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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Nov 1965

Vol. 219 No. 4

Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Garda Síochána Band.

53.

asked the Minister for Justice the circumstances in which it has been decided to disband the Garda Síochána Band; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

54.

asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a statement clarifying the position regarding the Garda Síochána Band.

55.

andMr. L. Belton asked the Minister for Justice if, having regard to widespread public concern about the rumoured discontinuance of the Garda Síochána Band, he will ensure that steps will be taken to permit the band to continue; and if he will make a statement on the matter.

56.

asked the Minister for Justice if his attention has been drawn to reports about the disbanding of the Garda Band; if the reports are correct; and, if so, what is the reason for this.

57.

asked the Minister for Justice if he will make a statement on the reasons which have led to the decision to discontinue the Garda Síochána Band; and if, in view of the prestige value of this band both at home and abroad, he will now reconsider his decision.

58.

asked the Minister for Justice if he is aware that the Garda Band were described in glowing terms by both the President and Taoiseach on the programme for the 1964 American and Canadian tour of the Band; and why in view of this it has now been decided to discontinue the activities of the Band.

I propose with your permission, a Cheann Comhairle, to take Questions 53 to 58 together.

The strength of the Garda Band has varied from time to time: before 1938 there were four Garda bands with a total strength of 85. In that year they were reduced to two bands with a strength of 51. In 1954 the bands were reduced to one with a strength of 37.

The cost to the State in salaries and pension liability for the year 1965 is of the order of £38,000 and in respect of hours of duty on musical activities alone the cost to the State is of the order of £25,000. Apart from this cost to the State sums are given to the Band as fees for private engagements and further sums are given as voluntary contributions from within the Force. These fees and contributions are not handed over to the State as an offset to the State's costs; they are kept in a fund administered by a Band Committee who are members of the Force and cover such items as contributions to the bandmaster and the band sergeants, subsistence allowances for members attending engagements, repairs to instruments, fees to the Performing Rights Society, printing and stationery costs, grants to the Garda Benevolent Fund and to the Garda Medical Aid Society and so on.

Members of the Force in the Garda Band are ordinarily required to do three hours regular police duty on each of four days in the week but on any day on which the band have an engagement the members are not required to do any regular police duty. On a conservative estimate, which has taken into account the special tour of duty on traffic enforcement in the weeks approaching Christmas and other minor occasional assignments of that kind, the bandsmen give less than one-third of the normal Garda working hours to police duties proper.

The position this year is that the band has made ten visits to the training depot and, in all, has played on 40 days in connection with the drilling and passing-out parades of recruits. The use of recorded music and loud speakers has been found, however, to be adequate throughout the general period of recruit training. In effect, then, it cost the State £25,000 to have the band available for 10 official musical performances of a couple of hours on each of 40 days of this year.

Apart from official performances, the band gave two free recitals in public and performed at 55 private engagements — at races, football matches and the like—at fees varying from £10 10s. to £30. The gross total of these fees amounted to £700 and, with the deduction of subsistence allowances which account for more than half, the net benefit to the band fund was no more than a couple of hundred pounds. A number of requests for the use of the band were withdrawn when the question of fees was mentioned even though the highest fee quoted was less than one-third of the salaries payable to the band for that particular day.

To conclude: my decision to disband the Garda Band was based on the following considerations: (1) the retirement of the bandmaster early this year occasioned a reappraisal of the band's functions; (2) the cost of maintaining the band is excessive, wasteful and out of all proportion to any purpose served; (3) it has been established that the band has outlived its usefulness for official purposes as its functions in the training of recruits can be carried on adequately by the use of recorded music; (4) it was found that there had been a steady decrease in public interest over the past 12 years which was reflected in the number of private engagements and the receipts from fees had dropped to less than half, that is, from £1,980 in 1954 to £870 in 1963 and £700 for the first ten months of 1965; (5) while maintaining the Force at its present strength of 6,540, the intake of recruits will drop by about 50 per cent in a couple of years time, there will be a corresponding reduction in drilling exercises and passing out parades, and the maintenance of a band would become still more wasteful and excessive; (6) continuance of the band for prestige purposes alone could not be justified; (7) police requirements in the prevention and detection of crime, enforcement of the traffic laws and the maintenance of law and order generally which now cost almost nine million pounds annually necessitate that the most efficient and economical use be made of all police manpower.

