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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Mar 1965

Vol. 214 No. 8

Committee on Finance. - Vote 43—Defence.

Tairgim:

Go ndeonófar suim nach mó ná £6,959,800 chun slánaithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1966, le haghaidh Tuarastail agus Costais Oifig an Aire Cosanta, lena n-áirítear Seirbhísí áirithe atá faoi riaradh na hOifige sin; le haghaidh Pá agus Costais Óglaigh na hÉireann; agus chun Deontas-i-gCabhair a íoc.

Tá an focal "cosaint" débhríoch againne, Eireannaigh, na laethe seo is a rá nach bhfuil muid ag fanacht go mbí ina cogadh ach siud chun siúil muid gach uair da n-iarrann Na Náisiúin Aontaithe orainn a bheith i bpáirt leo ar son na síochána abhfad i gcéin.

Da bhféadfaí a rá linn aimsear an Chongo nár chosnaigh ár gcabhair tada airgid ní h-amhlaidh atá i dtaobh na Cipire a bhfuil a costas sin ar fad ar an tír seo, mar chruthaionn an tsuim airgid breise a bhfuil iarrta ar an Dáil a sholáthair, chun criche an fheachtais Chiprigh.

Muna n-eireoidh leis an iarracht síochánta, sí an chine daonna a bhéas thíos leis. Sin í an am a thiocfas chun cruinnis níos géire ná riamh an brí eile atá leis an bhfocal "cosaint". Níor ghá gur chosaint in aghaidh ionsaí armtha a bheadh le deanamh againn, cé gurb é sin céad raison d'etre na bhFórsaí Cosanta seo againne. Ní h-eadh ar bith. Da dtosaití cogadh le h-adamacht ar an toirt, bheadh fíorchontúirt beagnach ar an teallach orainn ó thús ón as-titim adamach.

Ba mhaith liom tagradh do thaobh sin an chosaint baile is teallaigh. Tá sé le tabhairt faoi deara le tamall anall go rabh suim inti da múscailt níos scaipiúla. Tharla borradh faoi leith faoin gceist nuair hóbar a bheith ina chogadh agus Cuba ina cnámh spáirne idir na Cumhachtaí. Ariamh ó shoin facthas dom go rabh níos mó le feiceál, le cloisteáil agus le sonrú i dtaobh na seirbhíse nuaí seo. Is breá meanmnach daoine, idir óg, níos sine ná óg agus meanaosta agus a mbíonn dothain le deanamh aca cheana ag tabhairt suas a gcuid scíthe ag foghlaim agus ag cleachtú i riocht is go mbeadh sciath cosanta idir an chomharsain agus an anachain. Is gnó gach duine ar mhaithe leis féin réidhchean roimh an uafás. Is gearr go mbí leabhrán eolais da dháileadh ar gach teach agus beidh sé suas do gach ceann tí é féin agus a chúram a chur ar an eolas i dtaobh céard ba chóir dóibh a dheanamh i gcoinne na h-astitime.

Taobh amuigh de chúinsí chogaidh, tá sé cruthaithe ag Cosaint Sibhialta gur mór an chabhair is féidir léí a thabhairt don chomharsain atá sainnithe ag tubaistí eile.

The Estimate for Defence for 1965/ 1966 is for a net sum of £10,440,700, which is an increase of £925,200 over the amount voted for the financial year 1964/65, not taking into account the Supplementary Estimate of £1,954,600 for that financial year about which I shall be speaking later. In other words, the Estimate is £1,029,400 lower than the total amount required for 1964/65. In saying this, however, I must not mislead the House. If the Cyprus operation should continue into 1965/66 —the present United Nations mandate expires on 26th March next— additional money will be required for the payment of the allowance associated with overseas services, and that will also be the case with regard to the revised pay scales for the Defence Forces which I shall mention when speaking about the Supplementary Estimate for 1964/65. No provision has been made for those two matters in the Estimate for 1965/1966, so that I am afraid that a substantial Supplementary Estimate will be necessary later on. The Estimate, I may add, is based on an average strength of 1,143 officers, 82 cadets and 7,000 other ranks.

Since the Estimate for 1964/1965 was debated, the last Irish unit to serve with the United Nations Force in the Congo returned home—in May, 1964. From the time the initial request of the Secretary General of the United Nations was received by the Government in June, 1960, no fewer than 5,273 officers and men of Na Buan Óglaigh served in the 12 units and in the Headquarters staff elements which made up the Irish contingents of the Force over a period of almost four years. Some of the personnel mentioned served on more than one occasion, giving a total of 6,335 separate periods of service. Bearing in mind the size of our armed forces and the size of the country, our contribution must rank as proportionately one of the highest made to the United Nations. Our thanks are due to all the thousands of our men who volunteered to serve the cause of the United Nations and who served that cause so faithfully and so well in the Congo. I think it is a wonderful tribute to the spirit of the Defence Forces that every time a unit was being organised, more than enough volunteers were available. Our renewed sympathy is extended to the families and relatives of the 26 gallant members of our contingents who died in the service of peace, and we hope that their sacrifice will not have been in vain. We should not forget, either, the many who were wounded in action and who have had in some cases to tread the difficult path of rehabilitation and resettlement.

