Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Mar 1965

Vol. 214 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Turf Development Bill, 1965: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

The main purpose of the Bill is to raise by £4 million the amount which Bord na Móna may borrow for the performance of its statutory functions. The existing limit on such borrowings is £24 million and the Board has to date borrowed £23,796,557. Of this £20.85 million was advanced from the Central Fund; Messrs. Guinness advanced £¾ million.

The Board raised £2 million by an issue of stock to the public in May last year and the balance was raised by borrowings from an insurance company and the Board's Superannuation Fund. Borrowings to date will finance the Board's developments until late this summer. The Board has already repaid £2,568,915 of the advances from the Central Fund and £184,917 of the loan from Messrs. Guinness.

The main output of Bord na Móna is determined by the requirements of peat for electricity generation. It is Government policy that all bogs which are economically usable for electricity generation are developed for this purpose.

Bord na Móna supplies sod peat for the electricity generating stations at Portarlington, Allenwood and Lanesboro which have a total generating capacity of 97.5 megawatts. No further sod peat generating stations are planned. Milled peat is supplied for electricity generation to the stations at Ferbane, Rhode, Shannonbridge and Bellacorick which have a total installed capacity of 250 megawatts. The normal annual fuel requirements of these stations are 565,000 tons of sod peat and 1,860,000 tons of milled peat. Sod peat and milled peat requirements for electricity generation at present account for some 75 per cent of the total sales of Bord na Móna. Two further milled peat generating units are planned, viz. a 40 megawatt extension at Lanesboro to come into operation early in 1966 and a 40 megawatt unit at Shannonbridge to come into operation about 1972. When these two additional units are in operation the total requirements of milled peat for electricity generation will be 2,420,000 tons per annum.

Generation of electricity from native resources as a whole, that is to say hydro, peat and native coal, amounted to about 62.5 per cent of total output in the year ended 31st March, 1964. In that year 35.6 per cent of the total number of units supplied to the system was provided by peat-fired stations. Peat-fired stations now represent about 36 per cent of the total generating capacity of the ESB. The development by existing methods of our peat resources for electricity generation will be completed by about 1972 when the second of the two additional peat-fired units is expected to be in operation. As by far the greater proportion of new generating plant planned to come into operation in the meantime will be based on oil, the proportion of total generating capacity of the ESB based on peat will have fallen to about 25 per cent by 1972.

In addition to the production of peat for electricity generation the Board produces annually about 330,000 tons of sod peat for general sale as well as about 700,000 tons of milled peat for briquette manufacture and 350,000 bales of moss peat.

The development plans of Bord na Móna are set out in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. The following are the main lines of expansion envisaged:—

(i) Firstly, there is the new briquette factory, estimated to cost £1.75 million to be built in the Shannonbridge area and which is planned to come into operation in about three years' time. Production from the three existing factories in 1964-65 amounted to 295,000 tons. The Board expect that the output of these factories can be increased to 320,000 tons per annum. The proposed new factory is planned to produce 135,000 tons per annum which would give a total output from the four factories of 455,000 tons per annum or the equivalent of 300,000 tons of coal. The quantity of milled peat required for the production of briquettes at the rate of 450,000 tons per annum would be about 1,200,000 tons per annum;

(ii) The second main item is bog development estimated to cost £1.70 million. The decision to divert some 300,000 tons per annum of the milled peat output of the Blackwater-Garryduff group of bogs to supply the fourth briquette factory has necessitated the postponement of the second 40 MW generating unit at the Shannonbridge station which has been planned for 1968-69 and which would have absorbed this output. The Athlone group of bogs now being developed to supply this unit will not be in full production until about 1972. This is the last remaining bog area suitable for development for milled peat production by the Board's present methods.

(iii) The third item is the Board's second moss peat factory which is being erected near Portlaoise. This factory, which will cost about £300,000, is expected to commence production during the coming summer and will enable the existing output of about 350,000 bales per annum to be doubled. Deputies will be aware that about 80 per cent of the present moss peat production is exported. It is expected that by far the greater part of the output of the new factory will also be exported.

The balance of the Board's capital requirements is in respect of increased working capital necessitated by the expanding scale of the Board's activities and of the cost of miscellaneous minor works.

The provision in the Bill for the raising, from £24 million to £28 million, of the existing limit on borrowings by the Board will enable the Board to continue its development work for another three years or so when the House will have a further opportunity of reviewing the position. On the basis of the present estimates a further £2 million borrowing will probably be necessary at that stage for the completion of the Board's development programme.

The average number of persons employed by Bord na Móna at present is 5,300.

The opportunity of this Bill is being taken to repeal section 4 of the Turf Development Act, 1963. This section provides that a contract fixing the remuneration, period of office, not exceeding five years, etc. of the Managing Director of Bord na Móna may be entered into with him by the Minister with the concurrence of the Minister for Finance and the approval of the Government notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the general provisions relating to appointment, terms of office, etc. of members of the Board under the Act under which the Board was established. This section was intended to give the Managing Director at the time security of office. No contract has been made with the present Managing Director. In practice, the Managing Director is appointed by the Government for periods of five years at a time and this is a more convenient administrative arrangement than a formal contract. The provision is, therefore, unnecessary and is being revoked.

