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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 1964

Vol. 213 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - State Guarantees (Amendment) Bill, 1964: Second and Subsequent Stages.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. On 21st July, 1964 the Government made an order under the State Guarantees Act, 1954 entitled the State Guarantees Act, 1954 (Amendment of Schedule) (No. 2) Order, 1964, empowering the Minister for Finance to guarantee borrowings by Aer Lingus up to a maximum of £5 million. Having regard to its capital programme, it was considered necessary to put the Company in a position to borrow direct from commercial sources under a State guarantee. Such borrowing—provided the terms are reasonable—is to be encouraged as it reduces the amount to be provided by the Exchequer to Finance the State Capital Programme.

Aer Lingus is at present negotiating a loan on the New York market. The principal and repayment terms of the loan are expressed in dollars. The Law Officers have advised that having regard to the provisions of the Currency Act, 1927, guarantees under the State Guarantees Act, 1954 must be in Irish pounds because that Act does not provide explicitly for guarantees of borrowings made in any other currency. This Bill proposes to remedy this defect and will enable the Minister for Finance to guarantee foreign borrowing by any of the bodies scheduled to the principal Act. Aer Lingus is the only body at present negotiating such borrowing. All existing guarantees given under the principal Act are in respect of borrowings in Irish currency and are not affected by the Bill.

Section 2 of the Bill provides that the Minister for Finance may guarantee borrowings in a foreign currency by a Scheduled body.

Section 3 sets out the procedure for determining the foreign currency equivalents of the amounts specified in the Schedule to the 1954 Act and of the Irish currency equivalent of any payment in a foreign currency which the Minister for Finance may be called upon to make under a guarantee. The amounts specified in the Schedule fix the maximum amount of principal in Irish currency which may be guaranteed at any one time, and, in the case of foreign borrowing, the corresponding foreign currency equivalent will be determined by reference to the par rate of exchange ruling at the date on which the guarantee is given. Where the Minister for Finance may have to honour a guarantee in respect of a loan expressed in a foreign currency the amount of Irish currency required to meet the guarantee will be determined by reference to the rate of exchange ruling at the time the guarantee has to be met. I should point out that this means that in the event of a currency devaluation by this country the cost, in Irish currency, of meeting such a guarantee would increase and, conversely, would be less if a revaluation occurred. A similar situation would also arise if the foreign currency in which a guaranteed loan was expressed was either revalued or devalued.

Section 4 increases from £5 million to £6 million the amount of borrowing by Aer Lingus which may be guaranteed by the Minister for Finance. The Company is at present negotiating a loan for $15,000,000, equivalent to £5,357,143 in Irish currency. As the terms of the loan are reasonable it is desirable to increase the authorised amount which may be guaranteed by the Minister for Finance so as to enable the Company to avail of the full amount on offer.

I recommend the Bill to the House.

In relation to the provisions of this Bill to increase the total amount that may be guaranteed to Aer Lingus Teoranta from £5 million to £6 million, I have no objection or comment whatsoever to make. It is understood by all of us that the cost of aircraft that have to be purchased from time to time must be and is rising and, accordingly, it is necessary to meet that increase and that rise.

However, I must say that I do not accept the position in relation to section 2 in the naive way that the Minister has indicated. Section 2 in its present form is wholly undesirable. What section 2 means is that not merely Aer Lingus but any of the State bodies concerned may contract a foreign loan without the consent of Dáil Éireann in a particular instance. That is wholly undesirable. It is undesirable, I think the Minister would agree, that he would come to the House in relation to a foreign loan of any sort.

The original State Guarantees Act of 1954, which provided in its Schedule for six different State sponsored bodies, was for a total of approximately £18½ million. That amount has since been increased. Offhand, I do not know the total increase that has been made by amending legislation in relation to guarantees that may be given. I do not know whether the Minister has the total figure to his hand or not but, from recollection, there have been some substantial increases down through the years. Indeed, the figure for Aer Lingus of £6 million is not mentioned at all in the initial Schedule, so that the amount involved must be now at least £25 million and my recollection is that it is very much more substantial.