Would the Minister not agree that the statement he has made is one which no Minister for Justice should make about a body such as the Garda Band? Does he not agree that he has, for some reason best known to himself, adopted a vindictive attitude towards a band which is well known not alone here but throughout the whole world? Does he deny that last year this band was lauded by people in this country and in America as being a credit to any nation and that the Taoiseach is on record as confirming that in writing? Will he say, in view of all those things, why he decided to save a miserly amount compared with the money being spent otherwise? Is it not a fact that this band which, for its cultural value alone is worth very many times the amount we spend on it, is worth every penny that is spent on it? Why should it be disbanded now at this stage?

I am perfectly satisfied the decision taken was the correct one. The extra police manpower made available will go very far towards greater enforcement of the Road Traffic Act. Already members of the band are engaged on that particular work in the city and they have released other members of the Garda for crime prevention and detection. I am perfectly satisfied that that is the work the manpower of the Force should be engaged on and the amount involved, £40,000 per year for a band with ten official functions in the year, was entirely incommensurate with the main purpose of the Force, which is the enforcement of law and order and the implementation of the provisions of the Road Traffic Act.

Is the Minister in a position to say whether this was a Government or a ministerial decision?

I take full responsibility for it.

Was it the Minister made the decision?

I take full responsibility for it.

Was it the Minister for Transport and Power or the Minister for Finance——

I take full responsibility for it.

Were these people recruited as Garda officers or as musicians?

That is a separate question and there is a separate answer.

And the Minister was very good to answer it on its own. He did not answer it with the others.

Is it not true to say that when the bandmaster retired there was an audition held last April for his replacement?

That is so, yes.

And the wrong fellow was recommended.

Did the Minister not say that it was because of his retirement he considered it suitable to disband the band? Is it not a fact that a large percentage of the people in the band were people recruited last year for the American tour? Most of them —13 of them—had to buy their way out of the Army for that purpose?

At £200 a piece.

And were they told they would be disbanded when the tour was over?

First of all, it was an entirely commercial affair——

How could it be an entirely commercial affair when the State spent money on it?

——and the members of the band are now doing excellent work in the city as traffic enforcement officers. In answer to Deputy Tully, the fact is that these people were recruited primarily as police officers and, secondly, as musicians.

Does the Minister not consider the decision to disband the band a reflection on the whole idea of a Garda force? The common practice in all police forces is to have at least one band and, in many cases, more than one. Has the Minister not considered the possibility of retaining the band as a band, even on a part-time basis, and using the members for other duties rather than disband the band entirely? Surely that type of band should be possible. Surely it should be possible to retain the band on that basis, allowing the band to be available for ceremonial Garda duties?

I may say in regard to the first part of the Deputy's question that the Garda force itself would completely back this decision of mine.

Oh, no; they do not.

The information I have, in any case, is that the members of the Garda force generally have no great objection to the organisation being disbanded, an organisation which was available on ten occasions over the past 12 months——

Was it ever put to the Force?

——for certain functions at a cost of £40,000 to the State. I intend in the immediate future to double the number of traffic control police officers and have more gardaí available for crime detection and prevention. In my view, this is money which should be available for the Force and I intend to use the Force to the maximum extent on police duties and the Force bears me out and backs me up in this.

The No. 1 Army Band will go next.

We welcome more gardaí on police duty and crime detection and prevention, but would it not be possible to maintain as a symbol of the Garda force part of the ceremonial connected with it, even on a part-time basis, namely, a Garda band?

I am quite willing to allow the band to operate in its uniform and with its instruments in its own spare time in any capacity it wishes.

According to the advertisement which I have here, there was no reference to the police force. All applicants were asked was to be a certain height because it would not do to have the small fellows and the big fellows mixed up together; none of the requirements normally asked for were asked for here; 24 were recruited as musicians out of the Army School of Music. Would the Minister do the decent thing now and let them go back there quickly since he is not prepared to carry on with the Garda band?

Have we now reached the happy stage of adding the further distinction to our Garda Síochána of being the only police force in the world that has not got a band?

I may say in answer to that——

If that is so, then Fianna Fáil are finished.

——that my only surprise, having examined the facts, is that this decision was not taken earlier.

The Minister must be hard up. Times are bad.

(Interruptions.)

Fianna Fáil are very hard up.

The money was spent on Mercedes cars instead. Give it back to the Garda now and let us have a bit of music.

The Minister has no culture.

A shameful decision. Philistines !

59.

asked the Minister for Justice whether the members of the Garda Band were recruited as musicians or as regular police officers.

Members of the Force who are attached to the Garda Band are regular police officers.