Bord na Móna has served the nation well and I am sure I am expressing the feeling of the House in congratulating the management and staff of the Board on the success of their undertaking and the efficient manner in which their operations are conducted. The success of the Board's first public stock issue in May last, which Deputies will recall was heavily over-subscribed, reflects the confidence of the public in the Board's undertaking.

I confidently recommend the Bill to the House.

It is, I suppose, necessary that Bord na Móna should have the additional money required. We must agree that the Board has done well and, in particular, that the briquette factories will prove to be the success that we on this side of the House believed they would be and that there is an even greater opening for them than for any other products of the Board. Of course, Board na Móna have a sheltered position in that they have a guaranteed market for much of their products through the ESB. While that is an advantage to them, it increases the cost of electricity on the other hand, but, I suppose, the Government having embarked on this plan a long time ago, we cannot now call a halt to it. I do not want to cramp style in any way but I would urge the Minister to impress upon Bord na Móna the advantage to be derived from increased production of briquettes. The Bord na Móna briquettes are a clean, very efficient and convenient form of home-produced fuel and have replaced to a very great extent imported coal.

The Minister has told us that the number employed in Bord na Móna is slightly over 5,000. There is a very large capital investment in the industry and the employment content appears comparatively small. It is a good thing, of course, that Bord na Móna provides employment for that number. I should like the Minister to give us a breakdown of the figure for employment because many employees of the Board are engaged on seasonal work and their employment is not continuous in a great number of cases. I am aware that at several Bord na Móna production plants—not confined to Longford, Westmeath, Athlone or Shannonbridge —there are long periods of unemployment for a great number of personnel. The workers work hard for a certain period and earn good money. Some method should be devised to provide whole-time employment for them. I would again ask the Minister to give a breakdown of the figure of 5,300, giving the length of time in the year for which they are employed. The capital investment is very great for that employment content and I am very much afraid that in many cases the employment is not whole-time.

It is true to say that Bord na Móna has done a very fine job in levelling and draining the bogs upon which it operates. Unfortunately, the farms through which the outlets run become filled up with turf mould very quickly. Around Ballymahon there are a large number of farmers who complain that Bord na Móna has failed to give them the protection they need. In those cases where drainage is required, the Board of Works say that it is not part of the Inny drainage scheme but is a matter for Bord na Móna, while Bord na Móna deny responsibility and suggest that the farmers should avail of the Land Project to remedy the matter. Those responsible for the Land Project take the view that the work involved would be more extensive than would come under their auspices. I have been in correspondence with Bord na Móna and the Office of Public Works. I got no satisfaction. The farmers in the district have suffered considerable hardship.

The peat moss produced by Bord na Móna is a very valuable commodity but I do not think its value for various purposes is sufficiently advertised. Considerable quantities are exported. Of course, every export trade is valuable even though it might not be as economic as one would like. The merits of peat moss should be more widely advertised.

When the Minister says that the public subscribed generously to Bord na Móna, I want to say that it is as if they were subscribing to the National Loan because it is a Government-guaranteed stock. There is no reason why, if people had money, they would not put it into Bord na Móna. It is a gilt-edged security. It is not evidence of great faith in Bord na Móna; it is evidence of confidence in the security of the State. That security of the State will always remain high, provided proper use is made of the finances secured by the various methods now adopted—loans, Prize Bonds and the new method announced by the Minister for Finance today. Let us hope by all these methods the necessary capital will be provided for the development of the country in the way we all desire.

I do not completely agree with Deputy MacEoin's suggestion that the public subscribed to the loan because it was backed by the Government, because, as the Minister has said, the loan was heavily over-subscribed and, clearly, that was a measure of confidence in Bord na Móna. There have been loans floated, not only by companies of this kind but by the Government, which have not been over-subscribed or subscribed in full measure and it is not fair to detract from the tremendous achievement of Bord na Móna since its inauguration.

For that reason, naturally, to a person like myself who has advocated for so long an extension of public ownership—public ownership and control, if possible, and certainly public ownership—of enterprises of this kind, it is a great satisfaction to find such a doctrinaire conservative as the Minister, a politician, saying such nice things about Bord na Móna. Of course, with some luck, at the end of his tenure of office, it is quite conceivable that we will find that he has become a fullblown socialist, advocating this type of development in connection with the really difficult jobs in the country, but that is possibly hoping for too much.

The arguments against public ownership are completely knocked aside by the success of the ESB and Bord na Móna which have proved themselves particularly suitable to the economy of the country over the past 30 years. If ever there has been shown clearly the way in which we should have developed our economy in the past half-century, it is shown in the success of this type of enterprise, a particularly difficult one which needed great faith on the part of the then Ministers. They must have known all the arguments we now hear about the difficulty of making a State enterprise work, the lack of technical know-how, the lack of technicians and technocrats, the lack of sales promotion organisations, export know-hows, and so on.

