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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Jun 1964

Vol. 211 No. 6

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Transport and Power.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £3,414,530 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st March, 1965, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The net Estimate of £5,121,530 for 1964/65 compares with £5,219,890 for 1963/64. However, the 1963/64 provision included £1,175,000 for a grant to Córas Iompair Éireann and no provision other than a token sum of £10 appears for 1964/65. If the legislation which is at present before the Oireachtas is enacted it will be necessary to bring in a Supplementary Estimate for £2 million so that the total net Estimate for 1964/65 would be over £7 million, an increase of nearly £2 million as compared with last year. For the purpose of comparison I am assuming that the £2 million for CIE will be payable this year.

The principal increases are in the provision for CIE grant and redundancy compensation, £1,125,000, Tourism, £551,000, grants to Shannon Free Airport Development Company, £250,000. Increases in other subheads amount to £277,000 making the total increase £2,203,000. Decreases in expenditure on airports and catering service amount to £240,000, and on other subheads there is a decrease of £15,000. There is also an estimated increase of £47,000 in Appropriations in Aid. These amounts reduce the increases by £302,000, so that the net increase for 1964/65, assuming a £2 million grant for CIE, will be about £1.9 million.

I have circulated to Deputies notes on the activities of the State companies with which I am concerned and since only a few months have elapsed since the Estimates for my Department for 1963/64 were discussed in the House I propose to confine my remarks to policy matters and the more important features.

In view of the early recess of the Dáil, I have not been able to refer in detail to many aspects of Departmental administration. The general work of the Department, the planning directives and the very specific supervision over the companies for which I am responsible, together with the administrative practices in relation to the investigation of complaints are already set out in my speeches on last year's Estimates in Vol. 207, No. 4, Cols. 650-652 and Vol. 207, No. 11, Cols. 1496-1576. I would suggest that Deputies refer to these statements as it will enable a more constructive approach to the policy of the Department.

Although the total number of passengers handled at Shannon in the year ended 31st March, 1964, decreased by 9 per cent to 334,000 and the number of landings decreased by 19 per cent to 5,080, the number of terminal passengers—both embarked and disembarked—increased by 15 per cent to 188,000. It is probable that the increase in terminal traffic in 1964 will offset the drop in transit traffic, and that as from 1965, the total traffic at the airport should begin to rise again.

In fact, in the first five months, January to May inclusive, of this year while total freight of 6,750 tons is the same as last year's figure, total passenger traffic at 82,000 has shown an increase of 13 per cent over the 72,500 in the same period of 1963.

Deputies may wish to know that arrangements are in train for the celebration in September next of the Silver Jubilee of Shannon Airport operations.

Works in progress at Shannon include the erection of a new control building which will be more centrally situated in relation to the runways than the existing control tower. Accommodation will be provided in the new building for air traffic control and radio service staffs with a view to the efficient co-ordination of these services and the most economical utilisation of staff.

It is intended during the coming winter to commence the reconstruction of the concourse area which formed part of the original terminal building and is now in poor structural condition. This work will provide improved facilities for the handling of the increased number of terminal passengers who embark or disembark at Shannon. It is not possible to undertake this work during the peak traffic which occurs in the summer. In the meantime, however, work is proceeding on a preliminary part of the scheme. This includes alterations and improvements to the public catering accommodation and facilities involving the installation of a modern grill bar and cocktail bar to provide a faster meals service together with a first-class restaurant with a dance floor. The lounge area on which no major renovations have been carried out for several years is also being redecorated.

All sectors of traffic at Dublin Airport showed significant increase in the year ended 31st March, 1964. A comprehensive five year building plan continues and structures for cargo, administrative and catering and passenger reception continue to be planned and erected in due sequence.

It is expected that the flight victualling and catering service building will be started this year. The next step will be the construction of a new cargo terminal and a link building between the first and second piers already erected. The final step will be the erection of a new passenger terminal building which is becoming necessary owing to increases in passenger traffic.

During the year ended 31st March, 1964, Cork Airport had almost 98,000 passengers, an increase of 24 per cent. Freight traffic, which is as yet not very significant, showed a small drop of 3 per cent to 266 metric tons. In addition the Cork/Bristol car-ferry service carried 678 vehicles. This service will operate at an increased frequency this summer.

The increased participation by BEA on the Dublin/London, Dublin/Manchester and Dublin/Birmingham routes continues. Increased capacity will be offered by Aer Lingus on its cross-channel routes this year and frequencies will be increased on the Dublin/ Leeds, Dublin/Glasgow, Dublin/Liverpool and Dublin/Edinburgh routes as well as on the Cork/London and Cork/ Birmingham routes. The Aer Lingus vehicle-ferry services which were so successful last year will be continued this summer and increased frequencies will operate on the Dublin/Liverpool and Dublin/Cherbourg routes. The Aer Lingus services to the Continent are being maintained this year, and next year, with the introduction on these services of the BAC One-Eleven jet aircraft, it is expected that there will be a big increase in traffic on the routes.

The BEA shareholding of £95,199 in Aer Lingus has been acquired by Aer Rianta which now holds all the shares, except directors' qualifying shares, in the company. Accordingly Aer Lingus is now 100 per cent Irish-owned, the Government holding all the capital.

A new Boeing 707 aircraft has been added to the Aerlínte fleet this year, and it is expected to be in operation shortly. The aircraft, which can carry up to 178 passengers as well as a cargo load of 4 tons, represents a considerable advance over the present 720 aircraft which carry 130 passengers and 3 tons of cargo. A further Boeing 707 will be acquired in 1965. These purchases will enable Aerlínte gradually to replace its existing fleet. One of the existing Boeing planes which has lesser capacity will be sold at the end of the summer at its present book value. Another plane of the same type will be on charter to a foreign air line during the winter. These arrangements have enabled Aerlínte to utilise its fleet to the maximum extent during the summer when traffic is at its peak.

