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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 May 1964

Vol. 209 No. 12

Transport Bill, 1964— Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The main purpose of this Bill is to provide for payment of annual subsidy to Coras Iompair Éireann, to empower the Minister for Finance to advance moneys to the Board for capital purposes, and to make further provision for payment of redundancy compensation to railway employees whose services are dispensed with, or whose conditions are worsened because of transfer, in certain specified circumstances. The Bill also provides for writing off advances totalling £1 million made to the Board by the Minister for Finance under section 13 of the Transport Act, 1963. Other matters dealt with in the Bill relate to entry to the clerical grades of CIE, the development of property by the Board, as well as some other matters of a minor nature.

Before dealing with the Bill itself and future transport policy, I propose to review briefly the results of CIE over the past five years, the reorganisation period envisaged in the Transport Act, 1958. As Deputies are aware, the 1958 Act required the Board to break even by 31st March, 1964, and provided for payment to the Board in the financial years 1959-60 to 1963-64, inclusive, of an annual grant of £1 million. This annual grant was increased to £1.175 million by the Great Northern Railway Act, 1958, which provided for the transfer to CIE as from 1st October, 1958, without capital liability, of the GNR undertaking within the State. The Act also wrote off liabilities of CIE totalling £16.6 million, representing a saving of interest of some £600,000 per annum. To help CIE in their efforts to reduce losses during the reorganisation period, common carrier and other statutory obligations which had restricted their commercial adaptability were removed by the 1958 legislation and the Board were given complete commercial freedom in the fixing of rates and fares. The Board were also given full discretion in the termination of uneconomic rail services. Provision was also made in the 1958 legislation for recoupment by the Exchequer of the cost of redundancy compensation in respect of redundancy arising during the reorganisation period.

In the first two years of the Board's operation under the new charter granted to it by the Transport Act, 1958, hopes were high that the Board could become a viable undertaking within five years. By 1959/60 the Board's loss had been reduced to £709,000 and in the following year, it was down to £246,000, as compared with £1,950,000 in 1958/59. Unfortunately, however, this progress received a sharp set-back in 1961/62 when the Board's loss jumped to £1,696,000, due mainly to the impact of the eighth round increase in salaries and wages and associated improvements in working conditions, which represented a 20 per cent increase in the CIE wages and saleries Bill which the Board were unable to recover except to a partial extent by increased rates and fares. In 1962/63 there was a gap of more than £1 million between the additional labour costs and the counteracting fares and rates increase and the Board's net loss increased still further to £1,760,000. The most recent estimate for 1963/64 shows a net loss of £1,618,000. This shows a very marked improvement over 1962/63 when account is taken of the additional net cost to the Board in 1963/64 of the ninth round increase in salaries and wages, estimated at £236,000 in the last three months of the year, and of the net cost of the May, 1963, bus strike which amounted to £342,000.

Over the five year period, the Board's losses totalled £6,029,000 as against the aggregate subsidy of £5,875,000 provided for in the Transport Act, 1958. The difference of £154,000 was met by borrowing from the Exchequer and is part of the £1 million being written off in this Bill. The Board have not succeeded, despite far reaching reorganisation and modernisation, in achieving the target of breaking even by 31st March, 1964, and for reasons I will deal with later the target can now be seen to be unrealisable in Irish conditions. Over the five years the Board's expenditure on additions to capital assets, excluding hotels, was £5.2 million. Interest on capital and sinking fund are, of course, included in the losses of the Board.

The preponderating element in the results over the five years is, of course, the railway. The operating deficit on the railway which amounted to £1,247,000 in 1958/59 fell to £854,000 in 1959/60 and to £477,000 in 1960/61, but rose again to £1,362,000 in 1962/63 and fell to an estimated £772,000 in 1963/64. Total operating deficit on the railway over the five years was £5,058,000 compared with a total CIE loss of £6,029,000 but the total loss included financial charges of over £4 m, of which no element is included in the deficit on railway working.

The Road Passenger Department, of which Dublin city services contribute 64 per cent of the revenue continues to be profitable. The working surplus, before charging sinking fund for capital redemption and interest on capital amounted to £266,000 in 1963/4 as compared with £480,000 in 1962/63, with £511,000 in the preceding year and £764,000 in 1960/61 and surpluses of a similar order in preceding years. The steep decline in 1963/64 was due to the May, 1963, bus strike, the net cost of which, as I have already indicated, was £342,000, but with the continued growth of private transport it is possible that road passenger services may not in future be as profitable as in the past. Road freight transport has shown a marginal profit over the past few years but in 1963/64 it had an operating loss of about £80,000. The working surplus on hotels and catering has been well maintained since 1958/59. In 1963/64 the working surplus, before charging sinking fund or interest on capital, amounted to about £53,000 compared with £44,000 in 1958/59. In December, 1961, a subsidiary company, Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teo., was formed to operate the Board's hotels and catering service. In May, 1960, the operation of CIE barges on the Grand Canal was discontinued and the working loss on canals fell from £79,000 in 1959/60 to £51,000 in 1960/61 as a result. In 1963/64 the working loss was about £39,000. Vessels, docks, and so on, continue to show losses which amounted in 1963/64 to an estimated £29,000.

It will be clear from the foregoing that the losses of CIE are accounted for almost entirely by the losses on the railways. The railway system continues to be the main problem of public transport with which the Government have to deal.

The Beddy Committee envisaged the reduction of the CIE railway system to a main line one consisting of approximately 850 miles, to which must be added 63 miles of the former GNR Dublin-Belfast line, but the Transport Act, 1958, left full discretion to the Board in the matter of the termination of uneconomic rail services and in the provision of substitute services, if any. The new Board adopted the policy of substituting road services for any rail services closed down.

Between 1st October, 1958, and 31st March, 1964, the Board closed 621 route miles of railway line, which together with other reductions and alterations reduced the railway system to about 1,460 route miles. A number of lines have also been closed by CIE to passenger traffic and are now used for freight only or for freight and excursions. In addition, 218 stations and halts were closed by the Board during the reorganisation period compared with the closure of some 317 stations and halts envisaged by the Beddy Committee. A number of other stations have been partially closed.

Before closing a branch line, CIE carry out a detailed analysis of the cost of operation and revenue of rail services on the branch and of substitute road services, and where there is no prospect of economic operation of the branch and where a "betterment" in net receipts would accrue by substituting road for rail transport, it is decided to close the branch.

It is significant that the lines closed, even though they represented 29 per cent of the whole railway system, carried no more than 5 per cent of the total railway traffic and that the revenue derived from the closed lines and stations had not amounted to more than 6 per cent of total railway revenue. CIE have informed me that only 35 additional buses and 52 lorries, together with 57 extra lorries during peak periods were required to provide adequate and satisfactory substitute services.

The 57 extra lorries required for peak periods are supplied as far as possible from the general CIE fleet and where a sufficient number is not available the gap is bridged by hired hauliers. The financial betterment to CIE from these closures amounted to about £700,000 per annum. If these lines and stations were still in operation the losses would be heavier by at least £700,000 and this loss would grow with increasing costs.

The Beddy Committee referred to the low CIE utilisation of rail passenger and rail freight capacity in camparison with other Western European countries and felt that it was a matter of urgent necessity to improve rail utilisation. Between 1958/59 and 1962/63, the number of rail cars and carriages decreased by 27 per cent and the number of seats by 26 per cent. The tonnage capacity of rail freight vehicles declined by 16 per cent during the same period. As the volume of passenger and freight traffic has been maintained, these reductions represent a significant improvement in the utilisation of rolling stock, though because of our conditions it is still below European average. Over the same period, the number of diesel locomotives increased from 139 to 210, while steam locomotives, of which there were 347 in use in 1957/58, have been eliminated from normal working. All railway services are now operated by diesel power.

As the reorganisation of the railway was the main aim of the 1958 Act and as the losses of CIE are attributable to the railway, a closer look at railway working is worthwhile. The amalgamation with the Board of the part of the GNR system in the State on the 1st October, 1958, following the closure of the secondary cross-border GNR services, makes-detailed comparisons difficult. Generally, the pattern is that rail passenger traffic has been well maintained; there has been a decline from 11.7m. in 1958/59 to 9.8m. in 1963/64 in the numbers of passengers carried, in part due to the withdrawal of passenger services on a number of lines, the attenuation of the Dublin surburban services and the recent bad summers.

The passenger/mileage figure, which is the true index of traffic over the same period, has despite the closures, shown a slight increase from 326m. in 1958/59 to 331m. in 1963/64. Rail passenger traffic would probably have shown a decline but for the vigorous development of excursion traffic by CIE, including the introduction of day trips at single fares, the expansion of organised excursions and educational trips and mystery tours.

The tonnage of rail freight, excluding livestock, has also been well maintained. Ton mileage for freight of 187m. in 1958/59 has increased to 221m. in 1963/64, or by 18 per cent. There has been a steep decline in the numbers of livestock carried by rail over the years. The number carried in 1963/64 by rail was 379,000 compared with 536,000 in 1958/59. Carryings of livestock by CIE road services over the same period, however, have increased from 214,000 in 1958/59 to 320,000 in 1963/64, an increase of 50 per cent.

I should state here quite unequivocally that I have at repeated intervals pressed the Board of CIE to improve their publicity and advertising, both in order to get more business and make known to the public the tremendous campaign of reorganisation and the closer liaison with the public effected through sales market research staff. Along with this, I have asked the Board to consider reducing rail fares by the maximum possible.

In fact, the basic fares are comparable with those elsewhere. I am bound to believe the Board when they say they have thoroughly investigated this question and that the present range of cheap fares, excursion fares, special train journey fares, children's fares and rambler ticket rates represent the maximum they can effect without markedly increasing the deficit. Note is taken of the response to well-advertised special trains and the reluctance of the public to use train services which I can only hope will diminish with time.

The results of railway operations over the five years continue to show the same trends as in previous years which were noted and commented on in the Beddy Report of 1957. Despite improvements in utilisation of equipment, and even some advance in the volume of business, the railway is unable to recoup increased costs in competition with road transport. While the Board have been unable to combat these trends with complete success the position would have been much worse but for their efforts in many directions. Apart from the saving of £700,000 per annum from terminating uneconomic rail services, the Board have shown considerable commercial drive, with results on passenger and freight traffic already noted.

The management structure has been overhauled and decentralised and there has been a notable increase in efficiency and consequently in the public image of CIE. There have been many improvements in service such as better rolling stock, more comfortable buses, and improved passenger facilities at stations which are themselves now brighter and cleaner than ever before. The mechanisation of freight traffic has speeded up delivery and the Board claim that 85 per cent of freight traffic is now delivered within 24 hours. It has been estimated that were it not for the reorganisation carried out by the Board, including the closing of uneconomic lines, further dieselisation since 1958 and improvements in productivity, the Board's total loss would now be more than £3 million per annum.

The experience over the five years has demonstrated in a practical way that the hopes of breaking even are unrealisable. The prospects have, however, been examined in a detailed scientific way in an exhaustive study made by CIE. The objectives of the study—now known as "Pacemaker"— included a review of the salient features of CIE, their place in the national market for transport, their activities, finances, commercial policies, engineering services and industrial relations. The two more important parts of the Pacemaker report are devoted to an analysis of the profitability of the various sections of CIE and an examination of possible alternative systems of providing public transport. Copies of the report were placed in the Dáil Library some weeks ago and at the same time CIE undertook to make copies of the report available to the trade unions and, on request to other interested parties.

In order to carry out this study, CIE had to devise an economic model and to assemble statistical data on a scale and of a complexity that was not available for previous studies of the subject. For this purpose numerous surveys were undertaken and an electronic computer system and manual methods were used to manipulate and classify the source of material relating to physical quantities and type of traffic, vehicles and man-power. Traffic flows were established for a base year and the cost of transport was calculated for different combinations of rail and road systems. In establishing traffic flows, a high degree of accuracy was achieved by suitably devised sampling methods.

I propose to give some details from the Pacemaker report for the benefit of Deputies who may not have had an opportunity of reading it.

When was that published? When was it given to Deputies?

I could not say exactly. Some weeks ago.

Weeks? Nobody has seen it, that I know of. It was rather a secret document.

There was no secrecy.

It was in the Library a fortnight ago?

In any event, I am giving all the major information out of it in this speech.

I am only asking when was the Pacemaker document available to Deputies? A fortnight ago?

The Deputy is interrupting me. He will find the "secrets" in my speech.

How long ago? Some weeks ago? Last week? The week before?

Several weeks ago.

"Some weeks ago" is the phrase in the Minister's manuscript? How long ago?

I could not say. I could give the figure later to the Deputy.

The Minister should get a chance to tell us more about what an efficient body CIE is— without interruption.

This is a report. We are told it was in the Library some weeks ago. I want to know when.

The Minister has said many times that this body is infallible.

The Minister, without interruption.

"Some weeks ago": when?

It is most unusual for a Minister to be interrupted during a Second Reading speech, whenever else he may be interrupted.

Surely, it is not unusual to interrupt a——

All interruptions are disorderly. The Minister, to continue.

Generally, we are used to Ministers making speeches, not reading documents.

This surely is a kind of document envisaged in Standing Orders—an important statement.

Surely the Minister knows enough about his Department to know when the document was published?

I cannot discuss that with the Deputy. I call upon the Minister.

The Minister will recover his good humour and smile. The smile helps us a lot.

Order. The Minister, without interruption.

He does not know when the report was published. Is that clear?

I think he was badly briefed before coming into the House.

I should perhaps explain that the report was prepared by the management for the Board of CIE and does not contain and was not intended to contain any recommendations for future policy.

In the analysis of the profitability of the railway, road passenger, and road freight sections of CIE many difficulties arose in allocating costs and revenue and the results cannot, therefore, be regarded as precise, but they are valuable even if they are only indicative of the actual situation. The following sections were considered separately: Railway; Dublin city bus services; provincial city bus services; provincial road passenger services, (other than city services); and road freight operation. Full information is given on the methods by which the profitability or otherwise of different sectors are calculated and of the basis of calculation leading to the determination of uneconomic lines.

Full information is given in the report?

In the report.

The Minister is not giving it. He is quoting from a report which we have not got.

It is a summary of some of the major features of the report.

Dealing with the railway, the report indicates that the six largest stations account for more than half the revenue and 110 stations account for 14 per cent of the revenue. A total of 410 miles of railway is wholly profitable, 300 miles are marginally profitable and the balance of 750 miles is unprofitable. In other words, about half of the railway mileage is wholly unprofitable and the remainder is approximately breaking even. It cannot be assumed from this that the closure of 750 miles of unprofitable track would bring about a break-even situation. While the closure of branch lines does not generally mean loss of traffic, the closure of certain unprofitable secondary lines could, depending on the extent to which they act as feeders to the main system, have a serious effect on the remainder of the system. The discontinuance of services on all of this 750 miles would in fact reduce the railway to an unworkable unit. A further important fact revealed is that ten major traffics account for 70 per cent of rail freight tonnage and 50 per cent of rail freight revenue and are accounted for by as few as 20 firms, which means that rail freight transport is in an extremely vulnerable position.

