Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jul 1965

Vol. 217 No. 11

Committee on Finance. - Vote 42—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed)

Debate resumed on the following motion:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.—(Deputy M. E. Dockrell.)

Mr. Sweetman

I want to raise only two points on this Estimate. The first is in connection with the transmission of mail from Ireland to Britain. In my constituency, as the Minister will ascertain, there is a very forward-looking industry which has set up a subsidiary company in England for the purpose of the development of exports. Having regard to the way that company is placed, it is impossible for the work to be done here in connection with the ordering and clerical work unless there is a really first-class postal service between Droichead Nua and the London area. The present situation is that it is not satisfactory. I can remember when I was a child that if you posted a letter in Naas or Newbridge, it was always delivered in London the next morning and vice versa. That is not so now, even though we have air services. I understand the reason is that all airmail deliveries are routed through Manchester. The Minister may say this is an arrangement made by the British Post Office. It may be, but I am sure it could be changed if pressure were put on them, in particular, pressure in relation to payment for the services required.

The present position is that you have to post a letter before mid-day in the London area if it is to be delivered in Droichead Nua the following morning. That is a very bad service in these days of air services. I am apprehensive that, unless a guarantee of better delivery can be given, a good part of the mechanics of distribution of the factory's wares may have to be moved over to their office in the London area rather than carried on in my constituency. That would be a disastrous thing, both from the point of view of the town where the factory is situated and from the national point of view. From the point of view of balance of payments, it is obvious we must do everything possible to ensure that as much as possible of that type of work is done in Ireland. In that way we would have a plus on our balance of payments returns rather than the minus we would have if it were done on the other side.

I would urge very strongly on the Minister to seek with the British authorities a revision of the methods adopted, if I am right in thinking that it is at their request that all airmails are routed through Manchester. I would ask him to arrange with them that mails coming from the south of England be routed through one of the airports there rather than sent up to the north.

The second matter I wish to deal with is telephones. It is an old hobbyhorse of almost every Deputy. I should like the Minister to tell us when are we going to get a reasonably efficient telephone service. We could all understand it if we were told flatly it would not be all right until such and such a time and until such and such work is done, but what infuriates people more than anything else is to be told time and again that the service is perfect as it is. I wrote to the Minister nearly six weeks or two months ago about an instance when I had occasion to dial 10 to get an operator and 41 pips sounded before I got any reply. How that can happen I do not know. There is some improvement, but it is not a unique experience at all that such long delays occur in relation to answering of calls.

In the last five years the commercial community have moved over far more to telephones. The advent of automatic connection should mean more secrecy in relation to telephone conversations, and that has undoubtedly meant greater usage. The telephone is an essential means of communication for the business community, but unless there is to be a better service at some point of time, it is a bleak prospect. I would ask the Minister to indicate when he expects to be able to provide that service. His predecessor always took the line that he had inherited the bad position in 1957. Eight years have elapsed since then. Fianna Fáil are always claiming that they are able to provide everything required at once. Surely if that is so— I do not accept it is—the results should have been seen?

I would urge that there should be greater frankness. I am bound to say that on the only occasion I came across the Minister performing an official function in my constituency, I found a great improvement in frankness compared with his predecessor. It is only fair that I should say that. I must confess on that occasion I was astounded at the intricacies behind the scenes of an automatic telephone exchange. If the members of the public were taken more into confidence, I believe there would be greater appreciation. Certainly, as a result of what I saw that day, I have a greater appreciation of how things can go wrong, having regard to the intricacies of the machinery. What is required is more public relations of that sort to relieve one's annoyance and to ensure that the public realise a day is coming—we hope in the immediate future —when there will be a reasonably efficient service.

Mr. Reynolds

I feel it my duty as a rural Deputy to protest against the inadequate telephone service. No later than yesterday in my own constituency, I booked a telephone call to Dublin, a distance of 100 miles. It took me 1¼ hours to get through. In another half-hour, I would have been in Dublin in my car. That is a desperate situation in which to find ourselves in 1965. We have got the usual answer from the Government benches over the years that the lines are overloaded. As Deputy Sweetman said, surely in seven successive years of Fianna Fáil Government, they should have tried to do something about the situation and provide a reasonable service?

I should also like to mention the delay in dealing with applications for telephones. But when I get a letter from constituents looking for telephones in their business or farms, I often wonder will they be better off when the phone is installed. When people who have no experience of phones make application for one, they think they will be able to get in touch with their local doctor or veterinary surgeon in a few minutes. However, when they have the phone for a short time, they discover they could be there much more quickly in their cars.

Unless the Minister is prepared to improve the service, particularly in the rural areas, I doubt if there is much need to instal telephones at all. In my constituency the delay is two years. When one sees the advent of an automatic phone service in the cities and urban areas, one feels the attitude is that anything is good enough for the unfortunate people in rural Ireland. I believe the Minister will pay some attention to people living in rural areas, seeing that he himself comes from a rural area.

I do not think we are getting any charity from the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. Within the past year, the charges for telephone service, telegraph service and postal service have increased. Telephone subscribers and people who purchase stamps are paying a good price and are entitled to a much better service than is provided. I often wonder how long the Department would last in the business world. The Minister should give that question some thought.

Recently I came across the case of a telegram sent from England announcing a death. The telegram was received at a rural post office but was not delivered to the addressee until the next day. I checked with the local post office and was informed that there was no obligation on them to deliver the telegram. It is an extraordinary position that there is no onus on the Post Office authorities to deliver a telegram until the day after receiving it. A person may have to emigrate to England through no fault of his own. If he dies in England and if a neighbour sends a telegram to inform his family, it would appear that there is no onus on the Post Office to deliver that telegram until the following day when the postman is going on his route. The Minister should give some thought to that matter. Telegrams should be delivered immediately, even at extra charge.

I should like to deal with the question of postal addresses, to which my colleague, Deputy Harte, also referred. For instance, if somebody's address is Mohill. Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim, and if a visitor to this country wants to find the address, he will drive to Carrick-on-Shannon only to discover that he has gone through Mohil, ten miles away, and has to drive back. That is bad enough but there is a worse situation again in my constituency which has been so divided by the Fianna Fáil Party that one wonders sometimes where parts of it are. Arigna is in Co. Roscommon. The postal address is Arigna, Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim. It is difficult to explain to strangers the intention of the person who is responsible for arranging these matters. The Minister should see what can be done to remedy this matter. In the case I mentioned first, if a letter is addressed to "Mohill, County Leitrim", it will find its destination. In the second case a letter addressed to "Arigna, Keadue, County Roscommon," or "Keadue, Boyle, County Roscommon" will find its destination but "Arigna, Carrick-on-Shannon, County Leitrim" is completely silly.

