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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jun 1964

Vol. 211 No. 7

Committee on Finance. - Insurance Bill, 1964: Money Resolution.

I move:

That for the purpose of any Act of the present session to provide for the establishment of a fund to be known as the Insurance Compensation Fund to meet certain liabilities of insolvent insurers, to provide for the making of a grant and loans to the funds by the Minister for Finance and contributions to the fund by insurers, and for those and other purposes to amend and extend the Insurance Acts, 1909 to 1961, it is expedient to authorise:—

(1) the making to the Insurance Compensation Fund out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of a grant of thirty thousand pounds;

(2) the advance out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of all moneys from time to time required by the Minister for Finance for—

(a) the advance by him from time to time to the Insurance Compensation Fund of such sums as he thinks proper to enable payments out of the Fund under such Act to be made expeditiously, and

(b) the acquisition by him of shares in the Irish Life Assurance Company, Limited;

(3) the charge on and payment out of the Central Fund or the growing produce thereof of the principal of and interest on all securities issued by the Minister for Finance for the purpose of borrowing under such Act; and

(4) the payment out of moneys provided by the Oireachtas of the expenses incurred in the administration of such Act."

The Minister rather naively on the last occasion brushed aside any reference to his responsibility in relation to the matters covered by this measure. In view of that it is, I think, better that there should go down on the record the exact responsibility the Minister has, the responsibility which, because of his failure to exercise it at the appropriate time, necessitated the introduction of this Bill. I referred generally to the particular section on Second Reading. The section gives the Minister ample power. It was interpreted to my personal knowledge as meaning that the Minister had the power to inquire as to the position of insurance companies.

The relevant section is section 46 of the Insurance Act, 1936. Under subsection (1):

The Minister may, by notice served upon an assurance company, require such company to furnish to him within such time as may be specified in such notice, such specified explanations, information, accounts, balance sheets, abstracts and statements as the Minister may consider necessary, for determining whether such company is or is not insolvent.

What are the facts? The facts in relation to this particular insurance company are that there was one very large investment on its balance sheet which was not a quoted investment, as the Minister must have been aware. In spite of that fact, the Minister did nothing about it. My information is that that position arose some years before the actual liquidation of the Equitable Insurance Company. It certainly was common knowledge that this company was in a precarious state for a considerable number of months before the Minister moved and in consequence people were paying in premiums all the time after that was known.

It is not for me to say the date on which the Minister had knowledge of the insolvency, or suspected insolvency, of this company, but it is an undoubted fact which the Minister cannot deny— and the Minister as an honest man will not deny it—that he knew for a very considerable time that there was such a state of affairs in existence and that he should have asked for the information under section 46 of the Act.

The fact that he did not do so has to some degree necessitated this measure. It is better that we should get from him some indication of the amount involved in relation to the measure. Admittedly, £30,000 is the maximum amount that will be involved as far as the State's contribution is concerned, but apart from that, how much will be involved? I make the Minister a present of this piece of information: the amount that has to be paid under the Motor Insurance Bureau alone for claims under that specific risk and which arise because of the defalcations of the Equitable Insurance Company will exceed £100,000. I do not know what the other deficiencies will be. The Minister must have got an estimate, even if only a rough estimate, of the amount at the time he got the estimate in relation to the workman's compensation business. As well as I can recollect, the words he used the other day in reply to a question were—I do not want to misquote him—that some hundreds of thousands of pounds were involved.

Those are the words I used.

I cannot find the exact quotation. As I say, £100,000 is involved on the Motor Insurance Bureau side alone. I did not know whether the Minister was taking the Motor Insurance Bureau into account when he mentioned "some hundreds of thousands of pounds", but it is proper that the House should be given the full extent insofar as it is known at present, of this deficiency. I should also like the Minister, on the Money Resolution, to give us some indication of how this particular case is differentiated from the other insurance company that went into liquidation some years ago—I think it was called the Irish Employers' Mutual; I remember that it had its Head Office in Pearse Street —and why that insolvency did not generate the idea of the levy involved here.

