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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 May 1965

Vol. 215 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Extradition Bill, 1965: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

Most Deputies will, I think, be aware that this Bill replaces the Extradition Bill, 1963, which lapsed on the dissolution of the last Dáil. After the Second Stage was agreed to, the Committee Stage was passed on the understanding that the Bill would be recommitted to consider some Opposition amendments which were to be tabled. Subsequently, it became necessary to await the outcome of litigation, in Britain as well as here, as to the validity of the present arrangements for the reciprocal enforcement of criminal warrants between Britain and ourselves. As a result of the outcome of this litigation and of further consideration of the Bill, there are a number of changes in the Bill which Deputies have before them now as compared with the 1963 Bill.

Having regard to the fact that the general principle of having an up-to-date extradition law was agreed to in the last Dáil and is no doubt still generally acceptable I do not think I need spend much time in a detailed review of the various provisions of the Bill, particularly as an Explanatory Memorandum has been circulated with it and as we shall have an opportunity on the Committee Stage of going into particular points in detail. However, I think it right to draw to the attention of Deputies that Part II of the Bill, which provides for extradition generally— that is, otherwise than to Northern Ireland and Britain—is based almost entirely on the terms of the European Convention of Extradition, which was prepared under the auspices of the Council of Europe. This Convention came into force in 1960 and so far has been ratified by six members of the Council, namely, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Norway, Sweden and Turkey. The enactment of the Bill will enable the Convention to be ratified by this country and for us then to have reciprocal extradition arrangements with these countries after the making of a formal Government order under section 8 applying the provisions of Part II of the Bill to them. As regards other countries, we may either enter into separate and formal extradition agreements with them or have informal extradition arrangements provided the Government are satisfied that reciprocal extradition facilities will be available from the countries concerned. In the latter cases the Government order applying Part II to these countries may be made subject to such conditions, exceptions and qualifications as may be specified in the order.

The European Convention was drafted in accordance with principles which involve a departure from the existing law of extradition as set out in the Extradition Act, 1870. Probably the main departure is that the Convention does not require the requesting State to submit prima facie evidence against the person claimed. Under the 1870 Act a prima facie case was obligatory in every case. This prima facie requirement is a feature of the extradition of the common law countries. On the other hand, these countries do not generally object to the extradition of their nationals once such evidence is forthcoming. In the European civil law countries, extradition may be allowed on evidence that a person is wanted for prosecution or punishment under an order of a competent authority of the requesting country; but, again speaking generally, these countries will not allow their nationals to be extradited and prefer to try them at home for the offence committed abroad.

Insistence on the doctrine of the prima facie case rests to some extent on the suspicion of inadequacy of proceedings under other systems of law. If this ground were fully accepted there would be no extradition at all and no concerted action among States for the suppression of crime. It is axiomatic that before we make an extradition agreement with any particular country we must satisfy ourselves that the legal system and judicial institutions of that country are such as to ensure that the extradited person will get a fair trial. If we are not satisfied on this point we should not make an extradition agreement at all. We must accept that the legal systems of the other Council of Europe member countries are satisfactory. Certainly the nationals of those countries are quite satisfied with their criminal procedures and, as a general rule, it will be nationals of these countries that we will be extraditing. These nationals cannot complain that they will not get a fair trial for an ordinary criminal offence.

Ordinarily the act for which extradition is requested will not be an offence here, though it must be an act which, if committed here, would be an offence. Accordingly, our society has not been injured by the alleged criminal act and the law which is to be enforced as a consequence of extradition is that of the requesting State. As the particular act for which extradition is sought is not punishable here, all that we should want to know is that the charge is such as to call for concerted repressive action, for co-operation in having the alleged offender brought before a court in the requesting country for the purposes of having a fair trial.

It is true that the surrender of a person for prosecution will, if he is subsequently adjudged not guilty, involve him in hardship; but this does not seem a reason why the requested State should insist on substituting its preliminary criminal procedure, which is often quite different in character from that of the requesting State. It is a hardship on anyone, whether extradited or not and whether prima facie evidence is available or not, to be accused and to be subsequently found “not guilty”. In most legal systems an accused person has legal redress in cases of malicious prosecution and in many countries he may be given his costs if a case is brought against him which should clearly not have been brought at all. These cases are, however, quite exceptional. The fact that an accused is discharged usually does not mean that he should not have been charged at all, but that the prosecution have not discharged the burden of proof.

