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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jun 1965

Vol. 216 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 41—Transport and Power.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £5,006,400 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the office of the Minister for Transport and Power, including certain Services administered by that office and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.

In the Revised Estimates the net Estimate of £7,609,100 for the year 1965-66 is compared with a sum of £7,251,800 granted in 1964-65, including a Supplementary Estimate taken on 24th February, 1965 too late for inclusion in the printed Book of Estimates, and shows a net increase of £357,300.

The principal increases in 1965-66, after taking into consideration the effect of the Supplementary Estimate, are in the provisions for Post Office Services £40,950, Subhead B.2; Grants for Harbours £60,000 (E); Grant-in-Aid for Tourism under Tourist Traffic Acts £597,000 (Subheads F.1 and 2); Radio Equipment £282,490 (J); Expenses in connection with International Organisations £87,310 (M) and Rural Electrification £94,170 (O). Small increases in other Subheads amount to £21,585 bringing the total increases to £1,183,505.

The increase in the provision of post office services is required in order to cover the loss on the operation of the post office at Shannon Airport. The nature of the traffic at Shannon Airport is such that it is necessary to keep the post office there open all round-the-clock to suit the convenience of passengers. This necessitates the operation of the post office at a considerable loss. Consideration is at present being given to see whether the post office could be closed for certain hours a day without causing any inconvenience to passengers. The increase in the provision for radio equipment arises because payment has to be made in 1965-66 for equipment, which it was anticipated would be paid for in 1964-65. The increase in expenses for international organisations is due to our adherence to Eurocontrol to which I shall refer later. There is a corresponding increase in Appropriations-in-Aid for Eurocontrol of £90,000.

The principal decreases in 1965-66, after allowing for the Supplementary Estimate, are in the provisions for Salaries £29,995 (Subhead A); Córas Iompair Éireann Redundancy Compensation £250,000 (D.2); Grant-in-Aid for Development of Holiday Accommodation £165,000 (F.3); Constructional Works at Airports £100,000 (G.2); Grant-in-Aid to Shannon Free Airport Development Company Ltd., £70,000 (Subhead K.1 and 2); Recoupment to Aer Lingus of certain costs in connection with pilot training £7,490 (Q) bringing the total decreases to £622,485. To this must be added the increase of £203,720 in appropriations-in-aid which is equivalent to a decrease in the net grant and brings the total decrease to £826,205.

The salary provision is less this year as it is not necessary to make provision for arrears arising out of arbitration and conciliation awards. When pilot training in Ireland was inaugurated by Aer Lingus it was anticipated that extra expenses would arise as compared with training abroad. Accordingly, provision was made to recoup these extra costs to Aer Lingus. Experience has shown, however, that the anticipated extra costs have not arisen and no provision is being made this year except for a token sum. The increase in appropriations-in-aid is due to receipts from Eurocontrol for agency services for that Organisation, £90,000, to increase in profits on the catering service at Shannon Airport, £51,000 and to an increase in estimated receipts from the passenger service charges at airports, £45,000.

On the basis of actual increases and decreases as stated above, namely, £1,183,505 increase and £826,205 decrease, the net increase compared with the 1964-65 provision is £357,300 as shown in the revised Estimate.

Since the election of the new Government, the opportunity has been taken to discuss with each State company under my supervision the targets to be achieved under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. The major directives of the Government have been restated and modifications to meet new situations, changes in emphasis on particular problems emerging have been fully debated. Capital requirements have been examined with care and the productive effect of expenditure assessed.

These meetings are merely the first of regular discussions which will take place during the life of the present Dáil interspersed by regular discussions with the chairmen and managing directors of the companies.

The State companies are efficiently operated but inevitably there are some shortcomings. My Department continues to investigate all complaints on matters which appear of national concern and to have discussions on the causes for any repetitive complaints. My aim is to ensure maximum efficiency in every detail of administration.

I am glad to inform the House that every State company has examined and continues to examine every aspect of administration, financial control, management, operational efficiency, under every head, using the most modern methods. At the same time all companies provide advanced training in the latest techniques of management including, in many cases, the search for new ideas abroad. This is a never-ending process and the State companies concerned set a splendid example to private enterprise in their completely modern approach to management.

I have also emphasised the need to achieve the very best possible system of communications between the executive staff and the workers, to perfect as far as possible procedures for conciliation and grievances examination, to provide information to workers giving a general picture of each company's objectives and the necessity for high productivity.

The existing conciliation machinery in all the companies is elaborate. Changes may be needed in some cases, such as the ESB and these are being considered by the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Group union committees are an essential feature of negotiating machinery and these exist where required. The consolidation of the trade union movement—an objective of ICTU—is, of course, a far better solution of this problem.

I regret that there have been a number of unofficial strikes in the State companies and I join with the responsible leaders of the trade union movement in deploring them, particularly in essential services. The levels of remuneration and working conditions in these companies and conciliation procedures are sufficiently satisfactory for me to say that unofficial strikes should be non-existent in our essential services.

The total capital expenditure on Shannon Airport up to 31st March, 1965, has amounted to about £5.6 million. For the year ended 31st March, 1964, total revenue at the airport was £776,000 and expenditure was £755,000. The working of the airport including cost of air traffic control, communications and meteorological services showed an operating surplus of £21,000 per year. This figure, however, makes no allowance for depreciation and interest on capital expenditure which amounted to about £480,000. The overall deficit on the airport in 1963-64 was, therefore, about £459,000 or about £76,000 more than for 1962-63.

The total number of passengers at Shannon Airport in 1964 increased by 14 per cent to 380,000. This is the first time since 1960 that total traffic at the airport showed an increase over the preceding year. Terminal traffic has been increasing steadily for some years but the drop in transit traffic had, until last year, been such as to offset the increase in terminal traffic. In 1964, terminal traffic increased by 30 per cent and comfortably offset the 6 per cent drop in transit traffic. Freight traffic at the airport amounted to 16,000 metric tons, a drop of 8 per cent over the 1963 total. Terminal freight increased, however, by 31 per cent to 4,250 metric tons.

In addition to Aerlínte, scheduled passenger services were operated to Shannon by Pan American Airways, Trans-World Airlines, Air Canada, KLM, Seaboard World Airlines and Sabena. During the coming year, turn-around flights to the airport will be operated by Trans-World Airlines and Pan American Airways, in addition to through flights. Arrangements have been made by CIE for the provision of an express bus service between Shannon and Dublin and Shannon and Killarney in connection with these flights. The Shannon/ London route will also be operated during the coming year by British European Airways, in conjunction with Aer Lingus, thus doubling the total frequency, while Aer Lingus will operate new services on the Shannon/ Manchester and Shannon/Paris routes.

Another recent development at Shannon has been the commencement of operations by a new non-scheduled airline based at the airport. This new company is Shannon Air Limited and it undertakes passenger and cargo charter flights on a world-wide basis.

Construction of a new control building, designed to cope with the expected growth of traffic at the airport, has been completed and installation of the equipment for the building is in progress. It is expected that the new control building will come into operational use towards the end of the year. The new building will be more centrally situated in relation to the runways than the existing control tower and it has been so located and designed as to give the air traffic control officers a full view of the entire area of the new main runway on which the traffic is mainly concentrated. It will provide accommodation both for the air traffic control and radio services staffs, thus facilitating the efficient co-ordination of these services and ensuring the most economic utilisation of personnel. When the new control building becomes available for operational use, the existing control tower will be adapted to other uses.

The terminal building has recently been improved and it is in process of further alteration to provide improved passenger handling and catering facilities for the steadily increasing numbers of terminal passengers and visitors to the Airport. Improvements to the public catering area, including the provision of a modern grillette service, were completed in time to meet the requirements of the peak traffic period in the summer of 1964 and work is at present in progress on the reconstruction of the concourse in order to provide better accommodation and other facilities in that area. Extensions to the customs hall and the mechanical baggage conveying equipment, which are necessary to cope with the increased traffic at the airport, are also being carried out.

Air traffic control services to North Atlantic air traffic in the Shanwick area which extends approximately halfway across the North Atlantic from the domestic control areas of Ireland and Scotland have for some years been the joint responsibility of oceanic control centres at Prestwick in Scotland and Shannon, with communication centres at Birdlip in England and at Ballygirreen. The increased speed of jet aircraft and the continuing growth in volume of North Atlantic air traffic have so reduced the time available for co-ordination between the two centres that consolidation of control on one centre became essential.

The Governments of both countries have, therefore, agreed that control of all en route North Atlantic traffic within the Shanwick flight information region will be exercised by the Prestwick control centre, with Shannon Aeradio as the communication centre. The new arrangement will be phased into operation during the next year or so and will be the subject of a formal agreement to be concluded between the two Governments.

There will be a very substantial long-term saving under the arrangement both in capital expenditure and in annual running costs. Retention of the oceanic control centre at Shannon would have entailed capital expenditure of the order of £500,000 on computers. The saving in cost of air traffic control staff will not however result in redundancy as surplus staff can be absorbed. Shannon Aeradio will have an enhanced status as the sole communication centre for North Atlantic traffic on the eastern side of the ocean.

The International Airline Transport Association has congratulated the authorities in both countries for thus improving the efficiency and providing for more economical operation of air traffic control service on the North Atlantic.

The total capital expenditure on Dublin Airport up to 31st March, 1965, amounted to about £3.9 million. For the year ended 31st March, 1964, total revenue at the airport was £640,000 and expenditure was £474,000. The working of the airport, including costs of air traffic control, communications and meteorological services, therefore, showed an operating surplus of £166,000 in that year. This figure, however, makes no allowance for depreciation and interest on capital expenditure which amounted to about £309,000. The overall deficit on the airport in 1963-64 was, therefore, about £143,000 or about £40,000 less than for 1962-63.

All sectors of traffic at Dublin Airport continued to increase in 1964. Passenger traffic rose by 14 per cent to 1,263,000, while freight rose by 6 per cent to 25,300 metric tons. Services are operated to and from the airport by seven foreign operators: British European Airways, BKS Air Transport Ltd., British Midland Airways Ltd., KLM, Cambrian Airways, British United (CI) Airways and Iberia Airlines. A feature of activity at the airport recently has been the operation of flights in connection with the carriage of meat from Dublin to points on the Continent. These flights are mainly operated by British carriers but Aer Lingus and Shannon Air Limited also participate in the traffic. Car-ferry and horse-ferry services also continue to be operated at the airport with great success.

The continuing increase in the volume of both passenger and freight traffic at Dublin Airport has necessitated the preparation of a long-term development plan designed to cope with the estimated growth of traffic at the airport in the foreseeable future. Portion of this plan has already been implemented by the erection of two pier buildings. These buildings have been so designed and constructed as to provide the nucleus of a flexible system of passenger handling and accommodation facilities which can readily and economically be extended as and when the growth of traffic warrants.

Work is also in progress on the construction of two new taxiways and an extension to the apron. The additional taxiways are necessary to provide increased manoeuvring facilities for aircraft. Extension of the apron is necessary in connection with the use of Pier Building No. 2 for passenger handling.

The buildings and facilities at Dublin Airport, as originally planned and provided, have proved adequate to cope with the requirements of rapidly expanding traffic for a period of over 25 years which is no mean record. It has, of course, been necessary from time to time to provide additional building and facilities but it has not been found necessary to make any radical structural alterations in the original buildings which are still in use. Future buildings at the airport will, so far as practicable, be integrated into the existing complex of buildings.

Future developments at the airport, under the long-term plan, will be designed and phased to meet the requirements of increased traffic as they arise. All buildings have been designed to permit of their further extension and space has been reserved for additional buildings and facilities which may be required. In general, the long-term plan provides for the maximum degree of flexibility and co-ordination in the development of the airport and for the orderly integration of new buildings and facilities into existing ones.

The total capital expenditure on Cork Airport up to 31st March, 1965, amounted to about £1.4 million. For the year ended 31st March, 1964, total revenue at the airport was £66,000 and expenditure was £129,000, including the cost of air traffic control, communications and meteorological services. The working of the airport therefore showed an operating deficit of £63,000 in that year. This figure makes no allowance for depreciation and interest on capital expenditure which amounted to about £115,000. The overall deficit on the airport in 1963-64 was therefore about £178,000 or £9,000 less than for 1962-63.

Traffic at Cork Airport also continued to increase. The number of passengers rose in 1964 by 18 per cent to 113,000 while freight increased by 26 per cent to 1,300 metric tons. Services are operated to Cork by Aer Lingus, British United (CI) Airways, British Midland Airways and Cambrian Airways Ltd. The car-ferry service between Cork and Bristol operated very successfully during 1964 at an increased frequency.

Cork Airport has now been in use for 3½ years and the growth of traffic has far exceeded all expectations. The airport was specially designed to permit of extensions and it is my intention that the facilities will keep pace with the traffic requirements.

Although there is a decrease of £100,000 in the Estimates provision for Constructional Works at Airports, it is anticipated that actual expenditure this year will exceed that for 1964-65 by £50,000 as the payments made that year under this subhead amounted to £450,000, out of £600,000 contained in the Estimate.

The turnover of the Sales and Catering Service at Shannon Airport for the year ended 31st January, 1965, amounted to approximately £1,645,000, an increase of 20 per cent over the figure for the previous year and the highest cash figure yet recorded. This satisfactory outcome is due in part to the 14 per cent increase in Shannon passenger traffic in 1964 but also reflects unremitting effort by the Sales and Catering Service to maintain and outstrip its previous performance.

The Sales and Catering Service has in the past encountered setbacks caused by changes in the pattern and character of air traffic and the restrictions on duty-free imports by Americans returning from visits abroad. The Sales and Catering Service has coped with these challenges in the past with zeal and ingenuity and I am sure will continue to do so in the future should this be necessary. These difficulties still exist and indeed tend to increase.

With effect from 1st January, 1965, Ireland became a member of the Eurocontrol Organisation which was established under a Convention of December, 1960, and which came into operation on 1st March, 1963. The power to give effect to the Convention in this country is contained in the Air Navigation (Eurocontrol) Act, 1963.

The purpose of the Organisation is to provide a unified air traffic control system for general air traffic in the upper airspace, i.e., above 20,000 to 25,000, over the territories of the seven member states — Belgium, France, Germany, Great Britain, Ireland, Luxembourg and the Netherlands. Ireland's accession to Eurocontrol is an important event because it will increase the effectiveness of Eurocontrol by extending its area of control to the Irish upper airspace through which the main streams of air traffic between the old and the new worlds pass. This country can hope by its membership of the Organisation to benefit by the consolidation of its position in relation to international aviation and by sharing with other member states the cost of providing expensive technical equipment, including computers, which this country itself would, otherwise, have to purchase.

The need for the establishment of a unified air traffic control system on an international basis arises from the fact that air traffic control systems organised on a national basis are handicapped by the speed with which jet traffic in the upper airspace passes from one air traffic control centre to another and from one national boundary to another.

In accordance with the Convention Ireland is required to contribute its proportional share of the investment costs defrayed by the Organisation prior to 1st January, 1965. As from that date Ireland is also required to contribute its proportional share of the annual operating and investment expenses of the Organisation. While Ireland's total contribution to the operating and investment expenses in the year ended 31st March, 1965, is not yet known it is expected to be appreciably less than one per cent of the total for the Organisation's 1965 operating and investment budget. It is estimated that the figure of £80,000 provided in the Estimates should be sufficient to meet the contribution, which is expected to be more than offset by reimbursements estimated at £90,000 due to be paid by Eurocontrol before 31st March, 1966, in respect of the cost to this country of providing in the year 1965 air traffic control personnel and facilities to Eurocontrol on an agency basis.

A sum of £430,000 is being provided for the Shannon Development Company by way of grant-in-aid in 1965-66, compared with £480,000 issued to the company in 1964-65, to meet the running expenses of the company and to provide financial assistance for the setting up of industrial, commercial and trading enterprises at the airport. The reduction in the provision for 1965-66 is due to an anticipated increase in receipts from the company's revenue earning activities which go to offset the amount of grant-in-aid required. Up to 31st March, 1965, a total of £1,605,500 had been paid to the company by way of grant-in-aid voted annually by the Oireachtas.

The Shannon Free Airport Development Co. Ltd. (Amendment) Act 1963 provides for the payment to the company of housing grants and subsidies. The grant is a single payment equivalent to the grant that would be paid by the Department of Local Government if a house were erected by private enterprise. £48,000 was paid to the Shannon Company in 1964-65 in respect of houses provided by them. The number of houses expected to be erected in 1965-66 is less, as the original backlog has been overtaken and the amount under this subhead is £31,500.

In addition to the grant for the building of the houses, an annual subsidy is also payable in respect of the amount by which the rent payable falls below the economic rent. This is similar to the subsidies from local rates which local authorities use to keep rents to a level that tenants can reasonably afford. Grants under this head in 1964-65 amounted to £31,000. The amount for 1965-66 is £44,500, as the number of houses built and occupied has increased.

A sum of £1,150,000 is being provided in the Capital Budget for 1965-66 to meet share capital and repayable advances compared with £1,025,000 issued to the company in 1964-65. The share capital is used mainly for the construction of factory premises and warehouses and the repayable advances are in respect of the provision of dwellings and community services for workers employed in the Industrial Estate. Up to the 31st March, 1965, the total amount paid to the company by way of share capital and repayable advances was £5,301,000.

I do not propose to dwell on the activities of the Shannon Development Company because I propose to give the House a comprehensive review of the affairs of the company in connection with the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1965, which has recently been introduced.

I should take the opportunity of commending the initial activities of the Shannonside and Ivernia Regional Tourist Companies and their associated development associations for the programme they are now formulating. The people in the western and south-western areas can by their own investment do as much to make Shannon the natural centre for tourists coming to the region as the air companies or the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. A campaign run locally to bring people of Irish origin to see the homeland is an example of promotional work that could be profitable. The recent increase of traffic at Shannon by the foreign air companies indicates I hope that more promotional advertising can be expected in the future.

The issued share capital of Aer Rianta at 31st March, 1965, was £12,950,047, of which £5,692,994 was invested in Aer Lingus and £6,921,477 in Aerlínte, the balance being retained by Aer Rianta for investment in Irish and Intercontinental Hotels and for its own capital purposes. The final accounts of Aer Lingus and Aerlínte for 1964-65 are not yet available but I understand from the companies that once again they have had a very successful year's operations and that taking the two companies together the operating profit for the year will be of the order of £1,250,000, approximately the same as in the preceding year.

The four BAC III aircraft purchased by Aer Lingus at a cost of £5 million approximately will be in service this summer on the company's continental routes. The company propose to dispose of their Friendship aircraft and to operate all their cross-Channel passenger services with Viscount aircraft. The extra Viscounts will be purchased from KLM at a favourable price and this addition to the fleet should effect a considerable improvement in profitability.

During 1964, Aer Lingus carried almost 990,000 passengers, an increase of about 13 per cent over the previous year. Freight carried by the company during the year amounted to almost 15,500 metric tons, an increase of about seven per cent. The company maintained its services on all routes during the year and, in order to cater for increased traffic on cross-Channel and continental routes in the summer season of 1964, had to charter aircraft from BOAC, British Midland Airways and Skyways Ltd. The three Carvair aircraft operated by the company on its car-ferry services have been adapted for the carriage of horses and the first horses were flown by the company from Dublin in September, 1964. The adapted aircraft can carry up to eight horses in specially arranged horse-boxes and a sloping ramp enables the horses to walk on and off the aircraft. This type of traffic was previously handled solely by British operators, principally BKS Air Transport Ltd. and British United Air Ferries. The Aer Lingus Carvairs are also used for the operation of all-cargo services, particularly during the winter period when car ferry services do not operate. The company continues to operate with one of the highest load factors of all European air carriers.

Aerlínte have recently taken delivery of a second Boeing 320 and the rapid traffic development has necessitated the placing of an order for a third Boeing 320 for delivery in 1966. This will bring the total cost of the transatlantic aircraft to £10 million in the years 1964 to 1966 of which the company will provide a considerable proportion from its own sources, the balance being provided through short-term borrowing. I should add that any surplus earned by Aerlínte is urgently needed for the financing of capital requirements or the extinction of earlier accrued development expenses.

In the past two years there has been an increase of 23 per cent in traffic on the companies' cross-Channel and European network while traffic on the transatlantic route has grown by a remarkable 65 per cent. The company had the highest load factor of all operators on the North Atlantic route. The question of introducing services to Canada is under consideration at present. A record level of publicity and sales activity has been initiated in the highly competitive tourist markets of Britain, Europe and North America in an effort to increase tourist traffic from these areas. It is expected that in 1965-66 the air companies' promotional expenditure abroad will amount to £2¼ million including the cost of sales, offices and staff.