Aer Lingus as well as Aerlínte are conducting a vigorous campaign abroad to stimulate tourist traffic to Ireland. Their expenditure this year will be of the order of $1¾ million in North America and £120,000 in Britain. Aer Lingus is also expanding its student exchange plan, as there appears to be considerable traffic potential in this type of operation.

While the audit of the accounts of the air companies is still proceeding and certified accounts will not be available until mid-July it appears that the profit for the year, after providing for all charges including depreciation and interest on loan capital, will amount to approximately £350,000 for Aer Lingus — which compares with a loss for the preceding year of £120,904. In the case of Aerlínte the profit will amount to approximately £900,000 which compares with a profit of £466,000 in 1962/63.

The profit earned by Aer Lingus will have to absorb the adverse balance of £77,486 on the profit and loss account for 1962/63. The balance of approximately £272,000 together with Aerlínte's profit of £900,000 will be a useful contribution towards the companies' capital expenditure in the next few years of approximately £14 million, to which the Exchequer will contribute £2 million, the balance being found by the companies either from their own resources or by borrowing. Details of the proposed capital expenditure are given in the Notes.

Both Aer Lingus and Aerlínte have greatly increased their traffic during April and May of this year but in the case of Aerlínte the profit position may be affected by the substantial reduction in transatlantic fares. The average fare for April and May showed a reduction of 25 per cent on the corresponding months in 1963.

This year sees the coming into operation of two new Irish nonscheduled airlines: Shannon Air Limited and Aer Turas Teoranta. These will mainly operate freight charter flights. It is hoped that they will make a considerable contribution to the development of aviation in Ireland.

A sum of £410,000 is being provided for the Development Company by way of grant-in-aid in 1964/65, to meet the running expenses of the company and to provide financial assistance for the setting up of industrial, commercial and trading enterprises on an increasing scale.

A sum of £1,250,000 is being provided in the Capital Budget for 1964/ 65 to meet share capital and repayable advances, used mainly for factory building and community services, compared with £1,400,000 issued to the company in 1963/64.

Up to 31st March, 1964 the total State investment in industrial and housing development at Shannon amounted to £5.4 million. At that date there were 12 manufacturing and 8 trading concerns in operation at Shannon employing 2,109 persons.

The company's tourism promotional activities are designed to promote tourism generally and, particularly, to spread the benefits of increased tourism earnings throughout the west of Ireland where tourism forms an important part of the regional economy. The company's mediaeval tour is proving highly successful and is encouraging an increasing number of Americans travelling to and from Europe to include a stop off at Shannon in their itinerary. Work on the folk park project as an extension to the Bunratty Castle development is also proceeding satisfactorily. Both these projects were initiated in my Department.

The progress of the company in the past year, as reflected in the expansion of industry and the increase in employment to which I have referred, is very gratifying. The company is at present negotiating with several firms interested in setting up at Shannon and, with the expected development of new industries and the continued expansion of existing ones, the future of the Shannon Industrial Estate appears to be bright. It is intended that the provision of housing and community development will keep pace with the requirements of the expanding estate.

Irish Shipping Ltd. now have a dry-cargo fleet of 17 vessels totalling 146,400 tons deadweight and three tankers totalling 39,380 tons deadweight. Having regard to the privately owned tonnage available it has been decided that the current dry-cargo fleet is adequate to meet strategic requirements and that additions to the fleet will be considered when commercial considerations so justify.

The accounts of Irish Shipping Ltd. for 1963-64 have recently been presented to the House and, although the position is still far from satisfactory, the results were considerably better than in the previous year. The company had an operating surplus of £445,322 on working account for the year and after providing an amount of £1,023,845 for depreciation of the fleet and allowing for investment income, bank interest, directors' fees and auditors' fees, the net commercial loss amounted to £556,721. The improvement was due to the temporary increase in freight rates which took place at the end of 1963, although about 70 per cent of the revenue for the year was attributable to rates obtaining before the increases became effective.

The provision of £190,000 for grants for harbour improvement works covers works in progress or works expected to commence shortly. The principal current improvement schemes are those for Galway, Drogheda and Wicklow, for which grants totalling £340,000, £175,000, and £100,000 respectively have been approved. The growing importance of the ports is reflected in the country's export trade which increased from £174 million in 1962 to £196 million in 1963.

In relation to harbours, the Government's Second Programme for Economic Expansion assumes that normally all harbours should be operated as commercial undertakings and that maintenance charges and improvements required by expanding trade should be financed on a commercial basis.

Efficient cargo handling is a matter of vital interest, not only to the individual harbour authorities, whose trade will expand or decline according as shippers and consignees find the port an economic one to use or otherwise, but, it may be said, to virtually the entire industrial and commercial community. It is pleasant to be able to record that advances continue to be made in this field.

The procedure governing the documentary clearance of goods through ports is also a matter calling for inquiry and I have set up a working group to investigate the possibility of securing a freer flow of goods.

The new car ferry vessel, to operate on the Holyhead-Dún Laoghaire route, is now under construction and I am informed by British Railways that they hope to have it ready to put into service by June, 1965.

Very substantial improvements in second class accommodation will be effected on the British Railways passenger vessels this autumn. This, together with increases in the number of sailings, the additional platform at Holyhead and other improvements make a most welcome modernisation programme initiated in 1961 and continued since that year under the two able Midland Board chairmen of the British Transport Commission and ably assisted by the British Railways Irish Sea Traffic Manager.

CIE and British Railways are, through the medium of the Fishguard and Rosslare Railways and Harbours Company, jointly carrying out a comprehensive examination of the improvements necessary on the Fishguard-Rosslare services to cater for the traffic through that port and for the very substantial growth in tourist traffic— especially cars—which is foreseen. The proposed improvements include the improvement of Rosslare Harbour and the provision of road access between the mainland and Rosslare Pier which can at present be reached only by rail.

I come next to energy. The energy we used in 1963 was supplied roughly as follows: oil, 36 per cent; turf, 30 per cent; coal, 26 per cent; hydroelectric 8 per cent.