Apart from the feeling of suspicion that other systems of criminal procedure are in some way inadequate, another ground for urging the continuation of the system of requiring prima facie evidence is based on the protection of the individual against oppression. It must be remembered that the Bill provides adequate safeguards against oppression by prohibiting extradition for political offences. Moreover, this prohibition extends to cases where there are substantial grounds for believing that the request for extradition, even where it appears to relate to an ordinary criminal offence, has been made for the purpose of prosecuting or punishing a person on account of his race, religion, nationality or political opinion or that that person's position may be prejudiced for any of these reasons.

However, there may be particular cases where it would be desirable to allow the Government to provide, in the interests of having full reciprocity and where an extradition agreement may allow for the extradition of our nationals, that the relevant extradition arrangement should require the requesting country to produce to us sufficient evidence of the commission of the offence by the person claimed. Provision to this effect has been made in section 22.

As regards the extradition of nationals, which is not specifically prohibited under the present law, the Bill provides for such a prohibition in the absence of any provision to the contrary in the extradition agreement. Here again the Bill allows the Government room to negotiate with countries with differing policies in this respect. If the law of some countries does not allow them to extradite their nationals the Government will no doubt include a similar prohibition on the extradition of our nationals in the relevant arrangement. It would be undesirable, however, that an Irish citizen who has committed a grave offence abroad and is exempt from extradition under such an arrangement should go unpunished. Section 38 provides accordingly that at the request of the country in which the offence was committed the Attorney General may direct proceedings in respect of the offence to be taken in our courts. Where, on the other hand, a country is prepared to allow extradition of its nationals, we shall be free to allow reciprocity in this respect also.

Another departure from the principles of the 1870 Act is that extraditable offences are not being specifically listed. Instead, an extraditable offence is being defined by reference to the maximum penalty which may be imposed for it under the law of the two countries concerned or, where the person has already been sentenced, by the actual penalty imposed. The advantage of having a list of extradition crimes is that extradition can be confined to specified serious crimes, such as murder, manslaughter, robbery with violence, etc., but in practice, as in the 1870 Act, some crimes are specified in general terms which would permit extradition for what possibly might be trivial offences (for example, obtaining money or goods by false pretences). The disadvantage is that fresh legislation must be enacted whenever it becomes necessary to add to the list of extraditable crimes. Difficulties may arise, too, owing to the lack of uniformity in the definition of crimes under different systems of criminal law.

On the whole, the balance of advantage seems to lie in the solution adopted in the European Convention. Accordingly section 10 of the Bill provides that an offence to be extraditable must be punishable under the law of both countries to the extradition arrangement by a maximum of at least one year's imprisonment or, if there has been a conviction and sentence, where imprisonment for a period of at least four months or a more severe penalty, such as the death penalty, has been imposed. It may be noted that these limits are minimum limits. A particular extradition arrangement could provide, for example, that extradition would be allowed only for offences carrying a maximum penalty of at least two years or even five years.

These are, I think, the main features of the Part of the Bill dealing with extradition generally. I now turn to Part III of the Bill which authorises for the first time the execution of Northern Ireland warrants in the State, as well as the continuance, with amendments, of the arrangements for executing British warrants which operated up to last year. Under the former procedure, which was based on the Petty Sessions (Ireland) Act of 1851, the enforcement of British and Irish warrants, when fully endorsed, was entirely automatic with no provision for judicial review, apart of course from habeas corpus proceedings. The 1963 Bill introduced a number of safeguards into that procedure by providing for restrictions on the enforcement of warrants in political, revenue and purely military cases and for each arrested person to be given an opportunity of consulting a solicitor if he desired to do so. Since that Bill was last before the House, however, the Petty Sessions Act procedure was declared invalid by the British House of Lords in a case which concerned a man named Hammond who was arrested in England on a warrant issued here. Subsequently, in July, 1964, the British authorities, as a temporary measure, restored the enforceability of our warrants by Order in Council. Since then they have, in consultation with us, introduced a Bill putting the enforcement of our warrants in Britain and Northern Ireland on a basis which is on the general lines of that contained in Part III of this Bill. The British Bill has been passed by their House of Lords and has had a Second Reading in their House of Commons.

On our side, too, there was litigation which resulted in the Supreme Court declaring, in July, 1964, that section 29 of the Petty Sessions Act was unconstitutional in so far as it enabled a person to be removed from the jurisdiction without having an opportunity of applying for habeas corpus.

