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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Jun 1964

Vol. 210 No. 3

Committee on Finance. - Vote 28—Local Government.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £4,257,800 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1965, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Local Government, including Grants to Local Authorities, Grants and other Expenses in connection with Housing, and Miscellaneous Grants including a Grant-in-Aid.

The total Vote for my Department for the year 1964-65 is £7,052,800. The net increase is £416,190 on the corresponding provision made in the last financial year. There is an increase of £289,000 in respect of private housing grants and of £270,000 in respect of water supply and sewerage contributions and grants.

The contribution by way of subsidy of local authority housing loans is increased by £80,000 and there is an increase of £5,000 in grants for the clearance of derelict sites and for works of public amenity, which will now cover grants for protective works at dangerous quarries. There is an increase of £62,420 for salaries, wages and allowances and, under a new procedure, a sum of £10,000 for postal services, included in subhead C, is being charged to the Department.

A sum of £70,000 appears in the Estimate for the first time, as a consequence of the transfer to county councils and county borough corporations, under the Electoral Act, 1963, of the duty of compiling and publishing the register of electors, which was formerly the responsibility of the county registrars. The Act provides that approximately half the cost of the work will henceforth be borne by the State, on my Department's Vote.

Although the total number of houses completed by local authorities during the year ended 31st March, 1964, at 1,899, is only slightly higher than the previous year, which was however a substantial increase on the year before, the volume of work in progress and in tender at 31st March showed a considerable increase, there being 5,404 dwellings in progress or in tender at that date compared with 3,333 in the previous year. In addition, the value of tenders and direct labour estimates sanctioned during the year at £6.2 million showed an 80 per cent increase over the previous year and should result in a substantial increase in completions this year. This, while still well below the minimum output calculated to be necessary, is a trend in the right direction. The distribution of the schemes covered by the amount, by area, was: Dublin Corporation, £2.4 million; Cork Corporation, £.3 million; other urban areas, £1.9 million; and county health districts, £1.6 million.

Satisfactory progress is being made in raising the standards of new rural houses by providing them with water and sewerage facilities. Most rural housing authorities have now produced new plans which provide serviced rural cottages where this is possible. Potentially serviced cottages are being provided by some local authorities in cases where the cottages, though not now serviceable, are on the line of future public services so that the local authority or the tenant purchasers can in due course instal the services with a minimum of further work and expense. I would exhort all local authorities to further this policy and to take care, in the selection and acquisition of sites, to ensure that fully serviced cottages can be provided.

Increasing costs continued to affect house building prices in the last 12 months. These have resulted from many factors principally increases in wages and cost of materials and the introduction of a five day week in the building industry. At the same time, the high level of activity in the building industry in almost all areas has made it difficult for many housing authorities to obtain competitive tenders particularly for isolated rural cottages. Some contractors who have been appointed are slow in commencing and carrying out work. This is due to many factors including the availability of ample work in the private sectors of the building industry. It may be that it is felt by some contractors, with or without justification, that the procedure for payment for work done is too slow to be attractive and local authorities might with advantage to themselves examine their procedures in this regard.

Some authorities have succeeded in overcoming such problems by building cottages under the labour and trades contracts systems at reasonable cost. A few local authorities are successfully operating direct labour organisations, while others have introduced incentive bonus systems. The experimental proposals of one housing authority aimed at giving continuity of employment to a number of contractors over a reasonable period which it was claimed would make local authority contracts more attractive to the contractors in that area have been approved.

Any other proposals that may be put forward to overcome these problems in their areas will be fully considered.

Although full reports from the Survey of Unfit Houses are not available from every area, an analysis of the figures submitted, including estimates where final figures are not available, indicates that outside the cities of Dublin and Cork there are 70,000 unfit houses in the country, 60,000 of which are in rural areas. Of the total, 40,000 are regarded as capable of economic repair leaving a balance of 30,000 which are totally unfit and cannot be repaired economically. About 25,000 of these totally unfit houses are situate in rural areas.

Furthermore, while the results of the 1961 national census so far as housing was concerned showed a satisfactory improvement over the 1946 figures in so far as densities per room are concerned, it also revealed that out of a total of 676,000 private dwellings in the country over 300,000 were more than 60 years old and 160,000 were more than 100 years old and that, while 130,000 houses were newly built between 1946 and 1961, the increase in the housing stock amounted to 14,000 only. Allowing for conversion of dwellings to other purposes such as offices and so on, this would appear to confirm an obsolescence rate of 1—1¼ per cent, that is 6,500 to 8,000 dwellings each year. These figures give some idea of the re-housing programme which the country must face, apart altogether from the fact that for the first time in generations our population is on the increase with the implications that this involves for housing authorities.

The extent of the problem and the difficulties in the way of solving it, have made it clear to me that housing output must be expanded and that, to do this, fundamentally new ideas must be considered in regard to all the processes of erecting a house. I considered that the matters which needed to be urgently examined were, chiefly, the type of house being provided, the type and size of the components being used and the manner of their assembly, the need for ensuring a smooth and uninterrupted sequence in the various constructional operations; in general, all processes susceptible to speed without any sacrifice of essential quality or amenity and without detriment to the essential interests of the worker.

Housing construction forms a very large part of the operations of the building industry as a whole, in fact so large a part that its problems are largely those of the industry itself and that it is within the industry itself the changes which will give us speedier construction must take place. Notwithstanding this, I felt that my own intervention in this field was essential unless the possibility of greater social progress was to be lost. I accordingly decided that the ground should be prepared to enable me to consider whether specific techniques or systems not hitherto used in this country for housing would be necessary to supplement the output being achieved by present methods.

I, therefore, invited building interests to submit their proposals for the provision of dwellings by non-traditional techniques or systems which from their own knowledge and experience they considered suitable for our needs. About 80 replies have been received. While I have seen personally the success of new methods and systems in other countries, the procedure I have followed will bring to light whether, in fact, the particular schemes now submitted are suitable for adoption in the circumstances of this country. I will refer to this matter again further on in my speech when I come to deal with some aspects of the rural problem.

From time to time standards have been laid down by my Department for local authority dwellings and dwellings qualifying for the private house grants. I have set up a working party consisting of administrative and technical members of the Department to look into these standards to ascertain their suitability to present day requirements and to make any recommendations they consider necessary for their revision before issuing a comprehensive statement of the Department's standards and recommendations in so far as house building and layouts are concerned.

During the year ended 31st March last, Dublin Corporation completed 829 dwellings which was an increase on the 643 completed the previous year. At the 31st March, they had 1,739 houses in progress or in tender which was also substantially up on the corresponding figure for the previous year when the figure was 1,272. However, in view of the waiting list which contains over 7,000 names, with 1,350 applicants from newly weds alone in 1963, and in view of the age and obsolescence of many thousands of the houses privately owned in the city, I came to the conclusion that a special effort was required to increase the output still further.

The situation was then aggravated by the necessity to reserve for a period all new tenancies for persons displaced from dangerous buildings. The extent of this operation alone will be more easily understood by an examination of the statistics which shows that from the commencement of the operation up to the beginning of April the closure of dangerous buildings had resulted in the displacement and rehousing of 879 families of three or more persons, 137 couples and 155 single persons and that at that time a further 224 families of three or more, 137 couples and 168 single persons were involved in operations proceeding. The Dublin Corporation have relaxed their regulation suspending the normal rehousing priorities and reserving all new tenancies for persons displaced from dangerous buildings to the extent that they are now making 10 per cent of lettings available to other than families displaced from dangerous buildings.

One feature of the dangerous buildings displacement operation was the number of families of one and two persons affected. In order to meet the needs of this class in the interim period until the output of suitable permanent accommodation could be expanded to meet the increased demand, I approved the Corporation's decision to provide a number of chalets on convenient cleared sites which will not be required for permanent building purposes in the near future.

Up to the time of the collapse of the tenement buildings in June last, the Corporation had been planning on the basis of a programme not scheduled for completion before 1969-70, of 10,000 dwellings for which all the available sites within the city boundary had been earmarked. In view of the figures which I have already quoted, I was not satisfied that the programme and the rate of progress planned was adequate, particularly when I was informed that for reasons outside the control of the Corporation it was likely that the output of dwellings in the current year might be less than the number completed last year.

At the same time, it appeared to me that with the best will in the world, the Corporation would find it impossible to overcome the physical task of meeting its growing accumulation of housing requirements in a reasonable time unless it was prepared to adopt more progressive administrative and technical measures for the purpose. In view of the seriousness and urgency of the situation I asked the Corporation to meet me to discuss their programme and the possibilities of expanding output. I also arranged follow-up meetings between officials of the Department and the Corporation.

One of the serious problems facing the Corporation and inhibiting any worthwhile expansion of output was a shortage of building land and I am glad to say that I was able to assist them in acquiring a substantial housing site to overcome this problem. With the assistance of my Department problems in regard to a water supply for the area were also dealt with. As a result of these meetings at which the argument that their own staff resources and the shortage of skilled operatives would also limit any increase in output was raised, the Corporation accepted my advice to investigate the possibilities of new building methods and techniques, with a view to using them to produce dwellings over and above the number which they could produce in the normal programme by traditional methods, and the use of an agency other than the Corporation if this would expedite the project.

Having at my suggestion sent a delegation to examine the results of industrialised building methods in continental cities and having heard their report, the Housing Committee recommended the City Council to adopt new building methods and techniques to supplement urgently the housing output which is so badly needed. I am very pleased to record that the City Council have accepted the recommendation. A number of factors will need to be cleared before the decision can be fully implemented but I am fully confident that the realisation by the community as a whole of the value of good housing, the inadequacy of the supply of houses in the city area and the plight of those families who are obliged to occupy unfit, dangerous or overcrowded dwellings and of those who are obliged to pay inequitable rents for inadequate accommodation will ensure agreement with the Corporation in their proposals and that the fullest co-operation will be forthcoming from building and financial interests, from professional and workers' interests and from the general body of Dublin citizens to produce a satisfactory and worthwhile impact on the city's housing needs.

Over the past year a number of steps were taken to expedite consideration of appeals under section 18 of the Labourers Act, 1936, against the state of repair of cottages vested in the local authority tenants and to reduce the backlog of undetermined appeals. These have been successful, even though the full effect of the steps may not yet have been felt. During the year 820 appeals were received and 853 were determined. Extra works were prescribed in 692 cases and the balance of 161 were determined to be in good repair and sanitary condition.

Maintenance costs have shown, in common with all other costs the same continuous upward trend for a number of years. It follows, therefore, that increased financial provision must be made for maintenance if housing estates are to be properly preserved. It is regrettable that some urban housing authorities seem to have yielded to the temptation to skimp on maintenance work because of increased costs, without taking into consideration the inevitable consequences of their shortsighted policy. Houses are important and expensive assets in the preservation of which the State has a considerable interest. It cannot be overlooked, therefore, where proper maintenance programmes are not being carried out regularly, that the lifetime of these valuable assets can be considerably shortened. I would suggest to urban housing authorities that they should plan a steady spaced repair programme to be carried out over a period of years; they will thus avoid having to face periodic heavy outlay on repairs and will be able to make reasonable annual provision for the financing of the work.

The statutory provisions relating to the powers of housing authorities to make loans for the construction or purchase of houses which were previously contained in the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts, 1899 to 1962, have now been amended and consolidated and given a modern setting in regulations made by me with the consent of the Minister for Finance in accordance with the powers conferred on me by section 11 of the Housing (Loans and Grants) Act, 1962. The regulations came into effect on 1st June. This will be a distinct step in the process of the modernisation of the whole housing code which was begun with the Act of 1962 and which will be continued in the new Bill, the preparation of which is well advanced.

A welcome trend has developed in the past few years towards increased borrowing from commercial sources by individuals for new house purchase. This tends to show that a bigger percentage of borrowers are regarded as good commercial risks for a loan which in turn is evidence of the growing prosperity of the community. This trend is to be encouraged since it ensures that the maximum proportion of local authority advances will be conserved for those most in need of them and for tenants of local authority houses who are prepared to provide their own housing accommodation.

I am glad to be able to announce that the regulations provide for an increase from £2,000 to £2,250 in the amount of maximum loan that may be advanced by a housing authority towards construction or purchase of a house. This amendment should remove any hardship that applicants may have been experiencing in putting together sufficient money to bridge the gap between the current net cost of houses, after allowing for State and local grants, and the maximum amount of loan previously available.

One of the amendments in the regulations deserves special mention. This is the provision that a family vacating a housing authority dwelling and buying a house provided by private enterprise may secure a loan up to 99 per cent of the market value of the house exclusive of grants. This percentage compares with the 95 per cent available to other persons and the provision was included in the new regulations to encourage housing authority tenants, whose financial circumstances had improved, to move to the private sector. I understand that there is already a small but significant movement out of housing estates where families' fortunes have prospered.

I feel that this movement should be fostered not only because it results in a local authority house becoming immediately available for a needy family but primarily because the ambition and initiative displayed by the families concerned in seeking houses of their own choice when they can afford to do so deserve every encouragement. I feel that many housing authorities have failed to appreciate the number of families that would be prepared to undertake the task of housing themselves if the initial difficulties could be smoothed out for them. I have in mind especially the provision of developed sites. I consider that the work of providing developed sites is of an importance at least equal to that of direct building by the housing authority themselves. Well planned schemes of developed sites combined with the provision of supplementary grants on a worthwhile scale would result in a noticeable increase in self-help in regard to housing by persons who otherwise must wait for the housing authority to provide direct building for their needs.

I would, therefore, again appeal to all housing authorities to re-examine carefully whether they are at present catering for the full needs of these cases in the matter of developed sites and supplementary grants and whether they are bringing the availability of these facilities to the notice of persons who might be interested. Where there is a need established for an expansion of the present programmes every effort should be made to bring about the desired expansion as soon as possible.

One of the most acute problems revealed by the Survey of Unfit Houses was the deplorable housing conditions in which many small farmers are living. It was evident from a preliminary analysis of the survey material that a number of the families concerned could not be expected, because of their economic or family circumstances, to undertake the provision of a house even with the aid of increased grants and loans. It was because of this position that I introduced a new scheme of subsidy to encourage county councils to take a greater interest in building for small farmers as a distinct category. The new scheme will apply to houses erected by county councils after 1st October, 1963, for small farmers the valuation of whose land holding is £5 or less.

I wish to emphasise that the scheme applies to all county councils, even to those which have so far excluded farmers from eligibility for council cottages. I feel sure that the increased subsidy will be a sufficient incentive to the county councils to formulate realistic programmes with a view to ensuring that the needs in this category are met in the shortest possible time. Under the scheme, the State has undertaken responsibility for the entire loan charges that will be incurred in the repayment of the loans raised to finance the erection of the dwellings subject to a weekly contribution of 7/6d in normal cases from the small farmer and an annual contribution equivalent to the loan charges on £100 of the capital cost from the housing authority.

It is the intention that the procedure to be adopted in building the houses will be of the simplest. The housing authority will, in effect, act as a contractor for the small farmer. They will enter into an agreement with him to erect the house and the agreement will provide that the expenditure incurred by them will be charged against his holding for the period for which the local authority had to borrow.

I have already referred to the response to my invitation to builders and others interested to bring to my notice any systems or techniques of the non-traditional type of house building. I am glad to say that some of the replies have come from existing Irish concerns and are based on the utilisation of Irish produced materials to at least the same extent as in existing traditional building. This initiative and enterprise gives me hope that whatever partial transition to new methods may eventually be necessary any difficulties in the process will be small and easily surmounted.

I mention industrialised building in the context of rural housing as I have already mentioned it in the case of Dublin because these are the sectors of the problem that demand the most urgent and exceptional treatment. The application of the new methods to both sectors would involve the organisation of demand on a national basis. If we consider the difficulties experienced in getting contractors for single cottages in isolated areas there is already a case for examining the question of the regional pooling of contracts, and I think that the introduction of new building methods will make this course essential. A body like the National Building Agency can be visualised as an effective organising agent for the various local authorities involved.

The total number of schemes approved under section 10 of the Housing (Loans and Grants) Act, 1962, as at 31st March, 1964, under which advances may be made in respect of the reconstruction, repair and improvement of houses was 32, comprising 19 rural and 13 urban housing authorities. The majority of rural housing authorities and a number of urban authorities are giving supplementary grants in respect of new and reconstructed houses as well as for water and sewerage installations.

Eight cottage purchase schemes comprising 2,062 cottages were brought into force during the year and six schemes comprising 2,485 cottages were approved. Urban purchase schemes were approved in respect of 1,207 houses. The total number of urban houses included in sales schemes at 31/3/1964 was 19,336.

The amounts provided for housing and water and sewerage grants for private persons in 1964-65 is £3,200,000, made up of £3,040,000 in subhead E.2 and £160,000 in subhead F. In the Estimates for 1963-64 a sum of £2.751 million was provided for housing grants and separate supplementary provision was made at £50,000 for private water and sewerage grants where works were commenced after 1st April, 1963. The increased provision under these headings is, therefore, £399,000 and in addition a sum of £50,000 is included in subhead F to recoup to local authorities supplementary grants to farmers who would have qualified for the grants previously administered by the Department of Agriculture.

During the year I was glad to be able to announce a substantial increase in the grants for farmers and other persons in occupation of land providing their own houses.

The steady growth in new house grant allocations and the provision of additional funds to meet the increased grants for farmers, are the two main factors underlying the increase in the overall provision. New house grant allocations for 1963-64 at 7,384 exceeded the previous highest total of 6,095 recorded in 1955-56. While the number of reconstruction grant allocations fell to 11,856 as compared with 13,668 in the previous year, the volume of reconstruction activity appears to remain as high as formerly. Allocations of grants for water and sewerage, which exceeded 4,000 cases for the first time ever in 1962-63, totalled 5,555 cases in 1963-64.

In dealing with my estimate for last year I mentioned the problem of unfit houses and the special grants for essential repairs under section 5 of the Housing (Loans and Grants) Act, 1962. This section was enacted to deal with the problem of owner-occupied houses which are incapable of being made fully fit for habitation at reasonable cost. I am glad to say that sixteen local authorities have indicated that they are prepared to operate this scheme. A formal procedure for dealing with the grants has been sent to local authorities and considerable activity is expected in the current financial year.

The generous grants available to approved bodies for the housing of elderly persons have resulted so far in applications for the provision of approximately 300 units of accommodation as at 31st March, 1964. Grants have been paid up to that date in respect of 56 living units. The response so far is satisfactory and it is expected that these grants will continue to be availed of in future years.

Considerable progress has been made on group water supply schemes and up to 31st March, 1964, work was either completed or well advanced on about 120 schemes covering 2,000 houses. In addition 84 other schemes covering 1,194 houses approximately had reached the design stage.

A total of £845,000 is provided in subhead F in respect of contributions to loan charges for sanitary services works and for grants for private water and sewerage installations. The amount included for contributions to loan charges is £635,000. The local authority programmes of water supply and sewerage schemes, at 31st March, 1964, involved 241 schemes in progress, comprising 156 water supply and 85 sewerage schemes, at a total estimated value of £7.32 million, as compared with work costing £5 million being carried out at March, 1963. Schemes at tender stage aggregate £8 million while another £10 million worth are at contract document stage. During the year ended 31st March, 1964, a total of over 2½ million was issued from the Local Loans Fund as compared with £1.7 million in 1962-63. Tenders to a value of over £3 million were sanctioned in 1963-64 as compared with approximately £2¾ million last year.

In the course of the year approval was given to the application to Counties Cavan, Longford and Monaghan of the higher rate of 60 per cent of subsidy towards the loan charges of water supply and sewerage schemes, subject to Counties Cavan and Monaghan adopting satisfactory programmes. Longford has already adopted such a programme.