The final results of the working of the ESB in 1963/64 are not yet available in full, but I understand that they will show a surplus which will be somewhat less than the surplus —£636,000—for 1962/63. Hydro conditions during the year were a little below average and the mild weather in the last quarter of the year resulted in a slight slowing down in the growth of demand for current.

The Board's programme of generating plant construction provides for a long term increase in demand of about 9 per cent per annum. Between now and 1970, 530 megawatts, of which 420 megawatts will be oil-fired and 110 megawatts will be milled peat fired, will be added to generating capacity.

The Board is pushing ahead rapidly with the re-canvassing of rural areas in connection with the post-development rural electrification scheme.

By the time the new canvass has been completed in all areas, that is to say, within the next three years, practically 100,000 unconnected houses will have had an opportunity to benefit from the increased subsidy, at standard charges or slightly above standard charges. If all these should accept there would then be connected about 96 per cent of all rural premises.

The task of canvassing these 100,000 houses is a considerable one which must be organised and carried out on a planned basis so as to ensure its completion within the specified period and in the most economical manner. The canvassers are followed by the construction crews who have been specially organised for maximum output under the particular conditions. These are self-contained units supplied with the necessary transport and equipment. The keymen move from place to place with the crews but the unskilled workers are generally recruited locally. It is essential in the interests of cost and efficiency that these crews operate according to a carefully planned programme. Of course no matter what system was adopted it would be impossible to reach some areas before 1967, but every unconnected householder can be assured that he will be offered connection in his turn within the next three years.

The issue of £10½ million 6 per cent stock in March last brings the Board's total stock issues to £37½ million.

The probable financial result of Bord na Móna's operations for the year will be a small surplus after all charges have been met.

A fourth briquette factory to be based on the Shannonbridge-Athlone group of bogs is planned to come into operation in 1968.

Moss peat is a very successful product of Bord na Móna. Sales in 1963/64 were worth almost £300,000. A new moss peat factory is expected to come into production in County Laois about the middle of next year. Its capacity will be about 300,000 bales and it will employ about 250 workers bringing total employment in moss peat production to over 550. The cost of bog development and the erection of the factory will amount to about £450,000. About 80 per cent of moss peat production is exported.

Bord na Móna had a successful issue of £2,000,000 stock last month— their first appeal to the public. The eager response reflects the confidence of the public in the organisation. This issue exhausts the Board's borrowing powers and amending legislation will be necessary to authorise them to obtain additional capital.

Coal consumption in this country amounts to about 1.6 million tons annually. In 1963 coal represented about 26 per cent of the country's total supply of energy. For coal supplies the country is almost entirely dependent on imports which come mainly from Great Britain, the United States and Poland.

The investigation into the prospect of using the reserves of high ash content coal in the Arigna coalfield in an extension to the Arigna Station is still proceeding.

Oil, of which about 1.5 million tons is now used annually in this country, accounts for about one-third of the country's entire requirements of primary energy. Consumption has been increasing rapidly over the last five years and the indications are that by 1970 it will supply nearly one-half of requirements.

It has recently been decided that my Department should assume overall responsibility for co-ordinating matters concerning nuclear energy. Other Departments having special interest in particular aspects of nuclear energy will, of course, continue to be responsible for these aspects of the subject.

As I have mentioned previously, my Department is sponsoring a promotional drive with the object of interesting industrial firms in the very considerable savings which can be achieved by the efficient use of fuel.

43 firms were visited during 1963 and the potential savings in fuel costs which could be achieved by these firms were estimated at £138,000 annually or 20 per cent of an annual fuel bill of approximately £690,000.

I do not propose to deal with CIE in the course of this speech as I recently dealt with it very comprehensively in my Second Stage speech on the Transport Bill, 1964. Should Deputies wish to raise any particular questions concerning road or rail transport during the debate on the Estimates for my Department, I shall endeavour to deal with them when replying to the debate.

The provision for tourism this year is £2,020,000 compared with £1,469,000 last year, an increase of £551,000. This takes account of requirements under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. The provision takes the form of three grants-in-aid to Bord Fáilte Éireann—Subhead F.I. under which £1,350,000 is provided for the discharge of the Board's general functions including overseas publicity and advertising and a wide range of activities at home and abroad; Subhead F.2 which provides for a sum of £250,000 for resort development grants; and Subhead F.3 under which £420,000 is being provided for grants to assist the development of holiday accommodation.

The Second Programme for Economic Expansion aims at a doubling of tourist income over the decade 1960 to 1970 and this calls for an average annual increase of 7.2 per cent as compared with an annual 6.8 per cent during the First Programme.

In December, 1962, I asked Bord Fáilte to consider a very detailed memorandum relating to the requirements of the tourist promotional drive based on the objective of encouraging medium-priced grade traffic to this country and setting out at length the factors involved, from the provision of accommodation to the improvement of local facilities in resort areas. This enabled advanced planning to be undertaken before the very high second programme tourist growth target was set in the middle of 1963.

The programme, as devised by Bord Fáilte, was discussed and examined at great length with them. The target will be difficult to achieve because the increase in direct tourist expenditure by genuine tourists from countries other than those where expenditure is likely to expand only moderately must be very large indeed to provide a net 100 per cent increase.

The Bord Fáilte organisation has been strengthened, particularly on the marketing side, and the very best marketing methods are now being employed. Increased emphasis is being placed on particular facilities and amenities in Ireland which are likely to be attractive to special categories of visitors — angling, pleasure boating, student travel, conference business and so on—and some of these are already proving quite successful. More personal contact is being promoted through the visits of travel agents and travel writers.

The scheme for developing major resorts has gathered momentum and the grants paid by Bord Fáilte last year amounted to £180,000, or more than double the previous year. Increased assistance can now be given in respect of new accommodation—hotels, holiday camps or holiday villages— especially in the more remote tourist areas of the West not adequately supplied with accommodation for visitors. The grant schemes for the extension and improvement of existing premises are being continued with increased maxima to take account of money depreciation and with other modifications made in the light of experience.