Possibly the Minister may have seen a reference in the newspapers to the fact that one company proposes to challenge this levy, to resist it. I do not know what is involved in that; I have no more information on it than I saw in the newspapers. The plain fact of the matter is that this Bill is necessary, to a large extent, because the Minister did not exercise the rights he had in relation to section 46 and I should like him to explain clearly to the House why he did not exercise them in this particular case when, as he knows himself, he was making inquiries in other cases.

I should like to join with Deputy Sweetman in stating to the House, in the presence of the Minister, that the failure of the Minister and his Department—he must take responsibility for it—to exercise the ample powers in section 46 of the 1936 Act has caused considerable public uneasiness. It must be recognised that under the statutory insurance code, there is imposed on certain categories of people an obligation to insure against certain contingencies and risks. That has been in this country since the Road Traffic Act, 1933. There are also other forms of insurance risk which, from a practical point of view, any prudent person must insure against and when the State lays down, as this State has done, obligations which require widespread insurance cover, and also lays down a system of control with regard to those who may engage in insurance business, there is in those circumstances a very definite obligation on the Minister who has the responsibility to keep a very watchful eye on what is going on.

People are encouraged to insure, and I think it is right that they should be so encouraged. They are told this is our system: that there are certain recognised insurance companies which make deposits in the High Court and which are authorised by the State to engage in insurance business. They are told also by our legislation that there is a member of the Government specially charged with the responsibility of supervising the conduct of insurance business by recognised insurance companies, and small people who pay their money in the way of premiums and so on are entitled in those circumstances to expect that a section in an Act of Parliament would not be regarded as a dead letter.

There is no one in this country in the past five or six years who did not know that the Equitable Insurance Company was in the height of trouble. Anyone who has anything to do with the practice of law must have known from the manner in which the company was carrying on its business that its financial circumstances were at least suspect. The conduct of the Equitable Insurance Company and the way in which it was carried on was, in a variety of ways, symptomatic of a very doubtful financial situation. I know that, apart from that, there were, or should have been, indications to the advisers of any Minister that here was something that required the most careful scrutiny.

In those circumstances, it passes my comprehension how the Minister failed to exercise the ample and generous powers laid down in section 46. Under section 46 of the Insurance Act, as Deputy Sweetman pointed out, the Minister was enabled to get the fullest information as to what was going on in that insurance company. He was entitled to examine the records, to satisfy himself with regard to the kind of cover they had for the risks they were insuring. He was entitled to do all these things. So far as I know at the moment, and I hope I am wrong, it appears that none of these powers was exercised by the Minister. Nothing at all was done and the drift of the Equitable Insurance Company to its inevitable end was allowed to proceed. It was inevitable that that company would end in liquidation, as it did, but its liquidation brought with it heartache, tragedy and misery for a great number of people.

We are discussing a Money Resolution. We shall be discussing in a few moments the details of the Bill which the Minister introduced eventually, after a considerable time lag. That Bill does not pay the bill due by the Equitable Insurance Company for a whole lot of people have suffered hugely in the past 18 months, who had to suffer in terms of money, in terms of hardship and misery, and who can never be compensated and whom it is not proposed to compensate by this Insurance Bill. It is not a story I should ever like to see repeated, but I do say, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, when this House passed the Insurance Act in 1936, a responsibility was placed on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to supervise carefully the conduct of insurance business. This House in giving him power under section 46 of the Insurance Act of 1936 was doing something which it expected to be acted upon. It did not expect that that Act would go on the Statute Book, and be left there to gather dust, without any of the Minister's advisers from time to time thumbing through the Act to see not merely what their powers were, but also what their responsibilities were.

It is a bad thing when safeguards are introduced into an Act such as the Insurance Act of 1936 and, once introduced, are to be forgotten. Insurance is an industry which permanently depends on public confidence. Fortunately, the people of this country have reached the stage where they appreciate the importance of insurance. The collapse of the Equitable Insurance Company in circumstances of apparent ministerial complacency has shaken the confidence of a great number of people in insurance of this kind.

I appreciate the Minister has to take responsibility for any act or omission that may appear to be proven and, for that reason, is the responsible member of the Government who has to account to us here for failure to exercise the powers under section 46. I think this House is entitled to a very full explanation from him as to why the clear powers in that section were not exercised in this instance.

