Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Jul 1964

Vol. 211 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Transport and Power (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration. — Deputy McGilligan.)

Minister for Transport and Power (Mr. Childers)

A question was asked in regard to the supplies of coal for the Arigna generating station, one suggestion being that coal supplies were solely provided by one colliery. It is true that colliery has the largest deposits of coal in the area. In fact, there are three other small suppliers to the generating station.

A number of Deputies raised the question of the position of Irish Shipping Limited. Here again in formulating policy for Irish Shipping it has been quite impossible to predict what would be the character of trade and shipping freight rates over a considerable period because this depends on the growth of world trade, changes in regard to wheat growing and changes in regard to the growth of secondary industries in countries where only the raw materials were available and changes in the volume of shipping tonnage over a period of ten years and on the intentions of new and emerging powers towards shipping development.

I should make it clear that Irish Shipping have not been operating on a purely commercial basis. They have been required by Government direction to increase their fleet until they have sufficient cargo vessels with which to provide supplies in time of emergency. If Irish Shipping had been operating on a purely commercial basis, I have no doubt that the fleet would be smaller and that they would have due regard to the collapse of freight rates after the Suez adventure.

Nevertheless, I am satisfied that Irish Shipping has been conducting its business efficiently. Deputies will have noticed the improvement in the last financial year. It is not possible to say what the next financial year will bring but part of the advantage arising through increased rates will affect this year's accounts. I have asked Irish Shipping to conduct a full investigation into their whole position because, as the fleet has now been built up to the limit required by Government direction, it is time to take stock of the position. Irish Shipping do all the Irish deep-sea trading that is possible. The vessels are designed for deep-sea trading and they do tramp shipping in the same way as other shipping companies.

It has always been our hope that Irish Shipping would be able to meet their financial requirements through their operations. The Acts under which Irish Shipping was formed clearly indicated that any surplus over and above depreciation of their vessels should be ploughed back into ships. It was never intended that they should pay a dividend to the State on the capital advance.

Mr. T. Lynch

Will the Minister indicate whether Irish Shipping would consider going into the live-stock trade?

Mr. Childers

Their ships are not built for that.

Mr. T. Lynch

Could some of the ships not be adapted for that trade?

Mr. Childers

None of their ships are suitable for carrying cattle across the Channel and it was never intended that they should be.

Mr. T. Lynch

I saw a vessel loading in Waterford on Monday and it was the same type as the Irish Shipping vessels. It was a Swedish ship and it had been adapted for cattle.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Tully asked about the dredging of Drogheda harbour. In 1960 the Government gave a grant up to a maximum of £65,000 for this work, which was estimated to cost £301,000. Some of the work has been completed and the remainder of it has been deferred, pending a report on the whole question. There are technical difficulties involved due to the movement of silt across the mouth of the bar.

Mr. Tully

Could the Minister say what is the cost of the investigations carried out up to the present?

Mr. Childers

I could not give the cost now.

Mr. Tully

There is a lot of uneasiness about that matter. It is felt that a tremendous amount of money has been spent uselessly.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Flanagan paid a tribute to the work of Bord na Móna, one of the projects carried out by Fianna Fáil. I was glad to hear him speak in that way. Questions were asked about the financial position of Bord na Móna the answers to which were fully set out in the annual report. I wish Deputies would do a little more homework before they come in here and criticise me for not giving information. Bord na Móna has borrowed about £22 million and has repaid a little over £2¼ million of that sum. They have even repaid a sum of £440,915 advanced to the former Turf Development Board from which they took over. There is no part of their operations relating to present turf production in which capital is not being remunerated and they do not receive any free grants for their operations today. Full particulars are given in their report.

They did lose £900,000 over a number of years and they still have to repay £293,000 of that amount. If Deputies will look at the total turnover each year they will realise that that loss is not serious and that it is being repaid from year to year. All the turf bogs which can be exploited economically are being surveyed and developed by Bord na Móna, and after 1969, unless we can discover some new method of operation, which is unlikely, more and more of the electricity produced in this country will be derived from oil imported and refined at Whitegate. I hope we will be able to discover some new natural source of power but it is doubtful.