A significant new feature is that grants are now available for guest houses which provide not less than ten guest bedrooms either before or after completion of improvement works. In view of the need for more entertainment facilities for visitors, particularly outside the urban areas, grants for this purpose have been extended in scope. Assistance is also being made available towards the provision of additional youth hostels, especially in the West, and for the improvement of existing hostels. In addition, residential schools and colleges, which can accommodate groups of visitors during the summer season, will be assisted where necessary to improve their facilities. There will be continued emphasis on the need to provide medium-priced accommodation for lower and middle-income visitors. This question is, of course, affected considerably by the capital investment required for new building and the difficulty of remunerating this capital on the basis of a short holiday season. The campaign for extending the tourist season continues and a commission is now sitting to examine how far changes in public and bank holidays can ease the position.

With the formation of the eight new regional tourism organisations, we now have the framework for a co-ordinated tourist campaign using the resources of all sections of the community. Many local authorities have shown their appreciation of this new development by increasing very substantially their contributions to tourism and I am sure that the fruits of this investment will be evident in the expansion of the tourist trade in their areas. I hope that members of this House on all sides will lend their support to the new tourism organisations and will encourage all interests in their constituencies to work together in this new co-operative endeavour. In 1965 the boards of directors will be elected on a proportional and democratic basis.

The Transport Act, 1950 (Additional Powers) Order, 1964, is being taken with the Estimate. Therefore, I should give some explanation of it. The purpose quite simply is to enable CIE to establish a subsidiary company for the handling of air freight. This is a very highly-specialised business and CIE consider it important that it should be operated by a separate company. At the present time, the volume of air freight between this country and other countries is not more than a small fraction of the volume of freight moving by land but, in terms of value, air freight is not inconsiderable. Between this country and Great Britain, for example, air freight represents about seven per cent of the value of total import and export trade.

CIE are well placed to provide a specialised transport network throughout the country for air freight. However, the main reason why they wish to establish this subsidiary is in order to qualify for recognition by the International Air Transport Association as an air freight forwarding business. To participate effectively in the air freight forwarding business, it is desirable for CIE to dissociate air freight business from general carrying business. For this reason, CIE find it necessary to establish a subsidiary company to deal with the air freight forwarding business.

There are other technical reasons. There is a difference in the character of operation. There has to be very special flexibility and very high speed air-freight transport. For that reason, I recommend that the Dáil agree to the formation of this subsidiary company.

I should add that the powers of the company will not be wider than the powers already exercised by CIE. It will be subject to official control. The memorandum and articles of association will be subject to the approval of myself and the Minister for Finance. Alterations cannot be made in this memorandum without my prior approval and the same applies to the company's borrowing powers. The procedure, in fact, is in line with that adopted when CIE formed a separate company for hotels, Ostlanna Iompair Éireann, Teoranta.

The directors will be the same as the directors of CIE, including the chairman, who will also act as chairman of the subsidiary company. Neither he nor the ordinary directors will be paid any remuneration for their services to the company. I think that gives the particulars of the reasons for establishing the subsidiary company.

The motion on the Order Paper in relation to the State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) (No. 2) Order, 1964 a copy of which in draft has been laid before the House, is also being taken. The purpose of the Order is to add Aer Lingus, Teoranta, to the Schedule to the State Guarantees Act, 1954, to enable the Minister for Finance to guarantee borrowings by the company up to a limit of £5 million. The existing legislation in regard to the guaranteeing of borrowing by the Air Companies is contained in section 75 of the Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1936, as amended by section 3 of the Air Navigation and Transport (No. 2) Act, 1959, and provides that the Minister for Finance may guarantee debentures issued by Aer Rianta up to a limit of £5 million. There is no provision for the direct guarantee by the Minister for Finance of borrowings by Aer Lingus.

It is considered that Aer Lingus should be in a position to borrow direct from commercial sources, under the guarantee of the Minister for Finance, moneys required for its own purposes and it is proposed to provide for this and other matters in legislation which I hope to introduce later in the year in relation to the air companies. As an interim measure, it is proposed to avail of the machinery of the State Guarantees Act, 1954, to provide the Minister for Finance with the necessary powers of guarantee. I would propose on the enactment of the new legislation to have Aer Lingus Teoranta deleted from the Schedule to the State Guarantees Act.

Aer Lingus has ordered four short-haul jet aircraft, for use mainly on the company's continental services, and these aircraft are due for delivery next spring. Of the total cost of about £5 million, £2 million will be provided from the Exchequer by way of equity capital. It will be necessary for Aer Lingus in the near future to borrow moneys from commercial sources towards the financing of the purchase of the short-haul jet aircraft and for other capital purposes. Borrowing from commercial sources—provided the terms are reasonable—is to be encouraged as it reduces the demands for loans from the Exchequer. The addition of the company to the Schedule to the State Guarantees Act will facilitate the proposed borrowing as it will enable the borrowings to be guaranteed by the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Finance would, of course, be prepared to give a guarantee only where he is satisfied with the terms of borrowing.

Section 7 of the State Guarantees Act, 1954, requires the Minister for Finance to lay an annual statement before each House of the Oireachtas giving details of each guarantee given by him under the Act and borrowings by Aer Lingus guaranteed by the Minister will be included in the annual statement.

The immediate capital commitments of the air companies involve an expenditure of the order of £14 million, of which the State contribution will be £2 million towards the purchase of the four BAC One-Eleven aircraft. It is expected that the companies' own resources will provide about £4 million of the total cost. The source of provision of the balance of upwards of £8 million has not yet been determined but it is expected that substantial borrowing will be required from commercial sources. It is the policy to encourage the companies to secure as high a proportion as possible of their future capital needs from outside sources and so increase the capital resources available for the State's capital programme, including the companies' own development.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

I have not been able to take in the last two documents the Minister read. I thought the agreement in this House was when speeches were made from documents, the practice was to supply copies of the documents. The Minister was good enough to supply copies of the 15-page speech he made on the Estimate. Any remarks I make will have to be circumscribed by the fact that I have not had an opportunity of considering the other two documents.