Deputy James Tully referred to postal deliveries in some part of the country. I should like to bring him up to date. My information is that in my adopted constituency, quite recently, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs decided to have letters delivered by van and one of the Department's vans is being driven up and down every by-road and side road and cul-de-sac in Roscommon on postal delivery service. I cannot understand that. It may be that they did not want to appoint a postman here. It would be much more economic to pay a man the small wage postmen were being paid than to have a van with a driver being driven up and down every by-road and high road. It crossed my mind that the reason they did not want to appoint a postman was that there may have been two or three ardent supporters of their Party looking for the job and any way out should be adopted.

I should like to congratulate the Minister on his appointment as Minister for Posts and Telegraphs. Any time I have troubled him I have found him very courteous and helpful. I hope he stays there as long as the Fianna Fáil Party remain in office. I hope that will not be too long.

Mr. Ryan

I rise to share with Deputy Reynolds his last two sentiments and to wish the Minister personally well in his office. He is not the worst of Fianna Fáil Ministers. That in itself is a compliment.

I must say I share Deputy Reynold's horror at the thought of a van going up and down every by-road, side road and cul-de-sac in Roscommon. Having endured such an ordeal in a private car some months ago in a very good cause, I know the damage it can do to the chassis of both vehicle and person. It does seem to be an excessive waste of capital equipment. There are other mechanical means of getting about the country, such as scooters and motor cycles, which would seem to be a more useful way of providing a speedy postal service.

I wish to deal with a matter that I promised the Minister I would deal with, that is, the question of the outrageous restrictions the Department is putting on the efforts of Dublin Corporation to provide master aerials for flat schemes in this city. We are increasing the number of flats for the homeless people of Dublin. This is a trend which is almost certain to increase as years go by. The flat dwellers are not permitted by Dublin Corporation, for good and sufficient reason, to use all the chimney pots and all the roof space on these flats for the erection of individual television aerials. It has been done in some cases and, to say the least, the result is not aesthetically beautiful. There are considerable risks involved for the individuals who erect these aerials. The corporation have suffered their erection in a number of cases, not wishing to be unduly restrictive on their tenants and not wishing to deny them a facility which is available to every householder in the city and every tenant of a corporation house, but, because of the attitude of the Department, the corporation are unable to erect economic and sensible television aerials to serve these flat schemes. The rule of the Department is that no master aerial may be put up to serve any more than ten units of housing accommodation.

Under pressure, here, the other day, the Minister conceded that the reason for this was that they did not wish these people to receive on their sets any programme except that sent out by Telefís Éireann.

Mr. J. Brennan

That is not exactly what I said.

Mr. Ryan

I am paraphrasing the Minister's words.

Mr. J. Brennan

Very different.

Mr. Ryan

I am helping the Minister to be honest.

Mr. T. Lynch

He wants them to listen to nothing but Fianna Fáil propaganda. He thinks he is fooling the public in that way.

Mr. J. Brennan

We had peace while the Deputy was out.

Mr. Ryan

Deputy Lynch can make very useful contributions and can always tease out the little irritants and the little things which are preventing the proper fabric from being knitted. That is the real reason and the Minister has given us to understand that he does not wish to permit people to watch any other programme not only because of the political considerations but also because he fears it might have an effect upon the advertising revenue being earned by Telefís Éireann. I do not believe there is any justification for such fears. Radio Éireann has to compete with stations as far away as Sweden and Italy. Even on the cheapest sets, Radio Éireann has to compete with innumerable programmes being put out by several countries, Britain, France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, Sweden, Norway, Italy and sometimes one can get reception much further afield. Notwithstanding that, Radio Éireann, according to the official figures —and I have no reason to doubt them —is able to show at any given moment, except when programmes in Irish are on, that it has the highest percentage of listeners here. The advertising revenue of Radio Éireann is satisfactory and I am not aware that any of the advertising space it has available is not being taken up. The Minister should be courageous enough to permit people to have a choice in the television programmes they may see.

As I say, in Dublin we intend to increase the number of flats. They will be erected to higher levels and it is imperative, if the people in these flats are not to be penalised and unduly restricted in their television programmes, that master aerials be erected. I would plead with the Minister not to allow the silly attitude of his predecessors to continue to operate while he is Minister. We cannot succeed in keeping out foreign programmes by erecting a green fence around this green island of ours. It cannot be done in this day and age with vastly improved communications and increasing distribution of the printed word.

It is ridiculous to be imposing this restriction on Dublin Corporation in their wish to erect master aerials when Telstar, Early Bird and other satellites of this kind are being sent up and when international reception of television programmes on an increased scale will be a matter of common experience within the next decade. To impose this restriction now when technical advances will be able to overcome the restriction within the next decade is stupid and shortsighted in the extreme.

Another matter in respect of which I wish to criticise the Minister is the delay in the production here of machines to sell books of stamps. It is fantastic that the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, the largest buying agency in the State, is unable to acquire such a machine. One can buy coffee by machine, cocoa by machine, tea by machine, stockings by machine, cooked meals by machine. Every kind of inconvenient thing can now be produced on the drop of a coin with the exception of postage stamps produced by An Roinn Poist agus Telegrafa i bPoblacht na hÉireann. How stupidly can the Minister perform here? I do not think he is being fair to himself when he states in the House that there are difficulties in designing a stamp vending machine to turn out books of stamps in exchange for a coin.

Mr. J. Brennan

I did not say there was difficulty in turning out the machine. The difficulty is to get out a suitable book which it will dispense.

Mr. Ryan

Bless us and save us! Do we understand there is a greater problem in producing the little bit of cardboard with the sticky stamps inside it to come out of a machine than there is in cooking a meal or making coffee or tea in a machine?

Mr. J. Brennan

I shall deal with that in my reply.

Mr. Ryan

I know the Minister will produce a good bureaucratic answer but that does not make the situation less ridiculous. I am quite well aware that the history of the Department in regard to stamp vending machines has been abominable and I am sure there is hardly a person who has not lost money in the existing machines.

Mr. J. Brennan

We have stamp vending machines but this is one to produce books of stamps.

Mr. Ryan

We have stamp vending machines where you put coins in and no stamps come out. We are all familiar with those, and the Minister's fear is that if he produces these machines that sell books of stamps, people will not lightly suffer the loss of half a crown, whereas they may be prepared to suffer the loss of four pence.

Mr. J. Brennan

That is exactly the answer.