Analysis shows that the cost of running the Dublin suburban passenger rail services, as far as costs can be segregated, is substantially greater than revenue. It is estimated that if the Dublin suburban passenger rail services were operated in isolation, that is, without other rail services to share track and other common costs, an operating loss of £505,000 per annum would be incurred. By contrast, the Dublin city bus services have overall profitability and CIE estimate that they contributed a cross-subsidy of £380,000 to the remainder of the undertaking in the year 1961-62, which represented an average cross-subsidy per passenger of 0.37 pence or 8.2 per cent of the average fare paid.

Dealing with the bus services, the report pointed out that of the total of 79 Dublin city bus services operated by the board, seven services earn one-third of the total revenue and 18 services earn only two per cent of the total revenue. As many as 35 services operate at a loss; eight are marginally profitable while 36 services show a profit. Generally, the services which operate with low frequency or over short distances are the least profitable. As few as 21 services account for about 80 per cent of the profits. There is, therefore, substantial cross-averaging within the Dublin city services. Of the 24 provincial city bus services operated, three account for 42 per cent of the revenue while half of the services account for only 16 per cent of the revenue. Thirteen are operated at a loss and five are marginally profitable. The profitable services are, however, sufficiently viable to enable the provincial city services as a whole to be regarded as breaking even but no more.

Provincial road passenger services to the number of 234 are operated by the Board and of these almost two-thirds earn an annual revenue of less than £5,000 per annum and account for only 15 per cent of the total revenue in this section. Ninety-one per cent of all the provincial road passenger services earn only 57 per cent of the total revenue. Seventy-three services are wholly profitable, nine are marginally profitable and the remaining 152 services are unprofitable. Generally, the short distance services are the least profitable. The provincial road passenger services as a whole are only marginally profitable in that they contribute only one per cent to overheads and other unallocated costs against a required four per cent to break even.

There are 141 road freight depots and of these almost threequarters give rise to only ten per cent of the total road freight revenue. The seven largest depots account for 51 per cent of the revenue. Road freight falls into four divisions, namely, railhead services; scheduled services; livestock services; and other services. Railhead services are very unprofitable, revenue being over 40 per cent short of the level necessary to break even. Scheduled services are also unprofitable, revenue being about 20 per cent short of the break-even level. Livestock services are not fully profitable and make a contribution of 14 per cent towards overheads and other costs which cannot be allocated against a required 30 per cent to break even. Other services are also not fully profitable and contribute 23 per cent towards overheads and other unallocated costs against a required 30 per cent break-even level.

That means all road freight services are uneconomical?

That is the case, with the exception of certain individual services.

With all the subdivisions of railhead services, livestock services and so on?

There are some economic services.

But in the aggregate they are all uneconomical?

Yes, Road freight services combined are not fully profitable in that they contribute 11 per cent towards overheads and other unallocated costs against a required 26 per cent to break even.

As I have already mentioned, various alternative systems of providing public transport are examined in the report ranging from the present system through a number of different combinations of rail and road to an all-road system. The report shows the operating costs for each system and the additional capital requirements for a change-over to another system. The conclusions to be drawn are, in effect, that no public transport system incorporating a railway can pay its way; that there is no real alternative to the present system of public transport other than a planned complete change-over to road transport; but that the capital cost of the changeover would be such as to rule it out as a practical proposition.

In considering the future legislative provisions for CIE after the expiry of the relevant provisions of the Transport Act, 1958, the Government had in the first place to consider the position of the railway. The experience over the five year reorganisation period and the Pacemaker study disposed finally of the hope that either the railway or the undertaking as a whole would be put on a self-supporting basis. Moreover the findings of the Pacemaker study showed that while a complete changeover to road transport could possibly yield a public transport system which would carry on without operating losses the enormous capital required and the very heavy staff redundancy would be such as to outweigh the advantages.

The Government had also to consider the value of the railway system to the country. It represents a vast national investment and offers advantages many of which could not be provided by road transport. This is particularly the case for tourist traffic and for peak traffics of various kinds. The Government have decided, therefore, after very full and careful consideration, to preserve the railway system, subject to such further concentration and reorganisation as may prove practicable and desirable, and to provide a fixed annual subsidy with the aid of which the Board should be expected to break even.

As I have already indicated, the Pacemaker study showed that of the present railway system of about 1,460 miles, 410 miles are fully profitable, 300 miles marginally profitable, and 750 miles wholly unprofitable. The closure of secondary lines and branch lines which make any significant contribution to the main line system would further reduce the profitability of the profitable sector and, therefore, substantial further reduction of the system could well increase the total loss. While it is expected that some further concentration will be found desirable and practicable it is probable that we have come near the minimum practicable railway system, beyond which further reduction would increase the loss.

I should perhaps digress for a moment to analyse the fundamental reasons why a railway system cannot be operated profitably in our circumstances. Of course it is a fact that railways in most other countries also show losses of varying amounts but there are special difficulties for a railway in Ireland. The main item of expenditure on a railway is the high cost of providing and maintaining fixed capital overheads. The cost of maintaining the railway line, stations, signal equipment, rolling stock etc. is very largely fixed and is influenced very little by the volume of traffic.

In Ireland we have a relatively sparse population and the main centres of population and industry are near the coast, particularly the east coast, and the country does not, therefore, yield the density of traffic in either passengers or freight which could provide a reasonably high level of utilisation of the equipment and staff. Our present mileage of railway line represents 51 miles per 100,000 population, as compared with an average in 1962 of 39 miles for 12 representative European countries.

A further factor is that, principally because of the double handling involved, the railway is most effective and most economic for longer distances. We have no railway journey in this country which could be described as long by any international standards. Further handicaps are the absence of large homogenous traffics such as coal or ore, which are particularly suited to railways, and of the long distance transit traffic which is a feature of much continental railway operation.

I have made a considerable study of European railway finances. In the systems where expenditure, including interest on capital, is equated either absolutely or approximately to revenue there are always factors operating which do not exist here, such as the high density of population or the existence of great ore deposits in an area where road facilities are lacking or heavy transit traffic or a population concentrated in towns and large villages.

The fixed subsidy of £2 million per annum, which will be subject to alteration in the light of circumstances at the end of five years, has been calculated after careful examination of estimates supplied by CIE. It represents what the Government consider to be a realistic estimate of the minimum subsidy with which CIE can get by, on the basis of continued effective management, increased efficiency and productivity and careful husbanding of resources. When this Bill becomes law, I shall direct the Board to make a further tremendous sustained effort to secure and retain traffic and to reduce costs, in the hope that the Bill's subsidy provisions be over-adequate. The Board accept that the subsidy is not a permitted loss but an estimated covering of a deficit.

The House will realise that while the Government have decided to preserve the railway, the subsidy is heavy by European standards particularly if European war pensions and capital amortisation are eliminated from the deficits of European railways. It amounts to about ten per cent of last year's total revenue from all sources and almost 25 per cent of rail revenue alone.

State financial aid for industry takes the form of capital grants of different types, and the payment of very large direct subsidies to cover the difference between the annual current expenditure and receipts of a particular concern or group of producers is mainly confined to the agricultural field and related to exports. In the case of transport there is a huge investment in private transport and a great amplitude of vehicles in relation to national income. A subsidy is only justified because an arterial railway system is essential under conditions likely to prevail for a considerable period. I have an objection to current operating subsidies as they tend to cause slackness and I trust that the Board and staff will continue to improve the efficiency of the system.

The successive Governments examining the affairs of the public transport service have always tried to frame legislation based on the hope that the entire system might pay its way even if its capital was largely unremunerated. The Second Reading speeches attending all the CIE legislalation clearly indicate this. Until Pacemaker was published, CIE in common with a great many other railways had not devised a system of cost computation which could truly present an objective picture of railway and road transport economics. The CIE report together with some other similiar reports represent advancement and pioneering in a relatively new field.

The country's size permitting of only 160 miles arterial rail links with Dublin, without ore traffic or transit business, is small enough to cause heavy deficits and yet large enough to warrant the preservation of the main railroad arterial system under prevailing conditions. An operating subsidy under these circumstances is inevitable. Once this decision is made, then some assurance of continued operation is desirable. The arrangements in this Bill ensure that there is no running down of the main arterial system but on the contrary the maintenance and improvement of the system. The decision has been made that a railway is essential in this country even at a heavy cost to the taxpayer. No private operator would take on the obligation—that is certain.

It is for the management of CIE, the staff and the public to justify this subsidy to ensure that there is no catastrophic fall in revenue in the next decade or thereafter which would demand a further examination of the position. A subsidy of ten per cent of total rail and road services revenue is very large indeed by European standards; a subsidy of almost 25 per cent of railway revenue is enormous; being nearly twice the European average.

If the hopes of every Minister in charge of CIE, whenever a new Bill was provided, that the system would pay have been dashed in the past it is to be sincerely hoped that this very large subsidy will be sufficient and that the subsidy payable after 1969 will be proportionally less, if at all possible, as the country grows in prosperity.

I should point out that my predecessor, Deputy Lemass, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, was realistic in his comments on the Second Reading of the 1958 Bill. In some four of five references to the economic position of the railway his general view can be summed up in the following statement which I quote from volume 167, column 1598, of the Official Report:

It cannot be expected that any reorganisation measures or release from financial obligations such as I have mentioned could enable the board of CIE to achieve solvency immediately. Indeed, the Bill envisages that the board will not have reached that situation for five years. I know that at the present time there are few railway systems in the world which are not losing money and that in expecting the board of CIE to achieve solvency it may be said that we are asking them to do something that other railway executives are not able to do even under more favourable circumstances.

That may be true, but we must not allow the experience of other countries to lead us into slovenly thinking or relaxation of effort to improve the position of CIE. We have to decide policy in this matter solely in relation to our own circumstances and it is obviously necessary that we should try to put our public transport undertaking on a solvent basis and so relieve the general taxpayer of the necessity of subsidising it by annual subvention. Those who are concerned to secure the preservation of the railway system of the country must be conscious of the fact that the support of public opinion for that effort will be available only where there is evidence that the system is being worked in an economical and efficient manner and that the prospect of recurring losses will be reduced.

In his reply to the debate, the then Minister was again extremely realistic in his approach and at no time predicted a definite position whereby CIE would be self-sufficient. At the period when CIE appeared to be extinguishing their deficit, I spoke conservatively and made it clear that there would be no easy passage for CIE. Deputies will derive no comfort from the researches into what was said in 1949 or 1955. In 1949, the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking on the Second Stage of the Transport Bill, 1949, said, as reported in volume 118 column 69, of the Official Report:

In recommending this Bill to the House, I should like again to explain that it does not in itself purport to provide an immediate solution for the transport difficulties with which we have been beset for so many years. I recommend it, however, as an appreciable advance on the road towards a final solution. The Bill establishes the machinery and the organisation which, in capable hands and properly used, should bring efficiency and prosperity to our transport system.

And that has not happened. We have had neither efficiency nor prosperity in the transport system.

In 1955 the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, speaking on the Second Stage of the Transport Bill, 1955, said, as reported in volume 153, column 605 of the Official Report:

In recommending this Bill to the House, I am sure that every Deputy will wish to facilitate the recovery now being made——

"Now being made".

——by our national transport system. As I have said, the primary function of the Bill is to enable CIE to proceed with their capital programme which, I am confident, will lead to an efficient self-supporting public transport system so vital to our agricultural, industrial, commercial and tourist needs.

"Which, I am confident, will lead to an efficient self-supporting public transport system".

I do not suggest that these statements were made irresponsibly. As I have indicated the modern computered analysis of costs had not then been undertaken.

The Members of the House are entitled to ask what will happen if there is a very marked deterioration in the position. My answer is that the Government have made certain assumptions as with all future planning. These are that:

(1) It is hoped that the Board, supported by the entire staff, will induce more efficiency and retain existing traffics.

(2) It is hoped that the railway will gain traffic from the growth in the general economy.

(3) There is recognition of the fact that the huge staff of CIE will and should receive increases of remuneration applicable to the whole economy and that future increases as a result of the advice of the National Industrial Economic Council will be based on national productivity growth on a basis clearly set forth by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance.

(4) No doubt the staff and management will recognise the special characteristics of the railway finances, the dependence on 20 important customers and on courteous punctual service.

(5) It is to be hoped that the staff while securing better remuneration as the nation advances will recognise the need for examining any changes in work procedures whose effect would be to jeopardise the whole future of the railway. A subsidy of ten per cent on the revenue is at a level which the public can reluctantly accept.

The moral of this is obvious. The Government have given a new lease of life to the railway section of CIE. The Board and staff must meet the challenge presented to them. The public might also recognise that a public transport system is essential but that it cannot be starved of traffic. There are many private companies who have not even yet permitted CIE to calculate package deal comparisons. They might now reconsider their present attitude.

I should also make it clear that by any European standard and in relation to our national income the total provision of CIE bus, lorry and rail services is adequate and in many areas lavish in quantity, as instanced in the number of seats as distinct from standing room available in the cities.

No doubt there will be changes in the future, the rail and road services will be tailored by need, but the proportion of losing services is complete proof that CIE do not under-estimate the need as compared with the economics of service.

As it is now established that CIE cannot pay their way, the provision of finance by means of public stock issues is no longer appropriate. Provision is made in the Bill for the issue of capital requirements from the Exchequer. These issues are interest-bearing but the subsidy takes account of the need to pay interest to the Exchequer and provide for sinking funds on the sums advanced. Apart from book-keeping considerations, it is desirable that the subsidy voted for the purpose should reflect the true revenue loss of the undertaking. The £6 million capital borrowing provided for is an overall estimate of the sums required for approximately five years. The issues for actual expenditure each year will have to be considered on their merits and no firm estimate of the period for which the £6 million will be adequate can now be given with any certainty. Further capital requirements will necessitate further legislation. The Government's intention is that sufficient capital must be provided to enable the railway to be maintained in efficient operation while avoiding expenditure of an uneconomic kind which may not be strictly essential. The Board are directed, therefore, to confine capital expenditure to essential works or to remunerative projects.

The position of the CIE staff under the new provisions of course merits explanation. CIE are the largest employer of labour in the country. Total staff at 31st March, 1964, is estimated at 20,148, of whom 10,947 were railway employees, 6,402 road passenger employees, 2,675 road freight employees and 124 canal employees. Salaries and wages in the year 1963-64 amounted to £13.4 million and account for 62 per cent of the operating expenditure and 64 per cent of operating revenue. In addition, CIE contributions to their various pension schemes in that year amounted to £643,000, to which must be added the Board's contribution of £238,000 under the Social Welfare Acts, making a total contribution of £881,000. The cost of the Board's welfare scheme, which is in the region of £94,000, is additional to the foregoing. CIE as a whole, therefore, and the railway in particular, provide a livelihood for many thousands of families and this fact as well as the dry economic statistics and the services rendered to the community must be taken into account in any consideration of our transport problem.

