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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 10 Mar 1965

Vol. 214 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £11,942,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, and of certain other Services administered by that Office, and for payment of a Grant in Aid.

The net Estimate of £18,727,000 for my Department is shown in the Estimates volume as £3,661,000 greater than last year's. But when allowance is made for the Supplementary Estimate of £2,816,000, voted earlier this month, the actual increase is £845,000. Of that amount, £150,000 arises in the grant-in-aid to Radio Éireann. Accordingly, the net increase for the services directly provided by my Department is £695,000.

When allowance is made for the provision of £3,679,000 in the Supplementary Estimate, the amount required for next year is £662,000 less than in the current year. The amount required is smaller, not because of any reduction in the Department's staff or in the scale of its activities, but, because in 1964/65, we have had not only to meet the full cost of the ninth round and various status increases but also to make large payments relating to 1963/64 where settlements had retrospective effect. For instance, an arbitration award made in November last had retrospective effect to October, 1963. The actual reduction in expenditure will not, however, be as large as the figures I have given would indicate. This Estimate had to be prepared quite some time ago, as Deputies will understand and, since then, a number of claims were settled and others are still in process of being dealt with. We were able to include provision for some of these claims in the Supplementary Estimate, which was prepared later than this Estimate. Unless we can effect savings to meet wage settlements not provided for in this Estimate, a Supplementary Estimate will be needed later on. I would expect it to be relatively small, but it would affect the comparison I have made.

So far as staff numbers are concerned, Deputies can see from the figures given in the volume that provision is being made for 571 more heads, as compared with this year. The additional staff is mainly required for the expanding telephone service—either on the enginering side for construction and maintenance work or on the operating side to deal with the growing volume of traffic.

When allowance is made for the £65,000 provided in the Supplementary Estimate, the increase on Subhead B for travelling and incidental expenses amounts to £24,000, mainly due to larger provisions for savings publicity and for various incidental expenses.

The increase over 1964/65, on Subhead C, accommodation and building charges, after allowing for a saving of some £119,000 for which credit was taken in the Supplementary Estimate, is £153,000. This is mainly attributable to expenditure on buildings which we had expected to have to meet in the current year, but which will not arise until next year, to expenditure on additional accommodation for engineering staff, and to higher recoupments to the Valuation Office for payments in lieu of rates.

The increase of £126,000 on Subhead E, postal and general stores, over 1964/65 is mainly attributable, in nearly equal parts, to the expansion of the postal motor fleet, and to a change in the incidence of accounts for stationery and other office requisites that will result in larger payments during next year.

The increase over 1964/65 on Subhead F, engineering stores and equipment, after allowing for a saving of £335,000 for which credit was taken in the Supplementary Estimate is £1,640,000 and is mainly required to meet the needs of the expanding Telephone Capital development programme, and the maintenance of the ever-growing system. In addition, £100,000 is included for an extension to the automatic telex exchange to cater for additional subscribers, and £250,000 for conveyor, heating and lighting installations at the new Central Sorting Office in Dublin.

The increase of £426,000 on Subhead G, Telephone Capital Repayments, is the result of the rapidly growing capital investment in the telephone service.

An amount equivalent to the net broadcasting licence fee revenue from television and sound licences is transferred to Radio Éireann under Subhead K, Grant equivalent to net receipts from broadcasting licence fees (Grant-in-Aid), which shows an increase over 1964/65 of £150,000, after allowing for £50,000 provided in the Supplementary Estimate. We expect a growth in the revenue from combined licences as more people get television sets. Perhaps I should explain that, pending the introduction later this year of legislation amending the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, the grant-in-aid is being calculated by reference to the basis set out in that Act.

Under Subhead T—Appropriations in Aid—the increase over 1964/65, allowing for approximately £569,000 provided for in the Supplementary Estimate, is £1,027,000. Additional recoveries from Telephone Capital funds in respect of the enlarged telephone development programme amounting to £1,050,000, offset by some minor variations on other items, are responsible.

It may be opportune at this point to draw attention to the Supplementary Estimate for £10 for 1964/65 which is being taken with the Estimate. Expenditure of approximately £15,000 will be incurred this year on a project to provide telecommunication circuits by way of a satellite system. Deputies may remember that in introducing the Estimate for 1964/65 I mentioned this project. The expenditure will be borne ultimately on Telephone Capital Funds and sufficient savings are expected to be available from other provisions to cover the expenditure. Because, however, of the somewhat novel nature of the expenditure, I have thought it advisable to bring it specially to the notice of the House by way of a token Supplementary Estimate. I will have more to say about the satellite project when I am dealing with the telephone service generally later on.

Postal traffic continued at a high level during 1964. The total volume of letter mail was much the same as in 1963 and Christmas postings reached a new record, slightly higher than in the previous year; but parcel traffic declined by 8 per cent.

In the foreign post, first-class and second-class outgoing mail increased by 5 per cent and there were some substantial increases under certain headings; parcel traffic was up by 11 per cent and second-class mail to North America by 39 per cent.

Arrangements were made to accelerate the motorisation of collection and delivery work in areas where conditions were favourable. During the year 80 posts were converted to motor working as compared with 26 in 1963. In view of the high cost of rural mail services in relation to the number of items handled, it is important that the cost per item should be reduced as much as possible. One way of achieving this is to enable postmen to cover much wider areas by use of motor transport where it is economic to do so. In order to determine as far as practicable the scope for the economic use of motorised services, a special countrywide survey is at present in progress. All the costs of conveyance of mail have been under close examination with a view to offsetting the effect of various factors which would otherwise raise the provision under Subhead D substantially. By revision of existing arrangements it has been found practicable to absorb these increases. The additional provision of less than 2 per cent under Subhead D as compared with last year is intended to cover payments for anticipated increase in foreign traffic. It is expected that this extra expenditure will be more than covered by additional revenue.

I mentioned last year that motor scooters were being introduced experimentally on certain rural delivery services. It is too soon yet to reach any firm conclusions about their general suitability but experience of the working of the machines to date has been sufficiently encouraging to warrant an extension of the trials and this is being arranged.

A number of small uneconomic subpost offices were closed on the occurrence of vacancies.

Contracts have been placed for the installation in the new Central Sorting Office in Sheriff Street, Dublin, of the most modern kinds of mail handling equipment, including parcel and packet sorting machines, conveyor bands and mechanical elevators. Arrangements have also been made for the installation of mechanical mail conveyors at the Cork and Limerick Sorting Offices. All these devices will contribute to the more efficient, speedy and economical handling of the mails.

The public response to the campaign for the use of Dublin postal district numbers continues to be gratifying. About 64 per cent of the mail now delivered in Dublin carried the postal district number.

Following the successful introduction in the GPO and at St. Andrew Street Post Office of letter-boxes with two apertures—one for "Dublin Only", the other for "All Other Places"— similar boxes will be provided in other parts of the central city area. Erection of the boxes will begin this year. The co-operation of the public in posting their correspondence in the appropriate aperture will be valuable in reducing the sorting peaks in the evenings. In this way the public will help to ensure that outgoing mails will meet despatching deadlines.

I have received a preliminary report from the Stamp Design Advisory Committee. Designs for the proposed new permanent series of stamps will be sought during the coming year.

Special postage stamps were issued in 1964 to commemorate Wolfe Tone and to mark Ireland's participation in the New York World's Fair. In conjunction with other member-countries of the European Conference of Postal and Telecommunication Administrations, we issued another "Europa" stamp in September last.

During the coming year it is proposed to issue special stamps to commemorate the centenary of the founding of the International Telecommunications Union and the birth of William Butler Yeats. We will also bring out a further "Europa" stamp and a stamp to mark 1965 as International Co-operation Year. This latter project is sponsored by the United Nations on the occasion of the 20th anniversary of its foundation.

A series of special stamps will be produced next year in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the 1916 Rising.

The total number of telegrams handled continued to decline, the estimated fall of 100,000 to 1,460,000 being about the same as that experienced in the previous year. The number of foreign telegrams, incoming and outgoing, was up by 21,000. Despite the overall drop in telegraph traffic, revenue from telegrams was up by about £54,000 mainly because of the increased charges.

The continuing decline in telegraph traffic has enabled economies to be effected. When the teleprinter automatic switching system was completed in 1958 there were 29 transmitting offices. Since then it has become possible to cease teleprinter working at five of those offices and further economies are in prospect.

Last year I reported the introduction of the Gentex service whereby telegrams could be transmitted more speedily by direct connection between this country and Belgium, The Netherlands, Germany and Luxembourg. The service has now been extended to include France and it is hoped to bring more continental countries within its scope during the next few years.

The Telex service which has operated on a manual exchange since it began in December, 1955 was converted to automatic working in October last. Because of the limited capacity of the manual exchange the connection of new subscribers was suspended from July, 1963 until the automatic exchange was brought into service. Since then, those who had applied in 1963 have been given service. It is hoped to deal with the 1964 applications within the next few months—except those which entail exceptional line work—and the 1965 applications as soon as possible after that. The capacity of the existing automatic exchange is slightly under 400 but an order for an extension to increase its capacity to cater for over 900 subscribers was placed in March, 1964 and is due for completion towards the end of this year.

The conversion of the Telex service to automatic working in October last coincided with a reduction in the rental charges by 10/- per mile up to 200 miles. Moreover, where under the manual system calls were charged for in accordance with international practice, on the basis of a minimum of three minutes and pro rata per minute thereafter, now subscribers obtaining calls automatically buy time in 2d. units, the amount of time varying with the distance of the call. Subscribers can, therefore, save substantially on short calls to European countries.

We now have Telex service with 77 countries—three more than last year. Over the year, internal telex traffic dropped slightly but traffic to Great Britain and to other countries increased substantially. It is estimated that telex revenue increased from £88,000 to £105,000.

The use of radiotelephone equipment for communication between fixed and mobile stations is proving popular. The number of business radio licences increased by 21 per cent to 212 since last year and there are now 1,594 stations.

The telephone service continued to expand during 1964. The total number of calls made was over 190 million, an increase of 11.4 million on the previous year. There was a record increase of 2.7 million, or 15.4 per cent, in the number of trunk calls.

Exchange development was accelerated during the year. Forty-three manual exchanges were converted to automatic working, eight new exchanges were opened and an additional 180 were enlarged. The work of installation of automatic equipment was advanced at many other points, including several important centres, with the result that automatic working was recently introduced at Shannon Airport and will be introduced in the next few months at Portlaoise, Tullamore and Athy. In the coming financial year new automatic exchanges will be opened at a number of further centres, including Arklow, Carlow, Ennis, Clara, Athboy and Wicklow. In the Dublin area new exchanges at Blanchardstown, Finglas and Phibsboro are nearing completion.

As a result of the policy adopted in recent years, which I have repeatedly mentioned in this House and outside it, of concentrating on improving the service and, in particular, the trunk service, even at the cost of slowing down the rate of connection of new subscribers' lines, the past year has shown spectacular progress in the provision of trunk circuits. Some 2,150 additional circuits were brought into service, almost double the number for 1963 and representing about 20 per cent in total circuit capacity. Most of the additions, comprising 47,000 miles of circuiting, were provided by means of new cables or additional equipment for existing cables, and radio links; and some 2,500 miles of open-wire circuits were replaced by high quality circuits in cable or in radio links.

Major trunking schemes were completed in Counties Kerry and Limerick, providing greatly increased outlets for these areas as well as, of course, improving the local service. The most important cable links established were between Tralee-Killarney-Killorglin, Tralee-Limerick, Limerick-Shannon Airport and Limerick-Rathkeale, and schemes linking Limerick-Tipperary and Limerick-Kilmallock were well advanced. Radio links were brought into service from Limerick to Tralee and from Limerick to Athlone.

Much progress was made in other parts of the country as well. Main cabling schemes were completed linking Dublin-An Uaimh-Ceanannus Mór, Athlone-Ballinasloe, Galway-Tuam, Clonmel-Cahir, Clonmel-Fethard, and at a number of other places. Radio links were brought into service between Dublin and Wicklow and between Wicklow and Arklow. Several other underground trunking schemes were substantially advanced. In addition extra circuits were provided on most of the main routes and aerial cable schemes were completed on a large number of lesser routes.

In the areas affected by the completed schemes and in many other places the trunk service has been raised to a high standard. There are, however, several parts of the country where the service is still not satisfactory, and priority will continue to be given to the work of raising the standard in these areas. Some major underground cabling schemes were launched during the year which are needed to give a first rate service to Counties Cavan and Monaghan, Mayo, Sligo and Donegal, and to West Cork. These involve very extensive work estimated to cost over £1½ millions and cannot be completed in less than two to three years time; but some advance circuits will become available before then, and everything possible will be done to maintain a reasonable standard of service in the meantime.

In addition to the improvements in the internal service, 46 extra crossChannel circuits were provided, and the provision of a further 48 has been arranged. The total number of circuits to Britain will then be over 350. The establishment of a new cross-Channel route, which will have a capacity of 800 circuits or more, is under negotiation. When compared with the 24 circuits that we had in 1945, these figures give a good picture of the growth that has taken place.

The concentration of effort on trunking work necessarily limited the number of new telephones that could be provided. The number connected was 13,726 and a further 2,330 were having attention at the end of 1964. The waiting applications then, including cases in course of installation, totalled 13,215, which was an increase of about 1,600 on the previous year. I regret very much this increase in the waiting list, but our total resources, although being steadily increased, are unfortunately insufficient to enable the arrears on all phases of the service to be overtaken together. Meanwhile, I appreciate the understanding that has been shown generally by the public in regard to the situation, even by those who might reasonably have grown impatient of the delays attending their applications for telephone service.

The progress made in building up the organisation to deal with the greatly increased demand arising from the increased volume of business and higher standard of living in the community can be measured in terms of money and staff numbers. Expenditure on telephone capital works, that is, additions to the system as distinct from maintenance, in the past five years has been as follows:- 1960/61, £2,164,299; 1961/62, £2,411,700; 1962/ 63, £3,673,540; 1963/64, £4,606,782; and 1964/65, £6,200,000 (approx.) and expenditure for 1965/66 is estimated at £7,250,000.

In the same period the strength of the engineering force has risen as follows:— 1960/61, 2,644; 1961/62, 2,732; 1962/63, 2,854; 1963/64, 3,290; 1964/65, 3,478; and 1965/66, 3,729 (estimated).

It may be particularly interesting to note that the annual intake of technician trainees, who are, in effect, the apprentices in training for the skilled work below professional engineer level, has been raised to 100 a year, and we now have 299 of these youths being trained to provide for the future needs of the service, as compared with 87 five years ago. This increase could not have been effected without the willing and ready co-operation of the vocational schools organisations in Dublin, Cork and Limerick.