I should clarify the position with regard to the air companies' capital structure. At 31st March, 1965 the air companies' share and loan capital amounted to about £16 millions of which about £3 millions was loan capital. As I have stated on other occasions, Aer Lingus was promoted on so rapid a basis that surpluses earned on the profitable routes were insufficient to finance the capital required for the development of more marginal services. Major capital commitments entered into during the past three years involve outlay of about £18 millions of which £16 millions will come from the air companies' own resources and from commercial borrowings. The remaining £2 millions has been provided from the Exchequer by way of share capital. The very high proportion of the capital requirements which is being met from sources other than the Exchequer indicates that the companies are progressing towards a stage in which their earnings will be sufficient to remunerate the capital invested in them. The companies have been advised to plan ahead on a progressive but economic basis, to develop further westbound traffic from Europe and to keep in touch with me and with Bord Fáilte on their particular requirements in accommodation for package charter tours.

There is ample competition for Aer Lingus and Aerlínte and new routes are opened up by foreign airlines with my consent but with the object of ensuring that traffic breeds traffic and not to the detriment of the national airline. Aer Lingus have recently installed an electronic reservations system at Dublin Airport which will enable the company to process expeditiously the thousands of bookings, inquiries and alterations received every day—no small feat considering that over one million passengers are carried every year. The system which is one of the most up-to-date in the world is linked directly with key booking centres on the company's network in Britain and indirectly with various booking offices in Europe, North America and Australia.

Shipping freight rates in 1964 continued to improve but at a much slower rate than in the previous year. In 1963 the average index figure for the year (base 1960=100) was 109 giving an increase of 20 points over the 1962 average. The average figure for 1964 was 112, an increase of three points only over the 1963 average. The improvement has been maintained in the current year the average figure being 120 against 114 in the corresponding period last year.

During 1964 there was a steady decline in laid-up dry cargo tonnage. From a peak of 846,000 tons in January, 1964, it fell to 480,000 tons in December, 1964. Since then there has been a further decline, the laid-up tonnage at the 1st May, 1965, being 303,000.

The fact that dry cargo freight rates remained relatively steady throughout the year 1964, which was unaffected by world crisis or states of emergency and the falling off in laid-up tonnage suggests that a more stable equilibrium between supply and demand is now in sight. Even with an improvement in freight rates, however, it seems unlikely that any but the most modern tramping vessels will be able to operate at a profit.

A feature of the shipping industry in recent years has been the rapid increase in the size of new vessels, particularly tankers. An order for a 160,000 ton tanker has recently been placed—in Belfast I am pleased to note—and tankers of 200,000 tons are mooted. Tankers of 50,000 tons and upwards are becoming commonplace. The outstanding economy of operation of these vessels tends to keep freight rates very low and the situation is of course much aggravated by the substantial overall surplus of tanker tonnage much of it consisting of older and smaller vessels.

In the case of dry cargo ships the size of the bulk carrier vessels suitable for ore, coal, grain and similar cargo has grown rapidly also but not to the same degree as tankers. There are now about 320 bulk carriers on order in the world's shipyards of an average tonnage of 32,500 deadweight.

Tanker freights continue to be most depressed. The world surplus of tanker tonnage is aggravated by large scale new buildings which lead to even more severe competition.

The accounts of Irish Shipping Ltd. for 1964-65 which have recently been presented to the House show that the results for the year although not yet entirely satisfactory are appreciably better than in the previous year. It is particularly gratifying to report that the operating surplus of £521,732 is up by £68,462 on last year and is the highest which has been recorded for eight years. After providing £838,177 for depreciation of the fleet and allowing for investment income, bank interest, directors' and auditors' fees the net commercial loss amounted to £274,842 as compared with a commercial loss of £556,721 in the previous year. The loss is almost entirely due to tanker operations. The dry cargo fleet as a whole did not fall far short of earning full depreciation the losses on the older and less economic vessels being offset by profits on the larger and more modern vessels acquired in recent years.

Irish Shipping Ltd. was established to ensure an adequate fleet for the carriage of our essential needs in emergency conditions. The continuance and expansion of the fleet after the war was also based on strategic considerations. Accordingly, when considering the financial results of the operations of Irish Shipping Ltd. it should be remembered that they are not comparable with those of ordinary commercial concerns. If the company had been guided by purely commercial considerations only over the last ten years its fleet would be of a very different composition and possibly much smaller than it is. As long however as the company is expected to fulfil a strategic role it cannot be expected that its earnings will be high or bear comparison with purely commercial firms either here or abroad.

Following a radical reappraisal of the company's operation the Board of Irish Shipping decided that a number of the older and uneconomic units of the fleet should be replaced by a bulk carrier of 30,000 tons deadweight. This vessel will be able to use the Port of Dublin as current dredging will enable the necessary depth to be provided within about a year. The Government have approved of this decision and the company are taking steps to place an order for the vessel.

With Government approval, Irish Shipping Ltd. invested £150,000 in Palgrave Murphy Ltd. in 1964. The investment is made up of £90,000 in ordinary share capital and £60,000 in 6½ per cent debentures, and has shown satisfactory returns. With the growth in continental trade the integration and rationalisation of common services should lead to improved profitability.

State companies have always been encouraged to avail of the services of management consultants and other technical advisers with a view to increased productivity and efficiency. Irish Shipping Ltd. have engaged management consultants to review various aspects of their operations and advise on methods to effect greater efficiency.

A work-study expert has been to sea on one of the company's ships to study and report on solutions of problems of ship operations. This active approach by management and staff and the forward looking mentality of the board augurs well for the future of the company.

The acquisition by the Government of the British and Irish Steam Packet Co. Ltd. is very recent and all aspects of the matter were dealt with very fully during the passage of the Act. The board are making a complete and searching analysis of the immensely complex operation involved in carrying passengers, cars, cargo and cattle in the cross-Channel trade on the lines of the directives which I gave them and which are set out in my Second Stage speech on the B & I Bill. Some time must elapse before final decisions are reached or results show but I know that the new board have got off to a good start. They are implementing a re-organisation of administrative and clerical procedure drawn up by consultants with the co-operation of the trade union concerned. They are also re-organising the management structure and are carrying out an intensive survey of the scope for development of unit load and container traffic.

The provision of £250,000 which shows an increase of £250,000 on 1963-64 for grants for harbour improvement works covers works in progress or works expected to commence shortly. The increase arises because it is expected that more progress will be made this year on works which have commenced recently. The principal current improvement schemes are those for Galway, Wicklow, and Arklow for which grants totalling nearly £500,000 have been approved. Grants of £15,000 and £17,000 have been approved for Sligo and Ballina respectively. Progress on works at Drogheda, for which a grant of £175,000 was approved, has been suspended pending the carrying out of necessary technical investigations. Work on the projects at Galway and Wicklow is already well advanced.

The Second Programme for Economic Expansion assumes that normally all harbours should be operated as commercial undertakings and that maintenance charges and improvements required by expanding trade should be financed on a commercial basis. I must stress again that State assistance for harbour works should be regarded as an exceptional measure and reserved for essential and productive schemes, the full cost of which cannot be met locally or where the establishment or expansion of a particular major industry requires improved harbour facilities. It is desirable that any State assistance and, indeed, any investment at such harbours should be related to the specific and identifiable requirements of new trade or industrial development and should not be undertaken merely by way of providing general facilities in the hope of attracting new and unspecified business. It is equally desirable that the expected return on the investment be measured as accurately as possible and that an appropriate local contribution should be a condition of any State assistance.

The working group, which I set up to investigate the possibility of accelerating the movement of cargo through sea and airports, has completed its inquiries and has just reported to me.

It is vitally necessary to continue to emphasise the constant need for increased productivity in the handling of goods at ports. It is satisfactory to note that appreciable progress has been achieved at several ports. At some other harbours there were most undesirable restrictions and no solution had been found. It is to be hoped that with a more enlightened climate of public opinion the ports which have hitherto been lagging will concentrate on raising their productivity and that all ports will endeavour to keep abreast of the latest developments in this field.

The Irish Port Authorities Association could and were helping to develop the most modern ideas about port productivity and this work was an essential contribution to national economic progress. The larger harbours can make a special contribution in that they have the expertise and are often in a position to give sound advice to the smaller harbours. The smaller harbours also have their part to play.

I now come to energy. The country's total primary energy requirements in 1964 are estimated at 6.7 million tons coal equivalent or about five per cent higher than in the previous year. The increased demand for energy reflects the growing industrial activity in the country, the increased use of mechanisation in farming operations and the improving living standards of our people. Less than two-fifths of our total primary energy requirements in 1964 were supplied from native sources, i.e. turf, hydro power and native coal.

The accounts for the Electricity Supply Board for the year ended 31st March, 1965, are not yet available. Hydro conditions were a little better than average during the year but generally costs have been moving against the board as indicated in their annual report for 1963-64. It is expected that the results for 1964-65 will show a small debit balance.

The growth in demand for electricity is an accepted indicator of the progress in the economic development of a country and in the improvement in the living standards of its people. The demand of nine per cent to 1970 as ensome 12 per cent higher than in the previous year and compares with an estimated average annual increase in demand of nine per cent to 1970 as envisaged in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and which is about two per cent above the European average. The peak demand in 1964-65 was 755 megawatts compared with 674 megawatts in the previous year and was reached during a cold spell early in March this year.

The consumption of electricity in the urban areas where a comparison can be made without the complication of a rapidly growing rural network amounted to 1,476 million units in 1960-61 and 1,853 million units in 1964-65, an increase of 26 per cent. The increase in industrial power consumption over the same period was 40 per cent.

During the year 160 megawatts have been added to generating capacity and the total is now 1,009.5 MW, but this includes 90 megawatts of old plant at Pigeon House which is available for stand-by purposes and the four 5-meg-watt hand-won turf stations. The approved programme of plant construction up to 1970 includes 120 megawatts at Ringsend, 120 megawatts at Great Island, Wexford, and 120 megawatts at Tarbert, County Kerry, all based on oil, and 40 megawatts at Lanesboro based on milled peat. These will be followed by a 120 megawatt oil station at Ringsend.

As Deputies are aware, it has been decided, following discussions which I had earlier this year with the Northern Minister of Commerce, to undertake a joint investigation, under the chairmanship of Sir Josiah Eccles, into the technical and economic possibilities of cross-Border co-operation in the field of electricity. It is hoped that this investigation will be completed early in 1966.

The initial development of all rural areas under the Rural Electrification Scheme has been completed and the ESB are proceeding with the re-canvass of all areas under the post-development scheme. The total number of rural premises connected at 31st March, 1965, is 310,000 or about 82 per cent of the total. When the post-development scheme is completed in 1968 some 340,000 premises or about 90 per cent of the total will have been connected.

Apart from the rapid increase in the number of rural connections in recent years, the consumption of electricity, in rural areas per consumer, has increased by 30 per cent approximately since 1960-61. The use of electricity for farm production is illustrated by the following percentage increases in the numbers of electrically operated equipment since 1959.

Percentage Increase.

Infra-red lamps

17

Water pumps

42

Milking machines

98

“Burco” boilers

77

Grain grinders

92

Further evidence of the improvement in social conditions may be given by recording the percentage of farm residences using the following domestic equipment:—

Percentage

Electric

irons

79

,,

washing machines

19

,,

kettles

47

,,

cookers

20

,,

vacuum cleaners

10

I have in every year encouraged the Board to expand and improve their sales organisation in rural areas in order to increase still further the use of power-driven farm equipment and domestic appliances. I understand that the sales organisation is again being expanded and re-organised with the object of increasing the use of these equipments, so essential to modern farm production and to the development of up-to-date social amenities in farmhouses.

The provision of approximately £525,000 in this estimate for rural electrification is in respect of the repayment to the Central Fund of advances made out of it to the ESB in respect of the rural subsidy. The advances in each calendar year are being repaid by a 25 year annuity commencing in the following financial year. The annual charge to this subhead of the Vote will increase while subsidy continues to be advanced from the Central Fund.

I shall deal more fully with rural electrification when the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1965 is taken in the House. This Bill provides for the raising of the limit of capital expenditure by the board on rural electrification by a further £5 million, bringing the total to £42 million, and for the continuation of subsidy. The Bill also provides for an increase in the capital expenditure which the board are authorised to incur for general purposes, that is to say, for all purposes except rural electrification.

The cost of electric power furnished by the ESB for all purposes is reasonable by any European comparison. The average cost of electricity for domestic consumption in urban areas in 1946-47 was 1.84d per unit. Today it is 1.76d per unit. The cost of living has increased by about 90 per cent. The cost of industrial power has increased since 1947 by 13.7 per cent. In planning for future development, inflation is a real danger and I hope that the ESB will continue to press forward plans for maximum productivity so that prime costs of power will remain at economic levels.

The ESB are keeping under review the developments in the use of nuclear energy for electricity generation. As Deputies will appreciate, rapid technological advances are taking place in this field. It seems unlikely at present, however, that a nuclear generating station will be an economic proposition in our circumstances for about another ten years or so.

The ESB had a further public stock issue of £6 million in March last which was heavily oversubscribed thus reflecting once more the confidence of the investing public in the board's undertaking.

The establishment of a nuclear energy board to advise the Government on nuclear energy matters generally is being considered.

The House has recently passed the Turf Development Bill, 1965, the purpose of which is to increase from £24 million to £28 million the statutory limit on borrowings by Bord na Móna. Bord na Móna's experience of weather conditions over the past number of years has shown that their original estimate of annual milled peat production was somewhat optimistic. They have, accordingly, found it necessary to revise their estimates on the basis of a lower but more realistic yield per acre for the future. In order to achieve the required output of milled peat on the basis of the lower yield the board are bringing additional fringe areas of bog into production.

The Board's milled peat production in 1964-65, while it was the highest ever produced and was about 30 per cent. higher than in the previous year, was still below planned output for the reason I have given. The board produced about 900,000 tons of sod peat in 1964-65 which was up to target, although slightly lower than in the previous year. Briquette production was slightly higher than in the previous year, but, because of some technical trouble at the factory which has since been remedied, was still some 20,000 tons short of the planned output of 315,000 tons.

The accounts of the board for 1964-65 are not yet to hand but I understand that the outcome of operations for the year is likely to show a deficit of the order of £500,000 due to the weather conditions I have referred to and increased costs. This deficit together with the deficit carried forward from previous years brings the total deficit of the board to about £800,000 which is, however, not excessive in relation to the board's present turnover of £6 million approximately.

The decision to mill peat over a larger area of bog each year should enable the board to close their small deficit if weather conditions remain average. Bord na Móna are having considerable success with their minor products, moss peat litter and UCEE potting compost. Moss peat is regarded by the Agricultural Institute as a standard component of glasshouse soil and it is incorporated with all soils for food crops such as tomato and cucumber as well as for flower culture under glass.

The use of UCEE soilless seed and potting compost is increasing among professional and amateur gardeners alike. This product introduced by Bord na Móna has been tested by the Institute as a propagating medium in connection with the early production of tomatoes and the uniform nature of the results obtained so far indicates that it may be more satisfactory than soil-based composts for this purpose.

Work is also proceeding on the development of cultural techniques for using moss peat alone as a growing medium in an effort to eliminate soil as a source of disease in glasshouse crops. A new market for a small quantity of sod turf has appeared in the new activiated carbon factory at Allenwood. The annual requirements of the factory are not great—16-20,000 tons per annum—but it is, nevertheless, a useful market.

Both the ESB and Bord na Móna are constantly re-examining and reappraising their procedures and methods. Among the matters to which the ESB have specially applied the techniques of work study are the location of stores, the transport of men and materials, forward planning, the economics of activities and associated paperwork. As a result, revised arrangements were introduced, including the design and purchase of special transport, alteration in the methods of procuring and delivering materials, re-definition of supervisory functions, organisation and planning of work and simplification of documentation and paperwork.

Bord na Móna have applied time and motion study to many of their operations thereby achieving greater output at lesser unit cost while the workers concerned have obtained higher pay for the efforts required. Method study has resulted in revised machine design for greater efficiency. Among the method study projects at present in hands are aspects of briquette production and baling, communications within the large milled peat bogs and various projects associated with changing techniques in sod peat production.

Coal consumption in 1964 was about 1.5 million tons or about nine per cent less than in 1963. Home production of semi-bituminous coal and anthracite was approximately 200,000 tons which was about the same level as in the previous year. Consumption of coal continues to decline, due to competition from other fuels, particularly oil. This is in line with the trend in Britain and on the Continent.

The investigation into the prospect of using the reserves of high ash content coal in the Arigna coal field in an extension to the Arigna generating station is almost completed and I expect that it will be possible to reach a conclusion in the matter shortly.

Irish anthracite producers have been experiencing difficulty in recent months in disposing of their output. One of the principal mines is on short time and three of the smaller mines are closed. There has, however, been no recent increase in imports of anthracite. In fact, imports in 1964 at 52,000 tons approximately were about 10 per cent lower than in either of the two previous years. Estimated home production in 1964 on the other hand amounted to 142,000 tons or about 10 per cent higher than in either of the two previous years.

The producers' difficulties appear to arise from an increase in home production and from a falling off in public demand due to competition from other fuels and to a lesser extent to the comparatively mild weather last winter. The Buy Irish Committee have been examining the marketing problem in co-operation with the producers and have, I understand, made certain suggestions to the producers with a view to improving the competitiveness of Irish anthracite.

I was approached by the Irish anthracite producers early in May with a request to control imports with a view to enabling the producers to dispose of their output. The matter has been discussed jointly by my Department and the Buy Irish Committee with representatives of the producers and the principal Dublin coal importers. The investigation of the remedial measures which may be feasible is being actively pursued and the possibility of some reduction in imports is being explored in the context of the provisions of the Anglo-Irish Trade Agreement.

The country's consumption of oil in 1964 amounted to approximately 1.7 million tons which was about 12 per cent higher than in the previous year and nearly double what it was in 1958. Oil now accounts for about two-fifths of the country's total primary energy requirements. While the demand for petrol and diesel oil continues to increase the most significant increase has been in the use of fuel oil for the generation of electricity. As the demand for energy grows the country is becoming increasingly dependent on oil as a source of primary energy and it is estimated that on present trends about half of our primary energy requirements will be supplied by oil by 1970.

My Department operates a scheme of grants to meet half the cost of fuel efficiency surveys in Irish factories and hotels. The object is to promote greater efficiency and economy in the use of fuel which will be of benefit not alone for the firm concerned, but also of help to the national economy and the balance of payments position.

In order to speed up application of the scheme arrangements were made in 1962 for a special promotional drive to interest firms in the savings which can be achieved by more efficient use of fuel. Accordingly it was arranged to have a number of firms visited by the National Industrial Fuel Efficieny Service who are a highly specialised expert body in this field, organised by the electricity, gas, coal and other fuel interests in Britain and who have a branch in Belfast. Since the drive was started in 1962, 115 firms have been visited by representatives of this service and on the basis of reports given it appears that there are potential fuel savings of at least 20 per cent of their total annual fuel bill. This could represent a very considerable amount of money. In the case of some 40 fuel efficiency surveys which have been completed the savings possible on the annual fuel bill amounted to about 28 per cent or £120,000 a year for these firms. In many cases these savings can be achieved by inexpensive modifications or adaptation of existing plants. In other cases the reduction in fuel bills may be unimportant as compared with the improvement in productivity possible.

In view of the importance of this job and the very definite savings that can be achieved both for the firms concerned and for the national economy, I propose continuing this scheme with all energy.

The Transport Act, 1964, which became law on 28th July, 1964, provided for payment to CIE in 1964-65 and in each subsequent financial year of a grant of £2 million subject to review in the year 1969-70. The Act also provided that with the aid of this subsidy the Board must break even, taking one year with another. The provisional figure for the Board's net deficit for 1964-65 is £1,475,000. The net deficit for 1963-64 was £1,606,000. The figure for 1963-64 was, however, affected by the net loss of £342,000 incurred through the April-May, 1963, bus strike. When this is taken into account, the apparent improvement of £131,000 in 1964-65 is altered to a relative disimprovement of £211,000. The difference between the subsidy and the net deficit in 1964-65, that is, £525,000, has been applied by the Board to meet essential commitments on capital account.

The operating deficit on the railway in 1964-65 is estimated at £1,202,000 compared with £905,000 in 1963-64. The main reason for the increase in the deficit was that an improvement in revenue consequent on the March, 1964, increase in rates and charges was more than offset by additional wage and salary costs and higher depreciation provisions. There was a reduction in rail freight tonnage and rail freight mileage, due mainly to the 3½ months' disruption in trade which resulted from the strikes in the building trade and in Dublin builders' providers establishments and to an overall reduction in sugar beet traffic and to a reduction in CIE's share of livestock traffic.

On the other hand, despite a reduction in suburban rail passenger traffic due to the return to the road passenger services of commuter traffic diverted to rail during the April/May, 1963, bus strike, there was a slight overall increase in rail passenger mileage. This was due to the fact that there was a big increase in the number of long-distance passengers carried by rail due to better holiday weather and more leisure time resulting from the increasing incidence of the five-day week in business and industry.

There was also a marked increase in excursion traffic. There are a great number of reduced fare schemes available on the Board's rail passenger services including day returns at single fare on selected days of the week, two day returns at single fare and one-third, weekend returns at single fare and a half, special weekend returns during the period from October to May at single fare and special excursions to sporting events at less than single fare. There are also special "rambler" tickets available enabling a person to travel anywhere on the Board's rail system for a period of 15 days for £6 10s. 0d. and on the road passenger services as well for an extra £2. For £11 a person can travel anywhere by rail or road on the CIE and UTA services for a period of 15 days. I have asked the Chairman to make a particular study of the Board's fares structure and have at all times encouraged the Board to experiment with cheaper fares on a still more extensive basis.