Having regard to all these developments, Part III of the 1963 Bill has been extensively revised and a number of additional safeguards introduced. It is now provided that a person who has been arrested under a British or Northern Ireland warrant must be brought before a justice or the District Court or a peace commissioner. The justice may then remand the prisoner in custody or on bail for delivery into the custody of the British or Northern Ireland police. The prisoner may not be removed from the State, except with his consent, for a minimum of 15 days after such an order is made or while any application to the High Court or the Minister for Justice for his release is pending. The object of this provision is, of course, to ensure that the person concerned has an adequate opportunity for considering whether he desires to exercise his constitutional rights. However, an obligation is being placed on the Court to tell him of the existence of these safeguards at the time it makes the order.

A further important and new safeguard, which is contained in section 47, requires that the District Court shall not make an order for the removal of a person from the State if it appears that the offence specified in the warrant does not correspond with an offence which under the law of the State is an indictable offence or is punishable on summary conviction by imprisonment for a maximum period of at least six months. If the court is so satisfied it must discharge the prisoner.

A new provision in section 49 deals with provisional warrants. Before now there has been no provision, such as there is in Part II, for the arrest of a person in a case of urgency where the warrant has not arrived, but this section now provides that the district justice may issue a provisional warrant on the sworn information of a member of the Garda Síochána, not below the rank of inspector, that he has reason to believe that a warrant has been issued for the arrest of a person accused or convicted of an indictable offence, but that the warrant is not yet in his possession, and that he has received a request made on the ground of urgency for the arrest of that person. The section goes on to provide that such a warrant will be valid for only five days and that a person arrested under it must be brought before the District Court which may remand him either in custody or on bail for a period of not more than three days.

Another departure from the 1851 Act procedure is contained in section 52 where provision is made for releasing on bail a person in respect of whom an order for his handing over has been made, on condition that he will present himself at a named Garda Station at the time mentioned in a notice in writing to be served on him by the Gardaí and which will, of course, be related to the time the Gardaí expect the British or Northern Ireland escort to arrive. If he does not present himself at the time stated a warrant may be issued for his arrest.

The other safeguards included in Part III of the 1963 Bill have been maintained. For example, there is a prohibition on the surrender to Britain or Northern Ireland of persons accused of political, revenue or purely military offences or in cases where there are substantial reasons for believing that the persons concerned will, if surrendered, be prosecuted for political or purely military offences. Warrants relating to imprisonment in default of the payment of a fine will not be enforced; nor will warrants for summary offences, unless the alleged offenders have had an opportunity of attending voluntarily at the relevant British or Northern Ireland court.

As I have said, Part III is on the general lines of the British Bill on this subject, which is well on its way to the statute book. I very gladly place on record my appreciation of the very valuable help we received from the British and Northern authorities during the consultations on both Bills, all of which augurs well for the extension of this co-operation in the criminal field to other aspects of mutual assistance in such matters as the enforcement of maintenance orders and the enforcement of judgments in civil cases. I shall press ahead with these other matters, of which some preliminary examination has already taken place, as soon as this Bill has become law.

In conclusion, I should like to express the hope that the Bill will commend itself to the House as a practical, non-controversial measure which represents a considerable step forward in co-operation in the administration of justice. If there are any particular aspects that Deputies would like to have clarified at this stage I shall endeavour to deal with them when replying but I will, in any event, give very careful consideration between now and Committee Stage to any suggestions that may be made in the course of the debate.

As the Minister has mentioned, this Bill is largely of an non-controversial nature. It is getting its second introduction in the House because, generally speaking, we discussed the provisions of the Bill when discussing the 1963 Bill. So far as the extradition procedure and provisions are concerned, the Bill is almost entirely based on the provisions of the European Convention on Extradition. When discussing the previous Bill, I paid a tribute, which I should now like to repeat, to the Minister's officials for the manner in which the Bill has been drafted showing very clearly how the various Articles of the European Convention are brought into our legislation. Again, generally speaking, in this Bill the draftsmen have endeavoured to use the precise phrases used in the European Convention. I think that is all to the good. It makes the Bill very easy to read and in conjunction with the Convention very easy to understand.