In thanking the Government for the contribution made by this country to the Force in the Congo, the Secretary General of the United Nations, speaking in relation to our soldiers, said: "In their service in the Congo, they have faced many forms of difficulty and danger and have always had to exercise the severest restraint and understanding, no matter how great the provocation or how ominous the risk. In performing their unusual and demanding duties in the Congo, they have been pioneers in international peace-keeping and have written a new and most important chapter in the history of this art."

The resolution to contribute troops to the United Nations Force in Cyprus was debated in the House last April and Deputies will be aware of our continuing commitments in the field of peace-keeping. Indeed it happened that, for a short period last year, we had contingents serving in Cyprus and the Congo simultaneously, while we also had, and continue to have, a number of officers serving in the United Nations Truce Supervision Organisation in Palestine. Last April, a battalion of 600 men and a small number of staff for the Headquarters of the United Nations Force were sent to Cyprus. Not long afterwards the Secretary-General called for a further Irish unit, and when our commitments in the Congo ended this unit of 400 men was also supplied. Since August last we have, therefore, had a contingent of something over 1,000 men with the United Nations Force there.

The difficult situation in that troubled country is so well known that it requires no description by me. It underlines, however, the hazardous task with which our troops were faced and the necessity for the exercise by them of strict impartiality in their dealings with the people of Cyprus. I am happy to say that all the reports I have received indicate that the Irish units are doing a fine job. Discipline and morale are of a very high standard and the health of the troops is excellent. Over the past five years, the Army has built up a tradition of service in peace-keeping operations which has brought credit to our troops and to the nation.

Our Defence Forces have, since the end of the last emergency, been relatively small. The contribution made to the United Nations placed an added burden of duty on the staffs and men at home. This added work was accepted cheerfully and executed efficiently and this in itself stands as one of the greatest tributes to the morale and stability of the Defence Forces. Not the least difficult task was the maintenance of efficient training arrangements for An Fórsa Cosanta Áitiúil. The FCA and its naval counterpart, An Slua Muiri, make up two-thirds of our total strength, and the personnel of these voluntary bodies deserve our admiration and respect. I would encourage them, and like them encouraged, to avail of the facilities afforded by week-end and annual training camps to maintain their standard of efficiency.

It is my pleasant duty again to express my appreciation of the publicspirited activities of many individuals and firms who organised and provided comforts for our troops overseas. The organisers of this valuable work came together spontaneously when the Congo operation started in 1960. Since then their efforts have never ceased nor has their enthusiasm flagged. By their work they provide a valuable channel through which persons and firms who so desire can express, in a practical way, their appreciation of and goodwill towards our troops overseas.

At home, normal activities continued in many and various ways, to some of which the House would no doubt like me to refer particularly. A third helicopter was received, and the Helicopter Service was fully operational throughout the last year. The primary purpose of the helicopters is to carry out air/sea rescue work and to render assistance as may be required in other emergencies. This primary function must take precedence over any other use. Negotiations are however, at present being conducted with the Department of Health with a view to the establishment of a helicopter ambulance service for conveying emergency medical cases, such as brain injury and spinal injury cases, from outlying hospitals to Dublin hospitals. The helicopters have also been used on a few occasions for spotting purposes in fishery protection, but their use in this sphere is limited since they cannot make an arrest or fix the position of foreign fishing vessels with the accuracy required by the courts. Deputies may be interested to know that in the last year, for sea/air rescue purposes, the Service was alerted on 16 occasions, carried out twelve searches and made two actual rescues. Other missions included bringing a patient to hospital, ferrying medical equipment and quite a large number of demonstrations.

While speaking about the helicopter service, I may say that a major problem facing the Air Corps is the difficulty of retaining experienced technicians in service. There is a great demand for these technicians in outside employment, because of the excellent training they receive, and in 1964, the Corps lost 92 technicians, as against an apprentice intake of 39. I have drawn attention in previous years to the worthwhile openings provided by the Apprentice Training Schools at Naas and Baldonnel, which are recognised by the trade unions to the extent that personnel trained and qualified under these schemes may be accepted as journeymen and, on return to civil life, admitted as trade union members. I would like to see young people taking every advantage of these valuable schemes.

The Naval Service continued its fishery protection duties during the year but, due to the shortage of key personnel to man the vessels, it is possible to keep only one vessel operational. Here again, recruitment is not keeping pace with wastage. The extension of fishing limits provided for in the Maritime Jurisdiction (Amendment) Act, 1964, raises the whole question of the adequacy of our fishing protection service. This question is being very thoroughly investigated, but it is one to which there is no easy solution.

The scheme for the training of pilots for Aer Lingus is continuing at Gormanston Camp, and the third trainee class commenced training in December last. Another scheme which is progressing well is that for the training of young fishermen at Haulbowline, where they are accommodated and learn subjects such as seamanship and navigation, in conjunction with further instruction at Cobh Technical School. The scheme is sponsored by the Fisheries Branch of the Department of Lands.