Mr. Tully

Does the Minister think the bogs will all be worked out by 1969?

Mr. Childers

All the bogs which are capable of economic development will have been surveyed and will have come into operation by 1969.

Mr. Tully

Did the Minister say that more oil would have to be used up to 1969?

Mr. Childers

Proportionately more oil will have to be used from then on unless we discover some method of economic development of our natural resources.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would the Minister not consider using coal instead of oil?

Mr. Childers

It would be a matter for the ESB to say which would be the most economic method of production. Briquette production is going ahead. The increase in production is 93.7 per cent since 1960 and 19.6 per cent last year over the year before that. They are doing everything they can to supply the market, but it has grown beyond their most optimistic predictions. Deputy Flanagan expressed a hope that there would be more turf exploitation in the areas west of the Shannon. Bord na Móna intends to develop 3,000 acres of bog in South Roscommon. There is also a bog in East Galway and the Bellacorick Bog is in full exploitation.

Questions were asked about the Wexford power station. The tenders were examined in the usual way by the ESB who are not obliged to accept the lowest tender. I have complete faith in the Board that they acted properly in regard to their duty.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would the Minister tell us something about the station?

Mr. Childers

It is solely an oil station.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would the Minister not consider making it an alternative station for the use of coal?

Mr. Childers

I trust the ESB to make a wise decision on that matter.

With regard to questions raised about Bord Fáilte, on the matter of the regional committees, 39 local authorities contributed last year to the Irish Tourist Association and of these 37 have voted contributions to the new regional committees. Of those 37, increases have been voted by 27 and these increases have ranged from 50 per cent to over 100 per cent so these authorities cannot have been dissatisfied with the way the caretaker boards have been appointed and must feel fully satisfied with the character of the new regional organisations whose boards will be elected democratically.

Mr. Tully

Meath County Council notified the Minister that they were not prepared to contribute but eventually, under duress, they did agree to do so.

Mr. Childers

I have not got the details, but the figures I have given suggest a measure of general satisfaction which would be contrary to the statement made by Deputy Briscoe. I have not time to go into the question of the general administration of these regional companies, except to say they are meant to represent the whole community interested in tourism—not only local authorities but the whole community. If they are eventually to have sufficient funds to be able to compete with foreign regional tourist companies, they must have the support of the general business community as well as the local authorities, and it was upon that principle their articles of association were based.

Mr. T. Lynch

I find myself supporting Deputy Briscoe. We are paying the money under duress and under protest.

Mr. Childers

Deputy Tully raised the question of Bord Fáilte policy in general. I indicated quite clearly in my statement on the Estimates that as far back as the end of 1962 I gave Bord Fáilte a blue-print of what I regarded as important matters for consideration, and important policies for development. I emphasised the need for encouraging tourists from the middle-income and lower-income groups to come here. Grants to hotels and guesthouses are all in line with that development. It is hoped that there will be increased moderate-priced accommodation in hotels, holiday camps, motels and guesthouses in the next five years, in order to attract people of the middle-income and lower-income groups to this country. That is quite clearly part of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. If the Deputy reads that part of my speech, he will see that I deal with it in detail.

There is also the question of the definition of tourist, as used by Bord Fáilte. Tourists, by international agreement, include everyone who goes from one country to another, but in the report of Bord Fáilte there is a separation between what we regard as real tourists and our own people returning for holidays. Not including that element, the report indicates that the income from real tourists—and there is no concealment—is something like half the total income.

A question was raised whether Bord Fáilte engage in sufficient organisation in England to attract anglers. I suppose the answer is that the number of anglers is constantly increasing. Bord Fáilte and the Inland Fisheries Trust are co-operating to attract anglers here and to promote that side of the operation. So far as I know there are sufficient officers operating in Great Britain to attract anglers to this country.