On and from 1st May, 1965, CIE introduced a reduction of 20 per cent in its standard wagon rates for conveyance of cattle by rail. Simultaneously the Board terminated the scheme whereby livestock traders were granted rebates based on their yearly freight payments for transport of cattle by rail; under the rebate scheme, traders whose rail freight payments exceeded £500 a year had been granted a rebate at the end of the year of up to 17½ per cent. As a result of the change, traders will, in effect, secure the benefits of the rebate scheme currently instead of waiting until the end of the year. The new reduced rates apply to all traders and it is the Board's hope (based on successful trial application of those reduced rates in the Limerick area) that they will attract new business and thus make a worth-while increase in rail revenue from this source. An increase of 454,000 or 43 per cent in the output of cattle by 1970 is envisaged under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and, in introducing the new rates, the Board are alive to the need to be in a position to cater for the transport demand arising from this projected increase in output. It is the Board's belief that the railway can make a vital contribution in catering for this demand.

The Board's road passenger services made headway during 1964-65, and, apart from recovering the losses incurred through the 1963 bus strike, they attracted an increase of more than four per cent in passengers carriad with a proportionate increase in gross revenue. This is the only one of the Board's transport services which earns sufficient to meet interest and sinking fund charges in addition to all operating expenses. The surplus, before charging interest and sinking fund, is estimated at £660,000.

Bookings for CIE road passenger tours were a record in the 1964 season. On extended coach tours, 16,800 passengers were carried in 1964 compared with 12,400 in 1963. On the one-day Mediaeval Tours operated by CIE from Shannon Airport, 9,000 passengers were carried in 1964 compared with 4,700 in 1963, which was the first year of operation of these tours. A new package holiday promotion introduced in 1964 was the "Golden Holiday" programme, a relatively new concept in tourism in Ireland, involving the block-booking of accommodation in hotels at particular resorts and the provision of day tours as part of the "package". Weekly chartered air flights from Manchester to Shannon and back were arranged in connection with the "Golden Holiday" programme, which CIE feel is particularly attuned to the requirements of the British and continental markets.

There was a slight betterment in the results of the Board's road freight services, which showed an estimated operating profit of £45,000 in 1964-65, compared with £37,000 in the previous year. I understand that road freight receipts in 1964-65 were adversely affected by reduced exports of meat and by a falling-off in demand for lorries for livestock, beet and county council traffic. The movement of bulk traffics has, however, shown an increase, notably bulk cement and barytes. During the year an extensive investigation into road freight working was carried out by CIE and as a result changes were made by the Board in the systems of management and administration of these services.

The CIE hotels subsidiary, Óstlanna Iompair Éireann Teoranta, had a very successful year. The operating profit on the hotels and other catering services increased from £135,000 in 1963-64 to an estimated £145,000 in 1964-65 due mainly to improved productivity. Canals, vessels, docks etc. continue to show losses, which in 1964-65 amounted to an estimated £85,000 compared with £76,000 in the preceding year.

Deputies will recall the observations I made during the passage of the 1964 Transport Act in outlining the policy to be pursued by the Board and, indeed, the whole staff of CIE. It is essential to repeat every year the conditions under which this very large subsidy, representing 22 per cent of rail revenue in the past year, is made available. The subsidy is very large by European standards and I have frequently explained the basic causes which necessitate this impost upon the taxpayers, who could spend the money in many other ways and in so doing employ more of our people. A subsidy to cover an operating deficit is a transfer of purchasing power from one direction to another, neither more nor less.

CIE already provide rail and road freight services at considerable loss over the Western and Northern areas, partly subsidised by profitable traffics in certain very limited sectors, so that under no circumstances can it be said that the poorer, less industrialised areas are not receiving benefit from the entire operation. This being the case, CIE will, I am certain, strive for maximum efficiency and productivity and seek maximum traffic with a view to conserving the subsidy at the lowest figure.

The fact that the fixed subsidy exceeded revenue losses by roughly £500,000 this year is not to be regarded as an opportunity for adding to CIE's costs. Over a period of five years costs may be expected to rise for one reason or another and savings in one year can be regarded as serving the following purposes:

(1) enabling CIE to meet capital expenditure out of the saving achieved, thus relieving the Exchequer at a time when capital is urgently required for more directly productive purposes;

(2) helping the Board to meet higher losses in later years.

Having studied the conditions under which rail and bus services operate in countries with a far higher income per head, particularly the working conditions, I can say quite frankly that if the subsidy is not to rise beyond the almost prohibitive level at which it now stands there will have to be consideration given to any changes that might take place which would markedly increase costs.

I wish to make it clear that the subsidy provided in the 1964 Act is already at the maximum tolerable limit and, after 1969, there would have to be fresh and urgent consideration of transport policy if the subsidy should need revision upwards. It is only with the greatest reluctance that I have recommended the subsidy. If the level had been that of other railway subsidies, some two per cent to six per cent of rail revenue, there would have been no great principle involved, but 22 per cent does raise important questions of principle. The other State bodies for which I am responsible have not been treated differently. Either they have been paying their way or they have been now put in a position whereby new capital is remunerated as in the case of the air companies. CIE are, of course, only a partial monopoly and will continue to face severe competition from private road transport.

Consequent on the withdrawal of general freight services by the Ulster Transport Authority in Northern Ireland and the closure of the Porta-down-Derry and Goraghwood-Newry-Warrenpoint lines, CIE have been operating since February last, by agreement with the UTA, express freight train services between Dublin and Belfast, and Dublin and Derry via Lisburn and Antrim, giving overnight delivery to and from Northern Ireland and County Donegal.

From 1959 onwards, I have been pressing CIE for a complete evaluation of express buses, particularly in areas not served by the Board's rail services. I was particularly interested, therefore, in the introduction with effect from 4th January, 1965, of express bus services between Dublin and Derry and Dublin and Letterkenny. The Dublin-Derry service is operated jointly by CIE and UTA and the Dublin-Letter-kenny route is operated solely by CIE. These two new services are the longest road express routes so far operated in this country; the journey from Dublin to Derry is 147 miles and from Dublin to Letterkenny 153 miles. Both services give improved timings on the previous timings and it is now possible to leave Letterkenny or Derry in the morning, spend the best part of the day in Dublin and return home by evening coach the same day. In the short time they have been in operation, both services have been successful. I would like to pay a tribute to the Northern Ireland authorities and to the Ulster Transport Authority, without whose co-operation these new express rail and road links would not have been possible. This is a good example of the type of co-operation and goodwill which will be to our mutual benefit.

I might also mention that with effect from 3rd May, 1965, CIE have extended to Donegal Town the existing express bus service between Dublin and Enniskillen via Cavan. They have also introduced, from 1st June, 1965, a new seasonal express service between Dublin and Shannon with an extension to Killarney. Seasonal express services are also operated by the Board between Galway and Shannon, Cork and Glengarriff, and Limerick and Kilkee. There have been developments in Dublin also. In December, 1964, CIE opened at O'Connell St., Dublin a Centralised Radio Traffic Centre, a scientifically devised traffic control system with the object of enabling the bus services to operate with greater flexibility and effect in the ever-increasing traffic congestion in Dublin city. The traffic congestion gives rise to problems of "bunching" of buses, resulting in long queues, undue delays and frustration for bus users. Reports on "bunching" are channelled through the control centres, which despatches the nearest of the Board's radio control cars to correct the situation in so far as the actual acute congestion will permit remedial action. Likewise, extra buses can now be introduced more readily as required at particular points and where gaps appear in the service due to traffic delays buses are turned short by inspectors with a view to minimising the effect of the disturbance.

As a further aid to improving passenger services in the Dublin city area, CIE have been carrying out a "pick-up/set-down" survey. Passenger movements are being recorded by means of special ticket machines and the results reviewed on punched cards. Services are being immediately adjusted according as the results of this survey are being analysed. A new schedule based on the survey has recently led to the provision of 500 extra seats for workers travelling to the city from the Ballyfermot area in the morning and back to Ballyfermot in the evening. Improved services have also been provided for the Crumlin, Drimnagh, Walkinstown, Templeogue, Terenure and Finglas areas, resulting in the provision of a considerable number of additional seats on these routes at peak periods.

On completion of the "pick-up/set-down" survey later this year, CIE will consider the desirability of any necessary alterations to the existing route pattern with a view to minimising the effect of traffic congestion. Such alterations may take the form of dividing some cross-city routes or making them into hairpin routes which will avoid as far as possible cross-city traffic.

Market research by CIE into the travel needs of the members of the public is not confined to Dublin but is spread over many areas. This research has continued during the past year and tributes from various public bodies and associations indicate that members of the public are becoming more conscious and appreciative of the Board's efforts. To choose just one as an example, Tramore Development Association passed a resolution last year complimenting CIE on the very good services they provided for Tramore during the summer season and, in particular, during the August Race Week.

It shows what a CIE fifth column can do.

I am sure that Deputies will have noted the intensive publicity campaign launched by CIE in newspapers and posters during the months of March and April under the general title of "People on the go— go CIE." I have many times in the past encouraged CIE to do more imaginative advertising and I wish, therefore, to take this opportunity of publicly congratulating the Board on an excellent and striking series of six different press advertisements which I hope will be fruitful in their results.

Amending superannuation schemes for the regular wages staff of CIE were recently confirmed. These schemes apply to over 14,000 CIE employees and give effect to the interim pension increases recommended by the Commission on CIE Pension and Sickness Benefit Payments which reported last year. The increase in pension rates is retrospective to the 1st April, 1963, as is also the increase in members' contributions. Under the amending pension schemes, CIE wages grade pensioners will continue to have the option of a pension at a flat rate for life commencing on retirement at 65 years of age, or, as an alternative, a higher rate of pension between the years of 65 and 70, reducing at the latter age to a lesser amount.

Male pensioners opting for the flat rate of pension will receive combined pension and social insurance benefit payments ranging from £6.2.6d to £7.12.6d per week at the age of 65 years and rising to a maximum of £8.7.6d per week at the age of 70 years. In the case of male pensioners opting for the alternative rate pension —i.e. a higher rate between 65 and 70 years and a lower rate thereafter— the married pensioner will have a maximum income at the age of 70 of £8.1s per week between CIE pension and social insurance benefits. A very good feature of the new pension rates is that when the pension and social insurance benefits are combined, married pensioners opting for the alternative rate of pension will no longer be subject to a reduction of income at the age of 70 years. CIE pensioners will, of course, benefit from the increase in Social Welfare benefits from January next.

There is a reduction of £250,000 in the estimate of the amount required for payments by the Exchequer to CIE in recoupment of redundancy compensation pensions for which the Exchequer is liable under the 1958 transport legislation. The Exchequer's liability for these payments is decreasing and will eventually disappear. The reason for the sharp reduction of £250,000 in this year's estimate is that the time limit has passed in which most of the redundant persons concerned could commute into capital sums part of their annual compensation pensions.

During 1964-65 capital expenditure by CIE was £3.4 million approximately, of which £1.9 million was met from the Board's depreciation provisions.

CIE are continuing with projects of rehabilitation and modernisation and are effecting improvements aimed at increasing productivity. Among the works carried out by the Board during the past year were the following: Automatic controls were installed at three public road level crossings; a scheme of reconstruction of the facilities at Rosslare Harbour was carried out with the object of having "roll-on roll-off" arrangements for the motor cars of tourists using the Fishguard/Rosslare route. These new arrangements are now in operation; work on the construction of a railway marshalling yard progressed at the premises of Nitrigin Éireann Teoranta near Arklow. Three-quarters of a mile of track and 14 turn-outs were provided; beet loading banks were extended at Ballycullane, Campile, Kilrane, Waterford and Grange. A new cattle bank was provided adjoining the cattle mart at Kilmallock; gantries for the off-loading of containers were erected at Roscrea and Rathluirc stations and a 10-ton mobile crane was provided at Limerick; and substantial additions to and renewals of the Board's road and rail rolling stock and equipment were made during the year. For example, new vehicles put into service for the road passenger services consisted of: 50 single-deck 45-seater buses, 18 double-deck 74-seater buses, and four luxury tourist coaches. The garage at Waterford was extended.

Other items of interest concerning the Board's operations during 1964-65 were: the introduction of one-man bus operation on the Dublin Airport services, on the Bray-Enniskerry route, on a number of services radiating from Dundalk and on a seasonal basis on a number of other services, including the Cork/Glengarriff service; the movement of cement in bulk by rail from the cement factories in Drogheda and Limerick; the extension of the mechanisation of clerical routines on the Dublin City services; a pilot scheme of mechanical coin counting was undertaken and a mechanical analysis of route statistics was put into operation; the improvement of staff amenities by the provision of new messrooms in Cork, Rathluirc, Limerick and Waterford and the reconstruction of dormitories in Thurles and Mallow; and the general improvement of the Board's public offices and railway stations.

CIE continue to be very much alive to the necessity of introducing improved systems and methods in order to increase output and reduce costs. Work study was used by CIE in the reorganisation of the Board's freight stores. Following the Sheriff Street/ Point stores amalgamation in 1963, the two remaining stores at North Wall have, during the past year, been combined and reorganised. The resulting new store has the most modern mechanical handling equipment and the principle of central reception has been introduced. This enables customers to discharge all sundry traffic for western and south-eastern stations at one point. The discharge time of vehicles has been reduced from 40 to 15 minutes and productivity has increased by 15 per cent.

I am delighted to be able to point out that CIE receive dozens of letters of commendation from a wide circle of satisfied customers praising the Board and their officials for good service and courtesy. Many of these letters may be read in CIE's fortnightly staff journal Nuacht. Personal service when related to a very large concern dealing with a huge number of transactions of immense variety is not established without great effort on the part of all concerned. This is not to say, of course, that there is not always room for improvement.

Before concluding my remarks on CIE I should like to compliment the Board on the excellent staff training courses which are conducted in the Board's Staff Training Centre at Lower Gardiner Street. Since the training centre was established in 1960, over 800 different courses for various grades of staff have been conducted by CIE and courses have been attended by over 9,000 members of the Board's staff. There have been courses for management staff, station masters, road freight crews, bus drivers and conductors, clerical officers, rail hostesses and hotel staff—to mention but a few of the many grades catered for. Of particular importance to my mind is the fact that the Board's apprentices, of whom there are about 250, attend general education courses in the training centre and are lectured on such subjects as civics, literature and art, economics and industrial organisation.

The initiative shown by CIE in the field of personnel training sets a splendid example to other State companies and, indeed, to large scale industries in general.

The provision for tourism takes the form of three grants-in-aid to Bord Fáilte Éireann under Subheads F.1, F.2 and F.3 of the Vote for my Department.

I am proposing that the provision under Subhead F.1 for Bord Fáilte's main grant-in-aid for this year should be £1,847,000. From this grant-in-aid the Board are required to meet the cost of overseas publicity and advertising and a wide range of activities including improvement works at minor resorts, access works and other improvements at places of historic or other special interest, assistance towards developing angling tourism and other sporting attractions, assistance to hotel staff training schemes, grants to meet interest on loans for accommodation and resort development and promotional work in connection with festivals, international conferences, etc.

The provision under this Subhead shows an increase of £497,000 over the amount voted last year and it reflects a general increase in the Board's activities particularly in overseas publicity and marketing. This stepping up of activity is necessary because of the growing competition in international tourism, because of the great importance of tourist income in the national economy and particularly because of the formidable target set for tourism under the Second Programme for Economic Expansion—a doubling of 1960 tourist income at constant money values by 1970. The provision for this year will bring expenditure above the limit of £5 million established by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1961. Proposals have been formulated for the further financing of the Board's general activities and I will be introducing the necessary legislation later this year.

A fund of £1 million which was established under the Tourist Traffic Act, 1959, for a ten year programme of major tourist resort development is also administered by Bord Fáilte and £350,000 is being provided for this purpose under Subhead F.2 for the present year, an increase of £100,000 over the amount provided last year. The purpose of this provision is to enable such essential schemes as basic site development, provision of promenades, parks and other recreational facilities to be undertaken in the selected major resorts.

Proposals are drawn up by Bord Fáilte in conjunction with local authorities and other local development interests. Progress of the resort development programme was slow in the early years because of local difficulties and the various preparatory steps which had to be gone through, namely, surveys, engagement of consultants, property acquisition, et cetera. Implementation of the scheme is now proceeding more rapidly due to the completion, in relation to a substantial number of individual items, of the initial stages of survey, consultation, et cetera.

This fact, together with the designation of the Shannon waterway as a resort area and the substantial increase in constructional costs since the scheme was undertaken, means that this year will be the year of maximum expenditure to date. I should mention that while it is a condition of the scheme that grants must be matched by a minimum 20 per cent local contribution, an average contribution of 33? per cent from local funds has in fact been made. The provision for the present year will almost exhaust the present statutory fund and the forthcoming legislation will provide for increased resort development funds.

The third subhead relating to tourism is Subhead F.3 under which £255,000 is being provided for the development of holiday accommodation. Payments under this subhead are made from a fund of £1½ million provided for the purpose under the Tourist Traffic Acts 1959 and 1961. Grant schemes are operated by Bord Fáilte to encourage the provision of additional hotel accommodation and the improvement of existing accommodation, the provision of indoor and outdoor entertainment facilities for hotel guests and the provision of staff accommodation.

The grants, which amount generally to 20 per cent of the cost of the works, subject to certain maxima, have stimulated a considerable amount of hotel development involving a total investment of approximately £10 million, including the grants, over the past five years. The expenditure under this head is directly related to the rate of investment in tourist accommodation. The decrease in the provision from £420,000 last year to £255,000 this year reflects the fact that the present demand for better class accommodation has been met, at least in certain priority areas.

There is, however, a continuing need for additional accommodation in some parts of the west, for improvement of existing hotels and for more middle and lower grade accommodation generally. The incentives schemes were accordingly revised last year to provide for increased assistance for new accommodation in resort areas and the grants have been extended to include guest houses providing at least ten bedrooms.

The revised schemes were designed particularly to encourage development in the more remote parts of the country. Since the revised schemes were introduced, increased interest has been shown in the development of middle grade hotel and guest house accommodation. Assistance is also being provided for youth hostels and other categories of visitor accommodation, such as colleges or other institutions catering for student traffic and other groups of visitors. Legislative proposals for increasing the present statutory fund have been formulated.

The total estimate of £2,452,000 under the three subheads is quite substantial. The provision is moderate however when account is taken of the vital part played by tourism in the expansion of the economy. Apart from providing considerable direct and indirect employment, tourism affords a valuable outlet for a wide range of goods and services and because of its decentralised nature its benefits extend to all parts of the country.

Tourism also makes a very important contribution to our external purchasing power and it is a significant factor in helping to bridge the gap in our balance of payments. There is no doubt that money spent on tourist development and promotion is productive. For example, Bord Fáilte spent £236,000 on the Fishing Development Plan 1957-1962 and have to date spent £100,000 on marketing this sport. The effect of this expenditure can clearly be seen from the fact that revenue from angling visitors has increased almost ten-fold since 1957-58—from £286,000 to £2,580,000 in 1964.

Funds expended by the Board in promoting conference and congress traffic have also yielded good results and revenue from this source in 1964 is estimated to have exceeded £200,000. In the more general sphere of tourist publicity it is not always possible to isolate and identify results in a mathematical way but I have no doubt that moneys invested by the State in developing our tourist trade are bringing worthwhile results and should continue to do so.

Bord Fáilte in their own organisation strive to achieve a high degree of efficiency and they have had the advice and assistance of management consultants on this objective. They also encourage the hotel industry to make use of the most modern methods and techniques. They provide architectural advice for hoteliers undertaking development work and economic advisory service on hotel operations. The Board's registration officers have an appreciation of work study application and try to assist hoteliers in the employment of the most efficient methods. Bord Fáilte provide advice also on hotel accountancy. In addition to this, they assist hoteliers and local development interests in the preparation and distribution of brochures, information leaflets and so on.

Turning to results for 1964, Deputies will already be aware that that year was a very successful one for the tourist industry. Visitor spending amounted to £58.8 million, a rise of £9 million, or 18.1 per cent, on the 1963 figure. A breakdown of this £9 million shows an increase of £5.6 million in spending by visitors from Northern Ireland, £2.5 million by cross-Channel visitors and an additional £0.9 million by visitors coming to Ireland direct from other countries.

When account is taken of a further £9 million earned overseas by Irish transport companies through fares, the total value of the industry in 1964 was £67.8 million. At 1960 money values —and we are working on 1960 values for the purpose of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion—the 1964 income was worth about £58 million, an increase of £13.8 million or 31 per cent over 1960. This places us just on target to secure the doubling of tourist income between 1960 and 1970. Tourists in the narrowest sense of the term, as distinct from tourists visiting relatives and tourists on business, contributed 73 per cent of total receipts, compared with 58 per cent in 1961.