The Ministry of Transport and Power is at least moving a little bit out of the region of illusion and fairyland it has been in for many years. At the same time, there is still a tendency to state in very optimistic terms, what, realistically considered, ought to be expressed rather pessimistically. It is quite clear in regard to CIE, after all the blather there has been over many years, CIE is a social service and it is to be regarded as such.

The Minister wound up his speech on transport by claiming, as almost a discovery, it has now been proved that CIE could not pay its way. I am sure he alone, amongst politicians, must have laboured under the illusion that CIE could pay its way. I do not believe anybody in the country ever believed that. We went down to bedrock in regard to CIE. The earlier part of the document tells us that the main increase in the demands of the Ministry for this year is to be found in the £2 million subsidy which has to be paid to CIE. So far as that is an acceptance of the real condition, it is to be welcomed. It is rather a setback to find, after all the talk there was about making the service pay, the best we can do is to accept that CIE must have a subvention which, on the documents circulated in regard to the Transport Bill we have just recently been discussing, will be not less than £17 million.

In regard to Irish Shipping, I notice in the Minister's speech there are only seven lines and a bit at the foot of page 7 and possibly another 15 to 20 lines on page 8 which refer to it. This is a service which recently came before the public. There was a full page in each of the daily papers telling about the annual general meeting of Irish Shipping where there were some speeches made. First of all, the chairman brought forward the accounts and made his comments on them and there were contributions by civil servants representing two Ministers, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Transport and Power. The way in which the speech of the Minister tries to pass off the situation about Irish Shipping can be contrasted with what was said at that annual general meeting.

At the foot of page 7 the Minister says:

Irish Shipping Ltd. now have a dry cargo fleet of 17 vessels totalling 146,000 tons deadweight and three tankers totalling 39,380 tons deadweight. Having regard to the privately owned tonnage available it has been decided that the current drycargo fleet is adequate to meet strategic requirements and that additions to the fleet will be considered when commercial considerations so justify.

In a moment I shall return to what was said at the annual general meeting, which is certainly not according to the tenor of these remarks. The Minister continues in his speech:

The accounts of Irish Shipping Ltd. for 1963-64 have recently been presented to the House and, although the position is still far from satisfactory, the results were considerably better than in the previous year. The company had an operating surplus of £445,322 on Working Account for the year and after providing an amount of £1,023,845 for depreciation of the fleet and allowing for investment income, bank interest, Directors' fees and Auditors' fees, the net commercial loss amounted to £556,721. The improvement was due to the temporary increase in freight rates which took place at the end of 1963, although about 70 per cent of the revenue for the year was attributable to rates obtaining before the increases became effective.

That is the Minister's presentation of Irish Shipping. It was a better year than the year before, still far from satisfactory, but considerably better. Then we get the calculation that the loss is £556,721.

I now turn to the material given us through the daily press the other day. I quote from the Irish Independent of 23rd June, 1964. After the chairman had presented the accounts, the representative of the Minister for Finance spoke in these terms:

The company's position and prospects unfortunately gave little ground for optimism. It is true that the latest accounts show an improvement on last year, but last year was, to use your own words, Mr. Chairman, "one of the blackest in shipping history" and what happened was that a loss of about £840,000 has been reduced to a loss of about £550,000. This improvement, while welcome and commendable, is apparently only temporary as freight rates have again disimproved. While the working surplus is the highest since the Suez crisis, it must be remembered that the company's fleet and the annual charge for depreciation have increased greatly since then.

He continues:

For seven consecutive years the company has incurred a loss because of the severe depression in freight rates. The reserves accumulated in earlier years when freight rates were remunerative are nearing exhaustion. Though the annual charge for depreciation alone is now almost £1 million, the market value of the fleet is below its net book value. The prospects of economic operation in the immediate future are not encouraging.

Last year the Minister stated that "the determination of the company's future policy requires most urgent and careful consideration". The need is no less now. The Minister has asked me to express his satisfaction that the company, in its drive for efficiency, has engaged the services of management consultants, and to say he shares the hope expressed by the Minister for Transport and Power that the company will find it possible to obtain expert advice on the implications for it of present and future world conditions so that at the next Annual General Meeting, if not before, you, Mr. Chairman, will be able to report on the measures which the company is taking towards meeting its costs.

That is a realistic presentation of Irish Shipping Ltd. I want to compare it with the light-hearted way in which the Minister read his 20 or so lines about Irish Shipping. The outlook is completely black. Indeed, one wonders why this was ever embarked upon.

Another Civil Service representative present at the meeting said:

.... if we were to rely for future guidance on the experiences of recent years there would be a very gloomy prospect indeed. In the past, shipping slumps were regarded, more or less, as regular cyclical features of the industry which could be expected to work themselves out in time—otherwise why should anyone remain in the industry?

The present slump is, however, not the result of a trade depression but is due to an excess of world tonnage which is being perpetuated by a continued high level of new building.

That excess of world tonnage has been there for many years. Our contribution to that was to build more over a certain number of years.

At a later point, this second Civil Service representative said:

The Minister, who is naturally concerned about the effects on Irish Shipping Ltd. of the disastrous freight rates or recent years, directed that we should exercise ourselves in the Department in trying to pin-point factors affecting the company's competitive position, particularly by comparison with other cargo companies. I may say that this study has not thrown any great light on the scene as other cargo companies with which comparisons might be made have usually different accounting methods.

Later we have:

It is clear, however, that the shipping industry in general, which has so long been steeped in tradition, is now becoming alive, if somewhat belatedly, to the need for economic appraisal.