The Beddy Report of 1957 foresaw that a reorganisation of the undertaking on the lines recommended would involve very considerable staff redundancy. The Report considered that in determining the staff necessary for the efficient operation of the undertaking a suitable balance should be preserved between younger and older men. During the debate on the Transport Bill, 1958, the Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, appealed to the unions to relax the "first in, first out" rule so as to enable the staff reductions to be carried out on an ordered basis which would not impair efficiency. Provision was made in the 1958 Bill for the extension of railway redundancy compensation to cover redundancy arising out of the general reorganisation of the undertaking over the five year period provided for and the cost of the redundancy arising therefrom was made a charge on the Exchequer. These special provisions were intended to facilitate the once and for all major reduction in staff which was expected to be necessary if the planned reorganisation was to be carried through effectively and in the expectation that this reorganisation would enable CIE to achieve solvency.

Up to 31st March, 1964, 1,768 CIE employees were retired on redundancy compensation. Of these, 1,696 received annual sums and 72 short-service employees received gratuities. In addition, 829 employees received lump sum compensation for worsening of their conditions of service. The cost to date amounts to some £1.8 million but payments will continue on a reducing basis for many years and the ultimate aggregate cost is estimated at over £7 million. The net reduction in staff from 22,051 in October, 1958, to 20,148 at 31st March, 1964, amounted to 1,903. This figure was made up of a reduction of 1,861 in rail staff, 310 in canal staff and 136 in road passenger staff, offset by an increase of 404 in road freight staff. When account is taken of normal wastage, which in an undertaking such as CIE would average about three per cent per annum, or a total of 3,000 in five years, the size of this reduction of 1,903, which was secured only by retiring 1,768 employees on compensation at a cost of over £7 million to the Exchequer, is disappointing.

While it is obvious that gross wastage cannot be fully utilised to effect ordered staff reductions arising out of planned reorganisation, it does seem that normal wastage should have facilitated staff reduction to a greater extent. In the five years from 1953 to 1958, CIE staff, excluding the Hotels Department, was reduced by normal wastage and without resort to statutory redundancy compensation from 20,050 to 19,032, a net reduction of 1,018, including a reduction of 1,271 in rail grades.

Analysis of the statistics of staff retired on compensation shows that 51 per cent were over 60 years while a further 18 per cent were over 50. The high level of railway compensation which is based not only on pay but also on other emoluments which, following the findings of the Standing Arbitrator, include overtime, travel concessions, gratuities, car allowances, out-of-pocket expenses etc., is in general more attractive than normal retirement pensions for older men. Staff redundancy has been effected by CIE on a planned basis in consultation with the trade unions, with whom they have to agree the extent to which redundancy will be met by transfer, planned wastage and retirement with compensation, respectively. As the figures I have quoted reveal, there has been a strong tendency for older men to seek retirement on compensation in advance of normal retiring age. The result has been that much of the redundancy has been at the expense of normal wastage, which would have come about in due course, or of transfer with lump sum compensation. For this reason and because older men qualify for a higher level of compensation, the cost to the Exchequer has been very much higher than was ever anticipated. The total cost of over £7 million represents an average cost per redundant of approximately £4,000.

The extension of railway redundancy compensation effected under the Transport Act, 1958, and the placing of the cost on the Exchequer were, as I have already stated, wholly exceptional measures to facilitate the rapid and major reorganisation then foreseen. It was not intended that these provisions would be maintained after the period of reorganisation. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, when speaking on the Transport Bill, 1958, was crystal clear in his declaration that the same type of redundancy terms would not be perpetuated. Leaving aside the heavy cost, these measures have achieved to a large extent their main objective—that of enabling CIE to undertake certain major reorganisation schemes for which they could not otherwise have expected to receive full trade union co-operation.

Redundancy compensation provisions have been a feature of Irish railway legislation since 1924 and prior to the Transport Act, 1958, the cost fell on the railway companies. Compensation is at a very generous level. Staff with more than five years' service are entitled to compensation pension for life, which is reduced by a quarter at 65 years. Provision is made for added years and a man with 30 years' service may retire with a pension of two-thirds of his retiring emoluments, which, as I have indicated, may in many cases include much more than pay.

This level of compensation is not, to my knowledge equalled anywhere in the world. Under the arrangements for compensation of British railway staff retired on redundancy arising out of the implementation of the Beeching proposals, the dismissed employee receives a lump sum payment amounting to two-thirds of the standard weekly rate for each year of service plus a weekly resettlement payment, while unemployed, at two-thirds of the standard weekly rate, less unemployment benefit at a single man's rate. The resettlement period over which this weekly payment may be made varies with the length of service and is subject to a maximum of 52 weeks.

Under these arrangements a man with 45 years' service, earning £10 8s. Od. per week, would receive a lump sum of £312 and weekly payments, while unemployed, which over the maximum resettlement period of 52 weeks would amount to £211, giving him a total of £523. It has been proposed that, in addition to the foregoing, redundant men of 60 years of age and over, with at least 30 years' service, should on expiry of the resettlement period continue to receive half the standard weekly pay, less unemployment benefit, until they find work or reach 65 years of age.

The provision of compulsory compensation by legislation and the generous level of compensation was a recognition of the special problem of a public service which was seen to be contracting and whose permanent staff, having regard to their location and specialised training, would, particularly in former years, have had great difficulty in securing reasonably paid employment elsewhere. Entitlement to these statutory compensation provisions came to be regarded as part of the conditions of employment of railway staff and helped to secure and retain the services of good staff. Though no further major reduction in the railway system is now foreseen and though prospects of alternative employment are better than they were, the Government consider that statutory redundancy compensation provisions similar to those which existed prior to the 1958 Act should be retained. There is no justification, however, for the payment of the cost by the Exchequer but the cost of possible future redundancy has been taken into account in settling the level of subsidy. Compensation for redundancy arising out of the automation of level crossings, which is analogous to the closing of railway services, and which was first provided for in the 1958 Act, is retained.

The Government do not consider that statutory redundancy compensation provisions are either necessary or desirable to cover redundancy arising out of contingencies other than those provided for in the Bill. The extension of redundancy compensation in 1958 to facilitate the reorganisation of the whole undertaking was a temporary and exceptional measure to meet exceptional circumstances which have now passed. The special drawbacks of railway employment arising out of the possibility of contraction of the system do not apply throughout the undertaking. Many sectors are more likely to expand than contract and many workers, especially tradesmen, could easily secure good alternative well paid employment. No special measures are necessary, therefore, to protect their position other than the existing legislative provision under which CIE are obliged to settle the conditions of service of their staff in consultation with the trade unions.

In so far as CIE wish to implement measures to secure greater efficiency or productivity and which would affect the level of employment in particular departments they will no doubt negotiate, as hitherto, with the trade unions in order to settle how any redundancy arising would be dealt with. The cost of any redundancy compensation or severance pay which might be agreed would, of course, be a proper charge against the savings to be secured from the increased productivity.

The remaining matters in the Bill are of minor importance. CIE are being enabled to use modern selection methods in recruiting clerical staff but the principles of open competition and competence in Irish are being retained. The Board are being empowered to be represented by officials at certain meetings rather than by directors as required by the somewhat obsolete legislation governing the affairs of the Irish Railway Clearing House and the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company. Provision is made for retention by CIE staff transferred to Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teo., the new hotel subsidiary, of compensation rights to which they may be entitled. Section 10 deals with the position of a person who may have been dismissed on redundancy, later re-employed, and after a period again dismissed. The section also clarifies the position regarding abatement of redundancy compensation. Section 11 enables the Board to develop land or property not required for their own purposes. Deputies will have noticed that this Bill does not touch on road transport legislation. There are aspects of road transport legislation and, indeed other matters, but of a minor character, affecting the affairs of CIE, which call for review. Further investigation and examination are, however, necessary before a decision can be reached as to the extent and character of such further amending legislation as may be necessary.

Before concluding, may I repeat the main points outlined in my speech? First, it has been established that CIE have no prospect of paying their way. Secondly, a changeover from rail to road would not solve the financial problem nor provide for certain purposes services as good as the railway. The Government have, therefore, decided to preserve the railway system subject to such further concentration and reorganisation as may be found practicable and desirable. The Bill provides for a fixed subsidy, with the aid of which CIE must break even, for advances to meet capital expenditure which is either essential or remunerative. Borrowings of £1 million from the Exchequer are being written off. Statutory railway redundancy compensation provisions are retained to meet the redundancy arising out of railway closures, on the same lines as before the reorganisation period provided for in the 1958 Act, and the cost will as formerly fall on CIE. Redundancy arising out of other contingencies such as economies or other improvements in efficiency will be a matter for negotiation between CIE and the trade unions. In general, the position in regard to redundancy compensation reverts to the pre-1958 position.

As I think I have demonstrated, there is no facile solution to our transport problem. A similar problem exists in most other countries where the continued rapid increase in private transport for both passengers and goods multiplies difficulties for public transport and particularly for the railways. The financial provisions of this Bill are necessary if a satisfactory public transport system is to be maintained. I am convinced that the Board's abbreviated but highly informative report circulated to the Oireachtas and summarising the reorganisation effected in the five years reflects credit on the entire staff even though this achievement was marked by some unfortunate strikes. I am certain that but for the progress made I would have been confronted with a requirement for a totally inadmissible subvention and that some alternative drastic change in the public transport system would be inevitable. I recommend the Bill to the Dáil, if not with pleasure, at least with the confidence that no better solution exists at this time. Success in justification of the Bill lies squarely with the Board and the staff.

The last phrase the Minister used was that he recommended "the Bill to the Dáil, if not with pleasure, at least with the confidence that no better solution exists ..." and then he passes the buck to the Board and staff of CIE.

Hear, hear.

This is a most shameful oration to the Dáil delivered by a shameless person. The Minister says there is no facile solution for the problems of transport in this country. Since the Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, put his clumsy hands on the transport system of this country in 1933, we have had nothing but a series of speeches breathing confidence that, after the arrangements made by the Legislature, we would get an efficient system, a system that would cater for the needs of the community, a system that would give us a cheap service and one adequate for all our needs. Here we are, in 1964, finding out now that all that was so much nonsense and discovering that there is now recognition for the first time that the transport system cannot be met by the legislative proposals since 1933, or even by the present one.

I expressed my view on this the other night; this represents to me the most expensive wake I have ever been asked to attend. We are now repealing, and repealing with a good deal of public expense, the transport legislation of 1933 and, more particularly, the transport legislation of 1958 and the Minister has nothing to offer us except to say that this is in common with all countries, and this, that, and the other. He has not told us when he realised that the transport situation here was different from or equal to the difficulties experienced by transport associations in other countries. He does not give us any date for that. He says it was realised. I wonder when.

I turn now to some of the detail— details, of course, will have to be threshed out on the Committee Stage— that he gives us here at page 8 of the typescript, with which he has been good enough to supply us. He says that "While the Board has been unable to combat these trends with complete success"—that is the greatest understatement of the year; they have been proved to be completely incompetent under the Minister's management; I do not intend to compromise or criticise the Board except under the Minister's mismanagement. It is wrong to say that the trends have been met with complete success, the Minister says, and he goes on to add that "the position would have been much worse but for their efforts in many directions". Later he says that, if it were not for the reorganisation carried out by the Board, including the closing of uneconomic lines, further dieselisation and improvements in productivity, the Board's total loss would now be over £3 million per annum instead of merely the £750,000 that he expects it to be. I think the answer to a question today shows the deficit for the year to be about £1,500,000. This speech was probably written before that question was replied to. We are told that a good deal of the Minister's speech depends on the report. Asked when that was given to us, it was said to have been some weeks ago.

It was placed in the Library on 9th March, as promised.

We know that.

When was the Minister's speech prepared for him? Earlier than that? Had he cognisance of this report? Did he give Deputies a chance to estimate what he was going to say to us on the basis of the facts and figures in the report? I never saw it until my colleague brought it to me now. There were two big volumes in the Library on 9th March. We are here now, late in May, and the Minister has a speech prepared for him by civil servants, a speech founded on that report which we had no chance of secing. I cannot, therefore, comment on the Pacemaker Report because I have not had time to read it.

The Minister talks about this report being a detailed scientific criticism made in a detailed scientific way as a result of an exhaustive study and he found a good deal of the matter to which he has treated us on that report. He says copies were delivered to trade unions or, on request, to other parties. We might, I think, have been favoured with a copy of the report specially directed to us. I certainly did not see it and I had no cognisance of it until this evening. As a person who was at one time charged with responsibility for transport, I think I might have been made cognisant of it before tonight.

Was it not in the Dáil Library?

Why was it not put on the Table of the Dáil?

If the Deputy were not so anxious to engage in destructive criticism he would know better what he was talking about.

Did Deputy de Valera study the details of the Pacemaker Report before to-night? Did he hear of it?

I did. I knew it was in the Library.

Did he read it?

There we are.

I knew it was in Library. I had some information about it.

I have had some experience of transport, more than Deputy de Valera has had, and I should have thought that, if trade unions had been given copies of the report, some of our people would at least have had their attention directed to it. I certainly had no such direction to the Pacemaker Report. It appears to me from what the Minister said about the report that he has now discovered that half the railway mileage is wholly unprofitable and the remaineder is approximately breaking even.

I read in the Minister's statement that the cost of running the Dublin suburban passenger rail service is substantially greater than revenue. It appears that if the Dublin suburban passenger rail service were brought in, Dublin transport is running at a loss of £100,000. In Dublin, we were under the illusion that the services in Dublin were paying for the rest of the country. Now we find—if I read this correctly, and at a hurried glance—that we are £100,000 down as between bus and rail on the Dublin suburban traffic.

The Deputy has made a mistake. He is in error in what he says.

I have made an error? Would the Minister correct me and tell me where?

The Deputy could quite easily make a mistake. The loss on the Dublin railways is £500,000.

I am reading from page 10 of the Minister's statement. Has the Minister got his typescript? "The cost of running the Dublin suburban passenger rail services ... is substantially greater than revenue." That is all right. "It is estimated that if the Dublin suburban passenger rail services were operated in isolation ... an operating loss of £505,000 per annum would be incurred. By contrast, the Dublin city bus services have overall profitability and CIE estimate that they contributed a cross-subsidy of £380,000 to the remainder of the undertaking..." If I subtract £380,000 from £500,000, it means the services are running at a loss of £120,000. Am I right in that?

The Deputy's interpretation about the total loss——

Is that right?

We are losing £120,000 in Dublin between bus and rail.

In present circumstances, the whole railway system——

The Minister has said——

If the Deputy does not want an explanation, I shall not give one.

——the Dublin bus and rail services are running at a loss. The transport services which were regarded as a profitable concern in Dublin are running at a loss between bus and rail, we are told. We are told that freight is running at a loss, and we are told that about half of the railway mileage is wholly unprofitable and the remainder is approximately breaking even.

Just in case someone else makes a mistake, I must point out that this is a misconception.

That is what the Minister said.

It is quite possible for the Deputy to misunderstand——

What have I misunderstood?

The figure for the Dublin suburban passenger rail service, operating in isolation shows an operating loss——

I am reading from paragraph 21.

The operating loss is £500,000.

"The cost of running the Dublin suburban passenger rail services ... is substantially greater than revenue."