Mr. Ryan

It should not be beyond the resources of the engineers of this country and of the manufacturers of stamps and stamp books to produce a machine, stamps and a stamp book which will work satisfactorily. It is fantastic to think that it has taken over half a decade to produce this. What are the economics in regard to purchasing stamps after hours? There was a time when Dublin people who urgently wished to post letters after hours could go to the GPO where there was an office open all round the clock. That was closed down some years ago. Apparently we could not bear the expense of such a service for the people of Dublin but we can bear to lose tens of thousands of pounds a year on the provision of a round-the-clock service for foreign tourists who fly through Shannon Airport. In any event, we withdrew the 24-hour service in the GPO and now if a person wishes to send, say, three letters after hours, they must find 15 coppers in order to purchase three stamps. Any person would find it extremely difficult to acquire 15 coppers after midnight unless he had laid them in store. With the devaluation that has taken place in money, it is more than likely that most people would have half a crown.

Mr. J. Brennan

There are vending machines with 3d stamps.

Mr. Ryan

There are vending machines for 3d stamps but one must have three pennies, not a three penny bit. The Minister ought to know that.

Mr. J. Brennan

They operate very well.

Mr. Ryan

It is fantastic there is such delay over this when one can travel a short distance across the Border and buy books of stamps by the insertion of a coin. I do not know that the dimensions of stamps here and up north are that different. Certainly the dimensions of the books are no different as far as I can see.

Mr. J. Brennan

Is the Deputy suggesting the machines in the North are 100 per cent efficient?

Mr. Ryan

They have always worked for me. I cannot say the same for the stamp machines down here.

Mr. J. Brennan

They have exactly the same difficulty there as we have. I am there every week.

Mr. Ryan

I wish to deal with another matter, the question of the manners of the telephone section of the Department of Posts and Telegraphs. They are deplorable and would not be tolerated in any private concern. If the subscriber who telephones disagrees with the account as presented, if he dares to disagree beyond a month, he will almost certainly have his telephone service disconnected. That is blackmail. It is improper conduct on the part of the Department to disconnect the telephone service of a person while that person is legitimately questioning the account, and this has happened. It happened to one gentleman who refused over a number of years to accept the accounts from the Department. On each occasion on which he carried his account beyond a month his telephone was disconnected.

After some three years of protesting on his part, the Department went to the trouble of going to the local exchange and they found, as a result of that visitation, that he was quite justified in his complaints because calls made by other subscribers were registered against his number. He then received a casual apology, and no more, though in the interval his credit had been damaged in the eyes of those who tried to communicate with him and found the telephone disconnected, thereupon assuming the account had not been paid because the subscriber did not have the wherewithal to pay it. Other subscribers have on occasion not received accounts sent out—no delivery service is perfect—and they have also suffered the ignominy of having their telephones disconnected. All we ask is just a little bit of good manners from the Department and, if we get those, the Department will find that subscribers will not be unreasonable in their demands.

There is also the deliberate sabotage in the Department when people omit postal district numbers. Before these numbers were introduced, correspondence posted in Dublin was delivered within a matter of hours. Now, if a person omits the postal district number, it may take three, four, or five days for the letter to reach its destination, although the address may be in all other respects perfectly satisfactory. Clearly this is deliberate sabotage on the part of the Department. It is a deliberate punishment inflicted by the Department on those who omit district numbers. The practice is unworthy of the Department and should cease forthwith.

I have had occasion before to protest against the variation in the service which people in different parts of Dublin receive. If letters are posted in the centre of Dublin before 11 a.m. they are delivered that afternoon in Rathmines and Rathgar. If they are addressed, however, to Drimnagh and Ballyfermot, they are not delivered until the following morning. We have, I think, a right to protest against this discrimination. All citizens are entitled to receive the same service. I ask the Minister to ensure that all sections of our people receive the same treatment and that this special treatment accorded to some areas is not accorded at the expense of people in other areas. When I select these particular districts, I am speaking about areas within my own constituency and I am, therefore, perfectly familiar with them and have been able to check with recipients of correspondence from myself the time of delivery. The present system seems to me to be an unpardonable differential in the treatment of these people.

In reply to questions I recently elicited some interesting information with regard to the number of stoppages of work due to industrial disputes. The figure has varied from 36 per cent to 51 per cent of the total in respect of State-sponsored bodies. In other words, State-sponsored bodies have been responsible in some years for as much as 50 per cent of the total stoppages of work due to industrial disputes. It was unfortunate, to say the least of it, that we had the dispute between the Department and the subpostmasters, who had served the people well for many decades. It is also unfortunate that this acrimony is still dragging on.

Mr. J. Brennan

There is no acrimony now.

Mr. Ryan

I hope the Minister will be a little more humane than his predecessors were.

Mr. J. Brennan

We are the best of friends.

Mr. Ryan

Long may that continue. It may well be that the Minister has not yet got his feet set in the ways of his predecessors. I hope he never will.

However, the industrial relations leave much to be desired. I do not think he can say that he and the male telephonists are the best of friends. The efforts made by the Department to break the organisation these telephonists established for their own protection were most undesirable and I hope that the differences that still exist between the telephonists and the Department will soon be resolved. In this day and age, the Department should not refuse to negotiate with a body which represents some 95 per cent of the telephonists. Yet, that is what they have been doing. These men are doing responsible work and, if their co-operation is not available, the whole service will come to an end. I am not suggesting that their co-operation has not been available. I think it is, and under extremely trying circumstances, and I trust the Minister will not try them any further.

Deputy Sweetman referred to the advantage of an automatic telephone service, particularly where secrecy is concerned. I share his opinion, but that has not been our experience in Dublin. The live theatre may be on the way out but the number of opportunities for entertainment are not decreasing. All one need do is use the telephone frequently and one will get unlimited opportunities for eavesdropping. These opportunities are increasing. I should like to know what the Department is doing to diminish these opportunities. People are entitled to expect that a phone can be used for confidential conversations, but that is not so. Those who have serious confidential business to discuss are reluctant to use the telephone, even in urgent cases. That should not be so. Whatever overloading exists or whatever deficiencies there are should be remedied before any other load is put on the existing system.

Some time ago I obtained from the Minister interesting information as to the number of lines available and still unused in Dublin exchanges. The number in many areas exceeded the 200 and the 300 mark. Yet, in many of these areas, subscribers are waiting for telephones and have been waiting for a considerable period. I should like an explanation as to why there are such a large number of unused lines at so many Dublin exchanges when there are so many applicants waiting for phones for such a long period.