During 1964, two riders and four horses of An Scoil Eachaíochta formed part of mixed military/civilian teams which represented Ireland in the international shows at London and Dublin. Teams from An Scoil also competed at 26 provincial shows and 25 gymkhana during the year. It is expected that Army riders and horses will compete in mixed teams at international shows at Nice, Rome, London and Dublin in 1965. Either a mixed team or an all-Army team is also likely to compete at shows in Harrisburg, New York and Toronto.

I am glad to say that the Civil Defence Organisation has continued to develop satisfactorily during the past year. According to returns submitted by the local authorities the total strength of Civil Defence volunteers on 31st December, 1964, was 17,246, which represents an increase of almost 5,000 on the corresponding figure which I gave last year for 31st December, 1963. This is indeed a most encouraging trend and reflects great credit on all concerned. It is, I think, also indicative of the continuing and growing awareness of the importance of Civil Defence and the existence of a spirit of unselfishness within the community as a whole. During the course of visits which I have continued to make throughout the country to see local civil defence activities in progress, I have been struck by the dedicated manner in which the Civil Defence services in general have been carrying out their work. They are doing what many unfortunately regard as a thankless job and I cannot praise them too highly for their efforts.

I thank those Members of the Oireachtas and local authorities who have shown interest in the development of civil defence. As I said last year, I am again looking forward with confidence to a continued increase in support from the elected representatives of the people so that those volunteers and officials who are actively concerned with civil defence at local level will derive from their support the encouragement which they merit.

The warden service continues to expand and to attract volunteers who have special aptitudes for local leadership. About 60 per cent of the number of District Wardens required have now been trained. Training in all the other services continues and members of some of these services have been of assistance to local authorities in local incidents such as fires, accidents, location of missing persons et cetera.

Last year I referred to the position of control centres at county, subcounty and regional levels. Despite the existence of difficulties which I then indicated some progress towards the implementation of proposals for these controls can be reported. Existing buildings which with certain modifications or adaptations will be suitable as control centres have been selected as county controls in 15 areas. It is expected that work on a number of these controls will be completed by 31st March, 1966. In areas where no suitable existing buildings are available a scheme has been evolved for the building of annexes to existing local authority premises. While these annexes are designed for primary use as control centres, they may also, if required, be used by local authorities for their own needs in peace-time.

I am glad to say that the new arrangements which I outlined last year as to the role which members of the Voluntary Aid Societies would play in civil defence, is beginning to show results. I wish to express my gratitude to the Heads of Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann. The St. John Ambulance Brigade of Ireland, and the Order of Malta Ambulance Corps for their co-operation in agreeing to this new arrangement. The total strength of the Casualty Service, including the members of the voluntary aid societies, is now about 4,000.

On the training side there are now 219 training centres throughout the country, that is, 49 additional centres have been opened in the past year. Competitions, exercises, demonstrations, and week-end camps continued to be held by local authorities. These activities are a most important factor in the development of the Civil Defence Organisation inasmuch as they give added experience to units as a whole and weld the service into a more composite and effective organisation.

An important development during the year was the extension of Civil Defence measures to Government Departments. A series of courses for the training of Civil Defence officers and instructors for all Departments of State was commenced with a view to giving instruction in civil defence to Departmental staffs. The training of instructors for local authorities, Defence Forces, and Garda Síochána continued during the year at An Scoil Cosanta Sibhialta. A lecture hall and associated improved amenities to which I referred last year are now in use in the School.

During the past year arrangements were well advanced for the printing of a booklet which sets out in simple terms general information as to the hazards of nuclear warfare and the measures which people could take to mitigate such hazards. It is hoped to have these booklets issued to every householder within the next few months.

Looking at the individual subheads, it will be seen that there are substantial increases in all the pay and allowances subheads, A, B, C, D, E and F. During 1964, we had the ninth round increase in remuneration and very big increases in children's allowances and in other allowances such as ration allowance and travelling and subsistence allowances. Because of the size of these subheads, all others had been cut to the bone, only the most essential expenditure being provided for. Indeed, many things which ordinarily we would regard as essential have had to be omitted. The largest increases are in Subhead M—Clothing and Equipment, Subhead P— Naval Stores, Subhead S—Buildings, Subhead T—Barrack Services, Subhead Y—Post Office Services and Subhead DD—Lands. The Clothing and Equipment provision of £454,000 includes £200,000 for mobilisation stocks which are being built up. The initial issue of new type uniform is now almost completed and is an improvement, both in appearance and comfort, on the former one.

The increase in the Naval Stores subhead is due to a provision of £65,000 for two launches required to maintain communication with Spike Island when the proposed bridge linking Haulbowline with the mainland is completed. The only passage capable of being navigated at all tides is what is known as the "back channel", which will be crossed by the proposed bridge. Existing launches will not be able to pass under the bridge, so that two new ones will have to be designed and constructed. The alternative would be to build a bridge with an opening span, and this course was not considered satisfactory.