There is one point on which I am not clear in regard to the Bill or the Minister's remarks, that is, the link up between Part II and Part III. The general provisions in respect to extradition in the Bill do not so far as I can see preclude extradition treaties or agreements being made with Great Britain, for example. It is provided in Part III that the provision applies only to Northern Ireland, Great Britain, Wales and Scotland. I should like to be clear in my mind as to whether the purpose of the Bill is to ensure that you cannot have an extradition agreement with Great Britain or Northern Ireland and if the procedure in relation to Northern Ireland, Great Britain, Scotland, Wales, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man is to be governed by the procedure of backing of the warrants without any formal extradition agreement. If that is so, it possibly answers some of the queries I have in mind, but it does not seem to be clear from the Bill. It is good that we should have formal extradition agreements with other countries. We do not want to shelter anybody else's criminals and I am quite sure they do not want to shelter ours.

One of the features of the Bill is that in conjunction with, I hope, many other countries—I think there are about 40 countries with which England has extradition treaties—provided we adhere to the European Convention in the future, we shall be in a position to enter into these formal arrangements. As the Minister pointed out, these provisions will not apply in cases of political, revenue or military offences.

In connection with military offences, I am a little puzzled as to why the Minister adopted the phraseology of his predecessor. Instead of referring to military offences, he referred to purely military offences. I do not know if there is any important distinction. The Minister's predecessor was queried on that when the last Bill was going through the House and I notice the Minister's introductory remarks have gone back to the phraseology of "purely military offences". There is no such phrase in the Bill. There is no definition in the Bill of "purely military" as distinct from "military". Let me say I did not raise the point last time. One of my colleagues did. I noted it then but did not think it was of very great importance but I wonder, now that I hear the phrase repeated today, if there is not some considerable significance to be attached to it. I should like the Minister to explain it when he is replying.

The Minister dealt with the point raised in the course of discussion of the last Bill, that is, the question of requiring the requesting country to show that a prima facie case exists when the requesting country are seeking to extradite a person. The position is that the Anglo-American code dealing with the extradition does require that when a country seeks to extradite a person from another country, they should show that a prima facie case exists against the person they want to extradite.

The continental system of extradition does not contain any such requirement and it was urged, when the last Bill was before the House — the appeal came from these benches and, I think, was reasonably sympathetically received by the Minister—that if there was anything we could do to preserve the requirement of having a prima facie case made out, if a request were made to us, we should do it. It seems to me that there is a substantial improvement in section 22 of the Bill in that direction.

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that under that section it will not now be possible to negotiate with other countries who subscribe to the European Convention in order to contain in the extradition provisions some requirement that a prima facie case must be presented to us when a request is made. If I am right in reading section 22 in that way, then I think it is a considerable improvement as against the Bill when last presented to us.

It is provided in the Bill also that the requesting country can only proceed against a person for the offence in respect of which he is extradited except in certain circumstances dealt with in section 39. As far as that is concerned, I do not know whether there is any way in which the country, taking this country as being the country to which a request for extradition is made, can get any guarantee or assurance that that will be the position, that the only proceeding to be taken will be for the particular offence for which the person is being extradited. As the Minister has pointed out, and I think he is correct in this, we have to take some things on faith and deal with countries as with individuals. Living would become quite impossible if we were not in a position where we could rely on the assurances and good faith of other countries. It seems to me that while we cannot get any absolute guarantee in the matter, it is one of those things we must take on faith and if we have doubts with regard to the other country, the proper thing is not to make any extradition agreement with it.

There is another aspect of this—it was in the last Bill as it is in this one— about which I am not entirely happy. It is the provision dealing with extradition for political offences. It seems to me that under this Bill the sole arbiter of what is or is not a political offence will be the Minister. We have our own peculiar difficulties in this country. I do not think it is necessary to underscore them in any way. Other countries probably have their difficulties.

The question of defining what is a political offence and of deciding on it is one which should be taken by the Government rather than by an individual Minister. I am quite sure the Minister for Justice is prepared to shoulder the responsibility, if it is put on him, and I know we have a system of collective responsibility, but under the Bill as it stands, it is open to the Minister for Justice, whoever he may be, to give his own ruling, to make up his own mind without consultation with the Government or anyone else. It would be preferable that the question of deciding what is a political offence or whether an offence is a political offence should be for the Government rather than the Minister.

In relation to our own particular difficulties—this relates principally to Part III rather than to the general extradition provisions—if it were possible to define in advance, to some extent at any rate, what would be regarded as a political or military offence —let us even take the Minister's expression "purely military"—it might be better. We should try to clear the air.