Television and radio are an extremely important means of communication. As one who has not got much leisure either to listen or watch, I cannot claim to be very expert, but, during the last week, I did have some moments of appreciation of President Nkrumah of Ghana telling his fellow citizens and the world that on Ghana television there would be no opportunities for watching American gangsterism. I should prefer television to go off the air for a number of hours every day than see the type of American gangster films and so-called American domestic films so frequently shown on Telefís Éireann. I cannot understand why, if we have to use canned films, we cannot go to other markets for them. Why must it invariably be sterile, uninspiring, damaging stuff, most uninteresting stuff, from America? I use the word "stuff" because that is the most polite word one can use in Parliament when talking about the distractions put out from Telefís Éireann in the name of entertainment. It may be good enough to hold the attention of some people until the commercials come around again but it is certainly not the type of thing we ought pay for at all.

I plead with the Minister to use his good offices with the television authorities to see that they go out into other markets to purchase canned television. I appreciate the economics of the matter and that it might be more costly to produce live television than some old films from America and elsewhere that may be available at relatively cheaper rates but America is not the only place with stocks of TV film. It is deplorable that we must confine ourselves to the limited American market to pick up what we need to keep our TV service going.

If canned television must be used, I plead with the Minister to ensure that we go into other markets, the British and European markets, where some extra entertainment might be available. If it is cabaret, it does not matter very much from what country it comes. There are other films that are better and, as I think the Minister well knows, they can be obtained. If the service were not in need of improvement, the Minister might not have any reason to fear that people would not look at Telefís Éireann. That appears to be his fear, as I said at the outset, in view of his reluctance to permit the installation of master television aerials. If it is a good service, the people will watch it and if not, they will turn to another channel.

I believe we are unduly critical of the home-produced programmes, just as we are unduly critical of anything we do ourselves. I should much prefer a home-produced programme that exasperated or infuriated me to the boring drivel that Telefís Éireann send out from the US and the various other channels from which they purchase television entertainment. We wish the station and all associated with it well, as we do all in Radio Éireann, in their efforts to produce for the people of Ireland the kind of programmes they want, programmes that have some meaning for Irish people. That cannot be said about the drivel which one finds so boring in the canned entertainment.

Mr. T. Lynch

I shall only ask a question I have been trying to ask for quite some time. Perhaps I can do it now. Will the Minister tell us what steps he is going to take to have the backlog of telephone applications filled and telephones installed? We have been telling the Minister and his predecessor that people are waiting for telephones for four or five years and the stock answer we get is that the staff are engaged on other work. We have been exhoritng the Minister and his predecessor to increase the staff installing telephones. In the city of Waterford, I know that only about three men are engaged on telephone maintenance in the whole city and, so far as installation is concerned, one might as well be in the South Sea islands. I hope to hear from the Minister on the subject of installations when he is replying.

Mr. Clinton

I also want to ask a question I tried to ask in the normal way but I found it was rejected by the Ceann Comhairle. I have heard considerable criticism about the fact that Irish productions used on Telefís Éireann—plays and other productions of that kind—are not stored either for reproduction or resale and that a considerable amount of money is lost in that way. We buy a considerable amount of canned stuff but sell nothing. I should like to hear the Minister comment on that.

Mr. Dillon

One of the greatest scandals in connection with this Estimate is the failure to instal telephones. I have been listening for four years to alibis, founded on the proposition that we are awaiting trunk lines or new exchanges. Sooner or later these alibis will cease to suffice and I think the Minister should be able to give greater reassurance than he or his predecessor has been in a position to give in respect of the absurdity of our failure to provide telephones for all who want them, more especially when we realise that the telephone service is the one section of the postal services which pays its way.

It is a fantastic comparison to see in the United States a private telephone company advertising for users, clamouring for people to multiply the number of telephones in their houses, and to find ourselves after years of planning, still in the position that we cannot, or will not, supply people with telephones, although if we did, it would involve no charge on the Exchequer; on the contrary, it would become an abundant source of revenue.

Secondly, I want to direct the Minister's attention to the fantastic postal arrangements for parcels at present. It is a service I do not often employ but recently I went to post books and for a parcel of books for which I formerly paid 6d., I was asked to pay 2/8. I suggest the rates for parcel post have reached fantastic heights. One becomes accustomed, I suppose, to meeting the charges on ordinary letters but it comes as a shock in the case of parcels. I do not think people realise the burden that is thrown on traders or on the ordinary citizen by the increase in postal charges which seem to me to have reached tremendous heights and with special reference to parcel post, these rates seem to be far in excess of what should be necessary for the economic transport of parcels.

I do not entirely agree with my colleague, Deputy Ryan, about the quality of entertainment provided by Telefís Éireann. I remember trying to ask myself what is the primary function of a television service. That is a question I think Deputies should ask because the Director General of Telefís Éireann has to ask himself that question. I think we are bound to answer it by saying that the primary function is to entertain. If it does not entertain, people simply will not look at it. By and large, comparing the quality of entertainment provided by Telefís Éireann with that provided by ITV and other commercial programmes in Britain, and indeed with commercial programmes in the US, I do not think Telefís Éireann has any reason to hang its head. The plain truth is that the advertisements are a damned nuisance and I think most viewers would look at the BBC in preference either to ITV or Telefís Éireann simply because of the intervention of advertisements, but once we took the decision in the Oireachtas to make the television service dependent in part at least on the revenue from advertisements, we have no reason to complain about the television authority if they carry out their injuction.

There is no doubt that the attraction of Telefís Éireann is very materially abridged by the number and length of the advertisements but I am told that unless that number of advertisements and that amount of time is devoted to them, the revenue we expect the service to earn will not be available. Having made due allowance for that, I do not think it reasonable to say that there is an excess of puerile entertainment on Telefís Éireann as compared with any other station. We must bear in mind that the station must provide what the bulk of the public want.

It might be very edifying if the station produced nothing but Beethoven and Mozart in music and nothing but classics in literature and drama but the bulk of the public might not want to look at that. Mark you, some of us might get a bit bored if we spent all our time listening to Dante's Divine Comedy. I have been trying to wade through that recently and I find it an extremely burdensome undertaking. Certainly I would not do it for entertainment. Doubtless it would be more edifying if more drama were broadcast but there are times in the lives of all of us when one enjoys looking at a western from the cinema. I should like to ask my colleague if it has not occurred to him that one of the reasons Telefís Éireann is constrained to turn to the United States of America for the source of canned material is the language?