As from 1st July last, a new unified scheme of grants was introduced for the installation of piped water and sewerage facilities in private homes. It applies to all approved works which cost more than £10 irrespective of the occupation or place of residence of the applicant. A substantial increase is provided in grants for group installations. Restrictions in regard to distance from public schemes are removed. Grant allocations have increased by about 25 per cent. On two occasions during the year I wrote personally to county councillors requesting their co-operation in the water supplies drive and asking that their particular talents for encouraging local co-operation and initiative be fully used. An attractive coloured pamphlet illustrating the new scheme and the different ways of installing piped water has been issued. The general programme of publicity has been continued and the participation of the Department in a number of local shows has been found particularly rewarding.

During the year under review I appointed a new committee of engineers entitled "The Advisory Committee for Sanitary Services Works", comprising senior engineering personnel of the Department, four consulting and three County engineers, to advise me on matters in regard to the planning, design, execution, operation and maintenance of sanitary services works which I may refer to them from time to time. Many complex engineering and related problems have been thrown up by the present large-scale local authority programme and the committee has been impressed with the need to ensure that solutions to these problems are fully attuned to present day needs, including the objectives of the Government's Second Programme for Economic Expansion, and of the new Planning Act. I have received the report of the Inter-Departmental Committee on water resources which I set up in 1960, and consideration of their recommendations has commenced.

The number of recent fires involving danger to or loss of life has occasioned me considerable concern. A preliminary review of the fire service has been carried out. As at present organised it is reasonably efficient and within the resources made available by rating authorities, progress is made year by year in re-equipment, the provision of new fire stations and in general modernisation. Further progress might be achieved by grouping counties and county boroughs into fire regions and this is being examined in detail at present. Legislative proposals are being prepared to amend the Fire Brigades Act, 1940, so as to strengthen the control of fire brigade authorities.

Generally, however, the 1940 Act gives fire brigade authorities wide powers in regard to the control of use of potentially dangerous buildings. They may require the owner of any such building to refrain from use of the whole or part of the building until he takes certain specified precautions such as the provision of appliances or fittings, structural alterations or additions, or "the doing in relation to such buildings of any other thing whatsoever". The Fire Standards Committee have just completed consideration of revised standards and I have received their report and the suggested standards which they recommend for acceptance. Stencilled copies of the standards recommended by the Committee will be made available to interested persons and bodies. Copies have been sent to the local fire authorities. I am taking the opportunity to ask these authorities to carry out fresh surveys of all buildings whose condition and use could be regarded as constituting a special fire hazard.

To increase public awareness of major fire hazards and the fire prevention precautions, a series of slides has been shown from time to time on Telefís Éireann, including a special series illustrating Christmas fire hazards.

Loss of life by drowning continues to be a cause of concern. Steps were taken during the year to publicise the main hazards, but I am not satisfied that the public is yet sufficiently conscious of what can be done to save lives. The drive for the provision of adequate swimming facilities throughout the country has been developing more slowly than I would like. There is local enthusiasm for swimming pool projects, but active steps have been taken towards their provision in 12 centres only. Some of these are well advanced. Last July I asked local authorities again to give the matter serious consideration, particularly the urgent need to have adequate facilities for teaching children to swim. I urged them to co-operate with voluntary associations, including school authorities, wishing to instal pools. Sanitary authorities were also urged to keep water safety measures constantly under review. Recently, I recommended to sanitary authorities that the possibilities of arrangement with specialist firms for the provision of completelyequipped swimming pools on a "package-deal" basis should be explored, as this method seems to offer considerable economies.

The loss of life through drowning in quarries has also given rise to much anxiety. Local authorities were asked during the year to take immediate protective action in relation to quarries which are known to be dangerous. A new system of State grants has been initiated on the basis of 50 per cent of the cost of the approved works. The maximum of 50 per cent will be subject to review in appropriate cases when special difficulties arise. Legislative proposals are being formulated to give Dublin County Council and other authorities adequate powers to deal with quarries in private ownership.

Measurements of air pollution in Dublin and other centres are continuing. A firm indication of the trend of pollution will be available towards the end of next year. In the meantime, interim regulations for the control of atmospheric pollution pursuant to the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1962, are being prepared, to deal, in the first instance, with the emission of dark smoke from premises other than private dwellinghouses.

The Report of the Commission on Itinerancy is under examination in my Department in conjunction with the other Departments concerned. Complex social considerations are involved in the recommendations of the Commission which cover a wide field. It will be some time yet before it is possible to formulate a firm policy on the basis of the Commission's recommendations.

Turning to the roads system, the numbers of motor vehicles continue to mount, the increase at the last count being 7.6 per cent in the total for all vehicles in 12 months, private cars accounting for an increase over the 12 month period of 10.6 per cent. It is gratifying to see this positive proof of our rising standard of living, but we have to look also at the consequences for our road works programme.

The comprehensive national traffic census being organised by my Department will take some further time to complete. When the results have been processed I hope to be in a position to introduce a comprehensive re-classification of the roads system based on up-to-date considerations, and a system of priorities in our road works programme.

The rapid and continuing growth of vehicular traffic tends to concentrate principally on the main roads, and most of all on arterial routes, which are the main connecting links between the various areas of the country and the national capital. The improvement of many of these roads to a significant degree is an urgent need.

The main features of this year's scheme of Road Fund grants in the counties are manifest from the total allocation under the three principal heads, namely, £2,253,000 for county road improvement, £2,050,000 for main road improvement, and £1,450,000 for arterial roads.

Special attention is being given to the improvement of the sections of the arterial routes in the vicinity of the capital, which are carrying very heavy traffic volumes, and are very much congested. In the case of the Naas Road, a major scheme of improvement to dual carriageway standard is well advanced, and further sections additional to those already in use are expected to be completed this year. In the case of the other routes, principally the Dublin-Belfast Road and the Bray Road, the planning and other preliminaries in connection with major improvements are in progress. Grants have also been given for the improvement of arterial routes in other counties, including routes leading to the Border.

Increased motorised traffic brings with it increasing problems, and I envisage expanding activity by my Department to deal with them, so as to make our roads safer and more efficient.

The accident statistics for 1963 showed a welcome reduction on those for 1962, but this happy trend has not, so far, continued in 1964. It is not possible to determine positively the reasons for these shifts in accident rates. Weather conditions, the volume of traffic, the regulations on speed limits and lighting introduced last year, undoubtedly all played their part, but to what extent in the case of each factor, it is not possible to say. Nor is it possible to rule out other factors. My Department are instituting further research on this whole problem of accident causation, but I should warn in advance that even countries with substantial research apparatus and a larger statistical field have not so far got an answer. In the meantime, we have been, and are, proceeding with those measures which we hope will reduce the accident rate.

On 1st April, 1963, the speed limits were introduced. They were criticised by a minority, but have been welcomed by the great majority of the public. Their first review is now nearing completion. This will be an interim review to remove the more obvious anomalies. I wish to thank the local authorities and the local technical committees for their help in this review. It has not, of course, been possible to iron out differences in approach in different areas. I am, therefore, considering a comprehensive review of the built-up area zones to be undertaken, at least in respect of the arterial routes, by a single team, which should produce a fairly uniform result throughout the country.

The regulations dealing with the lighting of vehicles and their general construction and use were brought into force on 27th October last. They are designed to ensure safety on the roads and to control maximum laden weights to protect the roads from damage. They are in general conformity with the latest European standards. More detailed standards for lamps, reflectors and certain items of equipment such as safety belts and safety helmets were not dealt with pending the outcome of international discussions. I hope to be able to deal with these matters during the present year.

Part III of the Road Traffic Act, 1961, and its subsidiary regulations came into operation on 18th March, and established a new regime for the licensing of drivers of motor vehicles. Features of the new arrangements are driving tests, provisional licences for "learner" drivers, the issue of licences restricted to classes of vehicles and compulsory endorsement of licences for a wide range of offences.

Generally speaking, the impact of the new regulations will be relatively slight on persons who hold, or held within the past five years, licences under the 1933 Act, but a person who did not previously so hold a licence must first obtain a certificate of competency before applying for a driving licence and for that purpose must undergo a test, consisting of questions on the Rules of the Road and a practical driving test, during which the applicant is required to show that he applies the Rules of the Road in his driving, that he is capable of manipulating the vehicle safely and that he can execute correctly a variety of manoeuvres which form part of everyday driving.

A number of driver testers have been recruited and trained, and are at present carrying out tests in Dublin and throughout the country. The number of applications for tests will increase, of course, and further testers will be appointed. Test centres have been established in Dublin and in more than 40 towns throughout the country.

It will now be possible to give attention to the detailed planning essential to the introduction of a scheme of vehicle testing. Some preliminary investigation has already been carried out. A suitable scheme will be formulated at the earliest date possible.

That will see the Road Traffic Act, 1961, and its attendant schemes, fully in operation. But, as much of the 1961 Act involves the making of regulations, work on these will continue. A recent example is the amending Road Traffic (Signs) Regulations, which authorise the use of double white lines at dangerous bends and other dangerous places on the more heavily trafficked routes. I have asked the road authorities to arrange for the marking of the centres of all the arterial roads with centre lines, broken or continuous as circumstances dictate. The Road Fund will meet the cost. Reflectorised material and reflecting studs will be widely used. I hope that the money being spent on this road safety feature will be matched by a reduction in accidents on the open road.

The full cost?

Yes. In other ways the 1961 Act is being implemented. So far 17 schemes for off-street car parks have been approved, and a number of local byelaws or rules on traffic and parking have been confirmed. These include the scheme for one-way streets in Dublin introduced recently, which has been generally acclaimed. Such schemes must be tried in practice before their effectiveness can be gauged. For the Dublin city area, representatives of the Corporation, the Garda and my Department meet regularly to consider in advance schemes for traffic and parking control and to ensure that there is the minimum of "red tape" in the implementation of measures decided upon.

As I indicated recently, a Bill arising out of the Report of the Commission on Driving While Under the Influence of Drink or a Drug is being prepared. It will embrace amendments of the 1961 Act on other subjects as well, including some dealing with efficient traffic movement as distinct from road safety. The Safety First Association was assured the financial assistance needed to conduct an experimental scheme of road safety officers, who operate in selected areas in the country and bring, in person, the message of road safety to various groups and centres. I should like to express my appreciation of the work done by the Association.

I conducted two special road safety campaigns, one in December, 1963, which had an immediate success, and another at Easter 1964, which did not appear to secure an equal response from the public. I wish to thank those members of the Dáil who co-operated in these campaigns and also all those responsible members of the community who listened to and applied the advice given them. It may be that, although the immediate results at Easter were disappointing, the seed has been sown for a new approach to stop the drain of life and injury.

I intend to bring the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963, into operation as soon as the necessary regulations have been made. The preparation of the regulations has reached an advanced stage. Meanwhile I have asked the local authorities who will be concerned as planning authorities with the administration of the Act to assemble as much as possible of the data needed for the preparation of the development plans under the Act. The second series of lectures on planning took place last January and were attended by a large and representative gathering of local officials. The emphasis was on the Development Plan. I wish to thank the Irish Branch of the Town Planning Institute for their help in organising these lectures. In bringing the Act into operation we must bear in mind the need of both the central authority and the local bodies for adequate technical assistance. To this end arrangements are in hands for strengthening the planning staff of my Department.

I shall move separately a Supplementary Estimate in connection with An Foras Forbartha Teo or the National Institute for Physical Planning and Construction Research Ltd. This Institute was recently established as a company incorporated under the Companies Acts limited by share capital to engage in research and training in physical planning and development, including road traffic and amenities, and in building and construction. The sum of £30,100 consists of £100 to provide the share capital of the company and £30,000 to provide a grant-in-aid to the Institute to meet its administrative and general expenses in the current financial year. The shares in the company will be held by the Minister for Finance, by myself as Minister for Local Government and one by each of the seven directors whom I have appointed to the Board of Directors of the Company.

The need for this Institute arises from the comprehensive planning legislation enacted by the Oireachtas last year, and from the increasing pressure on our building and construction industry as a result of growing economic and social progress. We are critically short of trained and experienced town and regional planners to undertake the research studies and investigations which must underlie all good planning. We also need fundamental research in this country in present circumstances into new building methods, materials and techniques to enable the building and construction industry to increase its productivity and efficiency.

During the initial five years the Institute will be operated in partnership with the United Nations Special Fund which will provide 11 international experts, fellowships for the training of Irish personnel abroad, books, equipment and general advisory services to the total value of £260,000 approximately. This Institute will not only help Ireland but will provide a model for similar institutes in developing countries. I should like to take this opportunity to express the thanks of the Government for the assistance being given by the United Nations and for their confidence in the model that Ireland and its administrative organisation can provide for developing countries. I have asked the National Institute for Physical Planning and Construction Research Ltd to press ahead in conjunction with the United Nations Special Fund authorities towards recruiting the experts needed to carry out research and to advise on our planning, building and construction problems.

A special responsibility falls on me to secure comprehensive co-ordination of the development plans in the Dublin region. I have appointed Professor Myles Wright, Professor of Civic Design in Liverpool University, to prepare a report on the planning and future development of the Dublin region. I also intend to arrange for specialist advice on the regional planning problems of the other main planning regions in the country.

During the year 900 applications for grants for the clearance of derelict sites were received, the great majority from private persons. Grants totalling £33,581 were allocated in respect of 603 applications. This shows a high degree of public interest in these schemes. I should, however, like to have the more active co-operation of urban authorities. Eighty-four schemes for public amenity grants were received and grants totalling £33,128 were allocated in respect of 34 schemes. Schemes already approved include the development of parks, open spaces, promenades, carparks, recreational and boating facilities and the preservation of historic buildings.

To enable traders to tender for the supply of commodities under the Combined Purchasing Act in smaller regions it has been decided to divide the country into five areas instead of three as formerly. This new system will come into operation for the contract period commencing on 1st July, 1964. The five areas are:

1. Dublin (within 8 miles of GPO).

2. Cork (within 8 miles of GPO).

3. Leinster (excluding Dublin area) with counties Cavan and Monaghan.

4. Munster (excluding Cork area).

5. Connaught with County Donegal.

That is where it should be, too.

The Estimate includes an amount of £14,500 for grants to An Chomhairle Leabharlanna. Of this amount £2,500 will be for meeting current expenses and £12,000 to enable the Council to make grants to library authorities of up to 50 per cent of the loan charges incurred on such projects as the erection or reconstruction of library premises, major book replacement schemes and the purchase of mobile library vehicles.

In 1963-64, the total revenue expenditure of local authorities, excluding Vocational Education Committees, Committees of Agriculture and Harbour Authorities was approximately £69.454 million. The corresponding figure for the current year is estimated at £77.173 million. In 1963-64, receipts from rates amounted to £24.366 million, or 35.1 per cent of expenditure, State grants totalled £31.842 million, or 45.8 per cent of expenditure and miscellaneous receipts, such as rents from local authority houses, fees from paying patients in hospitals and repayments by borrowers under the Small Dwellings Acquisition Acts, accounted for the remainder. In 1964-65, receipts from rates at £25.317 million will meet approximately 32.8 per cent of expenditure while contributions from State sources will account for £37.443 million or 48.50 per cent. For a number of years past, State grants have been meeting a higher percentage of local expenditure than rates and, in fact, the percentage of local expenditure which is charged on the Exchequer has increased over the past few years—the figure for 1938-39 was 39.2 per cent, in 1956-57, it was 42.6 per cent; in 1963-64, 45.8 per cent; and for 1964-65, the estimated figure is 48.50 per cent.

The problem of rising rates, although they are based on property valuations which have little relation to present-day values, is one which has been causing me concern. Local authorities provide so many essential public services that, notwithstanding the substantial extent to which their cost is being met by the Exchequer, the increasing scope and cost of these services are reflected in a continuing increase in local rates. This prompted me to initiate some time ago a comprehensive investigation into the whole concept of local taxation and rating. The aim will be to see whether the present system is just and equitable or whether some other system, fairer to all concerned, can be devised. These investigations cannot, however, be made the subject of hasty decisions and it will be a considerable time before any changes can be brought into operation.

Capital expenditure of local authorities in 1963-64 was £14.507 million, an increase of £2.106 million on 1962-63. Local authorities continued to obtain the bulk of their capital requirements from the Local Loans Fund. The total net indebtedness of local authorities at 31st March, 1964, was estimated at £169.188 million.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

The magnitude of the housing problem which faces the House, the country and the Minister is evidenced by the amount of time which the Minister has devoted in his statement to the question. The fact that of a brief running to 25 pages the Minister has seen fit to devote up to 14 pages to housing is sufficient indication of the problem. The question of housing is not one that is peculiar to any part of the country, although the problem is much more acute in some parts than in others and it is tragically acute in the larger built-up areas, particularly in Dublin. The Minister devoted quite an amount of his time to his efforts to alleviate that situation in Dublin. At the outset I want to say that I wish him well in the endeavour and I hope that the people who need houses and need them badly, and the people who have had to dwell in unfit or dangerous buildings, will get houses and that he will receive the co-operation which he hopes for so that something can be done and done rapidly to remove this type of canker from our midst.

The Minister referred to Dublin and to the problems facing the Corporation, to the shortage of land and to the fact that he has been able to assist the Corporation in some measure in this matter. I take it that the reference is —I am sure the Minister will correct me if I am wrong—to the acquisition of land to the north of the city which was formerly held by the Albert College and to the scheme proposed for that area. A figure of between 3,000 and 3,500 houses was mentioned for this area. The Minister also referred to a number of factors that will need to be cleared up before the decision can be fully implemented. When he refers to the inadequacy of the supply of houses, to the plight of families obliged to occupy unfit or dangerous dwellings and to those who have to pay inequitable rents, this is something which requires much more than just a pious hope that people will co-operate in this matter. If the Minister needs power to deal with this situation, he should seek and take it, so that a problem such as this will not remain. Equally, in other parts of the country where there are housing problems something must be done to deal with the situation.

The Minister referred to the question of building operations as a factor, perhaps, which is influencing the number of contractors who are willing, able or anxious to deal with this problem of local authority housing at present. It is undoubtedly true that this difficulty is being met in many parts of the country. The delay in getting work going is perhaps understood by officials but the public do not understand why what appear to them to be inordinate delays should occur. The Minister responsible for the Department which uses its power of direction and persuasion in other matters would need to use all the powers of persuasion he can in trying to get local housing going.

I know—I am sure it is the experience of other members of the House and even of the Minister in his constituency—there are delays of up to two years and over in regard to local authority housing which has been sanctioned and which has not been commenced. The Minister put his finger on the problem today when he mentioned the attraction of other building operations. There is no doubt that as long as people can find more profitable ways of building, as long as they can engage in the larger type of building in which there is, I should say, a greater return for their endeavours, they will not be prepared to engage in the smaller type of building in which indeed there would be much more wealth of achievement. It is all very well to erect large buildings, suites of offices or large hotels, which may mark the progress of the country but as long as the ordinary people have to remain in the type of building to which the Minister referred here, so long will there be a blot on our social conscience. Therefore, anything the Minister and his Department can do and any assistance the members of this House can give to this work will be well worth while.

Local authorities, and these include corporations, are finding it difficult, within the limits laid down, to obtain contractors to satisfy the need for dwellings. I had hoped the Minister would have indicated his recognition of this problem by giving to the local authorities a higher grant to meet what he referred to as the constantly rising spiral of costs in all departments.

Last year when, in regard to rural housing, we changed over from unserviced dwellings, there was an increase in the amount available to local authorities by way of subsidy for this type of house. Again with the increasing costs—and everybody will admit that within the past year costs have risen rather steeply in this respect—there is further need to keep available the small pool of contractors who are still there to carry on this programme.

Whether the solution to the housing problem will be achieved through the traditional system we have been using over the years or whether these new techniques of which the Minister speaks this evening, will appreciably affect the situation, I am not in a position to judge. The Minister was in my constituency to see a prototype building which was produced there by Cement Limited and which, I understand, gave some promise of being capable of erection in a shorter space of time. I have seen newspaper reports of a building in timber which has been erected at Youghal, County Cork, with an estimated life span of 70 to 75 years and which can be transported from where it is sectionally designed and produced to whatever site may be available for its erection. Its all-in cost before erection is in the region of £800 to £850. I saw a quotation for laying on water, development, and so on, at £400. It would seem, therefore, there is a glimmer of hope that a reasonably-priced dwelling could be made readily available to people who are waiting a long time for houses. Whether this type of building will be used I do not know. The Minister has not indicated yet whether he has a fixed mind in this regard. However, although there are many problems to be faced in his Department, I believe the Minister would need to concentrate most of his attention on housing as being the major problem, followed by this problem of roads on which I shall have something to say later.