Would it be possible to write those words on a tablet somewhere and post it in the Minister's corridor? That might have his mind directed belatedly to the need for economic appraisal with regard to most of these insolvent concerns comprising the group over which the Minister is said to have supervision.

Again, I return to this second contribution at the general meeting of Irish Shipping Ltd.:

Irish Shipping Ltd. with losses, (after depreciation) totalling nearly £1½m. over the last two years, is clearly faced with the need for some reassessment.

Then there are congratulations that the company have decided to call in management consultants in the hope they will tell them where to direct their feet in recent years.

The contribution then continues:

No doubt the Board have also under consideration the possibility of some economic research into the implications of present and future world trading conditions for Irish Shipping Ltd. and will seek expert advice in this connection if, indeed, such advice is available.

We then get a reference to the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. We are told that that:

.... relieves the company of the responsibility of expanding the fleet beyond its present level until commercial considerations justify such action.

Is it possible people are seriously praising the so-called Second Programme because it is asked that before the fleet of Irish Shipping is increased beyond its present level, commercial considerations ought to play a part in the deliberations of the Board and the Ministry in respect of future buildings? I want to put that on record as against the Minister's 20 or 25 light-hearted lines. What was said at the annual general meeting represents reality, but the Minister has given it to us in a very light-hearted fashion.

The Minister then turns to the Electricity Supply Board. He tells us:

The final results of the working of the ESB in 1963/64 are not yet available in full, but I understand that they will show a surplus which will be somewhat less than the surplus—£636,000—for 1962/63.

I had not time to study the notes circulated earlier this month but I did at least read this. The financial results are comprised in five lines:

Total electricity revenue in 1963/64 amounted to £20,383,000 an increase of 4.8 per cent on the preceding year. Revenue from rural consumers increased by 6.7 per cent. The deficiency on rural account was £889,000. The surplus on non-rural account was £1,055,000.

I am told here that this meant that the net surplus for the year 1963/64 was £372,000. This morning the Minister said the final results were not yet available, but he understood that they showed a surplus which would be less than the surplus of £636,000 on 1962/63. If the earlier document was able to portray the financial results or sum them up by saying that the net surplus was £372,000, what has happened that the Minister this morning could only tell us that the final results are not yet available but will show a surplus somewhat less than £636,000?

Right through these notes I was looking for certain items. I could find them here and there but not completely. Surely at this stage of the Ministry—it has not an awful lot to do—we could get this. What money has been spent by the State on the airports in this country? What is the present position? Are the airports paying their way? I understand they are not. Looking through this, I find a whole series of statistics about the number of people visiting the airports. The more people the better, so long as the taxpayer has not to give any subvention to these people visiting the airports and enjoying their amenities. I want to find out what State money is involved in each of the three airports and in the Second Shannon Industrial Estate, and whether the airports are paying their way. I mean that in the commercial sense the Minister spoke about in connection with harbours—that the airports should be run in accordance with ordinary commercial practice, meeting all their charges, including interest on capital and a dividend for outside people who are subscribers.

In a simple matter such as airports, surely it should be possible to find out whether in this year or last year they paid their way, whether they met their expenses and paid the State to some degree.

During the year, a person who is now a banker in this country and who was at one time a civil servant attached to the Department of Industry and Commerce when that Department had charge of the air lines made a contribution to the Irish Banking Review, issue of December, 1963. It is a very lengthy article and well written as one would expect from the person who wrote it but I would take the summary as given by the newspapers. The Irish Times of 1st January, 1964, gives the heading: “Benefits from State-sponsored concerns belong to community”, with a subheading: “Banking chief praises companies”. The Irish Independent is more cryptic in its heading which is: “Profitability of two companies”.

I take the summary given in the Irish Times when, after identifying the person who wrote it, they put it in this form:

The State-sponsored Irish shipping and airline concerns belong to the community, which provided the capital to establish them. The idea of paying out a dividend of x per cent on the capital was utterly remote from the minds of those who conceived and established these concerns.

I think that is a fair statement of the views of this person and if the idea of paying a dividend was utterly remote from the minds of these people, I cannot understand the phrase used by the present Taoiseach when speaking to this House on the Transport Bill of 1959. There had been a good deal of discussion, particularly about Aerlínte, and the Taoiseach gave reasons why Aerlínte would continue to get the same percentage of the total number of passengers flying over the North Atlantic as they were getting at that time. He said:

First of all, the number who want to travel to Ireland will be the same percentage in future as it has been in the past, and, of that number, Aerlínte will get the same percentage as it has got up to this. Is that not a reasonably conservative basis of estimation and, on it, the experts available to the board of management of this company have calculated that they will make a substantial cash profit.

At that stage, Deputy Dillon asked: "On existing fares?" and the Taoiseach replied: "Jet aircraft" and Deputy Dillon again asked: "On existing fares?". The Taoiseach went on to say:

Let me now try to clear up any misunderstanding that may exist about the information available concerning the outcome of Aerlínte operations to date.

Then he speaks of provisional estimates given to him of revenues and expenditures for the first year, and in column 1308 of 15th July, 1959, he says:

The experience of every airline shows that it takes three years to get a new service "out of the red".

At the bottom of column 1308, he goes on to say:

The accountants and experts of the company sat down in advance to calculate what the receipts and outlay would be. Up to the present they have been shown to be extraordinarily accurate. I was at one time disposed to contest the reliability of their estimation. I have certainly withdrawn from that position. They have shown themselves to be able to forecast these matters with considerable skill and accuracy. It is these same experts who, projecting their calculations into the future upon the assumptions I have given the Dáil, have given us this expectation of a cash profit which will enable them, over some periods, to repay these initial deficits and then commence to earn profits. These calculations assume the complete writing off of the investment in the aircraft in a period of ten years. There has been reference here to the Dáil providing money and to taxpayers supporting this service. All we are asking the Dáil to do now is to change the law which says that Aer Rianta must not have more than £2 million in share capital so that, in future, Aer Rianta will be permitted to have £10 million in share capital. I have not even said, because it has not yet been decided, that that share capital will be provided by the Minister for Finance. There is certainly no suggestion of asking the taxpayer to contribute anything to the development of this service. The expectation is that the company will, as its service grows, be able to repay the deficits on the earlier years and clear these items out of their accounts, ultimately paying a dividend upon the moneys invested in it.