In addition to building up our own work-force, we have greatly increased the volume of work given to contractors so as to enlarge total output to the maximum extent possible. Some Deputies last year expressed fears that in increasing our engineering workforce we ran the risk of not having enough work for them when the present arrears are cleared. I have no fears on this score. The telephone service in this country has been growing rapidly in recent years but the scope for development is virtually unlimited, subject to the necessary funds being made available for expansion. Our rate of telephones per 1,000 of the population is still very low and according as we improve the service and eliminate the waiting list the attractions the service offers and rising standards of living will continue to increase the demand for telephones. I am fully satisfied of this and we must plan and are planning to meet all such demands.

On the manual operating side, despite the conversion of exchanges to automatic working and the widespread introduction of Subscriber Trunk Dialling, the number of day telephonists employed has been substantially increased and some 1,486 are now employed as compared with 946 five years ago. We have been generous in the employment of telephonists so that when subscribers were experiencing difficulty through the shortage of trunk lines or equipment, at least they should have ready access to the help of a telephonist.

In replying to the debate on the Estimate for the current year on 14th May last, I said (Vol. 209, Col. 1545) that in about a year and a half from then, that is, November, 1965, we should be in a position to deal more vigorously with the waiting list for telephones, and I indicated that we would at that stage make a fresh appraisal of the situation. I am happy to say that I hope to improve on that forecast and that it will be possible to begin within a few months to devote an increased part of our resources to subscriber installation work. My intention is to offer service to as many as possible of those people whose applications are longest on hands. Unfortunately, many of these older cases involve a great deal of construction work and their clearance will limit the total number of lines that can be provided. Nevertheless, I am confident that the total connections in 1965/66 will substantially exceed those made in the current year.

Before leaving the telephone service, I wish to give some details of an important recent development affecting it to which I referred in my review of the subheads, namely, the prospect of getting transatlantic circuits by way of a satellite system.

When introducing the Estimate for 1964/65, I mentioned my Department's interest in the developments regarding communication satellites, because of our growing telephone traffic with North America, and I said that if full agreement could be reached with the United States and Canada we, together with other European administrations, intended to contribute capital for a proposed global commercial satellite system. The system envisaged included a high-altitude space satellite over the Atlantic, linking ground stations on either side.

Full accord was reached in July, 1964, and Agreements, copies of which were presented to the Dáil by the Department of External Affairs, were signed on behalf of Ireland in October. Under these Agreements Ireland will contribute to the capital cost of the space section of the system, will be allotted an appropriate proportion of its capacity and will, in effect, be entitled to transatlantic circuits at cost. Our contribution is expected to be about £250,000. Payments will be made monthly over a period of four years according as the expenditure is incurred. A total of about £15,000 will be paid under this head during 1964/65 and a further £50,000 in 1965/66. These payments are being made out of the Vote for my Department and the Vote will be recouped from Telephone Capital Funds.

In order to gain access to the space section of the system, telephone circuits from Ireland must be routed through a ground station in Europe. The nearest such station is the British one at Goonhilly Downs, Cornwall. The British Post Office have agreed in principle to allow us to use the facilities of Goonhilly but the terms have yet to be agreed. Normally we would expect to pay a rental in respect of each of the circuits we require. The British Post Office have offered an attractive alternative under which we would contribute towards the capital cost of the earth station and would have rights of use of a proportion of its capacity.

In effect, this would mean that we would become part owners of the station and would share the costs, risks, profits and losses. We would contribute £250,000 approximately spread over the next two or three years, plus about £10,000 per annum in respect of running costs. In the early stages the cost per circuit on this basis would be high but, as traffic grows and the capacity of the system expands, the cost per circuit is expected to fall substantially. Accordingly, provided the system of satellite communications is a commercial success, it is felt that, in the long term, investment in Goonhilly should be well worthwhile because it would enable us to get at cost price the ever-increasing number of telephone circuits we need across the Atlantic. It is, therefore, proposed to discuss the matter further with the British Post Office and, if full agreement can be reached, to invest in Goonhilly on the lines of their offer.

During 1964 deposits in the Post Office Savings Bank amounted to £25.8 millions, and withdrawals to £22.8 millions, showing in both cases substantial increases over the previous year. The total balance, including interest, due to depositors had been £101.9 millions at the 31st December, 1963, and at the end of 1964 it was £107.5 millions.

Sales of Savings Certificates during 1964 amounted to £6.2 millions, and repayments, including interest, to £3.5 millions. At the 31st December, 1964, the value of principal remaining invested was £33.7 millions, an increase of £3.5 millions during the year, compared with an increase of £2.1 millions during 1963.

Post Offices throughout the country continue to co-operate in the issue of Prize Bonds and have been responsible for collecting over £12 millions out of the total of £41 millions worth of Prize Bonds issued up to this year.

The Savings Committee must be given credit for a great share in the continued buoyancy of the national savings movement, which is so important to our general financial stability, and its members deserve our warmest thanks for their valuable work.

There is a continuing growth in the volume of funds handled by the Department's remittance services. The total value of money orders and postal orders issued during 1964 was £27.6 millions, an increase of £2.9 millions over 1963.

Social Welfare and other agency payments during 1964 totalled £39 millions, an increase of about £5 millions on the preceding year.

During 1964 a new Post Office at Wicklow and a new District Sorting Office at Finglas, Dublin, were opened. Major improvement works, including the provision of attractively designed public offices, were completed at Arklow and Ennis post offices, and a new telephone exchange building was erected at Carlow.

In February this year a new post office, with accommodation for an automatic telephone exchange, was opened at Ballinasloe. Work is well advanced on a new post office and automatic telephone exchange building at Youghal and on a new District Sorting Office and Automatic Telephone Exchange building to serve the Coolock/Raheny area of Dublin. The building to house the new trunk telephone exchange in Dame Court, Dublin, although delayed by the strike last year, is now making good progress. Work is also in progress on buildings for a new auto-manual telephone exchange at Tralee, for major new automatic telephone exchanges at Kilkenny, Tipperary, Wellington Road (Cork) and Wexford, and for 60 rural automatic exchanges. Tenders have been invited for the erection of a new post office at Carlow.

Work is progressing satisfactorily on the new Central Sorting Office for Dublin.

Some 47 sites have been acquired for further rural automatic exchanges, another 44 sites are in process of acquisition, and 24 more have been selected.

The number of staff provided for in the Estimate is 18,669 an increase of 571 over last year's figure, and as I have already indicated, the additional staff are required mainly for engineering and telephone operating work arising in connection with the telephone development programme.

To supplement the intake of graduate engineers through the normal Civil Service Commission competitions we have recently introduced two Scholarship Schemes—one open to Secondary School Leaving Certificate holders and the other confined to certain non-professional grades in the Engineering Branch. Under these schemes the successful candidates will attend courses of study to enable them to obtain professional engineering qualifications. Although it will be about four years before these scholarship holders qualify as engineers, I am confident that in time the schemes will be of great assistance in securing that sufficient engineers will be available for the development of the service in the future.

All Post Office grades secured a ninth round pay increase of 12 per cent with effect from 1st February, 1964, and, in addition, most grades have obtained separate pay increases as a result of status claims dealt with during the period since October, 1963. Subpostmasters also received both ninth round and status increases. The claims of only a few groups now remain to be dealt with, the biggest of these being engineering inspectors and professional engineers. The inspectors' claim will probably be heard soon by the Arbitration Board and it is hoped to resume discussions shortly at the Departmental Conciliation Council on the claim of the professional engineers. In addition, a claim for re-organisation of the technician and installer grades in the Engineering Branch is under consideration.

The Commission which I appointed in April last to enquire into certain aspects of the sub-post office system submitted its report to me recently and this is now being examined.

The five-day week which was introduced for general Civil Service grades in July, 1964, has been extended to many Post Office staff, including those in the Engineering and Stores Branches. A claim for a five-day week for other Post Office grades including Post Office clerks, telephonists and postmen, is under consideration by the Departmental Conciliation Council.

The Department continues to keep its organisation and staffing arrangements under constant and critical examination with a view to increasing efficiency and keeping the costs of its services as low as possible, and I have mentioned some of the improvements made or planned in my references to the various services.

When replying in May last to the debate on the current year's Estimate, I detailed some of the economies and improvements in methods which have been secured hitherto. Further economies continue to be yielded from such measures as the introduction of automatic data processing for savings bank and telephone accounts work. We have under active consideration at present the possibility of extending the range of uses of ADP, and in addition to what we are doing ourselves we are in communication with a number of firms of consultants on this subject.

I am glad to express in the House my thanks to all members of the Department's staff for their work throughout the past year.

The Commercial Accounts for 1963/64, the last completed year of account, have been laid on the table of the House and a summary of the results for that year and for the four preceding years is given in Appendix D to the Estimate.

In 1963/64 the Commercial Accounts showed a net deficit on all the services of £165,000. A note to the Accounts explains, however, that income amounting to £125,000, proper to 1962/63 but not ascertained in time for inclusion in the accounts for that year, was included exceptionally in the income for 1963/64. Accordingly, the true deficit on the year's working in 1963/64 was approximately £290,000. It is not possible to say yet what the outcome of the current year will be but present indications are there will be a deficit of about £300,000. Deputies may recollect that, when introducing the Estimate for the current year and explaining why increases in charges had to be made, I mentioned that even allowing for the increased income, there would probably be deficits of that order in 1963/64 and 1964/65. I am hopeful that, in the absence of unfavourable developments, we should about break even in the coming financial year.

It has been, as Deputies know, the settled policy of Ministers that, in the long term, the Post Office should pay its way on a commercial basis. That it has not done so last year and in the current year is a consequence of the unprecedented rise in staff costs over the last eighteen months. Although this rise has imposed a severe strain on the finances of the Department and necessitated substantial increases in charges, the Minister for Finance, I, and the Government, have taken the view that Post Office staffs should receive what were determined to be fair rates of pay for their services.

It is obvious, however, that the financial position of the Department will require careful watching. The deficit of £300,000 on an income estimated this year at over £17 millions is not unduly disturbing, having regard to the policy to which I have referred of taking one year with another in assessing the financial outcome of the Post Office services, and because unless further adverse changes occur I hope that a modest profit will be earned in the next few years. Nevertheless, any indication that the situation was worsening would give cause for grave concern. There is no margin, at present, for absorbing any additional costs which may arise from causes outside the Department's control, and so high a proportion of our costs consists of wages, salaries and related payments— about 66 per cent of the total currently —that very substantial economies can be achieved only over a long period.

Apart from wage increases there are other factors making for higher costs. Higher pay rates are resulting in higher retirement payments. The concentration on the expansion and improvement of the substructure of the telecommunications network—exchanges, circuits, etc.—has necessitated heavy investments of capital, on which interest has to be paid and depreciation provided, but which may not bring in proportionate additional revenue for some time. The growth of cities and suburbs has necessitated the provision of more postmen, delivery offices, etc. in these areas, although the decline in rural population, does not enable proportionate reductions to be made in the staff and offices serving them.

We must, therefore, continue to make every improvement possible in the efficiency of our methods and organisation, promote the development of services likely to give an adequate return on expenditure, and review carefully any obviously uneconomic services.

As in past years I propose to confine my remarks to more important matters concerning the Broadcasting and Television Authority's development and to those in which, as Minister, I have a statutory function.

The statutory authority for the payment of State grants under section 22 of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960, will expire on 31st March, 1965. Fresh broadcasting legislation is being prepared and will be introduced as soon as possible. In the meantime the grant has been calculated on the assumption that the Oireachtas will wish that the Authority should continue to receive the net proceeds of broadcasting licence revenue for a further period. This will obviate the necessity for the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate after the new Bill has been passed.

After deducting the costs of licence collection, a sum of about £603,000 is being provided for sound broadcasting in 1965/66 and the balance is being provided for the television service. These figures take into account that £1 5s. out of each £5 licence is intended for the sound broadcasting service. The amount being provided for sound broadcasting plus sound advertising revenue will not be sufficient to meet the expenditure on that service in 1965/66, particularly in view of pay increases and increased costs. The deficit will have to be made good out of the Authority's general revenue.

Under the Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Act, 1964, the limit for repayable capital advances specified in section 23 (2) (b) of the Act of 1960, namely £2 million, was increased to £3 million. While the full amount has been earmarked for specific capital purposes, the Authority has not as yet found it necessary to avail itself of any of the capital provided under the 1964 Act. So far this year it has happily been able to meet its capital needs from its own resources. In this connection Deputies will remember that the Authority had an operating surplus of £273,000 last year. It will be some time before final figures for the current year will be available but I understand that the Authority's overall surplus is expected to be higher than last year's figure.

During the year one of the most important developments was, perhaps, the bringing into operation of some of the 12 satellite "transposers" which are intended to serve areas of poor television reception. Four of these are now in operation and serve areas in South Dublin, Cork city, Cobh and Monkstown, County Cork. I understand that the transmitter for the booster station in Monaghan will be installed shortly in a newly erected building and that testing will probably commence towards the end of this month. The Authority also hopes to have the transposers at Letterkenny and Moville in operation in a matter of months. When all 12 additional transmitters are functioning, we should have almost full nationwide coverage.

I referred last April to the decision to provide a VHF service to improve sound broadcasting coverage. I now understand that the equipment for this service is on order and, if conditions are favourable, the Authority expects it should be possible to commence broadcasting in about a year's time. The VHF aerials will be erected on the sites of the five main television transmitters—Kippure, Mount Leinster, Mullaghanish, Truskmore and Maghera and the completion of the work will depend on weather conditions experienced while the work is in progress.

I would like here to pay a tribute to the forbearance of those listeners who have had to suffer inadequate radio reception for so long. In some parts of the country interference from foreign stations was particularly bad this winter and representations have been made to the administrations concerned. I am hopeful that these representations will bear some fruit.

At present the Authority's authorised regular television transmissions, throughout the year, excluding educational programmes, are 43 hours, approximately, per week with permission to average up to 47 hours per week to allow for broadcasts in respect of special events. In June, 1964, I approved of the Authority's proposal to devote three hours per week to educational programmes during the 1964/65 school year, on condition that the resulting additional costs would be refunded to it. In October, 1964, I agreed, subject to certain conditions, to the Authority's proposal to extend television broadcasting by 2¾ hours per week for eight months of the year so as to permit of Sunday afternoon programmes.

I received a number of complaints during the year regarding the interference caused to reception of programmes by various types of electrical equipment and these were all referred to the Authority for investigation. Considerable investigation into the interference caused by industrial, scientific and medical equipment has been made by members of my advisory committee but because of the extent and nature of the problem it will be some time before a satisfactory solution can be found. I also understand that limited progress has been made, through the co-operation of television set manufacturers, in reducing the level of interference known as "line time base radiation" that is interference by TV receivers with reception of sound programmes and the question of introducing a specification for television sets is being pursued.

Deputies will recall the importance I attached to the existence of a close liaison between the Authority and the Film Censor. A working arrangement has been concluded with the Film Censor, Dr. C.A. Macken, whereby he will act as a special consultant to the Authority, but the Authority will, of course, remain fully responsible for the content of films shown on television.