The figures I have given show that a substantial proportion of the increased tourist traffic came from Northern Ireland, particularly day-trippers. Income from visitors coming from Great Britain and other countries did not increase at the same rate but these markets showed some increase and there is every expectation that the upward trend in the returns from these sectors in recent years will be maintained.

Bord Fáilte's target of 600 additional registered bedrooms for 1965 was attained, bringing the total number of bedrooms in hotels and guest houses to 20,958. The total number of persons who can now be accommodated in registered premises is 37,000. The total number of bednights spent in registered premises in 1964 was 2,894,000. The list of supplementary premises in private houses in main centres, resorts and fishing areas was extended to cater for 5,000 people. Farmhouse accommodation for 500 people is also listed and it is hoped to extend this category substantially.

Motoring tourism continued to expand during the year. The number of visitors' cars shipped here from Britain rose from fewer than 7,000 in 1957 to 30,000 last year. Car shipments will be greatly increased this year as a result of the new and improved services being offered by British Rail on the Holyhead/Dún Laoghaire and Fishguard/ Rosslare routes. The B&I are also continuing to play an important part in this trade—last year over 40 per cent of the cars shipped here were carried on the company's vessels.

The abolition of the triptyque some years ago for cars entering the State brought about a tremendous increase in south-bound cross-Border car traffic and car crossings inwards last year rose by more than 1,300,000, or 30 per cent, to 6,000,000. This year there has been a further relaxation for caravans, boat trailers and other such vehicles being used for holiday purposes. The recent additions to the number of approved cross-Border roads should provide a further boost for cross-Border car traffic.

Waterway development went ahead. Seventy cruisers were available for hire on the Shannon last season — there were two in 1960. The boats provided 300 berths and accommodated an estimated 4,500 people. Earnings have risen from practically nothing in 1960 to £100,000 in 1964. This is a very promising enterprise and I have approved of the decision by Bord Fáilte to finance the development of amenities on the Shannon from the Major Resorts Development Fund.

A guide to the 500 or more monuments in State care — an important tourist asset — has been published by Bord Fáilte in conjunction with the National Monuments Service of the Office of Public Works. This guide will be of considerable value in publicising our wealth of historic monuments and buildings. The National Monuments Service is being re-organised and the Minister for Finance has agreed to provide increased funds. My Department and Bord Fáilte are co-operating with the National Monuments Service in drawing up a programme for the development of monuments.

Another important development of the past year was the bringing into operation of the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963. The Minister for Local Government has arranged for the new National Institute for Physical Planning and Construction Research to undertake a pilot study in County Donegal and to prepare a model plan to show how amenities and facilities can be improved rapidly and comprehensively. This model plan will assist the development of amenities in other counties.

The eight regional tourism companies have been given encouraging support by local authorities and there has been a substantial increase in funds allocated, through these companies, for tourist development. When I asked Bord Fáilte to promote regional tourist organisations, I did so in the knowledge that regional tourist consciousness and regional investment at all levels in tourist development was perhaps the most important step to be taken in the 'sixties to ensure the achievement of the Second Programme target.

In every country of Europe regional organisations are spending from one per cent to two per cent of tourist regional expenditure or even more on the provision of better services and amenities for visitors. This should be regarded as the absolute minimum; it falls far short of the expenditure of commercial firms who promote national campaigns for sale of their products corresponding with the Bord Fáilte promotional campaign and devote considerable sums in regional areas, sometimes in joint arrangements with local agents. On this basis the regional companies when fully operative should be spending between them over £1 million annually on the basis of current tourist income. We are very far from this target but I am glad to know that the total of the local authority contributions has increased from £24,440 in 1963-64 to £42,000 in the current year.

The revenue from regional companies must come from local authorities and from all local tourist and business interests. As we advance into the late 'sixties the regional companies will have made their assessment of the tourist potential and the full picture will have emerged. There are, nevertheless, certain defined priorities in local development which must be emphasised from year to year:

(1) More facilities for recreation in general and more beach facilities at seaside resorts. To mention just one example: the golf courses of Britain and the USA are grossly overcrowded and facilities for visitors golfing here need an overall regional examination.

(2) More accommodation, particularly along stretches of the coast such as Wexford and in some western areas; also in resorts where the sea angling is limited in turnover only by lack of accommodation and boats; grants for the provision of such accommodation have been increased.

(3) More facilities of every kind for visitors during wet weather.

(4) The development of well-placed caravan parks, motels and holiday camps.

(5) Far more encouragement for young people.

More research will, I am certain, reveal the necessity for encouraging more families and children here.

(6) More farmhouse and guesthouse accommodation.

(7) Far more cultural entertainment, and for this I would again repeat that the museums of Europe are filled with people who have never received any cultural education whatever, unless they have sought it for themselves. This would include far more elaborate presentation of our national monuments.

(8) The sea angling potential in particular has only been partially exploited and there are areas where the absence of a live development association, boats and accommodation, holds back development.

(9) Specific local campaigns to encourage early spring and autumn tours.

(10) Far more imaginative sign-posting.

(11) Last, and extremely important, every kind of promotion which enables tourists to become acquainted with our folklore, our singing, dancing, drama, poetry and our sport.

This means in effect that the public who are interested in tourist development should join the regional companies and work intensively for development. This essential activity is now beginning to be significant. What is needed now are not discussions and resolutions asking for action but practical work done at grass-roots level, for which in many cases, Government grants and loans are available. The more tourists come to a region the greater the income accruing to farmers and business people of all kinds. In consequence contributions to the regional companies must be measured against growth of incomes in the area. In Kerry and Cork, for example, tourists spent £8 million in 1964.

The pioneering development associations, particularly in the angling areas, are to be congratulated on their unpublished devoted labours during the past six years. Their example can be followed by others.

The question of the short season, which creates problems for all services connected with the transport and tourist industry and limits our tourist income, continued to receive attention. Deputies may recall that in January last year I appointed a commission of inquiry to carry out a study of public holidays and bank holidays. The commission was under the Chairmanship of Mr. G. P. Sarsfield Hogan and included representatives of Muintir na Tíre, the Federated Union of Employers, Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Association of Chambers of Commerce of Ireland, the Irish County Councils General Council, Bord Fáilte and my Department. The commission has recently completed its work and reported to me. I think I should take this opportunity of congratulating the chairman and members of the commission on the thoroughness of their inquiries and the speed with which they completed their assignment. The report is now being printed and will be presented to the Oireachtas and placed on sale.

In the meantime, I would like—in view of the change of the August bank holiday in Britain and Northern Ireland—to repeat my earlier announcement that our August bank holiday will fall this year on the first Monday in August as usual. Adequate notice will be given to all concerned about any changes that may be decided on in future bank holiday or public holiday arrangements.

Deputies will be aware that recent months have seen significant developments in the relations between North and South. The expression on both sides of a desire for greater co-operation is particularly welcome to me as Minister responsible for tourism. I feel that there is considerable scope for co-operative efforts in the sphere of tourism and I have had very useful talks in the matter with Mr. Faulkner, the Minister for Commerce. As a result of these talks Mr. Faulkner and I invited the two tourist boards —the Northern Ireland Tourist Board and Bord Fáilte—to appoint a joint committee through which the two Boards would consult together. The committee, which has since been established, will discuss practical improvements to facilitate and encourage cross-Border tourist traffic, the improvement of tourist statistics and joint promotional efforts. It will also be a function of the Committee to make recommendations to the two Ministers concerned on further measures for co-operation. The establishment of this committee is a notable step in North/ South co-operation and will certainly redound to the benefit of tourism in both parts of the country. Local interests on both sides of the Border are also co-operating directly in the promotion and development of enterprises designed to increase tourist traffic in their areas.

I would like to refer briefly at this point to the particular value and benefits of tourism to northern and western areas. Many of the country's most scenic areas are located on or near the western seaboard and these attract a significant volume of tourist traffic. With the increased trend towards motoring holidays, the number of visitors to such areas is expected to increase. A considerable proportion of Bord Fáilte assistance towards the development of amenities and facilities for visitors has been allocated to the western areas and the Board give special consideration to projects for the provision or improvement of holiday accommodation in the west. The campaign for the development of coarse angling and the listing of supplementary accommodation for angling and other visitors has brought additional income to many areas which previously did not share to any great extent in the income from visitors. Further measures to enable the small farm areas of the west to share more directly in the benefits of tourism are at present receiving active consideration.

Bord Fáilte have made a tentative forecast that tourist receipts for 1965 will rise to £75 million. This would mean a 12 per cent increase over 1964 and would keep us on target to double 1960 income by 1970. Tourism is, however, a highly competitive business and is becoming increasingly so each year as more and more new countries realise the benefits that can be won. There are many factors in the field of tourism which could adversely affect receipts, such as a deterioration in the economic situation in Britain and the proposal to restrict spending by Americans going abroad on holiday. Sustained effort is needed to attract increased numbers of visitors to Ireland and raise our net tourist income. This entails a continuing programme for the improvement of amenities at home and better facilities and services for visitors as well as intensive advertising and publicity in overseas markets. It means also that we must endeavour to offer good value to visitors. The whole country is now very conscious of the benefits of tourism and I am confident that the necessary effort will be forthcoming.

This very comprehensive brief, which I have taken the trouble to number, comprises 95 pages and while it has been a great feat on the part of the Minister to read it with sustained clarity, nevertheless it presents quite an amount of difficulty to one receiving it for the first time. Certainly, I should not like to receive a document of this kind in my ordinary professional life and have to face up to it in the time it took the Minister to read it. However, I shall try to deal with the matters raised by the Minister so far as I possibly can in the order in which he has dealt with them. Where praise is due, I shall endeavour to give it in full; where I think criticism is needed, I shall offer it in the most constructive manner and I should like it to be accepted in that spirit.

If I may make a few general remarks at the outset in relation to the Minister's responsibility for these companies over the years between Estimate and Estimate, I find it rather difficult to accept a situation in which the Minister, who now gives us this very detailed and complex account of the workings of the various State sponsored bodies, in the course of the year either finds it difficult to answer a question or sometimes cannot even be reached with a question. We are told that he is not responsible for day-to-day administration, that he does not have responsibility for operations conducted by these boards or semi-State companies, but on page 5 of this brief—according to my own marking—the Minister has, in my view, a very significant sentence: "My aim is to ensure maximum efficiency in every detail of administration." I accept that unreservedly. Somewhat higher up on the same page, the Minister says:

The major directives of the Government have been re-stated and modifications to meet new situations, changes in emphasis on particular problems emerging, have been fully debated.

Between "major directives" on the one hand and "maximum efficiency in every detail of administration" on the other, I see no reason why the Minister could not allow himself the luxury, and very often the highly intellectual recreation, of answering parliamentary questions in this regard. Perhaps there would be some way of dealing with that matter which the Minister might consider before he comes to the Estimate next year because it does give rise to an amount of irritation, not alone on the part of Deputies but also on the part of outside interests who approach Deputies to ask questions. It would be no harm if there were some relaxation in that direction. I shall not press the matter further.

The Minister began with the operation of airports. It is now pretty well accepted that air services, whether they be short-haul or long-haul, will not pay so far as we understand the term "pay", in the sense that everything must be covered, operational costs as well as depreciation, replacements and all these matters. Once that is accepted, we must submit to making provision for them.

I do travel occasionally by Aer Lingus and while I have not had the pleasure—and I understand it is a privilege—of travelling on the long distance flight to America, on the journeys I have made with Aer Lingus, I found, as I think is the experience of everybody, that they are extremely efficient. The staff are helpful, both on the ground and in the air. No complaint can be made in regard to the charges for travelling by Aer Lingus, particularly on short runs; they are extremely reasonable.

Cork Airport is only in its infancy and, in any case, there are Corkmen here ready to deal with any situation on any side of the House if the occasion arises and I do not propose to go into the matter in any probing way as I think it is much too early. Shannon Airport is a different matter. I am seeking information now in regard to landings and planes flying over Shannon. I should like to know what is happening, whether there has been an increase in the number of landings, or a decrease, or whether air companies are flying over Shannon to get to Europe direct or going into London or Paris direct. I should also like to know if the Minister sees anything in the views that have been urged on me by people more au fait with this situation than I am and who say that the insistence on Shannon landings is in direct conflict with tourism promotion generally, that people are anxious to come to Dublin—because the conflict is really between Shannon and Dublin.

I am not critical of the position; I am seeking information. I should like to see both airports doing well and continuing to do well, just as I should like to see the same thing happen in the case of Cork and any future airports that might be established in the country. Speaking as a person from the west of Ireland, I look forward to some kind of air facilities, even landing strips, in the not too distant future at selected points in the west and north-west. These would benefit tourism considerably in those areas.

There is one other aspect of Shannon. The Minister mentioned that about £31,000 was being taken up on housing, something closely akin to payments from Local Government. He did not tell us the number of houses, which is something I should like to know, which I think the House and possibly the country would like to know, just to show that what is being done is reasonable. Great damage is done to a good cause by giving either scant or faulty information or by withholding it for some reason. I do not suggest for a moment that the Minister is withholding information ; it is just a matter of the manner in which it is presented. Considerable damage can be done by giving a chance to suspicious people to make charges, or people anxious to do so, that there is a certain dissipation of public money going on. They point to something that is not fully explained. That is one of the things to be avoided, particularly in the presentation of accounts of State-sponsored bodies.

I was leaving the details to the Shannon Free Airport Development Bill.

The Minister sees my point, I hope?

The Minister, probably for good reason, treated very lightly the question of the duty free position at Shannon when he said:

The Sales and Catering Service have coped with these challenges in the past with zeal and ingenuity and I am sure will continue to do so in the future should this be necessary. These difficulties still exist and indeed tend to increase.

Recently, in America, Congress passed a resolution reducing by 80 per cent the amount of duty free purchases to be brought in, in the liquor business particularly. That would cause considerable trouble, of course, at the Shannon duty-free shop. There was a report in one Sunday newspaper here about the difficulties involved there and it was stated that some of the Shannon personnel had gone to America to deal with the situation. I hope success attended their efforts if there was a genuine difficulty existing there at that time. It is sometimes extremely difficult to know from newspaper reports whether a situation is as bad, or, indeed, as good, as it is represented. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us what the position is in that regard and, if the situation is a bad one, if it has been averted, because it is important that the Shannon duty-free shop should continue to thrive and prosper. The duty-free shop at Shannon together with the mediaeval banquets at Bunratty are possibly the important attractions towards the steady development of Shannon Airport.

I do not propose to say any more on the question of air services. It is good to hear that the Boeing jet service to the North Atlantic is meeting with the success which the Minister says it is.

On the matter of the Electricity Supply Board, under the heading of "Energy", really, the question of rural electrification, of course, comes first to the mind of a rural Deputy but I must keep in mind the broad general picture of electrification of the entire country. I do not think rural electrification presents any difficulty in a very great part of the country. Difficulty arises only in the remote districts where the capital cost is, or used to be, described as prohibitive. I hope that when we allow the board, as I am sure we will, to increase its borrowing under the Electricity Supply Board Bill some of it will be devoted to that purpose on a very long-term basis because electrification is important, particularly in remote villages along the western, northwestern and southern seaboards and also in parts of the midlands, possibly in inaccessible mountain areas, where difficulties arise. It must be appreciated that these places are the supply stream, as it were, of population. With population declining in the west and that whole stretch from west Cork to Donegal unable to survive, it is essential that their standards of living be raised as high as possible. Rural electrification is not the least of the amenities that should be made available to them.

I appreciate that the capital cost is high and that somebody must pay for that but some way should be worked out of extending the repayments over a much longer period and the half yearly or two monthly charges should not be made so high initially. That is what frightens people during the canvass. I can assure the Minister and the House that even though those extra charges may look small to him or to me or to people accustomed to dealing with bigger money, to people of the kind for whom I speak they represent a considerable sum, indeed, and one which is frightening in the narrow limits of their economy.

The Minister would be doing a very good day's work, indeed, for the ESB and making a forward stride both politically and economically if these little irritations were wiped out and he could manage in some way or another to extend rural electrification to the valleys, the hillsides and the remote fishing villages.

There is another aspect of electricity supply. I do not know whether it is a function of the board or not but the board has its own repair centres which consumers can ring up when they are in trouble. I am told, and I have some experience of it, that there is a shortage of technicians and that one has to wait a considerable time before a technician is available to repair the article that has gone out of action. I wonder is the board having difficulty in getting technicians and, if so, what is the reason, because there appear to be big numbers of boys available from schools like Kevin Street and Bolton Street. I am speaking only of Dublin now because I do not think that kind of delay takes place to any extent in the country. If there is any difficulty about it perhaps the Minister may have the situation examined and improved?

Bord na Móna is a body in which I am particularly interested, having a considerable amount of turf development in my own constituency and also being aware of the fact that these turf developments have been so successful. I can tell the Minister that his exhortation to people to use by-products of Bord na Móna, such as UCEE, cannot be too loudly proclaimed. The exhortation should get the greatest possible publicity because I do know that these are excellent products. I have seen them being used.

I should like to know a little more about the plan for the production of milled peat, the target set and how bad weather appears to have interfered. There are turf-fired stations at Miltown Malbay, at Screebe and at Belacorick and I should like to know from the Minister what is the present position in regard to them. Are they producing electricity to their full capacity and, if not, why not, and when he expects that they may be producing to full capacity?

The Minister said, in dealing with oil, that oil accounts for two-fifths of the country's total primary energy requirements and that it is estimated that by 1970 about half of our primary energy requirements will be supplied by oil. I suppose that is a normal evolution. Then the Minister says in regard to nuclear energy that the situation has been examined but that it would not be realistic to set up a nuclear station for the production of energy for about another ten years. I should like to hear a little more about that and to consider in that light the advisability of expending large sums of money, in the meantime, on projects that might become useless and out of date in a very short time.

On Irish Shipping, there is only one matter to which I want to refer, that is, the question of what are being called its public service obligations. I wonder if a review has been made of that as I see is suggested in an address by the General Manager of CIE as printed in Nuacht of 16th April, 1965, when Mr. Frank Lemass was speaking on Transport in the Second Programme for Economir Expansion to the South-Western Group of the Institute of Transport at Limerick. I am at a loss when the Minister talks about operational costs, profits, depreciation, remuneration of capital, and so on. He says Irish Shipping, in particular, is doing well. I should like to know what that means in the light of what I wish to quote from the address given by Mr. Frank Lemass on that occasion in Limerick:

The dry cargo fleet operating tramp and charter services is making a net profit after depreciation. All-in-all it is no surprise to learn that Irish Shipping is losing money— more than £3 million in the last six years according to the programme.

It is the Programme for Economic Expansion to which he is referring.

There have been operating profits in all except one year but these have not been sufficient to cover depreciation.

I wonder how long that will go on. Is it to be a service that will operate at a loss all the time? In this address, which is a very clear one, given by Mr. Lemass, I see a lot of what he himself calls thought-provoking things. The Minister referred to ports. The small ports still have a part to play in the provision of cheap transport for remote areas. While I would agree that the bigger-sized tanker is necessary and more economic, I believe that from the point of view of supplying the remote areas of the west, north-west and south, the coaster has still a part to play, and Irish Shipping would do well to consider the provision of such transport.

CIE has done something about the storage of oil up to a six months supply and some thought should be given to the storage of oil of all kinds, diesel oil, petrol, aviation spirit, and so on. We are living in a world now where horse-drawn traffic is gradually dying out, and in the event of an emergency, it is highly desirable that there should be a certain amount of oil in storage. By "oil" I mean the generic word embracing all kinds of oil that produce power for transport, industry or any other productive activity. There is only a small number of oil companies supplying oil here, about three altogether. Instead of engaging in outrageously costly advertising, these companies should be exhorted, not forced, to devote part of that money to the provision of storage facilities. Then we could feel a lot happier in the event of an emergency coming upon us. It need not necessarily be a general war emergency but a war affecting the oil-supplying countries. The Middle East is always a place where things can blow up very suddenly and cause trouble.

In regard to CIE, this company appears to present the biggest problem of all. I do not know whether our population is increasing or decreasing, but for the purpose of argument, let us say it is static. There is the same amount of accommodation for travelling on railway lines today as there was heretofore and, side by side with that, the number of private vehicles is increasing. That is where CIE is presented with a real problem. The history of it is well known to Deputies on all sides of the House: how we hoped to break even after five years when no further subsidy would be required. Now it must be accepted that CIE, the public transport system, cannot pay its way.

Let me quote again from the address given by the General Manager of CIE to which I have already referred where he says of the Programme for Economic Expansion:

The parts of the Programme I read to you make it quite clear that the Government now accepts that a public transport system incorporating rail services cannot pay its way.

If it is so, and I see no reason to doubt it, and subsidisation must be a perennial feature of the transport system, then it amounts in part, at any rate, to a social service. That being so, the social service should extend to as many parts of the country as possible and facilitate as many people as possible. I therefore urge upon the Minister that he should give grave consideration to the whole matter before he countenances the taking up of any more branch lines by the Board of CIE.

