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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Nov 1965

Vol. 219 No. 4

Tourist Traffic Bill, 1965: Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. The main purpose of the Bill is to provide for the registration of caravan sites and camping sites, the continuation of the scheme of ministerial guarantees in respect of loans raised for the construction or improvement of holiday accommodation and the provision of resort amenities and continued arrangements for the financing of the various activities of Bord Fáilte Éireann.

The Tourist Traffic Acts, 1939, 1952 and 1957 provide for the registration by Bord Fáilte of certain categories of holiday accommodation, namely, hotels, guest houses, holiday hostels, youth hostels, holiday camps and motor hotels or motels. The effect of the registration system is that no person may describe or hold out any premises as an hotel, guest house, etc., unless the premises are registered in the appropriate category with Bord Fáilte. To secure registration, premises must comply with standards prescribed by Bord Fáilte with my consent and proprietors must file with the Board a statement of maximum prices. Registered premises benefit from inclusion in the Official Guide published annually by Bord Fáilte and also from various schemes of financial assistance for works of improvement and extension.

Caravans are playing an increasingly important part in holiday-making and Bord Fáilte say that the present patronage for caravans is predominantly for static caravans for hire on site. The patrons are mainly family groups and include many families who for financial or other reasons could not take a holiday in hotels. Caravan sites are not intrinsically attractive, and close control over this form of development is essential to ensure the safeguarding of scenic and other natural amenities.

The Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1948, provides for the control of certain aspects of caravan site development and general standards for such development have been laid down by the Minister for Local Government. These powers are operative only in areas to which they have been applied by Order of the Minister for Local Government. In addition, the use of land for the purpose of caravanning is subject to the approval of the local planning authority under the Local Government (Planning and Development) Act, 1963. Local Government legislation in the matter of caravan sites, however, relates mainly to standards for physical planning rather than operational standards so that in general it may be said that local authorities are concerned with the planning, public health and public amenity standards of caravan development. Bord Fáilte, however, are anxious to encourage higher operational standards also.

Up to the present, little progress has been made in the provision of caravan sites to a standard comparable to the best sites in Britain and on the Continent. An essential step towards the raising of standards of facilities and operations is the introduction of a system of inspection and grading. Bord Fáilte intend also to attract camping visitors from European countries where camping holidays are very popular and it is intended, therefore, that the registration system should extend also to camping sites. Provision has accordingly been included in the Bill for the registration of caravan sites and camping sites by Bord Fáilte in accordance with regulations made with the consent of the Minister for Transport and Power after consultation with the Minister for Local Government.

The Bill also provides for certain minor amendments of the scheme of guaranteed loans for the provision of holiday accommodation and tourist amendities, which is operated by my Department under section 17 of the Tourist Traffic Act, 1952. Under this scheme the private developer raises a loan from a bank or other lending institution and the repayment of capital and the payment of interest is guaranteed by the Minister. All loans guaranteed to date have been in sterling and there is some doubt whether the existing legislation would enable a guarantee to be given in other currencies. This doubt is being removed under the Bill by making it clear that guarantees can be given in currencies other than the currency of the State.

The 1952 Act restricted guarantee for loans raised for the provision of amenities and services to works related to particular tourist resorts. With the creation of the regional tourism organisations, and the growing popularity of motoring tourism, initiative in tourism is now growing in places other than those which are traditionally regarded as resorts and it is considered desirable that guaranteed loans should be available for worthwhile tourist enterprises even though they may not be in a recognised tourist resort or associated with a particular hotel. This is being effected by a modification of the scope of the scheme as set out in the 1952 Act.

The 1952 Act limited the operation of the scheme of guaranteed loans to a period of five years from the date of passing of that Act. This period was extended by two further periods of five years by the Tourist Traffic Acts, 1957 and 1961, so that the present scheme is due to expire in 1967. The Bill provides for a further extension of five years which would have the effect of authorising the continuation of the scheme until 1972.

The Bill also contains provisions for the future financing of the various statutory functions of Bord Fáilte. These functions are paid for out of funds voted annually by the Oireachtas in the form of grants-in-aid to the Board. There are statutory limits on the aggregate amounts that may be issued to the Board for specified purposes and accordingly it is necessary from time to time according as these statutory limits are reached, to ask the Oireachtas to enact enabling legislation to permit the voting of further funds so as to provide for the continuation of the Board's activities. It so happens that we are at present nearing the statutory limits applicable to the three main divisions of the Board's activities, namely, the major resort development scheme, the scheme of cash grants for the development of holiday accommodation and the general function of increasing tourism in Ireland. Accordingly, the Bill contains enabling financial provisions relating to all three functions.

The resort development scheme was inaugurated under the Tourist Traffic Act, 1959, which provided for the payment to Bord Fáilte within a ten year period of sums not exceeding in the aggregate £1 million for the giving of grants for major tourist resorts. From this fund a grant scheme has been operated by the Board to enable such essential schemes as basic site development, provision of promenades, parks and other recreational activities to be undertaken. The major resorts and resort areas selected by Bord Fáilte for development were:

Galway/Salthill, Killarney, Bray, Dún Laoghaire, Tramore, Skerries, Kilkee, Youghal, Ballybunion, Lahinch, Arklow, Greystones, West Cork, County Donegal, Achill Island, Dingle Peninsula, River Shannon and Lakes.

The scheme is carried out by Bord Fáilte in consultation with the local authorities and other local interests. One of the main conditions of the scheme is that there should be a minimum local contribution of 20 per cent.

The progress of the scheme in the first four years was slow in terms of physical work but a great deal of work was undertaken in the form of discussions with local interests, formulation of proposals and drafting of plans, the acquisition of land and so on. With the acceleration of actual development work in the past couple of years, grant payments have increased and we are now reaching the £1 million limit. The scheme was the first comprehensive programme of its kind and the initial plans and estimates were necessarily of a tentative nature and were subject to modification as the scheme progressed and experience was gained.

The work programme for some resorts had to be varied because of local conditions, resulting in the abandonment of some items and the substitution of others. Overall, Bord Fáilte have found it necessary to adopt a more extensive programme to ensure that a significant impact was made and that moneys would not be wasted through inadequate scale or incomplete planning. Costs have risen considerably since the first estimates were prepared so that, even to finance the original proposals, additional moneys would have been needed.

A further factor is that the Shannon waterway was not originally included among the areas to be developed and the subsequent addition of the Shannon has absorbed some of the initial fund. It will be clear from all this that the original £1 million provision is now inadequate. It is estimated that by the time the complete programme of works at the seventeen resorts and resort areas has been carried through the total cost will amount to £2.5 million. The rate at which the work can proceed will, of course, depend on the availability of capital. The provision of funds for this purpose will be covered in the usual way in the annual Vote for my Department.

