Local Elections Regulations, 1965.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Blaney)

I move:

That Dáil Éireann approves of the following regulations in draft:

Local Elections Regulations, 1965,

a copy of which was laid in draft before Dáil Éireann on the 25th day of February, 1965.

These draft regulations are laid before the Dáil in accordance with subsection (5) of section 82 of the Electoral Act, 1963, which provides that when regulations under that section are proposed to be made, a draft thereof shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas and the regulations shall not be made until a resolution approving of the draft has been passed by each House.

A full explanatory memorandum on the draft regulations has been circulated to Deputies and I do not propose to detain the House by detailing the proposals. Stated concisely, my intention is to bring up to date the many statutory provisions governing the conduct of local elections which are contained in a considerable number of Acts and Orders and to re-state the provisions in this one instrument. In the process of consolidation I have assimilated, as far as practicable, the procedures relating to local elections with those which govern elections to Dáil Éireann. The modernisation and rationalisation of the Dáil electoral code which followed the deliberations and reports of the Joint Committee on the Electoral Law are thus being applied to the law on local elections.

This will result in a number of striking changes in procedure. As in the case of Dáil elections, candidates will be entitled to have their political affiliations inserted on nomination forms and ballot papers. Candidates will be required to lodge deposits with their nominations. Local authorities will be empowered to issue polling cards. Members of the Defence Forces and of the Gardaí will vote by post for the first time at a local election. Tendered ballot papers will be abolished. Returning officers will be empowered to accept, as valid, ballot papers marked with an X or other similar sign or with the words "one", "two", "three", instead of the figures 1, 2, 3, and so on. These and other changes in the local elections law are explained in the memorandum which I have circulated. In preparing the draft regulations I have endeavoured to simplify procedures and to reduce formality to the minimum compatible with the efficient running of the elections in consonance with established principles as to the preservation of secrecy.

As a measure of consolidation and for the sake of convenience, provisions which I am empowered to make by regulations under sections 83 and 86 of the Electoral Act, 1963, have been incorporated in the present draft, although the prior approval of the Dáil and Seanad is not required to regulations made under these sections. The provisions concerned relate to the issue of polling cards at local elections and the manner in which the costs of local elections are to be paid by local authorities.

The regulations effect a considerable amount of consolidation. With Part VI of the Electoral Act, 1963, they will provide in an easily accessible form all the statutory procedures governing the holding and conduct of local elections. I commend them to the House.

Mr. Sweetman

In the absence of Deputy Clinton, a member of whose family has had an unfortunate accident, might I say a few words on these regulations? I want to confine myself entirely to two points in the regulations themselves. We are all agreed that it is desirable that the regulations for local elections should as far as possible run side by side with Dáil procedure, but at the same time it is appropriate for us to consider on these regulations, what defects there are in the local, and therefore in the Dáil procedure. Every one of us in every constituency has had, since the last general election, without distinction of politics, a most uneasy feeling about the manner in which the Electoral Act, 1963 gave unlimited electoral power to people who had been certified as permanently incapacitated because of a mental illness. The manner in which that Act gave, in common parlance, the vote to those who are permanently committed to a mental hospital because they are not capable of managing their own affairs is something that I do not think this House realised when that Act was going through.

Every one of us has the utmost sympathy with any person who unfortunately is so afflicted but it is not right that a person who is so afflicted, and who is certified as being unable to carry on his or her own affairs, should at the same time be permitted to take part in the nation's affairs. People on every side of this House, regardless of Party politics, felt when they found the Act was operating as it did in the last general election, that it was a mistake. One way of dealing with the matter would be to provide by legislation that a person should not be registered in a mental hospital at all. The effect of that would be that he would be deemed to be normally resident at his own home and then, if he were perfectly fit to come out of the mental hospital to go to his own home to vote, he would be able to do so. He would not be deprived of his electoral rights in that way unless the doctor in charge of the mental hospital was not satisfied that he was fit to be allowed out.