The provision for buildings covers a variety of proposed works, including the modernisation of men's billet blocks, modernisation of old type soldiers' married quarters, and further accommodation for An Forsa Cosanta Áitiúil in rural areas. Provision is made for the erection of 20 houses for soldiers in Athlone and for a further six which it is hoped to build in some other area—possibly Limerick. These would bring the total built in recent years to 196, and it is intended to continue the policy, to which I have referred previously, of supplementing local authorities' efforts in the provision of housing by providing, from the Vote for Defence, houses for married soldiers at centres throughout the country where there is the greatest need. The increased provision in Subhead T, Barrack Services, reflects the increased costs involved in the continuation of the programme of improved dining halls and billets in pursuance of the policy of improving amenities for soldiers living in barracks.

The increase for Post Office Services —£33,200—is something over which we had no control; it reflects the increased cost of postage, telegrams and telephones. The increased provision of £10,410 in Subhead DD— Lands—arises from the proposed acquisition of premises for a Civil Defence Regional Headquarters.

On the other hand, Subheads G— Civil Defence, J—Mechanical Transport and 02—Helicopters are very much reduced. Civil Defence equipment and stores have been built up very much over a number of years so that, even with the increased training requirements of the expanding organisation, the expenditure in the coming year will be substantially less. As to mechanical transport, large purchases had to be made last year to replace vehicles written off in the Congo, and their replacement is nearing completion. Most of the heavier type vehicles being purchased are powered by diesel engines, which follows current commercial practice. In the coming year there will be no capital expenditure on helicopters, and that explains the reduction in the Subhead.

A provision of £22,000 by way of grant-in-aid to Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann is included under Subhead BB. This includes a sum of £3,000 for the Emergency Relief Fund. In the past year assistance amounting to over £2,000 has been given from the Fund to distressed areas in South Korea, Pakistan, the Yemen, South Vietnam, Tunisia and Morocco. An Cumann continues to maintain the North China refugees at its home, Naomh Aindreas, in Dublin and a sum of £4,250 is provided for this worthy undertaking. Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann continues its excellent humanitarian work and I wish again to express my appreciation of its many and varied activities in the relief of suffering. In addition to its other activities An Cumann is this year organising Old People's Year in order to focus the interest of the public on the problems of the old. Specifically An Cumann, through its various committees throughout the country, expects this year to organise home helps, home nursing and visits to old people. This undertaking is in keeping with the many humanitarian works on which An Cumann engages and I hope that it will be well supported by the public. Our thanks are due to Cumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann also for the magnificent work being done in the organisation of the country's Freedom from Hunger Campaign.

As Deputies may be aware, arrangements have been made by the Government to provide An Cumann with a more suitable headquarters building. Suitable premises were purchased recently and it is expected that An Cumann will occupy the building this year.

As regards the Estimate for Army Pensions, the provision is for the sum of £2,377,130, being an increase of £61,4311 over that for 1964/1965, as itself increased by £45,049 transferred from the Vote for Increases in Pensions in respect of the 1964 Budgetary increases. These increases were 5 per cent on all pensions and allowances, except special allowances. For special allowance purposes, all "appropriate annual sums" were increased by £4, which is approximately 5 per cent of the average special allowance.

As to the Estimate itself, there is very little that I need say, as it follows the usual pattern. The provisions for retired pay and pensions under the Defence Forces (Pensions) Schemes, Subhead E, and for special allowances, Subhead H, continue to increase substantially, while that for military service pensions, Subhead D, shows a further decline, naturally enough, although regrettable, with the passage of time.

Up to now, budgetary increases in pensions and allowances had been the subject of amending legislation, the consideration of which has been burdensome for both Houses of the Oireachtas. Arrangements are being made to deal with such increases, commencing with the 1964 increases, by way of orders or similar instruments which will only have to be laid before each House and which need not be debated unless objection is seen to them in any respect.

I hope to be able to introduce, in the not too distant future, legislation to bring about some alterations which, I feel sure, will meet with the fullest approval of all Deputies. The first is that the payment of married pensions and widows' and children's allowances will not depend on the date of marriage, as they do at present, and the second is that where a pensioner with a high degree of pensionable disability dies, his widow and children will be eligible for allowances, even if it is not clearly established that he died of his pensionable disability.

These proposals will be incorporated in a Bill with some others not of the same importance—tidying-up provisions, so to speak—following which I hope that we can go ahead with the consolidation of the Army Pensions Acts, something that has been long desired.

The Supplementary Estimate for Defence for the year 1964/1965 is for a net sum of £1,954,600 and, as Deputies will see from the details given, it arises almost entirely from increases in pay and allowances and the expenses of the Cyprus operation. The ninth round increases, which affected salaries, wages, pay and marriage allowance, came into operation as from 1st February, 1964, and as no provision had been made for them in the Vote for 1964/1965, this Supplementary Estimate now makes the necessary provision as regards the Defence Forces, the Civil Service staff of the Department of Defence and civilians employed with the Defence Forces.

