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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 May 1964

Vol. 209 No. 8

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Intermediate Certificate Examination.

71.

asked the Minister for Education if he realises the grave inconvenience and interruption of curriculum which will be caused if the intermediate certificate examination is suspended; and what action he proposes to take to avoid such a situation.

72.

asked the Minister for Education if, in view of the grave concern caused by his announcement that the intermediate certificate examination may not be held this year and the great disappointment which this will cause to parents and students, he will arrange that the leaving certificate examination and the intermedite certificate examination be held this year at different dates, so as to ensure that both examinations will take place.

73.

Mr. Ryan

asked the Minister for Education what steps he will take to protect the educational and career interests of candidates for this year's intermediate certificate examination if the examination is not held.

With your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, I propose to take Questions Nos. 71, 72 and 73 together.

The issue concerned involves asking me to upset the decision of two separate and independent arbitrators, one for national and a second and later one for secondary teachers. It is implicit in this that I should decide unilaterally to widen the differential in the matter of salary between secondary and national teachers established by those two independent arbitrators. As I am not in a position to do this even if I so desired, it was necessary for me to contemplate the possibility of holding the Certificate Examinations without the co-operation of the members of the Association of Secondary Teachers.

When I announced that it might be necessary to abandon the holding of the Intermediate Certificate examination I had in mind that my Department with its own resources and with such outside help as was available to it could hope to carry through only the Leaving Certificate examination.

I did not state definitely that the Intermediate Certificate examination would not be held as I was and still am hoping that the other interests associated with secondary education would co-operate with me in the holding of the examination or that the Association of Secondary Teachers, even at a late hour, might see the impossibility of what they are seeking, being granted.

I am not speculating as to what may happen in the event of the Intermediate examination not being held and with your indulgence, a Cheann Comhairle, I appeal here and now to the Association of Secondary Teachers, for the sake of those children on whose behalf their members have expended so much labour and care, to withdraw the advice they have given. I would ask them to remember specially that a large number of pupils who take the Intermediate Certificate examination do not return to school.

While appreciating the problems which affect the Minister and without wishing to express any view on the issues involved, I take it the Minister appreciates the importance of indicating as early as possible to those concerned whether the examination will be held or not?

I appreciate the anxiety caused by the uncertainty and for that reason I have announced that the Leaving Certificate examination will be held. I should tell the House that the holding of these examinations without adequate outside help will involve diverting the staff of the Department away from other activities. It may involve the closing of the Museum and the National Library for a while to get the staff there. The Leaving Certificate Examination will be held, marked and the results given out in the normal way. I have no intention of standing by and allowing about 20,000 children to be disappointed after three or four years' study by not having an Intermediate Certificate examination. As I have already explained, I am not in a position to give what the teachers want. I should like to say for the sake of those in doubt that it is my intention that the Intermediate Certificate examination will be held and it is my belief that it will be held. I will not go further than that.

This is an unfortunate status dispute with the Minister. Would the Minister not agree that a quicker solution might not be provided if he would have discussions right away with the secondary teachers and find out how far they are prepared to get this matter finished? It is an unhappy position and the Minister has the sympathy of the entire House. But sitting down and talking to them will remove the atmosphere of long-distance discussions which has been going on for the past few months.

Would the Minister clarify two points? Before coming to his decision on the conciliation and arbitration award, did he offer to discuss the points at issue with the secretary of the teachers' organisation? Secondly, did the arbitrator, in considering the case of the national teachers, purport to establish a differential between them and the secondary teachers and, if so, was any representation invited or received from the Association of Secondary Teachers?

If the House will permit me, I should like to separate this idea of the examinations from the grievances. No matter what pressure the secondary teachers bring to bear on me, I cannot unilaterally or bilaterally in agreement with them, solve their grievances. The only action open to me at the moment is to hold the examination with whatever help I can get.