I understand that in certain areas in connection with the local elections the inmates of the mental hospital would virtually have an overwhelming influence in the election of urban councillors. The position in Carlow, which has a joint mental hospital with Kildare, would be considerably affected. I understand the position in Ennis would be likewise affected. I am sure the Minister will be quick to correct me——

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

Tá sin mícheart. Tá sé taobh amuigh de theora an bhaile. The Deputy is not correct in regard to Ennis. It is in the rural area.

Mr. Sweetman

According to my information, there would be a sufficient number of votes in the mental hospital to elect in the Ennis area—perhaps the person speaking to me meant the Ennis electoral area for the county council—more than one councillor.

Seán Ó Ceallaigh

That could be.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister will be quick enough to correct me if this is not correct but I am told that in Letterkenny the position would be that the inmates of the mental hospital would be able to influence the result in a illogical manner, if they all went on one side. I am not suggesting that they would, but it is wrong that they should be in that position. If a person is normally fit to be taken out by his relatives, then he is fit to vote, but if a person is not fit to be let out, if he is not fit to do his own business, he should not be treated as fit to do the nation's business.

The other matter that arises in elections also, a procedural matter, is the hardship that is involved for commercial travellers. Many of them have never been able to vote because their vote may be in Dublin, for example, and in mid-week they are regularly away at the far ends of the country, Donegal, Galway, Cork and Kerry in connection with their business and they are not able to get back for polling day. That seems an unfair penalty on that section of the community and it is one that should be remedied. I want to advise the Minister that we in Fine Gael have decided to introduce at an early opportunity a Bill which will deal with the two-fold matters about which I have spoken in regard to our electoral law: the provision that there cannot be a booth inside a mental hospital and also the provision by which, subject to suitable safeguards, persons whose calling, such as commercial travellers, prevents them from voting in person will be enabled to vote by post.

Mr. McAuliffe

On behalf of the Labour Party, I should like to welcome these regulations. There are a few items in which we are particularly interested and one of these is the manner in which the register is made out. The Minister should make some effort to give a direction to those responsible for this work so that it will be properly done. It is very hard, even for members of local authorities, at present to question the manner in which the register is produced because so many persons are involved. Firstly, you have the person actually responsible for taking down the names and, secondly, the person responsible in presiding over registration courts and, thirdly, the printers. As a result, we find from time to time that a considerable number of people who have lived in a locality for years are disfranchised on the day of an election. I do not say this is done purposely, but some provision should be made for greater consideration of this important matter.

I agree to some extent with the previous speaker regarding electors in mental hospitals. Those capable of voting should have the right to vote in their home district. If they are fit to vote on the morning of the election, there is nothing to prevent those concerned from going to their own locality and voting there.

Some of us believe that the time, as far as polling stations are concerned, on the day of an election is pretty long. I wonder, however, if it would be wise to extend the time to 10 p.m. Perhaps the Minister would look into that. I trust he will also give consideration to the other points I have raised about the registers and the mental hospital patients.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I agree with the remarks made about setting-up polling places in mental hospitals. That will lead to abuses and in more ways than one it is undesirable. It is undesirable that those unfortunate people who are mentally ill should be subjected to pressure from one Party or another to come and vote. It is more likely that sort of pressure will be exercised on the patients if polling places are established in the mental hospitals. These patients, as they have done in the past, could return to their homes to vote if they are well enough to vote and, if they are not well enough to be taken out to vote in their own home booth, they should be left quietly alone in the seclusion of the mental hospitals. The country at large was more or less shocked when it was learned that polling booths were being set up in mental hospitals. I think most people did not realise that the effect of the Act was to convey that right and establish that practice. I urge the Minister to consider the matter seriously in the immediate future and to discontinue the practice. It would be quite wrong also, I think, to have polling places in county homes, say, where there are old and feeble-minded people against whom undesirable practices could be indulged in.