This is an opportune time to look ahead and to consider what form resort and amenity development should take to meet the requirements and the tastes of the tourists of the future. All the areas selected for development under the original scheme, with the exception of Killarney and the Shannon waterway, are coastal and the basic attraction in each case is proximity to the sea. With the development of additional early-season and late-season traffic it is clearly necessary to consider other types of amenities also, as coastal resorts have diminished attraction outside the main summer season. Visitors outside the peak season are increasingly of the "special interest" type, seeking active sporting holidays such as game-shooting, pony trekking, hunting, angling and golf, as well as national monuments and places of historic interest, and they can thus be attracted to inland as well as coastal tourist centres. A major increase is expected in motoring tourists from Britain during the next few years as a result of the improvements in the cross-channel services. The motoring tourist will circulate extensively and will expect to find inland places to visit for interest sake. I am, therefore, asking Bord Fáilte to undertake the planning of a new resort programme with these criteria in mind.

The introduction of a new scheme involving new centres would obviously involve the provision of additional funds. It is not possible to make any precise estimate at this stage of what funds would ultimately be required but I am proposing to make provision for a sum of £750,000. Expenditure from this fund will be authorised annually in the light of the availability of capital moneys. Should the financial position permit relatively early exhaustion of this fund, the Dáil will be asked to increase it in due course. The Bill, therefore, provides for the raising of the existing limit on the resort development fund from £1 million to £3.25 million—an increase of £2.25 million, of which £1.5 million is in respect of the completion of the present programme and £0.75 million to provide for a second resort programme.

The Bill also provides for the raising of the limit of the amount which may be provided in the form of grants for the development of holiday accommodation. Provision was made in the Tourist Traffic Act, 1959, for the payment to Bord Fáilte of amounts not exceeding in the aggregate £500,000 for this purpose and this limit was increased to £1.5m. by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1963. From these funds grants have been provided by Bord Fáilte for the construction of additional holiday accommodation, the improvement of existing accommodation, the provision of indoor and outdoor entertainment facilities for visitors and the provision of staff accommodation.

The grants, which amount generally to 20 per cent of the cost of the works subject to certain maxima, have stimulated a considerable amount of hotel development involving a total investment of approximately £10 million, including the grants, over the past five years. The scheme of grants was revised in February, 1964, to provide for increased assistance for new accommodation in resort areas and the grants were extended to include guesthouses providing at least ten guest bedrooms. Provision was also made for assistance for youth hostels and other categories of visitor accommodation such as colleges or other institutions catering for groups of visitors during the holiday period.

The amount issued to Bord Fáilte at 31st March, 1965, out of the existing £1½ million fund for holiday accommodation was £1.166 million and the sum voted for the current year is £255,000. The position at the end of the current year will, therefore, be that £1.42 million will have been expended, leaving a balance of only £79,000. It is, accordingly, necessary to raise the limit of the existing grant fund in order to provide for the continued financing of accommodation development.

Despite the expansion of accommodation that has taken place, it is clear that further expansion is necessary to accommodate the increasing number of visitors that are being attracted to Ireland each year in accordance with the Second Programme target of doubling 1960 tourist income at constant values by 1970. In recent years we have been recording an annual increase of 500 to 600 registered rooms, not counting rooms in supplementary accommodation such as boarding houses, private houses, etc., but a recent assessment of the position carried out by Bord Fáilte following detailed investigation, revealed that a far greater rate of increase will be necessary if the 1970 target is to be achieved. We must therefore continue the scheme of grants for a further period.

It is impossible to make firm estimates of what grant commitments will amount to as this will depend on the rate of investment by the hotel industry itself. The proposal in the Bill is to raise the limit on the amount which may be provided for holiday accommodation grants from £1.5 million to £3 million. This provision, like the provision about resort development grants, is of an enabling nature. The amounts to be provided in any year will fall to be voted by the Dáil in the normal way under the Vote for my Department.

Apart from the special funds for accommodation grants and for the development of major tourist resorts the cost of administration and general activities of Bord Fáilte are met from an annual grant-in-aid. From this grant-in-aid the Board are required to meet the cost of overseas publicity and advertising and a wide range of activities, including improvement works at minor resorts, access works and other improvements at places of historic or other special interest, assistance towards developing angling tourism and other sporting attractions, assistance to hotel staff training schemes, grants to meet interest on loans for accommodation and resort development and promotional work in connection with festivals and international conferences.

Up to 1961, this grant-in-aid was subject to a limit of £500,000 in any year but this limit was removed by the Tourist Traffic Act, 1961 and replaced by the provision of a global sum of £5 million, the intention being that for a limited period the level of State expenditure on the development and promotion of tourism would be substantially increased. It was indicated at the time that, on the basis of annual provisions related to the then current requirements, the sum of £5 million be expected to meet requirements for a period of seven years.

Circumstances have since made it necessary to modify the objective of allocating the £5 million over a seven-year period. Increased interest grant commitments, resulting from the increased rate of investment by the hotel industry in the development of holiday accommodation, made it necessary initially to reduce the period to six years and the annual grants-in-aid to Bord Fáilte up to and including the financial year 1963-64 were allocated on the basis of a six-year period. The grant-in-aid for 1964-65 was, however, increased very substantially to allow Bord Fáilte to initiate a programme of increased activity, particularly in overseas publicity and in marketing. This was necessary because of the growing competition in international tourism, because of the great importance of tourist income in the national economy and particularly because of the formidable target set for tourism in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

At the beginning of the current financial year, the amounts issued to Bord Fáilte were just in excess of £3.5m. and the sum of £1,847,000 voted for this year will bring expenditure above the £5m. limit. This renders it necessary to enact new legislative provisions to cover the Board's future activities. The fact that the statutory limit is expected to be reached very shortly makes the enactment of the present Bill a matter of urgency.

It would be difficult to work out in advance a rigid programme of expenditure on tourism. The amount to be provided in any year will depend on the progress made towards the achievement of the 1970 target and also, of course, on the availability of resources. I am proposing, therefore, to depart from the concept of any fixed limit. Accordingly, the Bill provides for the deletion of the existing limit of £5m. contained in the Tourist Traffic Act, 1961, and does not substitute any new limit. The position then will be that in accordance with section 2 of the 1961 Act the amount to be provided to Bord Fáilte in any year will be determined by the Minister for Transport and Power and the Minister for Finance and will be included in the annual estimates. There will be no diminution of the degree of control by the Dáil as the money will form part of the Vote for my Department which will come before the Dáil in the usual way.

As I have already mentioned, the Second Programme for Economic Expansion aims at doubling income from tourism between 1960 and 1970, in terms of constant 1960 prices. This is a formidable target and represents an average annual increase of 7.2 per cent compound over the ten year period. When the Second Programme was adopted in 1963, this rate of increase had not been achieved and consequently the actual rate required from 1963 onwards to double the 1960 income was in fact 7.8 per cent. It was recognised that competition from other countries was increasing, that the target could not be regarded as an automatic projection of a previous trend and that active promotion and the provision of adequate Exchequer assistance would be necessary during the period of the Second Programme if the target was to be achieved.