I have been astonished by a number of things associated with the collapse of the Equitable Insurance Company. I have even been more astonished listening to Deputy O'Higgins a few moments ago. The fact that everybody in the country knew the Equitable Insurance was going to collapse was not evident to me and to other members who had taken out insurance and who had been burned. At least one member got himself into serious trouble as a result of it. It is a pity that people who knew about that did not use their knowledge for the purpose of warning others that there was a danger that it was going to collapse.

We are blaming the Minister now. I am quite aware we must accept the auditor's certificate. If we do not accept the auditor's certificate in general, we are then upsetting a recognised principle in this country. But the one thing that has been worrying me is that if I thought it was because of certain associations with the company that a very doubtful asset was accepted as being there when, in fact, it was not then I would be prepared to pillory the Minister. If that is not so, then the matter is on an entirely different plane.

The only other comment I should like to make is that the Minister is apparently covering those who have succeeded in making some kind of settlement through the courts. That is the point which Deputy Coogan tried to get clarified the other day. Is it not a fact that cases which have been settled in and out of court are covered by this Bill?

That is true.

In that case then, the only third case that could possibly be affected is that of a person who has paid a very heavy sum by way of premium almost immediately before the final collapse of the company. Apparently there is no provision—possibly there cannot be—for recouping him. The amount of money involved is, I suppose, the reason why this cannot be done. I asked the Minister a question the other day and he did not answer me. Perhaps he will do so now. Is it true that quite a lot of the money which was paid in premiums through brokers never found its way to the Equitable Insurance Company? Could the Minister say whether this is correct or not? Is it true money paid through brokers on a yearly settlement with the company was not paid? Is it still in the hands of the brokers and, if so, why is that not taken into account?

Secondly, could the Minister say why a statement was not made as to the extent of coverage still held following liquidation of the Equitable Insurance Company? I ask that again since their policies were cancelled from 31st July when, in fact, the company was unable to meet any claims from May. We had the question of people who had road tax on the basis of insurance for another 12 months. If they had continued to use their road tax which was no use, was a statement made by anybody in authority that the insurance was no longer valid, or no use to them? I do not think so. Apart from notification sent out by the receiver, people were allowed to go around with a piece of paper about as useful as the Order of Business, read out by the Taoiseach here today, is now.

I think a bad mistake was made in that case and was most unfair to people who got caught. A number of people here got caught and had to pay insurance again. I am aware that a number of people could not afford that at all and, in fact, had great difficulty in finding the original amount and had extreme difficulty in raising the money to cover a second insurance. I believe that if he was at fault, the Minister was at fault there. He should have made some effort to clarify the position at that stage.

I feel this Bill is being rushed through the House.

The Deputy will appreciate that we are discussing the Money Resolution.

As previous speakers have said, it is obvious that the Minister did not insist on the terms of the 1936 Act being complied with, because if he had, no doubt it would have been discovered at least one year, and possibly two years, earlier, that this company was unable to meet its liabilities. If that is taken into consideration, the assets of £80,000 mentioned were almost fictitious and could not be regarded as an indication of solvency.

This £1 million which it is proposed to put into a fund is, in a way, an invitation to unscrupulous insurance companies to neglect their business, knowing that protection is now there and available, which was not there before. If the terms of the 1936 - Act had been complied with, there would have been no need for the fund which it is now proposed to set up. It is too late to say it, but the required deposit of £30,000 which applied in 1936 for a licence to transact motor insurance business was very much out of date in 1964. It is a pity the amount of deposit for a licence was not adjusted in the meantime.

This £1 million will include a grant from the State, in addition to levies from the insurance companies and also a loan made by the Minister for Finance. The insurance companies object to the proposal that a levy should be made on their resources, just because one insurance company became insolvent, went out of business, and left a number of liabilities to be met—liabilities which the State considers necessary to be met as a result of the Equitable Insurance Company going out of business. It appears to be most unfair to put a levy on insurance companies in retrospect in respect of money now required to meet the liabilities of another firm which had gone out of business.