A lot has been written in recent times about the activities of "pirate" broadcasting stations operating on board ships anchored outside national territories. These stations, which are financed by commercial interests, operate contrary to the provisions of the international radio regulations. They cause interference with other radio services and are gravely prejudicial to broadcasting interests. In December last the Council of Europe at a meeting of Ministers' Deputies in Paris approved of a draft Agreement which was opened for signature at Strasbourg on 20th January last. This Agreement is entitled "European Agreement for the Prevention of Broadcasts transmitted from Stations outside National Territories" and each party to the Agreement undertakes to take appropriate steps to make punishable as offences, the establishment or operation of such broadcasting stations as well as acts of collaboration knowingly performed. Such acts would include matters like the provision, maintenance or repairing of equipment; the provision of supplies, the provision of services concerning advertising for the benefit of the stations and the production etc. of advertisements. The Government recently decided that the Agreement should be signed on behalf of Ireland, subject to ratification.

I mentioned in April last that the Authority had no direct technical link with the Eurovision system although many Eurovision programmes have in fact been broadcast by taking them "off the air" from the BBC or the ITA. Additional equipment is being provided at Kippure and at the repeater station at Mohercrom, on the Sligo link, which will enable programmes to be sent or received through Belfast, where extra equipment will also be provided. Thus a direct relay link to Europe through Belfast will be available. The Authority will become a full active member of Eurovision with unrestricted access to programmes when the permanent operative link is available. I cannot say at the moment when this scheme will be completed but it is certainly a laudable step.

Supplementary Estimate No. 43 is to be taken with this Estimate.

The Minister made great play with the fact that, if you take into consideration the Supplecenary Estimate of £2,816,000 he got from the House, the actual increase is only £845,000. It was only the other day we heard about this £2,816,000 and we were surprised that that was not brought in last year in the normal way because people did know what the effects had turned out to be. We had a turnover tax which sent prices soaring so much that it was imperative that a 12 per cent rise be given at the opportune time of the Kildare and Cork by-elections and this is still portion of the bill for the Kildare and Cork by-elections.

I have no objection to the Minister coming with an increased Estimate because I have been badgering him for years especially about the telephone services. He says that they had to increase the engineering staff. Of course they had to increase the engineering staff. We knew that there were more lines being put up and more automatic stations coming into operation but there was no expansion in the installation of telephones for the ordinary people. He did not tell us how many he installed this year. I know from the reply to a question I asked here in December 12 months ago that there were some 11,000 applications for telephones outstanding and now the number has increased to 13,000, despite the penal tax in the last Budget to stop people from applying for telephones. This is the policy for expansion, if you like, but it is actually putting the brake on.

It is a good thing that the Telephone Capital Fund has gone up because there is a greater demand for telephones now and people have become telephone conscious but unfortunate people in my constituency, and in every other constituency, have been clamouring for telephones and some of them have been waiting for four or five years while the Minister's officials are fiddling away all the time. I have exhorted the Minister to increase the local staffs to instal telephones and to bring in linesmen and men from the Army who have experience in putting up field telephones. These people have the necessary skill and would be a useful addition to the Post Office staff in solving this question. I hope the Minister will do this now but I will come back to it later.

The Minister said:

Arrangements were made to accelerate the motorisation of collection and delivery work in areas where conditions were favourable. During the year 80 posts were converted to motor working as compared with 26 in 1963. In view of the high costs of rural mail services in relation to the number of items handled, it is important that the cost per item should be reduced as much as possible.

Of course a great way to effect economies is to close up post offices altogether. If people are in out of the way places, so much the better. Communications are so slow and it takes such a long time to reach the Minister's office or Deputies and have the matter brought up in Dáil Éireann, that the thing will have been established for some time and once it has been established, it will never be changed. This is the kind of practice that should be stopped. The Minister said that they liked to make the Post Office a commercial success but we must always remember that the Post Office is a service first and is there for the people. The fact that a number of small uneconomic sub-post offices have closed does not improve the service. That might save a few pounds but it is going to leave people isolated and slow down parcel post and the delivery of ordinary mails. If the people are living in isolated places, then these places will become more or less derelict towns and will be cut off.

In regard to postage stamps, we have adhered always to the small type of stamp but occasionally we broadened out and produced bigger stamps with beautiful designs. I have seen some very fine stamp collections and I have noticed that countries smaller than this were able to produce beautiful stamps of perhaps a triangular design or some unusual shape which sell in great numbers to collectors. We have had some beautiful designs on our stamps and I suggest to the Minister that they should be made a little bigger. I think they would sell much better. In this connection a series of special stamps is to be issued next year to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. I suggest to the Minister that he should advertise for designs and set up a board composed of some of his officers, people from the Arts Council, and from the National Gallery. That would create great interest and would produce a magnificent series of stamps which would be a credit to the occasion and to the country.

The total number of telegrams handled continued to decline and there was an estimated fall of 100,000 to 1,460,000. It was about the same as in the previous year. That was because the Minister put the price of a telegram up to 5/-. As Deputy Leneghan said, it is cheaper to go to the funeral now than to send a telegram. The Minister derived £54,000 from the increased charges. I remember when people used to back horses by telegram but the Minister has put that out of their heads because of the cost.

The Minister also referred to a continuing decline in telegraph traffic which has enabled economies to be effected. That is a rather defeatist statement for a Minister to make, that when you want to effect economies, you shut up something or make it decline. Might I remind the Minister that his duty and the duty of his Department is to give a service to the people and not to discourage them from using the public services?

He also referred to the capacity of the existing automatic exchange as being slightly under 400 but an order for an extension to increase this capacity to cater for over 900 subscribers was placed in March, 1964 and is due for completion towards the end of this year. That is wonderful but it is not putting in a telephone for somebody at the back of beyond who wants it. He is not bothering as to whether it is a live exchange or not. What he wants is a live telephone in his house. The Minister has not said a word about the number of telephones he has installed. I was hoping he would break that silence.

He said that 13,726 new telephones had been installed.

Where was that said? I am on page 11 and I will stand corrected if it is there.

It is on page 13.

The number was 13,726 and a further 2,330 were having attention at the end of 1964. This is wonderful. In column 323, volume 214 of Tuesday, 11th February, 1965, I asked the Minister the number of applications for telephones at present before his Department; the number waiting over one year, two years, three years and four years and the number of applications that were before the Department 12 months ago. The answer was that the number at 31st December last was 13,215.

They are coming in on me every day.

In spite of the fact that the Minister put on an extra £10 to stop them. We know that he has stepped up the section of his department dealing with telephone installations, but in spite of that the number waiting over one year was 4,536, over two years 1,237, over three years 379 and over four years 29. These must be some of the desperate people who are appealing to me.

It would cost about £1,000 each to give them a telephone.

I was thundering at the Minister's door and chasing everybody in his Department to get a phone in for a man in my constituency. A neighbour of this man further up the road had the telephone and had given it up. The wires were passing by the door of the man in whom I was interested and not even a pole was needed to get the telephone in. It took me a year and a half to do it. I was worn out and only the Minister is such a decent man, I might have gone berserk. If it had been another Minister whom we all know, the Ceann Comhairle would have had me arrested.

The Minister now has an increased Vote for this purpose. We are going to give him the money he asked for but we ask him to get on with the work. Would he find out from the Army authorities about men who have served in the Signal Corps and if any of them are leaving the Army? They would be glad to get employment in the telephone section of the Post Office and they would be an addition to the Post Office. If we are to spend this great sum of money, the only way we can get it back, in the last analysis, is from the people who use the telephone. If you are going to increase expenditure and not instal the telephones, you are going to lose the money. I have heard that our number of telephones per head of the population is the lowest in the world. We ought to get ourselves out of that position.

The Minister says:

I am quite happy to say that I hope to improve on that forecast and that it will be possible to begin within the next few months to devote an increased part of our resources to subscriber installation work.

When I came here first from Waterford many years ago, I was an innocent man and if I had heard that statement, I would have cheered with delight. I have heard that expression "a few months", used many times since. I have also heard "in a short time", "almost immediately" and many others. They all mean the same thing. It may be a year, two years, four years and even up to eight years. I would ask the Minister in replying to the debate to be more specific about this matter.

Is it not great that we are going into the satellite system? We are to spend £250,000 on it and we are to have a share in a satellite. I hope this will be a great success. It was wonderful to see the Olympic Games and the other telecasts from Rome and elsewhere. It made one feel that what Robert Emmet had said had come to pass and that at last Ireland was taking her place amongst the nations of the earth. When I read this speech first, I thought we were going to put a man in space. I wondered how we were going to do it and who the man should be.

Dealing with the matter of Saving Certificates, I have heard this Post Office man with the wonderful cajoling voice on the radio who tells us to save our money. This is the man who sells the idea of saving to the man who is preparing himself for his old age. That man saves constantly and consistently and puts his money into the Post Office, but if he goes to get a non-contributory pension when he retires, he has "had it". He may be a resident in a small town and wants to buy a little piece of land for his old age but if he does so, the Minister for Lands is ready to serve an order on him to take his farm away. When the Minister is asking people over a certain age to save, I think they should be assured that what they have put into the Post Office, into the National Exchequer, one might say, will not be counted as means, say, for the purpose of assessing means when they apply for the old age pension.

The Minister is the biggest employer in the State, employing 18,000. He has been a good employer in many cases and dreadfully bad in many more. The present Minister has done something to amend that. Temporary postmen, who might have been temporary for 40 years, were very badly paid up to recently and the subpostmasters who were running their offices and, in some cases were responsible for big sums of money, had a very small reward. The Minister was very stubborn about this but I am glad that in the long run he met them.

I see that the claim for the five-day week in Post Office grades is under consideration at conciliation level. I have not yet given an opinion on the five-day week but I think it is the most civilised idea ever introduced. I like time off and leisure. I hope that Deputies will get together sometime and try to arrange to have a five-day week. The fact that we sit here for only three days does not mean that that finishes our work.

That scarcely arises on this Estimate.

The Minister might set a good example and it is a good opportunity to mention the matter. The settled policy is that the Post Office in the long-term should pay on a commercial basis but the Minister said that it has not done so in the past year because of unprecedented rises in staff costs. This was merely the result of the stupidity of the Government in imposing the turnover tax which started a spiral of increases which the Government were unable to control. People had to get more money. The Minister hopes that a modest profit will be earned but I should not like services to be in any way curtailed to make a modest profit.

We now come to broadcasting and television. The Minister confines his remarks to the more important matters concerning the Authority, development and matters in which, as Minister, he has a statutory function. We come in here and suggest improvements in the broadcasting and television service and we comment on programmes and the Minister tells us he has no function. Yet we are asked to pass substantial sums of money. I still think the Minister has a responsibility to the House and that there should be, and must be, liaison between the Minister and the Director General. The people of Ireland are paying the piper and we are the people's representatives and we are as good a corps of opinion as the Minister or the Director can get. Deputies come from all parts of Ireland and constantly hear their constituents' opinions, apart from their own opinions.

It is sometimes enlightening to listen in a hotel or public house to the comments made when the television is on. These comments would be enlightening to the Minister and those responsible for programmes. I am glad that without being seen in these premises, I found the reaction to the political Party broadcasts is good. People want to hear them and see them.

They want to see ours at any rate.

They did not get much chance.

There was one broadcast when I heard a man say: "Turn that thing off." I am glad to say it was not my Party or the leader of the Labour Party. It is not a sixmark question to know who it was. It was not in my own constituency that I heard this.

I shall not go into the dispute between the journalistic staff and the Authority. I shall not say whether the journalists were right or wrong or whether the Director and his officials were right or wrong, but the obvious thing was that there were bound to be negotiations at some stage and, if eventually, why not at the start? The people in charge of broadcasting acted as if they were not over 21. Such things should not be allowed to happen; they should be discussed. We must come in here and discuss the nation's problems and discuss them in the open, perhaps with a good deal of heat and we must do the best we can. It was important to the Irish people to have their television news and it was most important when the dispute arose that the journalists should be heard. The day for the other kind of tactics has gone and that situation should never arise again. If, in the discussion, it turned out that the journalists were wrong, I am sure they would be the first to admit it.

In regard to programmes, this is something I have been saying for the past few years and which I propose to repeat because it is one way of getting a point across. When you keep on saying it, some newspaper may publish it and somebody will pay attention and it may even penetrate Montrose. In Radio Éireann we have a symphony orchestra and a light orchestra which are magnificent and which are a credit to the Department and Radio Éireann. I think we could go further and begin producing plays either in Montrose or Ardmore for telecasting using our fine Irish actors and actresses. Not merely would they be for home consumption but we would sell them to other countries and would be in a good position to do that under the new exchange system that has come into operation.

The record is that Mr. Hilton Edwards was employed as Producer by Telefís Éireann and people like myself who were hoping for something like this were delighted. We thought a start would be made. Nothing happened and Mr. Edwards resigned from Telefís Éireann. Our finest actors and actresses are working for the BBC where they are paid well and are constantly employed. I know they would be glad to come home and to appear in plays here in which many of them have starred at the Abbey, the Gate, or other Dublin theatres. I appeal to the Minister to do something about this. He has the power. He should approach the Director of Broadcasting and say that he would like to have the old Abbey plays revived and would recommend the setting up of a small group for the production and filming of them.

The Minister may say that many people have already seen these plays in the Abbey Theatre in the 1940s. Many did, and were delighted with them, but there are generations growing up who have never seen them and to whom they are only names. Many good plays were staged in Dublin in the 1930s by Longford Productions. Some of these plays are still produced in the country. The Irish theatre is alive in the provinces in the amateur theatre movement. Magnificent performances are given. I would direct the Minister's attention to that point.

In most remote places there is an audience for that type of play. There are people who know a great deal about production and staging. Some of these people have seldom, if ever, seen professional performances. The Abbey Theatre walked out on its obligation years ago. It could not be got out of the Queen's Theatre for all the tea in China. It is styled the National Theatre but a national theatre should make itself known to all the people by going on tour, as they used to do. The Minister should impress on them the importance of showing Irish plays to Irish people. I do not intend to labour this point. I have made it at least three times to the Minister in the House and I should like a statement from the Minister in regard to it when he is replying.

The Minister said:

I would like here to pay a tribute to the forbearance of those listeners who have had to suffer inadequate radio reception for so long. In some parts of the country interference from foreign stations was particularly bad this winter....

That is the understatement of the year. There are many areas including a pocket in the area I represent, where reception of Radio Éireann gives the impression that the set is out of order. The most awful noises and crackling are to be heard, with an Italian or some other station in the background. That has been the position for years. The Minister assured me that something would be done about it "in the near future." It has not been done yet. I would ask the Minister to give us some better assurance about this matter.

The Minister said that representations had been made to the administrations concerned and that he was hopeful that these representations would bear some fruit. I would suggest to the Minister that we have grown up. There are representatives here from other countries. The Minister should send a stiff note to the Ambassador of the country that is crowding in on us or ask his colleague, the Minister for External Affairs, to join him in sending a stiff note or carry out whatever the protocol is for serving a stiff note.

They might get a corvette after them.