The grievances, which are a separate item from the children and their examination, are a matter with which I cannot deal at all. This matter is dealt with at independent arbitration. The function generally of the Government in relation to arbitration has been to accept the recommendations of the majority of the arbitration board. This is what the Government did. There is no room for intervention by a Minister in such a decision.

To explain what happened in detail, the national teachers have their own individual arbitration board. The secondary teachers have their own individual arbitration board. I did try to get a common arbitration scheme for the lot, which might have avoided a good deal of trouble, but I did not succeed in getting agreement. You have individual schemes and decisions are made. In the first case, it was a decision improving the position of the national teachers by increasing their salaries. Since this was the national teachers' arbitration scheme, the secondary teachers could not be dealt with in that scheme. Over the years, different arbitrators have decided awards to the national teachers by taking as a yardstick their relative position with the secondary teachers. This was done this time. There was no place in this scheme where the secondary teachers could come in. They had no rights, in this scheme. There was no change made in their salaries. It was the national teachers' salary which was improved. The change did bring them nearer the secondary teachers' salaries. At a later date, as a result of Government policy, all teachers had their status improved.

The secondary teachers went to their own arbitration with their own independent arbitrator, agreed on between them and the Government. It was one of their nominees the Government accepted. In the normal scheme of arbitration, they argued against the Official Side for about six days for a widening of the relativity fixed at the national teachers' arbitration board. The majority of the secondary teachers arbitration board decided that the relativity fixed at the national teachers' arbitration should stand. This decision was made at an arbitration board in which there were secondary teachers advocating the opposite.

There has been a narrowing of the differential?

Definitely, but done by one arbitrator, agreed to by another and with the secondary teachers having full play of the ordinary process of advocacy at arbitration.

In respect of the differential?

This could have been changed by the secondary teachers' arbitration board if they were so convinced. There is no place for me to come in and say that both these arbitrators are wrong. I would be interfering with the arbitration. If I did it, I would have to ensure I would not be doing it at the expense of the national teachers.

There is a place for you. You should ask them to come and talk to you.

To get the examinations held, I am quite prepared to meet all the groups concerned.

You will meet the secondary teachers?

I am quite prepared to meet the secondary teachers, on the understanding that there is absolutely nothing I can do——

Do not put in any clause.

——without the agreement of the other groups of teachers. This is not a dispute with me. This is a dispute with arbitration and the findings in favour of the other teachers.

Has the Minister made the offer to the teaching bodies before to discuss the matter with them?

I want to make it very clear there is nothing I can offer them without agreement. I think, in view of the general situation, I would rather not say any more. There is no such thing as refusing to meet people. Discussions are going on, but not on the basis that I can act without the agreement of the other teacher groups and of the independent arbitrators.

The Minister has made his attitude clear. He says he can do nothing. He is not prepared to interfere with the arbitrator's award. Has the Minister asked the secondary teachers to discuss this matter with him?

And would he do so if he has not?

At the moment I am engaged in a series of discussions involving what we are talking about. I would rather not say any more about it.

I think we should pass on to the next question.

May I ask a further supplementary?

I do not think anything further arises out of the question.

74.

Mr. Ryan

asked the Minister for Education the number of (a) boys and (b) girls who are prospective candidates for this year's intermediate certificate examination, distinguishing between the numbers who will apply for pass and honours papers.

The total number of prospective candidates for the Intermediate Certificate examination this year, is 19,711, comprising (a) 8,927 boys and (b) 10,784 girls.

Separate pass and honours papers are not set at the Intermediate Certificate examination.

75.

Mr. Ryan

asked the Minister for Education if he will state in respect of this year's leaving certificate examination the number of prospective candidates distinguishing between (a) boys and girls, and (b) pass and honours candidates.

The total number of prospective candidates, inclusive of those being admitted under special rules, for the Leaving Certificate examination this year, is 13,459, comprising 6,742 boys and 6,717 girls.

Candidates are not obliged to indicate their choice as between pass and honours papers in the various subjects until the day of the examination. I am not, therefore, in a position to furnish information as to the number of pass and honours candidates.

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