to produce more. Many of them are neglected in so far as financial resources are concerned. I have often wondered why the Minister for Finance never took it upon himself to call the banks together for the purpose of directing that their lending rates of interest should be drastically reduced and that an effort should be made to introduce for the most deserving sections of our people interest-free money for expansion and development. I think it is desirable and will have to come.

I do not propose to say anything in relation to health beyond referring to the disappointment felt that nothing has been done in the Budget about it. What has been done in this Budget for health? The only thing I can see is the price of cigarettes has been increased, and a Minister took it upon himself to make a pronouncement that the Government were so interested in the prevention of lung cancer that they increased the price of cigarettes. Whom do they think they are fooling with that type of talk? There is nothing in this Budget in relation to cancer research. If there is any problem relating to health, substantial sums should be provided, not only in this Budget but in every Budget, and I hope a headline can be set for future Budgets.

This is a matter for the Estimate, not for the Budget.

I will certainly deal with it on the Estimate.

It does not arise on the Budget debate.

I am not prepared to accept that the only step the Government can take in relation to cancer research is to increase the price of cigarettes in the Budget. I think it was wrong to increase the price of cigarettes, although I am a nonsmoker and a non-drinker. I think cigarettes have already taken the full brunt of taxation. I have said it, and I repeat, if the man down the country, or in the city, who is working hard all day long, cannot have a drink when he likes, or a smoke when he wants it, he has nothing else in life. I do not think he should be denied these things. They are the essentials of life. A smoke to some people is exactly the same as a meal to others. The price of cigarettes has certainly gone out of reach. If the Minister wants to advocate a nonsmoking policy, he ought to consider other ways and means besides vastly increasing the price of cigarettes. I certainly believe smoking may be a very serious menace to health. Probably I am with the Minister for Health on that, but, nevertheless, I feel that those who like a smoke ought not be deprived of that smoke by prohibitive charges for cigarettes. This Budget is depriving many of the poorer sections of the community of cigarettes. They were finding it difficult enough to get a smoke without the additional, and unnecessary, increased demands which this Budget most certainly imposes upon them.

Again, I have asked myself what real provision is contained in this Budget for pensions for retired civil servants. What provision is there for the pensions of retired Gardaí, retired Army officers and retired local authority workers? What provision is there for a special scheme for increasing the pensions of the widows of Gardaí to a proper rate?

That does not arise on the Budget debate.

I agree it does not arise. I am with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle 100 per cent on that, but I want to say in conclusion how sincerely disappointed I am at the absence of suitable provision for such pensions.

This is a Budget which, in my opinion, contains very little; and the people have had to pay dearly for the little it does contain. It is a Budget which will certainly lead to more unemployment. I am dissatisfied with the measures taken by the Government for providing more work for our people and for stemming the tide of emigration. I am sorry it must be admitted on all sides of the House that there are practically no accurate records in relation to emigration. That is exactly what the Government want, and wish for. That is why I say that there is nothing in this Budget to encourage our people to come back, and nothing to prevent them from going.

May I say, in conclusion, that it is a disappointment that this is not a farmers' Budget, as it has been christened. It is a Budget which does very little and one which causes very great hardship and inconvenience. I assure the Minister that the criticism of his Budget, offered by the Fine Gael Party, has been given not in a destructive way but in a very constructive and sincere way. We are all anxious to help. The responsibility of one is the responsibility of all. We are as anxious on this side of the House as anybody else can be to see that things are going right and economically well in this country. We may have different methods and different ways of doing those things. We may have different policies and different ideas, but, nevertheless, our efforts for the wellbeing of the country and all our people are genuine.

That is why I would ask the Minister to bear in mind the points which have been raised by members of this Party. I wish to assure him that they have been made in a constructive way and not in any way personally directed to the Minister, but believing honestly that whatever he can do is insufficient in so far as the vast majority of our people are concerned. I hope and trust the ideas he may have picked up from the trend of this debate will lead him in the year ahead to alter his policy on the many points indicated by the eloquence of the leading members of the Fine Gael Party, particularly Deputy Sweetman, who has very efficiently and very ably put forward his views in relation to this Budget. His views, so intelligently expressed, must carry a certain amount of influence and weight.

It is not easy for me to speak in a collected manner after the speech I have listened to from Deputy Flanagan. It was a most insincere speech.

Absolutely insincere. I have had to listen to Deputy Flanagan often before. The speech he made was, of course, a Fine Gael speech. He wanted me to give something more to everybody. He did not leave anybody out. He mentioned every single category he could mention—publicans, farmers, unemployed persons, widows, old age pensioners. They should all get more and I should take off taxation all round. Was that not a ridiculous speech for a Deputy to take one and a half hours to make? He could have said it all in a few minutes and have sat down. That would have been more effective because we would not have had to listen for one and a half hours. It is difficult to speak in a collected manner after listening to that sort of thing for one and a half hours.

Every Fine Gael speaker and every Labour speaker went on the same line. Every Fine Gael speaker and every Labour speaker in this debate that has gone on for the past four weeks— there was never such a long debate on a Budget—thought that we should give people more and thought that we should take off taxation. They know it cannot be done. That is why I say this whole campaign being carried on by Fine Gael and Labour is reeking with insincerity. They know very well that the money is not there, if you take off taxation and they know the money is not there to give more to everybody. Still, they go on making these points, hoping they may deceive some of the innocent people in the country. They should begin to realise that that day is over, that the people are beginning to see through them and that they will not succeed any more with that sort of insincerity, saying to everybody: "We will give you more and take less from you." It does not work. They should try to settle down to something more sensible.