If the Deputy continues to interrupt, I cannot possibly give an explanation.

Let us get this clear. In the first sentence of paragraph 21, it is stated that "the cost of running the Dublin suburban passenger rail services is substantially greater than revenue". Is that right? The second sentence is: "It is estimated that if the Dublin suburban passenger rail services were operated in isolation ... an operating loss of £500,000"—I am taking the even figure—"would be incurred". The next sentence goes on to say: "By contrast, the Dublin city bus services have overall profitability and CIE estimate that they contributed a cross-subsidy of £380,000 ..." Am I right or am I wrong? Subtracting £380,000 from £500,000 leaves £120,000.

Would the Deputy allow me to explain?

I do not want any explanation. Am I correctly interpreting what the Minister said?

I must explain. I cannot just say "yes" or "no". The Deputy has not understood the point made.

I am taking the three sentences. I am told there is a loss on the Dublin suburban passenger rail services. I am told that if the Dublin suburban passenger services were operated in isolation, there would be an operating loss of £500,000. I am told in the third sentence that "by contrast, the Dublin city bus services have overall profitability and CIE estimate that they contributed a cross-subsidy of £380,000". If I subtract £380,000 from £500,000, there is a loss of £120,000. Perhaps the Minister will tell me where I am wrong. My calculation is not wrong. The Minister's statement may be wrong. That is the situation we are in.

The Deputy is wrong.

I am not wrong in my calculation.

The Deputy will not give me a chance to explain.

What is wrong? Perhaps the Minister would enlighten me now.

The Deputy would have to yield for two minutes. He will not let me speak.

I cannot hear the Minister.

The Deputy is comparing two incomparables. The loss of £500,000 on the Dublin railways is on the assumption that they were operating in isolation. The profit on the bus services is an actual profit, but if you take the loss on the railways, not in isolation and sharing the overhead costs for the rest of the system, including the track to Wexford and so forth, the loss would be something in the neighbourhood of £120,000 and £130,000.

That is what I said.

No; the loss on the railways——

Can the Minister explain that new version of Pacemaker and let us know where we are? Paragraph 21 means that, between bus and rail, the service in Dublin is running at a loss of £120,000. The Minister also told us that, "half of the railway mileage is wholly unprofitable and the remainder is approximately breaking even". We are told that so far as freight is concerned, there are four divisions: railhead services, scheduled services, livestock services and other services.

I want to find out when the Minister discovered this. After all, this is May, 1964. Questions have been asked and, in the main, evaded by the Minister. We have been given no information as to when it was realised that transport in this country could not be operated profitably. The Minister said: "The conclusions to be drawn are in effect that no public transport system incorporating a railway can pay its way". That is what we are discovering in 1964, while in 1933 the Taoiseach, who was then Minister for Industry and Commerce, told us that after the arrangements made by the Legislature we would have a system which would give an efficient and cheap transport service, which would cater for the needs of the community.

At the end of his speech, the Minister summarised the position and then said:

I recommend the Bill to the Dáil, if not with pleasure, at least with the confidence that no better solution exists at this time.

He said earlier that there is no facile solution to our transport problem. His controller, the Taoiseach, had a facile solution in 1933 when he thought that transport in this country could be made to pay its way. Now we are told that that has been recognised as farcical, and that there is no facile solution to our transport problem.

On page 14 of his statement, the Minister entered on an analysis of "the fundamental reasons why a railway system cannot be operated profitably in our circumstances." I want to stop there. When did the Minister make this analysis? When did he come to the conclusion that "a railway system cannot be operated profitably in our circumstances"? Was it months ago? We were under the illusion that the railway company could meet its requirements under the 1958 Act and pay its way inside the five years ending last year. Now we are told by the Minister that he is going "to analyse the fundamental reasons why a railway system cannot be operated profitably in our circumstances."

The Minister also said that the cost of maintaining the railway line is very largely fixed and is influenced very little by the volume of traffic. He goes on in paragraph 28 to say:

In Ireland we have a relatively sparse population and the main centres of population and industry are near the coast, particularly the east coast, and the country does not therefore yield the density of traffic—

Is that a thought which has occurred to the Minister in 1964? Geographically, all these facts have been before the Minister. We have a sparse population and it is mainly along the east coast and it is not scattered as in other countries. The Minister tells us that in May, 1964. This is a new thought to him. He is developing this thought for the first time in the Dáil.

He goes on:

—and the country does not, therefore, yield the density of traffic in either passengers or freight which could provide a reasonably high level of utilisation of the equipment and staff.

In paragraph 29, the Minister says:

I have made a considerable study of European railway finances. In the systems where expenditure, including interest on capital, is equated either absolutely or approximately to revenue there are always factors operating which do not exist here...

Where did the Minister make this "considerable study"? Did he go abroad to make it? What was the date of his researches? Did he give us any idea of what the result of these researches meant to this country? After all, the previous paragraph speaks of certain factors in the economy of the country which have been there for centuries but the Minister had to go abroad to make a considerable study of European railway finances, and then he speaks about the new situation. The new situation—I do not think I am paraphrasing it in too hard a way—is that this is a complete give-in on the Railway Act, 1958. Up to the introduction of the transport legislation, we were led to believe that the whole transport situation could break evenly but now we are told that it requires a subsidy.

In paragraph 30, the Minister says:

The fixed subsidy of £2 million per annum——

That is not in the legislation, by the way—

which will be subject to alternation in the light of circumstances at the end of five years, has been calculated after careful examination of estimates supplied by CIE.

We are now in the position that the system from which the Minister used to reel in admiration of all the great work being done by the Board responsible to him—Dr. Andrews and his people—and about whom the Minister used to talk with admiration and speak of the efforts being made and all their successes, has now to be subsidised. This outfit has now to be subsidised to the extent of £2 million a year over five years—it may not be spread over; it may be given in the first year—ten million pounds, plus £1 million in this year, plus capital development. That is the result from all these people who are so expert and for whom the Minister has so much admiration and of whom he spoke in words of praise such as "dynamic".

He tells us in this paragraph:

When this Bill becomes law, I shall direct the Board——

The Minister who tells us he cannot direct the Board to do anything—

—to make a further tremendous sustained effort to secure and retain traffic and to reduce costs, in the hope that the Bill's subsidy provisions be over-adequate.

What is the situation after all this tremendous success the Board of CIE, under his auspices, have achieved? We are now to give them £11 million with further moneys for capital development and the Minister will direct the Board, although he has told us that he cannot direct them in anything to do with day-to-day administration, to make a further tremendous sustained effort.

This is getting back to the nonsense which the Minister has talked in regard to this Board for so many years. All their efforts are tremendous. He wants to sustain their tremendous efforts and wants to hope that they will not require the £11 million subsidy which this Bill gives over a period not longer than five years. The next paragraph, No. 31, says:

... while the Government have decided to preserve the railway the subsidy is heavy by European standards particularly if European war pensions and capital amortisation are eliminated from the deficits of European railways.

All this tremendous effort which the Minister's people have made, all these dynamic people, is now to be subsidised by a further £11 million. The Minister confessed after his studies of the European situation that this has to be considered as heavy by European standards. Does that mean that the people the Minister appointed to run CIE are inadequate, according to European standards because the odd circumstance has been developed which makes a greater subsidy required here than elsewhere?

In paragraph 32, the Minister says:

A subsidy is only justified because an arterial railway system is essential under conditions likely to prevail for a considerable period.

When did he come to the conclusion that a railway system is essential? We never heard that when branch lines were being closed down or when stations were being closed. Mark you, we were told that if there was to be any closure of branch lines or of stations, there would be a public inquiry. The present Taoiseach told us at the time that we need not put down such an amendment because that was the intention, that if there was to be any closure of a branch line or station, there would be a public inquiry at which public representatives would be able to make their case. Now the Minister tells us that an arterial railway system is essential. That is not what we have been told over the years. He has run away from his responsibilities and taken refuge behind the phrase "day-to-day administration". Everything, according to him, is a matter of day-to-day administration and the pledges given about public inquiries have been falsified. The Minister now says that "an arterial railway system is essential under conditions likely to prevail for a considerable period".

Paragraph 33 which I read for the first time says:

The successive Governments examining the affairs of the public transport service have always tried to frame legislation based on the hope that the entire system might pay its way even if its capital was largely unremunerated.

Then we get a reference to the Pacemaker Report. Apparently the Minister accepts that the view of successive Governments was that there was a hope that the system might pay its way even if "capital was largely unremunerated". That is a very smooth phrase to slide over the reality that a lot of capital has been lost on the railway system.

I remember when I was Minister for Industry and Commerce, we cut out railway employees from the unemployment insurance code on the basis that their employment was so secure that if we took contributions from them, they would never get anything in return. There is an entirely different situation now. Capital has not been remunerated; capital has been lost. I do not know how many families there must be whose ancestors left them railway stocks and shares which were regarded as being the nearest thing to Bank of England or Bank of Ireland securities and which would never go down but which have been lost completely. That is one side of the situation. In fact, in recent legislation, we have wiped off considerable amounts of capital. People have been told they cannot look for a return any longer.

I turn now to the employees' side. We are told the provisions of the Bill will ensure that not merely will there be no running down of the main arterial system but there will be the maintenance and improvement of the system. That was written, of course, a fortnight ago, after considerable parts of the line had been written off. People have been seeing branch lines and stations closed down, rolling stock broken up and station property sold, anything belonging to them in the way of real property dissipated and sold off to other people. Whatever is left is what we are now dealing with as a system that has to be maintained and even improved. I do not know how a system can be improved where branch lines have been closed down, and railway property sold.

In paragraph 36, the Minister sincerely hopes that this very large subsidy will be sufficient. We have heard that story so often before that we are inclined to be sarcastic about it. On page 19, he quotes from the Official Report:

In recommending this Bill to the House, I should like again to explain that it does not in itself purport to provide an immediate solution for the transport difficulties with which we have been beset for so many years.

That was after his chief had told us there are no difficulties in providing an efficient transport system for the whole country. The Minister goes on:

I recommend it, however, as an appreciable advance on the road towards a final solution. The Bill establishes the machinery and the organisation which, in capable hands and properly used, should bring efficiency and prosperity to our transport system.

That was in 1949, if the Minister's statement is correct. Let me repeat those phrases: "appreciable advance", "final solution", "machinery and organisation which, in capable hands", —I suppose he suggests he has provided the capable hands—"and properly used should bring efficiency and prosperity—"

I was quoting the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Morrissey.

Very good, but you were quoting him?

How often have we heard these phrases since? I am sure the Minister thought he provided the capable hand to bring efficiency and prosperity to the transport system. The Minister said at paragraph 38:

The members of the House are entitled to ask what will happen if there is a very marked deterioration in the position. My answer is that the Government have made certain assumptions as with all future planning.

Then he goes on:

(1) It is hoped that the Board, supported by the entire staff, will induce more efficiency and retain existing traffics.

(2) It is hoped that the railway will gain traffic from the growth in the general economy.

(3) There is recognition of the fact that the huge staff of CIE will and should receive increases of remuneration...

When I heard the Minister reading that, I began to wonder what stage of civilisation we are in. Does the Minister believe our system will be operated by people who will not demand increases in wages whenever they are demanded by outside concerns? The Minister need not have patted himself on the back in that regard.

The Minister goes on to say in regard to future increases:

....future increases as a result of the advice of the National Industrial Council will be based on national productivity growth on a basis clearly set forth by the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance.

In other words: "We will give you what we have to give you and nothing more." The Minister continues:

(4) No doubt the staff and management will recognise the special characteristics of the railway finances, the dependence on 20 important customers and on courteous punctual service.

There is another admonitory finger wagged at the employees. I quote again:

(5) It is to be hoped that the staff while securing better remuneration as the nation advances will recognise the need for examining any changes in work procedures whose effect would be to jeopardise the whole future of the railway...

Of those five paragraphs, two are devoted to admonitions and three to hopes. We are giving this subsidy of £11 million and the Minister can say he hopes the position will be better than it has been in the past five years.

In paragraph 44, the Minister says:

The Beddy Report of 1957 foresaw that a reorganisation of the undertaking on the lines recommended would involve very considerable staff redundancy.

Later in the paragraph, he says that these special provisions by way of compensation were intended to facilitate the once and for all major reduction in staff which was expected to be necessary. In paragraph 45, this is summed up:

Up to 31st March, 1964, 1,768 CIE employees were retired on redundancy compensation.

He then gives details of the compensation to the various employees. The Minister slides over what is recognised as a public scandal, that is, the pensions given to CIE employees and about which the Minister has been catechised here by Parliamentary Question, while all the time he has refused to give us any answer and hidden behind day-to-day organisation.

In paragraph 47, the Minister says the extension of the railway redundancy compensation under the transport Act, 1958, and the placing of the cost on the Exchequer were wholly exceptional measures to facilitate the rapid and major reorganisation then foreseen and that it was not intended that these provisions would be maintained after the period of reorganisation. He goes on in paragraph 47 to say:

Leaving aside the heavy cost, these measures have achieved to a large extent their main objectives—

Remember, that this is a paragraph dealing with human beings, people about to be rendered redundant—

—that of enabling CIE to undertake certain major reorganisation schemes for which they could not otherwise have expected to receive full trade Union co-operation.

In other words: "We have fooled the trade unions by our attitude towards a major reorganisation scheme. Now that we have got over that, we hope any new surprises will not be too severe." Whoever wrote the Minister's speech had no appreciation of human conditions.

On page 25, paragraph 49, the Minister is made to say—I am sure he did not say this on his own, or if he did he is more out of touch than I ever believed him to have been with human affairs:

The provision of compulsory compensation by legislation and the generous level of compensation was a recognition of the special problem of a public service which was seen to be contracting and whose permanent staff, having regard to their location and specialised training, would, particularly in former years, have had great difficulty in securing reasonably paid employment elsewhere.

Can the Minister feel happy over these phrases, whether he wrote them or not, that the compensation provisions are generous in respect of the people to whom he refers and having regard to the fact that railway employment was regarded as completely secure?

The Minister throws all that into the balance. These are people who had specialised training, and special location, people in the works at Inchicore, many of whom had settled themselves and their families in a specialised location, such as the vicinity of Inchicore. The Minister thinks that on account of their special location and their specialised training they may have difficulty in finding alternative employment elsewhere, but in spite of that, he concludes that they were generously treated. Would the Minister go to any place where there is a railway yard and talk to the employees there, and mention the word "generous" to them in connection with the treatment they have received? He goes on then and excuses that by saying that no further major reduction in the railway system is now foreseen and that prospects of alternative employment are better than they were.

He might stand them a small beer.

Yes. It is all "small beer" to the Minister. Here is a person trained in a specialised service and if he does not see any prospect of immediate alternative employment, it means the quayside and the boat for him. It means that he will be one of the 300,000 people who, within the next ten years, will have to export themselves to England, according to the Government's plans. The Minister thinks there is no further major reduction in the railway system now foreseeable and therefore he proposes to retain the redundancy provisions that operated prior to the 1958 Act.