They might declare war on us. The Minister said:

A lot has been written in recent times about the activities of "pirate" broadcasting stations operating on board ships anchored outside national territories. These stations, which are financed by commercial interests, operate contrary to the provisions of the international Radio Regulations. They cause interference with other radio services and are gravely prejudicial to broadcasting interests. In December last the Council of Europe at a meeting of Ministers' Deputies in Paris approved of a draft Agreement which was opened for signature at Strasbourg on 20th January last.

We have signed this Agreement. Could we not have done a right job in throwing these fellows out of the harbour in Cobh when they sent their ship here to be fitted out? The Department of Posts and Telegraphs slipped up there. We are looking for ships to build and to reconstruct. We are glad to get orders. It was a queer kind of order, that we would not like to broadcast to the world, to bring pirate ships in here to be fitted out for people who were going to flout international conventions, and to give them aid and comfort and allow them to put to sea from an Irish port out of an Irish shipbuilding yard. I am sure the officer who went over to sign that Agreement must have had his tongue in his cheek when he signed.

The Minister said that the Government recently decided that the Agreement should be signed on behalf of Ireland. Is that not great? We will send for water and wash our hands of it now.

"Subject to ratification".

Who ratifies?

Parliament will have to ratify it.

I wish you had consulted us about the ship when she was down there and we would have given you right ratification for her. I want to say a few words about Telefís Éireann. I have looked at a lot of the political Party broadcasts and the report of the Dáil and the programme called "The Hurler on the Ditch". On about three occasions they were not right for the reasons that things were taken out of context— one a glaring case against my Party and another against the Labour Party. I have seen a few of the programmes and they were magnificent. The newspapermen in the programme were magnificent when they were following their job as newspapermen, where they were the recorders of truth and were reporting what happened. These men are professionals, who know their business. When they go there to do that they are all right. The thing that I would ask for them, without discussing it with them is, for more time. I got the impression a few times when I saw them that they were racing against time and I discovered that they get very little time in which to comment on the hundreds of thousands of words uttered in the Dáil, perhaps on speeches by the Taoiseach at chamber of commerce meetings or in Bandon and other places. They have to condense the material into 1,000 or 1,200 words to cover a period of about 14 minutes. That is all wrong.

I have enormous respect for Parliament. Parliament is the most important institution in the whole sphere of public administration, and I suggest that for one night of the week the proceedings of that Parliament should be reported. It should be well reported with comment and criticism against all sides of the House. Let the newspapermen be, as they should always be, the recorders of truth. One of the things the Minister should recommend to Telefís Éireann is that the programme should have a duration of at least 20 minutes. That is not a great deal of time out of all the time allotted for programmes during the week. It is a programme in which there is great interest. I know that from going into public places when it is televised on a Sunday night. Standing in the background I notice that all the people present are listening to it; they are not distracted or saying: "Turn off that thing."

In the matter of newscasting, we have one of the best telecasters in the business in Charles Mitchell and there are other very good men as well. However, we grow tired looking at their faces. Recently the Minister's colleague came down to my constituency and opened a school there. The photographer used a lot of his film taking all these beautiful children, 1,200 or 1,400 of them. I stood in the background and thought it was wonderful. I could hear all the mothers asking the photographer: "When will they be on?", and he said: "Tonight". When the news came on, the telecaster announced that Dr. Hillery had opened the school; there was a flash on of Dr. Hillery and of the children and then, flash off. Why could we not have been shown that film of the children? I want to tell the Director of Broadcasting, through the Minister, that the ordinary people of Ireland would like to see their children on television at school functions like that or at games, and so on. Instead there is this fivesecond flash on and then you are looking at the face of the newscaster again. We see too much of the newscaster and too little of the picture. Pictures are being sent all the time from Limerick, Cork, Galway, Waterford, Donegal and other places but we get only a flash like that and it is over.

In parts of the country people are able to get the BBC or UTV and when they are televising the news, there is a good pictorial presentation of what is happening in Britain and Northern Ireland. I want to compliment Captain O'Neill on the fine job he was able to get the Irish television station to do for the Six Counties. By giving the Taoiseach a small bit of hospitality, he has got about eight hours of the time of our television station showing streets in Belfast, places in Antrim and elsewhere. The people here who have seen these programmes are carried away by the wonder of it all and Captain O'Neill will have a rush of tourists from Southern Ireland to Northern Ireland.

One of the things the Minister should examine is the fact that Northern Ireland is one of the few countries or practically the only country that is in balance with us. They buy more from us than we buy from them. They send more tourists to us than we send to them. If Captain O'Neill wanted to advertise tourism to attract the people of Southern Ireland, it would cost him a lot more to do it on UTV and it would be available only as far down as Dublin. Instead of that, Northern Ireland has been given hours and hours of time on Telefís Éireann, with a great deal of talk about the cooperation between North and South, and so on. It shows how well they know their business.

I would not like to see any curb being put on people trying to produce worthwhile programmes. Programmes have to be tried out in order to discover whether they will be a success or not. However, when other visitors, distinguished or undistinguished, come here from other countries they should not be insulted on Telefís Éireann. We should get away from that. It would be more entertaining and more fitting if these people were interviewed in a kindly and courteous way. We have a few good interviewers and we have a few dreadful interviewers. There have been interviewers talking to distinguished visitors and it is obvious the interviewers have not done any homework; they knew nothing about the distinguished visitors or the country they came from and were concerned only with asking them the awkward question. If that is the done thing for television authorities abroad, let it be. If they want to embarrass or hurt people, that is their business, but our interviewers should not try to do it.

From now on various committees will be endeavouring to promote festivals in different parts of the country. Last year a Festival of Light Opera was held in Waterford. The people who were responsible got in touch with Telefís Éireann months beforehand. Many visitors from South Wales, the midlands of England and the Six Counties came over for the 17 days of the festival, and seventeen magnificent musical shows were put on. Not one second of that was covered by Telefís Eireann; they ran down to Waterford one day and had to go back to their tea. That is no way to cover what I consider is the best festival run in the country from the point of view of bringing in tourists, from the point of view of putting on magnificent shows and from the point of view of not losing too much money.

We were told of all the difficulties that were involved in televising the shows. It appears that they could not take a film in Waterford notwithstanding the fact there is a stage there which has as good a lighting system as can be found in any theatre in this country. We could put on the lighting for him but we could not get him into the theatre. The Minister, his officials and the people in Telefís Eireann may say these shows were not up to some particular standard. The fact is that this Festival was put on for one hour on the BBC on 14th February last. Any of these shows would be as good as anything anybody in this House or outside it has ever seen. All the participants can sing; the costumes are magnificent; the orchestra is excellent. It begins to look as if we are a confederacy in Waterford, cut away from the rest of the State. Occasionally we hear telecasts itemising festivals. Waterford is never mentioned. That sort of thing should stop.

The Waterford Festival of Light Opera will start in September next. Telefís Eireann should cover three or four of the top shows. The shows can be put on in the daytime, if necessary. We will not go on accepting the excuse that there are a whole lot of technical reasons against putting on these shows because technicians have been sent around the country to cover presentations made in streets at night time. These were good local promotions, but they could never have the same attraction as the Waterford Festival of Light Opera.

Radharc have made some lovely films. I have been told that there was no demand for these on Telefís Éireann. I suggest to the Minister that he put it to the Director that these enlightened people, who make short films about historical places, should be given an opportunity of putting a series of these on trial. If the Minister does that, he will be doing something worthwhile.

This Estimate is a big one. The Minister's speech was a long one but I do not think he said much of great importance. Possibly he is retaining his best material for his reply.

I should like now to refer to a number of matters. I shall be as brief as possible. First, I should like to protest in the strongest possible manner against the continued interference by the Minister in the appointment of local postmen. I have evidence that again and again when a postman is being appointed at local level, no matter how deserving the temporary postman who has been doing the job for five or six years is, he is very often exchanged for a member of the local Fianna Fáil cumann with no claim whatever to the job. The Minister is as well aware of this as I am. When he took office, I said that, as a fellow Meath man, I thought he would make an excellent Minister but I advised him to keep out of local politics where appointments were concerned. If the Minister wants particulars now, I shall be only too happy to oblige. I refer particularly to the situation in Longwood. A man with a wife and six children has been replaced by a local youth, who was serving his time as a fitter, for no other reason than his political affiliations. I ask that that practice cease forthwith. If anyone says this is an isolated case, I say it is not. Deputy Spring had occasion to bring to the notice of the Minister——

There was no appointment at all in Castlemaine.

A fellow was brought back from England who was not on the labour exchange until the day before; he was put into a job which had been filled by a married man with a family. The excuse given was that this married man was not on the labour exchange. He could not be on the labour exchange because he was doing temporary work.

There has been no appointment there at all.

I do not want to argue with the Minister across the floor of the House. The Minister is as well aware as I am that these things have happened. In Castlemaine someone was brought home for the job. In Longwood a man was put into the job and the man who had been doing the work for 20 years was taken out to make room for the local political appointee. The final appointment has not been made yet.

I am not talking about Longwood.

I ask the Minister to use his good sense and ensure that this appointment in Longwood and the appointment in Moyvalley are filled by those who have been doing the temporary work over the years and not by someone high up in the political echelon.

The same situation arose in County Cavan. A former Minister sent a letter to a man telling him he was to be retained until an appointment was made. Someone started pulling strings and the man was pushed out and someone who was not interested when the work was temporary was put in when the work became permanent. The Minister is a decent man and he should not associate himself with that type of thing.

It is too bad that auxiliary postmen should be so badly paid. In a village near where I live, a postman died. He was replaced by a lady who found the wages she was getting did not compensate her for the work she had to do.

A postmaster?

A postman.

He was replaced by a lady?

There are quite a number of lady postal carriers in the country. Subsequently another man was appointed. Having been provided with a uniform and everything else, he found the wages he was getting were lower than those of the man who had died. He resigned and was replaced by a young man. He resigned. The position now is that local schoolboys waiting for a job are acting as postmen. The wage is something like £4.10.0 or £4.15.0 per week. It is a scandalous situation. Why can the Department not ensure that a job like this will be made attractive enough to keep the people in it?

Again, the auxiliary postman gets no pension even after 30 or 40 years' work. If he is old enough, when he retires, he may get the old age pension. If he does not qualify, that is just too bad. In an age when practically everybody is pensionable, this is a matter that should be seriously considered by the Minister and, if he achieves some satisfactory solution to the present position, he will be remembered for it.

With regard to uniforms, there have been modifications but the uniform is still bad. There is no reason why clumsy old uniforms should be issued to public servants, the same as to the Army. Whether the same person designed them or not, I do not know. They are rough, ill-fitting and everything is wrong with them. Somebody said they were to serve the purpose of an overcoat and undercoat because they would keep out the rain better than anything else. But there should be some better way of keeping out the rain than designing dual-purpose uniforms.

The Minister said almost 16,000 telephones had been installed during the year, but there is still a waiting list of over 13,000. What I object to is that people who badly need them are being passed over. In my constituency there is a businessman who applied for a telephone four years ago. The reply he got was that, when it was possible to give him service, he would get it. But somebody came to live beside him, who had no need of a telephone except for social purposes, and he, according to himself, applied for it and got it within three weeks. Again, it is a question of different political views. The first man is a Labour county councillor and the second is a well-known supporter of the Minister's Party. Can we be blamed for saying there must be some reason for this and that some preference must be given?

I also asked the Minister previously about a farmer living outside Kells who had been looking for a phone. The Minister told me it would cost too much to give it to him. But his neighbours on both sides could get it. Again, the only difference was a difference in political views. That gives rise to criticism. Possibly, it is pure coincidence in every case, the same as the postmen, but it does not look well. The Minister promised me two or three months ago that a trade union official down the country who was waiting for a phone for months would get it. I had a very courteous letter from the Minister's private secretary to the effect that this man would get the phone in six weeks. That is three months ago. Of course, he did not get it and has not got it yet. I do not know when he will get it. Therefore, the letter I got from the Minister and passed on to this individual seemed to be only passing the buck.

I was surprised that the Estimate was so large because last year there was a change in the system under which arrangements were made to collect from the other Departments the cost of Post Office services. I expected, since the amount involved was fairly substantial, that it would be reflected in the Estimate. Apparently, that is not so. Perhaps the Minister will comment on that?

In regard to the new scheme for training boys in the Engineering Branch, I am glad to hear the Minister say it has been a success. I was one of those who felt there was a danger they would be only half-trained and then dropped. The Minister said the numbers have increased from 50 to over 200. Perhaps he might tell us whether all those who started the course are with the Post Office still, or has there been any substantial loss on the way?

I was a bit puzzled about the Minister's reference to the engineering staff. My information is that they have threatened they are going to leave the Scheme of Conciliation and Arbitration by 1st of April, if my memory serves me right. If that is so, it does not tally with the Minister's statement that negotiations are going on and everything in the garden is lovely. I think the people responsible for constructing and maintaining the telephone service are not being paid sufficiently and have a genuine complaint. They have not been properly met by the Department and the Minister might interest himself in it. Again, this is something in which a little bit of commonsense might prevent a big row, which could do untold harm to our telecommunications if it goes much further than at present.

The Minister might tell us how it is that much of the present cable laying is being carried out by a British company. Was there no company in this country who could do it? Was there any reason why we could not train people or get contractors? While there must be a certain amount of technical knowledge needed, with all our talk of buying Irish, it is strange to find the vans of the British Telephone Cable Company and their workmen all along the roads. Is there any reason why we could not have employed Irishmen to do this work?

I know that kiosks have to be arranged 12 months in advance, but does the Minister not agree there are areas very badly served by public telephones? Can we not have the system overhauled? Even in Meath there are huge areas with no public telephone at all, where people have to go seven or eight miles to a public telephone. Even if a lot of use is not made of these kiosks, surely, if we can buy helicopters for an emergency, kiosks should be provided to give an emergency telephone service for people who have no other means of communicating with the outside world?

Last year the Minister and some members of his Party commented that the Post Office was paying its way. I do not know whether Deputy T. Lynch will go the whole way with me in this. He said we should not forget the Post Office is a public service. My Party believe the onus should not be on the Post Office to pay its way. They should go as near as possible perhaps to breaking even without undue hardship, but it should not be necessary to say that a service cannot be provided unless it pays its way. Water, sewerage and so on are also public services and, if we go on that principle, it might also be suggested that they should pay their way.

The increased postal charges last year, particularly the increase in the letter post, was a very heavy impost on certain organisations, particularly some of the smaller charitable organisations. I know of one that found it almost impossible to carry on, because they posted a substantial amount of material and had no way of recouping the extra charge. There is nothing the Minister can do about that now, but it is something that might prevent him from putting the other penny on the stamp—I know it is very tempting!

Last year, I and other Deputies referred to a man who was refused appointment as a permanent postman by the Appointments Commission. The Minister agreed that the man should be appointed. To give the Minister credit, this man is still in the employment of the Post Office and giving excellent service. Is there any way in which this problem can be got over? It seems ridiculous that a man in perfect health, with good character and giving excellent service, should be barred from appointment because somebody, for some reason he is unable or unwilling to disclose, felt he should not be appointed. Is there anything further the Minister can do about it? If there is, I would ask him to do it. This cloak and dagger business has gone far enough.