It also covers other substantial increases—particularly in children's allowances—which came into force during the year with retrospective effect. Lastly, revised salary scales have been coming into operation for Civil Service grades for some time past with effect from 1st January, 1964, and revised scales are about to be introduced for the Defence Forces with effect from the same date. The Supplementary Estimate also provides for the cost of these up to the end of the year 1964/1965.

Deputies are already aware of the financial arrangements applying to the supply of Irish contingents to the United Nations Force in Cyprus. As the Minister for External Affairs reminded the House recently, this country has declined to accept reimbursement of the customary United Nations allowances for our troops because the Cyprus operation is being financed from a voluntary fund rather than one contributed to by all the member States as part of their regular assessment. Nevertheless, we regard our costs as a debt due to us by the United Nations and we intend to keep pressing for repayment.

The two principal items of Cyprus expenditure for which the Supplementary Estimate provides are £337,826 overseas allowances and per diem allowances for members of our contingents and £257,500 for the purchase of equipment. As to equipment, the main purchase consisted of 16 Panhard armoured cars, eight of which were acquired in 1963/1964 and the others during the present financial year, the total cost being in the region of £415,000. Of this, the sum of £156,000 approximately was met from the Vote for 1963/1964 and this Supplementary Estimate now provides, at Subhead H, for the balance of £257,500. It is our intention, of course, that these armoured cars will be brought back to Ireland when the Cyprus operation ends, and they will form a valuable addition to our defensive equipment.

Before Deputy MacEoin commences, are we to take the three Estimates together? We have made mistakes before.

All the Estimates relating to this Department are being discussed together.

The Deputy may say all he wants. He should not take my advice, though, if he does not like to. There is one point, of course, on which I must agree with the Minister. We are indeed proud of our troops who have served in the Congo and who are now serving in Cyprus. They have rendered signal honour to themselves and to their country. As far as I can ascertain, their personal conduct has been of a very high order and the number of reports of falls from grace are few. For that we must be thankful.

Otherwise, there is much one would like to say on the entire question. The Minister mentioned at the end of his statement that we were not accepting a reimbursement from the United Nations because the payment was being made from a voluntary fund. I do not see why we should take that line. We are not a wealthy country that should readily undertake such a heavy burden, especially in view of the fact that we have responsibilities at home which apparently cannot be met because of financial stringency in other directions. We are told our troops may be required there for a considerable time, that though the UN mandate ends in March, they may be required for a longer period. I subscribe to the view that if they are required, we must meet our obligations. When the Minister for Defence and the Minister for External Affairs tell us they will continue to regard the cost as a debt against the United Nations, I feel they are speaking tongue in cheek. How they will make Russia and the rest of them pay up is something I cannot understand. However, it is a good thing to have them so optimistic about getting payment. The position is a difficult one, I admit, but we should not bear a burden out of proportion to our resources, and this burden is out of proportion to our resources.

I am glad the Minister and the Government have accepted the view that marriage allowances should be paid to widows and officers, NCOs and men, irrespective of the date of marriage. This is something near to my heart. I am glad, too, that the principle is now being recognised and accepted that disability is a reasonable ground justifying the payment of an allowance to the widow of a pensioner. That will create some difficulties not only for the present Government but for succeeding Governments but it is a principle that should have been accepted at all times. I am glad the Minister proposes to introduce legislation to remedy the present position. There are, of course, cases where death took place some years ago. Will those cases be covered or is it only cases in the future that will be covered? In my opinion, all surviving widows should be covered in the legislation. When we can be generous with the United Nations and spend money for prestige, we should admit our liability in this regard and accept liability in full.

With regard to military service pensions, the position is not at all satisfactory. A person in receipt of a small pension gets an increase of £4 per annum. Deputies are expected to defend that at a time when their own allowances have been increased by 50 per cent. It is impossible to make a case for this paltry increase. These certificates held by military service pensioners show clearly they were the people who helped to establish the State. Now the Government make a grant of £4 and say it is an adequate increase. It is a source of grave embarrassment to me and I am sure it is a source of grave embarrassment to many Deputies sitting behind the Government. Why they tolerate it I do not know.

The Minister says this represents approximately five per cent on the average. Some of the awards made are ridiculous sums like £7. 10/- and £8 a year. Add £4 to that. It may mean a 55 or 60 per cent increase on the existing pension. It all goes to show how very misleading percentages can be. I should be glad to learn from the Minister if the Government have considered the matter and what the proposals are. There is no reason why these pensions should not be increased by a reasonable amount.

Special allowances and medals can be very disconcerting. To give an example; an applicant applies for a medal; it is held the one he has was not duly awarded; his case is reinvestigated when practically every officer of his company is dead; it is then referred to battalion officers; at least 50 per cent of those battalion officers are also dead and the only officers in the area are people who became officers after 11th July. They are taken as proper persons for service between 1st April, 1921, and 11th July, 1921. The evidence of the section commander is rejected.

