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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Feb 1965

Vol. 214 No. 5

Adjournment Debate. - Poultry Production.

I feel constrained to take up the time of the House in view of the unsatisfactory nature of the reply given to me yesterday by the Minister for Agriculture in answer to my question on the development of the poultry industry.

As you are aware, Sir, it was generally agreed by all that until recent years the poultry industry was very important in rural Ireland and, indeed, a very profitable industry for many of our people, particularly small farmers, cottiers, and others who engaged in it. This industry also gave a good deal of self-employment to many of our women folk. As one who was very conversant with the poultry industry in west Cork, I can vouch for the fact that in a big number of cases the income from the poultry industry to small farmers and others would be from 25 per cent to 30 per cent of their total gross income.

Unfortunately, the industry declined and, despite various agitations by agricultural bodies, and particularly committees of agriculture, and others interested in the poultry industry, no headway was made. We got the excuse from this Government in particular, and from the Minister's predecessor, that there was no export market, and no outlet for our poultry or poultry products, and consequently there was little to be done about it so far as the State was concerned. That continued year after year. In his Estimate presented to the House on 11th June, the then Minister for Agriculture, Deputy Smith, dismissed this industry with a few remarks. He referred to the type of people in whom I am interested, the traditional poultry producers throughout the country, and said:

There is, unfortunately, no sign of any distinct improvement in the conditions which for many years now have made it difficult to develop the eggs and poultry industries.

The then Minister said that unfortunately there was no improvement and, as a result of that statement, and other statements by Government spokesmen, the people who had held on, even though the industry was uneconomic having regard to the prices prevailing, in the hope that they would get back on their feet sometime, naturally more or less said to themselves: "This industry is gone. There is little use in holding on because we have not an economic price in any line in the industry."

When the Minister made his first statement on agriculture to the House —a comprehensive survey of our agricultural industry—and omitted to mention the poultry industry, we took it for granted that he was following the lines of his predecessor, that there was nothing to be added to that statement, and that he had more or less affirmed the belief of his predecessor that the poultry industry was dead, and there was little use wasting time talking about it.

On 24th November I was seeking information as to why he omitted any mention of this industry and, by way of interruption, the Minister said: "I do very well out of hens myself." That stunned me, and stunned many people throughout the country, because there are very few people—and I know many people from one end to the other of the country—who can say as the Minister said on 24th November: "I do very well out of hens myself." He said it with a kind of a sneer and a jeer as much as to say: "Everyone could do just as well as I am doing if they adopted my methods."

At that time the Minister told us about his actual profits. He told us he had got 2,000 hens on a farm in Raheny and made £874 from them. He also told us he was not selling the eggs produced by those 2,000 hens to any private concern, that he had no particular market, and that he had not a hatchery farm. He implied quite definitely that he was selling eggs in the same way as any ordinary producer would sell them.

I did not.

That statement was misleading, false and untrue.

I never said any such thing. You are quoting an implication.

Do not take up my 20 minutes. I will give you your ten minutes. Naturally the Minister was bragging about it.

The Deputy is looking for an implication but he will not find one in the Official Report.

I shall quote from the Official Report. I remarked that I could not understand how such figures could be correct unless the Minister had a special secret market available to him. The report continues:

There is no secret about it. I invite the Deputy to come out and have a look.

Mr. M.P. Murphy: Will the Minister tell us at what price he sells the eggs?

Mr. Haughey: I sell them in County Dublin.

Mr. M.P. Murphy: Would it be a hatchery farm that you have?

Mr. Haughey: It is no hatchery farm; I sell eggs.

Mr. M.P. Murphy: For home consumption?

Mr. Haughey: I sell eggs.

I asked did the Minister supply a private firm such as Gateaux and the Minister denied it.

Will the Deputy give the column and date?

Columns 46 and 47 of the Official Report of 24th November, 1964. The Minister gave a press release a few weeks afterwards. Of course I know what he was trying to get across. The people throughout the length and breadth of the country felt that the Minister knew nothing about agriculture—many of them still feel he knows nothing about agriculture, or very little about it—and he was trying to get it across to the people that he had been in poultry for three years and was so capable and efficient that he was able to make a profit of £874 out of 2,000 hens. In his press release the Minister said he had a special market and his farm was a hatchery supply farm, which he had denied in the House on 24th November.

I did not.

A supplier of eggs to a hatchery is deemed to have a hatchery farm.

I have a supply farm, not a hatchery. That is different.

It is not different.

It is different. The Deputy knows nothing about it.

I am as familiar with those terms as you are.

The Deputy does not understand the first thing about it.

You have a hatchery supply farm and, as well as that, you are in a tremendously advantageous position compared with those I represent, the traditional producers.

I never denied that.

You are in a tremendously advantageous position.

Will the Deputy please use the word "Minister" rather than the word "you"?