In this respect the Taoiseach displayed a strangely schizoid personality: on the one hand, in his great belief in the development of this type of enterprise and, on the other hand, in his tremendous lack of faith in the financing by the State of the expansion of productive investment, textiles, and so on. He seems to have an extraordinary lack of faith in the application of the principle upon which Bord na Móna was founded, land, labour and capital, the three classic foundation stones upon which one builds up any such enterprise. These have been wonderfully and successfully integrated in Bord na Móna. All the things which we were told could not exist and could not be found were brought forward. Our own people came forward from the secondary and vocational schools and the universities and have contributed to the great success of this organisation.

The Minister's conservative beliefs seem to be particularly highlighted by the contrast between his great praise, justifiable praise, of Aer Lingus, the ESB, and the appalling record which he would have to admit to in regard to the activities of private enterprise in the country over the same period.

How long does one remain impenetrable to the lesson which should be learned from this type of organisation? They undertook an extremely difficult job in these barren wastelands in the various parts of rural Ireland. It needed courage to spend money on such projects while being told that you were losing money in bogholes. It is to the credit of the Ministers at that time that they had the courage to go ahead and spend the money because the record now shows they spent it wisely.

The great question here, as in Great Britain, is to what extent we should continue to depend on our own resources. I am naturally in favour of continuing to use our resources to the greatest extent possible but in Britain there is an economic argument against the use of coal, that oil can be obtained much more easily and is a sounder proposition economically. The possibility now has to be faced that nuclear-powered stations will replace even oil. I wonder to what extent is Bord na Móna facing up to that problem. I suppose the time when we shall run out of workable resources is foreseeable but our workable resources will probably last long enough to bring us into the period in which we can use oil or nuclear-powered machines for the development of electricity and power.

Is there any reason why ESB power will fall from 35½ per cent to 25 per cent? To the extent that the generating capacity of the ESB is based on peat, does that mean we have taken a decision in regard to the working out of the peat resources or that we realise that peat may not be as economical as oil? Are we switching over to oil, or, more important, are we switching over to coal? Why is there a reduction?

What is the general policy of Bord na Móna in relation to cutaway bog? I have heard from time to time there were various schemes for the use of the turf and then the development of afforestation and other schemes which might make the cutaway bogs capable of producing some useful crop, whether ordinary crops or trees. Is there any general plan in regard to the use of these cutaway bogs or is there just haphazard development according to the whim of whoever happens to be in occupation at the time?

When the Minister refers to the areas suitable for milled peat development by the Board's present methods, does he believe that better and more efficient methods are available and that the production of milled peat is likely to be very much increased? The amount of money needed for the present programme is about £1 million a year. The Minister says we can look into the question in three or four years' time and, more than likely, vote another £2 million, making a total of £6 million over a seven-year period. I am quite certain everybody is delighted to agree to the expenditure of this money and I hope it will be used as wisely in the future as it has been in the past.

One of the very satisfactory results of Bord na Móna activity, again rather like Comhlucht Siúicre Éireann, is the fact that it has developed the export side of its enterprise. Peat moss is a very valuable crop and it appears to have an almost insatiable market. It is a remarkable achievement that they have been able not only to supply the home market with briquettes or machine turf but have also been able to carry out this job which most of the private enterprise firms have virtually completely failed to do in the past 20 or 30 years. The creation of substantial exports of peat moss is again a refutation of the old ideas which have been current—and I must confess that I hear them rather less and less now—the idea that publicly-owned enterprise would mean that it would be stagnant, unenterprising and lack drive and dynamism. That is all so much eyewash now. It is now generally accepted that if you really want to organise society efficiently, the best way to do it is under public ownership.

It fascinates me how the socialist realist can dazzle himself with his own creeds.

It is a reality in most countries in the world. It is a reality in Bord na Móna.

I like the old-fashioned diehard socialism of Deputy Dr. Browne. It gives me a kind of comfortable feeling to know that there are still some people in the world who recall a comfortable memory. He often reminds me of the legitimate child of Keir Hardie and Keir Hardie in his cloth cap was a person I greatly admired, a person for whom I felt a great measure of affection and admiration, and perhaps I might say the same of Deputy Dr. Browne.

I think the test in all these matters no longer relates to the old-fashioned doctrinaire question whether enterprise is controlled by the State or controlled privately. What matters is how best can it serve the society of which it constitutes a part; and that service appears to me to be how best can it contribute to the welfare of the individual whom it serves directly by providing employment and, indirectly, by reducing the cost of production so that the rewards of those who work in production can be maximised.