In speaking on the Vote on Account, the Minister referred rather disparagingly to previous housing figures. I do not intend to enter this controversy because it is futile. It is a waste of time to be passing backwards and forwards this type of blame as to whether a certain number of houses were or were not built at a certain time and who was or was not responsible for them. The main responsibility is to see that the housing programme goes forward. It is the responsibility of the Minister to see that it is brought to fruition.

On the same occasion, the Minister mentioned a time factor in regard to this problem. At present local authorities are giving attention, as they have for a long time back, to this question of a survey of housing needs. It is not today or yesterday that somebody woke up to the fact that there is an obsolescence in building and that this is at a fixed rate, which I think I quoted here a year ago as one-and-a-quarter per cent. In other words, there is a continuing problem, which the Minister admitted in his speech on the Vote on Account, a problem that will not be solved within the lifetime of any particular Minister for Local Government, or any particular Dáil or series of Dála. As long as people live in dwellings, there will always be need for new dwellings.

However, as the Minister says today, there is the necessity of facing the problem of approximately 6,000 to 8,000 houses which need to be replaced because of obsolescence and that follows on the figure so far revealed to me as a result of the housing survey which is yet incomplete. We still do not know the extent of the problem we are facing. I asked the Minister a question in regard to this matter earlier this year. He says that any figure which might be given at the present moment as to the immediate need is not as reliable as it would seem to be.

Let us take that into account in the light of the progress we have been able to make over the past few years. I do not mind what number of years is taken, nor do I mind what Government or what Party are taken. But, taken over the lifetime of any Government you like, you will find a problem which cannot be caught up with. You can keep chasing it but it will continue for a long time and as long as it is continuous, people will still wait and hope and pray that their turn for a house is coming up. Therefore, I think the time has come when, if we are to make an appreciable inroad into this back-log of housing, we must be prepared to depart from the traditional methods, and see what modern methods can bring to the solution of this problem.

At present, it is not so much a problem of the type of house, the size of house or the materials to be used in the house. The problem is the erection of houses which will give people reasonable standards of comfort and enable families to live together as units of society in somewhat decent surroundings. That is a very big problem and I sympathise with the Minister in his responsibility for it. I shall not lay blame on any Party. The Minister saw fit to allocate blame when speaking on a previous occasion. If I were to take the Minister's phrase of turning on and turning off the tap, I might say that the Minister was in part responsible. To my mind, that would be untrue, as it was untrue for the Minister to make the assertions he made at the time.

Again, this question of housing is a matter which should be divided into the two categories of urban and rural housing. When I spoke on town planning, I mentioned that planning was something which I thought should be taken in two phases, that planning in so far as the built-up areas were concerned included, in the main, the four city areas and that particular attention should be given to Dublin. The same problem arises in regard to housing. Here in Dublin, with the extension of the perimeter of the city, the problem of land shortage for the erection of the local authority type of dwelling within the sphere of the city arises. I am glad the Minister has had the advice of an expert on town planning. He has brought somebody here who is an acknowledged authority on this matter. It will require the best endeavours of the Minister, his officials and the officials of Dublin Corporation to combine planning and housing. Certainly housing must have a prior call on the officials, both at Departmental level and at Corporation level.

In certain places you can have a type of reconstruction which might last 10 or 15 years, and for which a grant might be given. This is not applicable in the urban areas for the reason that in those areas, in the main, we are dealing with the type of dwelling with which we are familiar in the city of Dublin—the slum problem and the town dwelling. I hope these will decrease in a short space of time. These people are not owners of houses. We have not the individual owner of a small dwelling which might be capable at little cost of being made habitable for a further ten or 15 years. We are dealing with the complex problem of a number of families living in this kind of surroundings. We are dealing with somebody who owns that property and from whom major expenditure would be required to enable these people to remain in residence there.

The Minister has used the chalet type of dwelling on the open sites in dealing with some of these problems. The inducements which the Minister might offer in this respect are limited. The Corporation in using its powers has resorted to legal process in dealing with dangerous buildings. Naturally that was something which was bound to occur once the problem of dangerous buildings became acute here in Dublin. Naturally the protection of life became more important than the provision of shelter. I must pay tribute to the efforts of the Corporation and the Minister in this respect, but the problem of quick rehousing is so vast as not to lend itself to ready solution.

I wonder if the Minister's Department and his advisers have in mind any solution beyond that of building large groups of houses on the outskirts of the city. What plans are there in train for building more houses in the centre of the city? Are areas being demolished to be utilised for rehousing in the city centre? Do we intend to provide for older people, for those with two in family, flatlets of the type being built on a large scale in Britain and to some extent here, structures in which the sleeping and kitchen accommodation is private to the couple concerned and communal washing and toilet facilities are available with, perhaps, a warden to look after groups of such people?

These are some of the things I should like to hear about from the Minister. We have a large problem but the solutions we have provided are not sufficient when the problem is of such magnitude. We should set ourselves fixed and determined targets with which we should demand compliance. I do not suggest that complying with such targets will be as simple as saying it but I submit that if we can manage vast building projects involving huge expenditure, and have them completed within contract time, we should just as readily be capable of ensuring that the rehousing of our people will be completed in good time, in a settled time.

The Minister mentioned people who are prepared to move to what he called better type dwellings because circumstances enabled them to do so. He said that is being encouraged. The principle of ownership of houses is one that ought to be encouraged, not only because of the sense of pride ownership gives to a person in his own house but also from the point of view of the local authority. For that reason, I submit the Minister should very seriously consider the question of ensuring that no obstacle is placed in the way of people in urban areas becoming owners of their houses because subsidies are not paid to the local authorities.

I should like to hear the Minister defend the reasons for the differentiation in the treatment of people who dwell within the boroughs of Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford and that given to citizens outside the boroughs. Houses are provided by local authorities using State subsidies. In cases outside the boroughs, the subsidy continues even while the person is purchasing his house, but for those within the boroughs, the subsidies are not continued and consequently the terms which can be offered cannot be as attractive.

The Minister may say there is not that demand from people in these areas for the purchase of their homes. I suggest that where we see a number of people anxious to own their homes and where we are prepared to assist them to do so, that is sufficient evidence of the fact that people do want to own their homes and that they are prepared to make the necessary arrangements over a period of years. If, as the Minister suggests, rising standards of living enter into this at the present time, I submit there ought to be an extra demand from young people anxious to settle down but who cannot settle down because they have not got homes of their own.

It is unreasonable to expect that a young married couple should be housed in the home of either parent. Just as we have a problem in regard to elderly people and their accommodation, we might with propriety look on the problem of newly-weds in the same way. There should be some provision whereby young people could easily find houses, perhaps not suited to the full needs of family life but at least sufficient to enable them to start off in dwellings of their own until circumstances permit them to move to larger houses.

Until such time as we can do that, we are faced with those three problems, those three facets of our social programme: the problem of families living in unsatisfactory, dangerous, insanitary dwellings, the problem of elderly people forced to spend the last years of their lives in tenement rooms and the problem of newly-weds on whom the hope of the nation rests for the future foundation of the community. The last mentioned problem alone could engage the Minister's attention and I can promise him it alone will provide him with many a headache. When we come to what the Minister can do in regard to it, it becomes a matter of the provision of the money to enable the work to get under way. The Minister must be able to offer sufficient inducement to the people who engage in building to undertake this type of programme just as if it were the erection of a large suite of offices or the types of larger buildings which are going up here and there.

Consider the local authority areas. Where local authorities are planning housing schemes, the Minister's overriding control on this type of work at local level ought not to hamper the work. He may say that this is not being done and, if he can say so, I shall be most ready to accept his word. However, circumstances arise from time to time where, between departmental level and local level, there is a slowing-down because of a difference in regard to particular layouts of schemes or minor details. Officials are chosen as a result of open competition and the usual tests. The fact that they have satisfied the Local Appointments Commissioners ought to be sufficient guarantee that these people are competent to do their work. I cannot say I have seen it often but once or twice I have seen the layout of housing schemes changed and in my opinion not for the better. That is something that ought not to occur.

Consider a contractor who takes on work and who, despite all the prodding from the local end, is not proceeding with the work as he ought. This individual can keep a scheme lying there because the local authorities have so few contractors that they dare not tread on his toes and they have to proceed as well as they can. Recently I inquired in regard to one or two of these at local level. I found that although there was a builder prepared to undertake these works at the tendered price it was impossible for the local authority to allot him the work and they would have to re-advertise it and seek sanction from the Minister's Department. Such bottlenecks could safely be eliminated.

The Minister and his Department should at any time have sufficient brake on the local authorities and sufficient knowledge of the workings of the local departments by reason of the Minister's auditors who very thoroughly carry out their audits of the accounts which are annually presented to the Minister's Department. In regard to technical qualifications, of layout or design, I take it that the technical capabilities of the people advising the local authorities are of a sufficiently high calibre to ensure that the type of work which they recommend is of a good and high order.

I appeal to the Minister, then, to see if he can iron out these snags. I appeal to him to increase the rate of subsidy payable in respect of local authority housing. I think the basis for this is admitted in his opening statement because the Minister now finds it possible to raise the level of loan to the purchasers of homes. The fact that we can raise the level of loans is a sufficient indication that there is need for raising the assistance in respect of housing of this type.

With regard to the raising of the amount of loan from £2,000 to £2,250, what standard is used on which the loan will be based? Is there a fixed standard or is it one which is applied by the local engineer who inspects the house and determines its value? I know of cases where contract documents showing the price which a house was costing were produced but were not accepted in the estimation of the amount of loan to be given to the applicant. Surely it ought to be appreciated that a person who undertakes to build his home is undertaking a major burden? He is undertaking a commitment to the future inasmuch as, for a period of from 30 to 35 years, he will be repaying the loan at a pretty steep rate of interest. The amount which a house costs is the yardstick for the grant. The person concerned must convince the local authority of what he has paid for the house and that is a worrying matter for him at a worrying time. If a document is authenticated as above board, I think it ought to suffice. Nobody involves himself in expenditure of this kind now without having such a document. Production of this should be sufficient guarantee of the value of the house. The raising of these limits would be useful in this connection, provided the valuation of the house is not being depressed. That is being done. The valuation being put on new houses is being depressed. One wonders why. I appeal to the Minister to circularise local authorities and point out that the fact that we unduly depress the value of a new building is creating an additional hazard and difficulty for the person trying to meet his own problem.

In regard to the repair programme of local authorities, a vast problem has been brought to light because a very large number of these houses are old and it is becoming increasingly costly to put them into proper repair and ensure that their life will be worth the money spent on them. I see that the Minister is still getting a large number of appeals in this respect. He mentioned that 820 such appeals reached him and the peculiar thing is that in 692 of these cases dealt with during the year, the Minister's inspectors found it necessary to order extra work to be done. One would think that the local authority inspectors who inspect these dwellings in the first instance and certify them as fit before they are vested in the tenant would have seen the defects the Minister's inspectors later saw.

It is amazing that in so many cases the Minister had to intervene and order these defects to be rectified because in the experience of those dealing with local authorities at present, one knows the tenants have directly appealed to whoever inspected the works in the first instance and pointed out the defects they thought existed and their complaint is verified by the fact that in this large number of cases the Minister found it necessary to say the tenant was right and those who certified the repairs as adequate were wrong.

I think it is again a question of money. It is hard to blame the officials of the local authorities because they are trying to work within an annual programme and the money available and trying to do the best they can but I do not think this is sufficient reason or justification for allowing such a situation to occur in which so many appeals are successful.

The Minister speaks of reducing the back-log of undetermined appeals. While 820 were received during the year, 853 were discharged; in other words, 33 in the back-log were dealt with. Would the Minister indicate how many appeals are still undetermined? Would he decide at this stage to make a special effort to deal with them because it would help the tenants waiting and hoping for improvements in their homes and it would also help the local authorities by giving them a clearer picture of their future commitments in respect of housing which they thought they had finished with?

I previously mentioned a matter which I think should be mentioned again, dwellings designed for housing families. Very often these dwellings contain three bedrooms and we find in dealing with representations made to us that the need for a further bedroom becomes an urgent problem very frequently with a rising family today. Very often even in the cottages and rural houses which are vested at present, the tenants have had to approach the Department to seek assistance in providing an extra bedroom. Three bedrooms may seem sufficient when one is building a house but when you consider that later you must provide for the parents and a mixed family of boys and girls and possibly for an individual who may become sick, the inadequacy of such accommodation becomes immediately apparent. It would not be overstraining the finances to ensure that from the beginning we would have sufficient bedroom accommodation to enable the normal family to maintain a reasonable standard in regard to social needs.

It is unreasonable and unfair to expect young people to grow up with a proper sense of responsibility in an overcrowded home. I readily admit the Minister's first priority must be the provision of homes and that may envisage more of the three bedroom dwellings but I should like the Minister to impress on local authorities that where their housing surveys show they are dealing with families consisting of three or four in family of different sexes, they should be accommodated in four-bedroom homes.

In connection with this type of addition of a room to a home the Minister mentioned the provision by which a local authority may make loans available. In his speech on the Vote on Account the Minister also referred to this matter and suggested that we did not know what we were talking about. I would ask the Minister this question: When the 1962 Housing Act was introduced, did it amend the Labourers Act; did it specifically define "labourer" and is there an overriding provision which precludes the giving of a two-thirds grant in regard to the provision of additional accommodation or the reconstruction of a home to persons other than members of the labouring class and those within what was described as the small farmer category? I will be glad if I am found to be wrong but I think the Minister will find that artisans as such —and artisans and tradesmen are members of a vanishing race in the country —are precluded from getting the two-thirds grant which is available to persons of the two classes that I have mentioned. If that anomaly does exist in the Act I would ask the Minister to consider it and to deal with it in the new Housing Bill.

The second big problem dealt with in the Minister's brief is the question of roads and road safety. The Minister is fortunate in having a large sum available to him in the Road Fund at the present time. While the growth of road traffic has brought problems to the Minister, it has had the result of giving the Minister control over a pretty large sum of money which he can use for road purposes. If the Minister can disburse over £8 million at the present time in connection with roads, I suppose we can say that it is very fortunate that the motoring population has increased and that this large sum has come into the coffers at the Minister's disposal.

The Minister mentioned the various sums allocated as between arterial roads, main roads and county roads. At a previous stage the Minister was finding fault with Fine Gael proposals to make grants available for county roads and lesser roads. I want to reiterate that Fine Gael will carry out those proposals and to ask the Minister is there anything wrong in that. Is there any reason, for instance, why people, who are taxpayers and ratepayers, who live on roads that have not been scheduled or taken over by local authorities, should not share in the benefits provided by expenditure on roads? Is there any reason why the roads on which they live should be permanently boreens? These people are entitled to consideration. So far as I can ascertain, nobody has laid down a standard in that connection. It has been left to individual engineers to determine whether five, seven or ten people living on a boreen will have that boreen taken over by the local road authority or not, and that despite the expressed wish of the elected representatives of the ratepayers. This is a matter to which the Minister would need to give attention.

As I have said before, we have an excellent main road system, a main road system that the country can be proud of, a main road system which, of course, will have to be maintained. I wonder if we are working to a fixed plan in regard to arterial and main roads, or are we dealing with the question of main roads and arterial roads haphazardly according as the mood directs. It would seem to me as a person who is not qualified in regard to engineering problems, that we are expending vast sums of money on the removal of little hillocks on these roads; we are using heavy machinery to tear up sections of roads and to eliminate undulations. I have heard this defended from the point of view that it is necessary in modern traffic conditions and particularly necessary in this country for the purposes of tourism.

What brings tourists here? Why do Continental tourists desert the autobahns, the M1s, the A5s? Do tourists come here to speed over roads or do they come here to avoid that type of road and to meander along, enjoying the scenery which these undulations allow them to see? One of the attractions that this country can offer to foreign tourists is a variety of views on even a short length of roadway. Is it our wish to speed tourists from the port of entry to the port of departure? At the present time one would imagine that it was a question of rushing them from one large hotel to another in the shortest possible space of time.

I do not think this is of any advantage to the tourist, and certainly it is of no advantage to the people of the countryside and of the towns and villages. In some cases the latter are being by-passed to make way for these modern speedways. When I see this happening, I wonder if we are using the money expended on these roads to the best advantage. When I see the way the speed limits are placed and see the road development taking place, such as the moving back of boundary walls and properties and the enlarging of the carriageways, it seems strange then that in many of these places a driver has to proceed at 30 m.p.h. If I get into the line of traffic on one of these highways and travel at 30 m.p.h., I presume everybody else must stay behind me so long as I keep at 30 m.p.h. I cannot understand in such circumstances why we should be endeavouring to make these roads so wide at such expense.

In a number of cases there is a need for the easing of bends where these bends are shown to be dangerous. I say quite frankly to the Minister, however, that I am not at all satisfied that the removal of bends has made the roads any safer. Indeed, on the continent at present, they are using a type of artificial brake on the roads to deflect the lights of vehicles at night. A great hazard to life and limb at present is that when cars travel fast on a straight stretch at night, the oncoming motorist is dazzled and an unfortunate pedestrian is, perhaps, caught in between. The people who built our roads left these bends in them and in modern conditions—although perhaps not designedly so—they could certainly prove to be a safety measure rather than a hazard, provided they are sufficiently eased.

There is need for modification in regard to the siting of speed limit signs. I would hope the Minister would conclude his investigation of this as soon as possible and arrange for these modifications. At present there are some towns and villages which believe they should be included in the speed limit zones. It is hard to understand how a local demand of this kind is not being met. I know the answer is that the technical committees did not recommend it, but these committees should have regard to the local circumstances.

The Minister referred to his reclassification. That is both timely and badly needed. The "Stop" sign is now a thing of the past, but a number of accidents still occur because of the emergence of traffic from lesser roads on to major roads. One wonders what might be done in that respect, and I am sure the Minister and his Department have given it a good deal of thought. Somewhere on the continent I saw a series of lines which became increasingly thick as you approached a road junction. This was to draw attention to the fact that you were approaching a junction. I do not know whether this would have any effect. At present one rather despairs of any solution of this problem of the constant slaughter on the roads.

When I discussed this problem with somebody recently, he mentioned one of the things which was a contributory factor to one of the more horrible types of accident, that is, where a car is driven into the rear of a vehicle moving slowly or stationary on the road. Nobody can deny that such vehicles, especially in our climate, throw up an amount of mud. This obscures the red lights supposed to be a warning to traffic travelling behind. I am sure it is not beyond the inventive minds of the lighting people to produce for the rear of a vehicle a wiper of the same type as used for cleaning the windscreen to ensure that the rear red lights are always clean and may be seen clearly by vehicles behind.

There is also the question of the parked vehicle. Again, when these vehicles have travelled a distance, the rear warning lights are obscured by mud. Perhaps the tired driver has neglected to clean them. But there should be an obligation on people parking such vehicles, before leaving them unattended, to clean these reflectors, so that there will be a clear red warning light at the rear of the parked vehicle. A car approaching at speed one of these vehicles with its warning light obscured is upon it before the driver has time to realise the major hazard he is facing.

I join with the Minister in complimenting the safety first associations we have at present on their admirable work. These people merit our gratitude for their co-operation and interest. But we need far more than the interest of individuals if this problem is to be dealt with. As I say, I do not know of any ready solution. I believe there is none. I believe it is just a matter of a combination of patience and perseverance on the part of the Minister, his advisers and others, and of the Press in particular drawing attention to needless killing which should not occur.