I am sorry. The Minister was in a very advantageous position. As his press release stated he had a contract to sell eggs to a very reputable firm of dealers in Ireland—a reputable firm which has apparently a good export market. I know very well that these people regarded the Minister as a very valued customer and were very anxious that he would get sufficient remuneration from his hens to praise the industry. As a business firm, it is quite true to say that these people—and more luck to them—were anxious to extend their activities but they were anxious, too, to get big State aid to help them—in fact, I think State aid to the extent of six figures. It is pleasing to know that they got this aid but it must be rather embarrassing in some way for a Minister to get concessions in his private capacity, I am sure that is the reasonable term——

It is not.

——from a firm who are actively agitating for a substantial subvention from State funds towards the development of their industry.

That is a despicable allegation and the Deputy knows it.

It is a statement of fact. Compare, then, Mrs. Murphy down the country in West Cork with the Minister.

Is that your own wife?

What market has she? Surely it is his obligation. as Minister for Agriculture, not to say: "I am all right. I am getting a good profit"? Is it not his first job to see after the welfare of the producers and particularly those who have been engaged in the business for years so that they would get a market which is not available at the present time and which the Minister's predecessor said as recently as 11th June last was unlikely to become available in the foreseeable future? Surely it is the Minister's obligation to develop the industry and surely the way to do so is to ensure markets for the products produced?

The Minister said here in his reply yesterday that poultry producers can improve their production methods by availing themselves of the advisory services, grants and so on. Poultry producers know all about this aspect of the business. They have availed of the advisory services and of the very small grants which are available to the small producers by the county committees of agriculture and the Department. Their difficulty, however, is to find a market.

Everybody knows that the market for turkeys, poultry and eggs here in Ireland is limited. We now find the traditional producer being wiped out and the hobby farmer, such as the Minister, coming along and cornering that limited market. I think that is grossly unfair. The Minister is cashing in on the position that is obtaining, with the traditional producers going out of business because they have not the big capital, such as the Minister had, to establish a poultry farm. The Minister and other speculators are coming in and taking over. Undoubtedly, when the traditional producers are wiped out, the Minister and other speculators will reap the benefit on sales. The consumer will have to look sharp, as well, because I am sure that when the traditional producer has gone out of business, and when this monopoly will be established and we have these hobby farms, and so on, the price of all poultry products will increase.

It is pleasing to know that a limited number of traditional producers did succeed in making the business reasonably remunerative—and when I say "a limited number" I would not put it at more than three per cent of the traditional producers. In some cases, the others had not the capital and in other cases they were well aware, from statements and advice given to them, that if they were likely to develop a business a market would not be available.

I disapprove completely of the Ministers' attitude and of the attitude of other people like him who have cashed in on this industry and on the limited market available and who, so to speak, have taken the bite from the mouths of the small traditional producers, the people I mentioned already, mainly small farmers, cottiers' wives and others who are trying to make a few pounds profit weekly on this industry. If the poultry industry were so profitable that he made this big amount of money, why did the Minister not make a public statement on the matter in the House and at any of the meetings he held up to the time I raised it? Why was he keeping it a secret? He went along to the pilot areas and asked them to produce plans that would develop the small holdings in the district.

I announced it here the first time I spoke in this House on agriculture.

It was dragged from the Minister. He did not announce it.

I announced it.

The Minister never announced the matter until I dragged it from him.

I volunteered the information on the first occasion I came into this House to talk on agriculture.

The Minister never mentioned the poultry industry. This is no joke. The Minister may be treating it as a joke, like yesterday when he was sneering and jeering at it. However, it is not a joke as far as I am concerned or as far as the people I represent are concerned or as far as the many thousands of poultry producers throughout the length and breadth of this country are concerned. They feel very strongly on this matter because they themselves are being let go out of business whilst the man in charge is coming into business with sweepingly big profits, if his figures are correct and I shall not question them.

I am glad of that.

Accepting that his figures are correct, the Minister is coming into the industry and making big profits while others have to leave the industry to the Minister and to people like him. It is not easy. What farmer or cottier has £3,000 to put into this industry—only people such as the Minister who have other jobs and other big incomes and who are carrying on this work as a sideline only. I shall refer briefly to the Minister's invitation to me to visit his poultry farm in view of his statement that it is not a hatchery farm and that he has no special market for his eggs. Despite the fact that his farm is contiguous to Dublin City and the markets therein, I was surprised to learn that he could make that much money on his hens. The Minister did not offer that assurance——

I was waiting for the Deputy this morning. I had a cup of tea ready for him.

He asked me when it would suit me to come and I said that Wednesday would suit me. The Minister then said he was going to Bandon and I never heard from him since. He sent out 250,000 messages, at public expense, to farmers and surely he could have sent me a card asking me to visit his farm?

Did I not speak to the Deputy in the restaurant?

The Minister said I could not go out because he was engaged with other business—attending a dinner, I think, of a Fianna Fáil cumann.

That is a falsehood.