Between 1958 and 1964, according to the information in this article, we closed down 621 miles of railway and 218 stations and halts. I agree that probably some of these halts and stations were no longer required but, perhaps, the closure should not have been as drastic as it was. Vast areas of the country, such as west Cork, have been deprived of rail transport. The Minister's constituentcy of Monaghan has no bit of railway at all in it now. The position in Donegal is the same. Other large areas have also been affected. This is something that merits the fullest consideration. Where the railway does not pay vis-à-vis the subsidy, it amounts to a social service to which our people are entitled. The whole problem requires extremely careful handling, of course, because one is dealing not alone with providing money for rolling stock and the maintenance of lines but is also faced with the big redundancy problem and its effect on the lives, incomes and welfare of the families employed. This is not an easy matter to handle, I admit, either through negotiation or otherwise.

I am glad the hotels are doing so well. It does not come as a surprise to me that the profits are so huge because the prices are not suited to the average pocket. However, the railway hotels were always known as the hotels for the people with the money. Presumably that tradition is being continued, and so the charges are high. Good luck to them, so long as they can get the clients. However, we are, I think, running a grave risk of pricing ourselves out of tourism not alone in relation to the railway hotels but in relation to other hotels as well. They are becoming outrageously dear. A meal for four people, not a very elaborate meal, accompanied by a very moderate amount of wine can cost as much as £10, the basic wage of the average worker. When prices reach that limit, they become not only economically impossible but almost sinful for anyone to pay.

I am not so happy that everything is going according to plan, or lack of plan, in relation to tourism. Very little real planning seems to have been done. I understand that the offices at Baggot Street are no longer spacious enough and the Tourist Board have spread into a second office already and are in process of acquiring a third. The office block was built in 1961—four short years ago—and, at that time, two floors were let to Córas Tráchtála. Now this latter body have not enough room either. That shows lack of planning at the very start.

The Minister mentioned targets and a figure of roughly £68 million when transport receipts are included. Of the £68 million, I would say £25 million comes from the North of Ireland, £12 million is attributable to visits from relations—the tourist people call that the ethnic group—and £2 million I would attribute to businessmen coming and going on business. That gives a total of £48 million, leaving £20 million for genuine tourists. Putting back £5 million of the transport would bring it up to £25 million pure tourist traffic. To get that figure, we propose spending this year about £2½ million. According to my information, the British Travel Holiday Association spend around £1½ million and on that they get a return of £150 million. These are round figures. I know it can be argued that Great Britain, like France, Spain, and other places, is well known, comparatively speaking, and that we are not so well known. However, it is my belief that we must be ready and have plans.

The target for 1970 is put at £90 million in terms of 1960 prices. That is a very high target, one that will require great organisation and great promotion. There is the question of the provision of extra bedrooms. To reach that target, we would require 1,500 extra bedrooms per year. The figure is now running somewhere between 400 and 600. We have, of course, a rather short season—the peak period, in other words—and naturally enough a bottleneck is created. All our first-class accommodation is taken during that short period in both the big and the smaller hotels. Unless we are prepared to build more hotels and provide more bedroom accommodation, we cannot take any more tourists. It should not be our policy now to spend large sums in America. We should look to the British holidaymaker, who is nearer to us, who will have so much to spend and who will spend it.

The British holidaymaker wants reasonable accommodation, clean and comfortable, in which he will get home-cooked food. He does not want anything exotic, but he wants something that will satisfy him. Farmhouse holidays are an admirable solution. Our people should be encouraged to supply holidaymakers with home-baked brown bread, home-made butter and home-cured bacon instead of rushing off to buy something cold in the nearest shop, or something fancy, because they think the strangers will like it. What the stranger wants is what you are having yourself. We should deal with it on the basis that what is good enough for us is good enough for the stranger, provided it is tastefully presented, healthy and wholesome.

The Scots have built up a tremendous tourist traffic. There is not a window in any house, big or small, in Scotland, particularly on the west coast, in the Highlands and out in the islands, which does not bear a placard in the window indicating that there is accommodation available. I have been there myself. In the big houses and small houses, I have found the accommodation the same — comfortable, clean and, as far as they can manage it, they always give you their own food. And, as far as I could see, they could always manage it. I see no reason why that could not be done here. It could be done to a great extent through local development organisations. It could be planned from the local vocational school, particularly on the domestic economy side.

We have a short season and I think we are inclined to pack too much into it. We are also inclined to fall for proposals to sponsor projects put up to us from time to time. I particularly mention festivals. There was a music festival here which went on for three years. I do not know how much it cost Bord Fáilte. Then it was dropped. Maybe one should experiment with these things, but when it comes to experimenting, I think the amount of money involved should be taken into consideration.

I do not know what the Dublin Theatre Festival gets. It is held in September now. Too much is packed into it and I do not think it attracts many tourists. Dublin people certainly try to get to as many of the plays as they can, but unless one took holidays during that time, one could not get in every play. I am told the music festival, which was dropped, cost the board something in the neighbourhood of £30,000. I am told the Theatre Festival gets about £6,000. While I think playwrights and actors should be considered, they should not be considered on the false premise that they are bringing in tourists. The consideration should come from somewhere else. I think these matters affecting drama, writing or any of these activities should be made the peculiar property of the Arts Council, rather than have Bord Fáilte saddled with them.

I wonder if Bord Fáilte fall down in the matter of having literature ready in time. I do not know whether it is correct or not, but I am told that for the Yeats celebrations, they were too late to have the necessary publicity circulated in America. If that is so, it is a pity. There must be a large number of Irish people in America who will be particularly interested in Ireland next year, the 50th anniversary of the 1916 Rising. For that reason Bord Fáilte should now take steps to have the necessary publicity ready for that event and start on it now. I am told festival programmes are available too late for advertising abroad. This information should be available in the spring or early summer.

A considerable amount of money is being spent on people going to conferences. One is held by an organisation called, I think, the American Society of Travel Agents. I think the people going to it, hoteliers and so on, are partly but not fully subsidised. One should think of going to places where one can get tourists. One should spend money on tourist promotion and on societies from which one is likely to get some benefit. I do not know if this is such an occasion. In any event, I would be interested in the Minister's views on the aspect of festival programmes.

I cannot commend too highly the activities of Bord Fáilte in regard to conference promotion. The only fault I might find with it—it is not really a fault because it is beyond the capacity of Bord Fáilte to alter the situation —is that they should try to get these conferences in the off-season. I know how difficult that is. Many of these conferences are educational and have to take place during holiday time. But, as far as possible, conference promotion should be used to lengthen our season.

In regard to regional tourism, it is still too early to speak with any degree of authority or to criticise. I must say I have not very much faith in its structure. I think the local development associations, properly encouraged, could do well enough without these queerly constituted regional bodies, and particularly the kind of people recruited to look after them. As far as I can see, none of them has any experience at all of tourism, its promotion, its importance and value in the country's economy. I do not know how it happened, but there you are.

I do not think there is anything more I wish to say on this Estimate. Of course, the Minister has considerable responsibility. When one thinks of the size and weight of this brief and the amount that it covers, it is still found that it has of necessity to be skimpy. I can appreciate that, while the Minister might like to give a lot more detail, it would run then into the sort of brief that would become unmanageable. As the Minister was reading, I was wondering if we could not have a debate on this piecemeal. That might keep us here for a long time, because everybody would have his own subject on which to talk. I was thinking of a debate in which we could discuss separately the ESB, Bord no Móna and the air services. However, the Minister mentioned that two Bills are being introduced dealing with these two very important aspects of his Department. Therefore, I shall content myself with leaving it at that. I hope all these bodies will prosper, that all their work will be directed towards the proper ends, and that every penny they expend will bring in the appropriate harvest.

Finally, I would ask the Minister to work out some way of meeting Deputies who wish to ask questions about these bodies, answers to which might have greater publicity benefit than the withholding of the information or an expression of inability to give it.

Since approximately 4.30 p.m., the House has been invited to listen to a 95 page document put before us by the Minister. He spoke about attracting tourists. If we had a package deal with a tourist agency and brought them into this House this evening to hear the proceedings on tourism, I honestly do not think we would be attracting any tourists at all. During the debate there were not more than ten members in the House at any time and, behind the Minister, there were not more than four Deputies of his Party—one of them had a good sleep—who were interested in the document he produced here today. I propose, as far as I can, to explain the reason why.

The lack of attendance in this House in regard to discussion of this Estimate and the lack of interest by the elected representatives of the people are indicative of the feeling abroad amongst the ordinary citizens as far as the Department of Transport and Power is concerned. I make a present to the Minister of this statement. Popular feeling is that there is no need for a Minister for Transport and Power.

Colleagues of mine in the Labour Party put down a motion here which was fully discussed and I do not think one can ever charge the Labour Party with saying we do not want proper administration. The idea in the minds of the ordinary citizens is that we have a Minister for Transport and Power who has no power or, if he has power, has decided not to exercise it. When I speak of the Minister now, I should like to say I am not speaking of him personally but of whoever may be Minister for Transport and Power at any time. Deputies come into the House and have the frustrating experience of asking the Minister questions about the ESB, CIE, Bord na Móna or any of the State-sponsored bodies he presides over. When I say he "presides over" them, I mean that he dictates the general policy. When we ask questions of the Minister about any of these bodies, he says: "I am not responsible for the day-to-day activities of that concern." I receive that answer from the Minister and I go back to Cork and find that when the Minister attends the annual general meeting of some chamber of commerce he knows everything about the day-to-day activities of CIE, the ESB, Bord na Móna or any other such organisation.

I have often heard Deputy T. Lynch raising questions here about some of the State-sponsored bodies. He is told the Minister is not responsible for the day-to-day activities of these bodies. We find the Minister goes down to Wexford or Waterford the following week and knows all about their activities. You get the kind of piffle—I do not think I can describe it by any other word—that the day-to-day activities of CIE, or of any of the other bodies, are not the responsibility of the Minister. I am expected to sit here and listen to talk about traffic congestion in Dublin. The Minister told us that traffic congestion gives rise to bunching of buses. The Minister is an expert on all these matters. I am not particularly worried about the bunching of buses in Dublin but I am particularly worried about the closing of lines going out of Cork. I was particularly worried about the closing of the Cork-Youghal line. Deputy T. Lynch was particularly worried about the closing of the Tramore line.

The Deputy must remember that on the closing of the West Cork and Waterford railway lines, I gave a very detailed explanation as to why they were being closed in a special debate on the report of CIE.

The Minister did not give a detailed explanation or answer questions he was asked here.

I am sure the Minister will agree that a reasonably responsible body like the Cork County Council are very concerned about the closing of the West Cork railway line. All Parties in the Cork County Council decided the best thing they could do was to seek an audience with the Minister for Transport and Power in order to discuss the matter with him. The Minister refused that. He did not see them. He referred them back to the people who had made the decision, Dr. Andrews and the Board of CIE. The Minister did not see fit to see the elected representatives of Cork County Council regarding the closing of their own railway line. Therefore, I consider I am not out of order in suggesting that people throughout the length and breadth of this country feel there is no use in having a Minister for Transport and Power.

When economies have to be made in various State-sponsored industries, people ask me why should we pay the salary of a Minister to the extent of about £3,700? Why should we do that when we were getting on just as well before his Department was set up at all? I have to explain to those people how Transport and Power was handled by the Minister for Industry and Commerce long before somebody got the idea of creating a new Ministry whose only function is apparently that he will not answer any question which a Deputy may raise in regard to transport. He says he does not want to interfere in the day-to-day activities of the State body concerned.

The view of the Labour Party is this: You could lawfully dispense with the Minister for Transport and Power and with his Ministry and we would be no worse off anyway. In fact, we would save some expense in that regard. The view of the people concerned, the view of the elected representatives and the employees in the State-sponsored bodies is that the Minister for Transport and Power is a luxury that we cannot afford at the moment.

I should like to be very dispassionate, as far as I can be, in my comments regarding the activities of this particular Department. It is not just coincidence that at the moment, in relation to the State-sponsored bodies, we had one strike last week by the CIE Road Passenger Department. We will have it again on Saturday and then we are told by the Minister's nominees, the Board of CIE, that after that there will be a lock out. We had a threatened strike in the ESB and we have just been barely able to hold the line in that regard. All light and power was to be cut off. There is a threatened strike by Bord na Móna which the Minister knows about quite well. There was a strike at Shannon and within the past week or so a strike at Aer Lingus in Dublin.

The Dáil should realise that it must be more than a coincidence that all these strikes, threatened strikes, and one-day stoppages, are in State-sponsored bodies over which the Minister for Transport and Power presides. The ordinary citizens of this country are saying there must be something wrong there. They are saying that such does not exist in the private enterprise section of our economy. It exists in all the State-sponsored bodies for which the Minister is responsible. I think this House is entitled to some explanation from the Minister as to why this is so.

In previous debates on the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power, I went to some pains to endeavour to convince the Minister and his predecessor of the value of good staff relations. I know the Minister has been advocating this himself but he has been preaching it to people to whom he has no responsibility, to managements of private enterprise. I have read many columns of the Minister's statements in this regard, saying how important it is, not alone for the relations between employers and employees but for the economy of the country that we should have good staff relations. However, staff relations in the State-sponsored bodies over which he has control just could not be worse than they are at the moment and that unfortunate malady reflects itself in the fact that we have strikes and threatened strikes in each and every one of them. I often wonder if the Minister ever sits back and asks why it should be so in all the firms he is endeavouring to run.

Then, of course, the peculiar situation occurs that when some national close-down is imminent, the Minister does not intervene at all but just passes the matter over to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. That is a situation I can never fathom. Perhaps the Minister would explain why it is that, in a situation where a trade union and a State-sponsored body get into a cleft stick, the Minister for Transport and Power is not the man who then intervenes but instead hands it over to the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I feel, I think, with justification, there is an absolute lack of communication, of consultation, between the managements of these State-sponsored bodies and the trade unions concerned. I hope I shall be forgiven if I pinpoint one of these companies.

Surely the Deputy is not trying to make things worse by commenting on what might yet right itself?

I am trying to make things better.

I do not think the Deputy will make things better if he continues along that line of argument. He should restrain himself as far as he can.

I shall be the judge of that. The Deputy is telling the Minister some home truths.

These matters might better be discussed when there is no conflict on at all.

We discussed them when there was no conflict and the Minister did nothing about them. Let us take the CIE organisation. During the passage of the Transport Acts, I think I was not unreasonable in my comments, as the Minister will see if he refers to the Dáil debates. I think I made quite constructive proposals as far as transport legislation is concerned. I went to great pains to advocate adequate communication and consultation between the management and the unions concerned. The fact is that we have not got that now. Let there be no doubt about it: there is absolutely no real consultation between the management and the CIE group of unions.

The Deputy is making mischief. That simply is not true. I beg him not to make matters worse by making wild statements that have no foundation.

I did not interrupt the Minister. I hope I shall get the protection of the Chair.

Every effort is made at all times by the management of CIE.

If the Minister will wait, I shall explain the matter to him. CIE say they are endeavouring to have consultations with the unions but does the Minister know that their idea of consultation is not the same as that of the unions or the workers? The consultation is this. They study the problem. They arrive at a solution. They then call the representatives of the workers and say, in effect: "We have decided to do so and so, and so and so, and so and so—A, B and C." When the representatives of the trade unions say, in effect: "Well, we think we could not carry on with B", the management say, in effect: "We have decided on that, anyway". I do not think that that is consultation in the Minister's mind. I do not believe for one minute that the Minister would back a scheme such as that where the management decide they will do something and just go along and tell the representatives of the workers that that is so. I would genuinely urgently press on the Minister to carry out a special investigation of the communication line and the consultation line between the managements of these industries and the trade unions and the workers on the floor, as far as they are concerned, when he will find that what I say is quite right.

The Minister referred at length to CIE. Certainly, the Minister is entitled to say and anybody connected with CIE is entitled to say—from the management down to the lad porter—that they are providing a rail transport service equal to none in Europe. Anybody who has been in Britain or on the Continent will readily concede that their service, their timing and particularly their buffet cars are away above anything that one would meet certainly on British Railways or on the French, Swiss or Italian railways. Indeed, their rolling stock is such that one can now scarcely distinguish between what was formerly known as the second-class—which is now known to be standard class—and the first-class. I think tribute should be paid to everybody concerned in that regard—to the Minister, to the officers of the Department, to the Chairman and board of directors down to the lad porter—for the service CIE are giving. I know there are occasions, particularly on bank holidays, when they cannot carry everybody they would wish to carry, but the fact of the matter is that, over the 52 weeks of the year, they give extraordinarily good service, and that is as we would wish it to be.

Having paid that tribute to CIE, I should like to direct the Minister's attention to another few matters in connection with that company. All of us know that the Board of CIE are charged by legislation of this House to make the company pay within a given period. In pursuit of that objective, the management quite naturally have had to examine their operations and take many steps which might be regarded as economy steps. No doubt this would have the approval of the Minister. Any steps towards economy in a State-sponsored body would be welcomed by the Minister and the House; but I should like to draw this to the Minister's attention. It appears that the people who are in control of CIE at the moment cannot see economy anywhere except among the very lowest category, in the conciliation grade, or in the clerical grade, or temporary workers grade. They are adept in sacking these people, while at the same time—and I know what I am talking about—there is an absolute increase in the executive grades—area managers, personnel managers and depot managers. There is scarcely anybody now, outside the conciliation grade in CIE, who is not a manager of some sort or another. I do not mind that. I do not mind modern working methods; I think they had to be introduced. But I am entitled to question the increase in the executive class of CIE, which happened simultaneously with the reduction in numbers of temporary porters, porters, guards, ticket checkers, and so on, in the conciliation grades.

The Minister knows quite well that, in so far as further redundancies are concerned, some of the people who may be deemed redundant because of the introduction of new methods will not be covered for compensation. I say this deliberately. This House went to a great deal of trouble to assist CIE in respect of people who became redundant, because of the closing of a branch line, because of the closing of a station, because of the introduction of dieselisation as against steam, or because of the introduction of new methods. They were to be declared redundant and paid, not by CIE but by the Exchequer. I supported that measure when it came before this House but I must say I got sick when I saw the manner in which it was implemented, and I would like to direct the Minister's attention to this. I am not directing anything I say personally against the Minister. The fact of the matter is people were declared redundant under that scheme through political influence. I shall repeat it; people were declared redundant under that scheme and compensated by the Exchequer because of political influence.

It is absolutely denied.

I can quote examples. I am not saying the Minister is personally aware——

The Deputy will have to accept my statement that I used no influence, directly or otherwise.

I accept the Minister's statement without reservation but I repeat, and repeat emphatically, that people who had less than a year to go to their normal retirement, got out because of political influence. They went out under the enhanced scheme of compensation. But if the fellow who happened to be a member of the Labour Party were redundant 50 times over, he would not be let out of it, even if he were redundant under the scheme passed by this House.

Where would the Deputy leave the man who is a member of the Fine Gael Party?

He would not have a chance at all. I should like the Minister to look into the allegations I have made. If he wishes, he can communicate with me and I shall give him the names and grades of the people to whom I am referring. I shall also tell him, if he wishes to know, the political source, his own political source, from which these people were sponsored in this connection.

The Minister devoted a lot of his time here today referring to CIE and its expanding economy. There is something which worries me. As we know, the clerical staff in CIE are being diminished monthly with the introduction of new office methods. Nobody can quibble about that. What worries me is that all new staff recruited by CIE are young girls. I should like to ask the Minister if he would inquire when had we an examination for male clerical officers in CIE? Would he go back over the past three, four or five years and see, of the staff recruited, how many were girls and how many were men. I think he will find an absolutely overwhelming majority of girls. I do not think the Minister will support the idea that as from now there is absolutely no entry into an organisation such as CIE as far as young boys with their leaving certificate are concerned. They are the backbone of the country, men who will be getting married, in three or four years, settling down and having homes of their own. That is finished.

Of course we have another system of recruitment in CIE, particularly in regard to the top executive jobs. Nobody inquires of course whether or not they have their leaving certificate or intermediate certificate. I do not know what standard, or yardstick, is applied in relation to these people. Again if the Minister wishes, I can reel off the names of the people who were brought into these positions through political pull, people who got into any department of CIE, whether the loco department, the permanent way department or the audit office, particularly the audit office. They instituted new schemes and upset men who were there for 20, 30, or 40 years as ordinary clerks. They were not there a year when their political friends found them better jobs elsewhere.

They lifted three or four railway lines in the meantime. Then they moved on.

Yes, they moved on. These are the gentlemen who advised the Chairman and the Board of CIE that the Waterford/Tramore railway should be cut off and that the Cork/ Bantry railway should be cut off. The unfortunate Minister then gets a file, comes in here and tries to convince this House, as he did in the West Cork case, that this is a sensible thing to do.

He will keep on doing it.

Then he finds that the very people who advised about these things are gone. They are working with Bord na Móna and advising something else there, or they are with the ESB.