The automatic telephone services have been referred to. There has been a very big improvement but that does not mean they are perfect. I have had the experience of dialling one number and getting another. I suppose these are teething troubles but the annoying thing is to dial half a dozen times without getting your number at all. Again I suppose this may be due to some fault in the mechanism. It is also annoying if in Dublin you dial 04621581, the number of Meath County Council, and find an unfortunate woman in Dublin city, who has the number 46218, complaining that she had received 20 calls within a couple of hours. This was due to a fault in the mechanism and all I could do was apologise. She accepted the first few times but she did not like it after that.

The television service, taking everything into consideration, has been doing reasonably well. Perhaps we expect too much of it. We would like to see more Irish material used. In my area we can see any imported stuff or canned material that we want to see on UTV and BBC, and it is rather a pity that subjects which are distinctly Irish cannot be used to a greater degree on Telefís Éireann even if only travel talks or, as Deputy T. Lynch suggested, pictures of the countryside. There are a lot of things which could be shown and which would improve the service and do good to the areas concerned.

There is one thing with which the Minister promised to deal last year and has not done so, that is, interference. Surely at this stage it should be possible, if a report is received that somebody is using a faulty machine and as a result the television is being interfered with, for the Department to find that person, or if they know who it is, to call on him and try to get him to have a suppressor fitted or to make it compulsory that suppressors should be fitted to prevent interference. Interference is particularly annoying if you are looking at a good programme.

I think the sports coverage is excellent and the service really comes into its own when covering any type of sport. Possibly the service would cover more sports and could also, as I said earlier, cover more Irish music and dancing. We do hear it said that there should be more Irish but if there were more Irish there are many people who would not be able to understand what was going on, but music, dancing and drama are portion of our culture and there should be a lot more of them.

I should also like to ask the Minister if it is not possible to have a late news programme in English. It is rather annoying for somebody who arrives home late to find that there is only an Irish version of the news. If the person knows Irish, it is all right, but quite a big number of people do not know Irish and are at a disadvantage.

Quite often it is unintelligible Irish.

Yes. With regard to political broadcasts, I think they are doing reasonably well. I do not know if the ratings are very high but possibly a representative from each of the three Parties might be put on for a discussion as they do in England. I am sure the Minister would then find that viewing audiences would increase very much. I do not mean the "Open House" type of discussion where it is loaded in a certain way and the questions are censored.

You could have Deputies from each constituency in turn.

Reference was also made to the Sunday night programme "The Hurler on the Ditch". I think they are doing well. I have not agreed with expressions they have used, particularly on last Sunday night but it reminded me of the old chap who was in charge of a number of people who were working and one of them was foolish enough to say that it was quitting time and he said it was not, but when everybody was working again, he said: "Now it is quitting time". The Taoiseach has been playing that game and I congratulate the gentlemen of the Press for putting it across. He said they were wrong one day and the next day they were right.

I should like to ask the Minister if there is any hope of an increase in the rate paid by the Post Office Savings Bank? It has remained static for many years. It is the small man's way of saving and it could do with an increase because the rate does not compare well with rates paid elsewhere. I have been asked to congratulate the Department on their belated justice to the temporary telephonists who, some of them after 20 years service, are now getting as much as those starting after an examination. They are very happy about it.

Another matter which was referred to was the strike in Telefís Eireann. I think it should not have taken place. It is one place there should not have been a strike and every effort should have been made by the management to avert it, but when it did take place it was the very essence of bad taste for Telefís Éireann to use their staff to put across propaganda about what had caused the strike. I do not want to take any side, one way or another. I know very little about what caused the strike, but firstly, it should not have taken place and secondly, there should have been a decent silence on it because it was unfair that the people in a position to do so should have used the television service for the purpose of putting across what they wanted to put across.

Finally, reference was made to pensions. I do not know whether the Minister is aware of this regulation contained in the Post Office Reference Book, written by the late Deputy William Norton, which is on page 17 and says:

Act of 1834, Section 12:— provided always, that the superannuation allowance to be granted to any officer or person after the passing of this Act shall not be computed upon the amount of his salary enjoyed by him at the time of his retirement, unless he shall have been in the receipt of the same, or in the class from which he retires, for a period of at least three years immediately before the granting of such superannuation allowance; and in case he shall not have enjoyed his then existing salary, or have been in such class for that period, such super-annuation allowance shall be calculated upon the average amount of salary received by such person for three years next preceding the commencement of such allowance.

That means that a man—whom I know—who was receiving a salary of roughly £900 and was promoted to a salary of £1,150 and with a status increase went up to nearly £1,400, will, if he retires within the three years following his promotion, have his pension calculated on the £900. If he had not got his promotion but had got his ninth round and his status increase it would be calculated on £1,150 to £1,200. As I understand it, the regulation is still in existence; if it is not, perhaps the Minister will tell me and set at rest my mind and the mind of the person who asked me to raise the matter.

I will not delay the House very long but I wish to make a few comments on this important Estimate. One could hardly expect the Opposition speakers to praise any Department or its working but we must all be reasonable and fair in our criticism. Deputy T. Lynch tried to denigrate the efforts of the Department, a Department that is striving very hard, against great difficulties, to cope with an increasing upsurge in expansion that possibly was not anticipated a few years ago.

The increase in all the service of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs can only be described as indicative of the expanding economy generally. The Post Office can be taken as the barometer of the expansion of our whole economy. When Deputy T. Lynch pointed out that the Estimate did not indicate any particular increases, one wondered if he had studied the figures for expenditure on telephone capital work which increased from £2 million in 1960/61 to over £7 million in the present year. In addition, almost 16,000 telephones were installed and we still find a waiting list of over 13,000 and that at a time when this service is costing everybody more. That can only be described as a huge expansion in our national economy and in the improved standards of living of our people which is reflected in their ability to enjoy an amenity which heretofore was regarded as an essential.

It is indicative of the awareness of the general public and their acknowledgment of this huge expansion in the service that at the present time they are acquiescent in the face of great difficulties. People have to experience the most annoying delays but they are willing to do so because they are aware that the system is not capledgmen able of coping with the huge expansion which has suddenly taken place. Many of the exchanges and much of the equipment are becoming obsolete and could not stand up to the increased burden they are called on to bear.

One is tempted to ask the question whether, at this time, when we have a great availability of labour, we should not adopt a crash programme to provide for the necessary increase. However, I am reliably informed that this is a skilled job and one which cannot be undertaken overnight. Personnel have to be trained and skilled workmen have to be obtained, because modern systems call for better techniques in the men who operate them. We could easily adopt something on the lines of a crash programme to provide the increased services now being demanded but we could easily find ourselves with inefficient or inferior installations. That would not solve our problem. The acceleration in the construction programme which has so far taken place is possibly the most satisfactory manner of tackling the problem and we can look forward, in the not far distant future, to an expansion in our economy and an upsurge in our standard of living which will mean that very few homes in this country will be without a telephone service.

There has been a decline in the telegraph service. That is the inevitable sequel to the increase in the telephone service. Nobody will use the telegraph service when he has his telephone and that is the explanation of the decline in a service which was at one time practically the only means of communication from remote areas. Speaking from memory, I think the telegraph service was never very remunerative and, as far as the Department were concerned, they were never inclined to encourage its use when better means of communication were available to the community. The increase in the telephone service has almost entirely obviated the need for the telegraph service, except on special occasions such as funerals and weddings.

The Minister is entitled to the credit which is due to his Department and himself. The postal service has been improved consistently. I heard some speakers refer to delays in deliveries to remote areas but I do not think there is any area in the country today which cannot be contacted by means of the postal service on the second day. If a letter is posted here up to 8 o'clock in the evening, it is delivered in the remote areas of Donegal at 9 o'clock in the morning. A letter I post to my home in Donegal is delivered at 8 o'clock in the morning. This is an excellent service.

Will you go out and post it in the GPO? Do not put it in the box which is specially provided for the Minister.

The last collection from Pearse Street is very late at night. If a letter catches that, it goes on the train to Lifford where sorting takes place, and then it goes out by van to the remote areas and is delivered at 8 or 9 o'clock in the morning. We should take cognisance of the good things that have been done before we complain about things that annoy us. If I dial Bundoran or Ballyshannon ten times and get it immediately, I do not think of it, but if I dial once and get a wrong number, I am inclined to remember that for the rest of the week. One is sometimes exasperated when these things happen but we must take into account the huge number of new lines that now exist, sometimes carried by a service that was not originally designed to cater for such expansion.

The development being carried out by the Department has begun in the right place by installing new operating services and larger exchanges, thus giving facilities for the extra lines which must be used. The huge increase in the cross-Channel service and the pending increase by which the new route will leave us with 800 circuits is a vast improvement that was very much needed. The same applies to the transatlantic service. In many cases one finds the trunk call service is better than a local service and that is something to be thankful for because usually such calls are much more important and more costly and we like to get them in the most expeditious manner.

By and large, the Department has grown to be a man-sized job in recent years—one might say a job and a half —and it requires all the co-operation the public can give until we grow out of this period of waiting which is necessary in regard to many of the services. But when we know that they are being tackled in a businesslike way and that we shall soon reach the stage when normal installation of telephones will be dealt with as promptly as they are applied for, we should not complain. In the old days when you had only one telephone in a village or town, if you made application, they would instal your telephone in a week but these were the days when people did not enjoy the same high standard of living as now and a telephone was regarded as an unnecessary luxury, only suited to a few wealthy people.

Most Deputies have had something to say about the television and sound broadcasting services, which are now availed of to a greater extent than ever. As I said last year, there is a feeling that with the coming of television, sound broadcasting was being given more or less step-child attention but in those areas where sound reception is poor, people will welcome steps which are being taken to provide better reception and end all the interference one encounters on the ordinary radio nowadays. A good deal of patience has been shown in this matter and I can assure the Minister that the steps he has taken to remedy the position could not come soon enough. I thought last year, when speaking on this Estimate, that by now we should have much of this difficulty solved but perhaps we can look forward, in the northern end of the country, to having something done about it in the very near future.

Television, as Deputy Tully said, has only been launched a short time and up to this has had what one would regard as a very successful infancy. It is now reaching adolescence and people are becoming more selective, more critical, more accustomed to the medium and consequently more difficult to please. Taking all this into account, the overall picture one must honestly paint of the medium is one of success. The many people who criticise programmes is itself an indication that many take a keen interest in the programmes. I do not mind Deputy T. Lynch's criticism: his idea is that if somebody scandalises Fianna Fáil, it is a good programme, but if they scandalise Fine Gael, it is a bad programme.

I said I would prefer these media to be recorders of truth. The Deputy is doing what Fianna Fail do, distorting what I said. I want them to record the truth, something the Deputy would know nothing about.

I think we should be grown up by now and prepared to take a little criticism. Perhaps in Ireland we are rather sensitive to criticism and, considering some of the programmes we see on other channels, we should be prepared to take a knock if it is given without any ulterior motive and accept what is the ordinary mirror held up to public life. I know there are occasions when smart alecs try to abuse the privilege they have, to put across some personal spleen, and that becomes quite apparent to the viewer and has less value than might be expected. It does not improve the programme at all. Even on the "Late Late Show" where people are regarded as being unconfined in what they may deal with, we frequently get a smart alec trying to put across some personal spleen and abusing the medium for that purpose. But generally, it works out reasonably well and in spite of the fact that sometimes the audience present is of a particular age group or type and may not be imbued with the highest ideals of patriotism, the response is quite good and I should say the high TAM rating of that show is justified as one of the programmes most of us like to see. Any spontaneous type of programme is always highly regarded and that leads me to say that perhaps we have not enough of that spontaneous type of programme in which people are not prepared to say just the right thing or what is supposed to be the right thing, giving the programme an artificial appearance.

The importance of television and sound radio as a medium of communication is possibly not fully appreciated by the people generally as yet but it can have a tremendous effect on public thinking. Already in this country a good television programme is likely to be seen by about 800,000 people and from that one can get some appreciation of its importance as a medium by which to get through to the public whatever message is desired.

When the BBC was first organised, at the opening ceremony, the Minister pointed out that a good broadcasting service had a duty to inform, to entertain and to educate and all programmes should be directed towards these targets. In a station where the Authority have to depend on revenue from commercials, it is not always possible strictly to follow these three principles and sometimes the station feels obliged to telecast what the masses will want to see, irrespective of whether it is good material or not.

Insofar as a duty lies with a broadcasting or telecasting authority to educate, it is not obliged always to give what may be in popular demand. If the literature available to the people were uncensored, it is remarkable what they would read. If people were allowed to get uncensored literature, there would be for something that was not accepted by anybody as being good. The same can apply to radio and television programmes. We could easily find ourselves getting programmes that would be extensively viewed which would not be accepted by many people as being very good intellectually, morally, or otherwise. An authority that is compelled to find its revenue from commercial sources cannot set the high standards that an entirely State-sponsored station can set and thereby give the people what they know to be nationally, morally and intellectually sound and good for them.

There are some films telecast by Telefís Éireann which are not of a very high quality but which nevertheless are enjoyed by a section of the people. For that matter, there is no programme on sound broadcasting or television which will not find its complement of enthusiasts, whether large or small, but the purpose of the Authority is to give programmes which are viewed and enjoyed by the greater number and aimed at entertaining and getting through to the various age groups. In these difficult circumstances, the Telefís Éireann Authority have succeeded to the greatest possible extent in giving satisfactory programmes since the inauguration of the service taking into consideration all the difficulties experienced and the special difficulties which I have been trying to point out apply where commercials are the main source of revenue.

I agree with Deputy Tully that the programmes which would be most interesting have never been put on the air. When the Director of Programmes has been interviewing the Whips of this House in an effort to get agreement and arrangement for regular political broadcasts, it has not always been easy and sometimes it has been a matter of a battle of wits. He frequently remarked that it would make an excellent programme if he were allowed to bring the cameras along. Something on those lines would always be interesting.

While each individual has his views about what constitutes a good or a bad programme, it is generally agreed that news programmes or programmes showing topical events, with suitable pictures, would take first place. They are generally accepted as being the most interesting from the point of view of dissemination of information. In giving a good presentation of the news, the Authority is fulfilling its responsibility in regard to the dissemination of information. While we would like to have much more pictures shown in conjunction with news items I understand that that presents a difficulty in the matter of cost. It is quite an expensive matter. It is much less expensive, naturally, to give the news without showing pictures in conjunction with it. News programmes or programmes featuring topical events, of which we are getting much more since the last Estimate than formerly, are accepted by everybody as being good material and the type of programme that to the greatest extent encourages people to purchase television sets and to become regular viewers.

I would say that the programme that would take second place is a programme such as the "Late, Late Show". It would certainly be regarded in rural Ireland as the second most important and has a tremendous viewing public in rural areas and possibly in the towns also. After that, I would put political broadcasts. Anybody who says that the Irish people are not politically conscious does not know the Irish people. There is hardly a word spoken in a political broadcast of any type but I would hear discussed by anybody I meet and I meet as many people as Deputy T. Lynch does over the week-end. I could imagine somebody in a pub in Waterford switching off a Fianna Fáil broadcast, as Deputy Lynch told us.