I want to stress that last phrase: "Ultimately paying a dividend upon the moneys invested in it." That was the Taoiseach speaking in 1959, but in December of 1963 the chairman of the National Bank says that the idea of paying out a dividend on the capital was utterly remote from the minds of those who advised the Taoiseach. If the article in the Banking Review is correct, that statement made by the Taoiseach is based on a false premise. That statement was that this undertaking would be for a few years in the red and that then it would get out of it and pay a dividend.

I should complete that quotation of the Taoiseach. He went on to say:

From the point of view of the development of the country and the benefits which this service can secure for the country as a whole, I think we should contemplate a position in which any funds that may become available to it out of its own resources will be used to develop its services rather than to remunerate the investment. I can, however, appreciate that if the Minister for Finance finds the whole, or any part, of the capital he may take a very different view.

The Taoiseach then spoke of capital, the purchase of aircraft, a rather substantial item for the training of crews, and of spares. He said quite definitely that there was going to be no borrowing from the Government or the State, that in the end the deficit would be wiped out and that there would be a dividend paid on the money invested.

I know well that the article I have quoted as written in 1963 was written when, whatever the expectations of 1959 had been, they were found to be falsified. Events had shown that it was not possible for the State to get any return on its capital investment and there was then this attempt in 1963 to read the mind of the Department of Industry and Commerce as to what they would have said if they had known what the years between would have shown up. I will leave it at that.

It was a misleading of the public. The Taoiseach may have spoken in terms of expectation but in 1963 it was definitely stated by this person who had been an official of the Department of Industry and Commerce that it was utterly remote from the minds of those who advised the Minister that there would be any return on the capital. I should have quoted another phrase used in the article in the Irish Times of 1st January of this year after making the statement which I have already quoted:

Capital provided for these companies was not provided primarily as an investment for the purpose of earning a remunerative cash return. Indeed, the capitalist who makes an investment for this purpose would not have invested a shilling in any of these companies at their inception.

I do not know if that is a result of what I have said earlier on the matter. The Minister speaks of Bord na Móna. Again, we have the Minister's notes which were circulated to Deputies. A lot of information is given in the notes but the pivotal point as to whether Bord na Móna are paying their way or not remains obscure. On page 11 of his statement, the Minister says:

The probable financial result of Bord na Móna's operations will be a small surplus after all charges have been met.

That is the entire statement about the financial details of Bord na Móna given by the Minister this afternoon. In the explanatory notes, on page 28, it is stated that the Board had a net profit on the 1963-64 operations of £264,991. However, the debit balance given in the profit and loss account for 31st March, 1964, is £293,000. There has been an overall loss of £900,000 as a result of the bad harvest of 1958. The fact is that there was a debit balance this year of £293,000, and yet the Minister this afternoon said that the probable financial result of the Board's operations will be a small surplus after all charges have been met. On the other hand, this explanatory document circulated to Deputies gives an entirely different picture—a debit balance of more than a quarter of a million pounds.

The notes circulated to Deputies give figures of revenue, production, depreciation, interest and capital repayments, surplus, et cetera. Then they go into figures for the development of Bord na Móna. When I spoke on Bord na Móna last year or the year before, I had the statement of Mr. Lalor, the accountant, who agreed that Bord na Móna were carrying a very big sum of unremunerated capital which had been put by for future development. He was speaking in optimistic terms of the future. Then there is a statement about a sum of £250,000 for interest repayments for which no provision had been made.

Surely the Minister is in a position to tell the House now what money the State has advanced. I am calling it an advance in the hope that there will be some repayment. The Dáil should be given these figures so that we can consider them and arrive at a reasonably accurate estimate for the benefit of the public. I ask the Minister to let us have the figures necessary to consider this Estimate in the proper way.

The State has provided moneys for the development of Bord na Móna. That is not a criticism of Bord na Móna: many of these companies have to be started by loans—they had to get grants, mainly repayable grants —which the taxpayers had to bear in respect of charges. In 1964, surely it is possible to go back over the years and get calculations as to the moneys advanced by the State to Bord na Móna. Some part of these moneys I have no doubt has been repaid. How much? How much is outstanding? What is the provision in the Board's accounts?

I want that information because it is the only way to get this Estimate properly considered. What has the State to pay on the average for the moneys the State had to borrow to advance to Bord na Móna? How far do Bord na Móna go to make provision for repayment? Is that in accord with the levy the State has to make on the citizens in order to repay those who lent the money in the first instance? I am trying to get all this put on the basis of a phrase I picked up in the Minister's statement on page 8 in respect of harbours. He said that normally all harbours should be operated as commercial undertakings and that development, maintenance and so on should be financed on a commercial basis.

Can we take that as a standard for State companies? Perhaps after consideration of those matters, we can say we shall forgive a certain amount of the financing but let the company start off at a particular time. We have come to that conclusion in respect of CIE: we have come to the conclusion that some of these bodies must be regarded as social services. I am afraid more and more of our State-sponsored bodies are moving into that area.

Anyway, the House should get the chance of saying which of these concerns should be kept going. At least there should be notional accounts on the basis that they will be operated as commercial undertakings. If any of these concerns had to go to the public for money, they would have to pay something for interest on capital or else they would have to say to the shareholders: "We cannot declare any dividends on the share capital in certain years but the time will come when we will be able to pay dividends".

In regard to State-sponsored companies, the public are entitled to know, through us, what the situation is. The Dáil can then be asked to come to a conclusion in regard to the future of certain companies. In the 15-page statement of the Minister there is nothing to help us to come to such a conclusion. Here and there in the notes circulated to Deputies, figures and financial results are given where it is possible to provide a clear picture of financial results. If it is possible to give a clear overall picture in respect of one, surely it should be possible to do it in all cases.