There were many misstatements made in this debate. It would take me a long time to deal with them all. I cannot, I am afraid, deal with them all. All I can do is to deal with them in a general way and deal with as many as I can. First of all, I have a few notes I took when Deputy Sweetman was speaking. He said that the Economic Research Institute had made a forecast of the exports of manufactured articles on the industrial side for the coming year. It is not exactly true to say that they made a forecast. As a matter of fact, it is quite plain, in their own words, that they got returns from the various manufacturers and various industrialists and, they based their review, as they called it, on the figures they got from these people. We have experience that people in business are not very optimistic about the future, as a rule, and things may turn out better than they have stated. I hope they will.

As I am on this review by these people with regard to various industries, I might quote for Deputy Flanagan's information, their views on the textile and clothing industries. These figures are based on the figures supplied by people engaged in textiles and clothing. I want to say that for the present year, whereas the forecast for all industry is a seven per cent increase in production, the forecast for textiles and clothing is nine per cent, which is better than the average. The forecast is a two per cent increase in exports but for the textiles and clothing the forecast is a 12 per cent increase in exports. So that, actually, when you go through the various headings into which industry is divided, in this review, you will find that textiles and clothing will do better this year, according to the returns made by those engaged in textiles and clothing, than many of the other groups, anyway. There may be some who will do better but textiles and clothing will certainly do better than the average.

Deputy Sweetman and other Deputies on the Fine Gael side also said that when I came in with my first Budget, I talked about making savings in the Civil Service, which I did. At that time, 1957, I should like to remind Deputies, I actually did make a saving of £250,000 in the first year. The total pay for civil servants in that financial year was less by £250,000 than in the year before. As years went on, it was not possible to maintain that. Because of the great expansion in many lines. I felt I could not resist the pressure of other Ministers to provide more staffs for their various Departments.

One of the biggest increases in this year as compared with last year is in technicians and telephonists for the very big expansion in the telephone service. It is true, of course, as we all know, that there are many people waiting for a long time for a telephone but, at the same time, we must remember that there are more telephones being installed than for years back and, in particular, we must remember that in order to meet this very big expansion in the telephone system, main lines and branch lines have to be laid and, for that reason, there are many more people employed by the Post Office than there were before.

There are also, of course, expansions taking place in other Departments, like the Department of Agriculture, for instance, which is bringing in some extra schemes such as the scheme for the elimination of brucellosis in milch cows and the in-calf heifer scheme.

I mentioned last year, by the way, at Budget time, that the turnover tax would be a tax that would cost very little to administer. I said that I expected it would cost not more than one per cent of the yield. That has proved to be true. It is not costing more than one per cent and the number of staff on that particular tax has not been excessive but, of course, there was some staff needed for it. There are other big expansions also in the Department of Local Government, in town planning and road safety. In school buildings too, there are more staff employed; and in drainage and forestry. There is a necessity for the increase in staff in these cases and I have not been able to see how we can avoid increasing the staffs as we have.

Deputy Sweetman also talked about whether we thought it safe to rely on foreign capital inflow as a means of financing our trade deficit. The financing of the deficit is not absolutely dependent on foreign capital inflow. There are other sources also and, I quite agree with Deputy Sweetman, it would be wrong to rely on this capital indefinitely because, naturally, the inflow of capital might reduce or might fall off completely and the capital might be repatriated and, therefore, we would lose it.

Much of this foreign capital coming in is in the form of subscriptions to National Loans or investments in industry here or, perhaps, in some cases, purchase of stocks and shares on the stock exchange and there is a very small proportion of it—Deputy Sweetman mentioned it—invested in land or property.

As a Government, we are not complacent about this deficit in the balance of trade. We are watching it very carefully. I do not think there is any great danger to be feared at the moment or, indeed, for some time to come. I said in my Budget Statement that I anticipated a bigger deficit this year than last year but that I thought we could face that, meet it with the resources at our disposal. This will be the highest year. Really, I cannot say that yet but there is what I would call a hump at the moment and whether we are at the top or not I do not know. I do know, though, that when we have developed our resources, built up our production and our exports to a high level, we might then be able to rely on our savings and so on for a reduction in the deficit of our balance of trade which will gradually, I hope, come about. It is, in my opinion, safe on that basis to use our capital inflow rather than pile up external savings.

Deputy Sweetman repeated Senator Dooge's jibe that we had changed to gross national produce as a basis to minimise the weight of taxation. He said we had changed from national income to GNP as a basis for getting the percentage of expenditure. Of course, I agree with Deputy Sweetman that the percentage would be lower on GNP than on national income but we had no intention of changing for the reasons suggested by Senator Dooge or Deputy Sweetman: we did it because we were anxious to be able to compare our position with that of other countries.

In other countries the comparison is made on GNP. I have here figures for such countries, complied from material supplied by OECD in their annual review tables for 1963-64. I have also figures from the same source on national accounts for 1960-61. These tables go to show, taking central and local taxation together, the percentage of gross GNP in various countries. If Deputies care to examine the tables, they will find we occupy a very favourable position. As a matter of fact, there are 11 countries in Europe higher than we are and only two below us in more favourable positions —Switzerland and Portugal.

In this table, the Irish figure is 22.30 per cent. The British figure is 30.3 per cent and the highest is in respect of West Germany, 35.3 per cent. The lowest is Portugal, 18.8 per cent. Nobody can deny these figures show us in a most favourable light. Another publication from OECD is called Ireland and the copy I have is for March, 1964. It has this to say about our position:

but the level of public expenditure in relation to GNP is still relatively low. It is expected to rise somewhat during the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

That is all right. We agree with that.

I shall now deal with general points made by a number of Deputies. One thing I always notice, about Fine Gael in particular, is that they try to give the impression to the Dáil and the country that the cost of living has always increased under Fianna Fáil and that it did not do so under Coalition Governments. That is not true. I have had to make that correction here on winding up the Budget debate every year since I became Minister for Finance, but I am sorry to say it has not had much effect on Fine Gael speakers because they still stick to their faith—which they are bound to believe, though they do not understand it—that Fine Gael have always kept down the cost of living and Fianna Fáil have always put it up. If anybody looks at the publication issued with the Budget, they will find that from February, 1954, to February, 1957, the cost of living went up by 9 per cent. They were three years of Coalition Government. From February, 1957, to February, 1964, it went up 22 per cent. They were seven years of Fianna Fáil Government.