The actual income from tourism, including income earned by Irish carriers, in 1960 was £44.2 million. Deputies will have seen from the Bord Fáilte annual report for the year ended 31st March, 1965, that the income for the year 1964 amounted to £68 million which in terms of 1960 values represented £57.4 million. These figures indicate that the increased promotional activities of recent years are showing results and that if the present rate of increase can be maintained, the 1970 target of £88.4 million in 1960 values will be achieved. There are no grounds for complacency, however, and continued efforts will be necessary in the shape of promotional activities, resort development and provision of accommodation to maintain and provide for the required increase in tourist traffic. With the increase in the number of visitors to the country the services provided at local level and the interest and enthusiasm of local enterprise take on great importance. The new regional companies have provided a new impetus for local and regional activities and I would like to take this opportunity of saying how valuable is the contribution of the regional companies—the officers and members and all who co-operate with them—and I have no doubt that we can look forward to the continued growth of this excellent work.

Deputies are, I am quite sure, aware of the important contribution which the tourist industry makes to the country's economy. Income from tourism for the year 1964 represented more than one-sixth of the country's total overseas income on current account for that year. It is the largest of our invisible exports accounting for nearly 50 per cent of such exports. In comparison with visible exports, tourist income was second in importance only to food, drink and tobacco in 1964 and exceeded the income from exports of live animals for that year by more than £1 million. An important feature of the tourist industry is that it is primarily based on domestic resources, involving little dependence on imported goods. Because of the decentralised character of the industry its benefits extend to all parts of the country and it is an important factor in assisting the less developed areas of the West and South.

I am confident that as a result of the increased promotional activities of recent years and the improvement in travel facilities, the upward trend in tourist traffic to this country can be maintained, provided the necessary resources and facilities are made available. The principal purpose of this Bill is to enable these resources to be provided and I accordingly confidently recommend the Bill for the approval of the Dáil.

This is a very important measure and I would say it comes before the House at an opportune time inasmuch as it precedes the annual Estimate. In the course of his speech we were warned by the Minister that certain moneys will in future appear in the Estimates rather than as hitherto arranged.

Tourism cannot be regarded as anything but important in our economy. It comes second—indeed, there have been times when, as the Minister said, it exceeded the export of live animals—in order of importance in the economy of this country, agriculture coming first. It is important, therefore, that money be made available but, side by side with the availability of that money, there must be careful planning to ensure that the money will be spent not alone in those areas geographically likely to produce the best results but wisely at all times. That is a precept readily accepted, I think, by all.

This Bill contains a few widely different sorts of provisions. The first relates to caravans and caravan sites. I appreciate the effort at tidying up through the medium of planning and sanitary services by the Department of Local Government. There should, I think, be a very close liaison between the Ministry of Transport and Power, and particularly Bord Fáilte, with the Department of Local Government, but I am not so sure that this onslaught, as I call it, on caravan sites legislatively, apart altogether from the planning and the sanitary side of it, is desirable at the present time. I think it would be better if Bord Fáilte worked by themselves, without the aid of a provision such as this, with the Department of Local Government in relation to planning and the sanitary side of the matter. I take it, however, that Bord Fáilte have gone into this matter with great care and are now seeking to have camping sites registered under a wide variety of names. I do not know that the names I have read will include everything or whether there will be a way out, but I should like to know whether this register will carry with it the obligation on the part of the owner of the ground upon which caravans are either permanently parked or may be parked to pay a fee to Bord Fáilte in the same way as hotels do. I should like to be clear on that at the outset. The inclusion of the names of the people who have these sites in Bord Fáilte brochures will, of course, be valuable to the owners of the sites, but I should like to know whether they will as a matter of course have to pay for that inclusion.

The Minister is quite right when he talks about standards and the necessity for them. Standards are necessary not alone in the tourist industry but in all industry. However, I would be very careful in this regard because the Minister then goes on to talk about the necessity for inspection and for grading. A considerable amount of irritation is caused in the hotel industry by inspection and by subsequent grading. The resentment does not spring from the actual result but rather from the method of obtaining that result. Some Bord Fáilte inspectors make themselves, according to the information at my disposal, particularly objectionable. That applies to some of them, not to all. I suppose it would be hard to find perfection all round but, nevertheless, everything that gives rise to irritation in an industry such as this should be wiped out forthwith and the people responsible, the executive heads of Bord Fáilte, should be on the look out for anything that is objectionable and accept the principle that their officials must not necessarily be always right.

With regard to guaranteeing loans and so on, this arose last week or the week before on other Bills with reference to other currency. I take it the same principle is being applied here.

The Minister's enthusiasm for regional tourism organisations is an enthusiasm I do not share. Neither do I deprecate anything that is being done but there are organisations which not alone I but other people are watching with some apprehension and not a little caution. We are living in an age of management and management consultancy in which great stress is placed not alone on the necessity for planning but also on the ability to plan. While I do not propose to go into the matter at great length here, I am having some inquiries made—some are completed—into the manner in which regional tourism directors or managers have been chosen, particularly from the point of view of lack of previous experience, certainly in tourism and, generally speaking, lack of experience in administration of any kind. If what I am told is correct— that they did a rapid course in either Bray or Greystones shortly after appointment—that does not seem to me to satisfy the general trend towards management. I shall leave it at that for the moment. I shall be able to deal with all of them when we come to the Estimate.

If we are serious about the spending of money on tourism and the development of tourism to the point at which we will reach the target set out in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, then we must at every level of this industry not alone seek for but get competence, and particularly at the executive and administrative levels. That competence can only come from training and experience. I know of at least three cases where neither the training nor the experience was available from the persons chosen.

That is the critical side of the picture. I want to say, on the other side, that Bord Fáilte have done great work in the development of major resorts. I speak for a few of them, particularly of what they did at Keem Bay, Achill, in my constituency. I have seen their efforts in the various places mentioned by the Minister. They certainly did not spare any effort in preserving the scenic beauty of Keem Bay and in making it more readily accessible. It is a tremendous job. It is a sightseeing amenity in itself, apart altogether from the fact that the work they have carried out makes the splendour and grandeur of Keem Bay more readily accessible. I do hope that the planning and sanitary authorities in local government will not allow the very fine vista that has been created by Bord Fáilte to be upset or its value decreased as a tourist resort and amenity.

Waterways have been mentioned and, in particular, the Shannon. I wonder if Bord Fáilte would concentrate on the establishment of safety points and radio telephonic communication in relation to the Shannon, particularly at the points where there are lakes. The whole country was shocked this year by the awful tragedy in which a father and two sons lost their lives. Admittedly, the weather was bad and navigational difficulties at their very worst. It has occurred to me and to others that some kind of radio telephonic communication with points on the mainland might have been of some assistance. That is certainly something that should be considered with a view to trying to avoid tragedies of that kind. I do not think that we can go too far in trying to secure safety measures for persons using waterways. I throw out that suggestion. I do not know how practicable it is but it should be examined.