I have been in Dublin several times since the Dáil closed for the Christmas Recess. I did not think there was any obligation on me to trot around after the Minister. His newspaper release if you like, to a good extent, gave me a good deal of the information I would have got had I visited his farm. The Minister's job is to help the traditional producer——

I am doing that.

——and make a detailed statement of policy in view of the statements of his predecessor. He should not be cornering the market for himself and his well-to-do friends.

That is a good note on which to conclude.

A nice, scurrilous note to finish on. First of all, I am glad the Deputy now accepts the profitability of my own operation as outlined by me. My hens were very upset by his suspicion that they might not be doing as well as I said they were and they were anxious I should vindicate their performance. The suggestion that I may in some way be coming into a business and squeezing out traditional suppliers is, of course, completely false, malicious and misleading. I was in the poultry business long before I became Minister for Agriculture, indeed long before it was ever suspected I might ultimately become Minister for Agriculture.

The situation in the poultry trade is that because of developments in Britain and elsewhere, the position of the traditional supplier about whom Deputy Murphy speaks—the small farmer who kept some farmyard poultry—has deteriorated. In fact, it is true to say that in the poultry business nowadays it is necessary, if one wishes to make a profit, to go into it in a very specialised way. My Department have recognised that fact and have developed a number of schemes to help farmers to get into the poultry trade in a profitable way. We make grants available for the erection of suitable housing; we have permitted the importation of special strains of stock from Britain and America; and the situation now is that if a person wants to go into the poultry business along the lines my Department recommend and suggest, we help them to do so and there is a reasonable guarantee that they can do a good job and make a reasonable profit.

Ultimately, the situation appears to be that in present circumstances and as far as we can visualise for the foreseeable future, the entire traditional method of rearing poultry in the farmyard will not be a profitable enterprise. It is our aim that as many people as possible will change over and go into the poultry business in this modern, efficient manner with assistance from my Department and with the aid of the schemes administered by the various county committees of agriculture. I am amazed at Deputy Murphy. He comes from a county which is traditionally a poultry county and it is his duty as a Deputy representing that constituency to keep abreast of the latest developments in the poultry industry. When I told him in the House of my particular interest in poultry and the profitability of my particular enterprise, he was astounded, astonished.

The Minister denied it was a hatchery farm.

Therefore, apparently he knows nothing of these modern methods, of these modern developments in the poultry industry. If he knew anything about them he would be conscious of the fact that my personal results are not particularly good —that there are people all over the country, even in his own constituency, who do far better because they can devote more time to it than I can and because they know their business better. Indeed the reaction of anybody in the business who read the previous discussion on this subject was that I was not doing as well out of roughly 2,000 birds as I should be. Deputy Murphy is neglecting his duty to his constituency, neglecting his responsibility to his constituents, by not keeping abreast of these developments.

The Minister denied that he was selling to a hatchery, not in a commercial way. He was misleading the House.

I did not mislead the House, as the records will show. I personally operate a supply farm. I sell the eggs which reach hatching standard to the hatchery. The others I have to dispose of on the ordinary commercial market. This type of development is being availed of more and more by farmers throughout the country. I recommend it to the Deputy. I advise him to study the possibilities and, instead of coming in here with this partisan type of approach to secure some petty political advantage——

That is my job here.

——I suggest to him that he would be doing his business as a Deputy representing his constituency if he studied these schemes, showed his constituents how they can get into the business and make a profit.

My constituents are aware of the hatchery side of the business—a relatively small side.

We are also, in the Deputy's county, endeavouring now to bring to fruition a scheme which we hope will be of considerable advantage to a number of the small, traditional farmers in that area. With the aid of An Foras Tionscal and other bodies, we are trying to get an operation going there which will provide the people with a very useful income and, at the same time, provide the country with a valuable export. As Deputy Murphy will probably be misrepresenting that particular venture also, I want to take this opportunity of saying that that programme for west Cork will be 100 per cent an export one.

I have dealt with that in the County Committee of Agriculture.

To suggest that it will go into competition with existing poultry businesses in west Cork is completely false because the grants are being made available specifically on the basis that the industry will be 100 per cent an export one. I have said that the situation for the traditional farmyard poultry rearer at the present time is difficult and does not seem to offer any great possibilities for the future, but, in so far as any farmer, whether a traditional poultry farmer or not, wants to get into this more modern and specialised type of project, my Department are anxious and willing to help them in every way possible.

In conclusion, may I say that I resent very bitterly the suggestion by Deputy Murphy that I did not honour my invitation to him to come out to see my project? I understood at all times that the invitation was there, that he was welcome to avail of it at any time he had the opportunity of doing so. It is still available.

Do not bring that in now. I accept it was there.

If he does not wish to come in and see me, he can look across the hedge from the public road.

I have no intention of doing so.

There is a word to describe that suggestion but it is far too unparliamentary.

The Dáil adjourned at 5.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 23rd February, 1965.

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