These figures mean that the average annual increase for the three Coalition years was 3 per cent exactly and for the seven years of Fianna Fáil, three and one-seventh. It is as well to mention these figures, though we, as has been pointed out by Opposition speakers as well as our own, abolished the food subsidies in 1957 and put on the turnover tax in 1963. Despite the abolition of the subsidies and the imposition of the turnover tax, our record as far as the cost of living goes is not any worse than that of the Coalition. Would there be any hope the Coalition Parties would keep that in mind for future reference?

Let us get back to OECD on this matter. There is a table on price index changes in respect of a number of European countries for 1962-63. Italy heads the list with an increase of 7.5 per cent in the cost of living. Ninth in the list is Ireland with 2.6 per cent and there are only two below us with more favourable records in relation to the cost of living. Nine European countries had a higher cost of living increase. That is not a bad record. It is a thing we should be proud of but it is too much to expect the Fine Gael Party to be proud of it while the Fianna Fáil Party are in power.

Deputy McGilligan, in a fairly extensive speech, was very positive in his reference to the cost of living. He said we had deliberately raised the price of drink and tobacco because it did not count in the cost of living index. I said it does; he said it does not. I said it does; he said it does not. I said again it does, and again he said it does not. I stopped there because we could not go on like that all night. If Deputy McGilligan would look at the report of the debate today, it might enlighten him.

The Irish Trade Journal for December, 1963, gives, on page 235, tables on the consumer price index and deals with the mid-November, 1963 rise. As Deputies will remember, that was the one that came after the turnover tax. There was an increase of 4.9 points, roughly about three per cent. It gives the items. Food accounted for an increase of 1.5 points. Sundries accounted for 1.88, so sundries put the cost of living up more than did food on that occasion. We come down, then, to analyse sundries. The increase was 1.88 points and of that, 1.18 was in respect of drink and tobacco. If McGilligan had stopped saying that they do not count and I had stopped saying that they do, it might have become obvious to Deputy McGilligan that he was wrong.

The Deputy said that Fianna Fáil took drink off the index in 1947. That is true because at that time we were aiming at what is called an essential figure for the cost of living. The other Government were in from 1948 to 1951, but they left it like that. When we came back and things looked more settled after the war, we again put drink and tobacco into the figure. Therefore, if Fianna Fáil took it out, Fianna Fáil put it in again. Deputy McGilligan was Minister for Finance for three years in the meantime and he did not interfere with the figure.

Deputy McGilligan went on to endeavour to prove that this Government were putting on more taxes than were absolutely necessary. I do not know why he should think the Fianna Fáil Government take a sadistic satisfaction in taking taxes from the people. That was the impression he tried to give. In order to prove his contention, he took the financial accounts to 31st March, 1963, and showed that there was a balance of £2,750,000 in the Exchequer. He wanted to know why he did not use that. He said that when he was Minister for Finance from 1948 to 1951, he had intended to take that over, but, typically, he did not do it. He is always talking about doing things, but he very seldom does them.

As a matter of fact, I was accused in this House for taking that money. I did take it. Deputy McGilligan did not know that, evidently. I took £2 million of that £2,750,000. When he asked what the balance was at the end of March, 1964, I said less than £100,000 which, I believe is correct. Deputies may ask what became of the other £750,000. Roughly £500,000 belongs to the Post Office. In my Budget speech this year, I said I was not sure if the Post Office would be able to meet their expenditure by their increased charges, but if they were not, there was a balance they could draw on. That is where it will probably go this year. Deputy McGilligan will be pleased to know there is nothing left in the kitty he can complain about in the future. There was another £200,000 belonging to the Road Fund. I can say with a certain amount of satisfaction that I never took anything out of the Road Fund and I do not intend to do it now. Other Ministers can do that if they like. I did not do it and I will not do it now.

Deputy McGilligan mentioned other sums. I will not deal with them now because it is tedious to deal in detail with a speech like that. He tried to give the impression there was money there and I was not using it. He mentioned that last year all the amounts the Departments had surrendered at the end of the year as unspent amounted to £4 million or £5 million. I am not sure if that is correct. Whether it is or not, that was not money. There was never any money paid against that out of the Exchequer and neither were there taxes raised to pay for that. It was just a saving. It was, of course, taken into account in framing the Budget for 1963-64.

I do not know why Deputy McGilligan and some other members of Fine Gael should take the attitude that we are taking too much money, that we are too conservative about our finances and are not taking risks and that this thing about balancing a Budget was out of date. I am ashamed to say that I did not balance my Budget. In the last two years there was a deficit because I did not ask for sufficient money to balance the Budget.

At that time Deputy McGilligan went on to talk about other matters. I do not object to a severe critic, but when a Deputy comes in as uninformed as Deputy McGilligan was and spends a long time making a case on a false basis, I think we are entitled to object that a speech of that kind should be made by a Deputy who came in without reading what was in the Budget and criticised me on false premises. I have never known Deputy McGilligan to make a constructive suggestion of any kind, even when he was a Minister. I do not expect to get it from him now.

Another thing I object to very strongly is this. He referred to the OECD report on conditions in this country. He said these figures were supplied by the Departments and the Government and, therefore, we need not pay any attention to them. He ventured to suggest that the comments were even written by officials on this side. He said he would wager that we supplied not merely the alleged facts but most of the commentary. That is absolutely wrong. The report is drafted by OECD, by the Secretariate themselves. They ask for figures here which are, of course, supplied to everybody as well as to OECD. Most of them are supplied in tables to the Dáil and to the public. These figures are supplied to OECD but they do not accept them blindly. They send a delegation over here to examine the position on the spot. They make their own assessment. When they go back they write their report. That report is subject to the Committee, which is composed of 20 members from 20 different countries. There is no use saying the OECD is an uncritical body which puts down what we ask them to.