In view of the shortness of the tourist season, the provision of indoor recreation facilities is another matter that should get prior attention. At seaside resorts younger people find a rainy day a bit much and we do have the odd rainy day. People who are building hotels should provide playrooms. I do not mean nurseries; I mean rooms where billiards, snooker and other indoor games can be played. That suggestion should be made to hoteliers. It might not be too difficult to assist them. If people are driven indoors by wet weather, there should be some indoor activity in which they can engage.

While I notice that the Minister is anxious to delimit the amounts provided in some way and to increase them in annual Estimates and that the Dáil will have control over them, that is a target that should be set but it must be made clear that while increases are being provided for, £1 million to £2½ million and so on, that money is not available at the moment to people who would start in now to look for it. It is probably a part of long-term planning. People should not be given to understand that there is money readily available for them as from the passing of this Bill.

The use of colleges for groups is a feature that should be pursued. There are many excellent places that could be used during the summer. Bord Fáilte should make inquiries from the principals or boards of management of these schools as to their availability. They may be doing that. It should be made more generally known to overseas groups that these places are available. I have taken part in a number of conferences abroad organised by philanthropic bodies who had taken over boarding schools for the purposes of the conferences. I have known this to be the case in Switzerland and in France. That could be done here. These boarding schools have the equipment, the accommodation and the amenities required by large groups of people attending conferences.

On the question of the expenditure of money abroad on marketing and advertising in competition with other countries, I would suggest that our greatest tourist reservoir is Great Britain. There is a large population there. The holidaymakers have money to spend and they are good spenders. We can succeed in getting only a certain number of American tourists. We have not got what would be called the top-class accommodation that most Americans seem to require. We have got in the main middle-class accommodation, the modest, moderate accommodation, modest in what it represents and moderate in its charges. That is the area where our greatest hope lies for increasing tourism. I do not think that travel agents meeting in Hong Kong or anywhere else are greatly beneficial to this country's tourist industry. I am not complaining about the fact that representatives of Bord Fáilte and kindred organisations attend conferences abroad. I am just wondering what the value of it is. There should be greater concentration on Britain, which has the population and the money.

I have said in this House many times that in the training of hotel personnel sponsored by Bord Fáilte emphasis should be placed on local dishes, not alone meat dishes, but fish dishes. It is largely a matter of presentation. An area, whether a big resort like Galway or Dún Laoghaire, or a small resort like Enniscrone, or some of the smaller villages in Achill. can become famous because of some special dish or some characteristic peculiar to it.

Speaking for my Party, on the whole, I welcome this Bill. There are many aspects of it that require minute examination, and that, of course, we will come to on Committee Stage. But, just now, having regard to the Minister's speech and his very full explanation of all the provisions in this Bill, I see no difficulty in giving him the Second Reading.

The Minister has taken this opportunity to give a pretty comprehensive but not too long review of the tourist industry, the experiences of the past and his optimistic hopes for the future which we all share. Everything that has been claimed for the tourist industry has, by and large, been correct. It is true that the industry is a big moneyspinner in this country but the main feature of it is its seasonal character. I suppose there is nothing at all we can do about that. However, it is unfortunate that those people who get their initial employment in the tourist industry—those in hotel work—have not an opportunity to work here after the season is over. They have to go away and away in this case is usually Great Britain or some places farther afield. Of course, many of them are not encouraged to stay for the next season because, unfortunately, the pay, in very many cases, is extremely small. The correcting of that situation, of course, is in the main the business and responsibility of the trade union movement but I am afraid there are some unscrupulous employers in the tourist industry at the present time.

An effort was made some time ago by Bord Fáilte, with much encouragement from the Minister, to extend the season, an extension always meaning that it should be extended into the month of September and some part of the month of October. That has not met with great success. It is generally accepted that June is by far the best month of the year as far as the weather is concerned. But, for the family who want to take a holiday away from their own home, it is out, because no family man or parents could ever contemplate taking children on holiday in the month of June, which is the examination month in the schools. It is a pity that such a good month is wasted because it is a month during which there is a fair amount of accommodation in the hotels. We have been talking about this for very many years. I think the Minister, as Minister in charge of tourism, should consult with his colleague, the Minister for Education, in order to see how best the school year could be revised so that families could go on holiday during the month of June.

I was one of the critics of the regional tourist bodies or companies to which the Minister referred in his speech and to which Deputy Lindsay has referred also. The Minister will recall that I was pretty keen on the formation of these regional companies but merely questioned the method by which certain of the members were appointed or selected. However, that objection which I and many more of my colleagues from different sides of the House had at that particular time has dissolved somewhat. I can speak only about my own part of the country and the regional company in the south-east seem to be going quite well and I should say, they are pretty energetic as well.

We have not done enough to promote the tourist industry from one point of view in this country. I do not speak about outside tourists; I speak about our own holidaymakers here. I remember a slogan in connection with holidays — I forget the title of the monthly or bi-monthly booklet produced which had a caption which read —"See Ireland first". The tendency in recent times, for those who can afford it, is to go abroad. Bord Fáilte have some function here in advertising Ireland to the Irish people. There are many people who have been in Spain, Germany, other parts of Europe and all over Great Britain who have never seen places 50 miles from their own home town. In view of our present difficulties in regard to the balance of payments, we should make a contribution in that respect next year, maybe, the year after, and indeed any time we have this particular difficulty in whatever degree we may have it. We should concentrate on trying to keep as many people as possible at home here. A friend of mine who was accustomed to going abroad and who spent his holiday here this year told me he was thrilled at what he saw in Ireland. He was also ashamed to admit that a lovely holiday such as this was on his doorstep and that he had not availed of it until then.

Bord Fáilte, whilst concentrating on trying to get tourists from abroad, should also endeavour to see that money does not go out of the country unnecessarily. They should try to persuade people from Wexford that Clonmel would be a good holiday centre and people from Deputy James Tully's constituency to go over to the West. There are, as I say, people who have been in Spain, Germany, France and all over Great Britain who still do not know the beauty of Killarney, Mayo, different parts of the North, central Ireland and also the south. Therefore, Bord Fáilte could do a very good job, particularly in our present circumstances, in including people to see Ireland first before they venture abroad. Every town in Ireland has its attractions, not alone for the foreign visitor but for the Irish as well who have never seen these places.

I am glad the Minister has realised the necessity for more money for advertising Ireland abroad. I cannot say I have travelled extensively abroad, but, when we see our publicity in Switzerland and other countries in Western Europe, we realise how very poor our publicity and advertising are when set beside the publicity for these countries in railway stations, on public hoardings and in newspapers. If we want to attract tourists, we will have to try to compete with these other countries on the same level of publicity and advertisement as these countries.