If this country is to develop industrially one of the most urgent needs we have, if our industrial standards are to conform to those of other countries, is cheap power. Every increase in the cost of power carries with it the necessity of lower wages for the people who use that power in the production of end products for sale at home or for export. I want to see the people who use the power getting the maximum return in wages. Therefore, when I see sources of power tapped, I want to ask myself is this the sort of power best calculated to give those who are to spend their lives using it the maximum return. That is why I object to the control of power by private enterprise in places like the United States of America and elsewhere because experience has taught that, when the control of power is a question of profit, it usually ends up in those who have to use the power paying more for it and that means a diminution of their rewards.

For these reasons I should be grateful if the Minister would tell the House quite frankly a statistic we ought to have. We have now operating turf-powered stations, oil-powered stations and coal-powered stations all belonging to the same period of construction. There are one or two such stations working at maximum load capacity. You have these things contemporaneously in existence to make just comparisons. I should like to ask the Minister to tell us (1) how many million units are generated each year from turf and (2) comparing the most up-to-date turf-powered station we have with the most up-to-date oilburning station we have, which is the one in Cork, I think, what is the difference between the cost of generating electricity by turf and the cost of generating electricity by oil or coal?

These are three figures we ought to have and only the Minister or the Electricity Supply Board can supply them because there are certain complex calculations that require to be made to get a fair comparison, calculations one cannot make with the information made available in the annual reports of the Electricity Supply Board or Bord na Móna unless one has a technological training to estimate the relative cost of generating electricity in a station which is operating to only 50 per cent of its capacity as compared with the station operating to 100 per cent of its capacity. It is within the Minister's reach to find a comparable basis and state with statistical accuracy what the comparative costs are.

It amuses me sometimes to experience the doctrinaire soul of Deputy Dr. Browne hugging itself at the apparent success of State enterprise; but, in these moments of ecstasy, he always banishes from his mind the aspect of monopoly. The State enterprise operating a monopoly, particularly of this kind, cannot fail to make a profit because the monopoly simply determines the cost, passes on its end product to, in this case, the Electricity Supply Board and the Electricity Supply Board pays for the end product whatever is required to meet the cost of Bord na Móna, plus whatever margin of profit is agreed upon. Any entrepreneur operating a monopoly of this kind would make a fortune out of it but Parliament would, of course, very properly see that they would not permit a monopoly of such kind to remain in the hands of an entrepreneur.

When we operate in this connection a body such as Bord na Móna, employing 5,200 people, using the bulk of its production for the generation of power by selling it to the Electricity Supply Board, we ought to ask ourselves quite frankly what the cost is and, having determined what it costs, make up our minds with equal honesty as to whether we think we are getting good value for the expenditure involved. In taking that decision, we have to have regard not only to the amount of employment provided—managerial, manual, clerical—but we have also to consider the amount of transport employed and the value of the residual lands which will be made available when the bog has been cut away.

In that connection there is an important matter to which Deputy Dr. Browne referred, though I do not think he realised the significance of his reference. It is urgently necessary that there should be some intelligent plan as to how you will use the cutaway bog. The Minister would be very well advised to consult the Peatland Research Station, now controlled by the Agricultural Research Institute, at Glenamoy because he will find that, in accordance with the final user of these cutaway bogs, different treatments may be necessary. It may be suitable in order to use them for forestry to cut the bog away down to the gravel, whereas, on the other hand, if you intend to use them for the enlargement of agricultural holdings, it may be wiser to suspend denudation of the peat earlier than you would if you intended to use the bog exclusively for forestry. These are matters that should be examined and determined now in good time.

I would like to dwell for a moment on the success of the briquette factories. I remember well when we took the decision to build the first of these factories at, I think, Ferbane. I remember wondering, when we made an investment of, I think, £1¼ million in the first of them, whether we would ever be able to sell the output. We took that chance. I remember we took the decision in principle to build two of them, once we were satisfied there was a market for the briquettes. That is one of the operations of Bord na Móna which is conducted in a highly competitive field and which is earning profit.

I have a kind of feeling that the socialist type of mind, represented by Deputy Dr. Browne, thinks there is something almost immoral in earning profits; whereas I feel the highest tribute you can pay to a State-operated monopoly of this kind is to be able to demonstrate that they can pay good wages, provide good employment and still make a profit sufficient to amortise their capital and to replace their machinery. That, I think, is true of the briquette manufacturing operations of Bord na Móna. I would be glad to hear from the Minister what proportion of the briquette output is now exported and what proportion it is anticipated it will be able to export in the future.

I suppose it is sometimes a bad thing and sometimes a good thing to have too long a memory. I think Deputy de Valera will share the recollection with me that, when Bord na Móna was started, Deputy Aiken, the present Minister for External Affairs, was largely responsible for it. I remember his declaring in this House that he was satisfied that sod peat sold in sacks would yet represent the second greatest industry in this country. My brief comment on that occasion was that I ventured to prophesy that at the end of two or three years we would not even have the sacks, which of course proved true.