The Minister concludes by referring to some matters of minor importance and he goes on to say that CIE are being enabled to use modern selection methods in recruiting clerical staff. He then goes on and repeats the main points in his speech and says:

First, it has been established that CIE have no prospect of paying their way.

Think of this as a conclusion after the reading of 29 pages of a Civil Service brief in May of 1964. He says that it has been established that CIE have no prospect of paying their way. The Minister has the nerve to put forward that as one of the conclusions to which his studies here, on the Continent and elsewhere have led him.

His second conclusion is:

A changeover from rail to road would not solve the financial problem nor provide for certain purposes services as good as the railway.

And finally he says:

As I think I have demonstrated, there is no facile solution to our transport problem.

How long is it since we heard from the Minister, when he came from his various meetings with Dr. Andrews, that we were to get an efficient, satisfactory and adequate transport system? That was a promise and the promise was also made here that no branch line or station would be closed down without first having a public inquiry into the matter. All those promises have been falsified.

The Minister also says: I am convinced that the Board's abbreviated but highly informative report circulated to the Oireachtas and summarising the reorganisation effected in the five years reflects credit on the entire staff.

Perhaps it does reflect credit on the staff. I do not know in what circumstances the staff would take credit for this report but it reflects no credit on the Minister and gives us in this House every right to demand that every part of our railway system should be brought under review in this House by way of Parliamentary Question.

The Minister says that he recommends the Bill to the Dáil, if not with pleasure, at least with the confidence that no better solution exists at this time. He should recommend the Bill to the House with shame. It is a confession of weakness. The towel is now in the ring and all he has said over the years with regard to the transport system has been completely falsified. He is now coming to the House with his cap in his hand, asking for more money for these dynamic people whom he appointed. At a later stage, I propose to move that we bring back public transport under the control of this House so that we shall be able to have an examination of even the day to day administration that is required after the fiasco that has been made by those to whom the Minister gave unfettered control. Is the Minister running away from his Parliamentary responsibility in regard to what is happening to our transport system.

We propose to examine, not merely CIE, rail and bus, but all our transport services. We propose to examine the airlines. The Minister often talks about how various parts of our transport services are meeting their operational expenses. We are not interested in these but we want to know how far they pay their way; are they able to buy the planes in which they carry passengers; if they are not able to do that, where do they get the money to buy them? I want to examine also our shipping services. We have a shipping line. I do not know how many ships they have but very few of their vessels ever come to this country. They are run at a loss and we are subsidising them. We are told that they are engaged in carrying cargo but they are not engaged in carrying cargoes between natives of this country.

That does not arise in this Bill.

Ships are transport.

The Rosslare and Fishguard railway comes under this Bill and they use ships.

I suppose the Dún Laoghaire terminal would not have to do with transport either, but I think it has to do with it. The Minister also ran away from that. He was going to push across this "small beer" but the Corporation faced him and before he could face the Dáil, he ran away from them.

This has nothing whatever to do with the Transport Bill before the House.

I have already pointed out that these matters do not arise on this Bill.

This is another of the runaway victories which the present Government have to their credit. The Government run away and their opponents get the victory.

As far as the Labour Party and the trade unions are concerned, we feel that while this Bill has many shortcomings to which I propose to refer briefly to-night, we welcome it for no other reason than that pointed out by the Minister in his introductory statement. It marks the conversion of the Minister and his Government to a policy that we have been advocating down through the years. The Minister at last admits that he believes the experience over the five years since the last Transport Bill finally disposes of the hope that either the railway, or the undertaking as a whole, can be put on a self-supporting basis.

He goes on to tell us that the Government have therefore decided to preserve the railway system, subject to further concentration and reorganisation as may prove practicable and desirable and to provide an annual subsidy. It gives no pleasure to say to the Minister at this juncture: "I told you so." I suppose we would be less than human if we did not invite the Minister to cast his mind back to the debate in this House during the passage of the 1958 Act, and, indeed, to previous Transport Bills as well.

We always maintained that the transport system in this country could not be a viable economic unit and carry out the other duties imposed on it by the legislation aimed at providing an adequate transport service by rail and road. We went for the conversion of the Minister. The main regret we have in this regard is, having made that conversion and having denounced the Government's policy, that the provisions of the Bill fall very far short of what we would deem to be necessary to implement that policy. We always said, particularly in 1958, that this break-even concept was unrealistic and unjustified.

I remember when the present Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, introduced the Bill, the benches behind him were full and anybody who suggested to him that the system he was about to impose on the transport industry in this country was some kind of hysteric, was slightly mentally deranged. Voices behind the Minister were cheering him home on it. We would be less than human if we did not point out these sentences in the Minister's introductory statement, which is now apparently Government policy. These are taken almost literally from the speeches made by Labour and trade union people down through the years on transport.

To grasp the extent of the conversion, one has to study the attitude and the public statements of the Minister himself in this connection. I should think that of all the members of the Cabinet, the Minister for Transport and Power must have been the hardest man to convince in this connection. I have followed the Minister's statements on policy down through the years in relation to public transport, and particularly in relation to the desirability of State subvention for the industry. I have made notes on some of his utterances.

I invite Deputies to cast their minds back to 1960 when he was addressing the Dublin Society of Chartered Accountants. He conveyed in no uncertain terms what he felt about it at that stage. He said:

There should be an end to public subsidies in any form whatsoever for surface internal transport.

He doled out these words of wisdom to the Dublin Society of Chartered Accountants—that there should be an end to subsidy of any form for internal surface transport. I am glad he has changed his mind in that connection. He went along, of course, to a sheltered gathering on 26th April, 1961. It was a comhairle ceantair meeting of his own Party and he said he was going to insist that public transport would pay its way in this country without any subvention or subsidy from the Government. He repeated this at intervals. He only waited until the 6th April, 1962, to go to a meeting of Tuairim in Clonmel and he is quoted as saying there that CIE had to pay their way because the age of subsidies was rapidly passing away, that currently operated subsidies were deadly, breeding inefficiency and bolstered up out of out-moded techniques. We said, and we continue to say, during all these ramblings of the Minister, that that was a daft, unrealistic policy for public transport for any Government to have.

At the meeting of the Institute of Transport in Dublin on 20th February, 1963, he informed these people, all of whom were engaged in transport and the majority of whom were engaged in public transport, that subsidies were not in any way justified per se. He did not believe us of course. As recently as the 21st June last year, when the transport legislation must have been actively engaging the brains of his advisers, when it must have been under active consideration and when CIE had all their chief executives writing reports on the matter, the Minister got up at the CIE wagon works in Limerick and said he was forecasting the unlikelihood of any general subsidy for CIE. He repeated that subsidies breed inefficiency and indifference. I have quoted all that, just to show the extent of the conversion which the Minister has illustrated here today.

I still believe it.

You may convince but not convert him.

I shall quote from the Minister's speech today:

The experience over the five year reorganisation period and the Pacemaker study disposed finally of the hope that either the railway or the undertaking as a whole would be put on a self-supporting basis. The Government have decided, therefore, after very full and careful consideration, to preserve the railway system subject to such further concentration and reorganisation as may prove practicable and desirable, and to provide a fixed annual subsidy with the aid of which the Board should be expected to break even.

I do not blame the Minister for having seen the light. I welcome his conversion. Our only regret is that, having been converted to that extent, it is a pity he did not include provisions in the Bill which would enable the new Government policy to be carried out. At any rate, we have the Minister converted to the idea which we have been advocating, that the transport industry could not pay without a subsidy. We welcome that and we congratulate him on the decision he has made.

We come to the subsidy itself. The terms of this Bill provide that there is to be a subsidy of £2 million per year for the next five years. If the Minister feels that any board can carry on a programme such as he outlines here, and which we all hope they will be able to carry out on a subsidy of £2 million per year for the next five years, quite obviously he is living in cloud-cuckoo land. Nobody outside of Grangegorman would suggest, at least on the basis of the figure he gave in reply to a question of mine here today—a loss for the financial year ending 31st March last of £1.6 million—that a subvention of £2 million per annum will meet the requirements of CIE. We know that in this annual subsidy of £2 million the first charge CIE will have to meet is the sinking fund on their Transport Stock, which, in the year ending 31st March, 1963, amounted to £909,184.

Therefore, one can immediately write off £1 million of the £2 million of annual subsidy as payment of interest and sinking fund on Transport Stock. That leaves CIE with £1 million to meet their operating losses and their net deficit each year. What about the situation at the end of five years? I wonder has the Minister taken into account that inevitably money values will change between now and five years hence. That has been the history of our system since pre-war days, and the Minister knows that the £1 million CIE will have available to meet the deficit this year will not be £1 million in real value in five years' time.

Has the Minister taken into account that CIE inevitably will have to meet increased costs in the running of the railways and other undertakings? He knows that well, and if he does not the Minister for Industry and Commerce can forecast for him that within two years, at the latest, CIE employees, in common with employees in other industries, will be demanding the tenth round increase in wages and salaries.

It would be inappropriate here to refer to the proven inadequacy of the ninth round: that is a matter for another debate, for another Minister, but nobody will deny that within two years CIE will have to meet the tenth round as well as the general tendency prevailing in industry towards a shorter working week. The trade unions will insist on having comparable conditions, comparable rates of wages and salaries, with outside industries. As they have done in the past, they will succeed in securing them. That will be again an added increase on CIE costs, again to come out of the net £1 million on which they are supposed to run the undertaking.

Does anybody suggest that the pension scheme and sick pay arrangements in CIE should not be jacked up considerably to keep them in line with such schemes in other State and semi-State bodies? The Minister may say that if all these things happen—I do not think he can deny they will— CIE can recover by increasing their charges, both for passengers and goods. I do not know whether it was the Minister who said—some Government spokesman did within the past year— that we had reached the stage where increased costs on CIE could no longer be put over on the public— that by increasing fares or tonnage rates there would be traffic losses at the other end.

A further charge on the net £1 million CIE will have at their disposal is the provision in this Bill—a very hefty provision—that henceforth CIE will have to meet out of their own resources compensation payments to their employees. As we all know, the 1958 Transport Act wisely provided that compensation arising out of redundancy in CIE could be recouped by the Exchequer. This Bill says that is to end.

From now on, all that will be a charge on CIE, to be paid out of their own resources. To give some idea of the immensity of that obligation, it is well to show the cost of redundancy compensation since the passing of the 1958 Act and which was a charge on the Exchequer. In 1958-59 the sum was £37,500, in 1959-60, £109,870, in 1960-61, £325,853, in 1961-62, £238,431, and in 1962-63, £311,500, making a total of £1,023,000, all paid by the Exchequer. Henceforth any redundancy payments that will fall must be made out of the resources of CIE who will be dependent, in relation to their operating losses, on the subsidy of £2 million per year out of which, as I have already outlined, £1 million will have disappeared.

The Minister states that Government policy is to preserve the railway system and that provision in the Bill ensures that there will be no running down of the main arterial system. On the contrary, there will be maintenance and improvement of the system. The decision has been made that a railway is essential in this country, even at heavy cost to the taxpayer. The Minister says that no private operator would take on the obligation. I suggest the Minister spoke with tongue in cheek when he committed himself to the policy we have been advocating for so long of keeping the railways.

In section 3 of the Bill the Minister proposes to muzzle and hamstring the Board of CIE, who are expected to carry out Government policy in this respect. We are told that the Board shall not incur any expenditure that is properly chargeable to capital unless they are satisfied the expenditure is essential for the efficient operation of their undertaking or unless it is to make a profit. We all know that CIE in recent times have been embarking on a campaign to make railway travel more attractive. They have embarked on schemes and have invested capital in new coaches, and a darn good job they have been making of it. The public realise that and the Board are to be congratulated on their initiative and on the progress they are making.

They are still making these new coaches for better, more comfortable, travel. To my mind, if they are to carry out the obligations the Minister imposes on them in this Bill, they will have to stop doing that because the rail section of the organisation certainly cannot be described as making a profit at the moment: it cannot be described as a remunerative section of CIE. Therefore, I ask the Minister this question. Is it not true that that section of the Bill will hamstring the Board in relation to that small aspect of the vast undertaking?

Take the maintenance and the restoration of the permanent way— a vital factor in railway operations. To relay a whole section of line in a service that is not making a profit is unremunerative. If I were a member of the Board of CIE and got this Bill, as an Act, handed into my hands I should feel that my Board was debarred from expending capital on the restoration and maintenance of long stretches of the permanent way because that happens to be a section of the organisation that is unremunerative.

I feel that the Board cannot interpret the legislation in any way other than as a piece of legislation designed with a view to letting the railway run down. The Government may not be strong enough to say plainly: "Eventually, we want to go over altogether to road transport" but, by writing this into the Act, by restricting the Board in their capital expenditure, slowly but surely over the next five years, and the five years after that, the railways will be allowed to run down because of the restrictive clause here which will not permit the board of CIE to invest their capital in a manner which they feel might be done and should be done.

The Minister is probably aware, as well, that while great advances have been made over the years regarding office accommodation and canteens for the staffs of CIE this restrictive section will prohibit the board of CIE from making any further advances for providing better office accommodation or canteens for the staff because that will be a capital investment which is unremunerative and which can be deemed to be nonessential. I sincerely ask the Minister to have another look at that section. I do not know what he intended when he put it in but I hope I have pointed out some of the dangers that lie in it and the interpretation that any diligent, intelligent member of the Board would be obliged by law to put on it and to operate it accordingly. I do not think that there is any other State body so restricted or similarly restricted in relation to capital investment. Maybe there is, but I know none of them. Certainly, up to now, CIE were never restricted in that regard.

I feel it is an insult to the integrity and honesty of the Board of CIE and to the personnel of the Board that the Minister should so restrict them and lay down conditions as to the manner in which they shall invest capital, at the same time charging them with running the organisation efficiently. If the Minister thinks the Board are inefficient or dishonest—I do not—he should sack them and put in some other Board. If he has any regard for their honour and integrity, he should relieve them of that kind of shackle in a Transport Bill.

In relation to the provisions for compensation in the Bill, the trade unions are naturally worried because of a major departure in this regard. There is provision for the payment of compensation as a direct consequence of the Board having ceased to provide or having permanently reduced any transport service by rail or inland waterway or having substituted diesel for steam traction or of the making of an Order under section 9 in relation to a specified crossing. In other words, the compensatory provision is maintained in respect of anybody who becomes redundant because there is a change-over from steam to diesel locomotion. The Minister points out at one stage of his speech that that operation is complete at the moment so the provision there is really not necessary but where the provision is necessary it is significantly omitted from the Bill.

There is provision for compensation in the rail section under certain conditions. There is no provision at all, good, bad or indifferent, for anybody who becomes redundant if he happens to be employed in the road side of the CIE organisation. I refer to the road passenger people—drivers and conductors—who have no coverage at all under this Bill for redundancy. We know the difficulties that arose through the introduction of the one-man bus operation. I understand that CIE intend to extend the one-man bus service and that, in fact, buses of that description are still being built in Inchicore. If that is so, there is bound to be redundancy among busmen, but they are absolutely excluded in this Bill in relation to any compensation that might be paid to them because of their becoming redundant in that regard. The Minister should have another look at that. He should ensure that he will not run into trouble and that CIE will not run into trouble by the further implementation of the one-man bus without adequate compensatory provisions in this Bill.