I regard myself as being reasonably fluent in French and having a bowing acquaintance with German, but I would not like to be entertained listening to a French or a German play because it would put an undue strain on my linguistic capability. The output of material from American studios is vast and readily accessible. I do not think the output of that material from British cinema studios is of anything like the same volume. I suppose that sometimes it ought be possible to get superior material if a more prudent choice were exercised. I am sure that Telefís Éireann are not in a position to get exactly what they would like to get because in dealing with these distributing companies, I rather imagine that sometimes a body like Telefís Éireann may be constrained to accept what is offered and not allowed to choose all the stuff they want but are constrained if they get some choice item to take something not quite so choice as well. Certainly those engaged in the cinema business find themselves in that dilemma. Perhaps the Minister would tell us some of the problems that Telefís Éireann have to encounter when seeking to get the best they can offer in television programmes.

I want to say something that may cause a scandal but which requires to be said. Television is a medium of terrifying power. I often think that television is a very much more formidable instrument than the atomic bomb. The worst the atomic bomb can do is to destroy your body but television can destroy your mind and your soul as well, particularly in the case of young people, if they are perennially exposed to it. Therefore, a very great sense of responsibility is incumbent on whoever has charge of determining what is to be broadcast. On balance, Telefís Éireann has discharged that responsibility reasonably well and has provided a standard of entertainment which compares favourably with that available from other sources.

I want to put this to the Minister, and it is a matter of the gravest moment for this State and all the people: I am prepared to concede Telefís Éireann a very wide discretion in comment and debate about our proceedings in this House but I feel there is incumbent on Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann the obligation, particularly during a period when there are no newspapers in circulation, to provide an objective record—and I emphasise "objective"—of what has transpired in this House. I think Radio Éireann make a fair effort to do just that; Telefís Éireann do not. Most of their reports of the proceedings in this House are tendentious in the extreme.

I am perfectly well aware that a good many people are reluctant to comment on this, lest they themselves get the rough end of the stick, but as far as I am concerned I do not give two fiddle-de-dees what Telefís Éireann says or does not say about me, but I certainly care very deeply about what Telefís Éireann says or does not say about Dáil Éireann, because whether we like it or not, the independence and the standards of all our people ultimately depend on what transpires in this House. It is of vital importance, one, that our people should know broadly what is said in this House and, two, that the proceedings of this House should be honestly presented to them, objectively, leaving it to the people themselves to judge. I do not think that is being done.

I do not want to form or make any rash judgements but I want to make this perfectly clear, if that lack of objectivity is not the result of misguided effort but is in fact the result of a carefully conducted campaign by certain Ministers of the Government to control and influence the reporting on Telefís Éireann, it will be dealt with in this House specifically and by name. Now, I do not expect perfection of anyone but I do expect those charged with this immensely grave responsibility to discharge that responsibility honestly and scrupulously, and I do stipulate as a very minimum requisite that there should be an objective report of all that transpires in this House, leaving comment on our proceedings to some other programme.

In so far as Telefís Éireann fail to discharge that duty, the time has come either for them to improve their expertise, if that is what is lacking, or else to banish out of Montrose any ulterior influence that has no proper place there. Now, a nod is as good as a wink to a blind horse. Scandals are not desirable if they can be avoided but the exposure of corruption is a sine qua non of a clean democracy, and as long as this House functions, let the Minister be certain of this, corruption and interference with a medium of public communication will not go unexposed if it is suffered to continue. Lack of expertise is another question, and if that be the reason for the inadequacy of the reporting of the proceedings of this House, then someone should put his hand to its correction as soon as may be. The whole situation is immensely unsatisfactory and the cause of widespread comment.

We are not ordinarily a very charitable people. As Dr. Johnson said, the Irish are an honest people; they tend to speak ill of themselves. A great many of our people felt the absence of objectivity was evidence of improper interference with the discretion of the television authority. I am prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt, that it may be due to lack of expertise. If it is, it can be easily corrected; if it is not, then rather more disedifying suspicion requires it to be examined in greater detail.

I should like to give credit where credit is due and I should like to know from the Minister whether he agrees with me that the burden on Telefís Éireann of carrying so large a volume of advertising is creating an injustice for them which is rather more than they can be reasonably asked to bear? The time has come when we should consider this question very seriously.

Mr. J. Brennan

They love the burden.

Mr. Dillon

I do not think they love it but I think the Minister does and that the Minister for Finance does. Have we, perhaps, reached the stage when, realising how the burden of advertising militates against the popularity of Telefís Éireann vis-á-vis BBC television or ITV, Telefís Éireann could find the revenue to deliver them from the obligation to use advertising material at least for a period every day? I suppose the bulk of the viewing in this country is done between 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock at night. I fully appreciate that these are the hours for which advertisers are prepared to pay the highest fee. I do not know what is the total revenue collected by Telefís Éireann between 7 o'clock and 11 o'clock each night but would it not be possible to consider whether we should not find the revenue to deliver them from the obligation to inject advertising matter into those hours, if not each night, at least during certain nights every week?

I agree with Deputy Ryan that we should try to raise the standard of our television service. As I have said, advertising militates greatly against that objective. If we could reduce our obligation in that respect, I believe we would do a service of great benefit to the country. I ask the Minister, when concluding, to let us hear his views on the possibility of meeting that situation; of dealing with the telephone service, the cost of parcel post and the proper reporting of the proceedings of this House, which I think Radio Éireann is making a much better fist of than Telefís Éireann have been doing heretofore.

Mr. J. Brennan

When introducing the Estimate, I said I should endeavour to deal with all the points raised by different Deputies but I expressed the hope that they would not duplicate the points made last March when the Estimate was introduced originally. While we had a fruitful discussion, many of the points made last March were brought up again and I feel sure the House will not expect me to deal with all those in detail or in fact to deal with all of them.

The debate was well-balanced and for me, not being long in the Department of which I am now political head, most interesting. As I expected, the emphasis was on the question of the provision of extra telephones and on the waiting list we have to deal with. I do not intend to deliver an oration on the question of telephones but I should like to emphasise one or two points, in all sincerity, in respect of this service.

Deputies, in the main, answered the question themselves when some of them said that unless we gave a better service to those who have it already, we would be better off not adding new subscribers to the circuit. That, largely, is the answer. The abnormal upsurge in the number of applications for telephones is not merely outside the technical scope of the Department in the matter of new services but is outside the scope of the existing service to carry. While I do not derive any pleasure from it, I should like to tell Deputies that across the Channel the Postmaster-General is in the same position I find myself in, not through any incompetence on their part. Recently the Postmaster-General in Britain, addressing a branch of the trade union, referred to it as an explosion of demand. They were the words he used to describe the number of new subscribers.