I know the insurance companies will contest this proposal, and I believe their case will succeed. I do not believe there is any case to be made for the retrospective levy which is proposed here, in order to assist the Government and the State to meet liabilities imposed by the 1936 Act. It is quite clear that the 1936 Act imposed liabilities and responsibilities on motor vehicle insurers. When the 1936 Act was passed, no effort was made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, or the Minister for Finance, to set up a fund such as is now proposed. If that had been the case, it is possible that we would not be confronted with the situation that now exists.

Of course the basic trouble is that the Minister did not insist on the terms of the 1936 Act being complied with by this particular insurance company. The 1936 Act imposed responsibilities, and no effort was made by the Government in the meantime to set up a fund. It is most unfair at this stage to require the insurance companies to make a contribution towards this proposed fund in order to discharge liabilities incurred by the Equitable Insurance Company.

I feel this Bill is being put through too quickly. It is being dealt with on the basis of an emergency. Of course, there is an emergency so far as the unfortunate people are concerned who were not covered by the funds of the Equitable Insurance Company, and who are now waiting to be paid in respect of injuries and losses which were supposed to be covered by the Equitable Insurance Company under the 1936 Act. Instead of trying to rush this Bill through the House, as he is doing, the Minister should try to bring in some brief piece of legislation which would enable the immediate liabilities to be met, and then general legislation to cover all aspects and contingencies could be brought in at a later stage when the facts could be debated at greater length and more carefully.

If we put through this Insurance Bill which may meet what it is designed to meet, that is, the immediate situation that has arisen, I feel at a later stage the defects arising from hurrying this Bill through will become apparent. For that reason, I am not happy about the Bill going through as it stands, although I am anxious to see the people who are waiting for compensation paid equitably and as quickly as possible. There are many cases of very great hardships.

Various aspects have already been mentioned by other speakers and I shall not repeat them on this occasion. Certainly all the points mentioned by previous speakers are worthy of consideration and if they were considered, we would have before us a very different Bill, a more comprehensive and possibly a more appropriate Bill.

The Minister, to conclude.

Not necessarily to conclude. We are in Committee.

No other Deputy offered.

We are in Committee, and if the Minister raises new matters, we are entitled to speak again.

I propose to deal with——

I want to hear what the Minister has to say. I have the right to speak again, whether or not he raises new matters.

I do not question that right. The Deputy's rights here are a matter for the Chair, not for me.

The debate is confined to a discussion on expenditure——

Expenditure which would not be necessary if he had done his job. That is the case made.

The 1936 Insurance Act imposes an obligation on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to require insurance companies to lodge their accounts annually in a specified manner. It does not require the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the officers of his Department to audit the accounts of insurance companies, or to assess the assets of insurance companies as disclosed in the returns made to the Department. I explained at some length on the last occasion, when concluding the Second Reading debate, the details of the procedure—the requirements upon the insurance companies in connection with the lodging of their accounts. I do not think it is necessary to go into them again.

Under section 46, there is an obligation on the Minister for Industry and Commerce to cause inquiries to be made if a doubt arises about the solvency of an insurance company. I do not accept at all what Deputy O'Higgins has said. It is as much a surprise to me as to Deputy Tully that it was common knowledge in the legal profession that the Equitable were in a difficult position for five or six years. If that was common knowledge, it certainly did not reach me or people like Deputy Tully who entrusted their insurances to the Equitable. Apparently it did not reach the other insurance companies either because up to a short time before the liquidation was sought in the High Court, the other insurance companies continued to do business with the Equitable. One would imagine that other companies would be the very first to hear whether difficulties had arisen in connection with a particular company with which they were doing business.

It is true that rumours started some time in the early part of 1963 about the position of the Equitable Insurance Company. The accounts of the Equitable Insurance Company for the year ended 30th June, 1962, were required under the Act to be lodged with the Department of Industry and Commerce at the end of that year, on 31st December 1962. It was common practice for insurance companies to require a further three months within which to lodge their accounts and, again, this was provided for in the 1936 Act.