However, the machine turf which the company is producing is a first-class fuel. But, mark you, this House should not be quite indifferent to the fact that the extent to which Bord na Móna has gone in selling machine-won turf as a domestic fuel throughout the country has had its repercussions. I have never been quite able to make up my mind whether the result has been wholly satisfactory or not. Most of us who represent rural constituencies will remember that a great many small farmers supplemented their incomes by the sale of turf. They used to cut turf and sell it in the adjoining towns. In Cavan and Monaghan, it was not so much cut turf as mud turf that was produced, and that was a fuel of the same quality as the machine-won turf of Bord na Móna today. But in the west, the north-west and the southwest, a great many small farmers supplemented their income by cutting turf and selling it in the adjoining towns.

That trade has, of course, all disappeared. A good many small farmers feel the loss of that supplementary income. It is true you have substituted automation for manual work. How far that is socially desirable in the economy of our time is something which requires consideration and reflection. I do not think you could reverse the process now because, consciously or unconsciously, we destroyed that industry of cutting turf and selling it locally, and you probably would not get people to go back into it now because it is laborious. But I do not believe we realised what we were doing when we made machine turf universally available as a domestic fuel.

In regard to the success of the briquettes, in which I rejoice, there is one factor which requires examination and which might operate to restrict, or even diminish, the market for briquettes. That is the problem, which occurs from time to time, in which architects and fire officers complain about the incidence of chimney fires as a result of the deposit left by turf in chimneys which, I suppose, were primarily designed to burn coal or wood. I cannot believe in the modern times in which we live that we cannot find some procedure whereby the soot of turf can be, so to speak, self-consumed. I know you can buy various products you put in the fire which are supposed to gasify the soot deposits ordinarily found in the chimney.

I imagine the research facilities available to Bord na Móna and to the Industrial Research Council should be able to devise some additive which would be introduced into the turf in the process of making the briquettes and which would operate to gasify or consume any deposits the turf tended to leave in the chimneys in its ordinary use as fuel. It would be a great sales point for turf briquettes if we were in a position to say that these briquettes were free from the common complaint associated with turf fires and that they contained something which abolished the tarry soot which many architects and fire officers associate with the use of turf.

Somebody here today spoke of atomic power creating an entirely new prospect. I have repeatedly tried to find from the relevant Committees of the Council of Europe, who have access to the information available in most of the 15 member countries, what is the prospect of atomic power becoming economically competitive with the sources at present available to us — hydro, coal or oil. So far, I have been wholly unable to get any reliable prognostication. But I have read recently—and I should be glad to know if the Minister has any light to shed on this problem—in the United States of America they believe themselves within the past 12 months to have made a very dramatic break through in the use of atomic power for the economic production of energy. Bearing in mind the kind of capital sums that we are expending not only in regard to Bord na Móna but to the installation of electricity generating capacity, it is not unreasonable to ask the Minister now, from the sources he has at his disposal, to give us his estimate of when it is expected that atomic power will be available on a competitive basis with traditional sources of power.

One of the interesting features about this is that the whole calculation, I understand, depends on the estimate that is made of the number of years which an atomic station can be expected to last. If you take an estimate of 20 years, it is uneconomic; if you take an estimate of 30 years, it becomes economic; if you take an estimate of 35 years, it becomes highly competitive with traditional sources, or conventional sources of power, as they call them. Nobody has yet been able to determine what is the appropriate period over which the capital invested should be written off and that is a matter on which I should like to hear the Minister if he has any guidance to give us.

We will not object to the Second Reading of this Bill but I should like to know what the true comparison is between the cost of generating electricity we actually use and how far the preference we give to turf-produced energy or energy that could be produced from coal or oil increases the end cost of the energy used generally.

It is vital to a country so undeveloped industrially as ours is, to realise how important cheap power is in the successful expansion of industry, how real a burden on our costings in export markets artificial prices for power could be, and what a very marked limitation on our diversification of industry any excess cost of power would involve us in. We need to diversify and one of the best possible inducements over and above those which we are already supplying by way of loans, grants and tax exemption, to draw industry to this country, would be to be in a position to say we have the cheapest power in the world available for those who wish to use it. It would be a difficult claim for us to make, bearing in mind countries like Scandinavia where the bulk of their power is drawn from hydro-electric sources, but the Minister will agree with me that it would be an inducement we would like to be in a position to offer and, the nearer we could get to such a claim, the better position we would be in to draw to this country new types of industries in which costings depend to a very large degree on the cost of the power they have to use.

Bord na Móna is one of the semi-State bodies which is doing a wonderful job, not alone because it is supplying solid fuel for generating stations but also because it is giving a tremendous amount of employment. We welcome any move which will help the Board to expand. One thing which it is hard to understand sometimes is that we get so much of our power from stations where the power is generated by a fuel other than native fuel. Possibly my outlook may be different from that of other Deputies but I think because the fuel is produced in Ireland and because in the production of it the economy is assisted, the price is not the main point. I suppose some time someone will be able to cost whether or not it would pay us better to scrap this type of generation by peat and have cheaper foreign fuel firing our generating stations with resultant unemployment, or whether we should try to expand.