We have had to meet the same thing and it is amply borne out by the fact that in 1960-61 the amount set aside for capital development on the telephone service was £2 million and that in this year it is £7 million. That in itself is not merely an indication of the magnitude of this problem: it is also proof that the effort the Post Office is making to grapple with the problem and get it under control has reached massive proportions. Some Deputies spoke as if we were standing still and doing nothing.

In the quarter ending on 30th June last, we installed more than 4,000 telephones. That seems big for the period. Our plans are aimed at making even greater progress as the year goes on. During that quarter, a huge number of new applications came in. The number of applicants each year seems to increase and this rate of progress makes the problem more and more difficult to catch up with. Particularly in relation to the service in rural areas, as far as I can see, the difficulty is this: once new telephones are installed in private houses, all the friends and neighbours of those new subscribers want telephones, too. When a telephone is installed in a rural area in a private house, nearly invariably there are five or six new telephone applicants from the same area. The highest percentage of applicants for new telephones is in respect of private subscribers. Of course we give priority to business applications, to professional applications—to applications related to the commercial life of the country. For that reason most of those on the waiting list are private householders.

Mr. T. Lynch

Would they include farmers?

Mr. J. Brennan

A farmer may or may not be a priority case. Each application is dealt with on its merits.

Mr. T. Lynch

The farmer is left, in any case.

Mr. J. Brennan

The type of application is important but in some areas it becomes disadvantageous to existing subscribers to add new installations. In this respect, some parts of the country are more fortunate than others. This does not involve merely the installation of telephones: it involves the problem of providing thousands of extra miles of cable each year, of the installation of equipment, of the provision of a service capable of dealing with this great expansion. Side by side is the matter of bringing the automatic system to the whole country.

Therefore, the problem is threefold. In order to measure the rate of success which the Department are achieving, in that respect one should look at what we have done and are doing rather than think about what we have not done and are not doing. We always hear about the telephone cail that took an hour. We do not hear about the hundred on the same line which got immediate connection.

Mr. Dillon

Is there any human being in Ireland who got immediate connection in respect of a telephone?

Mr. J. Brennan

I am talking about dialling.

Mr. Dillon

I am sorry. I thought the Minister was speaking about people who had applied for telephones and had not been connected.

Mr. J. Brennan

As a matter of fact, as the Deputy raised that point I do not think there is a country in the world where immediate connections are given, even in America where they boast about the Edison Bell Company. I was in Germany recently, as the guest of the German Minister of Telephone Communications, where I discussed the whole question of telephone communication. I asked the Minister if he had any delay in the installation of telephones. He was being as optimistic as he could when he said nine months.

Mr. T. Lynch

Is that the system the Minister installed?

Mr. J. Brennan

It is very easy to have some of the Teddy Boy cracks but this is serious business.

Mr. T. Lynch

There is no Teddy Boy crack about that. There are people who are waiting for telephones for five years and the Minister is doing nothing about it.

Mr. Corry

Pop singers.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Deputy is a common hangman. I want that put on the record.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman (Mr. Cunningham)

The Minister.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am trying to deal with this thing seriously because every speaker stated that telephones are very important in the commercial life of this or any other country. They are very important in the commercial and social life of the people. The upsurge in the number of applications is indicative of a better standard of living and of an expanding economy generally. No person is more anxious to improve matters in this regard than I am. During my short time in the Department I have had a look at the various departments in it and I can say with confidence and sincerity, that the officials there are dealing with this problem in an organised, dynamic manner. I do not like to hear Deputies on the other side of the House sometimes making reference to the Post Office, which is a reflection on the officials. I do not mean the Minister. He is always fair game for any criticism there may be. My predecessor and previous Ministers paid the same tribute to these officials on the technical side and the administrative side. They are working as earnestly as they can and they are as anxious as any of the Deputies or as I am to project an image of a Department doing a good and essential job which is one of the most necessary features of our expansion and our whole commercial effort in this country.

Mr. T. Lynch

The Minister is stopping telephones from going in.

Mr. J. Brennan

I installed 4,000 telephones.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

Order. The Minister.

Mr. J. Brennan

There will be 18,000 this year and the better the service we give them the more we will have. Thank God the time will come when we will have caught up on them. That will happen before very long. I never can visualise the time when we will not have complaints about the Post Office. I want to deal with some of the points raised by the various speakers but before I do that I want to deal with some of the matters which were mentioned generally by all. I dealt with telephones in a general way because it was one of the matters referred to by everybody who spoke.

Another point of general interest was the reference to Telefís Éireann and Radio Éireann. I shall not go into detail with regard to programme transmission. Programming is a matter for the authority. It is of concern to me naturally and I want to thank the first speaker, the shadow Minister for Posts and Telegraphs, Deputy M. E. Dockrell, for the very reasonable approach he had to this whole problem, both in regard to telephone communications, television and radio. I thought Deputy Dillon's reference to programming was very sound.

When one is speaking about the whole question of Telefís Éireann you will always find that somebody will find some fault with some programme or another. It is hardly necessary to repeat —this is something which has been said very often—that there will never be a television medium or a radio medium, for that matter, that will give complete satisfaction to all its listeners or all its viewers. Nobody for a moment expects that but I would agree with what Deputy Dillon has said. The television medium here in comparison with that of any other country in the world comes out reasonably well on top.

The television medium here is not by any means a bad service. We hope it will be better. If I have any complaint to make now I would repeat what my predecessor said when introducing this Estimate before. He said that the service had outgrown its infancy. It has now reached adolescence and we can look to it to improve in the direction the majority of the people would hope it would. There is one thing I would hope and that is that it would have a more distinctive national character. We do not want it to be a replica, a repetition or a shadow of any other foreign service. I would like it as much as possible to have an Irish character—such a character that when you switched to Telefís Éireann you would know it was not UTV, BBC or any other continental station.

Mr. James Tully

UTV is Irish, too.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am talking about the service we would produce with the right outlook.

Mr. Dillon

The best Irish singing I ever heard was on UTV.

Mr. J. Brennan

That is the other Irish station.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister was running it down a minute ago.

Mr. J. Brennan

The absence of any serious comment on any particular programme is in itself a tribute to the service generally. There were only two Deputies who selected any particular programme for serious comment. The fact that only two referred to the production of Stephen D does not call for any special comment from me. I heard people who said that they did not like it and I heard people who said that it was an excellent production. For that reason, as I said, the responsibility for programming is the business of the television authority and I am not going to deal with this in any detail.