I suppose there is something to be said for uniformity of administration in regard to water supplies. I have heard a good many complaints from the agricultural community about the slow pace with which applications are dealt with and the delay in carrying out inspections. I know the inspectorial staff available to the Minister is not a large one but there should be a speeding up in dealing with applications from people who are willing to make the effort to instal running water in their homes. Approval should be given sufficiently early to enable them to go ahead. Paradoxical as it may seem, the major delay is in getting started. Another problem is that there are not many contractors prepared to undertake this work and it is a question of first come, first served. It is important, therefore, that an applicant should have approval given without any undue delay.

I know group schemes have the Minister's attention. He has done a great deal in trying to foster the development of such schemes. I have been told that difficulty arises in some instances with regard to the quality of the water. Is it always potable water? Can people drink it in safety? It is impossible to tell until it becomes available. It may then be too late. Would the Minister consider some simple system of chlorinating the water to make it potable in the same way as larger schemes are chlorinated for towns and villages? Something like that is necessary if the value of these schemes is not to be lost. The most important provision is proper drinking water because drinking water is more valuable than any other type.

I want now to refer to the Local Authorities (Works) Act which, as far as the Minister is concerned, is a dead letter. He said, referring to the Fine Gael programme, that we were to note it was only the Act which would be brought into operation. The Minister was playing with words. That was understandable because of the occasion. Now I want to point out quite deliberately that there is still a problem with regard to flooding and minor drainage. Flooding occurs despite the progress made under arterial drainage. If the Local Authorities (Works) Act were in operation, work done under it could give very beneficial results to quite a large number of people.

Constituents have approached me in a number of cases in relation to streams which are not the care of the Office of Public Works in the drainage schemes envisaged or in operation. Farmers are unable to drain their lands effectively because the outfall is into streams which are neither deep enough nor wide enough to take the water off the land. These streams could be cleaned, widened and deepened under the Local Authorities (Works) Act. There would be no question of control passing from the Minister. Through the officers of the local authority and the officials of his own Department, who vouch for these schemes, he would have full control over what he might consider to be wasteful expenditure. It was not sufficient justification for throwing the Act aside to say there had been wasteful expenditure without indicating where that expenditure occurred.

I am glad there has been a review of fire precautions and fire standards. There have been a number of worrying fires, happily with not too great a loss of life but, at the same time, a sufficiently serious loss to make us realise that we cannot be in any way complacent about the matter. There are numbers of halls throughout the country which are subject to inspection by the fire chiefs in the different local authority areas. It is no good fooling ourselves into thinking that these halls never hold more than the numbers specified at any given time. Experience has shown that the number is often far in excess of that permitted. It is incumbent upon all who are responsible to ensure adequate precautions are taken.

I understand the Minister has circularised local authorities in this matter. It would be an excellent idea to publish the regulations and the standards he considers should be maintained so that those responsible for the erection and running of these halls will be well aware of their responsibilities to the public. We have had our own tragic experiences in this respect. Anyone reading recently of the effect which a stampede can have amongst the public would be horrified to think of what might happen in some buildings in which large numbers congregate in this country from time to time. Apparently there are not sufficient safety arrangements to permit them to get out in a sufficiently short space of time.

I am glad the Minister has made an extra sum available to An Chomhairle Leabharlanna. The library service is an excellent social service, and an excellent social amenity, particularly in the rural areas. The use of the mobile library is one of the highlights of the advances in this service. Not only is there pleasure to be derived from reading the books made available to the public, but there is also a vast amount of knowledge available to the reading public. I am very happy to pay tribute to the work of the librarians. They have been stocking up, and bringing their books up-to-date, to enable the various interested groups—of whom there are many in the country now—to avail fully of the library service.

Groups like Macra na Tuaithe, Macra na Feirme, Muintir na Tíre and the Irish Countrywomen's Association, to mention a few of the various interested groups, have had their needs catered for by the library authorities. I heartily commend to the Minister that an increased amount of money should be made available to the library committees in the various areas. A further and very useful addition to the work they have been doing is that now, in conjunction with the Department of Education, the libraries are being made available to the schools. The mobile library vans are very important as, indeed, is the increase in the stock of books available to the county librarians. With the expenditure of this small amount of money, a tremendous national asset can be built up in the form of a more widely informed public on many matters.

When we mention finance in relation to local government, we are inclined to think in terms of rates. There is no doubt that the rise in the volume of money collected by way of rates has been very steep. We are inclined to forget what the Minister calls sums provided by the Exchequer; in other words, sums provided, again, by the taxpayers. I do not like the word "Exchequer". The Exchequer is nothing more than the public under another name. What is collected by the Department of Finance is collected from the public, and the various Departments disburse it. In his turn the Minister disburses various amounts to the local authorities. It is a growing amount. The Minister points to the fact that the Government make more available to the local authorities than they provide themselves. Of course that is one way in which the public pay themselves more on one score than on another. Undoubtedly that is due to the increased services which the public are getting. I wonder are the public always demanding them—I am not so clear about that—but they are certainly getting them.

The central administration pass on responsibility to the local administration for dealing with legislation which is passed through this House. Certainly the Legislature intended that money should be made available to the local authority to do that. The Legislature can, in their wisdom, pass an Act here which confers benefits and equally imposes on the local authority the necessity to raise perhaps just as much of a certain sum of money as is provided from the centre by the State. When I say "the State", I mean the people as a whole. The taxpayers as a whole contribute to the national finances, and the ratepayers as individuals in their local areas contribute to the local finances. I understand the Minister is now making inquiries into these matters. I hope the result will not be too long delayed, and that the whole question of the financing of the local authorities will be examined in the light of modern trends.

Everyone admits that the value of money is less than it was. The cost of living has increased; the cost of administration has increased; and the cost of local services has increased. I already asked have we any determined priorities in regard to the services we wish to provide, because the ability of people to pay at any stage is governed by the amount they can produce gainfully from their own employment. Our present system in which rates are based on valuation needs to be looked at again. The balance between the funds made available from the Government and from the local end should bear a relationship to two factors: one, an order of priority in regard to the services we wish to provide; and secondly, priority in regard to the ability of our people to pay.

That brings me to what I should like to say in conclusion. In this country we speak of local government and I wonder what do we mean by it. Do we mean government at local level, or do we mean a type of local administration of central Government? We impose on local authorities the obligation of carrying out the provisions of Acts passed in this House. At the same time, the Minister's Department is able, by way of regulations and orders, to lay down determining standards for the local authorities. I wonder where do the elected representatives of the people come in in this matter? What are the rights and powers of the locally elected representatives? I want to suggest that their rights and their powers, at the present time, are very little and that there is growing up a bureaucracy which is determining what the local representatives may do. No matter how a council may consider a matter and what their views may be, unless it falls in with the views of the officials, whether they be at local level or Departmental level, the views of the elected representatives do not hold in these matters. Their powers are very much circumspect at the present time.

The Minister ought to have another look at the County Management Act, as it was passed and amended. Has the time come in this country, after all the years of experience, when the locally elected representatives are not to be trusted with the running of their own local areas? In a great many cases quite a number of these people are members of this House, who carry the responsibility here in the National Parliament of the wishes of the people who elected them. They join in a responsible way in presenting a crosssection here of public opinion and of what they think is right and proper in the public interest. Surely those selfsame people cannot become devoid of their intelligence and judgment when they move from this chamber to the council chamber, in whatever part of this country it may be? It is a complete denial of the intelligence of these people, a complete denial of their interest in the local needs of our people to think they are left with so few powers at the present time.

I consider the time has come when the Minister for Local Government ought to give back to the locally elected representatives of the people of a county their rights and privileges in regard to the administration of the local areas. There is in the implementation of the Planning Act to which the Minister intends shortly to give effect the right of reserving to the elected representatives certain functions. The Minister in this modern Act, made an act of faith in the wisdom of the elected representatives and I want to suggest to him that, having done that, he should go further and give back to these very same elected representatives far more control and far more discretion in regard to the running of the affairs of the administrative areas for which they were elected.

I understand we are in general agreement about moving to a very strict time table so I will confine myself to a very limited part of the Minister's speech. It is a tribute to the Minister that he covered so much ground. His Department seems to cover such a vast area of responsibility that it seems to be too much for one man to try to carry through by himself. It appears to be a Department of quite outrageously large responsibility involving itinerants, Georgian buildings, town planning, local housing and so on. However, it is a tribute to the Minister that one rarely hears any serious complaints in regard to his handling of the Department.

There are a few points I should like to deal with. The first one, of course, concerns the present Dublin housing problem. It is not easy to criticise housing authorities for failures. Prima facie, I suppose, one could say Dublin Corporation, during the past 40 years, have, to a considerable extent, cleared the majority of the slums. That seems to be due to the drive of the pre-1940s —between the 20's and 40's—under the various Ministers for Local Government, Seán T. Ó Ceallaigh and Deputy MacEntee. Afterwards, under the late Deputy Tim Murphy, between 1948 and 1951, another great move forward was made in relation to housing. But there is no doubt at all that in recent years the housing section of the Dublin Corporation have gravely failed in their responsibilities to house our people.

I know there are explanations put forward such as the move from rural Ireland into the cities and also, I understand, there have been difficulties in relation to site finding. These are problems which any housing authority must face. The Corporation has now had this problem for at least 40 years, during the whole period of self-Government. For that reason they must be indicted for having shown gross incompetence in dealing with this terribly important problem of providing housing for families.

I went to see the unfortunate people living in Griffith Barracks and I think it was one of the most scandalous things I have ever seen. It was around Christmas time and these unfortunate people had their homes broken. The wives were living with the children and the husbands were living away from them. Although it was around Christmas time the rest of the city appeared to go about quite unconcerned that their fellow citizens were forgotten and were living in these seriously sub-standard conditions. It was an emergency situation but the emergency would not have arisen if the Corporation were conscious of their responsibilities. Of course, anybody can formulate clear projects to relieve future needs on any aspect of local government. It was the responsibility of the Corporation to assess likely housing needs and see that the relevant steps were taken to meet those needs.

If there was a shortage of money or shortage of legislation for the acquisition of sites, they should have made that point clear to the Minister. If he had asked this House for the necessary legislation, I am sure he would have got it. The Minister has been remarkably patient with the Corporation and has been remarkably generous in his statements here in which he glosses over the unbelievable complacency of the Corporation which, apparently, until he asked them to come in and see him, were to build or to complete fewer houses this year than last year. There were 1,270 houses built in the previous year and they were going to build fewer than 1,200 houses at a time when they had 7,000 people looking for houses with 1,300 applications from newly-wed people. That is a very important consideration; there are young married couples anxious to establish a home and a family and who, on the Corporation's production of houses, must wait approximately five to seven years before getting a house. Therefore there were 7,000 names on the waiting list and in addition, there were nearly 1,500 who were placed on the list arising from the collapse of tenement houses. Therefore the need was, according to the Minister's figures, approximately 8,500 and to supply that need, Dublin Corporation Housing Committee was to provide fewer than 1,200 houses this year.

What kind of human beings are these people that they can tolerate this kind of inefficiency on their own part and the consequent very serious hardships that must follow? The social consequences, too, which follow from people living in slum conditions, or overcrowded conditions, living with relations, with in-laws or living in insanitary and unhygienic housing conditions are inestimable. How can we accept, with the inertia shown by the Corporation over recent years, the position in which this serious problem was allowed to go on virtually unattended to? It seems to me that they were completely unaware of the magnitude of their failure. It was not they who said that they would like to go and see the Minister; it was the Minister who was worried about the situation and called them in and it was the Minister who apparently resolved their problem by two means, one, the provision of sites and the other the solution of the water problem. Surely it is not the Minister's specific problem to find sites for the housing authorities or to deal with matters such as the question of water in the city of Dublin? His is the solution of national problems. It is the Corporation's responsibility to deal with Corporation problems. Has the Minister any explanation which he can give the public for this failure on the part of the Corporation in the past few years?

The previous speaker lamented as many of us do, the diminution of local responsibility in local government, and he asked if it had come to this, that local representatives were not to be trusted with the running of their own affairs. Nobody more than myself would regret any diminution in the democratic processes. As the holder of minority views, I am completely dependent on the existence of democracy for my continued expression of these views, and even if it were only for the fact that I held that vested interest in democracy, I would hate to see any diminution. Surely, however, when local representatives behave in the way the Corporation have behaved in the past few years, in their gross neglect of their primary duties to the unfortunate citizens of Dublin, they are providing the kind of assistance which people who desire to see the development of the central, all-powerful, all-autocratic bureaucracy want? It is this kind of thing that creates the demand by people for some form of central action, this business of local discussion and debate that local authority power is merely getting in the way of progress, and then one has the development towards the growth of the bureaucratic and even the autocratic State and eventually the dictator and the diminution of democracy as a power.

As far as I can see, the Corporation have not taken any serious steps yet. The Minister has not given any specific figures which would lead one to believe that the housing problem is to be dealt with in a relatively short time. The fact that there are 8,500 people who require houses means they could be waiting anything from six to nine years for a house. That is a serious situation which should not exist in a society such as ours.

I am not going to dwell on the new methods which have been referred to but I have no doubt the worker, the craftsman and the trade unionist will be asked to make concessions in order to allow this development to take place. Again, it seems to be calling on somebody to make the sacrifice to achieve an end the necessity for which should not have arisen. I believe that the emergency type house built in post-war Britain was appallingly ugly. I should imagine it was most uncomfortable to live in and that from the economic point of view, it gave a poor return because of its impermanence. I think we should stick where possible to the traditional building methods and the standards of comfort and amenity which the public expect in a house, rather than allow the problem to become so big that it has to be dealt with by makeshift emergency methods, which, in the end, mean that certain people may have to give up their rights, and others, the residents, may have to live in what are essentially substandard conditions, all due to the failure of the Corporation to deal with their first problem, the housing of their citizens.

I should like to know from the Minister what has been the explanation of the Dublin Corporation for the fact that they have not provided a sufficiency of houses when one looks around the city and sees great buildings going up on all sides, exclusively office buildings. One of the most undesirable developments in the city has been that house building is taking place on the periphery of the city. This has meant the displacement of families who have lived in a particular area for many generations and has called for unnecessary sacrifice in asking people to go out and live in places such as Finglas and Ballyfermot when sites in the centre of the city were quite easily available for multi-storey buildings, thus enabling people to live in the environment of their job and of their old family or village associations.

I say that in relation to certain parts of the city, for instance, Ringsend, in my own constituency, which is a very old fishing village. Many of these people continued to live in the most insanitary slum conditions rather than go outside the city, not only because of the emotional factors but also because of the financial factors involved, the cost of getting, say, from Ballyfermot down to the docks or wherever their job might be. Now we find this decision to build great multi-storey premises in the heart of the city for office accommodation. They are not being pushed out to the periphery; they are allowed to settle down in the centre of the city.

I wish the Minister would recommend to the local authorities to the extent he can that all big flat developments should contain accommodation of at least one floor, or whatever would be necessary, in view of the figures which I am sure he can find if he wishes to, in order to provide for old people. Deputy Dillon has constantly referred to this and I share his view on it, that, if possible, old people should not be isolated in large county homes. There are circumstances in which this must happen. Where it is necessary, then the conditions should be as good as possible. However, I do think it is possible for the Minister for Local Government to reorientate the minds of the local authorities so that whether housing accommodation is provided in flats or housing estates a percentage will be for the old people and if people have to leave one particular area for another, the old people can go with them, and live in the flats in the old environment in which they have grown up and grown old.

Why was there difficulty in getting sites? It seems to me there has been a very great clearance throughout the city and that nearly always the clearance has been followed by the building of great office blocks, mostly ugly office blocks. The other development I see is the allocation of a valuable building site to industry, an industry which may employ 20 or 25 young people, a relatively unimportant industrial development which will occupy a site which could provide adequate housing accommodation for 100, 150, or 200 families, if there were flat development of the multi-storey type. The whole question of the priorities is an important one. The first priority should be the provision of proper housing accommodation as near as possible to people's former homes in order to reduce to a minimum the disruption associated with moving from one place to another, which people do not like, and also the very important economic factor involved in the very high bus fares in going backwards and forwards to schools, jobs, and so on.

I cannot see that the Corporation could have any acceptable excuse when one looks over the remarkable achievements of most of the countries of Europe, following the wonderful postwar drive in most of them, where almost invariably they started off with completely devastated cities and towns, which had been bombed flat. There was no such problem here. Most of these European cities have been rebuilt in the most exciting and stimulating way, and this is in addition to building up industries and all the other needs in the creation of a modern city.

I believe the Corporation have particularly failed in this regard, in view of all the advantages they had and the very few limitations on their development schemes. I was given to understand there was always plenty of money, that there was no lack of technical or professional staff, and no serious lack of skilled workers and craftsmen of various kinds. Again, I believe that even in those circumstances, it would be possible to give priority to the needs of housing authorities. They should get priority in ensuring that all the prerequisites to the creation of ideal housing schemes were made available.

The Minister referred very briefly to itinerants. Nothing is more surprising and inexplicable to me than the behaviour of the Corporation towards the unfortunate itinerants, inexplicable to this extent: here was the Corporation who had 8,500 people for whom they had failed to provide adequate housing; they mounted a most vicious and vindictive campaign against these unfortunate people in order to remove them from sites where they were trying to provide their own—to say housing accommodation would be an exaggeration—living accommodation. I should have thought the last thing the Corporation would do would be to draw attention to their own inadequacy by hunting these unfortunate people from the sites when they were trying to keep themselves and shelter themselves from the elements.

I know the problem of itinerancy is a complicated one. I believe the way in which it was dealt was particularly brutal and sadistic and I think great discredit was cast on our society in that the way they were treated was tolerated by our people. These are human beings—men, women and their children. Very few of us are far removed from the conditions in which these people live. We are all first generation peasants, one generation removed from living in small cottages, cabins, or whatever it may be. The next stage was as itinerants on the side of the road.

It is all part of the tradition and history of our people. We had to go through this appalling Gethsemane of living for such a long period of our lives. These people are the remnants of that part and pattern of our society in which there are illiterate people who have no fixed homes, uneducated and with little or no skill or craft. These are the products of our environment and of our society. It makes my blood boil—I shall be frank about it—when I listen to our radio, for which the Minister responsible is present, and hear people asking supercilious questions about these people—do they steal; are they dirty; do they fight —as if they were animals out of the trees instead of our fellow countrymen, whom our society degrades into living in these conditions.

They are the products of an environment. The attitude of one particular interviewer reminds me of what one hears and reads about the behaviour of the South Africans to their people under apartheid, the segregation of one section of society into the shanty towns. You must cut them off because they are dirty, they are unreliable, they fight, they steal, they drink and they have illegitimate children. That is the whole appalling class division between us and them, or the Southern States of the United States. Fortunately, they are trying to do something about it there. It should not happen here. We should not adopt that attitude to our fellowmen. It is only a short time since it was said that we kept pigs in the parlour and that the Irishman was dirty. Some time ago there was a notice down at the quays "Cattle and Irishmen this way". We are only one generation removed from that position and some of us even less.

Even though the itinerants are a trying lot, each individual is a very precious thing to any society, be it man, woman or child. One of the most dreadful results of itinerancy is that anybody who knows these people, or has any knowledge of them, knows that they undergo very great hardship. I even feel sorry for the animals because of the way in which they have to live. Most people will have read about the lady who lost her child while living in a canvas hut. The child died of cold, hunger and neglect. This is a crime of our society and cannot be ignored and neglected. I am surprised at a Minister for whom I have the greatest regard treating this in this manner. He may be influenced by his ministerial colleagues in this, but I am surprised that he has made no serious attempt to deal with this problem of itinerants. He has not even attempted an interim solution to the problem.

This is a complex problem but it is capable of solution. I believe these people must be integrated into society, as thousands of us have been integrated into what we consider in our own selfconscious way a civilised life. That must happen for this denied minority which is left. It is no good sweeping them under the carpet by pushing them out of Dublin and into a neighbouring county which in turn pushes them into the next county. How can we remain indifferent to this aspect of human society? When we want to provide caravan sites, no serious difficulty arises in providing them. We had the emergency solution of the housing problem. There are caravan sites in my constituency and I know in and around Dublin there are groups of caravans providing amenities such as toilet and water. There is no difficulty in providing these caravan sites. In my own county of Wicklow, and in Donegal, Clare, Kerry and Cork, there are plenty of caravan sites with all the amenities laid on and no difficulty at all arises. How is it we can take these views that are extraordinarily partisan, and at the same time closely related to racism and the other evil of apartheid? The difference between us and them is they do not need the amenities we need. Their children do not need education or the old people do not need care when they grow old. Anyone who has had anything to do with them will know that they would prefer to live in better homes, be educated and live regular lives.