Here I am in perfect agreement with Deputy Lindsay. It has always been my view that the greatest potential for tourism in this country is Great Britain. The attractions are so obvious that there is no necessity for me to mention them here. Suffice it to say that the journey is short and the fact that the majority of our people speak the same language should be an attraction to the British tourist. We should concentrate on him to a very great extent.

The travel companies are doing an excellent job in this field of advertising. We know these travel companies, particularly in Dublin as well as in Cork and other parts of the country, are advertising to a pretty good extent in the British newspapers, particularly the British Sunday newspapers. Of course, they are doing a good job of work for themselves but, incidentally, they are doing it for tourism in this country. I know that many of their representatives have travelled, not alone in Great Britain but all over the world to get business for themselves but in so doing they are also helping the tourist industry here.

Apropos these regional companies, the south-east regional company is engaged in an excellent venture, the contacting of Welsh people to swop tourists. This is an excellent idea. I think we have got the better part of the bargain over the past couple of years. However, the Welsh are businesslike enough to catch up on that. By and large this business of encouraging people from Wales and from the other parts of Great Britain to this country is very good indeed. We had a very successful Welsh Week in Wexford town during which many features attractive to the Welsh people were staged.

The Minister ought to impress upon Irish hotels their special obligation to buy Irish at all times because the hotels are the main advertising centres for Irish products. It is embarrassing when in the company of visitors having a meal in an hotel one of them picks up a cup or a saucer to discover that it is made in Hong Kong, Great Britain, or some such place. The majority of visitors tend to turn up ashtrays only to find that they are not made in Ireland. This makes a mockery of the whole business of Irish tourism because when visitors come to Ireland, they want to see Irish made articles. If we want to advertise ourselves in the industrial field, we will have to show those tourists that our Irish hotels, which, as I say, are the focal point for tourists, buy Irish. Their tableware, furniture and ashtrays should be made in Ireland. As Deputy Treacy reminds me, our souvenirs should be made in Ireland. Souvenirs in Ireland have become a bit of a joke because so many of them are made in Japan or Hong Kong. Souvenirs have become a joke not alone in this country but throughout the world.

Hotels should also be induced to encourage the sale of Irish drinks, whether stout, ale or whiskey. There should be an obligation on Irish hotels, not alone from the point of view of tourism but from an industrial point of view to introduce, more or less in the role of salesmen, Irish products to visitors from abroad.

The Minister, in his remarks with regard to the registration of hotels, mentioned that hotel prices had to be more or less approved by him. I was glad to hear that, because I remember some time ago, about six months ago or it could be 12 months ago, he had occasion to take some Irish hotels to task because of the high prices they charged. He had occasion to say—I do not propose to give his exact words— that many of the Irish hotels were pricing themselves out of the market.

I think that is so in respect of a small number of big hotels. On the other hand, it ought to be said that in the majority of Irish hotels, that is, the ordinary hotels—I do not know what the grade is—the prices charged are very low indeed. They are much cheaper than one would get in many parts of the world. It is only in a minority of hotels that the prices are very dear. If the Minister says he has a responsibility to approve maximum prices, why did he make the speech with regard to the prices that certain hotels were charging? He could have done something about it if, in his opinion, the prices were too high.

I should also like to bring to the notice of the Minister the fact that many places are not registered hotels. I do not know what one would call them—you could call them guesthouses or anything you like. Many of them are undesirable establishments which advertise abroad. The solution is not very simple but there are some places in the country which do considerable damage by advertising certain facilities and prices, particularly in the British newspapers and entice people to this country. They offer them wretched service and charge them very high prices. They fleece them to some extent, and destroy the good name of the tourist industry in this country. If they want to be registered, they apply to Bord Fáilte. Bord Fáilte set certain standards and it is on those standards that it is decided whether or not the particular establishments will be registered. If they do not want to apply for registration, they can still carry on as hotels. They advertise abroad as "The Red Rose" or some such place and it is assumed by people who read those advertisements abroad that they are reputable establishments. When those people come over here, they find the services in those places are bad, the conditions awful and the prices not at all what they should be.

I had the pleasure of seeing only some resort schemes but as far as expenditure and the results are concerned, generally speaking, they were satisfactory. I can only talk about one or two places the Minister mentioned and I would say that the efforts of the local authorities, the Department of Local Government and Bord Fáilte were very well worthwhile. I have an interest in a scheme in my home town, the Ferrybank scheme, which does not seem to be making much progress. I do not say it is the Minister's fault. It may be the fault of Bord Fáilte or the local engineer but as one who has the main responsibility, the Minister might take some interest in it. This scheme was mooted about two years ago but so far not a spade has been put into the ground. I know there are planning difficulties but the money end seems to be all right. Two years seem to have been wasted in that no construction or building has been done. I know plans had to be prepared but two years, in my opinion, is far too long.

I should like to pay a compliment to the Minister. I do not know whether he deserves it or not or whether CIE should get it. I know the Minister has an interest in this matter. I refer to the improvement at Rosslare Harbour. An excellent job of work was executed there. I visited the place recently and I saw the cars being rolled on and off. The work was done very quickly. I also availed of the opportunity to talk to some of the people who brought their cars here and some who went out with their cars and they were extremely pleased. There are other improvements contemplated there, and if they are effective, I am sure they will do the tourist industry a tremendous amount of good and will do good to the image of Irish efficiency in respect of traffic.

The Bill is supposed to deal primarily with the registration of caravan sites and camping sites. I will not say a lot on this except that the Minister did not give very much information. Caravan sites and camping sites are now to be registered under section 2, subsection (c). The Minister will be entitled to make regulations regarding the general service in those sites, and so on, but he has not given us any idea what, roughly speaking, these regulations will include or whether or not they will be in operation by next year. The fact that we have not had caravan or camping sites in this country in recent years has been a loss to our tourist industry. There is no doubt in my mind about that. The local authorities, through the various county medical officers of health, have clamped down on those undesirable sites, and I suppose rightly so. Some of those sites are undesirable from the point of view of lack of necessary services.

The Minister says he will consult with the Minister for Local Government before he makes the regulations. I wonder why he did not mention the Minister for Health because, after all, general sanitation is the responsibility of the Minister for Health. I think the Minister for Health should make those regulations. We do not want too much consultation on this but the Minister for Health is certainly the person who should be consulted.

I am afraid I did not quite get the message about section 3. The Minister has a similar obligation here wherein he proposes in respect of transport generally and borrowing, that borrowing from outside, no matter in what currency, will be guaranteed by the State. I cannot understand how it applies in section 3. He will have to be concerned with dollars and francs. If it were a Bord Fáilte borrowing, I could understand it, but I cannot understand why we should be concerned about the issue of loans in any other currency to those who would look for them for hotels and things like that.