I want to make some reference to what Deputy Dillon said in regard to political broadcasts. I do not, for a moment, accept what he implied—that it was due to corruption, that it was due to some more subversive means, or lack of expertise, that there was a wrong slant and a lack of objectivity in the reporting of the proceedings of this House. By that he implied that somebody in Fianna Fáil was arranging that there would be a Fianna Fáil slant given to political broadcasts. There was no such effort made and it is hardly necessary to say it. I suspect that Deputy Dillon's reference and threat are mainly designed for one purpose, to ensure that he continues to get the huge amount of publicity on Telefís Éireann which he has got over the past three years.

(Interruptions.)

Mr. J. Brennan

There is not one profile that has appeared more frequently on any screen in any part of the world than that of Deputy Dillon on Telefís Éireann. There may be a reason for it. He was the Leader of the main Opposition Party.

Mr. Dillon

It is manifestly obvious.

Mr. J. Brennan

He spoke during every debate in the House, whereas there might be a different Minister each time. There was no single occasion that I switched on to the proceedings in the Dáil, and this has been remarked upon by many people throughout the country——

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister must have switched off again when he saw him.

Mr. J. Brennan

People have noticed this, and it has been frequently remarked to me, that he was on television more often than anyone else. That he should be the one to accuse the Authority of being slanted towards this side of the House is more than I can comprehend. He got more than his share of favourable publicity from Telefís Éireann. If he only knew the number of complaints in our Party back in the country with regard to the overloading in favour of the Leader of the main Opposition, he would appreciate how little substance there is in the accusation he tried to make tonight.

Mr. Dillon

There appears to be some fire where I saw smoke.

Mr. J. Brennan

I make that statement for the record of the House and I feel I can make one prophecy —90 per cent of the people of the country dispassionately reading it, or having viewed the programmes will agree.

Mr. Sweetman

Nonsense.

Mr. Harte

Ninety per cent of the Fianna Fáil people.

Mr. J. Brennan

I think Deputy Dillon's threat and his reference were merely to ensure that that happy state of affairs will continue.

I will try now to run over some of the points raised. I will go over them rapidly, and will not deal with them all. Deputy Dockrell did not raise any really controversial points. He referred to the need for a better balance in the commercials. Sometimes one might feel that the number of commercials is overdone, but I do not think it is unduly overdone. If one takes into consideration the percentage of the total time occupied by advertisements, they certainly do not take up undue time.

Mr. James Tully

That is a comment on the material. If you do not mind them, they are good material, and if you do mind them, they are bad material.

Mr. J. Brennan

People are sometimes annoyed because in the middle of the transmission of a good programme, there is a break for commercials. I always find that they give the housekeeper a chance to look at the cake in the oven.

Mr. Dillon

They give the housekeeper a good chance to do what?

Mr. T. Lynch

Flour is so dear now that they have no cakes in the oven.

Mr. Dillon

That is the best alibi I ever heard, and I have heard a good many.

Mr. J. Brennan

It is not a serious one. It gives me a chance to light my pipe, and I am sure it gives the Deputy a chance to speak to his neighbours if they are sitting in. There is not much of the old conversational life left when people are sitting around watching.

Mr. James Tully

Ministers can look at television but Deputies cannot. I am surprised that Ministers have time.

Mr. Sweetman

The Minister should not forget what the Minister behind him said.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Can the Minister state when television will be available in southern Ireland?

Mr. J. Brennan

Deputy Dockrell complained about the telephone service and referred to Shannon.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

I was not complaining about it.

Mr. J. Brennan

It was a reference. We opened a new exchange at Shannon Airport earlier this year and it is one of the most up-to-date in the world. It is an excellent service.

Mr. M.J. Murphy

I asked the Minister a question and, perhaps, he would care to answer it since the Dáil will soon be finished for some time?

Mr. J. Brennan

What was it?

Mr. M.P. Murphy

When will the BBC programmes be available in southern Ireland? I believe they are available in the northern part of the country.

Mr. J. Brennan

I could not tell the Deputy, but that brings me to Deputy Ryan's question which was touched on by other speakers about communal aerials. In reply to a question earlier today, I said that a small communal aerial would serve ten houses, or a complete block of flats. I am not competent to deal with the technical side of this matter, but I do not think we should go to the expense of erecting a huge communal aerial to enable the occupants of a block of 10,000 houses to view external programmes which are in competition with our own revenue earning service. Deputy Ryan talked earlier about the people of Ballymun not having this huge aerial which would relay external programmes, and he finished tonight by referring to the terrible rash of external programmes we were importing into our own service.

Mr. Ryan

Selection.

Mr. J. Brennan

We cannot have it both ways. I think some Deputies are aware that arrangements have been made that if a large communal aerial is to be erected, this will only be done for people who will accept the condition that they will not use it to relay external programmes.

Mr. James Tully

Jamming is the next step to stop the people from getting the BBC Home Service.

Mr. T. Lynch

That is done by the Russians to stop people listening to programmes coming from outside the Iron Curtain.

Mr. J. Brennan

Is that right? The Deputy would know. I do not think there is any other country which offers facilities for viewing outside programmes. That is only natural. I know of no commercial concern which facilitates its customers to deal with its competitors.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

The Minister has a choice of three programmes in his own county.

Acting Chairman (Mr. Cunningham)

The Minister should be allowed to proceed.

Mr. Sweetman

He has sent for reinforcements in the shape of Deputy Burke.

Mr. J. Brennan

There may be a relaxation in regard to the question of the communal aerials, but I would not advocate that relaxation now, or certainly not until such time as our own service is able to stand on its feet financially, without any fear of competition from an outside service.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

Has the Minister anything to say on the point I raised about cheap telephone rates on Sundays?

Mr. J. Brennan

I have not. I do not think it is contemplated to introduce a cheap rate for Sundays.

Mr. M.E. Dockrell

It could pay.

Mr. J. Brennan

I wonder would it pay. The telephone services are already very busy on Sundays and cheap rates would lead to staffing difficulties. There is a cheap rate for trunk calls after 6 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. Sweetman

While the Minister is on that, would he consider publishing the times of peak hours so that people would know what times they could telephone and offload the peak?

Mr. J. Brennan

I would consider that, but I would say that people who use the telephone regularly are already aware of that.

Mr. Sweetman

There are often times when I would prefer to ring when I could get through.

Mr. J. Brennan

The Deputy who was worried about the telephone for the Clancy Brothers is not here now. I have had many representations about this. As far as I know, it concerned a private telephone to one particular house. I am afraid one cannot make exceptions where priorities are strictly drawn up.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister would never give them the MBE in that case.

Mr. J. Brennan

Deputy Harte was worried about addresses in Donegal. In fact, he was worried about everything.

Mr. Dillon

A good Deputy.

Mr. Harte

There were more Deputies than Deputy Harte worried about everything in the country. Many people in the present Government were concerned too. I do not blame them because a fiddler in O'Connell Street would collect more than there is in the Fianna Fáil kitty.