I do not think it is desirable that a State sponsored body and the Minister for Finance, without informing or getting the approval of the Dáil, should engage in foreign borrowing of a sizeable sum like that. I can certainly visualise the way in which Fianna Fáil would make the welkin ring if they were in Opposition and the Government of the day were making such a suggestion. To put it at its very minimum, there should be provision for an affirmative resolution by Dáil Éireann in the event of there being a foreign borrowing guaranteed under the provisions of section 2 of this Bill.

I am not suggesting for one minute that the purposes for which the borrowing might be made might not be excellent purposes; I am not suggesting for a minute that it would not be quite good commercial practice but away over and above commercial practice there is here involved a very fundamental question of policy in relation to foreign borrowing as a whole. I do not think it is right that the policy in relation to foreign borrowing should be, so to speak, by-passed in a scheme such as that now put forward by the Minister in relation to this Bill. I do not propose to debate the merits of another similar transaction now. I have no knowledge as to whether it was a good commercial transaction or not but I propose to return to the method of financing it on another occasion in this House. However, there is no doubt about one thing, that that transaction, the method of which I criticised at that time and will criticise again, was wholly opposed to the principal of financing by the authority of Dáil Éireann which we understand.

I believe it was wrong for the Minister for Finance to give his consent to a loan to a foreign power as he did in relation to Shipping Finance Corporation. The only body that should do that is Dáil Éireann. I believe it is just as wrong that it should be attempted, as it is attempted in this section, to provide that foreign borrowings can take place without the explicit consent of Dáil Éireann in the individual case. I would agree at once with the Minister that the power being sought in section 2 is not as objectionable as the other because at least the Minister is advising us in the Dáil that it is proposed to do this and we have advance knowledge to that effect. I think I would be excused, however, if I said the Minister was trying to introduce this to the House on the illogical argument of proceeding from the particular to the general.

There may be an excellent case in the present circumstances for Aer Lingus borrowing the amount that is involved in the New York market, $15,000,000, and there may be an excellent case for the Minister asking for authority to guarantee that specific loan in the New York market. What the Minister is asking us to do today is not merely to permit him to guarantee the Aer Lingus loan but to permit him, in addition, to guarantee any other purchase which, for example, Grain Importers, Tea Importers, Steel Holdings or the Potato Marketing Board might make in another country and to guarantee that no matter what may happen in regard to the devaluation of sterling.

I am glad the Minister set out in his statement a specific reference to what would occur if there was devaluation. It is only ten days since it looked very likely that there would be a devaluation of sterling. Some people believe that the danger of sterling devaluation has not even yet passed. The effect that devaluation in London would have on us here is something which we need not consider but it is something which would be, as I am sure the Minister will readily agree with me, very grave indeed.

We should not, therefore, take the opportunity because it is felt that a guarantee for one State body is desirable, of giving an omnibus or a blanket authority for the purpose. Aer Lingus, for example, is a body which by its very nature and by the essence of its operations earns substantial foreign exchange. It is a body which because of that earning is better equipped to deal with foreign borrowing than another body. I do not think the Minister, or any Minister for Finance for that matter, would give authority to the Potato Marketing Board to raise a loan in New York. The Minister will agree with me when I say it would be highly undesirable that it should do so. Why so frame the legislation, in that event, that it enables it to be done?

I know the tendency of draftsmen and of the Civil Service—and I do not mean this in any way as a criticism of the Civil Service at all—is to include always in a Bill the greater rather than the lesser. They naturally want to avoid having to come back to their Minister and to say afterwards: "We did not get authority for this or for that." I can understand the Civil Service approach and I do not say that in a critical way of the Civil Service because I think we are extraordinarily fortunate in the manner in which we— by "we" I do not mean Ministers or Deputies but the whole country—are served by the Civil Service. However, it is the natural Civil Service approach and it should be the natural approach both of the political head of the Department for the time being and of the Deputies in Dáil Éireann to curb such a wide general approach.