The reason I object to that is this. Everybody knows the progress we have made for the past few years is to a great extent due to the confidence the people have in the future. They have great confidence that we are going to succeed. They are working hard, putting all they can into it. People are investing money here, giving work here and prepared to stay at home and not go to England or anywhere else. A great deal of that is based on confidence in the future. Deputy McGilligan tries to kill that confidence. I have no hesitation in saying he is prepared to kill that confidence owing to his insane hatred of Fianna Fáil Governments. Any man who would try to injure the economy in order to bring a Government down—you know the type he is and you know he must be imbued with very strong and, indeed, very undesirable feelings to do a thing like that.

The Minister should be well aware of that fact.

I am well aware that what I am saying is true.

The Minister is a very good judge of his own conduct.

I have never done a thing like that, just the same.

Does the Minister remember the three balls?

What three balls?

The three pawnbroking balls.

The Coalition put the country in pawn. You are talking about the three balls—Fine Gael, Labour and Clann na Talmhan —in the first Coalition.

Now that the Deputy has been a bit personal——

I do not mean the Minister himself; I mean the Fianna Fáil Government.

In his speech, Deputy Sweetman made a reference which was absolutely untrue—that I thought it was good economy at one time to slaughter the calves in this country. Now, that accusation was never made that I did not say back to Fine Gael that I had to do it because the British Government adopted the suggestion made by Fine Gael to put a tax on our cattle and a quota as well. We could not get rid of our cattle on that quota and we had to do something, therefore, to get rid of our calves. Let Fine Gael bear the blame now for that, for we will not take the blame for it.

One of the points made by practically every Fine Gael speaker was that 71,000 jobs had gone since Fianna Fáil came into office. That is absolutely incorrect but, when one Fine Gael speaker mentions a figure like that, every Fine Gael speaker mentions it. They are like parrots; it does not matter if the figure is right or wrong. In fact, if it were right, they would not go on quoting it; they would get suspicious of it. But, if it is wrong, they go on quoting it.

They make the excuse that in 1957 the position was such and such. If you look at Table 45—I am sure Fine Gael did not look at it because they were trying to find out what mischief they could do with these tables—you will find that the heading is "April". Now is it fair? Would any right-minded person say that the reduction from April, 1956, to April, 1957, should be put down to Fianna Fáil? But that is what they have done.

I did not. I used the figure 1,162.

Practically every Fine Gael speaker adopted the same line. Deputy Dillon started it and every Fine Gael speaker who followed him said 71,000 had lost their employment. Let us deal now with the figures. The Government before us came in round April, 1954, or near enough to April to accept the figure. During the period from April, 1954, to April, 1957, the employment, as they call it—I shall deal with that, too—went down by 79,000 in three years. It was a colossal figure and it is only a Coalition who could have done that. There is no doubt about that.

The Minister should try his subtraction again. It is wrong.

April. 1954, to April, 1957—1,163 April, 1954.

1,162 I have.

I have 1,163—total labour force, total at work. The Deputy wants to put in the unemployed. Oh, no. If the Deputy quotes the unemployed to his credit, then he gets away with it against us because the unemployment is so high. Total at work 1,162; subtract from that 1,084 and you get 79; 79,000 people, they say, went out of employment during those three years.

Now, I will soften that for them. In these figures they always state the number in work in non-agricultural employment and the number engaged in agricultural employment because the people in Statistics know that a great many people in agriculture at that time were not exactly employed; they were engaged. They were not employed because they hardly did a day's work in the week. We will take the figure now that they are quoting against us. They say 79,000. Now, from April 1957 to April 1963 —we have not got 1964, of course— the number went from 1,084 to 1,052, 32,000 in six years against 79,000 in three years. We are not doing too badly at all.

The real point is, of course, that in the past three years—1960 to 1963— the number was practically static. It went down 3,000 but in the last year it went up 1,000, so the trend was very good. First of all, the number went down to practically nil three years ago and last year, for the first time, it began to go upwards, that is, the number of people employed both in agriculture and in non-agricultural occupations. We have certainly a better record there than the Coalition Government had. It might be as well to have a look at that 32,000 that it went down in our time. It was due to the fact that 54,000 left agriculture in that time but there was an increase of 22,000 in non-agricultural employment and the net result, therefore, was a loss of 32,000.

I should like to put an argument to Fine Gael with regard to this employment that has gone and the employment they have got in mind. If a man had been engaged in agriculture between 1964 and 1957, he would have stayed in it; he would not have left it. The fact is there were several people in the country at that time who had no job of any kind. They had no way of living. I told a story before— I make no apology for repeating it because I know every rural Deputy will realise that I am telling what is absolutely true—about the situation where I live. I do not live far from Dublin. Twenty years ago, if I wanted extra men to do a job, they were always available. I remember when we used to thresh. When the threshing machine arrived, there would be at least 30 men following it looking for a job. You would pity the poor fellows. I could not take them all on. I might take maybe half along with the men I had and the others would stand there for about two hours hoping something would happen, hoping someone would get sick, or something, and another man would be taken on. In the past three or four years, there has not been so much as one man coming to look for a job at threshing time or anything else. That is the pattern all over the country. That population that had nothing to do, that were under-employed, have all disappeared; some have got jobs in industry and some, I suppose, have emigrated. There is no more under-employment of that kind, in my part of the country anyhow. I do not profess to speak for the congested districts where small farmers and their families have to look outside for employment.

It is often said that the trend in agriculture applies not only to this country but to other countries as well. I have here a table—I think it is issued by OECD, though I do not vouch for that at the moment—in which the changing percentages are shown from 1960 to 1962, that is, the percentage engaged in agriculture as a percentage of the whole. The table shows a reduction in the number engaged in agriculture in every country. Italy is the highest with 9.1 per cent; Ireland is seventh in the list with 6.1 per cent. There are only two below her, Norway and Germany; they lost a lower proportion of their agricultural workers.