Even in respect of rail staff, there is significantly omitted from this Bill a provision in the 1958 Act whereby anybody who became redundant because of reorganisation within CIE was entitled to compensation—introducing new methods, changing office routine, changing the accountancy system, changing administrative connections with their customers. Under the 1958 Act, clerks and stationmasters who were declared redundant secured compensation because of that. In this Act, that is left out. The trade unions concerned found that particular provision of the 1958 Act very helpful indeed in so far as it enabled them, with enthusiasm, to co-operate with the management of CIE in relation to reorganisation within the different sections of the undertaking. The management of CIE were in a position to come along and to say to the trade unions concerned: "Look, we propose to reorganise this office and the net result will be that one, two, three of your people will be displaced from employment." There was a provision in the 1958 Act that people displaced from employment in that connection should receive compensation. That is omitted from this Bill and I hope the Minister is not so native as to think that the management of CIE can continue to get the co-operation of the trade unions in their reorganisation schemes when this vital provision is left out of the Bill.

The Minister may say—I think he suggested it in his introductory speech —that the period of reorganisation should be over now. Perhaps, he is right but I should like to feel, and certainly so would the CIE trade unions, that the period of the organisation is not over and that further measures of improvement, and further improvement in the standard of service in the whole transport industry, can be brought about by new methods. The union would certainly lean over backwards to co-operate in that regard provided the provisions that were written into the 1958 Act are rewritten into this. If they are not, on the Minister's head be it, if the manager of CIE comes along tomorrow or next week and says: "I can no longer get co-operation from the trade unions in relation to reorganisation." I hope the Minister will wisely have another look at that.

That is another matter in the Bill which requires comment, even on the Second Stage, because it represents a complete departure from transport legislation as we know it and as our predecessors knew it since 1924. In all the transport legislation that has passed through this House since 1924, the provisions of the 1924 Railways Act have been repeated in regard to the method by which the clerical staff of the railway companies and the national transport concern are recruited. It was laid down, year after year, that entry to the clerical staff was to be by open competitive examination. That was written in originally when we had private railway companies in 1924 because obviously there was prevalent abuse in the manner in which staffs were recruited—mainly through influence and patronage. The 1924 Act wrote that off and subsequent Transport Acts up to and including the 1958 Act recognised the wisdom of the proper manner of recruitment.

As far as I know, and I know something about it, it worked very well indeed. At no stage can I remember any chairman, manager or board of CIE indicating in even the slightest way to the Transport Salaried Staffs Association—the trade union catering for that grade of officer of CIE—that there was something even remotely wrong with the system or that they were not getting good results from it. The first we knew of any concern with the manner of recruitment was when we read the Bill for the first time. I should like to know where the idea came from.

Instead of the written, competitive, open examination the Minister proposes that the clerical staff of CIE may be recruited in any of four ways. The moment the Bill becomes law, of course, CIE will operate it and take their choice of four ways. They can use any or all or two of these ways, according to the Bill. They can do it by written examination or by oral examination or by interview—whatever that might be. There is a fourth method which gives a blanket cover to CIE, "by any other test or tests that the Board consider to be appropriate".

The political test would fit into that

All sorts of tests would fit into that. I am not referring to the present Minister personally or to the present Government or to whoever might be in office or whoever the chairman of CIE might be in years to come but surely it is blatantly open to abuse of all sorts, that the clerical staff of CIE may be recruited under this Bill by any test the Board consider appropriate. I do not think the present Minister would do it but it is conceivable there would be a villain of a Minister, or a chairman of CIE who would not have the standards of the present chairman, or some head-case of a manager or some political appointee——

Does the Deputy know there is no legislative provision for examinations for the clerical staff of any other State company? CIE need not have any at all; it does not exist elsewhere.

Wait a moment. Since 1924 this House has wisely insisted that the clerical staff of the transport undertaking of the country should be recruited by open competitive written examination and CIE have never complained to us about that.

It is not in the Aer Lingus Act.

Perhaps CIE have a crib in that regard, that we oblige them to hold a separate examination and that may be cumbersome and expensive as well. If they want to get away from that I could understand it and if they said: "We do not want to hold a separate examination for CIE clerks but to do as the ESB does—recruit our clerks on the basis of the results of the Leaving Certificate examination", I would not see anything wrong in that, if CIE feel the present system is cumbersome and said they would recruit from the Leaving Certificate examination but I certainly do not go along with the suggestion that they can recruit by written examination, oral examination or interview or any other test or tests that the Board consider to be appropriate.

I hope the Minister will see the wisdom of taking out that stupid ridiculous section which is open to blatant and violent abuse, skulduggery, patronage and political favouritism of all sorts. CIE, as I have said, have never appeared to have a grievance as far as the trade unions know. We got no indication that they wanted to do anything new in that regard.

Finally, I am sorry there is not some provision in the Bill for the pensioners in the conciliation grades. The Minister has heard me often enough before, and other Deputies on both sides of the House, decrying the very low level of pensions of many people in various grades of CIE who are now retired, people who gave very long and faithful service to the transport industry and who are now on pensions as low as 6/-, 8/-, 12/-, 20/-, 25/-, and 30/- a week. I had hoped that the Minister would have taken his courage in his hands when introducing the Transport Bill—there may not be another one for many years—and would have written in a section which would oblige CIE to pay reasonably decent pensions to these people who are now retired for some years and who gave long, faithful service. There are not many of them left now. It would have been a gesture of goodwill, involving very little expense, to pay these unfortunate people higher rates. Many of these people are living on the breadline, on starvation diet, after 40, 42 or 43 years' service with CIE, the Great Southern Railways, the Great Southern and Western Railway and their predecessors. Perhaps between now and the remaining Stages of the Bill, the Minister would review the matter. I can assure him that the people concerned would be very grateful if he would give further consideration to it.

The Minister lived up to his usual form when moving the Second Reading of this Bill when he left five members of the Fine Gael Party who were on these benches with only one copy of his speech. It was the form we have been used to in the past few years of consistent insolence and discourtesy to members of the House. I welcome this Bill for one thing, that it gives us an opportunity of asking the Minister questions in the House and I intend to ask him some questions and will insist on his answering them.

I have a whole library of letters from you, Sir, in regard to questions that were disallowed, informing me when I put down questions relative to CIE that it was not the Minister's function, that it was a matter of day to day administration. The last question that I had proposed to ask the Minister was inspired by the fact that I had been informed that a large number of luxury buses had been purchased by CIE—Leyland Leopard—it does not matter what the names are. I had been informed that these buses were 36 feet long. The question was disallowed. I could not ascertain whether or not we had buses of that length. I put down a Parliamentary Question to the Minister's colleague, the Minister for Local Government, asking him what was the legal maximum length and width of mechanically-propelled public service vehicles and the Minister told me that it was 36 feet. In a supplementary question, I asked if the Minister could tell me how long this order in regard to 36 feet had been law and the Minister replied that this would have been indicated in the Road Traffic Act regulations, that is, the Construction, Equipment and Use of Vehicles Regulations of 1963 and that they became effective, so far as the Minister could remember, in October or November last.

Here we have one Minister who wants safety on the roads and another Minister who gets permission to put a bigger monster on the road—bigger and better, like the Barnum and Bailey Circus. I had hoped that somebody would tell me if such buses would be allowed to cross the Border into Northern Ireland or if they would be too long under the regulations prescribed there, or if the Ulster Transport Authority would be allowed to use that type of bus.

The Department of Transport and Power woke up and some time afterwards I got a letter from the Minister's Secretary saying that he was desired by Mr. Erskine Childers, T.D., Minister for Transport and Power, to refer to the recent question put down by me, which was ruled out of order by the Ceann Comhairle, on the question of the number and description of the luxury road coaches recently purchased by CIE and that the Minister had asked him to send me the attached copy of a Press release dated 5th November, 1962, about the new Worldmaster coaches being introduced by CIE for their motor coach tours.

The Minister had appealed to you, Sir, and had told you that this was a matter of day to day administration. You sent me a letter on 14th April saying that you regretted you had to disallow the question addressed by me to the Minister for Transport and Power regarding luxury road coaches recently purchased by CIE on the ground that the Minister had no function or responsibility in the matter.

This little day to day business was merely the purchase of about 40 buses. God knows what they cost—perhaps £300,000 or £400,000. Of course, the Minister probably had come around to thinking about £400,000 as a mere bagatelle having regard to the fact that he considers £75,000 only "small beer".

When Deputies from all the Opposition Parties pleaded with the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Lemass, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, now the Taoiseach, and pointed out to him that what they were about to do in the destruction of railways was not good policy, the 1958 Act was brought in by the Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, and in the course of the Second Reading debate, he implied that we were a little too meticulous about the Bill. I was a little suspicious of him but he disarmed me and he disarmed the whole House. I will quote from the famous volume of the Official Report—No. 167—which the Minister has quoted at such length in his speech. He did not quote this little bit:

In cases of decisions to close down a branch railway line, the Bill says two months' notice must be given. I do not think we need write in there that during these two months the board will have to hear the deputation from the local council of the town losing the railway service or meet the representations of the trade unions who may have a point of view. Of course, they will do it. Indeed, the whole purpose of the requirement to give two months' notice was to provide a statutory period during which these inevitable representations could be entertained. It is far better to let our knowledge of what will happen guide our judgment in this matter than to be seeking to write into the Bill a rigid statutory safeguard.

I lost a lot of confidence in this House because I believed that and the former Minister for Industry and Commerce, the Minister's predecessor, just ran out on that. It makes me very careful when I hear Fianna Fáil Ministers saying: "Let that section go through. That is quite all right. I will not apply the letter of the law. You need not put such and such a clause in. That will be looked after". It shows that we must approach this Bill with great care and must see to it that every comma in it is examined.

My Party intend to put down amendments to this Bill and there will be questions regarding it. We are forced to do this because of the Minister's conduct. As I pointed out, the Minister refused to answer a question by me in regard to the purchase of these luxury buses for CIE. The following week he answered a question—I challenged him on it—in regard to the purchase of airplanes for Aer Lingus. I can only take one thing from that— deliberate insolence and discourtesy by the Minister to a member of this House. It is very important that the people should be able to approach their elected representatives to have them ask questions about what is being done with public money. It is a defeat of our whole democratic process when we have insolent and discourteous Ministers refusing to answer these questions.

The questions I have put to the Minister are not matters of ordinary day to day administration. Over the past three or four years, I have asked him questions concerning the profit and loss account of the bus service between Waterford and Tramore. The Minister replied that it was impossible to go into details and pick out the Tramore line. I brought him in here on the adjournment and I bombarded him with more questions. I asked him was this line a paying proposition, but he was unable to find that out. Yet I heard him say in the House a few minutes ago that:

234 provincial road passenger services are operated by the Board and of these almost two-thirds earn an annual revenue of less than £5,000 each per annum and account for only 15 per cent of the total revenue in this section. 91 per cent of all the provincial road passenger services earn only 57 per cent of the total revenue.

Why did the Minister not tell me that? How long is the House to put up with that kind of carry-on? I want to see the railways continued. I want to see CIE continued. If it were possible for me to block this money going through and insist that the Minister be responsible for every £ whenever we ask him about it, I would do so. I would ask Deputies not to vote for it.

We have another famous pronunciamento in the Minister's speech. This is the effect of the Pacemaker study. God knows how much it cost and if anybody will ever read it, even in the office of CIE.

The Government had also to consider the value of the railway system to the country. It represents a vast national investment and offers advantages many of which could not be provided by road transport.

From all the benches on this side of the House, that was thundered at the Minister, but he would not listen to it. Now the Minister has to eat his own vomit and say that he and the Government were wrong.

It has nothing to do with the closing of railways.

I would not tear them up and knock down the bridges.

It has nothing to do with what I have said.

I am quoting the Minister's speech:

The Government have decided, therefore, after very full and careful consideration, to preserve the railway system subject to such further concentration and reorganisation as may prove practicable and desirable and to provide a fixed annual subsidy with the aid of which the Board should be expected to break even.

The Minister was not saying that when he came in to dig up one of the smallest railways in Ireland. The Minister also referred to the railways that lost money. He said there was no use maintaining railways that were carrying only a handful of passengers. I agree with him. When we came in and pointed out to him that for his trial break-up, he was going to break up a railway carrying an enormous number of people—the Waterford-Tramore line—sentence of death was passed on that railway.

We tried to persuade him to stay his hand. Representations were made to Kingsbridge, but Dr. Andrews refused to meet us. In the early part of the campaign to wreck the Tramore railway, the Minister's officials at Kingsbridge said it was losing £3,000 a year and then they said it was losing £9,000 a year. The word of the Taoiseach, then Minister for Industry and Commerce, was ratted on by these officials when the local authorities in Tramore asked for the figure of the number of people carried in the last years of its existence. The Taoiseach said there would be full consultation. There was no consultation at all because we could get no figures and no co-operation from the officials at Kingsbridge. The Minister had his mind made up. He admitted he took full responsibility for everything these men did.

Then, when the damage was done, we discovered that the total fare paying passengers carried in the year ending 31st December, 1959, the last year of that railway's existence, numbered 551,900. This was no ghost railway. This was a railway with full trains. This was a railway consistently butchered by the Minister's efficiency boys up in Kingsbridge. They used to make fun of this railway, with its old-fashioned engines and old-fashioned carriages. These old-fashioned engines and carriages could carry 2,000 people to Tramore in 20 minutes. Then the pseudo-supermen came along and, just after the war, they said: "We will do a right job on this railway. We will dieselise it." They were going to put new diesel engines on this seven mile railway. The Minister told us diesel suited the long haul. They dieselised. And that is another thing about which we will never know the cost. We had two diesel engines and lovely steel coaches and they were able to go to Tramore in five minutes under the time taken by the old train. They needed only an engine driver. There was no fireman. That was some saving. But there was one snag. The old system took 2,000 people out in 20 minutes and this wonderful new system took out 600 in 15 minutes.

Small beer.

There is nothing about it in this Bill anyway.

The only chance we have of saying anything to the Minister about his misdeeds is when he comes in here looking for £2 million.

There is nothing in the Bill about this railway because it has gone.

That is what I mean.

The Minister would not let anyone talk at all if he could help it.

(Interruptions.)

I remember Deputy Casey saying in this House that your function was to howl us down.

That has nothing to do with this Bill.

If everybody talks about the 611 miles of line closed at the same length as Deputy Lynch spoke upon nine miles of line, we will be here until Christmas.

I will find it in the Minister's brief and I will show I can be in order on this. The Minister had, of course, experts who went over the costings. I have it here now at page 10. I think the Minister has forgotten what he read only a couple of hours ago:

While the closure of branch lines does not generally mean loss of traffic, the closure of certain unprofitable secondary lines could, depending on the extent to which they act as feeders to the main system, have a serious effect on the remainder of the system. The discontinuance of services on all of this 750 miles would in fact reduce the railway to an unworkable unit.