Glancing through the regulations, I see that No. 37 provides for compartments being set up in polling places in which voters can mark their ballot papers screened from observation. That regulation has not been observed in the past in some constituencies I do not want to name. In one of the by-elections, I was in a number of polling places where the voters marked their ballot papers on school desks and it was quite easy for anybody in the polling station, who wanted to do so, to see how these people were voting. I want to make it clear that this came as a complete surprise to me because in my own constituency I had always found these cubicles or compartments were provided in which people could mark their ballot papers in secrecy. I ask the Minister to look into that and ensure that a strict direction is given to have these compartments provided in which people can mark ballot papers secretly and without the fear that other persons will be craning their necks to see whether they are putting "1" at the top, or in the middle, or at the bottom of the ballot paper.

In connection with the official mark on the ballot paper, it would be better if the mark were put on with indelible ink or a stamp that could be seen. At present, in every election there is considerable controversy as to whether there is an official mark on some papers or not. If the mark were put on with a rubber stamp and indelible ink, it would be much easier to see and there would be no doubt about it.

From time to time we have all experienced complaints as to the register not being accurate. There is nothing so infuriating to candidates, election workers and electors as to find on election day that some people who are entitled to vote are not on the register. People who are on the register and who should not be on it can be dealt with on election day and can be prevented from voting but a person whose name is not on the register has no redress whatever and is deprived of his right to vote. Again, I am not speaking of any particular county or constituency. It is common all over the country that there are many people left off and it also happens that people who have been on the register for years and who are in middle age or indeed, advanced in years find that they are suddenly left off. Those responsible for compiling the register should be penalised in some way if the register turns out to be inaccurate.

Deputy Sweetman has already dealt with the position of commercial travellers who are prevented from voting due to absence from home. The time has come when something should be done about that problem also. As he has stated, this Party propose to attempt to deal with it in a Bill which will be introduced.

Mr. James Tully

I agree entirely that the idea which was introduced, not by the Minister, as he explained in the House, but by a Committee of the House—at least the Minister said so—and which he adopted, of giving votes to mental patients was an idea which should not have been adopted. I have heard many people talking about the most recent Seanad election and claiming that they were all nearly driven mad. There is a difference between that case and the case of people who are definitely insane, people who could not make a will, people who, it is generally agreed, are not allowed to conduct their own business being allowed to elect public representatives either to the Dáil or to local authorities.

Deputy Ó Ceallaigh corrected Deputy Sweetman about the situation in Ennis. I do not know anything about that area but I do know areas where there are so many mental patients in hospitals that they represent a very high proportion of the voters if they are allowed to vote and, if they vote in a certain way, can influence the entire representation for the area. I think everybody will agree that that is wrong.

With regard to county homes, I could not agree at all with Deputy Fitzpatrick because I believe persons in county homes are in an entirely different category and should be allowed to vote and that it is right that there should be a booth set up in the county home for the purpose of facilitating those people.

The Minister will have to do something about the register. There is no point in just leaving it and saying that this has been going on and that everybody is affected by it. In the last couple of elections, so many people were left off through pure carelessness and for no other reason that there should be an attempt made to rectify the position.

The worst feature of all is that a different interpretation is given from booth to booth. I know of one booth where a man whose name is on the register would not be allowed to vote because somebody said the name on the register might have been his father's. Yet, in the next booth, somebody who was not on the register was allowed to vote in a different man's name because somebody said it was a printer's error. This sort of thing makes a joke of an election and should be dealt with.

With regard to the secrecy of the ballot, I entirely agree with Deputy Fitzpatrick that, in the last election particularly, the situation was that there was little secrecy in the ballot, that people going in to vote were in some cases put in a position that they had to vote in such a way that at least one or two persons in the booth could see what was happening. There are instances I know of where the presiding officer very obligingly took the ballot paper and, for one reason or another, marked it himself. I do not think that should be allowed but, apparently, it is the accepted thing with some presiding officers that they do that kind of thing.