I should like to beg the Minister to reconsider his approach to this problem and to ask his colleagues in the Government to give us an interim solution for this problem of providing temporary accommodation for those unfortunate people and stop hounding them. The local authority, with the appalling record which the housing section of the Corporation has, is in no position to deprive people of accommodation, even the primitive kind, which the itinerants had provided for themselves.

I do not wish to dwell on this matter further. There appears to have been a kind of conspiracy on the part of the public generally, and I suspect the Minister and the newspapers who could be effective in this. The Minister should urge public bodies and local authorities to take a greater interest in how these people live, how they grow old and how they die. There appears to have been a general conspiracy of silence about the existence of the problem. The hardship which those people have had to put up with particularly in winter months is completely scandalous in this day and age. It should be brought to an end. It is the Minister who is responsible and I hope he will take positive action to do something about it.

Finally, I wish to refer to the control of building in the city of Dublin. It is a problem that is becoming particularly acute as far as the Minister is concerned because his authority will be required for any serious changes likely to take place. He knows as well as I do that many of the changes taking place do not appear to be desirable changes. I wonder if he has any intention of trying to impose any kind of overall plan for the creation of a new Dublin. It is clear the whole centre of old Dublin is being cleared away and that eventually we must reach the position where central building is acquired to replace the cleared areas.

To what extent will the Minister be responsible for it? To what extent will he try to ensure there is not, first of all, over-building in the city centre? There is scope left for the development of parks and recreation grounds. This is an aspect of housing development which has been seriously neglected: a relatively small proportion of parkland, recreation type development in relation to our housing schemes generally, has been evident.

The question of the Georgian houses is a very thorny one. It is curious the things that seem to excite the minds of a fairly constant minority in the city. What will the Minister's views be about the development of the city in relation to its Georgian houses? I should like to say, as somebody who has lived in one for a number of years, that I consider them most uncomfortable to live in, that I can see very little case for them if one looks at the problem from the functional point of view. There is very little case for asking anybody to live in a Georgian house. They are very large and very difficult to heat; they were built at a time when the service and care of them was quite a different problem from what it is today, I am glad to say.

As to the development of the Georgian houses as offices, there are people who believe aesthetic influences must be superimposed on functional values. They are usually people who hold such views where it does not mean any personal cost to themselves. I wonder how one could be justified in approaching a body like the ESB and asking them not to develop buildings for their purposes in the way which they think will give the optimum output for expenditure, while, at the same time, not being prepared to make any financial contributions themselves.

State bodies like the ESB and others are in a particularly vulnerable position because if they do not do a good job, if they run at a loss, if they show they are inefficient and incompetent, nobody will criticise them more quickly than the people who tend to ask them to operate in unsatisfactory or inadequate surroundings. I believe that if one does not permit an organisation to develop its property in the way it thinks is most satisfactory to itself from the financial viewpoint, then one has to face the fact that this will mean increased inefficiency and probably a greater ultimate cost to the consumer.

From my point of view, both Fitzwilliam Square and Merrion Square are very lovely and beautiful and I shall greatly regret to see them pass, if they do. I do not think the other Georgian houses which are vacant, which are no longer lived in, are particularly lovely or particularly beautiful, and it seems to me to show a certain lack of self-confidence in a society that it does not believe it can replace the rather lovely facade of the Georgian houses by something equally lovely or lovelier still. The lack of self-confidence in our own architectural or artistic ability which displays itself in refusing to replace those houses is something much to be regretted.

It is the job of a generation to create something which belongs to that generation. If we have anything artistically to give to Dublin for posterity, then we should do it. Anybody who has any idea of the magnificent buildings by some of the great American architects, or the development of Brasilia, or the rebuilding of Coventry, must understand that it is a very exciting challenge to a society to create something which is the production of a particular generation at a particular time in history. It is not any good clinging to something which may be lovely but which is out of its time, which is essentially effete, which in relation to its function as a house is uncomfortable to live in and which used as an office is inefficient.

What other justification can there be? There are limitations to the value one can put on the strictly aesthetic requirements of any problem. At the same time, I am certain I do not believe in the wholesale destruction of lovely buildings. I am in favour, if necessary—if the onward march of history makes it necessary —of replacing them with something as lovely or lovelier. That is a challenge to our generation which we may not be able to meet. We may not have the artistic content in our society to meet it. I suspect we have not got it. However, I do not know enough about it to say whether we have or not. We should not be afraid of meeting a challenge. Other nations and other societies have done so.

I believe that the decision in relation to the Georgian houses in Gardiner Street was very wrong. If, in after years, I should be asked what Dublin did in the 1960s, I could say she did a very much better job in building the flats opposite the Georgian houses than she did in trying to keep a hold on what is essentially a passing period of time to which, sentimentally and emotionally speaking, one may wish to cling. Even in Dublin, we must make way for progress.

I want to refer to what I regard as an unfair attack on Dublin Corporation by the previous speaker. He is well aware of the difficulties and the events which have helped to bring about the unfortunate housing situation which has confronted us in the past year or so. It became particularly marked in the past 12 months when houses began to collapse in this city. The reasons are well known and have been stressed already in this House. It all goes back to the time when offers of accommodation by the Corporation to a family unit of three persons were refused. Then there was a mounting vacancy rate, which rose to an average of 1,500 dwellings per year. On the best advice then available, the Corporation decided to ease off their housing programme. A change of Government occurred, with a resultant change in the economic sphere. A feature of the whole history of housing in this country and in other countries is that no local authority could ever anticipate needs.

It is very unreasonable for any responsible Deputy to attack unfairly the Corporation and their officials. There is a dedicated staff in the Housing Section and I deeply resent the attack on them here. The Corporation have their limitations. Speaking on this Estimate last year, I urged the Minister, in face of the housing programme, that it might be better if the whole housing position were handed over to an outside agency. Having regard to recent developments, I am glad the Minister took the initiative in inviting representatives of the Corporation to his office to discuss the housing problem.

I understand that at that conference it was made clear that the Corporation's programme is such that they could not handle the problem of accelerating it without some outside help. The provision of another 3,000 dwellings within a reasonably short time would help to overcome the crisis at the moment. I understand that the Corporation made it clear that they were not organised to do that and that they made it clear that they were mainly devoted to pursuing their programme which envisages the erection of an additional 5,000 to 7,000 houses within the next few years. What are urgently needed to meet the present situation are 3,000 dwellings. I am glad the Minister took that step and that good progress has been made towards the solution of the Dublin housing problem.

There are difficulties facing the Corporation such as the protracted nature of compulsory acquisition proceedings. It takes roughly two years to acquire any stretch of street or property in Dublin. By the time plans are passed through the various Departments, including the Department of Local Government, and building contracts are placed, it is about five years before a planned scheme can be completed. I am sure the public are aware of such difficulties.

No Corporation have done so much for housing as have Dublin Corporation. I estimate that practically half the city's population have been accommodated with houses and flats and through the SDA loans schemes which the Corporation operate. The last figures I obtained reveal that something like 50,000 families were housed directly by the Corporation in the past 25 years and surely that is a practical achievement.

I should not like to let the occasion pass without referring to other difficulties that face the Corporation. Take, for instance, economic progress with the resultant return of many families from Britain. Numerous families have returned here within the past four or five years. They were attracted by the employment opportunities which were not previously available.

Reference was made to families in Griffith Barracks. Like everybody else I am very disappointed that people have had to seek temporary accommodation there. However, no families who were displaced from unsafe houses had to seek accommodation in Griffith Barracks. Those concerned were mostly families who had returned from Britain and were staying with their relatives until conditions became so difficult that they left. Most of these people went into Griffith Barracks. It is to the credit of the Corporation welfare officers that they endeavoured to find alternative accommodation for them.

Within recent months, after negotiations with a property firm in this city, a scheme has been evolved whereby at least six or eight families who were accommodated are now purchasing their homes. It is most unfair that the position has been misrepresented here and it is unfair to the staffs of the Corporation who have been grappling with this difficult human problem to the best of their ability.

It is quite clear, in relation to housing, that the fundamental weakness in our legislation is that it has never provided for the people who are not eligible for local authority housing and who have not the resources to avail of the loan schemes under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts. I look forward to the time, not so far away, when the Minister will be able to introduce a scheme to cope with the difficulties which these people have to face. We are all anxious to solve the problem of the young persons who have not the resources to embark on a private house purchase scheme.

In relation to the traffic situation here in Dublin, since the introduction of the one-way streets, the problem as far as pedestrians are concerned, has been aggravated. I ask the Minister to give his immediate attention to ensure that particularly where streets are being supervised by Garda pointsmen, their hours should be extended or some alternative arrangement made to ensure safe crossings for pedestrians in busy streets. There is a strong case for continuous service by pointsmen in the centre of the city after six o'clock. I understand their turn of duty terminates about 6.30 or 7 p.m. and traffic has to fend for itself after that hour. Particularly since the one-way streets were introduced, it is a common experience to find that motorists travel at 50 or even 60 m.p.h. around College Green, D'Olier Street and other streets in the city, They have also contributed to the traffic hazards at Townsend Street and College Street. I ask the Minister to give this matter his attention, in consultation with the Minister for Justice.

The problem of local rates is becoming very serious for certain classes of ratepayers who have not the advantage of being cushioned against rising costs. I am glad the Minister has devoted his attention to that problem as is shown by the setting up of the interdepartmental Committee. I hope some system will be introduced which will afford some relief to the class of citizens I have in mind.

I was disappointed with the Minister's statement introducing his Estimate. There is a great demand for houses at present in this city. All the previous speakers have spoken about it. Deputy Timmons, of course, gave us a great piece of defeatism. I have always advocated that members of local authorities should have more power and discretion. I think it was people like the previous speaker who brought about the managerial system. I was stunned when I heard him say that it should be left to an outside agency to build houses in Dublin. I do not believe that members of Dublin Corporation are of as bad a calibre as to say: "We are not able to do it. Bring in any kind of outside agency."

Housing is in an unfortunate position and neither the Minister nor anybody else has admitted that the cause of this position is the way in which costings went up in the past five or six years. Some local authorities got housing tenders and held their hands. The tenders were very high and they were afraid to face the cost. Some tenders were sent to the Department and were not approved, as was the case in my own county. The tenders put in at that time for housebuilding appeared to be very high, but in the light of the past 12 months, they are not high.

I was still more disappointed with the Minister's statement when I did not hear him say that he would be prepared to increase the income limit for grants. Anybody with an income of £1,040 is disqualified from getting a local authority grant if they build a new house under the Small Dwellings Acts. With the rise of 12½ per cent many young people in good jobs will not now qualify. We find that in Waterford young technicians working in the factories and having no homes are forced to live in stuffy flats and pay high rents. We do not seem to be able to help them and now it seems they will not qualify for grants. I suggest to the Minister that it would be reasonable to raise that limit.

He has raised the figure for loans from £2,000 to £2,250. That is not enough because in the past year, with the coming of the 40-hour week, the turnover tax and the 12½ per cent increase in pay, the cost of housing has soared. It will only make architects skimp houses if they try to get them within that price. I have been coming here year after year speaking about housing and appealing to Minister after Minister in regard to it. I suggest that some of the public moneys and grants sent down the country— and also given in Dublin—for various public works should be used to develop housing sites. If it was only a matter of putting in roads, or doing some of the excavation, putting in drainage, perhaps, or digging out foundations, it would help. It would take the cost of that work off the houses that would eventually be built there. Instead moneys are given in the shape of unemployment grants to the various local authorities and they must make up their minds to spend that money no matter what happens. I have seen, in my own city and elsewhere, the most unnecessary works undertaken, footpaths dug up and put down again. We should all examine our conscience about this. That money could be spent for the development of housing schemes.

What now happens when a local authority goes to build a housing scheme is that they have to put in roads, footpaths, drainage and so on and all that goes on to the price of the house. I am persistent in this and I again ask the Minister to consider my suggestion because I feel it is well worth considering. I am sure the officers in his Department have the same headache as have the officers and members of local authorities. They have been putting their heads together for the past few years to see if they could build a reasonably good house and at the same time keep costs down—there is no such thing as reducing them because they are going up like a head of steam.

I wish to refer to the delay on the part of the Department in sanctioning schemes submitted by local authorities. Local authority engineers are appointed by the Local Appointments Commissioners. They live in the area. In conjunction with the county or city manager and the local council, they draw up site plans which are submitted to the Department. It takes a long time for the site plans to come back. It may be suggested that a footpath is too wide or some other fault may be found and there may be a wrangle about the matter lasting for months. All this may happen in what is called the building season. When the site plan is returned, the plan of the houses, including lay-out, is submitted and no one knows how long it will take for it to come back.

There must be a new policy or a new idea about this. All houses built by local authorities are built to the Department's standards; the walls must be a certain thickness, floorboards and rafters must conform to certain specifications, and so on. The local authorities adhere to those standards. There should not be delay in sanctioning the plans. With respect to the officials, the majority of them have never been in the town, city or village where the houses are to be built. It is next to impossible to get them to come down and see the site fairly quickly. A great deal of the delay in building houses is caused by the Department in holding up sanction for plans and specifications.

If a local authority submits plans and specifications and site plan, the Department know that they are to Departmental standards. I would suggest that if the Department do not reply within a month, the local authority should be allowed to invite tenders. Otherwise, it will be impossible to make up the backlog in regard to the provision of houses.

Deputy Dr. Browne suggested that small houses for elderly persons should be built in the centres of housing schemes. I agree. The Waterford local authority built houses for newly weds, which the Department would call substandard houses. To call them substandard is to condemn them for all time. It would suggest that they were shacks. On the contrary, they were a nice type of small bungalow, having a small hall, a nice living room, perhaps two bedrooms, a kitchenette and a small bathroom. The scheme has been successful. People went into these houses 12 or 14 years ago and if they had families and the houses became too small for them they were able to move out to other council houses and other newly weds went into them. The demand for these houses was very great. There was a ballot held. An enormous crowd attended at the city hall and one child drew the numbers, according to which the houses were allocated, and everyone was satisfied. The sad part is that we did not build enough of these houses.

I would suggest that when building a scheme of houses comprising three bedrooms, livingroom, diningroom, kitchen and bathroom—which would be a standard house—we should also build these smaller houses because the rents would be smaller, they would suit newly weds and they could be so designed that additions could be made to them at any time.

I should like the Minister to say when the Town Planning Bill will come into operation. I must commend the Minister on it. It is a very good Bill and the sooner it comes into operation the better.

I am a member of a local authority which do not believe, as Deputy Timmons believes, that we need an outside agency to do our business. We want to do our own business. We always resented anybody trying to tell us what our business was. I do hope that more powers will be given to local authorities in regard to housing. The ideal thing would be that plans and specifications submitted to the council by the manager, the borough surveyor or county engineer as the case might be and agreed to by the council, should be final and that it should be necessary only to notify the Department that such houses were being built to the Department's standards and that advertisements would be published in the near future inviting tenders and if the Department were interested they could send down a man to see the position. The sooner such a policy is adopted the better because the system of submitting plans for departmental sanction and their reference back to the council and resubmission to the Department and further reference back is a cause of much delay.

The principal brake on housing in the past four or five years was the cost of building. The cost is still rising. The Minister should consider increasing housing grants and raising the income levels to qualify for the purchase of a house under the Small Dwellings (Acquisition) Acts.

I come now to the question of roads. Four or five years ago, I told the Minister that if his colleague, the Minister for Transport and Power, tore up a certain railway line, the Minister eventually would have to allocate very large sums to my constituency under the heading of "railway road grant". The Minister pooh-poohed that idea but he told me, in answer to a question last week that he has allotted £52,000 already, and that is not enough. The work being carried out on the Tramore road to try to make up for the loss of the railway is not half finished yet. That is a frightful waste of public money. It is all due to the Minister for Transport and Power. Then he tosses it back to the Minister for Local Government to try to get him out of the difficulty by altering the bridges so that the double-decker buses could travel on the road. He should not have brushed this matter aside as easily as he did. He should have informed the Deputies from the constituency. In fact, they came up here and told the House what was going to happen.

The Road Fund has always been a mystery to me—how the allotments are made and why my county gets so little in comparison with other counties and in comparison with what they pay in road tax. This year there is an increased grant for the main roads but a reduction for the county roads. We are getting a tourist grant of only £5,000, in spite of the fact that we have a Gaeltacht in Waterford and in spite of the fact that other counties get as much as £55,000. I would again draw the Minister's attention to that.

In the near future, the Minister will be faced with a tremendous task to provide parking places in Dublin city. The centre of the city is being built up in such a way that it will bring thousands more people into it. I do not know whether the people who will work in these new office blocks will be flown in by helicopter in the future, but for the present they will come by car and bus. I am sure many of them will be able to afford their own cars; and when these are added to the number of cars in the city at present, it will be impossible to move in the centre of the city and traffic will grind to a standstill. I do not know whether the Minister will be forced to build six-tier car parks such as they have in other countries. The cost of that would be enormous. It should not be put on the Dublin ratepayers, who are contributing about £2 million to the Road Fund and are getting very little out of it. But I shall leave that to the Dublin Deputies.

The same applies to other cities and towns. It is becoming impossible to get through reasonably small towns because cars are parked on both sides of the street. They have nowhere else to go. The local authorities do not seem to be doing anything about it, because they are afraid it will put up the rates. The Minister should make generous grants from the Road Fund available to them for the provision of parking places. As the Minister said, the Road Fund is a buoyant fund. It goes up every year. We have had an increase of one-seventh in the number of cars on the road. If this problem is not dealt with immediately, there will be chaos in the whole country.

The Minister has been carrying out a very commendable crusade to prevent the slaughter on the roads, but he is not getting from the ordinary citizen the co-operation he should. This is not a matter of a Fianna Fáil Minister asking people to do something—it is a national crusade. I suggested to the Minister last year that he join with the Minister for Education and the Minister for Justice. The latter is responsible for the administration of the law. The Hierarchy have made an appeal. However, there will have to be a greater and more sustained appeal. We are fortunate that more have not been killed because of the stupid carelessness of many drivers and the brashness of many pedestrians—pedestrians who do not give a damn, who walk across the road as if there were no traffic there at all.

The other day in the street where my office is situated cars were passing up and down at a reasonable speed. A young man on one side of the street called his child, aged three or four, on the opposite side. The child dashed across the street. But for the fact that the driver stuck his car to the ground, that child would have been killed. The courtesy of the road came into this. The driver was knocked into a cocked hat because the man who was really at fault "read" him. Those are the people the Minister must get at. He will have to take his crusade further. Special films will have to be made, and I would suggest that he have these special flashes on television. I saw some of them in England. They were presented between programmes and showed with little models how somebody was doing the wrong thing.

The Minister should consult with his colleague, the Minister for Justice, in the matter of people who drive cars under the influence of drink. We all have had the experience of going to hotels and bars and seeing people not able to walk get into cars and drive away. The next day we probably read in the paper of the terrible accident that occurred. We deplore the number of men who lost their lives in the national struggle between 1916 and 1922; but I am sure that during the past six years, more were killed on the roads, and we do not bother at all. The only one who seems to bother is the Minister for Local Government, and he is like the Lone Star Ranger. I have often opposed the Minister in this House, but I am with him all the way on this and I am sure every other Deputy and member of a local authority is with him also. I would urge the Minister to keep up this appeal in every possible way—by speeches, advertising, flashes on television, and appealing to the people to co-operate with him. It is not enough to send the gardaí around the schools to lecture the children on road safety. That is a good thing, but it is not enough. We must reach the parents too and try to make them traffic conscious.