It was provided in the 1936 Act that the Minister for Industry and Commerce could give extensions up to 31st March in the next ensuring year within which insurance companies could lodge their accounts. A request to this effect was received from the Equitable Insurance Company and they gave the reasons. Their first reason was that the managing director of the company died suddenly in January, 1962, that is, during the accounting year in respect of which the final accounts were lodged. The second reason advanced was that because of a change of auditors in August, 1962, they were unable to lodge their accounts by the end of 1962 and therefore required the extension, which was granted. It is not necessary to show such serious cause for the application for extension of time and it was, as I have said, granted to the Equitable, as, indeed, it was to other insurance companies. During the period of the extension, these rumours circulated. In the meantime, my Department continued to press the Equitable for the lodgment of their accounts, even before the end of March. Nevertheless, they had of course the extension given under the statute.

On 3rd April, 1963—just three days after 31st March—it was found that the Equitable had not yet lodged the accounts for the year ended June, 1962. Officers of my Department contacted the Equitable Insurance Company and pointed out that they were in breach of the statute—although they were not, up to 31st March, 1963 —and pressed them to lodge their accounts. A typescript copy of the returns was then immediately forwarded. Even though that copy of the returns was not complete, it did appear from them that the company was not solvent.

A reference has been made to an asset written into the previous returns of the Equitable indicating assets to the value of some £70,000 or £80,000 in favour of the Equitable Company. The returns made do not require the insurance company to identify these assets. These assets are written into the returns without identification of the investments. They are written in as "investments", with the value of the investments. It is not a function of my officers to evaluate these easements.

As Deputy Tully pointed out here today, the whole pattern of business and trade in this country, and in many other countries, depends on the services of auditors. They are qualified people and are specifically recognised under the Companies Act. Their qualifications are recognised. It is practice here and elsewhere to accept auditors' certificates. The auditors' certificates accompanied all the prior returns of the Equitable—certificates to the effect that the returns and the accounts disclosed the true position of the company and that the value of the assets disclosed was accurate and correct to the knowledge of the auditors. As well as that, they were certified as being so correct by the certifying officers of the insurance company itself.

When it did appear from the incomplete typescript copy of the returns that the company was insolvent, I certainly delayed some further weeks in an attempt to salvage the position of that company. I saw representatives of several insurance companies, both British and Irish. I felt that to act precipitously in any way would damage not only the insurance industry itself but might damage the wider field of Irish economic endeavour.

When my efforts to assist the Equitable over the troubles failed, I had then no alternative but to petition the High Court, as I did on 11th May, 1963, for the appointment of a liquidator by the court. That was done on 21st May. Had it been done on 21st January, I ask the House if the situation would have been materially different. Would it not have been the case that some insured persons would still have unexpired portions of their year of cover and therefore of the value of their policies still to run? Would there not be a considerable amount of money due to policy holders who had claims made against them by people either in their employment, in the case of employer's liability, or people who were injured as a result of alleged negligent driving of the insured person? The fact is that when on 21st May the liquidator was appointed, a certain number of claims were outstanding and there were certain unexpired premiums in respect of which no claim had been made and probably were not made subsequently. Nevertheless, the people who had paid those premiums found they were not covered.

Deputy Tully suggested that some explanation should have been provided as to the value of insurance certificates held by the people who had paid these premiums. I was in no position to say if the assets of the company would have covered the claims against them. I understand that the liquidator who was appointed by the court acted in accordance with the directions of the court and not otherwise. I believe he went as far as the circumstances, as he then knew them, allowed him to go with regard to notifying policy holders. With regard to the amount that was involved in toto——

I see in the report I am quoted as having said what the Minister said apparently. "Hundreds of thousands" is attributed to me and not to the Minister.

Probably the Deputy repeated what I said. I think it was in my opening statement I said that hundreds of thousands were involved. I accept Deputy Sweetman's assessment of the value of the claims made on the Motor Insurance Bureau as £100,000. As the House is well aware, it is impossible at the moment, or perhaps in a reasonably protracted period, to assess what exactly the liability will be.

I agree, but perhaps the Minister can give a rough assessment?