Deputy Lynch did not.

He said he was listening to a broadcast at 10.50 on Sunday——

It is news to me that there was a Fianna Fáil broadcast. The Parliamentary Secretary has admitted it.

He told us that somebody said: "Switch that off".

No, I did not. I said that instead of saying "Switch that off", they listened to it.

That is what I would expect because we all listen to them. One could imagine my viewing a Fine Gael broadcast although I would not be terribly interested in it or in agreement with it. Yet I would look at it and listen to it. The point I am trying to make is that there is very keen interest in political broadcasts.

I am saying "Hear, hear". I agreed. I wanted more time for them.

The Irish lesson programme "Labhair Gaeilge Linn" is the best effort at interesting people in learning Irish yet produced on any medium in this country. It is done in a nice way and by people who have a good manner. It is a departure from the old style: "Bhí fáthach ann uair amháin", which is very good in its own way but this is a modern effort which has caught on with people, and has become popular even with some of those who are antagonistic to the revival, like Deputy T. Lynch.

In looking at this increase in the Estimate and taking into consideration the service the Department are giving —no one denies that occasionally people are annoyed with them when things do not turn out well—we must agree that the greatly increased volume of business of this Department has been capably handled. I want to congratulate the Minister who is rather slow to blow his own trumpet. He is doing a man-sized job in his office.

I want to conclude on the note on which I began, by saying that despite the fact that there are delays in telephone installations about which people insist on writing to us to try to expedite installations when they have finally decided to apply for a telephone, the number installed each year and the huge expansion which is evident in every section of that Department's activities is indicative of the higher standard of living and the expanded economy of the country. There is no other explanation. In so far as it can be taken as a barometer of the economic expansion and the improved standard of living in the country, I welcome the increased amount provided for capital development, for better services and for better wages and salaries for the expanding staff employed by this growing Department.

I should like to make a few comments on this Estimate without going into detail as Deputy T. Lynch did. In regard to the purchase of stamps, I must ask the Minister again why there is not a stamp machine outside every post office. The average person, when he comes home from work, may want to write a letter and have it delivered the next morning; the post office is closed and as he cannot purchase a stamp locally, it is the following afternoon before the letter arrives. I have been in that situation several times. If the Minister provided a stamp machine outside every post office, I am sure he would sell many more stamps.

I have asked the Minister on previous occasions to have some means devised of doing away with the forest of skyscraper aerials around the city and the country. They are dangerous in bad weather; they damage property; and they are ugly. While I am not suggesting that the people should be made do without them—they cannot get outside programmes otherwise— the Department should do something about it themselves or induce someone else to produce an aerial of reasonable size that will enable them to receive the programmes they want. In a great many flat schemes, the Corporation will not allow individual aerials and as a result people are paying £5 for Telefís Éireann reception only.

The Minister mentioned that a series of stamps is to be issued in connection with the 50th anniversary of the Rising. A motion was sent to the Minister by Fianna Éireann at the last Árd Fheis asking that stamps should be issued to commemorate not only the IRA but Cumann na mBan, the Fianna and the Citizen Army. I am speaking particularly on behalf of the Fianna. I should like the Minister to remember that two of the 1916 leaders were Fianna men, Colbert and Heuston, and Countess Markievicz played a prominent part and was one of the founders of the Fianna. About 50 members of the Fianna took part in the Rising, among them Garry and Paddy O'Houlihan. If there is a series of stamps issued, the Fianna should not be left out.

In regard to the cost of television licences, people do not like paying more but when things cost more, people must pay more. As long as people are getting more money, they can manage it, but I would ask the Minister to consider the possibility of allowing old age pensioners to have a licence for half the normal price, payable in two instalments. I mention this because there are pensioners who have no television sets and who could never afford one. If it were not for the licence, they might be able to get a television set at 5/- or 7/6 a week. They might be able to manage that themselves, or someone might help them. The £5 fee constitutes a difficulty for them. I do not think the Minister would lose money because he would get thousands of applications. I am sure there are not many old age pensioners who have any income other than their pension. I do not think many of them have a television set. The Minister would not lose anything. There is nothing so miserable as old persons sitting at home with no visitors. With television, they would at least see some sort of life. I ask the Minister to consider the matter. I do not think he has anything to lose.

Even though the Minister says he is not responsible for day-to-day matters in relation to Telefís and Radio Éireann, these services are paid for by the State. In a few weeks we will have a Bill here renewing their permit to carry on. I am sure whatever we say here gets to the ears of those responsible. Much has been said about the programmes. I know the situation is a difficult one. I know there are various groups, such as religious groups, big and small, and one has to cater for all. The fact is that 80 to 90 per cent of the people want entertainment. Telefís Éireann are dependent on the moneys they get from commercial advertising and naturally these people will not pay these moneys if there are nothing but junk and ham shows. The shows must be good to attract commercial advertising. If they do not get advertising, we will have a more costly licence. We cannot have it every way.

Telefís Éireann have to cater for more than entertainment. There is education and so forth. I never leave my home on Sunday night. On most occasions I turn Telefís Éireann off. The shows are junk. They do not hold me and I am not aware that they hold anyone else. No one in my home pays any attention. The pattern is repeated in other homes. There is too much junk on Sunday night.

With regard to political broadcasts, I think it was Deputy T. Lynch who said that the three Parties should get together. It would be much better if they did. All that happens now is that each Party puts over its own propaganda—a lot of codology because there is no one to contradict and no one to ask awkward questions. These programmes would be more beneficial and certainly more informative if they took the form of a symposium. I make it by business to be at home for these broadcasts. To me they are junk in their present form. It may be politics, if you like, but people talk on subjects about which I know a good deal and I have had to suffer listening to them talking about things about which they know nothing and putting a whole lot of lies over on the public. The broadcasts would be more constructive and more informative if the three Parties got together and there was someone present to ask awkward questions.

I said "the three Parties". There are also Independents. They represent a considerable number of the electorate. In the last general election, the Independents in Dublin city and county got about 21,000 first preference votes. Labour polled about 17,000. Independents do not go up everywhere because they cannot afford it. I go up, but I am different. I went up once and I did not spend a "deuce". I am different from other people. If Independents went up in every constituency, there would be a considerable volume of Independent opinion. It would be shown. It is not shown now because we do not go forward everywhere. I believe a good part of the 30 or 40 per cent who never vote are of our way of thinking. Telefís Éireann is for the public and it should be remembered that Independents constitute a good proportion of the public. The views we represent are considerable and we should, therefore, have a say on Telefís Éireann. It has been asked who among us ought to have that to say. We will settle that ourselves.

I have no objection to political broadcasts on the eve of a general election or a by-election. Sometime before Christmas we had regular political broadcasts when there was no by-election. The Independents were kept out of the picture. The municipal elections will take place in June. I believe those elections should be free of Party, but people used Telefís Éireann to play up their chances at the forthcoming municipal elections. That puts others at a disadvantage. I hold non-Party people should be allowed to have their say. Indeed, I hold Party people should not contest municipal elections at all.

Local authorities have different responsibilities from those of the State. They are responsible largely for housing, roads and amenities generally. Some people hold that housing is not exclusively a local authority matter. I hold it is because the local authority decide what they will do or what they will not do. So long as there is no interference by the Minister for Local Government from the point of view of finance, the functions of the local authority have nothing to do with the Minister for Local Government. Over the past ten years, I have come across only one instance in which the Minister for Local Government was implicated; that was when there was a shortage of money in 1956. Otherwise the whole question of housing is a matter solely for the housing authority in each area. They can do what they like. Since it is exclusively a local authority matter, others should appear on these television programmes to make the position clear.

I expected a good show following the funeral of Roger Casement. It was a miserable performance. The weather was good when the remains were being brought to the Pro-Cathedral. I am not aware that that cortège was shown at all. We had a little bit the next morning when we had Siberian weather. The cameras were out but we saw nothing of the cortège.

Deputy Lynch talked about seeing on a Sunday night a programme called "The Hurler on the Ditch" in a public place in Waterford. I wish we had the same civilised custom here, where we could have the opportunity of looking at this excellent programme from 10 o'clock to 11 o'clock on a Sunday night in public places. Unfortunately, that is a part of old Ireland that no longer obtains in these environs. This programme is an innovation to be welcomed, because it brings into the whole conspectus of political discussion the importance of those who report the proceedings in this Dáil and make them intelligible to the people of this country. I would suggest there are members of this House who need somebody to make them intelligible, and that is done very effectively by the Fourth Estate. As I say, that particular programme is developing very satisfactorily.

On the question of political broadcasts, I imagine that the people, no matter what may be said here, are going to get very tired looking at the faces of politicians on their screens talking nothing but pure doctrinaire politics to them for 15 minutes. Holding a television audience is a most difficult and highly-skilled operation. Even people who are professional entertainers have the greatest difficulty and find it most trying, here, across the water and elsewhere, to keep the attention of a television audience. A television audience is not a mass audience, such as is to be found in a theatre, where the mass feeling is contagious. It is the family, or part of the family, in a home, talking amongst themselves and perhaps pursuing other interests as well as looking at television. Therefore, the task of holding this audience is a very difficult one.

The present system of members of Parties coming along and saying their piece, blankly or with whatever fervour they can bring to their task, is going to pall and is, in fact, palling. It is not doing all that much good to politicians as is made out here. The reason is that interest is not being introduced. There must be some element of conflict in a discussion to make it interesting. I urge on the Minister to consider the idea that has been pursued effectively in England, that there should be television discussions between the members of different Parties. I do not mean bawling matches such as are envisaged by some Deputies; I mean intelligent discussions on issues of importance, with the policies of the different Parties presented in a manner which will be understood and appreciated by the people. I do not think that is too much to ask.

There is one other request I would make. We should get away from the political partisanship which has been displayed in the matter of the allocation of television time. Why should television time be allocated on the basis of Party membership in this House? In England you have the Liberal Party, with only a handful of people, getting as much television time at all times during the year, apart from election time, as the major Parties which multiply them in number. Here, in our own little way, we try to get a little advantage by saying we are the bigger Party and, therefore, we must have more than the Party smaller than us and three times as much as the Party smaller still— the Labour Party. Many people have been surprised at seeing Parties get what they consider to be twice or three times as much time as the Labour Party. They consider that an unfair and selfish way of going about the business. It also displays a lack of confidence in one's own convictions. A Party sure of itself does not need three platforms against one, if it is convinced of its own rectitude and righteousness.

Then there is this tendency all the time to make a political instrument out of Telefís Éireann. I know it is very difficult for people employed under the authority of the Government to avoid the temptation of, shall we say, currying favour by displaying partisanship when it comes to the reporting of news on television or to the production of pictures. Invariably, when it comes to pictures, where politicians are involved it is a moneyon shot that, if there is a Fianna Fáil Deputy around, he will get most of the publicity.

You are very photogenic yourself.

Thank you very much, but it does not do me any good. Some of us feel this is not as it should be. I want to say this at this remove, because it would have been possibly unpopular or deemed in bad taste to have said it earlier: on a very famous occasion when the television cameras were in this House, an historic occasion, a political stunt was made out of it. To the viewers it would have appeared that the only people who were members of Dáil Éireann were the members of the Fianna Fáil Party.

That is not so.

It is. No pictures were taken from that side of the House.

Pictures were taken from both sides.

If you can supply me with one, I will give you a fiver for it.

This small-mindedness gains no advantage for anyone. It is very small and mean. It was unworthy of the Irish people, particularly in that context. I have hesitated to mention it before now, but it was a matter of comment among Deputies and the Irish people generally at the time and since. That kind of thing should be avoided. There should be fair play for all Parties on television, because the people who support Fine Gael, Labour or any other groups have just as much right to have their point of view expressed as the Party which happens to be at the moment, just at the moment, in Government. When I say "at the moment", I would suggest that the Government should beware the Ides of March.

The installation of telephones is a matter I have discussed with the Minister. I would like to direct his attention to a possible abuse in this connection. I have had experience of people writing to me asking me to use my energies to help get them a telephone. We all get these letters. It is largely a pointless exercise, because I am certain that the letters we write to the Department have no effect whatever on the expedition, or lack of it, with which the person gets the telephone. Then we have had the experience of people who were assured they would get a telephone. I received an assurance in at least one case that a person was about to receive a telephone installation. Suddenly, his nextdoor neighbour who made application at a much later date, got his installation and the person who was first assured he would get it is still left without it.

That is not the work of the Minister. In my view, it is the work of certain people at lower levels in the service of the Post Office and it is something which steps should be taken to correct. No official should have the right to discriminate as far as the installation of telephones is concerned. There should be strict priority in accordance with the date of application and so on, and no question of favouritism. This is exercised in some cases and is highly undesirable. Its basis may be political or otherwise but it should not be there.

I mentioned earlier, by way of interjection, about the unintelligibility of some of the Irish to which we have to listen on Telefís Éireann. I appreciate that there are several dialects of the language and most people who have any familiarity with the language will have little difficulty in understanding one dialect or another, but I have heard dialects and I do not know where they were unearthed.

Dublin Irish.

Far from it. I am not going to pinpoint people but they are far nearer to the Deputy's abode than to mine.

There is a new dialect, Fianna Fáil cumann Irish.

Of course, that is the angelic Irish.

The chorus before the dawn.

The first word you have to learn in that is "tá".

Ní h-ea.

Oh, tá. The point is, let us have all the Irish we can take, and I speak as one who likes to listen to Irish, but let it be Irish we can understand. Let us not have this drift towards the obscure expression which baffles everybody. I would suggest that it could possibly be understood only by the speaker, his grandfather and maybe by the Four Masters.

I think the Deputy is biassed.

Representations have been made to me in connection with interference on television. This is a terrible hardship on old people, people who are unable to leave their homes and who depend on television as their prime source of enjoyment. This matter has been raised since television started. We knew it existed before television started and we are being very lax and dilatory in our approach to the eradication of interference. The Minister said that a committee was considering what might be done. Because there are many aspects of the problem, no decision has yet been taken but surely it should not be difficult to provide suppressors of some kind for machinery? If necessary, steps should be taken by legislation to strengthen existing regulations, if they need strengthening, or at least the regulations should be implemented rigorously in the case of people who, by the operation of electrical apparatus, make things difficult in certain areas for television viewers, particularly of the kind and class I have indicated.