As far as the figure for agriculture is concerned, this Government have certainly tried to help. They have increased employment in many ways through afforestation, turf production, arterial drainage and so on. Employment in all these has been increased since this Government came in. We have also done our best to promote industries in the rural areas to absorb those who find it hard to get employment on the land. Another point I should like to make in this connection is that a number of people must have been underemployed on the land when we consider that, during the past seven years, the output from agriculture, although there are 50,000 fewer people engaged on the land according to the statistics, has gone up by £30 million and the volume has increased by ten per cent. So it is very obvious that a great number of people were under-employed at the time. There are now sufficient people left to carry on employment in agriculture, and sufficient to give increased production from the land.

The next point I want to deal with is help for the farmers. There was a lot of discussion on this, and there were various points of view from the Opposition. Of course, a number of Fine Gael speakers, trying to get the farmers' vote, I suppose, said we have not done enough. That is a common complaint from Fine Gael: we have not done enough, and we are charging too much. Some speakers from the Labour benches said we had done too much for the farmers, and not enough for other sections of the community.

As I explained in my Budget speech, the reason we did this was, first, that the farmers had fallen a bit behind the other members of the community in their increased incomes. The workers generally had got increases of 50 per cent in their earnings between 1957 and 1964. That was before the 12 per cent came in. I shall deal with the 12 per cent separately. The farmers had got an increase of between 20 and 30 per cent only, and we thought it well to try to redress that difference by giving them as much as we could afford in the Budget. I do not think any fair-minded Deputy, even on the Fine Gael side of the House, would say we could afford to give more, because what we did give, and what it cost, was resisted by Fine Gael when they voted against the various taxes we proposed to put on.

As I say, that was the first reason: as a matter of justice to give the farmers somewhat better incomes. Secondly, we tried to arrange it in such a way that it would increase production. By giving an increase in the price of milk, we hoped to encourage the farmers to go more into milk and to keep more cows. We had a reason for that, too. In our Second Programme, we aim at a 50 per cent increase in the number of cows over the ten years. We thought that by giving this increase in the price of milk, together with the heifer scheme already announced, we would encourage the farmers to increase their herds. The same would apply in the case of pigs. We gave an increased price for pigs to encourage the farmers to keep more pigs. If we achieve our objective in that respect, and if the farmers keep more cows and more pigs, and have a bigger production, not only the farmers themselves will benefit, but the general community will also benefit.

I mentioned the industrial wage. It went up in the period 1956 to 1963 from 124/6d. to 190/2d. according to this table, an increase of 65/8d which is over 50 per cent. That is an average. At the same time, the cost of living went up by 22 per cent. Some got more and some got less, but on average, the worker got a 50 per cent increase in his wage. He lost 22 per cent by the increased cost of living so, in the net, he is almost 30 per cent better off. Of course, that is before the 12 per cent. That should prove to men like Deputy Tully that the Government are anxious to see that wages are increased wherever possible.

The Labour Party were rather peeved because the Government got credit for giving the 12 per cent, and during the Cork and Kildare by-elections, they went to great pains to prove that the Government were not responsible for it, although they claimed credit for it. I think we can claim credit for it in this way. We made the conditions possible where increased wages could be given. I am not saying 12 per cent was the optimum, but we did create conditions where an increase in wages could be considered. Having considered it, the employers and the trade unions between them decided on 12 per cent. We were very glad to see that agreement, because we thought it would lead to industrial peace, and we hope it will lead to industrial peace for the next two and a half years.

As I say, the Labour Party went to great pains to prove the Government had nothing to do with it. I do not think they can say at the same time that the Government brought in the 12 per cent to win the two by-elections. They will have to have it one way or the other. If they say the Government did this to win the two by-elections, they cannot say we did not do it, and if they say we did not do it, they cannot accuse us of having done it in order to win the two by-elections. We may be blamed for following a policy during the past six or seven years which has improved conditions, but that policy was approved by a great percentage of the people of Cork and Kildare who voted for our candidates. They did what they thought was right.

I understand the agricultural wage is to be increased today by 15/-. I was looking at the agricultural wage to see how it fared during those years. Before we came into office it was 96/9d.—that was the minimum wage, the lowest wage—and it was 127/9d in 1963. Now there is an increase of 15/-. That means that the agricultural wage has increased by 48 per cent which is not too far behind the increase in the industrial wage. I am not saying the present minimum agricultural wage of £7 2s. 9d. is a princely wage, but it is better than it was, and in that way it is welcome.

Coming back to the 12 per cent again, a point was made by some Labour Deputies, while saying the Government had nothing to do with it, that the Taoiseach tried to make it eight per cent. I want to deal with that eight per cent. The Taoiseach may have suggested eight per cent and, if he did, I must say I would be with him in doing that, because as we all know, from the economics of these matters, with increased production it is safe to give an increase in wages. It is always assumed with increased consumption that there is also increased productivity, and it appears to be possible to give increased wages. What happens is that many industries are able to carry the wage increase and need not increase prices. In fact, some can reduce prices even though they are paying the increased wage. However, some must increase prices.

If we could reach the point where the increase in prices was equalled by the reduction in prices, that would be the optimum figure to be given. The wage-earner would be as well off because there would be no increase in price all round. He would get his increase in wages and he would be just as well off and, of course, everybody else in the community—those living on fixed incomes, and so on— would be much better off because they would not have to meet an increase in prices. On that basis, if the Taoiseach was right—as he probably was—in saying that about eight per cent was the optimum figure, it is a great pity it was not adopted because the wage-earners would be just as well off and every other member of the community would be better off. I have no idea at this moment what the proper figure was—it is an arguable point—but the fact that the Taoiseach, or I or anybody else could suggest a lower figure than what was actually given does not mean that we want to deprive the worker of what was due to be given. It means it is a better figure all round and that he and everybody else would be better off if it were adopted.