In another case an applicant with a medal applies for a special allowance. The question of whether or not it is duly awarded is investigated. This applicant was known by two different names. Nobody knew him as John X but everybody knew him by a nickname. I saw him in action. I know he was there when I was arrested. He was on duty when I was leaving and he was there when I came back. I was away from early March until August and I cannot certify that anybody was serving during that period, but it is common knowledge that certain people were. Yet, my certificate is not acceptable for service between 1st April, 1921 and 11th July, 1921. All I can say is that I believe the applicant was there, but that is not good enough. When an officer who lives several miles away from that applicant is asked about the person, he does either of two things: he writes back and says he knows nothing about him, or he ignores it altogether. One is as bad as the other. Then the evidence is inconclusive and he is rejected.

I got a company captain's affidavit for this person, showing that he served in the new company to which he was transferred. Yet he was rejected because, I can only assume, somebody made a statement to the contrary. Otherwise, I assume the company captain's evidence would be accepted. I should like to know the rank and appointment of that other person, but I cannot get it because these matters are confidential. If I am asked for a certificate for the Minister for Defence and I want to denigrate the person concerned, all I have to do is to say I do not know anything about him. The Minister has no opportunity of getting information as to who said that. While these matters may be confidential, the time has come when the Minister should establish some machinery by which evidence could be taken verbally from people in a position to certify service and the applicant should have the right to call witnesses.

This is a serious matter. It can deprive a person entitled to the medal or the special allowance, which ranges from as low as £25 or less to as much as £130 or £140 per year. If I slander or libel somebody and do so much damage, I can be sued. Here, apparently, I can say with impunity something to the detriment of the applicant. The Minister would be well advised to have this matter reexamined. I know how it all came about and I am aware of the difficulties. I know there were, and I suppose, will be, grave abuses. There is no doubt about that whatever. But I would prefer to have five per cent or ten per cent abuses in order to make sure that even one person entitled would succeed. There is no reason why a person should be denied his rights for the purpose of catching out the five per cent or ten per cent guilty of abuses.

I know how it came about, but I do not want to go into it. There was, I regret to say, some political activity in it. The present Minister was not involved in any way; neither was I myself, nor my colleague who was Minister for Defence at that time. A situation arose in which people had got forms signed, and then they were given out blank. That had to be guarded against. I agree it is not easy. That led to the situation where medals which had been issued had to be reinvestigated. But that was 14 years ago and the circumstances have changed considerably since. The roll call 14 years ago was much higher than it is today. The Minister says very correctly that the bill for military service pensions is falling every day. That is true. Time, the great reaper, is taking his toll. In a few short years, there will be no more medal holders or special allowances.

I would ask the Government to establish some machinery by which even late applicants for a medal will have the opportunity of bringing people to be examined on oath in support of their claim. I do not see any other way out of it. The Minister or the referee or adjudicating officer, such as in old age pension cases, could take the evidence of people who had a military service certificate, and were in a position to know who had served in a certain area, as substantiating the claim. Equally, it would be legitimate for them to say to the Minister that they would not give evidence because the evidence they would give would be against the applicant. The referee would then know that the evidence was not available.

Where an applicant for a medal has applied for a military service certificate, under either the 1924 Act or the 1934 Act, and there is evidence on the file before the referee to show membership during the qualifying period, that should be sufficient to warrant the issue of the medal, even though the service was not of the nature and duration as would entitle him to a certificate of service. Since the special allowance is for membership, it does establish the membership beyond yea or nay.

The Minister may say that these files are not available to him. It is amazing that, if a file is to the disadvantage of a member of the IRA, it is available to the Attorney General or somebody to prosecute him; but it is not available if it is to his advantage. I submit where that is available and where the name is on the list, there should be no question about it. While the lists were being submitted from every area, there was a proviso that they were as accurate as they could be made at the time, but that omissions might have taken place. There was always the proviso that there was sufficient evidence that the name should be put on the list.

Dealing with the main Estimate, this expenditure is high but of course the main increase is for pay and allowances and it shows, with the cost of food and rations, and the increase for telephone services, just exactly how much the cost of living has increased. If you were to search any record, you could not get a better example than this. It sets out the increases in rations, clothing, food and fuel and telegraph and postal services. It is an amazing document, setting out in such detail just what the cost of living is in every section.

There is a Supplementary Estimate for last year, that is, the year 1964/65. We are getting a reduction which will not be repeated apparently this year but it may, as the Minister says, if the Cyprus operation continues. But it is a very large sum for 1,143 officers, 82 cadets and 7,000 other ranks, a large sum indeed. I think there ought to be some revision of the whole question of services and how best we can have a defence force available to meet the nation's requirements. Were it not for the F.C.A., and the Civil Defence forces, throughout the country, we would be in a poor enough condition. I want to join with the Minister in congratulating and thanking the members of the Civil Defence service for their patriotic work and the enduring and unselfish service they render.