With regard to vehicles, some time ago I asked the Minister a question about the length of vehicles plying on our roads. He told me it was 30 feet up to last November; it is now 36 feet. I regard that extension as ill-advised; 30 feet is quite long enough. There are monsters plying on our roads now. I think they are longer than 36 feet. Coming up to Dublin there is always a kind of procession when one passes Naas and one finds that it is caused by one of these monsters, pouring out black fumes, and holding up all the traffic. One cannot pass until one gets to the new autobahn.

The Minister should consider putting a limit on the weight carried. Local authorities are spending a great deal of their own money and a great deal of the Minister's money on the roads. These monsters come along. They pay a great deal of road tax. The drivers will tell you that they pay £200 road tax, but the point is that they do £2,000 worth of damage in five minutes. It is quite easy to see that some of these lorries are overloaded. Coming into Dublin, if one of these lorries is standing at the lights, when the green comes on it starts to shudder and stagger in its effort to get started. I saw one loaded with concrete blocks. Only the Lord knows what weight was on it. There should be a limit to the laden weight of these lorries because they are costing local authorities and the Minister's own Department too much money.

I want to refer now to something that has puzzled me and I am sure it will also puzzle the Minister. On 12th May, Deputy Corish asked the Minister if he would state in respect of each local authority the number of houses built by the authority in each of the past five years. The particulars were supplied in a tabular statement. I was, of course, interested in my own child and I picked out the Waterford figure. The figure given by the Minister at column 1215 of the Official Report for the financial year 1959-60, borough of Waterford, 348; 1960-61, 31; 1961-62, 43; 1962-63, 44; 1963-64, 50. I was a little staggered when I saw the figure of 348. I am a member of the Waterford Corporation and I looked up my records for the purpose of checking.

I discovered that in 1959-60 we built 16 artisans' dwellings in the City of Waterford; we reconstructed six and gave grants for reconstruction of houses and flats in the case of 159. Yet, there is a figure here of 326 reconstruction schemes, 1952 to 1957, returned this year by instruction of the Department of Local Government. Now I am sure that is not at all what Deputy Corish asked the Minister, even though Deputy Corish merely mentioned the number of houses built, reconstructed and everything else. Just to make the matter clear, I asked the Minister today the number of new houses built in Waterford city by the local authority in each year since 1958 and the number of dwellings that applied for reconstruction grants over the same period. From 1959 to 1960 we get this figure of 348 and the number of dwellings for which reconstruction grants were paid, 155. I would respectfully point out to the Minister that these figures are incorrect. If the figure of 348 is appearing in the total number of houses it should be taken out. I suggest to the Minister he should ask his officials to check these figures.

The Minister said he was disappointed by the response on the part of local authorities in relation to swimming pools. I have asked my colleagues and members of other local authorities for their views on this. They are afraid because of the rate situation. With the steep rise in rates over the past five or six years no manager is able to face his council with an estimate for what it would cost to raise a loan against the Minister's grant. I regard the scheme as a good one. In Waterford, of course, we are very near the sea and we have very fine bathing places in the estuary. At the same time, it would be a great thing if we had a swimming pool in Waterford city.

I mentioned the Town Planning Act and I should be glad if the Minister would tell us when it is proposed to implement the provisions of that Act. I regard it as a very good measure and the sooner it comes into operation the better. I should particularly like to see in operation the section dealing with derelict sites and the zoning of buildings where there might be danger of some of them falling into decay. There are many other sections I should like to see implemented but these are the two I have particularly in mind at the moment.

Finally, it is the costings that are putting the brake on local authorities in the matter of building houses and I would appeal to the Minister again to increase the grants and raise the income qualification to enable people to qualify under the SDA.

I have been a member of Dublin County Council for almost the past nine years. I have watched and experienced at close range the rapid growth and expansion in the work and responsibilities of local authorities generally and in the ever-broadening field covered by the Department of Local Government. We have reached the point, as Deputy Dr. Browne said this evening, where it it hard to realise how the competence of one man could extend to cover adequately the entire field that comes under the Department of Local Government.

I listened both last year and this year to the Minister's statement introducing his Estimate. I listened attentively both years. Last year he devoted the major portion of his statement to the housing crisis. Again this year the major portion of his statement is devoted to the continuing housing crisis. That is as it should be, but we have had this housing crisis with us now not only this year and last year but for a number of years. We have also, in my opinion, a main roads crisis. We have an acute traffic problem in the city of Dublin. In my view all those things build up to considerable evidence that the present system of local government has failed, has fallen down, and that the whole structure of local government needs reconsideration.

With the exception of the managerial system introduced some years ago there has been very little change in the whole structure of local goverment since about 1898. What I am about to say does not refer to any one manager; it applies generally. The manager is now considered to be virtually a bureaucratic dictator, and the excessive caution we have always associated with the Civil Service has extended to the officials and management of the local authorities. We have an enormous housing problem and, in my view, nothing that could not have been expected has happened to create the problem. We have had no war; we have had no earthquake; we have had nothing unusual.

We do not see this type of crisis arising in the ESB, for instance, where there is an evergrowing demand. Local government problems have become far too complex and too widespread. The Dublin region can be described as the problem region of the country. It may not be the only one, but it is the one with which I am familiar. I do not think any one manager is capable of covering all the activities and responsibilities he is expected to look after. We have the farcical position in the Dublin region that we have a city and county manager who is responsible for all the services in the entire region. We have a man allocated to the county who also covers the borough of Dún Laoghaire. That is a real farce, and I do not think any serious thought is being given to the situation.

We should have departments dealing with the various needs, and where the needs are as enormous as they are in the Dublin region we should have a housing authority in each area in the city and county. The housing authority should have total responsibility for housing and there should be a system of co-ordination. In the country as a whole we should also have a main roads authority. The money is provided for the building of main roads directly from the Department of Local Government. Maintenance is a dual responsibility. The job that has to be done on the main roads leading from Dublin to the counties is colossal. It means that if the professional staff of the county council are to do the job in the time expected, every other part of their normal responsibility must be neglected. That is a most unfair strain to put suddenly on the normal resources of the county council.

The Minister may say this is something that should have been done gradually over the years. I agree; it is. The Department of Local Government cannot shirk some of the responsibility for the present position because it has not been attended to in time. It should have been seriously considered long ago. This job was not done. Why not? For half the time since I became a member of the county council we have been working with temporary people, and considering the enormous responsibility that is carried by the county engineer in Dublin he is not half rewarded. We have reached the stage where we have no fewer than three people retired on sick leave. They were not able to carry on because the strain was far too much.

It is true to say that County Dublin has been amazingly backward and that we are now starting to provide services that should have been provided 50, 30 or 20 years ago. I am sure there are 25,000 acres in County Dublin where there are no services and where the Minister is refusing to allow us to build roads because we cannot provide the services. I think we should build houses even if we have not got everything for them. The Minister had to come in here today and face the embarrassment of telling us that he expects fewer houses will be completed in the city of Dublin in the present year than last year. I think that is because too much is expected, the responsibilities are all varied, and there is no concerted effort to deal with the problem.

Why are we not getting on more rapidly? Why are we not succeeding more rapidly in fulfilling the housing requirements? What are we short of? I think we are mainly short of skilled and professional men, and there is no priority in building today. We have a crisis but we are not regarding it as a crisis. I believe that all building that that can be described as luxury building should be stopped immediately, until the housing needs of the people are met. Every day in the week people come to me in the area I represent which fringes on parts of the city. Some people are being displaced from their homes after 25 years in them, simply because the Corporation require to clear a site. They have no hope of getting a house and their families are being broken up and placed with different relatives. These people are really heartbroken. As I say, I do not think the problem is getting the serious consideration it deserves. The Minister has been very active but the fundamentals are wrong.

I do not think that system building is the answer. System building may just stop a gap, and any sort of house is better than no house, but as far as I know, system building has been well tried on the continent and has been discontinued in most countries. I should like to see the minimum of system building in this country.

There are other reasons why we have not got on more rapidly with housing. The main thing I have experienced is excessive caution on the part of the manager and the local authority. We were all anxious to build houses and to repair them but we were all regarded as being a bit reckless, even though we had to face the people providing most of the money and had to answer to them. Experience has shown that we were right, that the bureaucratic approach was wrong and we are now left in the position we are in and of which we are all, rightly, thoroughly ashamed. We are not able to build houses and not able to build where we want to because we have not got the services. I know as far as the Minister is concerned pressure has been exerted to have these services extended.

I want now to talk about SDA houses. There is something wrong in County Dublin at least with the system of valuing houses for SDA purposes. The system used bears no relationship whatever to the cost of building the house. It is not valued by a quantity surveyor or by anyone able to estimate the cost of production. Some sort of sale value is put on it and the system has arrived at the point at which many people who deserve to be accommodated through local authority loans are debarred because the county council will not advance sufficient money to come within, in some cases, £600 or £700 of the value of the house, that is, the cost of the house to them, and they have to try to get accommodation from building societies or other sources. Some move should be made to bring in a realistic valuation. I am not anxious to increase the cost of a house to the purchaser because I am aware of the enormous load a purchaser assumes and there are many people who are only barely able to meet the commitments they have to meet. The cost of that type of house especially should be kept to a minimum and there should be some way of assessing reasonably the cost of producing these houses and in that way enabling people to be accommodated through the local authority.

There is another aspect of housing which is causing us considerable trouble and which will always present a problem from now on, that is, the acquisition of sites. Land everywhere has become more valuable. It is now almost impossible to get a site by agreement and the whole process of compulsory purchase is so slow that one does not know when a housing site problem will be overcome. If the Minister can do anything to expedite the securing of sites by compulsory purchase, it is one of the things which would greatly help the provision of houses in the Dublin area.

Deputy Lynch referred to the sending of plans to the Department, their return, the sending up of these plans again, and so on. That has caused endless delays over the years and I cannot see any sense in it. Either one authority or the other should be responsible. If it is the Department, let them provide a variety of plans and say: "If you build to any one of these plans, there is automatic sanction as far as we are concerned." Otherwise, the entire responsibility should be thrown over to the qualified personnel in a local authority and they should be told: "Get on with the job, we have sufficient confidence in you. We will inspect the situation from time to time and if we see serious flaws, we will go into the reasons for them." A lot of talent, effort and time is being wasted through this sort of duplication. It is completely unnecessary and leads nowhere.

The Minister referred to the desirability of providing serviced sites. Several problems are involved here that I am aware of because I have been extremely anxious to see these sites being provided. There are many people in the middle income group anxious to provide their own house but they cannot purchase an individual site. The landowner will not sell an individual site and the trouble is they have no powers of compulsory purchase. The local authority has that power, but in order to put a compulsory purchase order on a site, the local authority has to prove a need for it. In my view, this is something which cannot be estimated. Only commonsense tells people where there is an obvious need in an area. A greater demand would be created immediately the site is provided and services laid on because all sorts of people come along seeking accommodation but you cannot go into court and prove that in advance. As matters stand, that must be done, and it creates a serious difficulty. Whenever a member of a local authority makes a proposal, he is asked how many people are prepared to give evidence that they want sites to build houses in the area. The member might have two or three, or perhaps four people, but that is a small number when an area of ten acres should be purchased and serviced.

Reference has been made to town planning and a lot of work has gone into the legislation which has passed through both Houses of the Oireachtas. We in County Dublin have been anxiously waiting for the day to be fixed on which this legislation will become operative. We are anxious for a number of reasons. In one way, we should be anxious to see it postponed because I am afraid it is going to mean considerable expense for local authorities generally, and particularly in the Dublin region, when demands come in for compensation of one sort or another.

The main reasons we are anxious to see it becoming operative are the difficulties we have in regard to unfinished estates all over the county and the lack of services available to people who have built their houses, at no expense to anybody but themselves, and who have got the minimum services in the area simply because the developer will not finish the job. We want the power as soon as it is possible to give it to us to make these developers finish their job. All developers do not come into that category but unfortunately we have quite a few of them in County Dublin.

The Minister has a very big difficulty here because it would be completely wrong to bring in town planning legislation for the whole country. As a matter of fact, there is no need at the present time for bringing in town planning legislation for most of the country. There is only quite a small area to which it would be beneficial because the qualified staff are not there. I am greatly afraid that by the time the Department collect the necessary inspectors, we in County Dublin and, I am sure, in the city of Dublin, will be left very short of trained staff. I know the number of these people that are there and I am fearful of what will happen. There is a very small number of people in the country who are experienced in the difficulties of town planning and it will have to be introduced very cautiously indeed.

I have not dealt with the subject of roads very comprehensively but merely in passing. I have stated it is my belief we should have a main road authority responsible not only for the building of main roads but for their maintenance as well. All the cost of both building and maintenance should be borne from the Department of Local Government. It is impossible to estimate the value of main roads in any part of the country but I know that in County Dublin we carry the traffic of the country. They all start from Dublin to go down the country. They are all using the main arteries in and out of Dublin. Therefore, it is quite unreasonable to expect the ratepayers of County Dublin to contribute half the cost of maintenance over the years when in fact the normal roads we have are ample for the people of the area.

I have also stated that by concentrating on these main roads—and that must go on for a number of years— there will be serious neglect of the county roads. It is extremely difficult to get small but very important jobs done throughout the county because of this claim on the personnel of the engineers section. The Minister told us last year and again this year that he was having a comprehensive traffic survey made with a view to a reclassification of roads. I wish he would do that area by area, too, and again bring in this area very soon because most of our roads are main roads but they are treated as county roads.

As regards sanitary services and water supplies, we appear to be getting on with that portion of our work as rapidly as possible and I am glad to be able to compliment the Minister on the attention he has paid to the provision of the North Dublin regional water supply. That is something which has been going on for many years and it is long overdue.

The Minister promised to review the situation in relation to speed limits at the end of last year and I do not think we have had the result of that review yet. There are a few areas in County Dublin in respect of which I have been recommending for some time the imposition of speed limits. It is not something that is personal to me. A number of the residents of these areas have approached me, as they have approached other public representatives, to have a speed limit imposed, and it is a serious responsibility for the Minister to take upon himself to refuse that request. There seems to be no good reason why the discretion there could not be left at local level.

There are areas like Castleknock where serious accidents have taken place and where there is no speed limit; in fact, it is nearly indicated as a speed track because there are speed limits on either side of it. The same applies to Malahide and Portmarnock. Speed limits should be subject to review at local level by the local garda sergeant and some official in the local authority. The matter should not be referred back to the Minister at all.

Some time ago, legisation was introduced in relation to the blowing of hooters or horns after a certain hour at night. This has led to the position where now everybody is nearly afraid to blow a horn. This is the cause of many more accidents than we imagine. The impression is generally abroad that if one blows a horn, one is being less than polite to the people on the road. I am not recommending that people should drive on the horn—anything but that. The blowing of a horn is very necessary where there is any sort of blind turn or where one car passes out and there is another following.

The accident rate on the road is simply appalling. No more propaganda could have been used than the Minister has used during the past year or so in an effort to diminish the slaughter on the roads. Unfortunately not a weekend passes that we have not up to six deaths on the roads. It is a shocking thing, and my own belief is that in nine cases out of ten, these accidents are due to excessive speed. I suppose we are all guilty from time to time of doing things on the road we should not do, but unless there is a clear road in front for a long distance, anybody who drives at a speed of 60 or 70 miles an hour is taking, not only his own life in his hands, but the lives of many other people as well.

Another matter to which I wish to refer is the urgency of dealing effectively with the problem of quarries which the Minister mentioned in passing today. Only in the past week, there has been another death in a quarry in County Dublin. This is a serious problem and one which is met in quite a few parts of the country. I should like the Minister to indicate an effective means of dealing with this problem. We have come up against a situation in Dublin which is unbelievable. The owners of these quarries were not prepared to hand them over to have them made safe at the expense of the local authority.

The local authorities should take far more interest and should be encouraged to take far more interest in the provision of industrial sites. The Minister talked about the provision of serviced sites for houses. It is equally important that serviced sites should be provided for industry, sites with an ample water supply, an ample supply of electric current and all the other services required in industry. In many areas there are considerable pockets of unemployment. We lost many industries, not only to those areas, but to the country as a whole, by not being able to provide would-be industrialists quickly with the accommodation they require for their industries whenever they are anxious to do so.

The Department's contribution to most of the services has increased in the present year but, as Deputy T. Lynch has said, costs have so rocketed that I do not think we will get any additional services from those increases. I notice there has been a decrease in the grant to the Road Fund. That has helped to provide increases in certain other departments.

The Minister has referred to swimming pools. I am interested in swimming pools, but, quite frankly, the position is such in County Dublin at the present time that I am ashamed to talk about swimming pools. I am afraid to talk about them because if we advocate the considerable expenditure required for the provision of even one swimming pool, I should expect to be attacked on the way home by the number of people who have no houses. That is my main trouble. I think it is deplorable to talk about these refinements until we have met the essential needs of the people.

Hear, hear.

It is easy to distract attention from these things by harping on the necessity for things such as swimming pools and other such amenities. I would not include recreation centres in that because I think it extremely important that adequate recreational facilities be provided in all the built-up areas. The best way for children to start going wrong is by not having a place in which to play games. There is a serious lack in the development which has taken place in many areas in county Dublin in that that provision has not been made. I doubt if the local authority has power to reserve a central area in any community for churches, schools and health centres, but the sooner they get it, the better. We have this haphazard situation all round the city of Dublin where it is impossible to get a site for a school, church, health centre, library and for all the essential things the community would normally be entitled to expect.

In some areas as well, we may have a working class reserve and there is no facility whatever for industry. These are the defects I see needing rectification and until there is more specialisation in the whole structure of local government, so that one department will be totally responsible for certain services, I do not think we will get the job done. We will always have it done in a haphazard fashion.

We have an unusual position of pressure here in the whole of the county Dublin region but it has not been brought about by any fundamental increase in population. In fact, we have emigration all the time. It has been brought about mainly because the people of the country are flocking into the cities and towns and we have this population increase in this particular part of the country and are just not ready to meet it.

I notice my colleague does not like to be in the swim; he does not like swimming pools. On the question of swimming pools, I must say the Minister has been very generous in his encouragement of such amenities in every area. I represent two local authorities and I know that in places I visit, especially in the Ballyfermot area, the people are very disappointed that the Dublin Corporation are not giving effect to the wishes of the Minister. That is a very big population centre and, as the Deputy rightly said, we are not catering for big housing estates to the extent we should. We have a major problem of trying to build houses for our people and, in Dublin, we have the problem of all the buildings that have to be knocked down in the centre of Dublin because they are in very bad condition.

That is a huge problem for the Dublin Corporation and their officials and for the Minister and his officials. I must say he has taken an active interest in trying to ease the position that has arisen in the past 12 months. Notwithstanding that, over 1,800 families have been displaced since last June from dangerous buildings. That is a huge problem for any local authority to grapple with. We have at the moment about 1,700 houses under construction and we hope when this new system building starts, it will ease the situation. From the reply to a question I put down in the Dublin Corporation last night, I discovered there are 242 families to whom we cannot offer accommodation at all.

This is a matter on which we have had discussions with the Minister and officials of his Department and with members of the Corporation, the City Manager and his officials. Everything possible has been done by the Minister and he has stood up to his responsibility in this matter. I admit that system building is the only way of getting over these problems. In the near future, we hope to have hundreds of families changed from dangerous buildings in the city. We cannot take chances and leave persons in any building which the architect declares to be dangerous. There are ordinary families who would have been housed normally if this had not happened last June. We have seen husbands and wives with three or four children, as well as newly-weds, living as sub-tenants.

The Minister and Corporation are facing up to this problem. There is plenty of land in County Dublin for building purposes. In this connection I must stress that I am against multistorey flats. I have represented big housing areas in Dublin during the past 20 years and during that time have seen innumerable families transferred from the slums to the suburbs, to Ballyfermot, Finglas, Donnycarney and Coolock. At first, many of those families had no respect for anything. Many of them caused all the damage they could but within five or six years the transformation occurred. They became house proud; they saw the nice curtains the Jones family had in their window, the nice job the Murphy family had made of their garden.