National income was referred to by many speakers. A lot of Fine Gael Deputies purported to believe that there was no improvement in the economy of this country, that things were not a bit better than they were six or seven years ago. There is no doubt about it but that they must be better. There are, I am sure, many people who are not any better off than they were and maybe there are a lot of people who are a lot better off— more than is necessary—but, generally, more people must be better off because the national income in the six years from 1957 to 1963 went up by £222 million. That is a huge figure. During the years of the Coalition it went up £17 million. Actually, what happened in the past six years was that every six months the national income increased by as much as was done by the Coalition in their three years. Therefore, we have repeated that 12 times—every six months for the six years. That is the figure for 1963: I do not know what the 1964 figure is yet.

Then we come on to unemployment and emigration. There is no use in accusing the Government of being complacent in these matters. We certainly have been very troubled about the high level of unemployment. It is better, we argue, naturally, than it was seven years ago but certainly it is not nearly good enough and we are not at all satisfied with the figure.

I think nobody can deny that this Government have done everything they possibly could to build up industries in this country. One of the objects of building up these industries was to give more employment. We have succeeded to a certain extent.

Employment in industry and non-agricultural employment generally is going up by about 8,000 a year. It is not much but it is the best we have been able to do.

As I said already, in the past three years industry has been absorbing the number who leave the rural districts. We had that sort of equation there for three years, that we were not losing or gaining employment, but the figure taken for April, 1963, showed for the first time that there was an increase in employment and that was very welcome indeed. We only hope that the figure will increase and that we shall get better results as time goes on.

I have not got it here but if Deputies will look at the Red Book they will find, before the Tables, a Table dealing with those in insurable employment. They will find that, according to the stamps sold, the number of people in insurable employment is also going up during the past three or four years.

The best figure I think we have got from our Statistics Office is that in the past three years the population increased by 25,000. That is a very welcome change. I suppose that everybody interested in this country before we got our own Government and every Government here and, I suppose, Opposition since that, were looking forward to the day when we would begin to build our population again. Now we are beginning: I hope it will last. There was a setback, as Deputies have mentioned, in the February, 1964, figure inasmuch as it was not as good as the February, 1963 figure. There are explanations for that. Maybe they do not give a full explanation of that figure. There is no doubt but that in January-February, 1962, a lot of people did not go back to Britain to building, and so on, as work had not started because of the very bad weather but they went back, as usual, this January. That may have made a difference of a few thousands: I am sure it did.

Another thing was said by a lot of speakers on the Fine Gael benches and I think on the Labour side, too. The last speaker for Fine Gael, Deputy O. J. Flanagan, made the case very strongly and a number of Deputies before him made the same case that we taxed drink beyond the capacity of the worker, and so on. I think I mentioned in my Budget speech that the consumption of spirits in this country last year was the highest for over 40 years and that the consumption of beer was also higher than it had been for many years. It is the highest —as far as my Table went back—I cannot say for how many years but my Table went back 12 years. There is no use, therefore, in saying that we have taxed these two commodities, beer and spirits, off the market.

Tax is not the whole story in connection with these commodities. Take the pint of stout for ten years—we will take a ten-year period. The price of a pint of stout in a Dublin public house went up by 10d. and duty went up by 3d. Therefore, for the 10d. increase in the price of a pint of stout in those ten years, only 3d. was taken for the revenue. The story is even more striking for a glass of whiskey which went up by 1/4d. in that time but revenue got only about 1/4d. : it went up more than 1/3d., apart from revenue altogether.

The only commodity where duty would appear to have taken much nearer to the whole increase in price is in the case of cigarettes. The price of 20 standard cigarettes went up by 1/8d. in that time and the duty taken was 1/1¾d., so we got a fair share of the duty as far as cigarettes are concerned.

A number of Fine Gael Deputies, including Deputy Sweetman, I think, said the Budget is inflationary. Well, one thing which I think is fairly certain is that if Fine Gael Deputies got their way and are sincere—I suppose they are—when they say we should not put an extra tax on beer, petrol or cigarettes—because that is how they voted on the Budget—and, at the same time, spend the money we shall spend —because they have not objected to that—then, if we could not get that money by taxation we would have to borrow the amount to pay for all these various services that are provided and that would certainly be inflationary.

If Fianna Fáil were to bring in schemes of free credit for farmers and do all these various things they talk about and say they are going to do, there would be more inflation. For instance, I saw in to-day's Irish Press that Deputy MacEoin yesterday said that if Fine Gael came in, they would do much better for farmers and for everybody in regard to credit. But that would cost many millions. Deputy Declan Costello said that we were not spending half enough money on education. These are only two instances in to-day's papers. If Fine Gael generally were to get their way and spend more on education, on rates and free credit and so on, inflation would be much worse than it is. It is well we have a Fianna Fáil Government to prevent the inflationary policy of Fine Gael being put into effect.

It was a common remark for Deputies to make on the other side that there was nothing in the Budget for such-and-such. That was a common expression from Fine Gael and Labour speakers—nothing in it for old age pensioners, or for health services and that sort of thing. I must have explained when the Vote on Account was being taken that the Book of Estimates itself showed many millions of an increase over last year. There is a very high increase for Education, a fairly big increase for Health; a very big increase for Agriculture and Social Welfare and so on. All these were in the Book of Estimates. If we do not get more intelligent discussion of these things, the Minister for Finance will be driven to issue a Book of Estimates without any increase and bring it all in on the Budget, bring in increases of £25 million or £30 million and then Deputies will be able to see it. At the moment, apparently, they do not go to the Book of Estimates to see what is being done.