I think I am entitled to talk about this. We all know, of course, what the £75,000 is now. We are talking about £2 million here and we want to make sure, before this Bill passes, what will happen to this £2 million and how efficiently it will be used. I am trying to tell the House how inefficiently the Minister's Department has worked. Here is where the experts come in.

The efficiency or inefficiency of the Minister's Department is not in question. That would be a matter for an Estimate.

Might I be allowed to read from the Minister's brief? Page 5, paragraph 9:

Before closing a branch line, CIE carry out a detailed analysis of the cost of operation and revenue of rail services on the branch and of substitute road services, and where there is no prospect of economic operation of the branch and where a "betterment" in net receipts would accrue by substituting road for rail transport, it is decided to close the branch.

I never heard a script so much quoted as my script is on this occasion. It is really splendid.

I think the Minister is indulging again in his usual insolence. We are entitled to quote him.

I am complimented by it; I am delighted.

You had all the boyos on this——

The Deputy should address the Chair.

I am sorry. The Minister is interrupting, Sir.

The Deputy should not seek excuses. He knows the rules.

I am not looking for excuses. I am drawing attention to the fact that the Minister was interrupting me. You may not have heard him.

The Deputy should use the third person.

These wonderful experts did their job, according to the Minister. When we went to the experts, however, we could not be told anything about the line. They held out on us like the Minister holds out on us here when we ask questions. In the debate on this railway line, the Minister assured the House that it was the intention of CIE to replace this service with an equally adequate service. Let me repeat that: he gave a guarantee, an undertaking, or whatever you like to call it, that, when this railway line was closed, he would replace it with a service that would be equal and adequate.

I have a letter here from the Tramore Town Commissioners. When the Minister wrecked the railway, there were two public conveniences in the station. The station now belongs to the Tramore Town Commissioners. They bought it. The Minister's experts smashed up the two public conveniences in the station. The Minister promised that the bus service would be equally as good as the rail service. A bus terminal was put up in Tramore alongside where the station used to be. The Tramore Town Commissioners have been in correspondence with the Area Manager of CIE. I have a letter here:

9th March, 1964.

Area Manager,

CIE,

Waterford.

Dear Sir,

At the last meeting of the Tramore Town Commissioners I was directed to bring your attention to the necessity for sanitary accommodation at the Bus Depot at Tramore.

Yours faithfully,

T. F. Casey,

Town Clerk.

This is the reply from the office of the Area Manager, dated 20th March. He must have sent up his letter by runner to CIE for instructions. The railways must not have been working.

Dear Sir,

I have received your letter of 9th inst. regarding the necessity for toilet accommodation at Tramore.

I agree that toilet accommodation in the vicinity of the Bus Depot at Tramore would be an added amenity and to assist the Commissioners in this matter my Company would be prepared to offer a suitable site for the erection by the Commissioners of such accommodation.

No doubt you will let me know in course if the Commissioners wish to take up this offer.

This is the kind of carry-on to which people are treated by CIE. The Minister promised he would give a service equally as good as the service that was there. Now the Minister's official tells the Clerk of the Tramore Town Commissioners to erect the convenience themselves, and put it down to the ratepayers. When we tried to dissuade the Minister from tearing up the railway line, we were told that there would be a kind of hidden taxation in the form of a railway road grant. I pointed out that an enormous sum of money would have to be spent to allow a bus to go out there, and that bridges would have to be taken down, but we were told that everything would be all right. I put down a question to the Minister for Local Government today asking the amount of railway road grants allotted to (a) Waterford County Borough and (b) to Waterford County Council in each year for the past three years. He replied——

How does that relate to the Bill?

A Deputy

The Deputy is off the rails.

That is a little stale now. All the rails have gone to Czechoslovakia.

I do not see how a reply from the Minister for Local Government has any relevance to the subject matter of the Bill. I have allowed the Deputy a good deal of latitude.

I am pointing out the villainy of the Minister and CIE. The Minister is looking for £2 million, and he has other ways of extracting money from the taxpayer.

I am concerned only with what is in the Bill. Whatever the faults or virtues of the Minister, I am concerned only with the faults or virtues of this Bill.

The Minister said that before closing a branch line, CIE carry out a detailed analysis of the cost of operation. I am pointing out that we will be giving those people £2 million of the taxpayers' money in a very short time, and I am showing some of their mistakes, and how careful we need to be——

I drew the Deputy's attention to the fact that he was about to quote a reply given by the Minister for Local Government to a question addressed to him by the Deputy.

I am now quoting from the Minister's brief.

The Deputy may not travel part of the way. The reply he got from the Minister for Local Government has no relevance whatever to the Bill.

I bow to your ruling, Sir. I want now to draw your attention to what is in the Minister's brief introducing the Bill.

I hope it is relevant.

Surely what the Minister said is relevant.

It has been passed as relevant.

You allowed it.

I may hold that in evidence against you.

"It could be".

The Minister quoted from the famous volume 167. I was referring to the promises and undertakings given by the Minister. I want to draw the attention of the House to the fact—and I want to let the Minister know, too—that his officials have ratted on the undertakings solemnly given in this House and to the people of Tramore and Waterford in regard to the public convenience which was asked for by the Tramore Town Commissioners.

I am not endeavouring to be out of order, but I want also to point out that since the Minister started digging up the railway lines, £825,000 was pilfered out of the Road Fund to make up for his depredations. That is not included here. I would not be allowed to congratulate the Dún Laoghaire ratepayers?

The Deputy told us at the outset that this was a very serious matter.

It is a very serious matter. It is no harm to see that the Minister has changed his mind about the value of money and that he will be so lavish and so generous——

I advise the Deputy not to indulge in irrelevancy.

This is not irrelevant. I want to talk now about the forgotten men, the old pensioners of CIE, the men who made the railways run, worked long hours, and brought the trains in in time. I see many of the diesel monsters coming into the chill of Waterford station, ten, 15, or 20 minutes late. It would be a matter to send away to Ripley if the trains came in late when they were run by those fine old servants of the company, whom the Minister has thrown out with pensions of 12/- a week. The Minister deliberately avoided the storm of protests raised in the House about his commission on CIE pensions. Those forgotten men deserve better from him and from this country. When he is looking at their case, he should think in terms of "small beer" or perhaps the price of a few small whiskeys would put them on their feet. There are not many of them. I think there are only 1,049. The Minister is very unfortunate in his public relations. His public relations and the manner in which he treats this House can be described as putrid.

Section 14 of the Bill says:

Notwithstanding anything contained in section 89 of the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Act, 1898, the Board, in exercise of its powers under that section, may nominate at any time, if it so thinks fit, persons who are not members of the Board as directors of the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company.

I must make inquiries about that. I am interested in this Fishguard-Rosslare route. We can see what the Minister is doing now. He intends bringing all the traffic through Dublin. God knows, it is bad enough with the existing congestion and even though the Minister may put up a new pier, you will have more people coming in. The trains will not be able to take them up to Holyhead; they will be standing in the trains from London. Then they will be thrown out on Dún Laoghaire Pier. This is the usual type of idiocy in which we indulge here. The Minister may find that the situation will be as it is in Dublin where you cannot park a car or pass along the street. There is another entrance port——

That is hardly relevant.

Of course it is.

It is relevant. I read the section of the Bill.

The section says that a person may be appointed.

Yes. I want that person to go over there and I should like the Minister to instruct that person— whoever this favoured person is to be; evidently, the Minister has somebody in mind—to go there. That gentleman should be instructed by the Minister and his experts at Kingsbridge to say: "We think British Railways should construct another of these passenger and car carrying ferries in order to bring the ferry into Rosslare." In this famous Act of 1898——

We are doing everything of that kind at the moment.

It is nice to hear the Minister replying.

I answered a question about it the other day.

We will have to write to Ripley. Believe it or not, the Minister for Transport and Power answered a question; he did not say it was the day-to-day routine. The Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Act, 1898, guaranteed a passenger and goods service through Waterford for six days of the week. That was given away by the Government in 1933 and the then Minister's predecessor ran away from the Waterford Harbour Commissioner and gave him no support when British Railways decided to take the passenger service away. The Government could have stood on that and could have made them stick to their agreement. They had guaranteed it.

Would the Deputy relate that to the Bill?

We have it here, the reference to the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Act, 1898.

I suggest the Deputy could raise that more relevantly on the Committee Stage.

I was explaining, through you, Sir, that if a man is to be appointed to sit on the Board, the Minister should instruct him about the conditions under which they are working under this Act.

The Deputy knows that it is the principle of the Bill which is under discussion. The details which the Deputy is endeavouring to discuss would arise relevantly on the Committee Stage.

That will be lovely. I am glad you reminded me of that, Sir. I can have "a go" at section 14 on the Committee Stage.

The Deputy will probably be ruled out of order.

I will not. On page 7, the Minister says:

At repeated intervals I pressed the Board of CIE to improve their publicity and advertising, both in order to get more business and make known to the public the tremendous campaign of reorganisation and the closer liaison with the public effected through sales market research staff.

Not a word about public relations. Not a word about goodwill. The people had an enormous amount of goodwill for CIE and the railways. The Minister has shot a lot of holes into that goodwill but there is still an enormous amount of it left. It was sincerely felt by the people and despite the blackguarding they have got from the Minister's officials in CIE, and the Minister himself, that goodwill is still there and what remains should be nurtured.

I have said here on several occasions that it is important that CIE should exist and that the railway lines should stay because if a group of Japanese, or Czechoslovakians or Germans— they would be the favoured people— came and said that they had a scheme which would employ 20,000 people who would be spread all over the country but that they would need a subsidy of £2 million a year, we would be delighted and we would go into the Lobbies and give it to them. Of course we might have questions to ask about the money and what was to be done with it, but if they kept these men going, we would be satisfied. However, if they started to take down parts of their factory or started to dismantle their plant and have strange ships ship it away we might become cagey.

The Minister also says:

We have no railway journey in this country which could be described as long by any international standards. Further handicaps are the absence of large homogeneous traffics such as coal or ore, which are particularly suited to railways, and of long distance transit traffic which is a feature of much continental railway operation.

I put it to the Minister that a great number of monsters could be put off the roads so as to make the roads safer for people. As regards much of the traffic that comes from the ports to the factories—and most of the ports I salesmen would only approach the people who have railway sidings in their factories—and most of the ports I know have railway sidings in them, too—the cargo could be put into the wagon and sent right on to the factory's siding. There must have been much neglect of this or else CIE have out-priced themselves in this regard.

As far as the monsters are concerned, it is no use talking about safety on the roads when CIE are putting bigger and longer monsters on the road every day. On my way up yesterday, when I came to the part of the road where one can see for maybe a mile and a half ahead, there was nearly threequarters of a mile of vehicles in front of me. We could not overtake because traffic was coming against us. We had to wait until we got as far as the autobahn at Kill to get through.

Then I discovered there was a CIE monster on the road with a trailer and an immense piece of plant with a girder hanging over the side and a red rag on it. That should not be sent on the road in any circumstances. It should be put on to the railway line.

The Minister has introduced a new phrase. He will go down in history as the man who introduced "small beer" as £75,000. On page 21, paragraph 41 he says:

No doubt there will be changes in future, the rail and road services will be tailored by need——

That is a lovely word to apply to a railway line, to tailor it.

It is not a new word.

Neither was "small beer". To compare it with £75,000 was a new one on everyone. The Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company is mentioned.

Rosslare is not mentined in that?

Yes. The Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company is mentioned in section 14 of the Bill. That is what I really wanted to explain to the House. I have often heard about the enormous overcrowding at Dún Laoghaire, with people standing up at night on the train and boat. Here are wonderful steamers at Rosslare giving a fine service. There is no need to look for sailing tickets. A person can get on the train at Paddington and travel to Rosslare through Fishguard. When he gets to Rosslare, he is not suffocated trying to get through the customs with a thousand and one people trampling on him as at Dún Laoghaire.

The Deputy is getting away from the Bill.

There is a reference to Rosslare in section 14.

Shipping does not enter into this Bill. It deals with CIE.

No, transport.

I would remind you that CIE are shareholders, and very large shareholders, in the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company.

The Deputy was discussing shipping.

This is a Transport Bill.

There is reference to the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company here. We are tied up with British Railways in this.

The Deputy may not tie that up with the discussion on this Bill. It does not arise.

The Harbours Act is mentioned in this Bill.

It is a Transport Bill.

Everything in transport is not relevant to this Bill. We are confined to what is in the Bill.

The Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company is mentioned in this Bill.

The Deputy should allow Deputy Lynch to proceed. If Deputy Corish wishes to speak, he may speak later. Deputy Lynch is now in possession.

I want a ruling for my guidance. I do not want a precedent established now which will prevent my mentioning the Fishguard and Rosslare Harbours Act.

The precedent was established earlier when the Deputy was absent. It was pointed out to Deputy McGilligan that that matter did not arise.

On a point of order, the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company is referred to in section 14 of the Bill.

That does not open up a discussion on shipping, which Deputy Lynch was endeavouring to do and which Deputy McGilligan endeavoured to do earlier in the evening.

I hope to speak later on this Bill. Am I permitted to speak on the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company?

That would be a matter for the Chair when the Deputy speaks.

When it is in the Bill, surely it is permissible to make reference to it?

This is the Transport Bill of 1964 and it mainly concerns difficulties with CIE. CIE are shareholders in the Fishguard and Rosslare Company.

To discuss shipping would not be relevant.

I do not intend to discuss shipping but I would ship the Clerk out of the House in about two minutes—the impertinence of him. I shall take a ruling from the Chair but not from the Clerk.

It is not in order to refer to the officials of the House.

Is it in order for the officials of the House to take over your duties in the Chair?

The Deputy is taking advantage of the officials of the House who are unable to reply.

He should not be doing what he is doing.

I ask you and you need not answer me: you would not have said what you said to me now unless the Clerk of the Dáil——

I should like to point out to Deputy Lynch that earlier in the evening when Deputy McGilligan raised this point, I ruled it out of order as irrelevant. The officials of the House do not come into this at all.

Is it necessary to pass notes to the Chair?

The officials of the House are entitled to pass any notes they wish to the Chair.

It appears to me the officials of the House are directing the Chair.

There is no directing of the Chair. As I have already pointed out, I dealt with this point earlier in the evening.

I saw this before.

What I pointed out to you, Sir, was that we are here to discuss the Transport Bill. We are going to vote £2 million to CIE. I am endeavouring to explain to you, Sir, that CIE are entitled to nominate a director of the Fishguard and Rosslare Railway and Harbour Company. With CIE having the power of doing that and with a good deal of the taxpayers' money being stuck in it, I am quite in order to mention to you——

The Deputy has mentioned it about three times.

I want to finish with what I want to say. I want to say it is important that the Minister would tell that director certain things to do that have not been done. That is what that director's duties are. That is the thing I was trying to tell you when the Clerk——

The Deputy will not refer to officials of the House. He is taking advantage of officials who are unable to reply.

I think the officials are taking advantage of me.

The Chair will look after order in the House.