Mr. J. Brennan

What is the Deputy saying? I do not think any of the matters raised by Deputy Harte are things I should write to him about personally. The question of addresses is something that applies to most areas. It is because an effort is made to get a quick delivery to an entire county. Some time ago in Donegal a number of sorting officers were appointed to ensure that every area would get quick delivery. That necessitates using the name of the town for that particular area. It is a simple thing. This is not a serious matter, if the people use it properly.

Mr. Harte

They say simplicity is the essence of genius, but whatever genius thought that out lacks simplicity.

Mr. James Tully

It is important for somebody who is using it as an address to call to, if he thinks the town mentioned is outside the address.

Mr. J. Brennan

It applies all over the country. People are perfectly well aware that the sorting office address as indicated on the envelope is not just the next door town they were going to. As Deputy Reynolds said, strangers——

Mr. Reynolds

Strangers are completely mixed up in it. The whole analysis of this is that we are preaching about tourism and misleading persons with addresses.

Mr. Dillon

The same applies to Sligo.

Mr. J. Brennan

It is the first time I ever heard a complaint about it and I get around as much as everybody else.

Mr. Reynolds

The Minister is losing touch with people.

Mr. J. Brennan

I must be.

(Interruptions.)

Acting Chairman

The Minister at this late hour should be allowed to proceed without interruption.

Mr. Harte

On a point of information, does the Minister agree that it is appropriate to have such an address as Arranmore Island, Letterkenny?

Mr. J. Brennan

It is via Letterkenny. That is the simplest thing to put on an envelope. My actual address is Donegal town, even though I am quite a bit away from it.

Mr. James Tully

The Minister lives in Dublin.

Mr. J. Brennan

Our letters come without delay; I have not experienced a single delay.

Mr. Harte

The Minister refuses to admit he is wrong.

Mr. J. Brennan

I do not think there is any further point of importance I should deal with. Deputy Sweetman raised a point regarding the routing of letters by air mail to England. That is something I shall examine. I simply do not know the particulars now. It is a new point. All the other points raised have been dealt with already.

Deputy James Tully raised the old question of the uniform and the complaints about the cloth and the dye. That has been raised a hundred times.

Mr. Ryan

And nothing has been done about it.

Mr. J. Brennan

When you are dealing with the masses, you cannot have a tailored uniform for every individual.

Mr. James Tully

I do not like the word "masses". The Minister is dealing with human beings.

Mr. J. Brennan

We are dealing with a lot of people at the same time.

Deputy Dillon raised the question of postal rates. Everybody knows there was a simple answer to that in recent times. Everybody connected with the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, down to the postmen, has got a considerable increase in his or her rates of pay and that must be reflected in the postal services.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

What about pensions?

Mr. J. Brennan

It is quite right that the telephones show substantial profit. Postal services in recent years are showing a loss but on the overall we try to make it balance out. Telegrams show a heavy loss always and the agency work is done just at the cost of doing it, so that any pay increase given in the postal services is naturally reflected in the charges. It has always been traditional to try to make the Post Office pay its way and, at the same time, keep abreast of every modern advance there is. There is no Department of State in which so much technique and skill and knowledge is necessary in the technical field and there is no Department in which there is so much advance each year in the equipment used. We are keeping abreast of all these advances in accordance with advances in all other countries of the world. If Deputies say they do not know, I think they pretend not to know what goes on behind the scenes. Deputy Sweetman was very honest to admit that there were intricacies, as he saw when he went behind the scenes. I feel that if many people who complain saw the complications and intricacies of the mass of equipment attached to one simple automatic exchange, they would appreciate all the difficulty there is and the organisation that is necessary by highly skilled people to ensure they give an efficient service.

I should like to refer to Deputy Ryan's book of stamps. We could get a machine out tomorrow to dispense books of stamps. But, if the machine does not dispense the stamps efficiently, if it despenses 10,000 books and then fails, there is a complaint. In this case people are dropping in halfcrowns instead of pennies and people will not easily accept the loss of halfcrowns. I should like to say that until these machines, which are being tried out now, come as near as possible to 100 per cent efficiency, I should not like to see them installed. If they are installed in haste and without a properly prepared book of stamps to dispense, Deputy Ryan will put down Parliamentary Questions in this House every day about how inefficient they are. We have to deal with these things.

Mr. Clinton

I asked the Minister a specific question in relation to Irish stories and plays. Perhaps the Minister is not going to answer it.

Mr. J. Brennan

I shall have to answer this off the cuff because I am not briefed on it. The Deputy is not quite correct in what he says. While he may be correct in some respects, when he states that home-produced films for television are not preserved for further use he is not correct.

Mr. Clinton

That is not correct.

Mr. J. Brennan

That is the information I have. Surely all the Kennedy films taken during the memorable visit——

Mr. Clinton

They may be a special lot.

Mr. J. Brennan

I am sure it applies to most. I shall write to the Deputy and let him know the exact answer to that question later on.

Mr. James Tully

Will the Minister write to me or communicate with me in relation to a number of questions I put to him?

Mr. J. Brennan

Yes, the Deputy said he would be quite happy about that arrangement. This being my first Estimate—which I think should not have been reintroduced—I am very pleased to get a certain amount of practice out of it, anyhow. I have very little knowledge of the Department as I have been there only a few months. I appreciate the nice approach of most Deputies in their speeches and many of them saw fit to wish me well. I want also to pay tribute to the officials of the Department to whom I am sure I have been a source of great annoyance in the past few months mainly because of my efforts to find my feet and my thinking that I should get something done faster. I realise that they have borne patiently with me and that they are co-operating to give the people of this country a good service, courteously and efficiently.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

Has the Minister anything to say about the provision of telephones in South-West Cork? I have had some communications from him in relation to the matter. The Minister told me, in reply to a Parliamentary Question, that they would all be dealt with in a short time. Still, letters are coming out from the Department to the effect that a person's application was received but that unfortunately the telephone will not be provided for a considerable period. Would the Minister say a word about this?

Mr. J. Brennan

I have given this answer here so many times that I did not think it was necessary to give it again tonight. We plan to instal 18,000 telephones in this current financial year.

Mr. M.P. Murphy

How many in South-West Cork?

Mr. J. Brennan

That will include all the pre-1965 applications and as many as possible of those that have come in since then. Let us try to do that in an organised way. If I shift gangs from X to Y, installing a telephone here and a telephone there, it will not be possible to adhere to the planned programme.

Question: "That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration", put and declared lost.

Vote put and agreed to.