A very common criticism was that we are not doing enough for social services in the wide sense of Social Welfare, Health and Education, taking the three together. One would imagine, on hearing some Deputies opposite, that we had done nothing for these services in our seven years of office. In 1956-57, the amount provided for those three services was £43 million; this year, it is almost £73 million, practically £30 million more, or an increase of 70 per cent in the past seven years. We are also accused of not doing anything to build up the economy and we are attacked very strongly for not doing something to increase production, finding more work for people and so on. For the economic services, Agriculture, Industry and Commerce, Fisheries and Forestry, the estimate in 1956-57 was £19 million; this year it is £47 million. It is up by 148 per cent, a very big increase.

I need go no further except to say that there was a lot of talk to the effect that we should have done more for pensioners. The estimate there has gone from £11 million to £19.7 million, that is, 80 per cent up on 1957. That was a very good increase and it is very hard to afford more for pensioners. I am sorry we cannot do more for them but I do not see how we could do it this year in any case.

I think there is a certain amount of misunderstanding about butter. I heard one Deputy say—a Labour Deputy, I think—that we were taxing the home consumers of butter in order to sell butter cheaper to John Bull. That is the usual type of remark. In fact, we are not. The remark was also made that consumption of butter was going down because of the price and it was said that Irish butter could be bought in Britain for 2/6 per lb. while we are paying 4/9 for it. Let us take consumption first and we find that over the past three years, 1961, 1962 and 1963 consumption has gone up from 662,000 cwts to 702,000 cwts, or by 40,000 cwts; so, consumption is going up.

State aid this year for milk production is £9 million. Among other things, that enables the creameries to pay 4d per gallon on milk received by them. That will cost £5.5 million. If we consume the same amount of butter next year as we did last year, that will cost £3 million so that actually we are contributing £3 million from the taxpayers to keep the price of Irish butter down. If we did nothing about Irish butter and said the farmers must get so much for their milk and the consumers must pay it, the price of butter based on that price of milk, which the consumer would have to pay would be about 9¼d more. They would be paying 5/- instead of 4/9.

It was also said that butter is selling in England at 2/6 per lb. That is not true. In fact, for some months back, the price has been fairly steady at about 3/11 or 4/-. English butter is 1d more; Danish butter is the same as ours; New Zealand is about 5d behind us and so is Australian butter. We are doing fairly well. The quality of our butter is good and we are getting a good price for it in England as English prices go. The difference between what the English consumer and the home consumer pay for it is 9d and not 2/6 as we were given to understand by some Opposition speakers.

Some Deputies complained that we had not control of credit here. That is not altogether true. It can be argued that we have not full control. Under the circumstances, I do not think any country can be said to have full control of credit at present. The measures for backing the Irish legal tender note were laid down in our own legislation. It was done by this Oireachtas and if they are not satisfactory, we have only ourselves to blame. They were intended to assist the national interest and there is no evidence, as far as I can see, that they do not assist it.

The Central Bank has the statutory obligation of seeing that—I quote—"in what pertains to the control of credit the predominant aim is the welfare of the people as a whole". That is their direction—to look after the people as a whole. The Central Bank acts as a lender of last resort by rediscounting Exchequer Bills and so on. There is no evidence I can see of any shortage of credit for useful national projects. Many times I have got letters from farmers dealing with the Credit Corporation and sometimes —in at least a few cases—from people trying to borrow from joint stock banks. Without hesitation, I have always asked the Agricultural Credit Corporation if this person had been turned down and if they were prepared to reconsider it. I have never asked for a report but I usually get enough information to satisfy me that they had given the matter every consideration and had refused in the end. The percentage of loans made by the Agricultural Credit Corporation tends to show that they are by no means restrictive in their present policy.

As regards the joint stock banks, I have got information on a few occasions which convinced me that there was a case for rejecting the application. Perhaps some would grant it and some might not but at least there was a case for rejecting it.

I do not think it could be said that there is any shortage of credit in this country. People of course have a rather strange idea about what they call credit control. They do not mean what would be conveyed by the ordinary English meaning of that, that we should be more particular about whom we should lend money to; they have in mind that money should be lent to everybody. That could not be done because if money were lent too liberally, it would also lead to inflation, about which some speakers were afraid, and lead to difficulty as far as the balance of trade is concerned. The allegation is not true, either, that money from this country is going to bolster up British industry. On the contrary, any Deputy who has studied the figures will see that there has been little reduction in assets in the past few years and an inflow of capital. I suppose a Member of Parliament speaking in the British Parliament could attack the Chancellor of the Exchequer for allowing English money to bolster up Irish money because that is what is happening.

When there is a change in the bank rate in England, we are not compelled to follow suit except that our good sense tells us to do it. Any Deputy must know that if the bank rate goes up in England, say from five per cent to six per cent, the deposit rate also goes up. If we do not raise our deposit rate here, we lose a lot of our money as it goes into the English banks on deposit and we have no got the use of it. Of course we depend on the banks here and if deposits go down, it will be bad for the country. Therefore, banks must put the interest in order to increase the deposit rate. In the same way, if they bring down the interest in England, they must bring it down here; otherwise people will go to England for money and not to the Irish banks.

In the ordinary way of trade the Irish banks must take note of the fact that the rate of interest is changed in England and must do something to suit their own business. It must be said that where the bank rate in England is changed by one point, the banks here change it by half a point. In other words, if it goes up by one point in England, it goes up by half a point here and similarly, if it goes down a point in England, it goes down half a point here. It is always hovering in or around the English rate. The half per cent increase in interest which the borrower has to pay is not nearly so important as the fact that the bank has the money to give him: in other words, that it can give him the credit.

The Central Bank has certain powers that it has not been exercising but which it can exercise, if necessary. For instance, if the banks here were sending too much money out of the country for investment in England or somewhere else and not keeping a sufficient proportion for investment here, the Central Bank could deal with them under section 50 of the 1942 Act. They could tell the joint stock banks to issue more domestic credit or they would reduce the ratio of external to internal assets. If they do not, the Central Bank can deal with them. They have sufficient power at the moment to deal with matters of this sort. If it is necessary at any time to change the powers, that can be done.