The Minister should seriously consider taking this House more into his confidence. I do not think the Minister deliberately sets out to keep this House in the dark. I do not accept that for one minute, but I do think —and I say this with conviction— that he certainly should take the House more into his confidence. I think he knows our point of view well enough to be able to do that. We are all concerned with the future of transport in this country. The Minister should accept, as I accept his conviction, that we are all trying to do the best we can about it, but it is very difficult for some of us who are not on the Government side—I will not say in Opposition— when the Minister does not take us into his confidence, when he absolutely refuses to answer any question we put to him, or to be in any way helpful in regard to this matter.

There is another very important matter I should like to raise for the Minister's consideration. It is in connection with the road freight department of CIE. Naturally the road freight department is an integral part of the whole set-up. I know the Minister knows and his advisers know that the road freight department has not been earning money, has been losing money over a number of years. That is one of the difficulties a State-sponsored body like CIE have to put up with. Is the Minister aware that everyone connected with the road freight department, from the executives to the lorry drivers and lorry helpers, were called into the various management offices within the past few weeks and told that if the road freight department does not break line-ball, if it does not pay before a certain date in March, 1966, CIE will fold up their road freight department and, "You will be out of work".

I can assure the Minister this has happened. I am not unconscious of the difficulties the management of CIE may have to meet in regard to the road freight department, but I am very conscious of the fact that no one outside this House, no one outside this Oireachtas, can decide that they are going to denationalise our road freight service. It may well be that the Board of CIE can advise the Minister or advise the Oireachtas to do that. I cannot quibble with whatever advice they may give the Minister or the Government, but I certainly can take umbrage when any civil servant—and that is what any executive, or manager, or district manager is—calls in constituents of mine who work for this State-sponsored body, guaranteed by legislation passed in this House, and tells them: "If so and so does not happen, you will be out of work on 31st March next year."

I think the Minister will appreciate the point I am trying to make. I do not mind what stratum that civil servant is in; he is not entitled to anticipate legislation that may be passed by this House. I do not think there is any Deputy who would not jealously guard that privilege. No civil servant or semi-civil servant of any State-sponsored or semi-State-sponsored body is entitled to say to an employee: "If you do not do so and so, we will denationalise the road freight department of CIE." They did not say it in so many words, of course. They would not use the phrase, "denationalise the road freight service", but in effect that is what was said.

There is a fleeting reference in the Minister's statement to the position of Cork Airport. All of us who live in Cork, or who represent Cork, or have anything to do with Cork, are tremendously proud of the success of Cork Airport. When I say this, I do not say it simply to twit the Minister, but I had to laugh when I saw the Minister's reference to the success of Cork Airport. The Minister is the man who said we should not have an airport in Cork. Deputies of all Parties, including his own, were nearly driven crazy making representations to the Department over a number of years for an airport at Cork and we were told, particularly by the Minister, that it was unjustified, that there was no use for it, that it would not do well, and that it would lose money. I now have to go through the drill of listening to the Minister saying how successful Cork Airport is. However, we will get over that. Anyone can be wrong. Possibly the Minister made an error of judgment, or possibly his officials who churn out——

Deputy Casey has got his dates wrong about Cork Airport. He is speaking so irresponsibly that I will not answer him any further.

The Minister is going back to his old form of never answering anyone.

I was explaining to the Minister before he got annoyed that we are all very pleased with the success of Cork Airport, but that we think the Minister might be a little apologetic when he claims, or endeavours to claim, the kudos for the success of the airport. Having said that, I wonder would the Minister address himself to this facet of the operation of Cork Airport? He must know that some people allege there is discrimination against Cork Airport as against Dublin and Shannon. No doubt he will have noticed in recent weeks that people who were to have a fishing holiday in Fermoy were offloaded at Shannon, as if Cork Airport did not exist. There is no use in saying that Bord Fáilte did this. I believe there is some liaison between Bord Fáilte and Aer Lingus.

There is also the fact that anyone who goes to Cork Airport and pays his fare to fly so many miles, pays more per mile and per trip than the person who goes to Dublin Airport. What we in Cork cannot understand is why a fellow should have to pay more because he happens to fly from Cork than if he flew from Dublin a similar distance. People are getting fed up with this. The Minister is possibly aware that when we have such a grievance, we are not people who sit down under it. Possibly he is not aware of the allegations I make and I ask him to attend to the points I have raised in this respect. On the allegations I made in respect of CIE, if he wants names, addresses and other particulars, I shall make them available to him.

I have heard the Minister criticised because his introductory statement ran to 95 pages. To my mind, that should be a matter for congratulation because he has given us a mass of data and information on practically every State-sponsored undertaking the country has. To a new Deputy, anyhow, he brought new light and knowledge to help us in trying to assess what is right and wrong with the various State organisations.

In the first two paragraphs of his statement, the Minister mentioned that the conciliation machinery in the State companies is elaborate but that some changes might be necessary, as in the case of the ESB, and that that was being attended to by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. At the moment in one of our State companies, CIE, things are at a very dangerous pitch. Therefore, I must be careful not to say anything that would add to the problems facing both sides in the threatened weekend strike. I should like to say, however, that last Friday I saw people in the city, old people, working people, who had to trudge many miles to and from their jobs or from their homes to visit hospitals. They were all carrying out the normal duties of free citizens.

There were no bus services and the fault lies on either side. It is a sad reflection on our society that in 1965 in this country, in this city of 600,000 people, workers can be left without a public service. It was not the people who own Bentleys or Cadillacs who were affected: it was the ordinary people who have to work to earn a living. I plead not for mercy to be shown by either side in this dispute but that we would get back to some form of sanity. Each of us should try to help the national economy but we shall not do it without a sense of reality, without realising that unless the national cake is baked to a certain size, there will be very little for any one of us. It is up to all of us to do our best and it is from that background that I appeal to both sides to return to sanity and stop this thing happening. It will have to be faced eventually, so why not face it on Friday night next rather than Friday night three weeks?

One of the matters I am anxious to deal with on the Estimate is Irish Shipping Limited which has had one of the most difficult tasks of any of our State-sponsored bodies. The birth of Irish Shipping Limited was during the last war and the man who founded that company did more than establish a shipping line. He saved the country from great suffering during that difficult period and when the war ended and Irish Shipping decided to enlarge their fleet they ran into trouble. They made progress and while still a small line by comparison with Sweden or Britain, they continue to make progress.

There is, however, one cause for criticism. As far as I am aware, Irish Shipping have had practically none of their repairs carried out in Irish shipyards. The company have stated they have tried to get prices for repairs here down to levels they can afford. I understand the Verolme yard are prohibited from doing work which would compete with existing Irish shipyards. The Dublin Port and Docks Board have provided the most up-to-date graving dry yards in these islands at a cost of £2 million. It is very little used. The first ship to be repaired there belonged to Irish Shipping but since then I doubt if it has had any custom from this company.

When we enter the era of freer trade, we cannot put a tariff on ships built outside the country or on ship repairs carried out. What is needed is enough wisdom to get Irish Shipping and the Dublin Dockyard together to work out some scheme whereby the Dublin Dockyard would be guaranteed a certain amount of work each year. It could be done by some form of subsidy. Subsidies are not popular but through the type of co-operation I have suggested we could employ many hundreds of men in the Dublin dockyard with a guarantee of continuity of work.

The purchase this year of the B & I Line was a step forward. Since the foundation of the State we have had people advocating the establishment of our own passenger line to Britain in order to break the ring of rather hostile shipping interests. This was done overnight by the Minister and he deserves credit for the manner in which the operation was handled. We now have an Irish passenger shipping line, totally Irish owned, which will give good service to our people who wish to cross to Britain on holiday or on business.

Reverting to CIE, there is intense criticism of the Dublin city bus service. In a city of this size, there is bound to be criticism of a service of this type but many Dubliners believe they are paying for the provincial services. It is a big bone of contention. I believe the people of this city deserve a better service than they are getting. It is a difficult task but unless we strive towards perfection we shall get mediocrity instead of progress.

On the rail services, I should like to say that I travelled to the west last Sunday, to Knock, with 1,000 other Dubliners. The buffet service was excellent. Wonderful meals were served by a cheery, helpful staff. Everything on the trip was absolutely perfect and I must compliment the staff of CIE on having done a very fine job.

In regard to the ESB, I notice that in their new plans they are going to build a 120-megawatt station at Ringsend which is to be oil-fired. Could they not use native fuel? The oil perhaps may be more economical from the point of view of price but surely we could have either turf, or coal from the midlands, which evidently they cannot sell, used at the station. At least we should try to do something in this regard so that some of our native fuel would have a guaranteed market for years to come. Now that the ESB are no longer a struggling child, they should start paying their way to the Dublin Corporation because under the 1927 Act they do not have to pay rates to the Dublin Corporation on power stations in Dublin. This is grossly unfair to competitors in the fuel business who have to pay a colossal rates bill each year while competing with the ESB. When this review of rating takes place, we in the Corporation will have to press that the ESB be taken from their sheltered position and made to pay rates. The ESB pay rates on office buildings but not on power stations. I trust that the ESB will budget for this hefty increase which may take money from them but will help to ease the burden on the Dublin ratepayers.

I was a little overpowered by this document put before us by the Minister and I thought to myself that the Minister must have been delighted with it when he saw it in his office and probably said to himself: "This will give these fellows indigestion. They will never be able to digest it." On the few occasions on which the Minister answers parliamentary questions, he gives us so many statistics and so much data that we do not know what he is saying. Nobody could translate what is in the answer when eventually we get it. Here we have this 90-page document and I have to agree with what Deputy Casey said. Here is the Estimate from the Department of Transport and Power coming before the representatives of the sovereign people and I can count only two young men behind the Minister. Normally I am sure the corresponding Estimate in any Parliament would arouse an immense amount of curiosity and interest in all representatives but the Minister has created the image of himself as a Minister for Transport and Power who has no authority and no power in this Department and who; even if he had, would not use it. When we leave this House after these Estimates have been disposed of and if something arises in regard to Bord na Móna and some of our constituents come to us seeking information which we will ask of the Minister, he will refuse to give it to us. Yet year after year we are asked to vote millions and millions of pounds for the various sections of the Minister's Department to lose.

It is nice for people to be talking about air transport but we are losing an awful lot of money at Shannon, Cork and Dublin. We are told we must keep these up for prestige purposes. I was not going to mention my favourite subject, the Tramore Railway, but I will. We were told that this was losing about £3 million—not by the Minister, because the Minister gave us no information at the time—and that railway had to go, but we can spend millions and millions of pounds on other things. After the election I read in a newspaper that 14 or 15 new dynamos were coming on to those benches, new young members coming in, and now I can see only one young man there. They are not interested in transport and power, in Bord na Móna, the airports, the ESB, in CIE, or tourism, all facets of the Minister's Department. They have probably been reading the newspapers for the past four or five years and have come to the conclusion that there is not much point in coming in here to hear a brief like this or perhaps ask questions about it. The Minister should look to that in this age of image-makers and image-breakers.

Nearly all these bodies over which he is supposed to have control have public relations officers. These young men create the image. They are the experts; they are the men who write the reports for the high officers to read and to make recommendations on. The reports and recommendations are sent to the Minister and the Minister says OK, or perhaps he is not consulted at all. In any case, this House is never consulted and when Deputies endeavour to seek information regarding important matters in various sections of the Minister's Department, the Minister comes along with his usual reply. I have enough replies from the Ceann Comhairle telling me that my questions to the Minister for Transport and Power were being disallowed to paper a fair-sized room.

I do not order the Ceann Comhairle to do that. The Deputy knows very well——

The Ceann Comhairle is a man of some sagacity and he knows the Minister's form.

No, not at all.

He knows that the Minister's form is that he will jib and will not answer the question. If we ask any of the Minister's colleagues questions about matters relating to companies in which they are interested, or in which they are shareholders, or which, as the saying is, would be under those Ministers' Departments, they will give us the courtesy of an answer. I am not looking for this for myself. I consider that this is the sovereign Parliament——

On a point of order, the Deputy is suggesting that I have the Ceann Comhairle under my control in some way, that I have an undesirable influence on him and that he is not able to express rulings based on reading the statutes which promote and order the management of these companies.

The Chair has pointed out on more than one occasion that it does not take instruction from the Ministers. It rules on the facts before it.

I never implied that the Ceann Comhairle was ever influenced by any Minister. I am accustomed to this old trick of the Minister trying to set off a hare for me to follow but I am not going to follow it. I am going to stick the Minister down on this. This House is the Parliament of Ireland and the Deputies on all sides are the elected representatives of the people. We come in and vote on millions of pounds of the people's money and we must, and will, insist on having the right to ask questions about how that money is being spent. These questions will not be asked on this side one day when the Minister's Estimate comes before the House but on the occasion when perhaps damage might be done. We have the right to ask the Minister questions and we ask them sometimes for the Minister's information, because I am sure a lot of things are being done in these companies of which the Minister is never made aware and of which he should be made aware.

I have watched the Minister and studied his policy here and the Minister has bludgeoned his way through every debate and considered that he was always right. He is like the man in the "Chocolate Soldier"; he is never wrong. Deputies are advised by their constituents and they meet other Deputies who tell them their constituents think the same thing and one discovers there is a consensus of opinion in regard to a certain matter. But you find the Minister will have nothing to do with that, if you pin him down. The Minister, apparently, is guided by what I call the new executives. They put up something; they pass it on; and it reaches the top which may be very busy and is perhaps passed somewhere else. Eventually, it reaches the Minister and then it is going to be done. Next thing, it is a fait accompli. No Deputy or group of Deputies may come in and ask the Minister to discuss the matter; he will refuse to discuss it.

We have seen how the Minister bludgeoned his way along, where he brought about a state of affairs in which he ran out on a guarantee given by the Taoiseach when Minister for Industry and Commerce. That is in the Dáil debates. It was stated there would be full consultation. That statement was made by the Taoiseach as Minister for Industry and Commerce. There was no consultation. Deputies, members of county councils and corporations and representatives of the people were denied the right to see the Minister. That should never be and I think—to give the Fianna Fáil Government their due—it would not take place in any other Department. The Minister is noted for this.

We are always told about the wonders of these airports and the marvellous things they are. They are wonderful, but they are losing a good deal of money and I suppose we shall have to come here and vote it. They are no benefit to my constituency. I speak for my own people because my people were crucified because the Minister's Department could not afford to lose £3,000 a year. We can lose hundreds of thousands of pounds a year on the airports and it is all right. We can cater for 200,000 passengers at the airports but in regard to a small railway line catering for 550,000 in a year, the Minister would not see us. I have been coming in here for a long time and saying this: they dug up that small railway. They closed it on a Saturday and, against the wishes of the people, they tore it up on Monday in teeming rain and the Minister's minions——

It does not arise on this Estimate.

The Minister mentioned it in his Estimate speech and he is trapped in his own trap. I have it marked here. I am replying to him now. I do not know the number of the page on which this is. It could be page 98 because the pages are not numbered. He says:

To choose just one as an example, Tramore Development Association passed a resolution last year complimenting CIE on the very good services they provided. . . .

That was not a reference to the railways; it was to the bus service.

I want to compare that good service with the fine service they had, and I am entitled to do so. The Minister should take his medicine now. We were promised, on the word of the Taoiseach, that the alternative service would be as good: it is not as good and the amenities around it are not as good. I repeat that when they tore up this railway they were going to have the bus stop alongside the railway and CIE went in and smashed everything that was in the railway station.

What happened so many years ago surely is not relevant?

We are the people who remember what happened 700 years ago.

That is a good memory.

We were all bred that way, you and I.

Things may be interesting that are not always relevant.

The only time I will stop on this subject is when I can get the Minister to say mea culpa.

I am not interested in the Deputy's decision on this matter but only in keeping the House in order. Matters that occurred years ago are not relevant to a Vote which is confined to the year under discussion.

I shall put this to you: the Minister mentioned this here. I am comparing what happened——

The passing reference the Minister made surely does not justify the Deputy in going over the whole story of the closing of the Tramore/Waterford railway line.

It is obvious that the Minister brought this into his 90-page brief because he is still trying to justify himself. I should like to say in passing that I drove out of my native city last Sunday in glorious sunshine—I shall say more about that when I come to deal with the tourist section of this Department—and the road was littered with people, so to speak, pushing prams and accompanied by other children, people who should be in Tramore. With that, I shall leave it.

We have to say this: the people of Ireland were left without a bus service last week. We have the Minister for Transport and Power now in the House. There is a lot to be said for both sides in this case. We have the position of CIE about to lock out the men and we have the men taking up a very stiff attitude also. Is it not about time for the Minister to step in and do some part of his duty as a Minister of State in Dáil Éireann, elected by the people to represent the people, to see if he could get some reality into this dispute?

The Minister is, of course, proudly talking about the catering service. We have a splendid catering service with which we are delighted but we put an awful lot of money into it. Catering services are paying all over the country and why should this one not pay? I think we charge more for beer in any of the places where CIE are selling beer than anywhere else. At some CIE hotels, it would almost be cheaper to have champagne rather than call for a bottle of lager. We should show some good example in CIE State-owned hotels. The old GSR left behind them a good tradition in the hotels and I shall pay the compliment to CIE that they have maintained that tradition of good service, good furnishing and good cooking. I hope they will continue to maintain it but I think they should look to their prices.

I shall leave the Shannon Free Airport Development to somebody else.

I have been talking about railway lines, destruction, hotels and buildings and now I had better come down to the people, the forgotten people of this Estimate. The Minister proudly talks about his pension schemes for CIE workers. All right; that is good; we will compliment the Minister on it. But what about the men who came out before this pension scheme was brought into operation? What about the men who drove the trains for 40 or 50 years, who worked for small wages, for 16 to 18 hours a day, who drove the trains when there was a war going on in their own country, who drove them over dangerous bridges and dangerous tracks? I am speaking of men who brought the trains in on time in spite of great obstruction. These men drove the trains during the period of World War II when, thanks to Fianna Fáil, we had no fuel in the country. We have been talking about Irish Shipping. We had not one ship when the war broke out. The men to whom I have referred have been abandoned by the Minister. They had 12/- a week some time ago and they got a raise of about 1/9d. That will be an awful lot of good to them.

The CIE pensions fund is a very big and buoyant fund. The men to whom I have referred have been forgotten. I have brought their case before this House. Sometimes we were able to batter an answer out of the Minister. Sometimes, by some kind of subterfuge, we were able to get through a question which he had to answer. In the main, the replies given were to the effect that this was a matter of day to day administration and the Minister had no function. It was a very hard thing for these men to have to live from day to day on 12/6 a week. The days were very long for them.

As the Minister has not mentioned these men in this 94-page comprehensive brief, I would ask him to mention when he is replying what are the intentions of his Department towards these men. Are they still to be abandoned? There are only about 1,000 odd of them left.

I come now to the Tourist Board or, as we say, Bord Fáilte. The Tourist Board have done many wonderful jobs and carried out many wonderful promotions, often in spite of the Fianna Fáil Party and often in spite of the adverse propaganda that members of Fianna Fáil would spill out here in the House and maybe at public meetings and in public places. I remember one of them saying that there were people coming in from England and handing us pieces of paper for our fine Irish steaks. I have that on the record. The person concerned was promoted afterwards to be Parliamentary Secretary. In spite of that, the Tourist Board continued and did a good job. I approve of this whole business of improving the hotels and of giving grants for it. I approve of standards being raised in boarding houses. I approve of a great many of their promotions.

Now I want to ask the Minister a question. Bord Fáilte had a bureau in London. I believe the location of that bureau has been changed. Will the Minister tell us if that is for the good? I am informed that the bureau is now up a side street. I should like to say to the Minister and to the House—and a great many people do not like it to be said and I do not think it is mentioned in the Minister's brief—that most of the money that comes into this country from tourism comes in from Great Britain, the old enemy or the new enemy. London is the capital of Great Britain and it is a good thing to have the Bord Fáilte offices in a prominent position because many Irish exiles who intend coming home on holiday would like to discuss arrangements with their own people.

I congratulate the Minister on the concept of having regional tourism companies. In this connection, the head of the "cumann" is rising again and could ruin it. I find myself agreeing with Deputy Lindsay. He said that some of these companies were queerly constituted. The Minister may ask what else would I do but agree with my own Party man. In the debate on the Estimate last year, the former Deputy Briscoe was very irate about the way that some of these companies were constituted and, lo and behold, Deputy Corry rose and was very irate about it also. Therefore, the Minister will understand that I am not saying this merely to annoy him. The Minister has a chance now of mending his hand. If he will listen to me I will tell him the position and he can do whatever he likes. There will be elections next year. Will the Minister tell Bord Fáilte to keep their fingers out of these elections and let the people in the various counties elect their own companies and not to have any packing or prompting? The Minister will have a really magnificent machine for the promotion of tourism if that is done and if Labour supporters, Fine Gael supporters and Independents are not pushed off and people put on just because they support Fianna Fáil and have no qualifications to be on a regional tourism company.

As far as the promotion of festivals by Bord Fáilte is concerned, I have fault to find with it. I am speaking now about my own native city and constituency of Waterford. I receive advertisements from loyal supporters and sometimes irate Fianna Fáil supporters. Somebody was talking about festivals here. I suppose we should let every jug stand on its own bottom and let every festival stand on its own legs—big festivals, small festivals, good, bad and indifferent.