I can only give a rough assessment from the liquidator. There is an assessment of £100,000 for which the Motor Insurance Bureau has accepted liability. The balance of the liabilities range somewhere between £100,000 and £200,000.

Can the £100,000 be excluded? Will an attempt not be made to collect from people who are a good risk?

I believe there will not be any further claims made for any moneys met by the Motor Insurance Bureau.

Is that agreed with the Bureau?

I hope it is right.

We are not proposing to take account of the value of unexpired premiums because the purpose is to meet the claims of hardship cases. Of course any person who was insured and has a claim against him will be a hardship case. It is expected that it would require considerably more time than we envisage here if we try to repay the balance of premiums of policy holders.

Surely a person who took out a premium for £3,000 the week before the company went broke should be considered?

That is a matter I am afraid I cannot take into account just now. I may say, in reply to a question by Deputy Tully, which unfortunately I omitted to comment on during the course of my reply to the Second Reading debate, that I have had no complaint other than what the Deputy said, that brokers collected premiums and failed to pass them on to the Equitable Insurance Company. If that is the case, it will be a matter for the liquidator to get after the brokers and to demand payment of the premiums they collected for and on behalf of the Equitable Insurance Company. I have no doubt the power of the court will be adequate to ensure that whatever payments are outstanding will be brought into the account of the Equitable fund.

I understand since they got no cover they were entitled to pass on premiums. There is likely to be a court action if it has not been settled.

I do not know if there were other points made that I have not dealt with. Deputy Rooney suggested, on his legal knowledge, that there was no doubt about the outcome of an action some insurance companies were contemplating taking about the constitutionality of this Bill. I am advised it is constitutional; Deputy Rooney has stated it is not. I am prepared to act on and rely on the advice I have got.

May I say, first of all, in relation to what the Minister said, I make no charge about his not insisting that the accounts to 31st March, 1962, should have been returned earlier. I fully accept and understand the circumstances in which they were not asked for then. I agree with the Minister's statement that it is correct that similar extensions of time have been requested and granted in other cases by him. That is not the gravamen of my charge at all. My charge is that the 1936 Act was brought in to ensure that there would be an end to insolvency in Irish insurance companies.

The whole reason for the 1936 Act was that insurance companies were then insolvent. The Minister is fully aware that the purpose of the amalgamation of the life and industrial insurance companies was the fact that many of the companies were insolvent. The then Dáil was given an assurance that there were ample powers in this Act to make certain it would not happen again. It has happened again on two occasions. The Irish Employers Mutual fell down. There were no public funds paid to remedy the unfortunate circumstances in which certain people found themselves at that time.

We now have the second case. Everybody with any intelligence must accept the fact that it is not possible for the Minister for Industry and Commerce to audit the books or the accounts of an insurance company but it is the function of the Minister for Industry and Commerce to assess the value of the assets set out in the balance sheet. It was his function to assess the value of the assets set out in the balance sheet filed in respect of the year ended 31st March, 1961.

I never saw that balance sheet. I only know what is in it by hearsay. I am told that examination of that balance sheet would show anyone that there was an imbalance in it, which would mean that the Minister should look for the further information which section 46 of the 1936 Act specified. The balance sheet was not such that anybody picking it up and looking at it would say: "Of course the company is insolvent." That was not the position. The position is that it is not right for the Minister to say he has no function to evaluate whether or not an insurance company is solvent or is insolvent. He has that function. He was deliberately given that function in the 1936 Act and he failed to exercise it in respect of the delay in the extensions of time he gave and he failed to exercise it in respect of his analysis of the balance sheet to 31st March, 1961.

The Minister has taken it that we are challenging his doing nothing about the matter between 3rd April and the date when he moved in May. Again, I make no accusation against him whatever in respect of that period. If 3rd April, 1963, was the first time he knew the Equitable was insolvent, then we certainly would not argue that a month or five weeks, or whatever it was, was an unreasonable time for him to cast around and see what he could do. But I challenge the Minister to stand up in this House, knowing him to be an honest man, and say that 3rd April, 1963, was the first time he knew the Equitable Insurance Company was insolvent. I challenge the Minister to deny that the directors of that company knew six months before that the company was hopelessly insolvent, and yet no action was taken by the Minister in pursuance of the powers vested in him under the Act.