One of the things we should bear in mind is that postal charges do not constitute a part of the cost of living but in fact practically everybody has to pay these charges and they are steadily creeping up. I would direct the attention of the Minister to page 245 of the current Book of Estimates, which, incidentally, is adorned with the highest figure ever recorded in the history of this country —£220,854,480, of which £186,859,852 are current expenses. On page 245 in Appendix D, we see the surplus or deficit on the postal, telegraph and telephone services for five years. The Minister recalls that he and his predecessors have said that they are firmly resolved that these services should pay for themselves. In 1959/60 there was a surplus of £389,083; in 1960/61, there was a surplus of £368,589; in 1961/62, there was a surplus of £11,000; in 1962/63 there was a surplus of £46,000; and in 1963/64, there was a deficit of £164,000. I do not think we have any figure for the final deficit in the current year. It seems to be the fate of any service operated by the Government that to begin with, we are warned that it is going to be profit earning or surplus producing and no sooner are these words uttered than a deficit emerges. These deficits, the deficit last year and this year, have to be thought of in the context of increased postal charges, increased telephone charges, increased telegram charges and increases in every charge the public have to pay. All this is part of the general picture of the steady upward spiral of costs which I suggest to the Minister are accumulating into a very real menace to the economic viability of the country.

I should like to ask the Minister specifically this question. On page 232 of the current Estimates, there appear certain figures, receipts in connection with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs services, and the figure for Appropriations in Aid is £9 million and for Postal, Telegraph and Telephone Revenue paid to the Exchequer, £15 million. Does that figure include the payments by other Departments to the Post Office for services rendered?

I understand that either last year or in the year just passed a new system of accounting was introduced in which there was brought to the credit of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs a sum for every other Department in respect of the services rendered by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, either by deliveries of letters or telephone charges, and that this should have substantially increased the revenue of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. If that is so, the magnitude of the deficit this year, after taking credit for that, is significant but we cannot estimate its true significance unless we know precisely what extra revenue the Department of Posts and Telegraphs have taken credit for in their accounts in respect of the services rendered to the other Departments which heretofore they used not take.

There are certain specific matters to which I wish to direct the attention of the Minister. I suggest to him that it should not be the case that in post offices operated by the Department in Dublin, people should be required to queue up for small services such as the purchase of stamps and the sending of telegrams, particularly when they can see certain members of the staff engaged in routine duties such as checking accounts or making up tots while some of the windows that should be open remain closed. I have had to direct the attention of the director of postal services in Dublin to this matter and I need hardly say that, in the tradition of the Post Office, these complaints were courteously received. It is necessary to urge on the Post Office staffs in all post offices operated by the Department that the requirements of customers should take precedence over ordinary routine work. So long as people are waiting for attention at the counters, the staffs should devote themselves to that as their primary duty.

The Minister has asked for further forbearance in respect of the installation of telephones. On 11th February this year, Deputy T. Lynch, at column 323 of the Official Report, asked the Minister a question and the Minister had a very strange tale to tell about the installation of telephones. He said that the number of applications for telephones before his Department on 31st December last was 13,215. Of these, 4,536 were pending for up to a year, 1,237 for up to two years, 379 for up to three years and 29 for four years. The total number of applications outstanding at the same time a year ago was 11,617. On that record, instead of catching up on arrears, we seem to be slipping further back. We are often told that this is the only branch of the service which pays its way and it is a continual source of amazement to me that we cannot make better progress in supplying what the people want than we have been making up to the present.

I know the Minister's alibi will be that we cannot supply the services until the trunks are completed. He has been giving us that alibi for a long time and there is no doubt that the delay is causing a great measure of inconvenience to the country. Deputies of every Party have the same tale to tell, that one of the regular features of their correspondence is the number of people writing to ask to have telephones installed. As Deputy S. Dunne has said, we all make our representations to the Department and we all get the same reply. I doubt if representations make much difference but the volume of correspondence we receive is abundant evidence of the exasperation people experience.

It always strikes me as odd, and I am sorry Deputy Dr. Browne is not present because he thinks that everything run by the State is better run than it would be by anybody else, that if you pick up any American periodical, you will find the Bell Telephone Company spending thousands of pounds every year in soliciting applications for the telephone. That is a very different picture from telling people they will have to wait four years for the telephone. It is also a very different picture from that presented by the steadily increasing fixed charges we have to meet here. I often wonder what it is that makes so much difference between the relatively simple problem that confronts us and the complex problem that confronts the Bell Telephone Company. I do not know the position in Great Britain but I hope that very soon the Minister will be able to give a better account of his stewardship than he felt himself free to give last February in answer to Deputy T. Lynch's questions.

There has been a good deal of talk about the television service. I think it only right for those of us who make contact with television in the course of our public duty to go on record as saying that those required to make television broadcasts cannot but feel a sense of deep gratitude and appreciation to the staff at Montrose for the disinterested desire manifested by them to present the programmes in the best possible way. It has been my experience, and I believe it is the experience of other Parties, that we have got from the technical staff and the directors in Montrose co-operation and help which made our job a great deal easier than it otherwise would be.

I am not sure that I agree with Deputy S. Dunne that it is necessary to introduce gimmicks and diversions in order to maintain public interest in political broadcasts from the television station. This is a new medium of communication and it has been often represented to me that you cannot retain public interest for more than a short time without gimmicks. That has not been my experience. If people are interested in listening to a political broad-cast, they do not want gimmicks. If they do not want to listen, they will turn it off. That is their right. Those who are interested will listen and they prefer to hear what people have to say without the feeling introduced by gimmicks that those speaking to them are speaking to deceive.

The more we are persuaded in this country to introduce diversions into what we have to say for the purpose of attracting attention, the further we are departing from the objective truth that people are entitled to expect to hear from us. I do not think that is an exceptionally austere approach to the whole problem. It is an approach which is not easy, perhaps, for a professional producer to understand. It is probably true, if you are concerned to advertise a particular product, that you have to introduce variety and diversion into your publicity material in order to retain public attention, but I do not believe that if you are presenting political programmes, diversion of that kind should be necessary or, indeed, is desirable. The appropriate procedure is to present the facts, or propositions you wish to submit to the people objectively and as faithfully as you can. The people have their remedy: if they do not wish to listen, they can turn it off.

If they are interested, they will listen, and listen in the knowledge that they are hearing the truth and it is their function, as free men and women, to judge between the various people who come to lay policies and views before them. It is the people's right to judge them on their merit and act accordingly. I hope we shall not drift into the position—it is one of the dangers of television—in which we shall cease to be able to do that.

We all know the impact of television has operated very largely to render the public meetings less and less accessible. In urban centres public meetings are becoming a thing of the past. It is a bad thing from the point of view of the public men and a bad thing from the point of view of free people. It is good for free people to see their public representatives and it is even more important for public representatives to meet the people. The interposition of a television screen between the people and their representatives may operate over the years to create a kind of false and even fraudulent relationship which will, in my judgment, very seriously interfere with the proper functioning of democracy in a free society.

It is the good television performer rather than the good politician who will command the admiration and support of the people: I think it is the good politician who deserves that support— and I use the word "politician" in its highest sense, in the sense of describing a profession to which I am proud to belong. Some people, quite fortuitously are photogenic on television; others are not, but it is not an essential part of a good statesman's equipment to be a good television performer. It is an essential part to be ready and willing to meet the people and let them judge him and they rarely judge him wrongly, if they can meet him face to face.

There has been discussion here on the reporting of politics on television. I recognise the extreme difficulty of discharging that task satisfactorily. I do not believe it is possible to report politics to the satisfaction of everybody. All I ask, and I consider this to be of supreme importance, is that the national television and radio service should report the proceedings of this House objectively. I strenuously object to reports on television and radio which insert voices and attach them to individual Deputies, a different voice to each Deputy, because in doing that, an entirely false impression is created. The people who make the choice of the appropriate voice to attach to a Deputy may have no evil intent and yet in the ear of the people, it involves a slant which may be extremely damaging to the individual who is being reported.

If there is a report of our proceedings here, then that should be done by a detached observer who tells the people what has transpired here. The people can judge on the contents of that, and if they wish to check on the personality of any individual Deputy, they can do it by meeting him when he comes before them on a public platform, but they should never hear what he has to say or communicate to them in a whole variety of voices which, to those of us who are familiar with our proceedings here, bear little or no relation to the true personality of the person who is being reported.

I recognise the difficulty of preserving complete objectivity in the reports of Oireachtas Éireann and I recognise that with the best intentions in the world people may fail to attain perfection but the test should be objectivity and the nearer the reporting of the Oireachtas gets to that, the better, in my judgment, it will be. I take the view most strongly that it is a mistake to imagine that our people are not interested in the politics of their country: they are interested, and it is quite a mistake to imagine that 70 per cent of the population turn off the radio or television in the presence of political news. Certainly, in rural Ireland with which I am best acquainted, a very large section of the people listen with interest to reports of proceedings in this House. They are entitled to get those reports as faithfully given as is possible and they cannot get them unless they are given objectively and by one man who does not profess to reproduce the actual words spoken but who faithfully reports on what he has heard and what, as a professional reporter, he communicates to his audience.

While we have the duty of criticising the shortcomings of the Minister's Department on the occasion of the annual Estimate, it would be wrong, while doing so, not to record also its virtues, which are many and great. One of the most distinguishing marks of the Post Office service is its willingness to hear any complaint and to remedy it so far as lies in its power. Generally, the standard of courtesy and consideration for the public who use their services is very high and very admirable and it is that high standard of general consideration shown to the public that throws into such high relief the matter to which I made reference earlier, that is, the failure of the staff at certain post offices to recognise their obligation to attend to customers waiting in the post office before they discharge routine tasks that could be undertaken at some other time, if necessary in overtime, if the proper service of the public at the counter required it.

The Minister in dealing with the question of the deficit in the Department this year says that he just hopes it will right itself over the years. I hope he is right because I want to go on record now as saying that any further increase in charges for the postal or telephone services will put a burden not only on a large section of our community ill equipped to bear it but also on the trade and industry of the country which would operate to increase costs and there is no more vital matter confronting this country at the present time than the ability of industry to keep down its costs. If we allow the costs of production to rise throughout the whole industrial life of this country, we are drifting into a steadily more and more dangerous situation in which we may find ourselves excluded from the ability to compete in the export markets where we have to compete successfully if we are to survive.

The plain fact is, and it is a fact we have to face, that in the more highly industrialised countries with larger populations than we have, the advent of automation is proceeding apace. That will operate to bring down costs of production in those countries that can avail of automation. Automation is dependent on mass markets and in our circumstances here we have not got a mass market within our own control and therefore we really have not access to the possibilities of automation for the purpose of bringing down our costs pari passu with the rest of the world. That imposes on us a very special obligation to recognise the intense danger of a Government policy which operates, through one means or another, to pile up costs upon the industrial costs of production in this country.

The Post Office can make a very serious and dangerous contribution to that cost burden. It has already done so in the increased charges imposed on the occasion of the last Budget. It would be a disaster if industry and trade in this country were called upon to bear further charges of that kind.

The last question I would like to ask the Minister is this: Has the question of automation been examined in connection with the postal services here? It may be that the volume of postal material passing through our postal system does not make automation a viable proposition for us but one reads of such extraordinary wonders being performed in the larger countries where automation has successfully substantially reduced costs that I would be interested to hear from the Minister whether this question has been examined in relation to our circumstances and whether it is intended to proceed on automation lines or whether the Minister has concluded that they are not practicable here.

If any automation is in contemplation, I would be glad to have particulars of it. But, above all else, I would like reassurance from the Minister that postal and telephone charges are not to be further increased because neither the economy of the people nor of trade and industry can bear any increase.

The Minister said in introducing the Estimate that the telephone service continued to expand during 1964 and I have no doubt that it did, but I am sorry to say that the telephone service has not continued to improve during 1964, at least in that part of the country from which I come or if it has improved, I have not noticed it. Oftentimes I could get into and out of Galway, which is 21 miles from my home, before I could get through to a Galway number. I hope something will be done during the coming year about the service in Loughrea.

It is rarely that I complain about officials but I had occasion during the past year to write personally to the Minister complaining about the service in my area. I could ring the exchange time and again without getting a reply. I am happy to say that has been rectified, to my satisfaction anyhow. I would join with Deputy Dillon in saying that the attention of the staff should be drawn to the fact that their first duty is to the public whom they are supposed to serve.

In regard to television, I must at once confess that I am a television fan. I like the programmes. Maybe I have poor taste but there are certain programmes—the majority of programmes, in fact—on Telefís Éireann which I like to look at when I get the opportunity and, by and large, the programmes are good.

If I have any complaint to make, it is about some of the interviewers. I had occasion to look at programmes in which important people were interviewed during the past year, including, if I may say so, Captain O'Neill. In my opinion, some of the questions put to important visitors to this country by interviewers were in very bad taste. Maybe I am a bit touchy about being asked personal questions. It would be my own reaction. Interviewers should be a little more dignified in their approach and more careful in the type of questions they put to elicit the information which presumably they are seeking to elicit.

In that respect may I deal with one particular programme, that is, the "Late, Late Show"? I regard one of the regular panel on that show as extremely rude and personal and I cannot see why his services are being retained. On me, at any rate, he makes a very poor impression. The manner in which he deals with people who offer themselves to the programme is anything but nice. If he wants to display his bad manners, he has plenty of opportunities of doing so without having recourse to the "Late, Late Show". I do not know the man; I have never met him; but I cannot understand why his services are being retained when there are so many people equally eminent in different fields who could be invited to serve on the panel of this programme.

We heard recently a lot of talk in the Dáil and elsewhere about co-operation between the Six-County Government and our own. I respectfully suggest to the Minister that he should investigate the possibility of securing co-operation in the field of television. I do not know what the technical difficulties would be but he should try to negotiate an agreement, whether it is with the British Ministry of Posts and Telegraphs or such a Minister in the Northern Government, to provide a choice of programmes for us here. Perhaps a number of booster stations could be erected throughout the Twenty-Six Counties whereby we could see UTV and BBC programmes, and the Northern authorities could provide a similar service for their citizens so that they could see our programmes and appreciate our viewpoints as expressed on Telefís Éireann. In most parts of the country, with the exception of the east coast and areas where there is freak reception, we see no programme but the Telefís Éireann programme. It would be desirable to offer our people a choice and in particular a choice of programmes that are beamed by the Northern Ireland television authority.

I congratulate the Minister on the expansion of his Department. The rapid expansion of many services and the increasing demand for telephones, Telex and all the other services provided by his Department are an indication of the increasing prosperity of the country and, particularly, the demand from the farming community for a telephone service. Some years ago it was rare to hear of a small farmer looking for a telephone. Nowadays the majority of the applications in my part of the country are coming from the small farmers who want to have this service in order to keep in touch with their suppliers, traders, and so on. This is a service which is much appreciated and the money required to expand this service will be money well spent. As we are told, it is a service that pays for itself, unlike some of the other activities of the Minister's Department which have to be subsidised out of State funds. I do hope the expansion in the service will lead to a commensurate improvement in the quality of the service and the elimination of the delays which many of us find so exasperating.