We have entered into discussions with people in the north and they have been welcomed, north and south. They are not entirely new or novel because a certain amount of practical co-operation has been going on over the years, but to the extent that there is a new spirit and a new atmosphere there, I think it would be of assistance if we were to make it quite clear that any offences committed by our citizens in an unauthorised or illegal way, offences connected with violence or armed offences or sorties across the Border, would not be sheltered by us on the basis that those are political offences. It would be all to the good and would clear the air a lot and foster a spirit of friendship and goodwill, north and south.

In saying that, I am conscious of the fact that under the Bill it is not necessary for us, or for any country to whom a request for extradition is made, to extradite one's own nationals and that that will not, in most cases, be altered under this Bill. It is quite simply set out in the European Convention in Article 6 that contracting parties shall have the right to refuse extradition of its nationals. The provision has been included in the Bill that "unless the relevant extradition provisions otherwise provide," and it seems to me that deliberately the door is kept open that we may, if we wish, make provision that we will extradite our own nationals. The Minister has indicated that that is going to be dependent on whether or not similar facilities are given by countries with whom we have these extradition agreements. However, I simply want to leave the thought with the Minister at this stage. I think it would do nothing but good that there should be some firm and clear pronouncement from the Minister and the Government on this subject.

As the Minister has pointed out— and again this follows exactly the terms of the European Convention— it is not now proposed to list what are to be regarded as extraditable offences. Instead, they are defined by category, but provision does exist in the Bill, and certainly exists in the European Convention, for States to compile a list, if they wish, of offences which will be regarded as extraditable or, on the other hand, to compile a list of offences which will not be regarded as extraditable. In those cases there is an obligation on the country to deposit the list with, I think, the Secretary General. A number of offences are set out as being non-extraditable. The principal ones, as I have mentioned and as the Minister has mentioned, are political offences, offences connected with revenue, or military offences. There are other ones listed in sections 15 to 20 of the Bill, all of which follow the European Convention very closely. I do not think any of them are cases to which anyone in the House would take exception.

With regard to some slight alterations made in the Bill, I should like to ask the Minister to give the reasons for them. I have already dealt with section 22 and the Minister has indicated to me that my reasoning as to why this amendment is made is correct. I notice in section 43 which appears in Part III that while under the previous Bill, it was provided, although not in precisely the same lay-out, that the backing of warrants would apply to indictable offences or offences punishable on summary conviction to a maximum period of three months, that has now been extended to six months. I should like to know the reason for that, whether any representations were made either by us or to us in that connection. I think I am correct in saying also that while it was set out in the 1963 Bill that the operation of the Bill was retrospective in this section, that is not there now.

There is a suggestion I should like to make to the Minister in connection with section 37, which requires a witness to some of the documents that have to be forwarded in connection with extradition proceedings. All that is required is that they be authenticated by the oath of some witness or by the seal of some Minister of State. It seems to me that that is leaving it a little loose and that some official person, such as a consular official or embassy official, should be required to act as a witness. However, that is a matter that can be dealt with on Committee. As I said, this Bill is non-controversial. It is worth having it enacted. If the previous Bill had been enacted, it might have obviated a certain amount of difficulty, both for us and our neighbours across the sea.

I am not a French scholar and my final query to the Minister is in connection with Article 2 of the Convention. I do not know whether I have misread this or not. Article 2 deals with extraditable offences and sets out that extradition should be granted in respect of offences punishable in the requested or requesting countries by deprivation of liberty, or under a deportation order, for a maximum period of at least one year or by a more severe penalty. It seems to me that what is intended there is not a maximum period of one year but a minimum period of one year and it seems to me also that that is the way we have construed it in the Bill. In setting out the category of offences which are to be extraditable offences, we have read that clearly as meaning a minimum period of one year rather than a maximum. The reason I ask is that I am only able to read the English translation. Possibly the Minister may be able to read the French and assist the House.

The point made by Deputy O'Higgins struck me in regard to the use of the word "maximum" and it appeared that it should be "minimum". Everybody has agreed that the need to ensure that this country will not be a haven for thugs is very obvious and must be, in so far as we can help to make it, a matter of international agreement. To that extent certainly this Bill is entirely uncontroversial. A thought which occurs to me regarding the whole question of extradition, looking back over events of the past 12 months or so and thinking of what occurred in our courts, runs along the lines that we seem to have been operating for a long time in a sphere of illegality in the matter of extradition. It must have been so for quite a number of years that certain extraditory action of one kind or another by the authorities here did not have the sanction of the Constitution. If that can happen over long periods it makes one concerned, to say the least of it, that the agencies of the State should permit such a situation to continue until eventually it was exposed by a citizen of the State resorting to his ordinary right of taking action in the courts.