The Labour Party have no objection to the proposals in this Bill, but I would ask the Minister to bear in mind the remarks I made which are designed to ensure that the tourist industry will achieve the target which the Minister hopes to achieve so far as income is concerned by 1970.

I should like to mention the provisions in section 2 which control caravan sites. I think we can look forward to a tremendous increase in that traffic next year. Our improved car ferry service will mean that many thousands more British tourists will be coming here with caravans. While we all welcome this trend, we must be very careful to see that we will not have shanty towns around our seaside resorts. Down south last summer, I noticed a tremendous number of caravans. In some places they were not spaced very nicely and they could be the start of shanty towns which would be hideous and spoil the whole area. While this may be largely a matter for the local authorities, I think Bord Fáilte should co-operate to the utmost with these authorities to ensure that caravan sites and parks are properly laid out, with all the necessary amenities, so that when a British tourist comes here, he can park his caravan in a nice place, with all services laid on. I think this is the new pattern of tourism and I think it will develop very much indeed.

I also noticed down south that some towns have no town parks. It has been stated by other speakers that we should concentrate more on Britain for our tourists than anywhere else. I am inclined to agree that that is at least partly true. Something which is very dear to the heart of the average Englishman is a properly laid out town park. In Tralee there is a very nice park which has been praised by many English tourists, but in some of the bigger towns nearby, there are no parks. The English tourist likes to take scenic trips but he likes to come back and relax in a park, if it is properly laid out. It is deplorable that in some towns no attempt has been made to provide any kind of park. Perhaps in some towns there is an open space which is called the town park, but it is a barren space with no flowers or anything else. I urge the Minister to use his influence with Bord Fáilte to try to get some united action with the local authorities to provide town parks in places such as Killarney.

They should also provide bowling rings. Bowling is a very popular game in Britain today and we should spend money making such facilities available rather than spend it on grandiose schemes. We want to provide the simple pleasures for the people who come here. The average English person who comes here is a simple person. He does not want plush hotels. He wants to stay in a clean place where the food is good, and he wants the more simple pleasures of life. If we examined these facets of the tourist trade in an effort to attract the average Englishman and his wife, and if we gave them the simple things which they seek, we could improve that traffic very much indeed with very little outlay.

I welcome this Bill because I realise, as everyone else in this country does, the importance of tourism. The more we can do to encourage tourists to come to this country and to spend more money in whatever currency may be available the better for all. I could not agree more with what Deputy Corish said about the Minister and Bord Fáilte encouraging tourism by our own people in our own country. The Minister is in charge of CIE and he, more than anyone else, could encourage this, because if CIE co-operate and organise cheap tours to places of interest in various parts of our own country, we will be going a long way towards giving our own people a better holiday with better facilities and, at the same time, they will be spending their money in our own country.

Everyone who knows the country knows you can have a better time at home than anywhere else if you know where to go, and if there is proper transport organisation to bring family parties to the beauty spots. The Minister should give earnest consideration to that, because so far no one has been able to get families from various parts of our own country to go to our own resorts, whether inland or by the sea. The sooner that is done the better.

I want to ask the Minister how is the amount of money that tourism is worth to this country determined and in what manner? Can the Minister tell me does someone suddenly say that tourism is worth £70 million? I find it very difficult to imagine how this can be found out. I know questionnaires are handed to people who come in at Dún Laoghaire, Rosslare and elsewhere. They are asked the amount of money they have to spend. Many of them look on this as a joke and the answers they put down are certainly jocose too. I should like to know has the Minister any particular slide rule which will give the actual figure for tourism. I do not say that in any cavilling manner but it would be nice to know that tourism was actually worth £60 million, or £70 million, or whatever the figure may be.

The Minister could also do much to encourage local authorities down the country to provide amenities such as those mentioned by Deputy Moore. If there is one thing more than anything else people who are travelling complain about, it is the lack of public conveniences in towns throughout the country. I know there are difficulties in providing these conveniences. There are difficulties for the local authorities because the people in the various towns do not want public conveniences sited in the places where they might be of most use. The Minister and Bord Fáilte should encourage local authorities to persuade people in small towns to take a less restrictive attitude on this and we might be able to get around that aspect which would be good for the country as a whole.

I also think there is something in what was said earlier about charges in hotels being too high in some cases. In the main I think everyone agrees that most of our hotel charges are fair and the facilities provided reasonably good. If we have the "odd man out", as we say in my part of the country, then eventually that person is found out and the customer goes elsewhere. For the good of the country as a whole, and its reputation, if the Minister finds there are certain hotels which have overcharged, it would be well to whisper in their ears that they should mend their ways.

I welcome the Bill. I hope everything will be done to encourage the tourist industry.

I welcome the Bill. There is not very much in it. When the Minister talks about caravan sites, he talks more or less of the static caravan, the caravan which is permanently sited and people take it for the holiday period. This is going into big business in this country at the present time. I am afraid we may tend to overlook the other aspect of it, that is, the person who hitches a caravan to the back of the car and takes the family around the country for the purpose of having a cheap holiday.

I do not want anybody to get the impression that I am decrying the efforts of those who try to provide the proper types of amenities for the customers of the static or parked caravan but I should like to point out that it is no longer a cheap holiday for the person who takes a caravan parked at a site where there are certain amenities, perhaps a very good caravan and reasonable accommodation. At the same time, costs are going up. In the summer, particularly in July and August, costs are pretty high for the ordinary person. Therefore, the person who can get for hire or borrow a caravan which he can take along himself is in fact able to have a much cheaper holiday. What I want to convey is that I should not like to see the caravan site for the mobile caravan completely passed over.

In the area where I live, there are a couple of caravan sites. There is one very fine caravan site, with all sorts of amenities, for static or permanently-sited caravans. I know that, in the summer, this has resulted in a very big inflow of cash to the area. The people who come there are, I suppose, 90 to 95 per cent Irish. I think most caravanners find the same thing when they rent a caravan site. The people who come are, in the main, Irish people who move around to places like this on a holiday. The other caravan sites that are there are for the caravan which is halted on the site. I should not like the Minister to set down too hard and fast a rule about this because there is a danger that we will put the mobile caravan on to the side of the road again. If we insist on too drastic regulations, there is always the danger that people will not be able to meet the standards. As a result, we may close down the caravan site completely. Caravans will then park along the road again and, apart from being a traffic hazard, will be an annoyance to people in the houses near where they park. The Minister should watch that end of it.

I am sure the Minister knows of the situation whereby long-standing hotels in this country were written off because they did not meet certain requirements. I have in mind one small hotel in this city with nine bedrooms. For years, the proprietors had advertised it as a hotel. Then they spent over £2,000 on remodelling it. They made it into an excellent hotel, still with nine bedrooms. Bord Fáilte examined the hotel and decided it could not be classified as a hotel and, as far as they were concerned, it became merely a guest-house. They refunded the contribution which was paid. We had the ridiculous position that this building which had been used as and called a hotel for years became overnight a guesthouse because Bord Fáilte had too rigid an interpretation of the rules.