I want to explain one thing I said, on which Deputy Tully and the Minister commented. I said, in relation to the practice of law, that anyone in practice in the courts would have known for some five or six years before the eventual crash of the Equitable that it was heading that way. I want to repeat that. But what I said is not based on any particular knowledge of the trading position of the Equitable, its balance sheet or anything of that kind. I was referring to the fact that the Equitable Insurance Company had become a byword in the courts for endeavouring to avoid the clearest possible obligations for the most outlandish reasons. It was well known that, if it were a case involving the Equitable, the most far-fetched and bizarre reasons would be advanced for the company to escape liability. That particular course of conduct involved the Equitable in the most expensive of litigation, which inevitably, to anyone appreciating the very high standard ordinarily operated by most insurance companies, would put one on notice that a company carrying on that way must inevitably end in trouble.

Deputy Rooney rose.

I feel this is irregular. The Chair has been very lenient to Deputies on the Money Resolution. We are being treated to Second Reading speeches on the Money Resolution, which is totally irregular. In Committee on Finance, it is proper to confine Deputies to one speech. This is the practice on Estimates and Financial Resolutions.

With respect, the Chair can look through any Money Resolutions on any Bill and he will find dozens of interjections by Deputies. The advice the Chair has got in that respect is entirely inaccurate.

I am referring to debates on Money Resolutions.

I can remember one Money Resolution going on for days.

The Money Resolution on the Health Bill went on for three or four weeks.

It has been the practice that the mover of the motion concludes on the Money Resolution.

With respect, Sir, it has not. We had better both verify our information.

I have already verified it. I would ask the Deputy to verify his knowledge.

Certainly, Sir. The Money Resolution on the Health Bill lasted three separate weeks, with different Deputies making perhaps 20 interventions.

In relation to the Minister's remarks concerning retrospective effect, there is approximately £250,000 involved. That is a lot of money, particularly when it relates to unfortunate people who have suffered heavy loss, may be loss of limb or even loss of life. The Bill tells us that the Minister will provide a grant of £30,000 and will seek a loan from the Minister for Finance. He is going to levy the remainder on the existing insurance companies licensed under the 1936 Act. I know the Minister has a legal right to impose this levy on the insurance companies in order to make up this fund. In the last Budget, there was a retrospective clause in respect of corporation profits tax. The same principle is being operated here. We should have an end to that kind of retrospective legislation as soon as possible. It may have been considered justified in relation to corporation profits tax, but we are introducing the same principle here. In the long run, it is not the insurance companies who will pay this money, but the ordinary man in the street. He will have to pay a substantial proportion of this through premiums. The insurance companies have no money to pay out except the money they collect into a fund from the various policy holders on their books.

And invest.

They invest that money very prudently and make a profit on the transaction. It is certain that insurance premiums will have to be increased in order to meet the cost of this levy. The insurance companies have no money of their own to contribute. They will have to put up the premiums as soon as possible to get back whatever is levied on them. In addition, they will have to put on a levy to build up this fund proposed in the Bill.

These points would be relevant on Committee Stage. I fail to see how they are relevant on the Money Resolution. The Deputy will get an opportunity of raising this on Committee Stage.

They will arise on the Committee Stage.

In reply to Deputy Sweetman, I did hear a rumour prior to 3rd April, 1963, that this company was insolvent. I wish to tell the House, also, that I took legal advice about my position, and the eminent senior counsel who moved the petition for winding up in the High Court advised me that without the accounts I should not succeed in that application. The accounts were my evidence of the state of solvency, in so far as they did disclose the solvency of the company. The previous accounts did not show the company to be insolvent. I did present the accounts for the previous year, up to 30th June, 1961, and Deputy Sweetman must have seen them.

Could the Minister tell us why, when he heard the rumour, he did not operate section 46 to serve notice?

As soon as I got evidence to support the rumour——

If it will pacify the Chair, I shall raise the matter on section 6.

Question put and agreed to.
Resolution reported and agreed to.
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