On the question of getting recruits or volunteers for the Congo or Cyprus, while it was encouraging to see the large numbers who volunteered, I am afraid there was a slight monetary consideration involved as well. The benefits are fairly substantial. I do not know that when these boys— officers, NCOs and men—return, after having enjoyed increased pay and allowances for a long period abroad, they will be agreeable to serve on at home for a much lesser figure and I think the Minister and the Government will be up against a certain problem, but I hope they will be able to get over it.

These men, as I say, have rendered great service and have done honour to the country and it is too bad that in the rendering of services of that nature, we had to have our casualties and our dead and wounded. It is only right and fitting that any person speaking on this Vote should extend the sympathy of not only the Party to which he belongs but also his own sympathy to the relatives and families of these officers, NCOs and men who gave their lives in this service.

I am glad to know, and I am sure the Minister would not say it if it were not true, that our Irish troops have shown that gift of patience to which he referred in their handling of the situation in Cyprus and in the Congo. It must have been exasperating at times and we all know patience is not one of our great virtues. We can be very short-tempered and uncomplimentary to each other and it is something I am glad to know has been inculcated into that body of men who are serving abroad and who are doing that fine job of peacekeeping.

I say the United Nations have a responsibility to meet their obligations in the matter, and I wish the Government success in pressing that payment be made for this debt for the fine work done. It is a comfort and a consolation to know that a number of industrial firms and private individuals have contributed to the sending of gifts to the troops serving abroad. While it is something for which we must be very grateful to these firms and individuals, and we are grateful to them for their generosity, I do not think it is fitting that we should have to do that. If these men are serving the cause of peace for an international body such as the United Nations, surely it should be covered by ample pay, and arrangements should be made by the Secretary-General of the United Nations for their entertainment and the comforts that are being provided by firms and private individuals.

I am glad the helicopter service has been a success. Even though it may not have had a large number of spectacular rescues, the fact that it has even one successful rescue justifies the expenditure. I hope the helicopters will not be wanted, but it is a great thing to have them on hand if they are wanted. That is the all-important thing.

On the question of the naval forces, the protection of our fisheries and patrol boats, I think the time has come when the Government must examine that whole matter, and take steps to get smaller, lighter and swifter patrol boats. I believe there have been demonstrations of such craft which could be purchased at a reasonable figure and which could be manned by a small number of naval personnel, which would be very effective. As we have extended the fisheries limit to 12 miles, it is ridiculous to expect one naval vessel to be able to patrol the whole coastline. The British Navy was not able to do it. While one is insufficient, I suppose ten would also be insufficient but at least they would be ten times better than one.

The time has come for the Minister and the Government to review the whole situation. While there was a time when service in the Navy was enticing, the old saying "Join the Navy and see the World" does not apply to our type of service. The essential thing is to have the inducement of higher pay. There is no use comparing what they have in Britain or anywhere else with what we have. If we make the pay attractive enough we will get the volunteers. As long as they can get service in foreign countries, that inducement will be too great for them.

I am glad to see that the training of pilots by our Air Corps is proceeding well. This should be extended because I am informed that we still have to call on foreign personnel for some pilots for Aer Lingus. The greater the number trained the greater will be our reserve and the better the service we will be able to give to Aer Lingus who have so much work to do.

In regard to mechanics in the Air Corps, there is, I admit, a great difficulty. A boy enters the Air Corps and undertakes to serve his time, become a trained mechanic and give so many years service to the Corps, but when the pay is not as high as he can get outside, the enticement to leave is very great. The only answer is to provide higher pay. In this way we will get rid of wastage and build up recruitment, as shown by the Minister in his speech. I have already referred to Civil Defence and the service being rendered by the personnel in that service.

I am glad that the Army School of Equitation is going well and it is satisfactory to learn that the mixed teams have had such success both at home and abroad, but I do not know exactly what the Minister means when he says that either a mixed team or an allArmy team will compete in Harrisburg, New York and Toronto. He should be able at this stage to say which sort of team will compete. I should also like to know how the Equitation School regard their horses. Are they satisfied with them? Do they feel they are up to the required standard? Are they getting the necessary training? I know that both the younger and older officers desire to give of their best and I have no complaint to make in that regard but I had experience of having excellent and dedicated officers but who lacked something. We had to get the expert training for them. The Minister may be faced with that problem also. I have deliberately avoided making any inquiry about that because last year I did so and the Minister misunderstood my intention. My inquiries were not intended as a criticism of anybody but were for the purpose of assisting. However, I did not inquire this year, nor do I intend to, but as I hope there will be a change of Government at some future date, somebody will be able to tell me if I am not able to inquire myself.

The Red Cross, together with the St. John Ambulance Brigade and the Knights of Malta continue to play a very important part and render valuable service but I should like to say that these three organisations are not satellites of Fianna Fáil but are national organisations. They are not to be taken over as if, from the President of each organisation down, they belonged to Fianna Fáil. The actions of some people appear at times to sustain that idea. I do not want them to be tinged in any way with that political brush. The training centres are operating well and I hope people will realise that civil defence is for the nation's protection and welfare in case of the worst. God forbid that that should happen but there is an old saying that God helps those who help themselves. I am glad that the provision of halls throughout the country is being extended and perhaps these could be utilised for other purposes as well.