Personally I believe we should expand to the limit the Bord na Móna services as far as generating stations are concerned. Even if it does cost more eventually, the State will gain; even if it means a certain subsidy, the State and the economy will gain. We should do this rather than attempt to depend on all foreign fuel, let it be oil or solid fuel. This is a point which cannot be stressed too much. At present Bord na Móna is going more and more into mechanisation, with the result that of necessity it must be able to produce fuel, either sod peat or any other type of fuel, and despite rising wage costs, cheaper than it did some years ago.

The Minister was the Minister—I will not say responsible for, because I do not think he would accept responsibility—when this famous pension scheme was introduced some years ago and I see that some of the money is borrowed from the Pension Fund. That is fair enough but I suggest that if the pension scheme had been a decent one, there would have been a lot more money in the fund which the Board could lend to itself at a reasonable rate thereby having money available for the purpose of expanding.

I note that the Minister says that:

The development by existing methods of our peat resources for electricity generation will be completed by about 1972 when the second of the two additional peat fired units is expected to be in operation. As by far the greater proportion of new generating plant planned to come into operation in the meantime will be based on oil, the proportion of total generating capacity of the ESB based on peat will have fallen to about 25 per cent by 1972.

Does the Minister mean by that that in fact we are coming towards the end of our resources as far as peat is concerned? If that is so, the position is serious. It is very serious for the midlands where the economy is based on the bog.

Many years ago a person described as a bogman was supposed to be somebody who was not very far advanced, socially or otherwise. The modern bogman is quite a technician in many ways and socially is as high as or higher than many workers in this country. It is true that, mainly through the fact that there were good industrial relations between the Board, particularly in the latter years, and the trade unions operating for the men, the rates of wages and conditions have improved very much.

The Minister's statement that the generating capacity of the ESB, based on peat, will have fallen to about 25 per cent by 1972 is a very serious matter: it is only less than seven years away. Perhaps the Minister would give us some further information about this, or is there any way in which it can be counteracted? With modern machinery the Board should be able to reassess the value of many of the bogs which they passed over in the early years as not big enough to work and, therefore, abandoned. Some of them were used for sod peat for a short time and abandoned. Some of them may still be used by local people for sod peat but if they are at all close to works which are in existence, I think every effort should be made to bring them into operation in conjunction with the existing works.

The whole question of employment —I am concerned mainly with employment—with Bord na Móna is bound up in this. While I said that we are prepared to give full support to any reasonable scheme for raising money in order to allow Bord na Móna to develop, if it means that they will go out of existence in a relatively short time or reduce very much the amount of work they are doing, the matter will have to be further considered.

Bogs are going on for 25 to 30 years.

I am wondering at the Minister's statement.

That was the proportion of power derived from peat production. Consumption is going up. The total number of bogs are being employed. There will have to be so much more oil power because there are not the bogs. Therefore, the total amount of power derived from peat will fall in the future but that does not mean that the bogs will disappear.

I appreciate the Minister's statement that the bogs are being used to full capacity but are there not bogs in the country which were tested by Bord na Móna many years ago and which are not being used because it was felt that they were too small? Can they not be tested again with the object of having them brought into line?

The other point which the Minister might consider is that one of the snags in Bord na Móna employment is the fact that while they do employ a number of skilled operatives all the year round, they require, and will, I suppose, require for a considerable time, a big number of casuals in the turf harvest season and then, when they are finished with their harvest, there is no other employment available for those people. Would the Minister again consider discussing with Bord na Móna this question of the utilisation of cutaway bog? I am sure it can be used and, possibly, in years to come, the product of it might be used to continue the operations of Bord na Móna itself.

I should like to join with the Minister in congratulating the staff of the Board on the excellent job they have done. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that, from the top management right down to the lowest worker on the bogs, they are doing a work which can truly be described as of national importance. I only hope the Board will continue to do this work for very many years longer than the 25 years the Minister has mentioned.

As the Minister said, the success of the first public issue of stock in May last was an example of the confidence of the public in the Board. Let us hope that that confidence will continue. Finally, may I say to the Minister that, having had a couple of years to think over the matter, maybe he would again look at this awful pensions scheme which has been presented to the employees and see if something can be done about it?

Nearly everybody agrees that Bord na Móna has done a good job of work and that the money allocated by this House was money well invested. It was contended by some persons at the time that there was a high element of risk in advancing such large sums of money to a comparatively untested and inexperienced young Board. Time, however, has borne out the fact that the type of development which Bord na Móna undertook has yielded good results. Quite a number of us who come from areas where Bord na Móna operate will testify to that fact.

Some Deputies referred to desirable trends which could now be initiated by Bord na Móna. One point concerned employment. Indeed, one would readily agree with the point that employment by Bord na Móna is at best seasonal and that in bad years some of their employees are hard hit to keep going.

