Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Feb 1965

Vol. 214 No. 4

Adjournment Debate. - Retail Price of Meat.

Mr. Byrne

Last Thursday I put a question to the Minister for Industry and Commerce regarding a matter of considerable topical importance in Dublin city at present, namely, the enormously high retail price of meat. I tabled the question to the Minister for Agriculture but it was transferred to the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

The retail price of meat in Dublin at present is scandalously high. Ordinary people can no longer afford to buy it. It has been priced off their table. In the face of that situation, the Minister gave me a meaningless reply referring me back to equally meaningless replies of 21st May and 5th March, 1964. When I asked him by way of supplementary question if he could hold out any prospect of alleviation of this appalling situation, he gave me what was, in effect, a negative reply.

Meat has been priced off the dinner tables of the ordinary people of this city, not only beef but mutton and pork. I have here a list of typical prices: mutton chops to-day were 5/10 per lb.; a year ago they were 2/8 to 3/10 per lb., that is, an increase of nearly 100 per cent. The staple diet of working people, minced steak, was selling to-day in Dublin at 3/10 per lb.; a year ago it was 2/6 per lb., that is, an increase of over 50 per cent. Pork chops—a very ordinary unextravagant dish in the past—were selling to-day at the fantastic price of 6/6 per lb.; a year ago they were 3/- to 3/6 per lb., another increase of virtually 100 per cent.

That is a situation which no reasonable person can condone and I feel obliged in conscience to protest with all possible vigour at the Government's inaction in the face of this development. It is due in part, and in part only, to boom conditions which exist in the livestock industry. May I say straight away that I welcome the boom prices which the farmers are obtaining for their cattle? I recognise, as every member of this Party recognises, the basic importance of the agricultural industry. I glory in the fact that there are now prospects for beef and mutton exports. The cattle trade, in particular, is of fundamental importance to our economy. If the farmers are prosperous, the entire country is prosperous.

It appears that in recent months the Belgians, the French and the Dutch have lost their traditional taste for horseflesh and now have hankerings for a superior type of meat. That means that my constituents in North-East Dublin have to compete with these wealthy foreigners for an essential item of their traditional diet. The increased retail price of meat in Dublin is quite disproportionate to the increase which the farmers have obtained for their cattle. I have no time to quote the full statistics but I am sure the Minister is as well aware as I am of the truth of what I am saying. What is the cause of that? I do not know. I have certain suspicions but it is the Minister's job to tell us here if he has investigated this disproportionate increase in the retail price of meat and, if so, to apportion the blame and to state further what he intends to do about it.

We are not prepared to tolerate a state of inertia in this regard. These increases call for Government investigation and action. Meat is much cheaper, 2/- to 3/- per lb. cheaper, in rural parts than it is in Dublin; yet the rural butchers have to pay virtually as much for their supplies as is paid in Dublin city. We must ask ourselves whether there are perhaps too many middle men battening on the consumers of fresh meat and on the cattle trade in general. It has been represented to me that a factor in the increase is that due to the public health laws virtually all meat in Dublin is now slaughtered in the abattoir, and butchers are no longer killing their own livestock. Whatever the cause, the fact is that the retail price of meat rarely if ever comes down, notwithstanding the reductions which take place from time to time in the price of cattle on the Dublin market.

We must take into account in this connection the preposterous situation that we are now, for the first time as far as I know, subsidising carcase beef exports, at a time when my constituents are unable to buy meat, working people in particular. This Fianna Fáil Government are not only paying foreigners to eat our butter but they are now paying them to eat our beef as well. This carcase beef subsidy about which I read in the papers a few weeks ago has apparently only been introduced as a transition measure. We have not been told what the cost of it is—that seems to be unknown—but it seems it is intended to be temporary. That being the case, it seems to me if the Government expects a reduction this year in cattle prices, it will result in reduction of meat prices and a similar transition should take place for the Dublin consumer.

As far as the Minister's reply to my question last week is concerned, the outlook for the future is pretty grim. I do not think we can hope for any alleviation because the Minister told me we can only hope for a reduction in meat prices if cattle prices drop. He does not seem to contemplate any stable price reduction or price support policy. From what I read in today's Financial Times, it seems quite unlikely that meat prices will drop on international markets. There is a world scarcity of meat, as the Minister knows, largely due to the drought in the Argentine two years ago.

Therefore, we are now faced with the fact that the Minister is complacently accepting this outrageous increase and is not prepared to do anything about it. It is certain prices will not come down unless the Government take action. I suppose in the ordinary course of supply and demand increased demand will result in increased production and I suppose it is Government policy to increase production. That takes time, as with prices, and in the cattle trade, it would be a period of three to four years. This lack of concern about the vicious increase in the cost of meat is only one aspect of Fianna Fáil slaphappy policy of complacency in regard to this cost-of-living increase.

I cannot believe that the Minister properly appreciates the hardship which many people in this city are undergoing at the present time, due to the increase in the cost of living. It has rocketed beyond all reasonable limits. It is higher in this country than in Britain, where the state of prosperity is much more advanced than here. It is in a large extent due, in addition to the factors I have mentioned, to the inflation initiated by this Government when they introduced the turnover tax last November 12 months.