Do not forget An Tóstal.

I know all about that. About eight years ago a group of people in my native city started a festival of light opera. This festival has gone from triumph to triumph every year but it would be hard to find out where this festival took place if one looked at a national newspaper, at the advertisements sponsored by Bord Fáilte, or if in the past few years one looked in on television when the Bord Fáilte hand-outs were being broadcast. I mention this because the Minister is responsible for Bord Fáilte.

This great festival was never mentioned.

I want to refer to a famous Sunday, 23rd August, 1964. I mention this now because I had no opportunity of doing so during the whole year. If I had raised it by way of parliamentary question, I would have been told by the Minister that it was a matter of day-to-day administration and he could do nothing about it. Therefore, he will have to listen to it now. In the Sunday Times, The Observer and the Sunday Telegraph people were told it was festival time in Ireland : the Cork Film Festival, as Deputy Barrett will be delighted to note, was advertised as taking place from 13th September to 20th September; the Dublin Theatre Festival was to be held from 21st September to 4th October with such plays as: “Do You Know the Milky Way?” and “The Playboy of the Western World”. Then the Wexford Festival was advertised as taking place from 24th October to 1st November, staging “Lucia di Lammermoor”, “Much Ado about Nothing”, and so on. The Dublin Theatre Festival, the Cork Film Festival and the Wexford Festival are advertised here, and the headquarters of the Irish Tourist Office in England are given as 71 Regent Street, London. However, there was no mention of the Waterford Festival which commenced on 4th September. I am informed that it is the business of Bord Fáilte to see to it that if the weather is good in resorts, that fact be published. The best-kept secret of the last week-end was the glorious weather we had in Waterford and Tramore. I have a brochure here which says that British Railways will advise you how to travel to Ireland. There is mention of the Holyhead/Dún Laoghaire route. There is another advertisement here. Now we are getting into high-class advertising in the coloured supplement of the Sunday Times. This advertisement is inserted by the Irish Tourist Board Office in Great Britain. People are advised to travel to Ireland and, according to this, the only way one can get to Ireland is to travel to Dublin through Holyhead. It says you can easily find the scenery outside Dublin, that you can bring your cat or dog, that we hold quarantine to be inhumane——

That does not seem to be relevant.

I am referring to this because it says one can travel from Liverpool or Glasgow to Dublin but there is no mention of Rosslare or Waterford, and these advertisements are paid for by the Irish taxpayer. I would remind the people in Bord Fáilte that there will be another great festival in Waterford next September. I have been asking some of the officers about the dates, the bookings and the people who are coming. We went to Bord Fáilte about the promotion of the festival. We even suggested that they televise short excerpts of these shows on Telefís Éireann. It could not be done. It could be done for any other festival but not for Waterford. One of the Bord Fáilte men said to me: "The show might not be up to standard", but the show we were asking him to do was put on by the BBC for an hour and a quarter; yet we could not get three minutes from Bord Fáilte for the promotion of a great festival.

The Chairman of Bord Fáilte came to the Waterford Festival a few years ago and I asked him what he thought of it. Before a competent witness, he said: "This is the first festival I have ever attended where I heard so many outside accents." All the hotels were full and everywhere one went there were visitors from South Wales, from England, Newry and other places in the North. It was good to hear the Minister talking about co-operation. As a result of co-operation, people came from Newry to the Waterford Festival and won. This festival should not be neglected because it brings many people from England to Ireland who had never been here before, and these people will come at other times of the year for their holidays.

This is the great breakthrough. Now most of the groups which come here come from the big industries and factories in Great Britain in parties of 200 to 250. They told me that French interests had been sending people around the factories to get in touch with the shop stewards for the purpose of making package deal tours. I make the Minister a present of that. We have an enormous amount of goodwill in Wales and in Great Britain generally. An enormous number of our own people are working there. Many of them are shop stewards. If officials of the Tourist Board visited these factories in the same way as commercial travellers go around selling their wares, and distributed literature and talked to people in clubs and so on, telling them they were getting up package tours to——

Mr. Barrett

Waterford.

——Ireland, and Waterford, of course. We have our Parliamentary responsibilities. We want to see the Tourist Board a success. We want to see the number of tourists increase.

When the Minister comes to reply I hope he will tell me what steps he will take to ensure that the things we promote in Waterford will be advertised. There is plenty of time now and no one can say he was not told in time. For the past number of years we have been telling the Minister six and eight months in advance, and all to no purpose.

I give Aer Lingus full marks. There it is tremendous esprit de corps where the staff are concerned. They are courteous and considerate. Some of the countries that get the greatest volume of tourist business do not have the same reputation. The staffs are impertinent and insulting. That is true of both France and Spain. I could develop that if I wanted to, but I want to put it on record that I compliment Aer Lingus. However, I have one complaint to make about the public address system. It distorts the voice. Not satisfied with my own judgment I asked some friends what they thought about it and they said they did not know what was being said. We were in a different plane coming back and the distortion was just as bad.

I have asked the Minister some questions and, when he comes to reply, I hope he will answer them. If he does not do so I will ask you, Sir, to let me question the Minister and, if he does not reply then, I will table parliamentary questions and I will expect the Minister to answer them.

Having "Listened with Lynch" for the past threequarters of an hour, I hesitate to bring the House back to the business of this Estimate. I regret that Deputy Lynch has availed of the opportunity to speak on this Estimate to display his ability as a comedian. However, I do not propose to discuss his prowess in that regard. There are a few points I wish to raise. A major development scheme was laid down by Bord Fáilte for the Salthill area. This was announced nearly three years ago. There was great jubilation in Salthill when the plans were announced but, since then, only a fraction of the sum mentioned has been spent. I should like the Minister to tell us what the position is and what we can expect in the near future. It is very important that this money, which has been allocated, should be spent. I understand the sites are now acquired. There may be some difficulty holding up progress. I trust the Minister, when he comes to reply, will give us some information with regard to Salthill.

With regard to the riverside development scheme, it must be now seven or eight years since that was discussed, but nothing has been done so far.

As secretary of an organisation, I had occasion some years ago to consult with the officials of Bord Fáilte and they were quite explicit in assuring me they could not possibly subscribe towards a tourist project to be built in the city of Galway. Since then they have spent money on Eyre Square. That was a wise expenditure resulting in a beautiful development. The railings were removed and a modern park laid out with improved parking facilities for cars. But why was I told some years back that Bord Fáilte could not spend money in Galway city; expenditure could take place only in Salthill? Now they have done this wonderful job on Eyre Square. I refer to the provision of an indoor swimming pool to be built halfway between Galway and Salthill. Bord Fáilte would have been very keen to assist if it were built in Salthill. I fail to see any difference. It is Galway-Salthill and not just Salthill. I should like the Minister to tell us what plans Bord Fáilte have for subscribing to the provision of this amenity at our biggest—I say this without fear of contradiction—and our best seaside resort.

Deputy T. Lynch referred to weather reporting. I raised this with the Minister and I had a satisfactory reply, but I should like to take this opportunity of airing my views publicly. I ask him to do his utmost to ensure that a meteorological station is built in Galway. It is unutterably frustrating to the hundreds employed in the tourist trade in Galway-Salthill to read the inaccurate weather reports for the area. The Minister agrees that part of the responsibility for this lies in the fact that the nearest meteorological station is at Claremorris, over 30 miles from Galway. Claremorris has a very small population as compared with Galway. It would be a good investment in the future of the tourist trade in Galway to ensure accurate weather reporting.

There is a further fact. I feel Bord Fáilte should have a certain responsibility for the reports which appear in the newspapers about the weather in different places. Mention has been made here of the fine weather in Cork and Waterford. I pick up the newspaper on Monday morning after a sweltering week-end in Salthill to read about the weather in six or seven resorts but there is not a mention of the premier and most progressive resort in Ireland. One would think we did not exist. This is a resort which benefited to the extent of £1,500,000 from the tourist industry last year. I would ask Bord Fáilte to take an interest in the matter and ensure that the proper reports appear in the newspapers. I understand that the way the Irish daily newspapers get these reports is to ring up the Garda barracks in Galway to inquire what kind of weather we had and whether many people visited the resort. They get a very hazy report, something to the effect that there were a lot of people there because of the hurling match between Clare and Galway. I can assure the House and the newspapers that Galway would have been packed even if there were never a hurling match on. That only added to the crowd.

There is another matter I should like the Minister to investigate. I have been told this, but have not experienced it myself. I have been told that the excursion rate from Galway to Dublin is more than the excursion rate from Dublin to Galway. The reference there is to an excursion on Sunday to a football match in Croke Park. The Galway men had to pay more money for their return trip than the people who came down to Galway on the day excursion from Dublin. It seems strange that we should be victimised and charged more money for the same journey.

I should like the Minister to say why the concession for the relatives of Aer Lingus staff was recently discontinued. Everybody knows this concession was available, but it was available only where seats were vacant. They were available to these people on the understanding that they would go on "stand-by". The concession has been withdrawn and the seats will still be vacant. I wonder where the added expense comes in? These people were paying ten per cent of the usual fare which would seem to be a better proposition than leaving seats vacant.

I should like to compliment Bord Fáilte on the wonderful work they have done on the lakes of Connemara. This work has been going ahead quietly but with great progress and wonderful co-operation by Bord Fáilte with the angling associations in Galway. I refer to the erection of piers on the Connemara lakes.

Mr. Barrett

I do not intend even to attempt to recriminate so brilliantly as Deputy T. Lynch did about the destruction of the railways in his area, because I do not think you, Sir, would let me get away with it. However, there is an interesting sidelight to it. If half the energy, imagination and expenditure shown in regard to the building of our roads had been shown in our approach to our railway problem, we would have a fully effective railway system operating in this country still. As I say, I do not intend to recriminate about that. I simply mention it with a view to suggesting to the Minister that as far as possible our existing truncated railway system should be maintained so that there will not be any further extra pressure on our roads with the inherent dangers attaching to it.

I was interested in the Minister's remarks regarding the development and use of nuclear energy for electricity generation. He said rapid technological advances have taken place in that field. There is no doubt about that. The Minister should underline to the ESB or any other persons who might be interested the importance of keeping up to date on these matters. The Minister said it seemed unlikely that a nuclear generating station would be an economic proposition in our circumstances for another ten years or so. Some people who know more than the Minister about that particular aspect informed me that that is rather backward thinking. If the Department of Transport and Power were up and about their business in that matter, we would advert much more to the possibilities of nuclear generation.

The Minister mentioned also that the establishment of a nuclear energy board to advise the Government on nuclear matters generally is being considered. I would suggest that consideration should be expedited to the greatest extent possible. When a Department state that they are considering a thing, it might mean anything. I am suggesting that that dreadful word "considered" used by Government Departments should be obliterated. They may say they are taking action or doing something, but not, for goodness sake, that they are considering it. Every Deputy knows if he is told by a Minister he is considering something, it means he will get a final reply in anything from two to seven months. If the Department are to be taken to be considering this matter, it might be four or five years before this board is set up.

When the Department have considered it, as quickly as possible I would suggest the Department should pick the best young Irish brains they can find in that regard. There are some very fine young Irish men and women in American universities and elsewhere building up for themselves an immense reputation in nuclear research. I do not know if the Government have any list of these people or are taking any steps to encourage young people to interest themselves in our nuclear problems. I greatly fear, as often happens in this country, that instead of attracting our own young people, into whose education and upkeep we have poured money, we will have some foreigners coming simply because their names are not Murphy, McCarthy or O'Brien. I would appeal to the Minister, in regard to membership of this board and in regard to the technicians brought in to deal with nuclear problems, that first preference be given to young Irish men and women.

If the Minister's Department apply to the constituent colleges of the National University and Trinity College, I am sure they will get a list of names sufficient to fill all their needs for the foreseeable future. I trust, when we come to set up a nuclear energy board, it will not be set up on political lines and that the members will not simply be called to the board because of their membership of some cumann or because they did some Party service. Nuclear energy is something for the future. Nuclear energy is something for which we should get the best brains of the country. If we can get away from the old Government idea that boards are places where good faithful Party servants rest their heads in relative comfort until they are called to the bosom of their fathers, then there is some future for nuclear energy in this country.

I want to congratulate the Minister on the manner in which the Shannon Development Company Limited have dealt with their housing problem. I am sure the Minister will pardon me if I ask why it is that in Shannon magnificent new houses have grown up overnight—many of these houses are occupied by non-nationals—while in Dublin, Cork and Limerick and various other centres, where industries also flourish, people are still living in hovels? I do not understand why the Department of Transport and Power should have some special advocacy in this matter. I congratulate the Minister on being able to do it because I do not understand how this happens. I do not think the citizens of Dublin, who are living in converted military barracks, the citizens of Cork who are living in unhealthy, filthy slums, or the citizens of Limerick, who are living in very close proximity to the very fine houses at Shannon Airport, will ever understand why this magnificent half-city, half-town can rise from virgin ground whereas conditions in Cork, Dublin and Limerick are so bad.

One particular matter I should like to raise on this Estimate concerns Irish International Airlines. Every year, for the past three years, I have done a short tour in the USA. The purpose of this tour is primarily to attract people to come to Ireland. Irish International Airlines, on the first two occasions, cooperated with the people who sponsored my trip over there. This year, however, for the larger part of the trip the co-operating airline was Trans World Airlines. The reason for this was not lack of patriotism on my part or the part of my sponsors but simply because Irish International Airlines are, for all practical purposes, sold out. It is practically impossible to get accommodation on our transatlantic services.

This is an amazing thing because it also applies in the off-tourist season traffic. When I flew out, I went from Dublin to Shannon in an Irish International Airlines plane and there were approximately eight to 12 empty seats at that time, March, on the plane that took off ahead of mine. There were very few people on the Trans World Airlines flight. I hope whatever I did over there will help to increase the number of passengers on the Trans World Airlines. This airline has connections to all parts of the USA. We want people to come from all parts and not only from the east coast.

The thing that really concerns me is this. While we can boast of a tremendously high load factor, this indicates one thing to me, that is, that we have not got enough planes in service. I know the big jet airliners are very expensive commodities but I am told, according to American ideas, when your load factor exceeds 55 per cent, it is time to put on another plane on that route. I believe our load factor runs up near the 90 per cent mark so, in effect, Irish International Airlines are turning people away.

I believe this problem also exists on the Dublin-London route and on some of the European services. I expect this will be overcome when the fleet of Viscounts, which we are buying from another European airline, come into service. There is very little doubt that a great number of people would travel from the midwest, which is where each of my trips was mainly located, if Irish International Airlines had connections there. They would be very happy to travel on our airlines if there were a flight from Chicago. This would be an obvious centre for them to take off from. I heard two years ago there was a proposal to inaugurate a flight Chicago-Montreal-Shannon-Dublin. The reason this flight never went into service is, to my mind, that we have insufficient planes. I should like to hear from the Minister if he agrees with my point of view on this. I should like to hear if there are any proposals to increase the amount of rolling stock which we have in order to operate flights to the midwest.

It is a very nice thing, from the company's point of view, that our airlines should have such a very high passenger load but it places a great strain on the crew and it may in some cases tend to make them a little less friendly than they usually are. I am particularly interested, on account of doing promotional work of this kind, in seeing that as many as possible of the people who come across here from America fly by Irish International Airlines. Many of the people who have flown on our airline have told me that as soon as they get into the airplane, they are out of the USA before the plane takes off when Irish music is played on the recording machines and they hear the Irish accents of the crew on the plane. They find the atmosphere much nicer than in any other airline. I should like to hear the Minister's comments on this matter. I should like to see two or three more Boeings go into service. I know there might be practical reasons for not having these extra planes but I think the matter should be considered.

I too, like the other Deputies who have spoken, must be critical of the closure of branch lines in my part of the country. It is extraordinary, as Deputy T. Lynch and other Deputies pointed out this afternoon, that when we put down a question to know why these branch lines are closed, we get a type of stock answer that the Minister has no responsibility in the matter. I had the experience of receiving a letter from the Ceann Comhairle pointing out that my question could not be allowed in this House. It seems to be an extraordinary situation in the Dáil, our national Parliament, which was established by so much blood, sweat and tears, that in the year 1965, that is the type of answer we must get. It is extraordinary that we should get that type of answer when we consider that this House votes so much of the people's money to keep such services as we have going. I really cannot understand it. I can assure the Minister that the people outside cannot understand it either.

I want to refer to the closure of the Foxford branch line, serving Claremorris and on to Ballina, which was unique in that it was paying. In Foxford, there is a very important industry which was founded there long before we got native Government and without any Government assistance. The Foxford Woollen Mills relied in the main on Foxford railway station for the transportation of goods from those mills where about 250 people are directly employed apart altogether from the indirect employment afforded. For a short time before the line was closed, it was known that that action was contemplated and the Local Development Association took up the matter with CIE. Every citizen in the area was worried about the serious effects which would follow from the closure of that branch line.

The town of Foxford has a population of 1,000 and they realised the seriousness which closure of the branch line would entail for their woollen industry as well as for business people in the town and surrounding area. In spite of all their efforts and protests, and in spite of the fact that the line was paying, CIE closed it and ignored all the representations and the pleas of responsible citizens to leave it open. We are told that this is a democratic country. We hear about the freedom of the citizen and of the blessings and amenities we enjoy. Nevertheless, that type of thing can happen right under our eyes.

As a business man of long standing, I have had some experience of CIE. I believe—I have said this before and it is on the records of the House—that if private enterprise were allowed to transport some of the goods which CIE carry, it could make that operation pay. I want to tell the Minister as I told his predecessor, the present Taoiseach, that I made money by carrying my own goods when CIE could not make it pay. I exported perishable goods. It was my experience, when we gave those goods to CIE to carry and loaded them at the railhead, that on some occasions they pulled up not at a railway station but in a bog area or at some town such as Moate, perhaps, and left the perishable goods of many people to rot if the goods train stayed there long enough. The merchants exporting those goods would be at a loss and could even be put out of business. Naturally, as business people, we could not tolerate that type of nonsense. My answer to it was to put on my own transport.

I can tell the Minister a story about the carrying of one type of goods which CIE claimed they could not make pay. I put on a new truck to carry my goods to Dublin and in 3½ months that truck stood in my yard, out of debt, on the transportation of those goods. I could do that because I made sure that I brought the most efficient methods possible to bear on the handling and transportation of my goods and delivered them personally on many occasions at the North Wall.

If I were allowed to engage in the transportation of much of the goods in my area, and if other people were allowed to transport those goods, it would be possible to make money on the transaction by bringing our knowledge and experience and efficiency to bear on running the service. So long as we continue the policy of giving blank cheques to CIE or to anybody else just because they say they cannot make the service pay we may be sure that they will not make it pay. That position will obtain so long as the Irish taxpayer is ready to foot the bill every time the business goes on the rocks.

I advocated here long ago a policy of making CIE smaller. In some of our towns, we have experience of private haulage which is not on a large scale. I know some of the people involved. I know them at Ballina and at Achill. Those private hauliers with limited plates can make the carriage of goods profitable. They can employ labour at comparable rates with CIE and make a success of the business. CIE do not seem to bother whether or not the service pays. All they need do is to send the bill to the Irish taxpayers, through this House, and let them foot the bill. The extraordinary thing about it is that the Minister who is charged with responsibility for the Department tells us that he cannot interfere with the day-to-day affairs of the company. That is a most extraordinary and disgraceful situation and it should not be allowed to continue. I do not think it would be allowed to continue in any other civilised country.

Having said all that, I appreciate that transport companies generally, not alone in this country but outside it, have a problem. There is a big change in travelling trends. However, while appreciating the existence of those problems, I am convinced that they are not insurmountable. I believe that the way to deal with the problem is to make CIE smaller and to avail of private companies. Some years ago, we had private companies in different centres and they made a success of the business. If private companies were given a slice of the business even for a short time we could see for ourselves if they could make it pay and my honest opinion is that they could. We would have some opposition rather than this monopoly whereby CIE have almost the whole business to themselves. We should then have a healthy kind of competition.

I am satisfied that there are many people in different areas in this country who handle limited transport efficiently and economically and give as good service as CIE. As I say, I realise that there are problems. Branch-lines are closed in England and even in Continental countries. The sad point in this instance is that while CIE argue that they close lines because they are not economic they closed the branch line in my area although it was a paying proposition.

There is another matter to which I should like to refer, the position of the people in the Ballina and Foxford areas. They are, as the Deputy representing Galway city said a few moments ago, paying increased transport fares. If you want to go from Ballina to Dublin now, you must take the bus at Ballina and go via Foxford, Swinford, Kiltimagh and on to Claremorris. You cannot go direct to Dublin. You can go only as far as Claremorris and get another ticket there to take you to Dublin. For that ticket you have to pay an excessive charge which is in excess of the normal rate, because it is a broken ticket and a double ticket has to be issued.

The people in my area in North Mayo feel it is most unfair that a company which has a monopoly of the transport services should treat passengers in that way. I wish to register a strong protest against it and I wish to ask the Minister to look into this matter. Our people in the west are entitled to the same facilities and the same transport rates as people in other areas. I admit, as most Deputies admitted here this evening, that, generally, the rail services are better, where they remain. The carriages are improved, the catering facilities are much improved and there are many improvements in the services generally. God knows, all that was long overdue.