Each new entrant to the Force makes a solemn declaration, in writing, before a Peace Commissioner that while he continues to hold the office of garda in the Garda Síochána, he will discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law. I quote—

I, A.B., do solemnly and sincerely before God declare and affirm and my word and honour pledge that I will be faithful to the utmost of my ability in my employment by the Government of Ireland in the Office of Garda in the Garda Síochána, and that I will render good and true service and obedience to Ireland and its constitution and government as by law established, without favour or affection, fear, malice, or ill-will, and that I will see and cause the peace to be kept and preserved, and that I will prevent to the best of my power all offences against the same, and that while I shall continue to hold the said office, I will to the best of my knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.

Every recruit is given training in general police duties.

The qualifications for entry into the Garda Síochána are prescribed by Article 4 of Statutory Instrument No. 173 of 1945 and they include success at a competitive educational examination held by the Civil Service Commissioners. There is provision, however, for exemption from the requirements of Article 4 where the Garda Commissioner is satisfied that an entrant has such special technical qualifications as justify his appointment.

Hear, hear.

Under this provision a limited number of applicants have been admitted, from time to time, with qualifications as musicians, mechanics and so on.

Hear, hear.

Some members of the Garda Band were recruited in the ordinary way but the great majority were given exemption from the educational tests, etc. because of their competency in playing musical instruments.

Members of the Force who have been recruited because of specialised qualifications have at all times been liable to assignment to ordinary police duties.

So far as the band is concerned, 13 members were compulsorily transferred to ordinary police duties in 1954 following a reorganisation of the band in that year. Also, seven members of the band were compulsorily transferred to ordinary police duties in 1964. Over the years, there have, also, been instances where band members were transferred to other duties at their own request.

Does the Minister not agree that the only requirement of recruits for this type of duty was that they be capable of reading music and competent to play a brass or reed instrument? Surely that is not what is required of an ordinary guard and not the type of test or examination which a normal Garda recruit is required to do? Does the Minister not agree that this was a case of men being specially recruited because they were able to do a certain thing, that they were a credit to the Force and because of the fact that money is short Fianna Fáil have now picked on what they thought was the softest one they could get?

I think the Deputy does a disservice to the men concerned. I have had a special report on each of these men since they went on traffic enforcement duty and I am told that they are discharging their duties efficiently and excellently and they should not be in any way slandered in this House.

That is not the point.

Will the Minister say whether the duties the men undertook to perform included the duty of playing music in the Garda Band and, that being so, what opportunity will now be given to these men to perform the duty the State required them solemnly to undertake to perform?

I reiterate that the men are performing their duties excellently at the moment.

That is, playing music in the Garda Band, for which they were recruited?

In view of the unsatisfactory reply, I should like, despite the cold, to raise the subject matter of Questions Nos. 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 and 61 on the Adjournment.

Arising out of that reply——

Question No. 60.

Are we to have no music? Is that the type of culture we are to have?

Question No. 60.

60.

asked the Minister for Justice (a) the names of bands under the aegis of his Department which have appeared abroad in the last five years, and (b) the number of engagements fulfilled by each such band.

The only band in question was the Garda Band which was on tour in the USA and Canada under contract to Colombia Festivals Incorporated of New York for a period of eight weeks in 1964 during which they gave 51 performances.

And there was a letter from the Taoiseach on the front of the programme.

Will the Minister say what the State did with the sum of £80,000 handed over to the State when the Garda Band went to the United States of America?

That is not true.

It is true. You were making money on them last year. Now you disband them.

That is simply not true.

It is an outrageous performance.

I gave the facts very fairly to the House.

What did you get when the band went to the United States of America, will you tell the House?

I will tell you—no money.

£80,000 on deposit—and the Minister knows that.

Will the Deputy put down a separate question?

Will the Minister answer it?

61.

asked the Minister for Justice the normal period of Christmas duty of the members of the Garda Band for the last four years and the period of such duty proposed for this year.

In 1961, 62, 63 and 64, members of the force in the Garda Band were assigned to ordinary police duties, mainly in connection with enforcement of the traffic code, from December 1st to December 24th. In 1965 the corresponding period is from November 15th to December 24th.

In view of the fact that the Minister says that he is disbanding the band, surely he is going to continue——

There will be plenty of work for them. This is just the Christmas duty.

The cancellation of the two appearances in Lansdowne Road will not interfere with them?

The Deputy's question raises only the matter of Christmas duty. We have plenty of other duties for them.

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