Deputy Mullen asked a question about the finances of CERT, the organisation which is dealing with the training of hotel workers. Negotiations are going on between Bord Fáilte and the Federation of Hotels in regard to the collection of contributions. We hope the Federation of Hotels will be able to play their part in providing contributions to make the operation a success.

Deputy Mullen also referred to the British and Irish Steam Packet Company. He pointed out that I had mentioned the great improvements that will take place this winter in regard to the two ships serving the Dún Laoghaire/Holyhead route. He said I also mentioned the improvements that will take place on the Rosslare/Fishguard route, but that I had said nothing about the British and Irish Steam Packet Company. I understand they have improved the accommodation on their two vessels, and that the number of seats giving second-class passengers full shelter has increased. They claim that if second-class passengers wish to make use of the seating, there are seats for every passenger, even at the height of the season.

Deputy Esmonde referred to our ancient monuments. A general brochure is being prepared by the Office of Public Works giving a complete list of our ancient monuments. This will be provided in a modern attractive form. Bord Fáilte has a general pamphlet giving particulars of the principal ancient monuments in this country. I think the regional companies will have an opportunity of stressing the importance of our ancient monuments in any particular district. There are also a number of private publications which give full particulars of everything there is to see in this country. The Irish Shell Guide is a splendid publication and an enormous number of copies have been sold. Tribute should be paid to the Irish Shell Company for their delightful publication on the Shannon which is not expensive, gives a complete picture of the Shannon from Limerick to the source, and gives particulars of navigation and all the amenities available, and the history of the whole area.

I think Deputy Esmonde has been speaking to some of the fishermen who believe that removing pike and perch from trout lakes drives the trout to the bottom of the lakes where they become bottom feeders. That belief has been disproved——

Mr. Dillon

Hear, hear.

Mr. Childers

The most remarkable evidence that that does not happen is in the case of Lough Sheelin which has become one of the finest trout fisheries in Europe.

Another Deputy stressed the importance of international conferences. In the past year we had 32 conferences from abroad in which 5,200 delegates were present and spent £156,000. The Deputy is probably aware of the decision of the Royal Dublin Society to build a new conference hall. Also the coming of the International Hotel has resulted in increased accommodation for conferences. My belief is that the number of conferences will considerably increase as a result of those developments.

Deputy McGilligan raised a point about the estimated surplus of the ESB. The estimated surplus of £372,000 given in the note circulated is confirmed by the final ESB accounts. The statements in my speech that the surplus would be less than £636,000 in 1962/63 was based on earlier information which unfortunately was not brought as far up to date as the information in the note. The report of the ESB will be published any day now, and will show this surplus of £372,000 which is less than that in the previous financial year.

Deputy McGilligan asked about the nature of the surplus earned by the ESB. He is aware that the ESB are not supposed to make profits. They are supposed to play interest and principal on the money advanced to them and nothing more. In fact, they regulate their business so that, taking one year with another, income will equal expenditure. It is unreasonable to expect that in no single year there will be a surplus and there is a possibility that there will be a loss in a particular year.

There have been two years of surplus which has enabled the ESB to increase their reserve fund. There should be a considerable reserve fund in the ESB to enable them to deal with the position which occasionally arises when there might be an insufficient production from the hydro-generating stations because of weather, which has the result of abnormally increasing their costs. The ESB are aware that this reserve should be kept at a reasonable level, neither too high nor too low, and, in relation to their charges to the public, all these factors will be taken into account.

Questions were asked in regard to the relationship between the ESB and Bord na Móna. It is a fact that if all the electricity in this country came from hydro-generation and from oil-fired stations there would be some reduction in the cost of electricity but it is the policy of this Government to make use of all the turf resources we have available and to help the balance of payments position by making use of the natural resources of the country for the production of electricity.

Mr. Dillon

Can the Minister give us an estimate of that differential?

Mr. Childers

I am afraid I could not give an estimate. It would be impossible. If it is any satisfaction to Deputies, I can quote the figures for one limited year. The total cost of sending out electricity for 1963/64 was 1.071 pence per unit, including interest and capital repayments allocation, as compared with 1.082 pence in 1962/63. Therefore, there was actually a very small reduction between the financial year now ended and the previous year.