With regard to the stamping of the ballot paper, it should be borne in mind that, whatever about tracing a person's vote, the booth out of which an unstamped ballot paper comes can be traced and it is entirely wrong for returning officers again and again to re-appoint presiding officers who did not stamp the ballot papers, or some of the ballot papers, in the preceding election.

If I read correctly the explanatory memorandum which the Minister issued, from now on at local elections, a person who fails to carry out a duty which he is given to do can be fined heavily. If a couple of persons who take on to do a job do not do it—in the case of people who take on to stamp ballot papers that is all they have to do—if they were fined £100, there would be fewer of them applying for jobs and the work would be carried out in a much better way.

There is another item, that is, the question of the stamp itself. A particular design of stamp which would cut out the piece of the ballot paper so that there would be no doubt at all that the paper was stamped would be ideal.

Mr. Corish

A punch.

Mr. James Tully

There are plenty of punches around at election time and another would not do any harm. That would be a better way than the present system. As to the system by which people are allowed to vote for somebody who is unable to vote, the interpretation given to the Act on that matter during the recent election was, again, very extraordinary. We find numerous people taking their own interpretation as to the way in which this particular function should be carried out. Before the next election takes place the Minister would be very well advised to get his returning officers into the Custom House or somewhere else and advise them as to how the functions should be carried out because the present system, apparently, is being abused. The county secretaries are the returning officers for local elections.

It cannot be repeated too often that it was not the system of proportional representation that caused all the mixup at the last election. Pure carelessness on the part of persons who should have been doing their job and who were paid for doing the job was the entire cause of the trouble. This applies also to the persons counting votes. When it came to counting votes, again, we saw some extraordinary things happening. How a vote can pass through five or six counts and be found to be all right and then found to be wrong on the seventh count is something which a lot of us cannot understand.

The whole system of elections must be tightened up. There has been developing particularly in the country areas, too free and easy an approach to voting and the conduct of election booths. The result is that some booths are found to have the door open and everybody who wants to rambling in and out, advising those inside and those outside what they should do. That system should be discontinued and the Minister can have it discontinued very easily. If he does, maybe there will not be a different result but at least most of us will be far more satisfied with the way the election is carried out.

Mr. Molloy

I intend to be brief and I do not wish to say anything further as regards the question of voters from mental hospitals, as was mentioned by the previous speakers in the Opposition benches, except that I wonder if they think Fianna Fail had more friends in the mental institutions than they had.

Mr. James Tully

Naturally.

Mr. Molloy

I wish to make strong representations on behalf of commercial travellers, who are not able to vote. There are a large number of commercial travellers living in my area, Galway, who came to me before the last election and since then asking me to raise this matter if I ever got the opportunity in order to try to ensure that they would be able to vote, even though they might be on business as far away as Donegal or Kerry. Seeing that we allow a postal vote to members of the Army and the Garda Siochana, there does not seem to be any reason why it should not be available to commercial travellers who cannot be at home on polling day.

I should like to refer also to a matter which I raised here not so long ago, that is, the question of the vote for those in religious orders. It is strange that when compiling the register great time is spent in ensuring that the names of the religious order people are on the register and then they are not allowed to vote because of their own religious order regulations. They should also be given the option of a postal vote. Even though some of them are confined to convents and such places, they are still well aware of the affairs of the country and they are as competent and as keen as anybody else to exercise the franchise. There are several religious institutions in my constituency where the nuns and brothers were very disappointed that they were not allowed to vote on polling day. If they were given the facility of the postal vote, it would meet the situation.

Another matter to which reference has been made by previous speakers is the stamping of the voting papers. The stamp which I have seen on papers has been very difficult to see. It is very difficult to determine whether the paper is stamped or not when it is not stamped with ink. It has been suggested that some form of punching or some legible stamp should be used and I would ask the Minister to consider changing the regulations to enable this to be done.