We are entitled to, and demand, an explanation from the Minister for this increase in a fundamental commodity of our people. We are entitled to demand that there shall be no lessening of our standard of living and no lessening of our consumption of meat in our agricultural country. We should be able to afford it. We should not be expected to pay the same price as the Americans and the French, and those who in the past have eaten horse flesh, are now prepared to pay for prime meat. It seems to me the Minister has a lot to answer for. He is unable to answer the questions I put to him as to what action he will take and I suggest he should give this matter immediate consideration.

Mr. Ryan

One would expect that in an agricultural country such as ours, with a high ratio in agricultural productivity and with tremendous agricultural potentiality in the natural resources of the country, that butter and meat would be the staple diet of the working people in our relatively small towns and cities. But the Fianna Fáil policy of subsidising these commodities for the foreigner and making them dearer for the Irish people has meant that tens of thousands of Dublin families never see butter on the table, consuming instead margarine which is made of imported oils, and those families who up to now were fortunate enough on a few days a week to enjoy some meat now find themselves because of the policies of the Government, both price control policy and agriculture policy, without any taste of meat at all except such as is afforded to them by putting a penny meat cube into the pot when cooking the potatoes. Were it not for these meat cubes, there are many Dublin families who would not know the taste of meat at all.

It is unfortunate that city people, people with an urban outlook, do not concern themselves more with agricultural policies because the basic reason for the appalling increase in prices of meat in Dublin lies in the fact that there is not sufficient meat available to provide it at reasonable prices. The reason for this is the appalling failure of the Fianna Fáil Government in the department of agriculture. Were it not for their failure in agricultural matters, there would be a reasonable amount of meat available to meet the not unreasonable demands of people in Ireland for meat. It is quite clear that a greater output of beef and mutton is required and I do not think we are going to get that under the present administration.

Be that as it may, and it is the kernel of the difficulty, Deputy Byrne has rightly drawn attention to the fact that the increase in the retail price of meat in Dublin is not in keeping as the Minister suggests with increases which farmers are enjoying for their beasts. I think the price of meat on the hoof has increased by some 25 per cent in recent times. No one can deny the farmers a better price for beef on the hoof, as only in this way will we have sufficient stimulus to increase production. The fact remains that while the producer is receiving only 25 per cent increase, Dublin housewives are paying anything from 33? to 50 per cent increase.

Mr. Byrne

One hundred per cent in some cases.

Mr. Ryan

I am taking the last two or three months. Certainly over the past year prices have risen sharply. But the increases in the past few months are 33, 35 and 40 per cent on prices that have to be paid for what ought to be the staple diet of the family.

It is true to say, as Deputy Byrne has said, that there has been considerable change in the mode of slaughter and marketing of meat in Dublin. There was a time when the animals were purchased on the hoof by the small butcher who slaughtered them himself and made the beef available to his customers. Now a new ring has developed and it would seem there is some degree of price-fixing. Butchers are now forced to slaughter in the abattoirs and a ring has been created which the Minister refuses to investigate. We think that is undesirable and we beg the Minister that, as he broke the ring that tried to increase petrol prices, he should also break the ring that appears to exist, and is growing, in the meat markets in Dublin, so that something will be done to protect the consumer in Dublin against the unreasonable increases prevailing.

Deputy Byrne mentioned a subsidy which is being provided for carcase meat. This subsidy has been attacked by producers and exporters here because they contend it will have serious effects on the export market.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are ten minutes left for the Minister to reply.

Mr. Ryan

The Minister, on the facts as he knows them and with the arguments put before him by us, ought to intervene to protect the consumer.

Minister for Industry and Commerce (Mr. J. Lynch)

It is a good job I have the facts as I know them, so that I shall not let Deputies Byrne and Ryan away with those exaggerated and unfounded allegations about 100 per cent increases in prices of meat in Dublin.

Mr. Byrne

Mutton chops.

Mr. J. Lynch

I have kept silent and did not interrupt the Deputies. I think this is a blatant case of political opportunism on the part of Deputies Ryan and Byrne. Both have spoken with their tongues in their cheek. They know the price of meat must be related to the price paid for cattle. They know well that it is not practicable to control prices, particularly the price of meat. Deputy Byrne knows his own Party are committed to the policy of free competition as being the best and the most effective means of price control. He knows also, as a man who, I suppose, studied economics in the course of his degree, that while cattle prices are high the price of meat must also be high. It was not unnatural that he should put down a question on this subject a week ago but I suggest it is for no other reason but to seek political Party advantage to raise it on the Adjournment a week later.

Everybody knows the price of cattle increased on the Dublin market by 41 per cent between November, 1963, and February, 1965. The average price of six or seven cuts of beef in ordinary demand rose by about 16.4 per cent between mid-November, 1963, and mid-November, 1964. I acknowledge that these figures are not up to date so far as current prices are concerned.