The cost of producing electricity from the milled peat stations is less than that from the sod peat stations. The new stations that are still under development by Bord na Móna will be for milled peat. The cost of electricity in this country, compared with other countries, is reasonable.

Mr. Dillon

Can the Minister not tell us the cost of electricity from the milled peat station and from the oil-fired station of contemporary design?

Mr. Childers

The cost from the three peat stations is 1.223 pence per unit and the cost from the oil-fired stations is .774 pence per unit.

Mr. Dillon

A difference of about .5 pence per unit?

Mr. Childers

Yes. Deputy Dillon in particular inquired in relation to the finances of the airports. They are published quite clearly in the Appropriation Accounts. Whenever I am asked, I reply to Parliamentary Questions and give the figures, of a simple kind, as suggested by Deputy Dillon. The final figures for the last year are not available but the figures for the previous year are available in the Appropriation Accounts and have been given in this House in reply to Parliamentary Questions.

It is unlikely that the airports will ever be profitable. It is interesting to note that some countries have a different way of preparing airport accounts. In the United States, they consider that air traffic control is equivalent to a policing operation and that it should not be debited to the airport account. That is also the case in some European airports. Equally, they consider that the weather service in relation to aviation is part of a national service and should not be debited to the airport account.

If we were to alter our system of accounts and to publish them according to the American principle, they would show fairly satisfactory results on the question of an operating deficit or surplus. Everything is done to provide for efficient and economic service at the airports. Work study principles are adopted where they are required. We have compared the cost of handling aircraft per movement with that in airports of a similar type abroad. While comparisons are very difficult to make, there is nothing that leads us to suppose that our costs are excessive. I would say that our airports are efficiently run.

I do not think there is any need at this stage to speak in detail with regard to replying to questions for my Department. I still ask Deputies to read the full statements which I have made in regard to this matter. I have made statements on a number of occasions on the position of the Department and my responsibility in relation to the Dáil. If Deputies would read what I said and, on the next occasion, analyse what I said, it would save a lot of trouble.

I should like to answer all the questions that are asked. I am well aware that it would be quite impossible to do so and that it would take away from the clear delegation of authority given to the State companies. As an example of this, questions were raised in regard to the power of CIE under the new Transport Bill to develop land. I was asked what kind of question would be answered. That would be a matter for the Ceann Comhairle to decide but the practical answer is what is required. If a question is asked which it is in the public interest to answer in the Dáil, I should take the attitude that, in regard to the planning by CIE of any new property development, they would have to be amenable to the local authority: they would have to lay their plans before the local authority. I should regard the local authority and the Minister for Local Government as having the ultimate responsibility.

If the Ceann Comhairle decided that the question could be answered, I should have to decide, myself, whether it was in the public interest to answer a question about the contemplated use of CIE property, having regard to the facts of the case, and whether it would encourage speculation, embarrass CIE or be likely to increase the price they would have to pay for development. I should have to consider whether it would make a fortune, small or great, for local people in the area. The House would have to trust my judgment. That applies to all matters concerning the transfer or purchase of property or the purchase of supplies by State companies.

I can only assure Deputies that if, for some extraordinary reason, I felt that a decision by any State company was very much against the public interest, or was a cause of scandal, the matter would be dealt with. It would depend on the circumstances. Just as I am content to leave with the Board of the ESB decisions in regard to tenders for generation and transmission, so I have to use my judgment whether, in the giving of information to Parliament, it would not be embarrassing to CIE or make a fortune for other people. It is a good example of the need for the Minister to exercise his judgment in relation to this matter.

On the Estimate, I make a great effort to reply to a very large number of the questions asked of me. I think we have a full debate on the Estimate. That is the best way in which complaints against State companies can be ventilated.

Mr. T. Lynch

You will have to wait a whole year before anything happens.

Question—"That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration"—put, and a division being demanded, it was postponed in accordance with the Order of the Dáil of 14th November, 1963, until 10.15 tonight.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.