A few weeks ago, a man told me that he and his wife ran a guesthouse in the city last year. Not alone did they receive letters of commendation from satisfied customers from other parts of the country and from across the water but even Bord Fáilte themselves sent copies of some letters they received and indicated how glad they were that the people had received favourable treatment and were satisfied with their bargain. This year, they applied for registration as a guesthouse and were refused on the ground that they had not five bedrooms, but, in fact, only four. This sort of thing is very frustrating. While I suppose there has to be some type of regulation, at the same time, too rigid an interpretation of a certain set of rules, if applied to caravan sites, may do more harm than good.

I am one of those who have never accepted the figures given for tourist spending in this country. The Minister and I have had this matter out across the floor of the House. I do not propose to go into it now except to say that the figure taken from a sample of people coming into the country can be only marginally correct. I am told by some people that it is very accurate. I am not prepared to accept that at all. In this case, we are dealing with people most of whom already live in this country. I could not agree more with Deputy Corish and with Deputy Lyons that these people can be encouraged to continue taking their holidays in this country, which means a moneyspinner; it means an awful lot of money being spent here which otherwise might go abroad.

I do not agree entirely with Deputy Corish about the travel agents. Some of them have been circularising people, who they think might be interested, with brochures about other countries and have not bothered to slip in a brochure about the Irish resorts.

One of the things which will eventually do irreparable harm to holidaying in this country is this question of prices. Have no doubt about it that some of the hotels and restaurants in Ireland have gone completely screwy where prices are concerned. There are still in the city and throughout the country decent hotels and restaurants where you can get a good meal at a reasonable price but there are others where you cannot and where you pay a fantastic price, particularly if you speak with an out-of-town accent. If they know you are not a local, they appear to think that the sky is the limit. The prices some people are asked to pay in some of those places for very bad meals—they can hardly be called meals at all—are doing an awful lot of harm to the tourist industry and to the attraction of the types of tourists who would be prepared to have their holidays in this country. I know that if you go to the Continent, you may be charged fantastic prices for very bad food and that that can be quoted back to us when we make complaints such as this, but I do not think it is any answer to it.

Bord Fáilte have assisted Meath County Council in planning a park in Laytown. I was interested in Deputy Moore's reference to parks. Unfortunately, they have not given them very much except the plan. I think that if they gave a few £s more towards the setting-up of the park, it would be appreciated a lot more. The plan is excellent: there is no doubt about it. It looks very well, such as it is, but they could spend more.

Can the Minister say if there is any type of grant which can be given through Bord Fáilte to try to preserve an amenity? I have in mind portion of Bettystown where the sand has become cropped—what they call a burrow. Whenever the east wind blows, the whole area is covered with fine sand. There have been numerous complaints. It is bad enough when it happens in winter, when there are no visitors, but the fact that that can happen and does happen in the summertime is doing irreparable harm in an otherwise lovely area. Perhaps the Minister would say if there is any type of grant or assistance which could be given to try to prevent this sort of thing happening.

One final thing we had today during Question Time, and will have, le cúnamh Dé, later on tonight, was a discussion on the Garda Band. That band appeared in America last year and Bord Fáilte is on record as saying they gave Ireland £1 million worth of publicity. If it is decided finally to disband the band, would it be too much to ask the Minister if Bord Fáilte would be in a position to give some assistance to have it retained because the publicity given by the tour of the band last year did a great deal of good for Ireland. People who never heard of this country became interested because they saw this Irish band playing in America and in Canada subsequently. Perhaps the Minister might make a comment on that when he is replying.

I really do not know whether to welcome this Bill or not. I would welcome it in the ordinary course but when I find Bord Fáilte taking more control I abhor it. Any major project Bord Fáilte or their predecessors before them, the Irish Tourist Board, have ever tried, has been a failure. They started off by buying luxury hotels throughout the country, hotels for which we had no customers whatsoever and hotels which they were very glad to get rid of later on. The next gimmick they tried was An Tostal. We remember the hundreds of thousands of pounds spent on An Tostal. Where is it today? What good did it do this country apart from spending the ratepayers' money?

The next thing we heard of Bord Fáilte was in regard to their tourist promotion in the United States of America. To cater for the prospective tourists they provided hundreds of thousands of pounds for luxury hotels and neglected the small hotels, neglected the real tourist area from which we get our main tourists, namely, the Six Counties and Britain. Practically every paper you take up in the off season has some reference to a Bord Fáilte promotion in some part of the United States seeking tourists for this country. I wonder what is the actual economic advantage to this country of American visitors here vis-à-vis the tourists from Britain and the Six Counties? They will bear a very unfavourable comparison with our tourist influx from Britain which we have neglected down through the years.

Many of the tourists visiting our country come by air, and the first thing they visit is our airport at Dublin. If they visit the bar there they find they have to pay 3/4 for a small whiskey. We are trying to control the price of whiskey throughout the country but there is no mention of trying to fix the price of whiskey at the airport or the price of a meal either. If the airport is the front window of the country we should give it an image of the country and ensure that these exorbitant prices are not charged at the airport or at CIE tourist establishments. Again, in our principal tourist resorts where there is a CIE hotel, unfortunately it does not cater for the ordinary Irishman. It caters only for the plutocrats who come to stay there overnight usually as the guest of some Irish company seeking promotions abroad. These tourist hotels which, are financed by the rate-payers' money should be more amenable to the ordinary citizen and the charges should be much more reasonable than they are. I am certain that practically five per cent of the visitors who stay at CIE hotels are not Irish and very many of our CIE hotels are certainly not as full as they should be.

The Deputy is completely mistaken in his remarks.

In what way?

About the five per cent. He is absolutely mistaken.

I am speaking from experience. I know a number of hotels which are closed down for the winter by CIE. What happens at Mulranny?

The Deputy is only revealing the complete difference of opinion within his own Party on this Bill.

I am giving my own opinions.

I have listened to Deputy Lindsay, and I am now listening to Deputy O'Donnell with patience and forbearance.

I am entitled to give my opinion. The Minister came to my county in Bundoran to a dinner given by the Fianna Fáil Party. He said £100,000 would be spent by Bord Fáilte in a very short time. Not one penny has been spent on Bundoran other than a plot of land bought by a Fianna Fáil henchman at Bundoran.

That was not the fault of Bord Fáilte.

The Minister is well aware that one man in Bundoran wanted to spend £30,000 developing a caravan site and other amenities for tourists at Bundoran and he was turned down by the local authority, and the local authority were able to tell him there was a technical reason why they were turning it down. The real reason is that Bord Fáilte want to develop the property. This man said: "Let them develop it if they need it" but they have not told him yet whether they want it or not, and this very night they are meeting again in Bundoran with the local authority. This is another red herring to prevent the money being spent in Bundoran.