The question of a political offence troubles me for reasons which I think are somewhat different from those given by Deputy O'Higgins. I have searched through the Bill for any definition of what constitutes a political offence and I have also examined the European Convention on Extradition seeking enlightenment on this point and the only reference I can find that could be remotely described as a definition of a political offence is in Article 3, section I, which states:

Extradition shall not be granted if the offence in respect of which it is requested is regarded by the requested Party as a political offence or as an offence connected with a political offence.

In other words, the nearest you get to a definition there is that the Government of the country in which the person sought is residing or hiding will have the right to determine whether, in fact, the person is a political offender or not. That is a very loose kind of definition and one which I think is open to all sorts of interpretation.

Different countries have different ideas regarding what constitutes a political offence. In this country it is not unusual for the Government of the day, whatever it might be, to consider that any action or thought in opposition is a political offence. It is not followed up, of course, to the extent of being punished except where it is related to acts of violence. But I have known in my own lifetime a situation where political offenders were arraigned before a specially constituted court which was called a special criminal court although the offences were purely political, and people were sentenced and described as criminals although their offences were political. This question of the definition of a political offence is one upon which there should be some clarity. We should have moved by now far beyond the position which was occupied by the Governments here over the years. I remember how they sought to degrade—each Government in turn—the activities of the Opposition by describing them as criminal activities, as in some parts they may have been on occasions on every side, but which to a large extent were definitely not criminal and which also in very many cases, although described as criminal, were definitely of a political nature.

This is related to the purely domestic situation but it can be relevant to events which are liable to occur in Europe generally when our relations with other Governments, when there is a change of Government in other countries, can put us into a position where we may find ourselves having to determine whether a person who is resident here is or is not guilty of a political offence in another country. It is very hard for people living here to make an objective or any kind of considered judgment in such a situation. How are we to judge really whether or not a person who has fled here from a European country where a Government is not to his liking and where he may be sought by a Government on what they allege to be criminal grounds, has a genuine case for claiming asylum on political grounds here? How are we to determine such a case without having some definition before us as to what constitutes generally a political offence?

As far as the suggestion made by Deputy O'Higgins is concerned in relation to the spirit of ecumenism which seeks to pervade the atmosphere vis-á-vis North and South at the moment, I should tread warily, as one who has no sympathy with those people who adopt violence in the solution of any problem but at the same time as one who must have regard to the political facts of life and who knows that prejudices and animosities die hard. They should be let die gently; like old soldiers, they should just fade away. Let us not make haste too speedily in this matter so far as our neighbours and friends in the North are concerned.

The Bill, generally, is very necessary in relation to the ordinary arrangements that one country must make with another and the Minister has done well to take so much of the terminology of the European Convention on Extradition and embrace it in the Bill so as to put us in this matter as far as possible on all-fours with the majority of other countries in Europe.

I should also like to deal purely with the question of political offences because, apart from that, I think the whole Bill is beyond criticism, certainly in its general principles. We should not be too self-conscious on this point of political offences because it is a problem which affects other countries also. I remember being in Paris at the height of the political crisis over General de Gaulle's policy for the evacuation of Algeria. At that time, particularly at night, the city was crammed with heavily-armed gendarmes and even troops. I remember seeing the base of the Eiffel Tower entirely cordoned off by a number of troops which appeared to me to be about battalion strength but I did not regard it as healthy to walk around counting them for too long.

At that time in Paris it was not uncommon for explosions to take place in certain parts of the city when people, ostensibly for political reasons, threw explosive or incendiary bombs into shops and even restaurants and places of entertainment. In a situation like that what is our position to be if a man is found to have taken life in another country and to have taken it illegally and has taken sanctuary here claiming that he killed for political reasons? It appears to place the Minister in an extremely difficult situation indeed.

In section 3, the definition section, there is one phrase which does not help very much. It states on page 4:

"political offence" does not include the taking or attempted taking of the life of a Head of State or a member of his family.

That would mean, if we revert to the French illustration, that the assassination or attempted assassination of the President or a member of his family would be an extraditable offence on the face of it but the taking of the life of the Minister for External Affairs would not on the face of it be an extraditable offence if the offender could say that he killed a Minister of the French Government for purely political reasons and that therefore he should continue to have the benefit of sanctuary in this country.