I have travelled in parts of England and I feel, having travelled by rail and bus there, that, by and large, our transport system here is as satisfactory and as good as the British rail service, with the exception of the closing of the branch lines problem.

The tourist industry, Bord Fáilte and tourist organisations generally have been mentioned. I have travelled around the west of Ireland and all around the country. I know the city of Dublin well and the west of Ireland. In the course of my business, I call to the biggest hotels and I have experience in dealing with proprietors and managers. I am convinced that we in the west of Ireland are getting a raw deal, with the possible exception of Galway city. It is true there is an overflow of tourists to Galway city which is a boom city at the present time as far as tourism is concerned. Galway city is not able to cater for the overflow of tourists which could be spread out into the Connemara country, right on to Oughterard and Clifden. This is a region of smallholders and from the point of view of scenery, it is magnificient countryside. One would not find better in any part of the world and the people are friendly and kindly.

I do not grudge Galway city tourist business, but when one goes in a more northerly direction, towards Ballinrobe, Castlebar, and more especially towards Ballina, and Enniscrone in County Sligo, one finds that very little attention seems to be paid, by way of advertising or propaganda, to tourism in that part of the country. The propaganda I have seen in hotels, and issued by Bord Fáilte from time to time, by way of advertisement seems to ignore the fact that there is wonderful scenery in the Ballina, Enniscrone, Crossmolina, Castlebar and Belmullet areas. Mayo County Council, of which I am a member, have always been generous towards tourist organisations. They realised that if these organisations were to be a success it was vital that they got the necessary financial assistance. Long before some of the counties who have now benefited from Bord Fáilte were considered, Mayo County Council contributed towards the promotion of tourism. The Minister should appreciate that we in the west have a particular problem, the problem of the smallholders leaving the land. If we could encourage more tourists into the different areas I have mentioned, there would be a source of seasonal employment for many of our people who need it badly.

There is no doubt that the hotels are in the areas to which I have referred —Castlebar, Ballina, Enniscrone, Crossmolina, and other centres—but, unfortunately, for a month, six weeks or perhaps two months of the year, we see few tourists there. We have a wealth of fishing lakes in that part of the country. We have Lough Conn and Lough Coolin, to mention the most important. There is a lake at Callow and there are dozens of others which could be developed. The coarse fish have been removed from Lough Conn and Lough Coolin but enough is not being done with those lakes which have a natural potential for the production of trout. They are a wonderful attraction for the angler and that fact is known to many British people who come there annually to fish. If we get more help by way of publicity, and help in re-stocking these lakes, these areas would greatly benefit.

A survey should be made by Bord Fáilte to find out whether or not the facilities are available. I am afraid whenever the officials of Bord Fáilte go to these areas making inquiries, they leave quickly and do not take the trouble to find out what facilities are available. The hotels and other amenities are there and an attempt should be made to encourage tourists to come to the areas I have mentioned.

Reference has been made to shipping, shipping lines and the airlines. The Minister has some responsibility in this regard. I think he has often been described as the Minister for "no transport and no power". He has some transport and a little power to use it. In connection with ports, I should like to point out to the Minister that we have a port in Ballina and a port in Westport and one in Newport and that these ports were used some years ago. Unfortunately, with the exception of Galway, little money is being made available to these ports which are entirely neglected. If these ports got a chance and their harbour facilities were improved, congestion in Dublin port would be eased and employment would be given to local people who could find work at the dockside in their own locality.

I have often had the experience in Dublin of trying to get down to the North Wall. Unless one is there at 8.30 a.m., one cannot get out of the place until after lunchtime. There is serious congestion in the city and at the port of Dublin. If the western and southern ports, and the port to which Deputy T. Lynch referred this evening in his part of the country, were given consideration for development, I think it would be to the benefit of the national economy and would result in smoother running of shipping.

Some people seem to be above in the moon when they talk about tourism. They talk as if we had millionaires from all over the world coming here to wine and dine and stay a while but the majority of what we call tourists are our own people, our own kith and kin who went to England, America, Australia or some other far off place some years ago, to try to help their fathers and mothers, their brothers and sisters at home in Ireland. I must pay them the compliment —and I pay it because I have had the experience of cashing their cheques or their money telegrams—of saying that they have sent millions of pounds of money to this country over the years in dark and difficult times and they still do. They send money at Christmas and Easter, and some of them send the money week after week to help their aged parents and their brothers and sisters to keep going, or perhaps, to educate a member of the family. In some cases they send the money for a church, but in a thousand and one ways they have helped out their families.

The vast majority of what we call tourists are those kind of people, and when they come home and set foot on Irish soil at Shannon or Dublin or some other centre they find that they are fleeced and overcharged in many of our hotels. That is disgraceful. For the greater part of my life I have had to rely on hotels and catering houses of one kind or another for accommodation because I spend so much time on the road. I sometimes stay three or four nights a week in this city. I know the cost of foodstuffs, perhaps, better than many others in the House and I notice there is a trend towards overcharging. A certain crowd of people who are going into the hotel business are actually ruining it. I do not want to generalise. I do not say that everyone engaged in this business is a mean person and overcharges for the goods and services he provides, but I do say there is a certain type of what I might call Johnny-come-lately who does not care what bill he planks in front of you, if he can get away with it.

The Minister should try to impose some type of control on those people because they are ruining the industry by overcharging, and in many cases they are putting up a poor article, or, perhaps, badly cooked food in spite of their hotels having a luxurious appearance on the outside. I have experienced these things. I like a good meal and a good bed, and I do not grudge paying a reasonable price. The Government seem to favour bringing in foreigners to establish hotels. They help them out in every way.

I met a man in a small town quite recently who had established a nice guesthouse through the hard work of himself, his wife and members of his family. He tried to get some help from Bord Fáilte but he did not get it. They were not inclined to help him as if he were a black man or a leper. If someone comes from Paris or New York and goes on with a lot of boloney and wants to set up a big hotel, Bord Fáilte are ready to help him. He then proceeds to overcharge, and to rub it into our own people. That type of thing must be controlled and the quicker it is done the better. I want to repeat that I do not include everyone in that category. There are some very decent people in the catering trade. They should be in that trade and they are an asset to the tourist industry as a whole. In the long run they are the people who will be in business when the other types have gone out of it, because they will drive themselves out, but in the process they are injuring our important tourist industry.

In considering giving help to hotels and guest houses the Minister should consider most favourably the modest type of guesthouse which can provide decent comfort and good facilities at moderate prices. That type of guest house is highly desirable and it is in the best interests of the tourist industry as a whole. It caters for the ordinary working people who come from England who are in my opinion the best tourists of the lot. For 12 months they save up for their holiday and they come here with perhaps £100, and they are prepared to splash it all. They do not want to take back one penny. If they are treated fairly and provided with moderate comfort, a degree of cleanliness and good plain food, they are the best type of tourist that can be got.

The activities of Bord na Móna have also been referred to and the Minister has some control over Bord na Móna. I appeal to the Minister to provide another briquette factory in the Erris area. Briquettes have become very popular in our part of the country. We find some difficulty in getting a supply of briquettes in the North Mayo area. From time to time they are rather scarce, and their price has gone up. The vast area of bog outside Crossmolina right across to Belmullet has been developed for the production of electricity. In that area there is still a sufficient acreage of bog to provide material for another briquette factory. It amazes me to learn how many ordinary people in rural areas have gone over to using briquettes in their homes. They find them economical and clean. Moreover, people realise they are an Irish product whose manufacture gives excellent employment to their neighbours.

There is no doubt it is much to the credit of Bord na Móna that they have been able to market a product that can sell in competition with all other fuel products not alone within the State but outside the territory of which we have control. Briquettes are used extensively in the northern counties. Some time ago I was in Newry and was amazed to see the numerous lorryloads of briquettes crossing the border. I appeal to the Minister, therefore, to urge Bord na Móna to establish another briquette factory in the area of which I have been speaking. If they do not like coming down there, I suggest the Minister might give them a well-directed push to do so. We have the raw material there and, with a guaranteed local market, the scheme would benefit not only the people of Erris but Bord na Móna as well. They are assured of a local market. Our county institutions—council offices, the mental hospital, the county hospital—are using briquettes for day to day fuelling of their heating equipment, and there is still an expanding market there.

With my colleagues in Dublin South-West, I suppose I can speak as a disinterested person as far as tourism is concerned. In that part, we are unique in not having a single hotel of any kind or description— Grade A or any of the lower grades of which the Minister appears anxious to have greater numbers. I feel sure Deputies from other parts will wonder that there is any constituency in the country without a hotel. It is the doubtful privilege enjoyed by us in Dublin South-West. So if there are any entrepreneurs, such an opportunity presents itself in Dublin South-West, where the amenities are certainly very scarce and I have reason to believe there would be a prospect of profit from the provision of bed accommodation and other facilities which only hotels can provide.

The Minister made reference to a section in his Department concerned with the more efficient use of fuels. In the last few days, a complaint has been made that one of the reasons for a drop in the consumption of Irish anthracite is the lack of care in storage of the mined anthracite as a result of which it is supplied in a damp condition which prevents it being fed automatically into boilers. If this is so, it is most unfortunate. I am led to believe that a result of this inefficiency is that some users of solid fuel boilers have had to give up using Irish anthracite and have gone over to using Welsh anthracite or have reverted to oil or some other form of heating instead.

This problem is becoming worse. It could be that Irish anthracite is being kept in storage too long because of lack of use. If this is a possible solution to some of the problems with which the Irish anthracite industry is faced, it is hoped the Minister's Department will take the necessary steps to ensure that anthracite is made available in good, clean, dry condition. I am informed that if this is done, rather than having a reduction in the number of boilers at present fed by Irish anthracite there would be an increase. That seems a simple solution.

Deputy O'Hara referred to the port of Dublin and the amount of congestion there. It occurs to me there is another problem to which the Minister ought to direct his attention. There has been an abuse in recent times whereby a number of private concerns have been imposing their own particular penal levies on goods in transit through the port. There are many users of the port who are unable to get their goods away from the docks, not due to any inefficiency on their part but to the congestion in the port, to the lack of facilities and the very poor access routes to the port.

The result is that several carriers through the port have been unable to get the goods under their care away from the port quickly. Notwithstanding that, in addition to having to pay penal levies for delays for which the port authorities are directly responsible, several shipping companies are imposing their own additional levies and this is having the effect of increasing the cost of the passage of goods through the port. It is a private tax imposed by private interests who do not provide any benefits for this tax. It is a type of private law which the Minister should see is brought to an end without further delay.

The tourist industry is expanding and a certain amount of self-satisfaction appears to exist on that account. It seems inevitable that tourism will expand here as it is expanding elsewhere in this region of the world. What is significant is that our rate of expansion is very much slower than that of any country associated with OECD. They are the type of figures we should be looking at. We should not be satisfied with the progress we may be making, with the fact that the number of people coming here to spend holidays is increasing, because that is a trend developing all over Europe and North Africa.

We should be concerned with why we are not enjoying a percentage increase similar to the average enjoyed by other countries. In this respect, there are 16 countries higher than ours and very few, like Turkey and a few Middle Eastern countries, lower. But it is a matter of great concern that, notwithstanding the tremendous amount of expenditure and effort in which this country has been involved, in recent times we have been unable to keep pace with the inevitable increase in tourism. One of the most encouraging signs of expansion in tourism is to be found in a very small sector of tourist activity, that is, in our inland waterways. I was delighted to see from the Minister's speech that the number of cruisers on the River Shannon has risen from two in 1960 to 70 in 1964. If we had a similar expansion in other sectors of tourism as we had in that area we would have reason to pat ourselves on the back.

I hope that the Minister, if he has not already succeeded, will yet succeed in persuading the local authorities and any other bodies which may be considering closing the sections of the Grand Canal passing through Dublin that it would be a disastrous thing to do from the point of view of our inland waterways. In 1960 many people endeavoured to persuade the Tourist Board and others that the waterways had a great tourist potential. They were regarded as cranks, misfits, people who should not be listened to, idealists or people who wished to ride their own hobby horse but who were out of touch with modern trends. The experience of a short five years has indicated that the forecasts made by these people in 1960 were entirely justified.

It is suggested by some people that the expansion of tourism and water and boating facilities on the Shannon would not be impaired if CIE were to take over the transport by land of boats from Dublin to the Grand Canal to whatever point they would be allowed to proceed without being under cover. I am informed, however, by people who know something about boats that boatmen treasure their boats and that what they abhor above all else is the carriage of boats by land. It is something which any boatwright will tell you is not good for the boat. Boats are moulded in a particular way; they are built in a certain fashion and can be damaged by the physical handling and the vibration they must receive while passing over land. If we close the pipeline from the port of Dublin to the Grand Canal many tourists who would be prepared to bring their boats from Britain to sail them on the Shannon will not bring them and we will discourage the future expansion of this traffic on the Shannon. Having regard to the rate of expansion which has occurred in the Shannon area over the past five years, there is reason to believe that the Shannon may yet become as thickly populated with boats and cruisers as many of the rivers in Britain are at present. If this happens the need to maintain the Grand Canal and the Barrow and other waterways will be greater than ever before.

There are many people who would wish to boat on the Shannon in summertime and bring their boats nearer to Dublin in winter. There are several stretches of the Grand Canal in Dublin or near Dublin which are not earning any revenue for CIE at present and which could earn a substantial revenue for CIE in winter time by the storage of water craft. I suspect that the Minister has personally done a considerable amount of work in persuading CIE, the Department of Local Government, and other State agencies, not to take any foolish decisions in relation to our waterways. One can only voice here encouragement for that particular activity and hope that it will be completely successful and that we will not lose one of the greatest potentials we have for tourist development.

One of the conditions laid down for the supply of electricity by the ESB, we are told by the board, is that consumers are obliged to advise the board of any additions to their electrical installations. When members of this House and others complain about poor electricity supply in Dublin suburbs, the ESB seek to excuse themselves by saying that they were not kept advised by people of the additional electrical equipment which they are using. It seems to me that this is an entirely unacceptable excuse. The main sellers of electrical equipment in this State are the ESB. In some Dublin suburbs the ESB have built their own showrooms, have given demonstrations of electrical equipment and pursued a positive and extremely active sales campaign in regard to electrical equipment. It is entirely unforgiveable that, while doing this and increasing the sales of electrical equipment, the board do nothing to ensure that there is an adequate supply for the servicing of these machines when they are installed.

The ESB who supply these machines do not—I know this for a fact—keep a record of the houses into which they go. They certainly do not pass on this information to their electricity supply department and the result is that people in large areas like Ballyfermot, Walkinstown and Finglas find themselves with an entirely inadequate supply of electricity. When this situation is arrived at because of the neglect of the ESB the buck is then passed and we are told the ESB are making efforts to acquire sites for the erection of additional substations but are running into difficulties with Dublin Corporation over acquiring the sites. It is our argument, and a reasonable one, that the ESB should build these substations in anticipation of the demand. The working people of Dublin should not have to suffer years and years of unsatisfactory electricity supply because of bad planning and bad implementation of plans on the part of the ESB.

It seems to me that they should restrain themselves in their sales promotion drives in regard to domestic equipment until such time as they make sure there is an entirely adequate supply of electricity for the unfortunate housewives who have been enticed to purchase their equipment. Housewives in Ballyfermot, Drimnagh, Walkinstown or Finglas have seen satisfactory demonstrations of electric cookers, washing machines and other pieces of domestic equipment at ESB showrooms. They then invested considerable sums of money in them, or committed themselves to considerable sums under hire-purchase transactions to acquire these machines, had them delivered to their homes, had, perhaps, sockets put in to receive them, only to discover that the machines took much longer to function simply because the electricity supply in the area was not up to the level available in the ESB showrooms. If other contractors were to behave in the same way, they would suffer but the ESB apparently are smug and complacent because theirs is a monopoly service and once they get the people to purchase the capital goods and domestic equipment, they could not care less if there is a satisfactory supply to them or not. It seems to me that the Minister is the only power left to the people to persuade the ESB and he should use his good offices to prevent a continuation of that unsatisfactory situation.

They have just completed an expansion of the available power in Ballyfermot and I hope the situation is better now.

I know that one substation has just been completed but it is not sufficient while Dublin Corporation have before them an application from the ESB to build three stations but they have not yet got sites for them. The electricity services, notwithstanding the erection of one substation recently, are certainly unsatisfactory and this is in an area covering 10,000 people. It is intolerable; I suggest it would not be tolerated in any town in the country with a population similar to that of Ballyfermot but apparently it is accepted as being good enough for the working people of Dublin. Perhaps the ESB may learn from their mistakes and the Minister for Transport and Power from our complaints.

I think he will find it reported that there was a complaint by his colleague, Deputy P. J. Burke, who represents the same area, within the past fortnight. Deputy Burke had to complain, and he is the Minister's colleague, about the electricity supply in Ballyfermot. He was lucky. We are often told the Minister has no function in the matter but apparently he had a function when the matter was raised by Deputy Burke. At least the Minister was able to convey to the Deputy the history which we have of the rest of the county. Those who visit the area in discharge of their duties knew it without having to inquire about the position here in the House.

Another undesirable activity on the part of the ESB is the way in which they have selected the people to whom they make available the hire purchase facilities which the ESB control. Quite clearly the ESB are in a privileged position. First, as a State-sponsored body with Government backing, they can more easily obtain money than the private hire purchase concern. They can certainly get money at a lower rate of interest than must be paid by the private interests competing in the money market for the savings of people. In turn, an ESB hire-purchase contract has a sanction which is not available to any private hire purchase concern because the ESB can associate repayments under a hire purchase agreement with the bill for the supply of electricity.

When this matter was raised before in the House, the Minister sought to avoid blame being thrown on the ESB by saying that it was wrong to suggest that the ESB were devoting to hire purchase repayments money paid to them for electricity supplies. The Minister may argue whatever way he likes out of the legal theory which he tries to spin in this House but the fact is that any creditor may allocate money paid to him to any debt that is owing to him, and if a householder receives a bill from the ESB, portion of which is in respect of an electricity supply and portion of which is in respect of hire purchase repayments, the ESB may devote that money to the hire purchase repayments and may then, if the person is in arrears with the electricity supply account, impose the penalty of cutting off the electricity supply. That has happened and is happening; the ESB are punishing people for non-payment of hire purchase instalments by cutting off their electricity supply. That is an advantage enjoyed by the ESB over any private hire purchase contractor.

When the ESB decided that they would select the type of trader to whom these facilities would be made available, they, in fact, killed the legitimate trading operations of certain reputable shopkeepers. Some years ago the ESB decided that many respected hardware shops in this city would not receive the hire purchase facilities of the ESB but that any fly-by-night boy who called himself an electrician could get them and the result is that very many reputable hardware firms in the city suffered a severe loss because until this particular selection on the part of the ESB took place they could sell washing machines, clothes-dryers, vacuum cleaners and several other items of domestic equipment, but once the ESB said that they would make their advantageous finance facilities available to other people, these hardware firms lost this legitimate trade which they had built up over years.

One undesirable result of this was that a number of highly suspect door-to-door salesmen went about the suburbs of the city vending domestic equipment and persuaded the people to take the equipment on the basis that it would not mean another hire purchase debt but would be added to their ESB bill. The result is that the ESB have been caught by several unhealthy transactions which were entered into at the behest of suspect salesmen on doorsteps of Dublin suburban houses. If the ESB are to use public money—that is what ESB money really is—to finance domestic hire purchase transactions, it is our contention that they should make these terms available to all reputable traders and should not be selective in the harmful way they have been selective in recent times.

I had occasion in the last year to draw the Minister's attention to the fact that CIE were apparently positively endeavouring to encourage bus traffic against train passenger traffic in County Dublin. The Minister was good enough to cause a letter to be written to me in March last saying from inquiries he had made with CIE, he did not find any justification for my assertions but I subsequently brought the Minister's attention to the fact that in Skerries and Rush in County Dublin, two seaside resorts with which I have some association, shop windows in the centre of the towns displayed for most of the summer months of the year bus timetables but there was no indication in the centres of these towns, good or bad, of train timetables. I have not yet heard from the Minister whether or not he has verified the accuracy or otherwise of my statements. The fact that I have not been contradicted leads me to believe that he could not contradict me. I have not yet had an opportunity of visiting these resorts this year but I hope to find the situation will have changed.

If the railway service is to pay, it must surely get treatment equal to bus services. As the trains to these towns provide speedier and perhaps safer service than that provided by the buses, I think it is to be hoped that passenger traffic would be maintained and, in fact, increased. The railway line in question must be kept open as a national asset because it is the main line to Belfast, Dundalk and Drogheda and I think it is accepted national policy that that main line must be kept open and its use for commuter traffic to Dublin is therefore something which would help to carry the cost of maintaining main line trains. With the increasing congestion in road traffic in Dublin, there is clearly need to provide facilities for commuter traffic and that can be done only if we encourage the use of these lines at present.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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