In that way we have succeeded in making our suburban housing schemes highly civilised and attractive. I doubt if we could instil the same public spirit in communities settled into multistorey flats. Good schools and the example of a number of good families were responsible for the higher level of civilisation brought to suburban housing schemes. I am against flats of more than five storeys also because of the hardship to mothers and to elderly people of climbing stairs because of the absence of lifts. Trying to climb those stairs with a baby in a pram is hard work.

I have begun to feel that the system building of houses is the only real system by which we can solve our housing problem in good time. The system we are following at the moment has fallen down completely. As I have told both Dublin Corporation and Dublin County Council, we should encourage people who would normally be housed by the local authority to build their own homes. We should give them sites at reasonable rents. Members of local authorities could give a good example, too, in the matter of ground rents.

I am completely against ground rents because there have been too many scandals caused by them. I know a man who is paying £50 a year ground rent and who has not got a yard to his house. I tried to negotiate with his landlord to give him a yard for his small business. The landlord would let him have 20 feet by 15 feet for £500 plus £28 a year rent. I realise a Commission is sitting on this matter but we must face up to the scandalous behaviour of some of these landlords. We must expose the racket completely. Every tenant should get an opportunity of purchasing his ground rent. It is a vile racket which should not be allowed to continue. Even if it meant an increase in rates, I should still favour the abolition of the ground rent system. I hope there will be immediate action against unscrupulous landlords when this Commission issues its findings.

During the period of industrial revival under Fianna Fáil since 1957, a problem has been created through increasing numbers in employment becoming sub-tenants in council cottages in County Dublin. The present Minister's predecessor in 1952 refused, after consultation with local authorities and their managers, to give the two-thirds subsidy to sub-tenants seeking rehousing out of council cottages. The excuse then was that the Minister wanted to clear out the slums. Now, times have changed and while the Minister says there is still overcrowding, I hope he will agree to give the two-thirds subsidy in an effort to rehouse these sub-tenants. At the moment a scheme is completed in Lucan and we hope to build 35 more houses there.

I was very pleased with the North Dublin regional water scheme which I have been advocating for 20 years. The delay in that scheme had held up development in the North Dublin area. Its completion now will be responsible for enhancing the value of land and will give people an opportunity of selling land for industrial and housing purposes. I welcome that.

I was very pleased that the Minister and his officials helped to expedite that scheme. The first scheme will cost approximately £1½ million. I suppose the sewerage and other services will cost much more. It is a good investment for the nation. We are hoping that the south-west Dublin drainage scheme will commence very shortly, too. I understand that the scheme has been recommended to the Minister's Department and is under active consideration. I trust it will be sanctioned in the very near future.

I am very pleased with the large number of households in County Dublin which have availed of the regional water and sewerage schemes. These grants have brought about a great improvement and the people appreciate it.

Deputy Clinton referred to the acquisition of sites in County Dublin. The local authority is up against the speculative builder. We cannot expect a man to sell us his land when he can get twice as much from a speculative builder. Few local authorities face that problem. In Dublin city, land could have been purchased a few years ago for £200 an acre. On the borders of the city and county of North Dublin ten acres of land were sold recently for £10,000. Land situated six or seven miles from Dublin city, especially where there are services, is fetching as high as £1,000 and £2,000 an acre. A few years ago, a person might get the same land for £200 an acre. When local authorities build houses on such expensive land, they will will require a higher subsidy. Times are changing. I suppose the Dublin County Council will have a conference with the Minister and his Department similar to that which Dublin Corporation had in connection with the building of houses in Dublin city. It is a very acute problem for us in County Dublin. We require about 1,000 houses.

You ought to be ashamed to say it.

The manager and the members of the county council are doing their best but no matter where we go, there is a builder there before us and he is offering a much higher price for the sites than Dublin County Council can offer.

I welcome the higher grants for the building of roads leaving our city. The Minister and his officials should do everything possible to expedite the acquisition of land to enable us to make wider roads leaving the city of Dublin. We have some prairie tracks. Much of this work should have been done 20 years ago. On a Sunday afternoon, it would be better to stay at home than to take the north road out of Dublin because the cars are bumper to bumper. One part of that main road is only 17½ feet wide. Since I became a member of the local authority in 1960, I have spoken of our prairie tracks leaving the city. Just consider the position if a heavy lorry is in front of you and you are in a hurry. Now that money is available for the building of main roads, we should at least have a three-line traffic-way on roads leaving the city.

What about the county roads?

I shall come to the county roads afterwards. I am dealing now with the main roads leaving the city. We have failed miserably to cope with this problem. The amount of extra traffic coming on the roads week after week is overwhelming and we have traffic jams here and there.

We have heard a lot of hypocrisy about cutting down on the Bray road. It was done by people who unfortunately were not progressive. At that time, Dublin County Council was controlled by members of the Fine Gael Party. With their shortsighted policy, as usual, they refused to go ahead with the Bray road. Just try to go to Bray on a fine Sunday and you will soon see what the position is. We have now decided to go ahead with this work. Land acquisition is the problem. I look upon it as a national problem. Amending legislation is necessary to deal drastically with it. If anything should happen in the city of Dublin and our people had to leave the city, our roads would not be able to cope with the situation. That is a disgrace to everybody concerned.

The day has gone when we must respect everybody's rights when the national interest is involved. I am a democrat and I respect the rights of everybody but, in the interest of the nation, land acquisition will have to be speeded up. We should give people who own land a reasonable market value for it. I do not believe in taking it from them unreasonably but they should not be allowed to stand in the way of progress and especially of national well-being and the interest of the country as a whole.

Other countries have made an allout effort. We have plans for a road on the north side going as far as Blake's Cross and we hope to start it in a few years. But, with the best will in the world, it will be three years before all the land is acquired. Just consider the position of people trying to go to the airport on the north side on a fine Sunday when the roads are blocked with traffic. The same traffic congestion exists on the Bray road. We have eased the position considerably with the new road to Rathcoole. We are making a very good job of the road to Naas.

Kildare County Council have shown us the way. They made better roads than we did. I am sure everybody will agree that we should have at least a three-line traffic-way on roads leaving the metropolis. In Britain, I have travelled on many roads including the M1, M2, and M6. I am not talking about these high-speed motor roads which cost about £1 million a mile to build, taking in bridges and all, and which one cannot leave except every 25 miles or so. I have driven on one of them at 110 miles per hour.

God bless us, the Deputy was flying.

I thought the man who was driving was going to become airborne every moment.

But look at the weight he was carrying.

I had made my will beforehand. The green belt is one of the leprechauns we have in County Dublin. It was first created when one would imagine we were never going to go further, that Dublin was going to stand still. It is the greatest farce we have to deal with today at a time when Dublin is bursting at the seams with houses and factories. Whether we like it or not, the green belt idea must go. We must move out. I believe in leaving proper recreational parks and that is sufficient green belt so far as I am concerned. We need those parks in big housing estates particularly and we should have more of them. We hope to get rid of the green belt in the near future under the new Town Planning Act.

In regard to traffic we have a number of puritans talking of a 30-mile limit. In several cases, before you come within half a mile of the town, you have a 30 mile limit. I do not think that is good. I was at a meeting in Portmarnock last night after the Corporation meeting. There is no speed limit there and I believe there should be a 30 m.p.h. limit for Portmarnock. We have eliminated many accidents in Dublin city since the 30 m.p.h. speed limit was introduced, but there is another type of hazard with which I do not know how it is possible to deal, that is, the fellow who takes out a car and decides to drive 20 miles in two hours. He gets in front of a line of cars on a narrow road doing about 15 m.p.h. That man is a greater danger than the man doing 60 m.p.h. He is responsible for more accidents because he is hesitant; he admires the bushes along the road and it is difficult to deal with him, especially when you must get traffic out of and into the city. If you do sound the horn behind him, he drops back another five miles an hour but you cannot pass. He keeps the middle of the road except where there is a white line which he cannot legally cross.

Seeing that the price of land and property has risen to such an extent in Dublin city and county, I would advise the Minister, if possible, to have another look at the SDA loans with a view to improving them. It is a good thing the Minister has money to deal with these matters. We must be grateful for that on this side of the House and we can talk with confidence because the money is available for everything now. The only thing we want is the machinery to deal with the problems we are up against in regard to expediting the building of houses in Dublin, providing roads and water schemes and other services that will enrich the nation and especially Dublin and its suburbs. There are quite a number of other problems that I shall leave until another day.

I expected, when the Minister introduced his Estimate, that we would find in his speech an indication that he appreciated the rising costs in which local authorities and private builders are involved in the erection of houses but there is no indication in his speech that there is any appreciation of the constant and serious increases in the cost of materials and employment. We cannot hope for even a continuation, therefore, of the present level of housebuilding, which, as everybody realises, is entirely inadequate. Early in his statement, the Minister indicated that the contribution by way of subsidy of local authority housing loans is increased by £80,000. That sum spread over all the local authorities is completely inadequate, in view of the costs involved, as many local authority members who are members of the House know too well.

There is an increase of £5,000 in grants for the clearance of derelict sites and works of public amenity. If that were £5,000 per local authority, one would hardly say it was sufficient, but as it is, it is surely insufficient for those purposes. Before leaving the subject of amenity grants, I wonder could some special consideration be given to the manner in which amenity works are inspected. Various schemes are brought before the Department and in some cases eventually conceded. In many cases they are dropped completely by the initiating local organisation. There is very poor liaison between whoever is responsible in the Department for the inspection of these schemes and the organisations that give their time and interest to developing such schemes for their own community.

I have tried in a couple of cases to bring the parties closer together so that they would understand each other. I cannot understand why the Department's officers should visit a locality without contacting some responsible person involved in the preparation of the scheme. It is not good enough to conduct a long distance communication by letter with those concerned. It would certainly shorten the deliberations that go on before action is taken if some person or persons were named as promoters and were in a position to speak for those involved, as in the case of rural improvement schemes. Usually, it is somebody competent; it could be the local assistant county engineer or someone able to talk the same language as the expert official conducting those visitations. I see no reason why their visits to a locality should be kept secret. They do not come in the same capacity as do the too-frequent visitors we have had over the past 12 months, the gentlemen from the Valuation Office who were not seen but who were definitely heard from.

It is right that in discussing the Estimate for the Department of Local Government, we should apply ourselves to the housing situation. My colleague, Deputy Clinton, remarked that this was not getting the attention it deserved. I would have been prompted to refer strongly to this, were it not for Deputy Burke breaking the sound barrier because at that time there was complete lack of interest on the part of the Government Party in the discussion on local government and housing. A change has been effected and some Deputies are evincing interest in the Estimate for Local Government but for hours here this afternoon there was not a single member on the Government benches apart from the Minister.

This is a matter which is above politics. A few weeks ago there was an allegation made by Deputy Dolan, which I regard as despicable. He said that members of the Opposition Party in local authorities were carrying out campaigns which were deliberately preventing schemes coming to fruition and which would be of benefit to the people. Any Deputy in the Government Party who is active, as many of them are, on a local authority will appreciate that when we get down to the housing, sanitary and the various other meetings of the local authority politics are left outside. Speaking for my own local authority, which is one of the largest in Ireland, I may say that we are a happy group and do not behave in the vindictive and outrageous fashion of some councils. I refer in particular to the incident in Roscommon over the week-end, which would give very strong support to Deputy Dolan's assertion that such a state of affairs can exist in a local authority.

At any rate, we are happy in the arrangements we have relative to the operation of our local authority. We are not so happy when it comes to dealing with the Minister's Department. We are frustrated. Constituents have to approach us on numerous occasions to get action on the part of the Department with regard to communications that they have sent to the Department and to which they have not got a reply. I do not think it should be necessary that Deputies should be loaded every week they aproach this House with large numbers of complaints that have snowballed over the past year or two relative to delay in receiving communications from the Department by individuals who have applied for housing or reconstruction grants. There may be good logical reasons why the points they raise cannot be met but these matters should be explained to them.

It is on record that there has been a very large increase in the number of civil servants and if the Minister is short of staff he could draw off from some other Department the personnel he requires because it has become very necessary that he should in the coming months remove some measure of the complaints regarding inexcusable delay.

Local authorities repeatedly have to require officials to get on the phone to find out what is happening with regard to proposals that have been submitted for sanction and months elapse before we get the green light to proceed with the erection of houses. Meanwhile, of course, we in the local authorities are subjected to every kind of allegation of remissness on our part. Our officials are held up to public ridicule because the houses are not being built. Yet every step is taken in good time by the local authority and its officials. In relation to compulsory purchase orders, particularly, we run into delay caused by the Department. In some instances these delays are due to the grouping of applications for compulsory purchase orders, some of which applications could be returned within a very short time as they involve no problems of title and where, in fact, the applicants are building houses on their own land.

I do not know who is responsible, whether it is the local authority office or the Department but if the Minister and his officials find that that is occurring they should address a communication to the local authorities advising them so that we would go ahead with those cases where people have been waiting for years to get a house built on land in connection with which there is no problem in relation to title. These cases should be submitted individually or in groups to the Minister and not tied up with the numerous cases which involve lengthy deliberation with regard to title.

It is very difficult for members of local authorities to explain to people who have been waiting a long time for a house and who have to live in dreadful conditions that the local authority cannot get the necessary approval to proceed with the erection of a house because of the fact that they are tied up with the clearance of compulsory purchase orders and other legalities.

The Minister referred to indications of an increase in population but, of course, he was incorrect when he stated that it was the first time in generations that a rise in population was effected in this country. That is not true. We can only hope that the remainder of the Minister's speech is closer to the truth than that statement. We do not dispute the assertion that there is at the moment an increase in population but we do certainly contest the statement that it is the first time in generations, or even that it is the first time in 15 years or in a decade. It is not the first time in a decade in which an increase was recorded but if it is recorded and if the Government are conscious of it and if in their Second Programme for Economic Expansion they envisage a drop in the rural population of some 60,000, are we to infer that in the opinion of the Government this further population drift from the land will mean a drift out of the country if the Government are not preparing to build houses where industrial employment will be available?

If we are to accept the high hopes so often expressed by members of the Government, particularly by the Taoiseach, one would expect some planning would be made at this moment for the provision of building sites and adequate housing close to wherever the employment opportunities are to exist. One would expect some clear indication and some preparation for it if there is not to be a resumption of the high level of emigration that obtained up to the time when we had very few more to send from these parts of the country.

The housing situation is aggravated by what is in our society a healthy sign, that is, that people are marrying at a younger age. There is also a social change which may not be quite as healthy, that is, that families are not now as favourably disposed to accommodating the young couple in the family home for a period of some few years. From the moment they marry they require separate housing from their parents and the remainder of the family. It would be a very happy situation if they could be provided with housing. There are many instances where people have to defer marriage because they have no guarantee that they can be provided with even an apartment. Nobody should get the impression that the housing shortage is confined to the cities of Dublin, Cork, Limerick, Waterford. In Bandon, for instance, a group of houses will be open shortly but they will be inadequate to cope with the number of applicants, and in our view eligible applicants, for houses.

In deciding the most deserving tenants for local authority houses the housing officers have to omit families living in very bad conditions because there are other people who are even worse off and who have been waiting a longer time for houses. Therefore, I would exhort the Minister to give a clearer indication of his appreciation of the housing shortage.

There are interminable delays in regard to the payment of grants and builders are inconvenienced by the fact that in most instances the people who give them contracts have to await payment of the grant before they can pay the contractors. We have in this city and other areas a lot of status building. This type of building is occupying the attention of builders and the time of skilled workmen and making it more difficult for people to secure such contractors and workmen for the erection of normal dwellings. It is no good indication of the economy unless these prestige buildings are accompanied by sufficient activity in the erection of normal houses for our people.

I intended to inquire regarding the proposal under section 6 of the Housing Act to provide houses for aged people. I note that the Minister states 300 units have been provided. I was not aware that that number had been created. It was an inclusion in the Bill at that time which I welcomed and which I felt could add considerably to the well-being of our people. In many areas we have aged people occupying large houses. Too often do we read of tragedies, where such people who are seriously handicapped sustain serious injuries, if not fatal injuries, because of having to move about in such large establishments and perhaps being victims of fire. Even for their own safety, one would have hoped that such people could have been encouraged to depart from that type of residence and to secure accommodation in the units proposed to be erected under that section. In that way we would release for transformation into flats or for the occupation of larger families the houses at present occupied by aged people.

I note that the amount of SDA loans has been increased from £2,000 to £2,250. Has there been any increase in the income limit?

I had hoped there would be. When the Minister and the Government agreed to the ninth round of wages, I am sure it was not their intention that anybody would be worse off in consequence. This was an increase intended to cushion the people concerned against the impact of higher living costs. Yet we find in the manager's orders in our local authority people who are disqualified from getting a loan because the increase they got brought their income level above the maximum permitted. In fact, I think the Cork local authority have passed a resolution to the effect that it would be well for the Minister to consider this income limit. It is also true that, while the Minister has recognised that in respect of special categories of very low income farmers, it was desirable to increase the amount of grants available for new houses, there has been no increase in reconstruction grants. I am sure the Minister is only too well aware of the increased building costs. Consequently, one would expect at least a 12 per cent increase in the loans for new houses as a general rule and also in the reconstruction grants.

In addition, would the Minister also take into account the limitation placed on local authorities in relation to supplementary housing grants? Many of the local authorities, if not all, operate on the maximum permitted. Again, we have people disqualified on the income limit because of the increase awarded them to compensate for the rising cost of living. It is too bad that such people find they are disqualified from having access to loans or supplementary grants. I would impress on the Minister the need for early action in this matter.

Over the past number of years, we find an obligation on local authorities to employ additional staff. In many cases this arises from various ministerial orders, and has thrown much additional work on local authorities. If there is any case where this can be eased, I would ask the Minister to examine it. May I give an example? It may not involve a large volume of work, but I regard it as an extremely cumbersome method of operation. It is in relation to the control of public address systems throughout the country. As it is now operated under the Minister's direction, any group—perhaps the local GAA club—must make application to the local authority for permission to use a public address system in a given area. This entails more clerical work on the part of the local authority. The same club, if it wanted to hold a collection, could walk into the local garda station and get a permit. Who better would know the advisability of giving a permit to any local club or the circumstances in which the equipment would be used than the local gardaí? It would be much easier for those who use such equipment—be it for commercial activities or be it one of the many local voluntary organisations who depend on public address systems to put across their point— to secure a permit at the local garda station rather than be obliged to make application to the office of the local authority. May I add that in Cork county this office is some 60 or 70 miles from the centres involved. We have added to our council staff work of a clerical character which could well be dispensed with and which could be more efficiently and sensibly transacted by the local garda. After all, if they are competent to deal with public collections, surely they are equally competent to deal with the use of public address systems.

There has been a very healthy movement in the country for some years past, sponsored by Bord Fáilte, in relation to cleaning up our towns and villages. The increasing participation in the tidy towns competition year ofter year is an extremely healthy sign. I know this is not a matter within the purview of the Minister but it is one in which very useful work can be accomplished by closer liaison between local engineers and the local tidy towns committees. We happen to have a very happy liaison in Cork with our local engineer. I cite this as an example of how extremely valuable information can be exchanged by those banding themselves together for a very laudable purpose, namely, the clearing of derelict sites and the improving of the appearance of towns and villages. It would be well, I think, if a directive issued to county managers asking them to encourage county engineers to act in collaboration with the local committees to further the good work performed by these bodies all over the country.

I want to appeal now on behalf of business interests in small towns. With the development of private transport and greater frequency in public transport, plus the development of the cut price shop and the multiple store, business people are facing very rough times. They have no access to grants such as are available to other categories. There are no grants available to them for improving their premises or making the handling of their goods more hygienic. They are facing increased competition. I maintain these people should receive some assistance. They get no remission in rates. They can make no claim for a reduction in their rates. Yet, when they improve their premises, their valuation increases almost immediately, and so do their rates. They derive very little return from the rates they pay. Many of them suffered a diminution in income. They should be assisted in their present difficulties and in their efforts to meet their payments locally and nationally. If they want to improve their premises, far from any obstacle being put in their way, they should be given every inducement and encouragement.