I would be delighted at any time for the Chair to do it on his own. When I say I am going to finish, I finish and I do not go on for another half an hour here, and perhaps some people will be glad when I finish. The Minister is not in the House but I would ask his officials to inform him that I intend sitting here when he is replying to the debate and I will challenge him on every question I have asked him. I want to hear him reply to these questions: Is he making a profit from the bus services between Waterford and Tramore, or is he making a loss? How many passengers are being carried on it? It has taken three years to find that out and it is only on an occasion like this that we have an opportunity of asking the Minister for this information.

I am also asking him if he intends to stand on his own word or will he run out on it as regards the service between Waterford and Tramore? Will he make it as good a service as it was when the railway was there? Will he make any attempt to restore the public conveniences that were at the bus stop? Will he make it his business to see that it will not be the ratepayers who will have to pay for this but CIE, who wrecked it? Will he make it his business also to make up his mind that when Deputies from any part of the House ask him a Parliamentary Question as far as the running of CIE, or Bord na Móna, or Aer Lingus are concerned that he will answer these questions?

That does not arise on this Bill.

We would not have delayed the Minister half as long if he had been a little more courteous and less insolent to us. I look forward to the Committee Stage of this Bill and the House can be sure that I will have something to say on it regarding the Fishguard and Rosslare railway.

It is peculiar that members on the Government benches are not interested in this measure, or so it seems, as none of them has spoken on it. As far as I am concerned, CIE have withdrawn the greater part of their services from west Cork in the past few years but it is still incumbent on me to speak on this measure because it asks us to provide £2 million annually from public funds over the next five years. As well as that, we are wiping out another million pounds so it is going to cost the public funds £11 million in the next five years. It is also true to assert that we may be called upon for further additional sums as were sought under the 1958 Bill.

Although the railway services have been withdrawn from west Cork, we must still pay our portion of this £11 million to keep the service going in the remainder of the country. The most striking passage I have seen in the Minister's speech is where the Minister says:

The experience over the five years has demonstrated that the hopes of breaking even are unrealisable. The prospects have, however, been examined in a detailed scientific way in an exhaustive study made by CIE.

That is what the Minister for Transport and Power had to say on the 20th May, 1964, that the experience of the past five years has demonstrated that the hopes of breaking even are unrealisable. Who thought they were going to be realisable, other than the Minister? Everybody knew that they were not going to be realisable and that there was no justification for the assertions made during the debate on the closing of the west Cork line that CIE would break even in 1964. The statements which the Minister made to that effect were without justification and, in my opinion, he was aware that they were untruthful.

There are several quotations from the debates of 1958 and 1961 which indicate that the Minister believed in that doctrine in those years. I am not one of those given to bringing documentary evidence to this House. Seldom do I arm myself with volumes of Dáil Debates or give quotations from statements made here years and years ago but I believe there must be a departure from that as far as this particular measure is concerned. What have CIE achieved during the past six years, since the Transport Bill, 1958 was brought into this House, and since they got a free, unfettered hand to provide cheap, efficient transport in this country? Let us see what they have done and how they have justified the confidence of the majority of the members of this House who gave them that unfettered power. Let us look at what they have achieved.

First and foremost, they closed 621 miles of railway since they got this power in 1958. They closed 621 miles of railway and the Minister stands over that closure because he said it was a good thing for the country that such railway lines should be closed. As well as that, he told the House that it was for the betterment of the country that the railway lines which were closed should be closed, and that railways were no longer necessary in present day conditions.

Six hundred and twenty-one miles of railway represent a significant percentage of the total mileage of railway in this country. The total mileage of railway is given as 2,081; so that, of that figure which existed in 1958, the Minister and CIE have succeeded in closing, to the present time, 621 miles. Have CIE done anything else since they got this power in 1958? Have they done anything else of importance so far as the public are concerned? Indeed, they have. They took from us £22 million of our money— £22 million has been poured into the finances of CIE since the Transport Bill was passed in 1958. What has the Minister to say about this?

When the present Taoiseach was introducing the Transport Bill, or the Berehaven Bill, which might be a better name for it, in 1958, along with guaranteeing CIE a subsidy of £1 million to help them to break even by 1963, the subsidy was further increased by £125,000 to £1,125,000. He wrote off liabilities amounting to £16.6 million, so that since the Transport Act was introduced here in 1958 CIE have cost the taxpayers of this country £22 million. We are asked here tonight to provide another £11 million. Surely the time is at hand when we must take note of the day to day activities of CIE. We must accept that the Minister has floundered badly so far as CIE are concerned, so far as public pronouncements in regard to CIE are concerned and, particularly, in so far as the infallibility which the CIE Board are supposed to have is concerned. We were told they were men of great confidence and that if they got this unfettered power and were given five years everything would be all right so far as public transport was concerned.

They got their money in 1958 without being answerable to this House for it. It is my opinion, and I assert it as forcibly as I can, that they should not get the money in 1964 without answering to this House for it. I shall not vote for money for CIE and have the Minister for Transport and Power come in here and say when he is asked a question: "I shall not reply; this is entirely a matter for CIE and it is not relevant for me to answer such a question in the House or give the information." It has been a matter for the Irish people to find £22 million in the past five years for CIE and it will be a further matter for them to find £11 million in the next five years. I believe the least return that could be got for that money is that the Minister should explain how the £11 million will be expended. CIE are not a private company utilising their own funds and every penny of public money should be accounted for in this House. If we give the Minister the £11 million in the next five years I think we should have a section written into this Bill making it obligatory on the Minister to answer questions which Deputies put to him from time to time as the occasion demands.

This business of semi-State bodies, and particularly the CIE Board, getting money out of the taxpayers' pockets and not being answerable to the elected representatives of the people must cease. I cannot emphasise that strongly enough. I firmly believe that the people who pay the money should be given an explanation as to how it is expended.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer but reference to which I cannot find at the moment. The Minister asks for the co-operation of the CIE Board, the staff and the public. The public are asked to make a great united effort to help CIE— the public should all work together. We know from past experience how the CIE Board treated the public, not only how they treated the public at large but how they treated the elected representatives of the public and representatives of this House who sought information from them. We know, too, when the question arose of closing the lines, how CIE refused to receive deputations to discuss the closures. We know the public relations system of CIE which I think is the worst one could find.

Every business that is likely to succeed must have good public relations. If a private company were to have the same type of public relations as CIE have at the present time I have no doubt they would become bankrupt within a short period, but here is the difference between CIE and a private company. It does not matter if a private company have bad public relations. If they lose money they go out of business but that does not apply to CIE. If they lose money, all they have to do is go to the Minister for Transport and Power, say: "I want more money", and have a Bill introduced in the Dáil. That is the type of measure we have here tonight.

One cannot speak strongly enough about the public relations system of this State-sponsored body. There is no need for me to reiterate what happened about the closure of the railway lines in 1961; there is no need for me to emphasise again that the Board treated with the utmost contempt representations made to them to meet a deputation for a discussion on such matters. The Minister is smiling and I shall digress a little because the Minister is consistent in his inconsistency as far as the Board of CIE are concerned.

Was not the Minister, up to a short time ago, a firm believer in closing railway lines because, he said, the country was a relatively small one in which the longest line is only 160 miles? Was he not a firm believer in the philosophy that we could easily do without a railway system because it was such a costly amenity? Did he not, during the debate on the closure of the railway lines in 1961, emphasise this again and again? Having had the Minister emphasise the desirability of closing uneconomic railway lines, I am surprised to find in his statement today —it is a pity the Minister will not take time off to compare it with his statements in 1961—this passage:

The closing of secondary lines and branch lines which make any significant contribution to the main line system would further reduce the profitability of the profitable sector and, therefore, a substantial further reduction of the system could well increase the total loss.

Is it only now the Minister has found that out? How often was it told to him during the 1961 debate? Now it has dawned on him that when you close branch lines it affects the profitability of the main ones.

In his speech today. the Minister goes on to emphasise quite clearly that he does not propose to close down any further lines. We must assume that the Minister is satisfied it was not good policy to close some of the lines already closed. According to his statement, the west Cork line was closed because it was supposed to lose £59,000 annually, a figure never substantiated. How small is that, by comparison with the £2 million annually we now propose to contribute to keep the railways alive in other parts of the country.

Small beer.

Does anybody think we are being treated fairly? When the west Cork and the Tramore railways were closed down we were told there would be no further closures —that once they were wiped off the railway map CIE would be a paying proposition. What a difference that was from statements we have now had. In 1961 we were told that no further lines would be closed, but within a year other railways were closed. I feel sure it is quite possible that despite the Minister's statement today other lines may be closed as soon as the Minister's mind changes again.

It is so stated. It is quite definite.

We have had even stronger statements on public transport from the Taoiseach. In fact, I believe I have been wasting time on what the Minister has said: it was to quote some of the things the Taoiseach had to say on this subject that I brought this book in with me. If the Taoiseach and the Minister were consistent, the Transport Bill we should have here tonight would be to abolish the railway system of this country completely. That is the only logical interpretation of the many statements the Minister has made. In his public utterances he has anticipated that within the next five years the railways will lose up to £6 million. Now, let us see what the Taoiseach has to say about the railways. I am afraid, Sir, you will have to bear with me for some time because the Taoiseach made several empty statements about the railways which I should like to quote.

Might I point out——

Several times, the Taoiseach——

Will the Deputy please listen to me? Might I point out to the Deputy that lengthy quotations are not in order and that the Chair will not bear with them?

What about a lot of short ones?

This is just analogous with the Minister's efforts to stifle discussion.

You will pardon me, Sir, if I point out it is not often I bring in quotations with me. This is only the first or second time I have done so. I have heard several Deputies quoting at length from past volumes of the Official Report and I thought the same rules and regulations would apply to me.

It is hardly in Standing Orders—this thing about long quotations.

The Taoiseach was first speaking about west Cork. In volume 186, column 599 of the Official Report for 16th February, 1961, the Taoiseach is reported as saying:

Let me deal with this, as I regard it, important question as to whether the closing of the west Cork branch line is prejudicial to the economic development of the area; whether it is true, as Deputy Murphy suggested, that the railway is essential to the economic prospects of the area; or whether its economic development depends in the slightest degree on the preservation of the railway. Since the CIE Board announced their intention to close the west Cork railway there have been three announcements of intention to establish important new industries in the west Cork area and, at the moment, there are proposals for four additional important industries in that area.

He goes on to elaborate on that story, as if it needed elaboration:

To my knowledge, it is true that in the past efforts to induce industrialists into that area were hampered because of an impression which industrialists had that, if they established industries in the area, they would be pressurised by the Government to use a form of transport there unsuitable to their business. The industrial development that is now taking place in west Cork is unprecedented in the history of that area.

Then the Taoiseach asked:

Is that not true?

Therefore, is it not true that the Taoiseach believed in February, 1961, that it was a good thing for west Cork to have the railways closed down? Surely, on 20th May, 1964, if he were consistent, the Taoiseach would believe it would be a good thing for the country if every railway in it were closed down. The railways are not paying, the Minister says, and he asks the people who were serviced by the nonpaying west Cork railway, now closed down, to help subsidise the other nonpaying railways for a few more years.

However, we must dwell a little longer on the statement of the Taoiseach. He envisages in that statement, in no uncertain manner, a situation where, if you want industrial development in an area, you must immediately shut down the railways there. Is not that clear from his statement? He told us about the industries that commenced to flow into west Cork as soon as the industrialists concerned were satisfied the railway line was to close down. He went on to say:

It has been suggested that the economic development of the area depends on the existence of the railway.

The Taoiseach continued:

I have clearly shown that manufacturing industries have only begun to flow into that area since it was announced that the railway line would be closed. The announcement of the closing of the railway was followed by a number of new proposals for industry in that area.

In February, 1961, the Taoiseach was quite satisfied that the closing of the West Cork railway helped industry to flow in there. He was not in such a good mood on the same day. He did not like people to annoy him about the value of railways or about the subsidisation of railways. The main theme of the earlier part of his speech was that it was a bad thing to subsidise railways.

As reported at column 595 of the Official Report of 16th February, 1961, he said:

I think I am entitled to assume from the terms of the trivial amendment moved by the Fine Gael Party, and the speech delivered in support of it by Deputy McGilligan, that, in fact, the Fine Gael Party, the principal Opposition Party in the House, have no serious complaint to make about transport policy as it is now being administered and have, indeed, no objection to the closing of branch lines so long as local politicians are given adequate opportunity of blowing off steam on deputations to the CIE Board.

But the Taoiseach blew off a lot of steam in February, 1961. As time goes on, we shall examine in retrospect what has happened.

The steam is of a very different colour. The Deputy really is misinterpreting the Taoiseach and I think the House realises it.

I have quoted him correctly. I have given the volume number.

There is only one colour for steam, that is, white— unless the Minister is looking at the world through rose-tinted glasses.

The Taoiseach said, as reported at Column 602:

Looking on the whole picture, I think I can say without fear of contradiction by anybody who wants to base his statements on fact—

The implication was that others were not basing their statement on fact—

—that the economic prospects of West Cork are brighter now than ever they were in its history. They are certainly far brighter now than they were before the decision to close the railway line was taken.

He made several other lengthy references to West Cork and to what would accrue to the area once these railways were finished and dealt with. What has happened since? Would Deputy Childers, as Minister for Transport and Power, like to know how the Taoiseach's prophecies are being realised, viewed today, 3½ years after they were made?

The Deputy may not discuss the industrial development of west Cork. We are discussing transport.

The Taoiseach told the House—and he held the same position then as now—in February, 1961——

The Deputy has gone over all that.

Give the man a chance. I want to protest. I think Deputy Murphy should be given a chance to express his views on transport and that he should not be stifled.

The Leader of the Labour Party should conduct himself.

He will, so long as the members of the Labour Party get a proper chance to talk on this Bill.

Deputy Murphy has been given every chance by the Chair to speak.

He is very relevant.

The Leader of the Labour Party has not been in the House. He does not know.

On a point of order, he has been in the House for the past two and a half hours. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle was not there, of course, because he was having his break.

That is not untrue. The Leas-Cheann Comhairle is aware that the Leader of the Labour Party was here when he left and he has been here since.

The Leader of the Labour Party has left since Deputy Murphy was called upon to speak.

For ten minutes.

And, during that time, Deputy Murphy was allowed to make a speech, like every other Deputy.

This debate would be over in a respectable time if the Labour Party were allowed to talk on it.

The Deputy was allowed to talk on it. It was only when he was not talking on the Bill that the Chair intervened.

We will have it tomorrow at him, too, you know.

Will the Chair not agree that they are worthy of mention in this debate? I am not finished. Will the Chair not agree that the effect of the closing-down of the railways in west Cork on industrial development is important? The Taoiseach, as head of the Government, had something to say in 1961. I have quoted not all but only a few of his references.

It was only when the Deputy was embarking on a debate on industrial development that the Chair intervened.

Because it is not nice to hear.

Surely it is relevant to the Transport Act here in this Volume? There is no mention that the Taoiseach was told by the Chair that he was irrelevant. However, beidh lá eile ag an bPaorach.

Debate adjourned.
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