Generally speaking, I am pleased with the conduct of the Army both at home and abroad. The new uniform and beret appear to be an improvement but I am not sure that the cloth is superior to the old cloth in the matter of keeping out the cold. I saw troops yesterday, both here in Dublin and in the country, and they certainly were cold. Of course, I think they were kept too long standing in both places. Somehow I got the impression, while the uniform looks smarter, it was not as warm and as comfortable as the old one at this time of the year. I do not know why I got that particular point of view.

The Minister tells us the Estimate is being cut to the bone after all pay and allowances, under the various subheads, have been deducted. The only large increase is in respect of clothing, equipment and naval stores. It really strikes me as amazing that the increase under the naval subhead is due to the provision of £65,000 for two launches to maintain communications with Spike Island when the proposed bridge linking Haulbowline with the mainland is completed. We have to buy two boats to maintain communications for ourselves because we are to build a bridge to suit Irish Steel. I wonder have the Government looked into the economics of that? Haulbowline may be the cheapest for ground rent and all that sort of thing and the factory is sited there—I suppose I should refer to this on the Department of Industry and Commerce Vote—but it is an amazing situation that we have to buy two launches to keep these communications with Spike Island. We are building the bridge at Haulbowline, which as I say, is to facilitate Irish Steel Limited. That is a matter which can be dealt with again at a later stage and I suppose we can get some particulars of it from the Minister for Industry and Commerce when his Vote comes up.

The last thing I want to say is that am glad the Government are continuing to build married quarters for their married Officers, NCOs and men, If, during the years gone by, any substantial sum was spent on building houses for our military and naval personnel, we would now have an asset, according to present day prices, of triple the value. However, it is good to know even at this late stage there is to be an increase and an improvement in the building of houses for them. The great difficulty is that in a town where the baracks is situated, the local authority do not wish to give military personnel the tenancy of a house. It is equally hard, for some reason or another, for either the serving personnel or a member of the Forces who retires to get a house in local authority areas. Even though you write and say this person has served in the Defence Forces and prior to this served in the IRA, and what not, it does not appear to get him a house.

I shall finish on that point because I feel the housing of the troops, the barrack and billet services, their maintenance and the cooking arrangements are improving. I should like to see them improving further because I suggest that with proper accommodation for personnel today, you have a contented army. While I have no doubt they are contented they could be even more contented with suitable quarters. A suitable place for amusement would keep them out of the public house, to which, let me say, I have no objection. It is a great advantage to have these amenities within their own barrack gates.

Like the previous speaker, I, too, would like to say we are all very proud of the way our troops have behaved abroad. Of course, we expected them to behave that way. They simply carried on the proud tradition of the Irish soldier. It was too bad that lives were lost but that is the fortune of war. I am very glad there has been no casualty in Cyprus. It is regrettable that one person has died, but apart from that, so far, we have had no casualties there.

I notice that the number of people who have served in the Congo and Cyprus seems to be extraordinary, considering the strength of the Defence Forces here. It makes one wonder whether the Minister considers there is any necessity for a standing force in this country. Quite a substantial number of regular Army personnel have been abroad for the past few years. I would suggest to him—it is a personal view—that the United Nations should now be asked to get some other country to do their share because I suggest we have done more than our share.

Hear, hear.

The question of whether payment is to be made from the voluntary fund of the United Nations is a matter of principle. I do not agree with Deputy MacEoin that it makes no difference how it is paid so long as it is paid. I consider the Government are perfectly right in their attitude that the debt is owed by the United Nations and it would be unwise to accept payment from the voluntary fund which is being set up. I also feel there is very little hope of getting this money from Russia or France, who have no intention of paying. It will be a complete write-off. That is all the more reason for saying at this stage we have done our share. Nobody could blame this country for saying that now.

I know quite a lot of our troops have volunteered for service abroad. Why have they done that? First of all, they would like to see a bit of the world. Secondly, they felt the onus was on them to volunteer when asked to do so. Thirdly—this is the most important—they would get more money. It is rather ridiculous that while we are prepared to give additional money to a substantial number who go abroad, we are not prepared to give a decent wage to those at home. The Minister may say they got the ninth round. How does the rate being paid to Irish soldiers at present compare with the rate paid in outside employment? Is it not true there is no comparison at all? Is it any wonder the young man in the country thinks twice or three times before he decides to join the Army and then usually decides he will not.

I would particularly refer to the fact that the people in the Army are of the very best type. The Minister should now do something—it was suggested many times before—to see that the district justices are told the Army is no place for young blackguards who come before them. They are recommended to join the Army as part of their sentences.

The Army does not take them.

I know that, but I am making the point the district justices should not be allowed to continue to say that they will give them a suspended sentence if they join the Army. It gives the impression that the Army is the place where people can get a remission of sentence.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 3rd March, 1965.
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