In recent years in Cork we have taken over a number of private roadways. Formerly private residents on these roadways were looking to local authorities to bring their roads up to a reasonable standard. Under the Special Employment Schemes grants were made available to bring these roadways up to a reasonable standard and the local authority were then asked to take over the roads and maintain them. We have done that. Formerly not a single mile was taken over because the local authority could not afford even to make a start on the very high mileage of such roadways in the county. Practically every month now there is a list of roadways brought up to a reasonable standard. These are passed, on further inspection by our own engineers, and then taken over for maintenance. This is an excellent idea.

Hitherto, when people contributed to the improvement of these roadways under the Rural Improvements Schemes they were not able to maintain them afterwards and the roads very often fell into a worse condition than their original one. The grants given were lost. People are now encouraged to improve these roadways in the knowledge that they will be taken over and maintained by the local authority. I do not know if there is that liaison in other local authority areas. It is a system I certainly recommend. We are very happy about it and there appears to be no difficulty.

We have in Cork this year, as we had in the latter part of last year, a problem in relation to the growing volume of traffic of the roads. This has been accentuated by the action of the Minister for Transport and Power in removing every mile of railway west of Cork city. The effect of that on the main road from Skibbereen to Cork has been very bad. Not alone has the cost of maintaining the roads increased but there is growing danger to those who travel on them. It should not be necessary to hold this post mortem at this stage but the House will recall that those who were interested in this matter—members of the county council, the Deputies representing the area concerned, the bishops responsible for the dioceses involved — were treated with utter contempt by the Minister responsible for the closure.

We are now required to find the increased cost of maintaining the roads so seriously affected by the transference of traffic from rail to road. It was a simple matter for the Minister for Transport and Power to rid himself of some of his liabilities by transferring them on to the backs of the ratepayers. The amount of compensation made available for capital works on the roads affected by this increased traffic does not assist in any way to alleviate the increased charges ratepayers as a whole are called upon to pay in order to maintain these roads in as good condition at least as they were before they were required to carry this additional burden.

At our meeting of the southern committee in the housing and sanitary section of the Cork County Council within the past few days, we had a visit from a representative of the Electricity Supply Board in relation to the improved lighting in the suburbs of Cork. It is of interest to note that a sum of £79,000 was required for works of a capital nature carried out by the Electricity Supply Board in the replacement of equipment and the provision of an alternative lighting system. We made some inquiries of the official and it transpired that not alone was this improved circuit servicing public lighting but it was also servicing a very large number of private houses. In the normal course, if improved lighting is being made available to private houses, the ESB are obliged to bear the whole cost and, in conjunction with those responsible, to face up to the financing of this improved electric circuit.

It is a bit much for a semi-state body to regard local authorities as fair game. It is not clear what local authority will be faced with that sum and it was only by investigation, inquiry, and questioning of this official that we ascertained that the local authority were being asked to bear charges for which they were not responsible. Consequently we did not completely agree at the meeting which was held a day or two ago with the scheme as presented to us. We adjourned it for further consideration. That is a matter to which the local authorities should be alive. They seem to be regarded as fair game by many people, if they can get away with it.

I should like to appeal to the Minister to restore the grants under the Local Authority (Works) Act. Such appeals have been made for a number of years and we find unanimity among all members of local authorities regarding the advisability of restoring these grants. It is only in this House that there is a divergence of opinion as to the worth of restoring them. Public property as well as private property and very useful land are affected by flooding from minor rivers and streams. It will be very many years, as I ascertained recently from the Special Employment Schemes Office, before arterial drainage will relieve that problem. There are works which are too big for the Land Project and too small for arterial drainage, which are not the responsibility of the local authorities. They are no one's pigeon. We have displaced a number of people who were formerly employed on the roads by use of machinery and the development of the use of machinery in road works. Many of those men could be usefully employed doing work under the Local Authority (Works) Act.

Deputy Burke suggested that there is now no problem about money, that it is only a matter of trying to find some way of spending all the money available to the Government. They have the income from the turnover tax and so on, very much of which is levied on the local authorities. Yet, with all the golden eggs that are being laid, according to Deputy Burke, we find the Government remain adamant regarding the advisability of restoring the grants under the Local Authority (Works) Act. I appeal to the Minister even at this late hour to hearken not only to what we say but to what his own colleagues say, and to hearken also to the unanimous decision of the General Council of County Councils on the matter.

Having listened to the Minister, or having read his speech, the House must agree that it can be described as a very comprehensive speech and one in which he attempted so far as he could, and in the time he had, to embrace practically all aspects of local government. For that he is to be congratulated and also for the fact that he made a factual speech. In this speech, and in the speeches made by various Ministers for Local Government on the introduction of their Estimates, that has been a very important contribution.

There is one thing that disturbs me. The factual information contained in the Minister's speech, and in the speeches of various Ministers for Local Government over the years, has not been brought home sufficiently to the local authorities. I have always believed that there is too wide a gap between the local authorities and the Custom House presided over by the Minister. There always seems to be, if not a bitter conflict, at least a conflict of opinion, and there are many misunderstandings between the local authorities — and particularly the elected representatives on the local authorities—and the Minister in regard to his wishes, his desires, his policy, or the policy of the Government.

Frankly, I believe something should be done about that because if it is not done within a reasonable time, there is a danger of a breakdown in all local government throughout the country. Much time is wasted, and as I have said, there are many misunderstandings between the Local Government Department in the Custom House and the local authorities spread throughout the whole country. For that reason the Minister should consider the possibility of being able to convey much more information on policy, on the regulations he makes from time to time and on his opinion as to how things should be done, say, by the establishment of regional conferences.

His speech, as I say, can be described as factual. I do not think there could be any objection—certainly not from me in any case—if it were to be sent to every member of the local authorities. It may be said that they could buy the Official Report or read the report in the newspapers. The Minister's speech—or the speech of any Minister for that matter—of necessity gets a limited amount of space in the newspapers. The Minister has expressed views on housing; he has given information; he has expressed views on roads, fire brigades, libraries, and practically every aspect of local government. I think it is important that, apart from members of the Dáil, people who have made sacrifices and served on local authorities should also have that information available to them because it is factual. I would not be in favour of giving the same treatment to the Minister's reply because in the ordinary course of events ministerial replies on Estimates tend to be political.

I am serious when I say that unless there is a narrowing of the gap between the local authorities and the Custom House, there may be a great loss of faith on the part of the people in the system of local government that has operated since the Managerial Act. Members of the local authorities feel somewhat frustrated since the operation of the Managerial Act. In many cases the frustration is exaggerated because they are not au fait with many of the pronouncements the Minister has made, or they are not au fait with the general policy of the man who happens to be Minister for Local Government and presides in the Custom House.

There appears to be a general speeding up in the approval given to housing proposals from the urban districts —and I stress the urban districts. In recent years, we had cause to complain about the slowness of the house building programme. That has been speeded up somewhat in recent times but I am afraid there is still no appreciation of the tremendous problem the lack of houses involves for the people and certainly there is not an appreciation of the suffering and hardship caused to the individual. It is grand for a Minister to say: "We have x thousand more houses built this year than last year and y thousand more than two or three years ago". The Minister was a member of a local authority and he is now a member of the House for his constituency in East Donegal and I am sure he interviews the dozens of people we all interview from day to day, from week to week and throughout the year. He must appreciate how pathetic it is for any of these people who have been looking for houses for years coming along to him or to other Deputies or to local representatives in an effort to get houses.

I remember when, in 1947, a survey was carried out it was disclosed that approximately 100,000 new houses were needed. I think the figure was 40,000 for the cities and 60,000 for the rural areas. It seems from the figures which the Minister has given that we have not improved very much on that situation in 16 years. Granted that houses have gone into disuse, that many have been demolished, that the standard of living has greatly improved over the years and that demands are greater, but we cannot be proud of our housing programme, especially when we have regard to those figures which the Minister has mentioned. I wonder when we will have reached the stage when a newly-married couple, or a couple who intend getting married in three or six months' time, will be able to say: "We have a house". The usual pattern as far as the average couple are concerned is that they are condemned to live in one room, or in a two or three-roomed flat, or with their in-laws, for a great number of years. We boast about our industrial expansion and we are told that factories are being built here and there, that we are improving our shops and so on, but still there is practically the same housing problem, as far as numbers are concerned, as 16 years ago. As I said last year also, surely this warrants the declaration of a housing emergency.

There have been complaints from many local authorities that the tradesmen are not available, that they have left the country or are engaged in some other type of building, such as the reconstruction of shops or the building of offices and factories. In my opinion, that is the fault of the Custom House and of the local authorities because they never attempted to give any guarantee of security or continuity of employment to those in the building trade and the records of various urban authorities show that in some years they were satisfied to build 16 or 20 houses in provincial towns where the need was 300 or 400 houses. I honestly believe that if some years ago we had given a guarantee to those engaged in the building trade that they would have continuity and security of employment for so many years as it would take to build all these houses, we would not have the same problem today.

These building trade operatives were never content, and could not be expected to be content, with being employed by a local authority for six months and then laid off for six months until another plan was approved. Building has gone on in fits and starts to the great annoyance and frustration of those engaged in the trade. Perhaps even at this late hour an effort could be made by the Minister and the local authorities to organise a system whereby building workers in greater numbers could be put on to the building of houses in order to break the back of this tremendous problem which we have had for so long and which it seems we are to have for many years to come.

Whilst I have said that there seems to be some speeding up in the approval of houses in urban districts, it is not what it should be. From my experience and from my knowledge of the rest of the country, the position is anything but good in the rural areas. I cannot understand why it takes the Minister such a long time to approve such matters as purchase of sites, tenders and so on, I do not know what new regulation or new policy there is in the Department now. It seemed to me some years ago that the county councils had some authority in the purchasing of sites for single cottages but now practically every Deputy from a rural area has cases on his hands in which there is up to six or 12 months' delay, waiting for sanction from the Department for the purchase of a site, approval of the plan and sanction for the tender.

I can give the Minister current cases which are very annoying not alone to the local authority but more so to those who need the cottages so badly. It takes so long now to get the necessary approvals and sanctions that in many cases when they finally come through, the applicant has emigrated. There have actually been cases where the men or groups who tendered to build the cottages have emigrated. As far as the building of cottages in the rural areas is concerned, the local authority should have much more autonomy and should be given a general permission to buy the site and not have to wait so long for the approval of the plan. They should also be able to decide themselves whether or not the tender is a reasonable one.

As far as the Department is concerned, in recent times—and only in recent times—there seems to be a new policy with regard to this matter. It is a matter on which the Minister has been questioned several times by members of this Party, that is, the letting of houses to those at present living in council or corporation cottages. The Minister assured me that he would issue a circular setting out the circumstances in which the maximum subsidy would be paid in re-housing sub-tenants from county council houses. The Minister assured me on a second occasion that he had done that. Somebody is trying to fool me because I am told it has not been done, or if it has, the circular is so vague that the local authorities are still pursuing a rigid policy in refusing to make first lettings to families who are sub-tenants in council houses.

I do not think we should go through all this argument again because the Minister had a full appreciation of the position. We instanced the example of a boy or girl reared in a local authority house and who on marrying, lives with the parents. In most cases these people are debarred from getting the tenancy of a local authority house with the maximum subsidy applied and, of course, reflected in the rent. Many pleas were made to the Minister on that type of case and he said he would correct the position by way of a circular. I should like to know whether or not that circular was issued because if it was the local authorities are disregarding it.

The Minister must know it is very difficult for these couples to get anything but a local authority house, especially in provincial towns. There may be speculative builders here in the city of Dublin, and there may be, as there have been in the past, many private houses that can be availed of by newly-married couples but in the provincial towns there is no such thing and there never has been. Therefore, the natural thing for such couples to do is to seek a corporation or urban council house. In places such as Wexford, Kilkenny, Nenagh, Thurles or any of these towns, most of the people come from families who have occupied local authority houses for years but when they get married, they just cannot get a local authority house. If the Minister sent down a circular, then the local authorities are not acting on it, but my opinion is— I may be wrong—that this circular did not issue at all. The Minister ought now to devise some formula or make some regulation whereby cases such as I have outlined will be dealt with and so that these young married couples will have some guarantee that they will be considered in any local authority housing scheme, especially in the urban districts.

Deputy Jones made reference to something to which I want to refer, that is, the question of house purchase. For the pre-1932 and pre-war houses, the purchase schemes seem to be working very satisfactorily but the post-war house being purchased now will not have the subsidy applied to it or will not have the subsidy considered in the terms arranged for the purchase of the house. This loss of subsidy makes house purchase for that type of house, the pre-war house, very unattractive. A plea has been made by Deputy Jones and others that people should be encouraged to own their own house but there is lack of encouragement in the purchase system for post-war houses. The Minister should give some incentive to these people who occupy post-war houses to purchase their houses in the manner in which the pre-1932 and the pre-war tenants could purchase their houses.

Where is the change in that?

The subsidy is not applied in the purchase of the post-war type of house.

I do not agree with the Deputy.

That is my opinion but I do not pretend to be as knowledgeable about local government as the Deputy.

The Deputy should be.

I am not as long in the tooth. I do not know what the basic policy of the Minister is with regard to the differential or graded rent system whereby the tenant pays rent according to his means. There does not seem to have been established by the Minister any pilot scheme or any example from which the local authorities could draw. The various local authorities have their own different schemes for differential or graded rents. A model scheme should be suggested by the Minister so that all housing authority schemes will be somewhat similar. The Minister should be prepared to suggest or lay down some percentage of a man's income that should be paid in rent, whether or not it should include rates, what allowance there might be for children in the family. All these factors should be considered by the Minister in the formulation of a scheme, not necessarily a scheme to be imposed on the local authority but a model, so that differential and graded rent systems all over the country will have some uniformity. The Minister should also consider the type of house to which the graded rent system should be applied. It is unfair to apply the same differential or graded rent system to a new house and to a house constructed 30 or 40 years ago.

There is one small matter to which I referred last year and to which I wish to refer again, that is, damage to or defacement of footpaths all over the country, especially in the cities and towns, due to the work—necessary, I suppose—carried out by such bodies as the ESB, local gas companies and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. When work is carried out by any of these three institutions, they resurface the footpaths but there are left long, ugly scars for a hundred yards or maybe half a mile. While the footpaths may be basically sound, this should be regarded as defacement of the footpaths. I do not suppose we can complain as long as the footpath is restored in some way by the application of stones and mortar, and so on.

However, the urban roads improvement grant instituted by the Minister a few years ago has proved very beneficial in the urban districts and I should like to suggest that out of that road improvement grant the Minister should allow local authorities to provide concrete slabs. Concrete slabs on the footpath would ensure that the ESB, the gas companies and the Department of Posts and Telegraphs would have their work made easier and that there would be no defacement. The slabs could be taken up, the work done and the slabs put back again. I have seen that done in a town in my own constituency. The underground work to be carried out was facilitated and there was no defacement whatsoever of the footpath. Perhaps the Minister would consider advising local authorities that they could, out of their urban roads improvement grant, provide concrete slabs for the footpaths rather than have them concreted in the ordinary way.

The rural water supply schemes have been discussed very freely and forcefully in the last few debates on Local Government. The Minister should be congratulated on the stand he took in regard to the establishment of these rural water supply schemes. I am not talking about other constituencies but I can say in regard to my own constituency that the establishment of these schemes is pretty well advanced. In the districts in which they have been established they are beneficial to the people indeed. The furore which was started has died down because people have come to appreciate that these were long-felt wants which have now been filled.

The Minister dealt with the establishment of swimming pools and amenity schemes. Again, let me speak from experience and say that a proposal from the town of Wexford met with nothing but the utmost co-operation in the Department of Local Government. There was 100 per cent co-operation from the Minister and his officials and the scheme proposed for the town of Wexford is very well advanced indeed. Therefore, the Minister does not talk with his tongue in his cheek, and did not do so when he made his opening speech and said he would encourage any proposals for amenity schemes, especially in respect of the provision of swimming pools.

There has been a lot of talk recently about the financial assistance available for sewerage and water schemes. The provision of water schemes, especially regional water schemes, seems to be proceeding apace in many parts of the country. I do not think the same can be said about sewerage. I believe the same type of grant is available for sewerage as for water schemes. There is one particular problem to which I think the Minister and the local authorities ought to devote their attention, that is, the matter of sewerage schemes in the areas adjacent to urban districts.

In the urban districts, and in many of the provincial towns especially, there has been a development in the building of detached houses and a serious situation could arise there because the only type of sewerage is the septic tank. One, two or three of these in an area of two or three acres may be all right but many towns are being ringed by these septic tanks and I am informed that these may have a very bad effect from the health point of view. I think, therefore, there ought to be more collaboration between the county councils, on the one hand, and the urban local authorities on the other for the laying of new sewerage, or for the connection or extension of a sewerage scheme to these houses. The only requirement by the Department of Local Government is that there should be a proper and adequate septic tank. However, there has been so much building in areas on the border, or contiguous to, the urban district that septic tanks might become a problem.

The Minister mentioned that he was considering the possibility of new techniques in the building of houses. He referred to that in page four of his speech and said he had consultations with some people. He did not make clear the type of people with whom he had consultations. I assume he has consulted the trade union movement, or at least the building trade group. I cannot say here and now what their attitude would be, but if there is a new technique for the building of more houses at a faster rate, I think the Minister should seek the goodwill, if it is forthcoming, of these building operatives who are engaged in that trade. In his reply, perhaps the Minister would say whether or not the trade union movement as a whole, or the building trade group, have been consulted in the matter of new techniques in the building of houses.

I am glad the Minister has reprimanded, or appears to have reprimanded, the local authorities for their neglect in maintaining their own property, in this case corporation and county council houses. I do not know whether he used the word "skimpy" or not, but they are foolhardy in that they do not devote enough money for the repair of urban houses. The result is their own property is deteriorating. As the Minister said, a time will come when they will have to do something about it. They cannot afford, and will not be in a position, to demolish the houses and they will not be attracted to the idea of building new houses. Many of us know of houses built only a short time which have been allowed to fall into disrepair because of the meanness of those who pretend to represent the ratepayers.

As far as I am concerned, and as far as my Party are concerned, the investment of money in the upkeep of these houses is a good investment, and if these houses are allowed to fall into disrepair, it will be a waste of the ratepayers' money.

What do the tenants do?

I do not want to get into an argument as to what the tenants do. A clergyman suggested once that they burned a staircase because they were too lazy to go out and cut wood. The tenants of local authority houses are subject to criticism. It is not deserved in the majority of cases. There may be some bad tenants, but, as far as windows, roofs, and so on, are concerned, there is a reluctance on the part of many local authorities to make adequate provivision for the keeping of houses in proper repair. I suppose the Minister will say they are foolish because the day of reckoning will come.

I should like to bring in the question of co-operation on the tenants' side.

As far as my experience goes, the tenants co-operate well. They co-operate with the local authority to the extent that they are provided with paint to keep the windows and doors painted. I would not say a word about the tenants.

This Estimate to many of us is the most important Estimate of the year. I should like, before Deputy Corish leaves the House, to refer to the point regarding subsidy having ceased in respect of post-war houses built in rural areas.

It refers to the purchase of urban houses.

The purchase of urban houses never carried a subsidy.

They did, pre-1932.

No, nor any other time. I can assure him of that but I shall develop it later. The one thing we must look for is, having found decent employment for our people, that the worker will at least have a decent home to go to when his day's work is done. That, to my mind, is the most important aspect of local government today —decent houses for our people. That need cannot be over-emphasised. Unfortunately, in the last ten or 12 years, a system of red tape has crept into the Department. I do not know how that was managed. I tried to find out by asking a question last week, but I did not. How is it a medical officer comes into a town, carries out a survey and finds that there are 24 families in the area requiring houses and in the end we find that only 18 can be built? Six houses have been knocked out in the process by red tape.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 3rd June, 1964.
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