I do not think there was a speaker either from Fine Gael or Labour who did not suggest some increased expenditure somewhere or other. I do not mind that very much. I suppose there is hardly a Minister or a member from my own Party who would not suggest that to me, but at the same time my Party and my colleagues in the Government would see that if we spend more we will have to find money to pay for it. Of course Fine Gael and Labour have the great advantage that they need not pay. In fact, they will condemn everything we put on.

£100,000 without taxation.

Deputy Corish said they were not afraid of taxation and mentioned certain taxes which we imposed last year, such as corporation profits tax and the fact that we called on depositors to declare their deposits and certain things like that, and said they had voted for those. Of course they cannot be repeated—that is the point —and we had to come back to the traditional taxes of tobacco, beer and cigarettes, and the Labour Party as well as the Fine Gael Party voted against these three taxes. Deputy Corish in advocating these other ways of raising taxation was only giving me, as Minister for Finance, an opportunity of looking for a very small amount. It would be no use at all in connection with a Budget of this kind. He suggested, for instance, that an increase of capital on the Stock Exchange, and on property, and gains of that kind, should be taxed. That would require careful consideration to see whether we could do it or not and I do not think there is very much to be got out of it, if we did.

I was looking over previous years and I found that the Labour Party— Fine Gael of course always vote against us; I need not say anything against them because it is a clean sheet every time—have complained that we accuse them of not helping in taxation but that they were prepared to vote for certain taxes. If you take tobacco, they voted against increased taxation on tobacco in 1959, 1960, 1961 and 1962. We put a tax on tobacco in those four Budgets. The only time they voted for a tax on tobacco was in 1956. So there is that difference. They voted against income tax in 1952 when we were in Government and on all these occasions they voted against a tax on petrol, except in 1956, when there was a different Government there. Really it is a matter of who is in Government which decides the Labour Party as to whether they will vote against a tax on tobacco, beer, oils and so on. There was a very hefty increase in 1956 on tobacco when 5d. was put on the 20 cigarettes and I might say that as far as the poor man's plug was concerned, it did not get the concession which we gave. There was an increase of 6d. on petrol at that time and the Labour Party voted for that, too.

I should like to quote Deputy Sweetman who was Minister at that time. I said something the same this time but it did not influence the Labour Party. He said:

I am taxing expenditure rather than income and I am hoping in this way not only to maintain production but to stimulate economy in regard to imports and a greater volume of personal saving.

I am all with Deputy Sweetman in that. The difference is this, of course, that although the Labour Party were with Deputy Sweetman in that in 1956, they are not with me in 1964 when I make the same sort of remark.

Did the Minister vote for it in 1956?

I do not think so but we do not make any bones about it. The point I am making is that Labour are influenced by who is in office, not by what the tax is. They are as mad as we are, if you like. Deputy Desmond, for instance, said he would agree to a tax on dances, if it were devoted entirely to old age pensions. He was very fastidious in his tax. He would only go as far as a tax on dances.

Reference has been made to the favourable impression of Fianna Fáil in improvements in social welfare benefits in preference to what Fine Gael and Labour did when they were in office. A speaker on our side made the point that we had done very much better as a Government than Labour and Fine Gael. There is no doubt about that. I think the people on the other side do not dispute that any longer. To take one example, they gave 2/6 to the old age pensioner in three years and we gave 13/6 in seven years, which is very much better treatment than was given by them. As regards social assistance people, they gave nothing and we gave a fairly good increase over those seven years. The Labour Party do not dispute that any longer but now what they say is we should do better still.

Deputy Corish was arguing we were in a position to do better than we were doing and that we were not giving as high a proportion of the national income as we should. The peculiar thing is that the Labour Party and, I think, Fine Gael, think we should do a whole lot better than they were able to do between 1954 and 1957. Of course, they are right. We have done better and we were able to do better. The point would appear to be going down to the people in the country, as evidenced in the by-elections. They are beginning to see that Fianna Fáil can do better and to see that Deputy Corish and his Party are very good advocates of the old age pensioner when they are in Opposition, but when they are in Government they are no good to him at all. The people are very well pleased to keep them in Opposition where they are doing such good work.

In conclusion I want to go back to some rather interesting points made by Deputy Sweetman. He said any Budget should deal with these five points satisfactorily: full employment, stable value of money, reasonable distribution of income, equilibrium in payments to foreign countries and utilisation of the country's resources. In respect of some of those points, I would say we did as well at the other Governments and in some, we did much better.

We have not reached full employment. We have reached a better position in employment and a better trend, and we have certainly done better in dealing with unemployment and with emigration. As regards the stable value of money, I did give figures here which showed that, as compared with other countries in Europe, we have done fairly well in the cost of living figure. Therefore, the value of money to the particular person has remained as well as could be expected as compared with other countries.

In regard to the reasonable distribution of income, we can claim we did better in that respect than the other Governments. We have done much better for social welfare beneficiaries and also for people who were never considered before such as the incapacitated who were not insured or covered in any other way. We have done what we could to distribute some of the money amongst those people.

You gave a good share of it to Singer.

We did not give any to Singer. As regards equilibrium in payments to foreign countries, we have not done too badly there. However, I am surprised Deputy Sweetman had the courage to mention that because there are two years outstanding that we should examine. In the year 1951, there was a deficit in the balance of payments of £61.6 million, which is the highest ever in the history of the country; and in 1955, it was £35.5 million, which is the second highest ever. Therefore, we can claim to have done better as far as that is concerned.

As regards the utilisation of the country's resources, the Coalition Government were increasing production by a ½ per cent. per annum. Now, for some years back, we have been increasing it by 4½ per cent. Therefore we are doing very much better in that regard. I hope I will not offend any Deputy by leaving any other points unanswered.

Question put, and a division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with the Order of the Dáil of 14th November, 1963, until 10.15 p.m. to-day.
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