Reference was made to a large number of people being left off the register on this occasion. People in every constituency must have experienced gross negligence on somebody's part in this regard during the recent election. It has been my experience that when the provisional register is made available, the Garda Síochána make a spot-check down the register to see if anybody whose name is on it has died since the register was made up or if the name of anybody they know has been left off it, so that they can bring it to the notice of the proper authority. However, that is not a very accurate process and I suggest the Garda Síochána should be given instructions, when the provisional register is available, to undertake a house to house canvass within their own barrack area to make sure that nobody is left off the register who should be on it. I am not sure whether that is feasible but I offer the suggestion to the Minister.

There is one other point on which I should like to lay very strong emphasis. This may have been the cause of some of the recounts which occurred in many constituencies including my own, even though it did not go on for several days. We had three recounts in West Galway arising, I believe, from the fact that the good people—nearly every one of them as far as I know—who were counting the votes had been acting as presiding officers or as polling clerk on the previous day. As one of the Labour Deputies said, some of the people who went out canvassing or were out driving on polling day from nine in the morning until ten in the evening had a very tiring day. That is true, but it is much longer for anybody sitting in a polling booth waiting for people to come in to vote. They must have been very tired people at the end of the day and these are the same people who had to come in the following morning and count the votes. If the counting went on for as long in other places as it did in Galway, up to two or three in the morning, those counting the votes could be forgiven for making small mistakes. They should not be asked to work two days in succession as they did on this occasion.

Mr. Barrett

I should like to associate myself with the remarks made by Deputy Sweetman and other speakers relating to the giving of the vote to persons who are deemed to be incapable of managing their own affairs and who are, therefore, in a mental hospital. The reason I mention it is this: if the Minister intends to break Cork city, for local government purposes, into six different wards, in one of those wards the mental patients in the Cork Mental Hospital would be able to elect either one-third or one-fourth of the members elected for that ward, and that is not the kind of thing that we in Cork would welcome.

Reference has been made to irregularities by presiding officers. Returning officers should be informed by the Minister that any irregularity by a presiding officer will debar him from any future work in that capacity. I know of grave irregularities that occurred in Cork. I know of one case where the presiding officer had a large number of ballot papers marked before they were given to the voters. There has also been carelessness in the preparation of the register. Those who are charged with the preparation of the register should be more careful in regard to the type of staff they recruit for that job and any irregularities in the preparation of the register which are brought to the notice of the body entrusted with its compilation should be most rigorously investigated and those responsible for these irregularities should not be employed again on the compilation of the register.

Mr. P. Hogan

(South Tipperary): I wish to support previous speakers on the question of votes for mental hospital patients. In particular I think that mental hospital patients who have been detained by legislation, that is, certified, as distinct from voluntary patients, should not be entitled to a vote. An exception could possibly be made as regards voluntary patients in mental hospitals and private mental homes. Again as regards the county homes, the old practice was that people from the county homes could go out and vote in the local polling booth in the area in which they lived, where the county home was perhaps a few hundred yards away. Others who had come recently into the county home had to go back to their own polling area. That meant, in effect, that only ambulant people could vote.

In many county homes there are senile patients who are partly demented. While the putting up of a polling booth in county homes was meant to facilitate certain people, I think there has also been a certain amount of excess. I know of one instance in which patients were pulled out of bed, howling with pain, because of the efforts of enthusiastic workers or supporters; these patients had not been out of bed for months but, because the polling booth happened to be situated very conveniently downstairs, certain excess, as I describe it, occurred. In the ordinary course patients such as these should be left undisturbed, but the putting of polling booths in county homes encourages that kind of excessive activity on the part of political canvassers. Under the old system there had to be proof that the patients were ambulant. They were required to walk a couple of hundred yards to the polling booth. I think that was a more humane system.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 2 Jun 1965

Local Elections Regulations, 1965.

Mr. Barrett

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Jun 1965