I do not know that the European Convention has been strictly followed and that therefore it is not only difficult but probably most unwise for us to vary the phrasing of Part II of the Bill. I think the Minister has been very wise in following the Convention word for word or as nearly as possible but I would hope that this matter of political offences would be clarified with other parties to the European Convention at an early date.

We in this country have a record of acts of violence committed for political reasons but we should try to look back over the whole conception of what actions should be regarded as purely political. I know, like Deputy Michael O'Higgins, that the word "purely" does not come into this any more than it comes into military offences but I believe this whole conception of political offences is really based on the feeling that no man should be prosecuted for his political opinions. His actions in furtherance of his political opinions may well be criminal and to my mind should be punished as such if they are fully criminal actions but the advocacy of certain political theories, while it may be most undesirable in his own country, is something that we would not be prepared to regard as sufficient grounds for extradition from this country.

In section 11, subsection (2), in reference to political offences, it is set out as follows:—

The same rule shall apply if there are substantial grounds for believing that a request for extradition for an ordinary criminal offence has been made for the purpose of prosecuting or punishing a person on account of his race, religion, nationality or political opinion or that that person's position may be prejudiced for any of these reasons.

That is surely the basis for our whole Convention. We do not wish to help a government to prosecute one of its own citizens purely because he has the wrong political beliefs in the eyes of his own government. We do not want him to be prosecuted on account of his political opinions. But, supposing a man, because of his political opinions, or claiming that it is for that reason, breaks into a bank to steal money or breaks into a post office to steal money or cuts down telegraph poles to disrupt communications or lays explosives or indulges in incendiary activities ostensibly for political reasons and all those acts are virtually criminal and would have to be accepted as such, that is going to place the Minister in a very difficult situation. I sincerely hope that the situation will not arise but I do hope that the Minister will keep closely in touch with his fellow Ministers in the other European countries and any other country with which we may negotiate for extradition rights, to try to see whether we can get some greater clarity on this issue. Far too many criminal acts which are completely anti-social, which may endanger life, sometimes are sheltered on the grounds of being political offences. I would hope that our reference to a political offence would be purely as set out in section 11, subsection (2), the question of being prosecuted on account of political opinion. I know we cannot go that far yet but I would hope that the Minister would use his best endeavours to have that point clarified as soon as possible.

We have had a constructive debate on this measure. Certain points have been raised which require clarification. We will go into these technical details to a greater extent on Committee stage.

On the question of political offence, raised by all three speakers, I feel that it is much better to leave this very sensitive matter open rather than seek at this stage when legislating for many years ahead to tie down or pin down an exact definition which may not have relevance to future circumstances and that on this occasion the phrase "political offence" itself, subject as it is to the ultimate interpretation here, in our circumstances, by the High Court, is the best way to meet it and, indeed, this was the view also of the other countries which subscribed to the European Convention. It is significant that they also decided unanimously not to come down on the side of a specific detailed definition and left the definition in Article 3 as an open one, as we have left it in this Bill.

I should point out, in case there is any wrong impression, that there is a concurrent jurisdiction residing in the High Court as well as in the Minister for Justice to decide whether an offence is an excepted offence, that is, an offence of a political, military or revenue character and the procedure in this respect is fairly well tied in in the Bill for the benefit of the person who may be arrested. An arrested person here must be brought before a district court. Unless he agrees he must be held here for 15 days. In that period of 15 days——

Why was it altered from eight to 15?

Both ourselves and the British thought that eight or any similar period might in certain circumstances be prejudicial to the person committing the offence and we decided to give greater latitude to ensure that the principle of personal freedom was completely there.

The last Bill was reducing it from 15 down and now it is back to 15.

We feel that it is more desirable, having regard to personal freedom. Within this 15 day period, the person arrested has two courses of action open to him. Under the Part II procedure, he can raise in the district court, where he must be brought forthwith, the question of his offence being an excepted offence. He can then apply either to the Minister for Justice for a decision or to the High Court. He may go either way. If he does go to the High Court, the matter will be decided there in accordance with the circumstances of the time and merits of his case and the interpretation by the Court as to whether it is a political, military or revenue offence. If he has elected to go to the Minister for Justice first, the Minister may make his decision for or against the person arrested. If it is made by him against the person arrested, the person arrested has still got the ultimate right of habeas corpus which is enshrined in Article 40 of our Constitution, the right to apply against the Minister's decision to the High Court to have himself released on the basis that his offence is an excepted offence, that is, a political, military or revenue offence.