I was amused by Deputy S. Dunne's criticism of our television service and of the people who present the Irish programmes. If I can help it, I never miss two programmes that are presented in Irish, that is, Club Céilí, produced by Peadar Ó Duigneáin, and the programme "Labhair Gaeilge Linn", supervised by Eoin Ó Súilleabháin. They speak very slowly and they speak fluent fíorGhaeltacht Irish and I am glad to say that the two announcers come from my own constituency, from the largest fíor-Ghaeltacht in this country. Anybody listening to the programme will agree that they speak slowly and clearly so that anybody who is anxious to learn Irish can follow it quite easily. "Labhair Gaeilge Linn" is an excellent programme for people who want to learn the language. I have heard many people commenting favourably on it. I would like to see more programmes in Irish on television. There are not enough programmes done through the medium of Irish and if anything could be done in that direction, it would be a great job of work.

We all realise on both sides of the House that there are delays in the installation of telephones and that there is a big waiting list. However, we must be reasonable. The Department have a very heavy programme. It has often struck me that where these gangs of Post Office men are engaged on this work and it is not possible to put any mort men on the laying of lines, and so on, it might be feasible for the Department to let some of it out on contract so as to cut down the heavy backlog of applications outstanding for a few years.

Some time ago in a part of my constituency the postmaster relinquished his post office. The post office was transferred to a different townland with the result that part of another postal area was put in with that postal area; consequently the people of that area have to travel approximately six miles to post their letters. I called to the GPO at Galway and made representations. It was agreed that a post office letter box should be supplied and hung on the telegraph pole at the particular crossroads. The matter was referred to the Department but so far nothing has been done.

I am sure the Department are not short of post office letter boxes and I can see no reason why this box could not have been supplied within a week or two to enable people to post their letters locally instead of walking six miles to and six miles back from a post box, or four miles to and four miles back on the other side. I have given particulars of this matter to the Minister's private secretary. I did that three or four weeks ago, but nothing has been done. The thing seems to be hanging fire. It was promised last September when I first took the matter up. So far no box has been hung on the pole or set in the wall. I hope now the position will be remedied without any further delay.

There is one thing the Minister should consider in relation to the building of new post offices. Private boxes should be supplied at every counter, even in the small offices, to enable people to transact their business privately. It is impossible to do that at a public counter.

While we have television, there are some areas which have not the pleasure of seeing a television programme very satisfactorily. There is a great deal of interference. In certain areas in my constituency, the people can hardly get a picture at all. The nearest booster station is Truskmore. I suppose it is impossible to beam that station down into the valleys and glens in the west. The Department should look into the erection of a booster station to cover the western part of my county. Possibly the same position arises in west Mayo. It may also arise in Donegal, for all I know. If there were a booster station on the west coast well up in the hills, the picture would get to the most remote areas in these counties, down into the valleys and glens in which it is impossible to get a picture at the moment.

I congratulate the Minister and his Department on the progress made in the past 12 months. I sincerely hope it will continue in the future.

I should like to express my appreciation of the tribute Deputy Dillon and others paid to the staff of my Department in this debate. It is true the Department does everything possible to provide an efficient public service and to be as co-operative as possible with every customer in every office throughout the country. The Department makes a point of informing grades that they are expected to serve the public within reason. We are always glad, if any Deputy or any member of the public has a complaint, to have that complaint investigated so that remedial action can be taken to facilitate in general the working of post offices and assist the public who transact business in them.

In my introductory statement, I gave a very full account of the workings of the Post Office in all its aspects. I gave a very full account of the work done over the year and for some time past and I adumbrated the work we expect to do in the year ahead. I thought my speech was a fine expression of the tremendous amount of work the Department is engaged in at the moment and has been engaged in over the past five or six years. On the telephone side, it is true the engineering branch were faced with the tremendous task of catching up on arrears of essential work that just had to be done. The Estimate for capital funds for the Department was down very close to the end of the queue for a long number of years and a great deal of work of an essential nature went into arrears.

As I have stated on many occasions here, when I had the matter examined, I found that it was absolutely necessary to convince the Government that capital funds were needed to get ahead with the colossal job facing the Post Office. Money is not everything in an operation of this nature. Equipment has to be ordered. Staffs have to be trained and augmented to deal with the increased work falling to be done. Equipment has to be ordered two years or three years in advance. It has to be specified. It has to be specially designed. It has to be manufactured to order. We are in competition with other administrations, doing exactly the same job as we are doing here.

Our telephone system compares favourably with that of other administrations. There are exceptions to that rule. Deputy Dillon mentioned the United States of America and the Bell Telephone Company. I would remind the Deputy that the Bell Telephone Company are dealing with very large concentrations of population in very large cities. They have at their disposal unlimited capital. They are in the business of providing an efficient and up-to-date telephone service. They have been in that business for a much longer period than we have.

It is true we have a waiting list. Having examined the situation, when I became Minister, I decided it would be better to have a waiting list and provide the telephone subscribers we already had with an efficient service rather than add indiscriminately to the numbers and thereby provide all with a very bad service. I had to make that decision. I made it. I decided that whatever capital funds were made available to me by this House, I would use them to the greatest possible extent in the provision of exchanges, underground and overground cables, and all the other paraphernalia that constitutes an efficient means of providing a satisfactory telephone service. Anybody reading my opening statement will see that that policy is paying off now. Provided capital is made available at the same rate in the future as at present, we can look forward with confidence to completing this major operation in the next three or four years.

Some Deputies may think, when in reply to a Parliamentary Question they are given the number on the waiting list, that that waiting list is static. That is not so. New subscribers are being connected every day and, at the same time, new applications are coming in. I found it would take more man hours to connect what are described as "long-line cases" rather than applicants closer to an exchange. I found we would have to by-pass the long-line cases in order to keep up the rate of installation. I have great sympathy for these long-line cases, some of whom are four and a half miles from an exchange. But the cost of an installation in such cases would involve a capital expenditure of between £500 and £1,200. I had to make a decision to conserve as far as possible the capital made available to me to provide new telephones and I decided to make the service available to the greater number. However, we have now reached the stage where we can have another look at these long-line cases and other applicants waiting for a long number of years to see how many of them we can get done within a reasonable time in the future.

I do not wish to see a waiting list for telephones; but I am afraid we will always have a waiting list, because new applications are constantly being added. It all depends on how long the person has to wait. I know it is not good business to have people waiting two or three years for a telephone. However, in the situation in which I found myself, with the staff at my disposal, the equipment it was possible to get between 1954 and 1962 and the amount of capital provided, it was impossible to go on with the two operations at the one time. As I said, I decided to go ahead with the construction of a virtually new telephone system, letting the waiting list rise until we were in a position to give every applicant a fairly efficient service.

Deputy Tully raised the question of the appointment of auxiliary postmen. Sometimes I wonder if it is advisable to deal with matters of this kind raised in the House or ignore them and let them pass. Appearances are sometimes very deceptive. I want to deal with the cases in which the Deputy alleged there was political influence—that they were political appointments, coming even from myself. Take the case Deputy Spring raised here of the appointment of an auxiliary postman at Castlemaine. First of all, this is not in Deputy Spring's constituency at all. Auxiliary postmen have been appointed for a long number of years according to certain rules and regulations. They are appointed by the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs—I am responsible. When only one applicant comes from the employment exchange, the papers do not come to me. The appointment is made at a different level under delegated authority. When a number of people are nominated by the employment exchange, the papers come to me and I personally make the appointment. As far as the Castlemaine case is concerned, the papers did not come before me at all. I looked at them after the question was put down in the House. I found there was not a vacancy for an auxiliary postman in Castlemaine at all in that sense. It ws a temporary appointment, pending the appointment of an established postman in the area. Apparently, the young boy who happened to be home from England was registered at the employment exchange, and only one name was sent forward by the exchange.

Is it not true that a married man with a big family was doing the job?

The head postmaster let that man go, because he was alleged to be living outside a threemile radius of the Post Office. I did not see the papers at all. The fact is that if the post is maintained, the vacancy will be filled by an established postman. It is an established postman's post. The young man supposed to be brought back from England will not be eligible for that post at all.

I remember well the case in Cavan. The head postmaster took on the man nominated by the employment exchange. After a few days, the employment exchange sent forward the name of another man, a married man with a family. The head postmaster employed the married man. Granted he has a bit of land. I know he has because I read the papers. The married man was in the post and I was being asked to put out the married man and put in the single man. I would not do it.

That is not fair. The single man was three weeks in the job. He was dropped because Deputy Smith withdrew his support from him, and the Minister knows it. I have the letter in my possession.

That is not true.

Is it near the truth?

It is not.

I have the letter in my possession.

The Deputy has a letter saying that when the man was appointed, it was assumed nobody else was being nominated by the employment exchange and, if there had not been, the man would have been appointed.

I have the Minister's letter and Deputy Smith's letter. That clears up the issue.

The employment exchange sent forward the name of the married man with a family. I had nothing whatever to do with the displacement of the man. It was done by the head postmaster. The papers came to me and I left the married man in the position.

As far as the appointment at Longwood is concerned, I appointed a person I thought needed the post more than anybody else and who was capable of doing the job.

You knocked off a man with six children and 20 years' service and replaced him with an apprentice.

He was not a postman for 20 years. The man had other occupations. There is no question of its being a political appointment at all.

Indeed there is.

There is not. I could go a little further in the matter but I do not want to do so. Insofar as uniforms, pay and matters of that nature, affecting staff are concerned, they are discussed between the Department and the union. Pay and pensions are matters for determination at conciliation and if no agreement is reached, they go to arbitration.

I was talking about the ones with no pensions, the auxiliaries.

That is a separate matter which I will look into. If the Deputy gives me the name, I will look into the matter. Deputy Tully suggested that the union catering for engineering grades had given notice of their proposal to withdraw from the conciliation and arbitration schemes from 1st April next. No such notice has been received by my Department. The Deputy also asked about trainee technicians and the wastage in relation to persons availing of the new scheme. In the last group we aimed at having 100; 113 were taken on and some 15 resigned in the first couple of weeks. We are taking on two more to raise them to 100.

I am glad of that.

We had 231 training in 1964 and 23 left the service after a few weeks when they found that the class of work did not suit them. We try to replace personnel according as they resign from that service. Deputy Tully and Deputy S. Dunne referred to instances where telephones were installed out of course for particular applicants. That can happen under the system under which telephones are installed. We try to instal as many as possible of the outstanding applications at the one time in any given exchange area and it is then possible that a person who had an application in for two years and a person with an application in for two weeks, would get installation about the same time. In the case the Deputy referred to—he identified the person to me—it happened that he is not in the telephone exchange area in which the other applications are who are being dealt with at the moment. They are in the Drumconrath telephone area and the other individual was in the Ardee area. I had looked at the application at the time to see if I could have him brought in——

He is 50 yards away——

——but I could not do it.

Councillor Dunne is only 50 yards away from the place where a man with an application of three weeks got the telephone.

There is no political significance whatever in the matter. The Deputy also inquired why the laying of telephone cables had not been entrusted to an Irish firm. I would be glad indeed if this was possible but unfortunately there is no Irish contractor in a position to carry out the highly specialised work of laying and joining the cables. The members of the House will be glad to hear, however, that Irish labour is employed as far as possible by the contractors on the less skilled part of the work and that all work on laying ducts and so on is given to Irish firms.

Deputy Tully and Deputy Dillon asked why the financial position of the Department has not been improved to a greater degree by the arrangement under which other Government Departments now pay in cash for postal services. So far as my Department's commercial accounts are concerned, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs always took credit for these services. The position is that the new arrangement to which the Deputies referred was introduced for the financial year 1964-65. I made that clear when introducing my Estimate on 23rd April, 1964.

I was asked to deal with interference in regard to television and radio reception. As Deputies know, I appointed a committee on 24th September, 1963, for a period of two years to advise me on the regulations to be made regarding interference. Regulations for the control of interference caused by low-power electric motors came into force on 1st December, 1963. Regulations governing permissible radiation limits, etc., from ignition equipment came into force on 1st February, 1964. It will be a considerable time before draft regulations are made regarding other prolific sources of interference such as that caused by industrial, scientific and medical equipment and by television receivers. The committee is studying these problems. It is not possible to deal effectively with the problem of interference by legislating by Act or Order that all electrical equipment must be fitted with suppressors to prevent electrical interference. The fitting of suppressors is not practicable or effective in regard to certain kinds of interference. The problem is not one of preventing interference altogether— this is virtually impracticable—but one of reducing undue interference to a level which will not trouble the listener or viewer. This can be expected only for the home sound and television services and it involved specifying requirements for different kinds of electrical apparatus.

Even if electrical interference could be eliminated, inter-station interference would persist because the broadcasting and television wavebands are unduly crowded. Listeners and viewers should satisfy themselves (1) that they have an efficient aerial, (2) that the electrical equipment within the household is in proper working order, and (3) that any electrical goods they buy will not cause interference with radio or television programmes. All powers appropriate for the investigation and detection of interference with wireless telegraphy receiving apparatus were conferred on Radio Éireann under the Broadcasting Authority (Control of Interference) Order 1960. Any prosecutions for failure to comply with the regulations would be a matter for the Minister.

As Deputies will appreciate, it is not just a simple business of controlling other people's equipment and apparatus, especially when it comes to medical equipment and other classes of equipment of that nature. We have some of the finest people in the country on this committee which is highly technical and I follow their advice to the greatest degree possible. They advised me that this is not just a simple operation and it will take time and patience to get the full co-operation of all people.

What about home interference?

That is regulated by applications for wavelengths which are made at the international conference that our people attend. As far as we are concerned, we make representations to the Governments concerned in regard to any interference that is caused here which we know is caused by foreign stations. We have met with a fair amount of co-operation from outside administrations in this matter, but, as I said, the wavebands are overcrowded and it is difficult to find a means of having clear reception or non-interference in wavelengths between one station and another.

That is no answer. It seems to be getting worse.

So far as sound radio is concerned, the only answer is VHF, which is different from the medium wave. Last year this House authorised the Authority to increase its capital to £3 million. Portion of that capital is being used for the introduction of VHF and when they have that erected on the television broadcasting sites I am looking forward to much clearer reception on our sound broadcasting service and to greater coverage.

Deputy Dillon asked about automation. For a number of years past, we have used a data processing operation in the Savings Branch and we have now extended that to telephone accounts. At the moment the Department are in consultation with a firm of consultants on the question of extending that process in the Post Office. We are examining the whole postal service with a view to reducing to a minimum the cost of providing the service for the whole country. We are having a look at automation in that connection in the sense that we are trying to put our postmen on motorised vehicles. I have indicated, too, in my statement that in the new sorting office we are taking steps to have automation utilised to the fullest possible extent.

In so far as letter sorting by automation is concerned, a couple of years ago I had a look at the machine at Luton in England. I do not think the volume of letters in Ireland would warrant the installation of a machine of that nature. When we deal with automation, we are also dealing with the question of human labour. A decision to go into automation in the Post Office at an accelerated pace would mean the displacement of a large number of people. We have over 18,000 people employed and automation reduces the number in employment. It would not be a simple operation for the Post Office to introduce a high degree of automation in a short number of years. The matter is being looked at and as the state of our economy improves and as employment improves, the Post Office will give careful consideration to the extension of automation in its services.

Vote put and agreed to.
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