The point I wish to make—we are all well aware of it—is that, having regard to the type of work those men are engaged on, having regard to our peculiarity of climate, it is not very easy for the Board to make provision against risk of unemployment or intermittent employment during certain times of the year. Accordingly, it would be very desirable that the whole matter would be examined so that if we were to have subsidiary development by the Board at least reasonable employment should be given constantly to employees who have rendered good service to date.

The point was also made that one could contrast the activities of the Board nowadays with the type of private turf production which obtained in Ireland in years gone by, before the advent of Bord na Móna. It is pointless at this stage to return to those days. Times have changed and nowadays mechanisation has got to play its part to the full. Were it not for the fact that such an organisation as Bord na Móna evolved during the years of transition we would be out of it completely now in so far as turf development is concerned.

Reference was made to drainage by the Board. I come from an area where in recent years Bord na Móna have developed a number of bogs but I am not aware that complaints from farmers involve the allegation that drainage activities by the Board have interfered with neighbouring farms in any way. On the contrary, in recent years in the midlands the Board have developed a number of bogs and in so doing have carried out large-scale drainage to the mutual advantage of both the Board and the farming community in the neighbourhood.

It is generally agreed that we should as far as possible foster home products. The point was made that the relative merits of the costings of oil, coal and turf should be examined in regard to the production of power. Nobody will disagree with that argument; no one will contest the point that costings should be taken of all sources from which power might be expected to be derived, costings that would give some idea of the cost of the end product. We must always bear in mind, however—I think Deputy Tully mentioned it—that we should, even at the risk of slightly higher costs, promote the development of our own resources. That is to say, we should prefer power from the bogs or from our rivers, even if it resulted in higher cost, to power from imported products. Hardly anybody will contest the point that power at present in this country is comparatively cheap.

During the past 20 years Bord na Móna have been engaged in large-scale development and the current produced is reasonably priced, provided we can keep it going and providing Bord na Móna are able to guarantee output to the ESB and to the other concerns who buy power from them. I do not wish to widen the scope of the debate. Like other Deputies who have spoken, I trust the money the Board require will be forthcoming, whether it be in the shape of public issues or otherwise, so that the work of the Board, even on the smaller bogs, will continue until such time as all our bog and river resources are harnessed.

I should like to take this opportunity to ask the Minister a question. I should like to have the position in my area and in, perhaps, other areas clarified in connection with the transport of ground limestone.

That has nothing to do with the Bill.

The transport of it has.

The subsidisation and transport of ground limestone.

This is the Turf Development Bill, 1965.

The Deputy is referring to the factory which was to be established a few years ago in regard to ground limestone and turf mould.

Minister for Transport and Power to conclude.

I want to thank the House for the manner in which they welcomed the Bill. I do not think I need follow Deputy Dr. Browne far in regard to the argument in connection with socialism and our attitude towards State companies. My attitude is that there is no reason for the State to intervene unless the State can do a better job than private enterprise. It is simply a matter of argument between Deputy Dr. Browne, members of the Opposition and myself as to the occasions on which the State should intervene.

I would not believe there is the faintest reason for nationalising the women's clothing business. Deputy Dr. Browne referred to the fact that the CIO reports show deficiencies in private enterprise industries. There are deficiencies in State industries all over the world. In the women's clothing industry, for example, exports have grown from something like £50,000 in the early 1950's to over £6 million in the past year. That is an illustration of private enterprise operating very successfully. I doubt if Deputy Dr. Browne would nationalise the women's clothing industry even if he had the opportunity once he saw the objections to so doing. I do not think I need go any further into this argument.

We intend to exploit all the economically usable bogs. Bord na Móna gives employment and saves considerable sums in foreign exchange. It is the policy of the Government, as I have said, to allow Bord na Móna to produce to the utmost on the basis that the price of the product is reasonable —that it is able to repay its capital and pay interest at the same time on the capital issued to it. This it is doing.

Deputy Tully expressed the hope that we might find some other method of exploiting bogs that are regarded as unsuitable. Bord na Móna is constantly examining new methods of exploitation. At the moment, the Board have reported to me that there are bogs to be developed and re-developed before 1972. They have got to the end of their programme. If they discover some better method of exploitation between now and 1972, there may be a change in the position. We do not believe in subsidising Bord na Móna. We think it should repay interest and principal, and at the same time provide fuel for the public, where it competes with coal upon which we cannot impose a tariff from Great Britain, and supply the ESB at a reasonable price.

I have already dealt with the statement I made that the proportion of total power produced from turf will be reduced 25 per cent in future years. That does not mean that Bord na Móna will not go ahead. In actual fact, in 1963-64 they produced 1.6 million tons of milled peat and in the next few years they hope to reach the figure of 2.4 million tons, assuming production will be increasing. Of course, the consumption of electricity has also increased. Rates have varied between eight, nine, ten and 11 per cent in the past few years and more power is to be produced. A programme is being planned up to 1970-72 for the maximum use of our turf resources and equally for the construction of generating stations using oil. It has been planned on a basis acceptable to both Bord na Móna and the ESB, so that Bord na Móna can continue to develop the bogs not yet prepared for production, knowing that there is a definite plan, so that the largest amount of steady employment that is possible can be given in the circumstances.