This is a specific instance in which it should be curbed. This is a specific instance in which, rather than the general power that is incorporated in section 2, there should be included in this Bill a specific power enabling the Minister to guarantee specific borrowing for which he can make the case, whereas in many other cases it would be quite impossible for him to make it.

I would urge the Minister to think again and to change the omnibus provision he has got in either of two ways: either to restrict it to the Aer Lingus borrowing we have here, or, alternatively, provide that, before such a guarantee can be given, an affirmative resolution must be passed in this House to permit the Minister to pledge the credit of the country in a guarantee other than our own.

The Minister said—and rightly—that allowing Aer Lingus itself to borrow reduces the amount to be provided by the Exchequer to finance the State capital programme and I think I would applaud that. I wonder is Aer Lingus under any obligation to say for what purpose the money is to be borrowed? I am sorry I was not here for the Minister's speech which I have here. I had assumed that when I came to the second page at least the Minister would have given us an idea of the capital programme in which Aer Lingus proposes to engage and for which it intends to borrow £5 million.

To deal first with Deputy Corish's question, naturally Aer Lingus had to make a case before the Minister would agree to give this guarantee. I may say I was rather pleased that the application of Aer Lingus was for a guarantee rather than for the money because in their earlier days they asked just for money. This was supplied by the Minister and although some of it was given by way of grant and some by way of loan, I do not think even the money given by loan is fully remunerative. Therefore, I am glad to see them looking after their own finances by borrowing money on this occasion. They did make the case of extra equipment required in the way of aeroplanes.

Is that the sole purpose of the loan, the purchase of aeroplanes?

Yes. As regards Deputy Sweetman's point, I agree with his anxiety on this score. I quite appreciate it but I think he need not worry. I was going to state how we stand in regard to guarantees under section 4 but I might as well do so now as the Deputy has raised the question. First, as the Deputy is aware, I cannot add any item to this list without getting the approval of the Dáil. We are, therefore, dealing only with the cases I mentioned which have already got the approval of the Dáil. The Irish Potato Marketing Board have approval for £150,000 but they have not asked for any guarantee so far. That is a comparatively small amount. The big item is St. Patrick's Copper Mines, almost £2 million. That guarantee has been honoured but in giving the consent at the time I could only give it for pounds and, therefore, that consent still stands. The same applies in the case of the Cork Opera House, £50,000. That is all that is involved except Aer Lingus. If we have to add anything else to the list, as Deputies are aware, I must come to the Dáil to have a resolution passed adding the new proposition. I should then, of course, as the Bill stands now, be obliged to tell Deputies whether it is being borrowed in pounds or some other currency and the Dáil would have an opportunity of objecting if they thought it was inadvisable to go to some other currency in the particular instance. We need not be unduly worried about the fears expressed by Deputy Sweetman. I think he is mixing up two bodies where loans are guaranteed. The loan to Shipping Finance is made by the Industrial Credit Company.

Do you not guarantee that?

Not under this Bill.

But under the principal Act?

Not under this. It is done by the Industrial Credit Company.

But is the Industrial Credit Company not scheduled under the 1954 Act?

No, that is different legislation.

I shall have to attack the Minister on a different basis.

We are not covering it here. I can, therefore, assure the Deputy there is nothing he need worry about so far as this is concerned because any new application will have to come before the Dáil.

Could not existing loans be taken over and changed into foreign borrowings?

I do not think so. Legally, I think the position is that if a guarantee were given it could only be given in pounds and that would remain for that time. I shall check that point.

Do I take it, that the Minister in his corporate capacity as Minister for Finance, states that there will not be another foreign borrowing without the Dáil being consulted?

That is right.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages to-day.
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