I had these prices investigated in no fewer than 75 butchers' shops in Cork and Dublin. I know that the price of the various cuts between November, 1964, and the current date increased by about five pence, six pence or eight pence per pound. The prices varied from 5/6 to 8/- per lb in the case of sirloin steak and 3/8 to 5/- for chuck roast. How can Deputy Byrne, with his knowledge of accountancy, say there has been an increase of 100 per cent in those prices? I know how he does it. He takes the lowest price possible in one butcher's shop and the highest price possible in another.

Mr. Byrne

I compare like with like.

Mr. J. Lynch

I am comparing like with like and I am comparing those figures——

Mr. Byrne

I have given the figures which the Dublin housewife pays.

Mr. J. Lynch

Deputy Byrne puts forward no remedy. He mentioned that meat factories in Dublin and throughout the country were being subsidised and that was his sole contribution.

Mr. Byrne

If you subsidise the foreigner, you can subsidise your own.

An Ceann Comhairle

Order.

Mr. J. Lynch

The subsidisation is for the sake of preserving employment in our meat processing factories. What action does Deputy Byrne suggest?

Mr. Byrne

A subsidy.

Mr. J. Lynch

Does Deputy Byrne suggest, by deliberate action, we should depress the price paid to farmers by the factory? The Deputy should ask Deputy Clinton if he would agree with that policy.

Mr. Byrne

I made no such suggestion.

Mr. J. Lynch

Why has the Deputy not the manners to listen to what I have to say?

Mr. Byrne

I will learn no manners from Fianna Fáil.

Mr. J. Lynch

With regard to price control, let me quote what was said when the prices Bill, 1957, was being debated in this House in October, 1957. Deputy Cosgrave, who was the chief speaker, on the Second Stage stated at column 125, volume 164 of the Official Report:

I agree, to a considerable extent, with the view that competition is the most effective method of price control. In fact, I doubt if in present circumstances, there is any faith in the effectiveness of price control in this country.

Later in column 126 he says:

I suppose experience has taught Deputies on both sides of the House but it is possible that both sides have contributed to the illusion that prices can be controlled by Government action or by some statutory authority. Experience in recent years, however, has demonstrated that, with occasional exceptions, that it is not so. In fact, experience of wartime and emergency conditions has shown that with the exception of the special circumstances pertaining to wartime or emergency conditions and then only in relation to goods which are either rationed or within the control of the Government, it is not possible to make price control effective.

How does Deputy Byrne suggest the price of meat, which is one of the most difficult of all commodities to control, can be controlled effectively? How does he suggest that can be done in view of what the Prices Advisory Body, which was supported by Deputy Byrne's Party, said in 1956. I quote:

They recommended that statutory price control on fresh meat should not be introduced for the following reasons.

(a) the meat trade is so complex as to make it extremely difficult to formulate an equitable system of control;

(b) fresh meat is at present available at a wide range of prices for the same cuts, (presumably because of variation in quality);

(c) there is evidence of competition between victuallers in the main population centres, inasmuch as meat is available at a variety of prices;

(d) the financial accounts of victuallers examined in the Department show that the profit margin is small;

(e) any attempt to fix maximum prices would militate against the consumer.

The inter-Party Minister for Industry and Commerce confirmed that. In reply to a question in the Dáil on 28th June, 1956 regarding the retail price of meat he said he was satisfied that intervention by him in this matter would not be in the best interests of the consumer. That is something I have been advocating time and time again. In respect of the 70 odd investigations carried out, the inspectors reported that for the same cuts of meat in the same street in Dublin the prices per pound varied as much as 1/6d. Every housewife knows that on every butcher's block there is a variety of cuts and for each cut there is a variety of quality. How then can you control the cut of meat and the quality of meat by fixing certain maximum prices?

Any Deputy can see, by glancing at the price tags in any butcher's window, the tremendous variety of prices there is for different cuts and even for the same cut. Deputy Byrne knows well in the area in which he lives, Rathmines, that prices vary from shop to shop. In the shopping centre of Rathmines, you could hardly walk, literally, yards, without coming up against butchers' shops, all in keen competition with one another and all having different prices for the same type of meat. If the Deputy is not satisfied with that, let him take a walk down Moore Street and look at the butchers' shops there. He will see there is a tremendous variety in prices for the same cuts of meat.

When Deputy Byrne and Deputy Ryan go to mid-Cork for the byelection, I invite them to take a walk through the Corporation Meat Market, which extends from Grand Parade to Prince's Street. They will see there possibly the greatest concentration of meat on retail sale in Europe. This meat market consists of scores of butchers' stalls, all in competition with one another. I know the majority of the butchers personally and I know some of them are finding it difficult to make ends meet, having regard to the prices they have to pay for cattle. I can assure Deputy Byrne and Deputy Ryan there is keen competition and the butchers are trying to sell meat at the lowest possible price that will attract and hold their customers and give them a fair return. Suffice it to say that the suggestion in regard to subsidisation is not feasible in present circumstances. Subsidisation was condemned by all sides of the House when it was first mentioned. It was regarded as being a device which should be used only in times of national emergency such as we had in the last war. The Deputies know well it is impossible to effectively control the price of fresh meat. They have subscribed to the policy that competition provides the best control of prices and I do not think anyone can deny there is very keen competition in the retailing of fresh meat.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 18th February, 1965.