A number of Deputies referred to cutaway bogs where Bord na Móna have ceased operations. In actual fact, the area is very small, indeed, which would be suitable for use either as agricultural land or for forestry. There is a bog at Lyracrompane which, I understand, will be used for forestry. That is the largest area of cutaway bog where Bord na Móna have ceased operations. Bord na Móna and Foras Talúntais are investigating the possible development of bigger areas that will become available as the bogs become used up. No decision has been arrived at. As Deputies know, there are two alternatives. One is to provide agricultural land and make use of it, as has been revealed by some of the experiments at Glenamoy. On the other hand, there is the alternative of planting unused bogs with trees, but that matter is for consideration.

Deputy MacEoin referred to the valuable production of briquettes. Bord na Móna will expand production in the next four years, bearing in mind whatever marketing advice they can get as to demand and also bearing in mind changes in the various forms of fuel everywhere. I think they have taken an optimistic but, nevertheless, realistic attitude in their planning for further briquette production.

Deputy Dillon raised the question of chimney fires. I understand that Bord na Móna briquettes do not give rise to chimney fires as a result of deposits left in chimneys. I am glad to say I have had no complaints whatever from the public as a whole, so that the occurrence of chimney fires from briquettes must be pretty rare. As the Deputy knows, there are various kinds of grates and stoves suitable for the burning of turf and the ordinary grates can be adapted for that purpose. Existing grates can be altered and there are on the market at the present time a number of grates suitable for turf burning.

Deputy Dillon pointed out that the cost of electricity from turf was a matter for consideration and that we should be prepared to give figures in that regard. Actually, I have given the figures to the House on a number of occasions but for Deputy Dillon's benefit I shall repeat them, and I shall quote comparative costs for the production of electricity using various types of fuel for the year ending 31st March, 1963: cost per unit sent out from the Shannon hydro station, 0.377d; the Erne hydro station, 0.544d; the Liffey hydro station, 0.807d; the Lee hydro station 1.056d; the Clady hydro station, 1.715d.

The cost for the production of electricity from sod peat stations is: Lanesborough, 1.137d; Portarlington, 1.200d.; Allenwood, 1.140d. Four 5 MW stations in west of Ireland, 1.849d. With regard to the milled peat stations, the cost of milled peat is somewhat lower than it is from the sod peat stations: Ferbane, 1.161d; Rhode, 1.083d; In contrast to that, the cost of electricity from the Ringsend coal-oil station is 0.785d, and from the Marina station, 0.839d. The cost from the North Wall oil station is 1.652d. As Deputies can see, water power will always be the cheapest. After that comes coal and oil, followed by milled peat and then by soft peat.

Deputy Dillon referred to the necessity for maintaining the lowest possible costs for electricity for industry. It is very hard to make exact comparisons into the cost of electricity because of the different ways tariffs are prepared in different countries but I can say, without contradiction, that the cost of electricity in this country compares favourably with the cost in Great Britain. That is as far as I can say. Deputy Dillon will be aware, of course, that industries commencing in this country get a grant from An Foras Tionscal and exemptions are given from income tax on profits from exported goods. I have not received a complaint that the cost of electricity is inhibiting industrial development.

Deputy MacEoin and Deputy Tully referred to employment and the fact that unfortunately employment on the bogs is seasonal. Deputy MacEoin asked for figures for the breakdown of the various numbers employed. Last year I gave this as 5,300. The answer is a minimum of 4,000 people are employed all the year round and a maximum of 6,000 are employed at the height of the season. The average of 5,300 represents the evaluation of those two sets of figures.

Deputy Dillon asked about exports of briquettes. Bord na Móna exported last year 22,000 tons of briquettes and plan to increase exports to 50,000 tons a year so they are making progress in that regard. In the year 1963-64, there was an export of milled peat to Great Britain for use in various industrial applications amounting to 9,690 tons, including milled peat admixed with coal for the production of superior class coke.

The Minister will remember a factory was opened in Drogheda. It employed two men for 18 months and then closed down.

I am sorry to hear that. Deputy Dillon asked about atomic power. The progress in regard to atomic power stations is quite evident and every now and then we hear of a break-through in relation to production costs. We do not believe it is possible that an atomic power station will be opened in this country for at least ten years, and possibly longer. I understand one of the major problems is that atomic reaction must operate for 24 hours a day on full load. Therefore, we would have to have a very high consumption before any present atomic reaction could possibly be remunerative. I might add that the ESB in keeping a careful watch on all developments in the atomic field and the House can be confident a careful watch is being kept on development in regard to that matter.

Deputy Tully referred to the Bord na Móna pension scheme which he considers is not satisfactory.

It is shocking.

It is based on actual contributions from the employer and the men, which were agreed after very considerable debate and long discussions. When the social welfare benefit is added to the pension scheme, it is not so bad, although it could be better.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 23rd March, 1965.
Top
Share