I think in that procedure we have outlined a series of safeguards with the ultimate absolute safeguard of the habeas corpus right under Article 40 for the person arrested to go to the authority of the Court for a decision as to whether or not his arrest is in accordance with the provisions of the Extradition Act. This gives full protection—a matter which concerned Deputy Dunne in particular—to the person arrested in these circumstances.

Deputy O'Higgins raised a point in regard to the difference between Parts II and III and as to whether they were tied in together. There is this distinction, that extradition in the technical sense relates only to Part II. It is only in relation to Part II that we shall have an extradition arrangement which can be made with the countries which have subscribed to the European Convention or can be made with other countries as well. Our arrangement with Great Britain is not extradition in the technical sense but we shall have a mutual enforcement of warrants in each of the two countries. We feel that is a more practical way of dealing with it having regard to the close relationship between the two islands.

The point is made also that I referred in the text to purely military offences. The reason for that is that we wanted to make it quite plain that the military offences excepted from this Bill are not offences which are military and civil; in other words the only excepted offence is an offence which is a military offence but not an offence against the civil code. Desertion is the obvious example. That is a purely military offence whereas the assaulting of an officer by a soldier or of any soldier by any other soldier is an offence against the civil code and will not be excepted.

Deputy O'Higgins is right in his interpretation of section 22 in regard to the introduction of the prima facie principle. That is necessary in any extradition arrangement. It was not there under the Bill as it stood. It is there to enable us to introduce a prima facie or any other reservation in regard to proof supporting a warrant in any arrangement we may make on an extradition basis with any other country. Therefore, it is open to us to ask in any extradition arrangement we may have with any country other than Britain that some evidence be produced along with the actual warrant before we allow extradition.

Deputy O'Higgins queried the raising of the period from three months to six months under section 43. This again was a matter which arose in discussions with the British. We felt the three months would be related to more trivial offences and that it might be fairer to the person arrested to make it six months. That is in the British legislation as well. Deputy O'Higgins raised one point about which I think he is mistaken, that is the question of retrospection under section 3(2) which reads:

This Act applies, except where otherwise provided, in relation to an offence whether committed or alleged to have been committed before or after the passing of this Act.

So the Bill is retrospective.

It was in relation to Part III I raised it. It was set out in Part III of the original Bill.

It applies to Parts II and III.

There is a view put forward that in certain circumstances it might be fairer not to have it retrospective.

That is a view, but if we do not make it retrospective we could have a fantastic incursion of criminals into this country between now and the passing of the Bill.

I did not pursue this with the Minister because I understood him to agree with me when I mentioned this matter. I am not pressing this but representations were made to me that it should be retrospective only to, say, the introduction of either this Bill or the previous Bill. The Minister might consider that point.

I shall consider that but it is important to have a retrospective element in the Bill. Otherwise criminals who have made a haven for themselves here in Ireland over the past few months or who may do so between now and the passing of the Bill would be exempted. However, I shall consider what Deputy O'Higgins has said as to the degree of retrospection.

I do not think any other matter has been raised. The main theme, as I stated initially, was the theme in regard to political offences and that is a highly delicate and highly sensitive subject. It is much better to leave an open definition and, having provided the full safeguards of the courts, to leave it to their discretion and good sense in the circumstances at the time to interpret whether or not an offence is political. The Bill, particularly in relation to Part III, having regard to our proximity to Northern Ireland and Great Britain, is an urgent one, in that we cannot continue to be, as we have been since the Quinn case last July, a haven for criminals who seek to avoid apprehension in Britain by coming here. Obviously that situation could not continue between our two countries. The British Government have brought their measure to the Second Stage in the House of Commons, having passed the House of Lords, and it is important that we move at the same time in order that we may have a satisfactory mutual arrangement in regard to enforcing warrants.

Apart from that aspect, the Bill itself is a comprehensive measure which brings up-to-date rather varied and detailed extradition legislation in many statutes over the last century. Therefore, when this Bill is enacted it will be a basic comprehensive measure which will be the root of all our extradition measures not alone in regard to Britain and Northern Ireland and the countries subscribing to the European Convention but in regard to whatever other countries with which we wish to make extradition arrangements, eventuating, I suppose, in the long run in complete extradition arrangements with every civilised country. This is the basic enactment in that respect. It is an important enactment, therefore, and I feel certain the House will give its approval to it.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Thursday, 3rd June, 1965.
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