There is a statement that the ESB hope for a surplus. On what framework is that term used? As far as I remember, the Acts setting up the ESB provided that the ESB were not allowed to make a surplus. Naturally they could not be expected to forecast with accuracy what expenditure would be in any year—whether there would be expensive hydro-electrical development or whether there would be turfpowered development or something of the sort. Always, the understanding was that certainly their target should be to make sufficient money only to pay their expenses, including, of course, remuneration of capital. When the word "surplus" is used, and it is used in connection with a sum like £600,000, I wonder what has to be taken off that £600,000 because if over two years there was an average of £600,000, I feel the terms of the original legislation are not being carried out.

I intend to deal with one or two facets of the Estimate and I will be as brief as possible. I notice at page 8 of the Minister's brief he refers to the question of a grant of £175,000 being earmarked to cover works in progress or to commence shortly in Drogheda harbour. Perhaps the Minister would elaborate on that when replying. If my memory serves me correctly, about four or five years ago, a sum of £352,000 was allocated for work on Drogheda harbour. Since that time, apart from a considerable amount of exploration work which has been done up and down the river Boyne, no work has been done there.

The Minister said that the growing importance of the ports is reflected in the country's export trade which increased from £174 million in 1962 to £196 million in 1963. I am sure the Minister is aware that at Drogheda harbour, as in the case of some other ports, the tonnage in and out of the port has been dropping. Whether or not that is because the harbour is not as easily accessible as it was previously, I do not know. Perhaps the Minister might comment on that. I should like the Minister to let me know, if at all possible, what has happened the original grant. Has it been expended and, if so, how has it been expended? Is this an additional sum of money now being granted or is it a revised sum of money which will be granted now or what has the exploration work which has been carried out cost the taxpayer?

I am rather disappointed in regard to the table showing how energy was supplied that hydro-electricity still appears at only 8 per cent of the national usage, turf, 30 per cent; oil, 36 per cent and coal, 26 per cent. I had hoped it would be possible to fill in the national grid with energy from hydro-electricity or from native fuel. Despite the comment made by the previous speaker I know that Bord na Móna are making an excellent attempt to produce turf as cheaply as possible.

With regard to the coal used, what is the situation in Arigna? Is it true that only a limited amount—I think it is 60,000 tons—can be taken by the ESB from suppliers in Arigna? If that is so, is it also true that one firm supplies the biggest part of that coal? Is it true that somebody with a rather tenuous connection with the Government has got a contract for the supply of coal from Arigna to the ESB? Perhaps the Minister might let me know what is the position about that, if he can.

With regard to tourism, again, I am rather sceptical about the figures being given by the Department. We always get figures put down as if they came from the Bible. If they are put down in the Minister's brief, then they must be true. I do not agree that the figures compiled can be as accurate as the Minister claims they are. I believe that there has been a big increase in tourism but I would again like to point out that the mistake appears to be continuing that somebody who lives abroad for economic reasons and who returns home on a holiday is a tourist. I do not agree that such a person is a tourist. A person who was born in Ireland and who has gone abroad and returns on holiday should not be treated as if he were a tourist and should not be included in the number that Bord Fáilte have brought into the country by dint of selling the country to them. Such a person would have come in any case.

Again, the accent is on a type of accommodation which is not the right type. I understand that it is extremely difficult to get registration for small hotels. I know one hotel on which a considerable amount of money has been spent recently on reorganisation and reconstruction work and the proprietors have been told by Bord Fáilte that because of the fact that they have not got a bar they do not come within the scope and that the hotel can no longer continue as a hotel.

As one of those people who have no interest in bars as such I feel that it should not be a prerequisite that there is a bar in a hotel in order to be registered as a hotel. It is most unfair that somebody should decide that a hotel that has been carried on as an excellent hotel for many years and on which a very considerable amount of money has been spent recently for the purpose of bringing it up to date, should have a bar—which in this case they cannot have—or else cannot be registered as a hotel. That is wrong and I would ask that the regulation be changed.

We still seem to think that we must cater for thousands of Americans who come here loaded with money. I would welcome American tourists or any tourists coming here. It does not matter where they come from. The fact must be borne in mind, however that the majority of people who come here on holiday, apart from our own people, are the ordinary working class people from across the Channel and when they come here they spend far more money than very many people who have a thousand times more worldly goods than they possess.

I happen to live close to a holiday camp which makes its own arrangements for attracting and advertising for tourists. It does this mainly in England, Scotland and Wales. The people who come there are very decent people who seem to enjoy their holiday and who spend money freely. That has not been the experience with the majority of people who come from farther afield.

The Minister has given a considerable amount of data in his opening speech. In order to try to capitalise on our tourist attractions, we must approach the question of tourism in a different way. The Minister has referred to the large grants available for major tourist resorts. I do not know whether the Minister is aware of it or not but it is a fact that because of the money being made available to major tourist resorts the smaller tourist resorts are dropping behind. Recently I had an experience in what may be considered a minor tourist resort. The local golf club at Bettystown went to considerable expense in replacing the club house and providing every type of accommodation, not only for residents but for the many hundreds of people who come to the area during the summer. When the club applied for a grant to Bord Fáilte they were politely told that the money was not available, that the question would be considered but it was not thought very likely that they would get a grant for the work being carried out.

In view of the fact that the area is developing and attracts a considerable number of tourists, who come to the Bettystown, Laytown, and Mornington area, without counting the town of Drogheda or the Butlin's Camp nearby, and the fact that all the people there who are interested in golfing are catered for at Bettystown, Bord Fáilte should have given a grant to this very progressive body. That is a personal view.

If the Board confine their grants to major resorts, surely the Minister must be aware that over the years a big gulf will develop between the major resorts and those which are now of medium size but which will eventually taper off because of the fact that they are not able to secure the necessary money to develop properly.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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