I do not mind the local authority controlling the caravan sites there but I object to Bord Fáilte controlling them. That is my principal objection to this Bill. The local authority have done a very reasonable job. We must get permission from the local authority under town planning before we can develop a site as a caravan site. We must comply with the sanitary authority; we must comply with the health authority and with the local authority. Having done all that, we must now come to Bord Fáilte and seek their permission for registration of that site.

Where is all this red tape going to lead us? Why can there not be one control, either the local authority or Bord Fáilte? I know the money people have spent in my own county, and not one penny of assistance has been given by Bord Fáilte in developing caravan sites. Bord Fáilte now comes along with this red herring in regard to registration of these sites, saying: "We will not allow you to register that site. Therefore, you may no longer use it other than for the statutory period" of 26 days or whatever it is under the Act. There should be just one authority governing the registration of caravan sites.

As Deputy Corish said earlier on, I cannot understand section 3 of the Bill in which reference is made to the guarantee of currency other than the currency of the State. Are we going to lend money to foreigners to develop our caravan sites? Is that the principle at the back of section 3?

Mr. Byrne

We are doing a lot of borrowing from foreigners.

We cannot borrow. We have had to postpone our American loan to 1st January, if we get it at all. Why should we have to give guarantees in respect of foreign currency to people who wish to develop sites here? Is that in relation to some of the Germans wishing to develop sites in the west of Ireland? Are we guaranteeing their loans from the banks? I cannot read any other interpretation into section 3, and I have heard none.

There is one other matter to which I would like to refer. It has been mentioned by Deputy Tully, that is the Garda Band. In my county, which is one of the premier tourist counties in Ireland, we have seen no Garda band or military band for years.

The Minister has no responsibility for that.

It does not arise on this Bill.

It certainly does arise. I am referring to tourist attractions and amenities, and I am suggesting to the Minister methods whereby he could make certain tourist areas more attractive and more enticing to the public. If one goes to Dun Laoghaire of an evening and there is a military band there, it is an amenity and an attraction. Why can we not have these bands throughout the country?

Donegal people are very musical. They can have their own.

They have, too, but they would like to hear bands from outside. We have our own Lambegs too, if the Minister knows what they are. The only method of transport into my county at the moment is CIE, and I have had complaints about the type of bus in which they are transporting people. I had a question down in this House which the Ceann Comhairle ruled out of order because, he said, the Minister had no responsibility for the type of bus that was being used. This express bus service to Donegal was inaugurated by the Minister with the officials of Bord Fáilte and of CIE. A magnificent tourist bus was put on but it was only put on once. Since then we are back to the old bus with the hard-back seats with our knees hitting our chins, and it takes 4½ hours to get from Dublin to Donegal. During the winter, the tourist bus is being reconditioned and remodelled for our plutocrats in the summer but our unfortunate Irish citizens will not get sitting in it. If the Minister wants to bring tourists to Donegal, he should ensure that CIE put on a better type of bus.

Better buses have been put on.

I am referring to the type of seats in the bus.

Better buses have been put on recently.

I hope so, and I hope I was responsible for it with all the noise I have kicked up about it on several occasions. If we want people to travel by bus we must give them comfort during the 4½ hours.

The Deputy is the only person who has complained.

I never sit in them. I am merely the mouthpiece of people who have come to me with complaints about the type of bus in which they travel. I would appeal to the Minister to keep some stricter rein on Bord Fáilte or else to become a prodder of them so that when they are going to do something they will go ahead and do it.

With the exception of Deputy O'Donnell, the Bill was received with very constructive criticism, and there was the clear implication that there was general approval of Bord Fáilte's activities in regard to the promotion of tourism.

Deputy Lindsay asked for information in relation to the nature of the planning for caravan sites. Quite obviously, the sanitary services come under the general regime of the Minister for Local Government and the local authorities. This also applies to health regulations. The location of caravan sites comes, in the first instance, under the local authorities in relation to the 1963 Planning Act, but Bord Fáilte will control the registration of a caravan site in regard to its operational character, and if there is some lack of complete control in regard to sanitary services because of the remoteness of the site or if the local authority are not following the regulations too closely, Bord Fáilte would have an interest in the character of the sanitary services on the site.

The operation of caravan sites will relate to the space between caravans within the site, the actual condition of the tracks within the site, the question of whether there is public lighting at certain hours within the park and the nature of the services provided by the owners or the companies operating the sites. That would relate to the removal of waste, the provision of water, the removal of litter and whether a central service block exists which may include sanitary accommodation with water laid on—anything from a launderette service to a playroom for children in wet weather. A variety of central services can be provided which are not essential to all caravan sites but naturally the grading of sites will relate to the provision of these services. The fees charged by the owners of caravan sites will have to be approved by me. They have not yet been settled and it can be taken for granted that they will be reasonable.

Deputy Moore spoke about the necessity for the application of good standards. I entirely agree with him. It is absolutely essential, if we are to preserve the scenic beauty of our land, to have certain controls in relation to caravans and their siting. I am sure all Members of the House can recall long stretches of mountain scenery or beach where the siting of a caravan park can make all the difference, so that careful siting is of importance. Very often the planting of trees around a caravan park can make all the difference between the preservation and the despoliation of the surrounding countryside and Deputy Moore can be satisfied that Bord Fáilte are keenly aware of this.

Deputy Lindsay suggested that sometimes registration inspectors of Bord Fáilte irritate. They are absolutely bound to irritate if they are to do their work well. The standards of hotel accommodation, particularly the sanitary services, are improving. I go around the country and I can see the improvement, but there is still further room for improvement. Therefore, Bord Fáilte inspectors are bound to irritate but they must not be permitted to do so wrongly, and in that I agree with Deputy Lindsay. Knowing a good deal of what goes on in relation to hotel inspection—through hearing representations from people who object to Bord Fáilte decisions and hearing reports from reliable people—I would say that Bord Fáilte on the whole are as lenient as they possibly can be.

I encourage Bord Fáilte to be even stiffer in regard to the fundamental rules associated with the grading of hotels. I have to agree with Bord Fáilte that a hotel should be given a period in which to show improvement before it is downgraded, but I feel they are reasonably lenient in their attitude and occasionally I have to ask them to be as tough as they can in order that standards will be preserved and improved.

I was glad to hear Deputies praise the work of the regional companies. They have been in operation for only 18 months and splendid work has been done in terms of information offices opened, inquiries answered, a system for booking hotel accommodation organised for people who seek accommodation and have not booked in advance, the provision of regional guides in some areas. Above all, co-ordination between regional companies and the local associations is of very great importance. I know of a great number of local associations that received help from regional companies and directors. Their job of assessing the local tourist potential is of very great significance.

They also have the job of looking for fresh accommodation which is largely of the moderate price variety, encouraging people to keep visitors, to make available two or three beds, to take a catering course in the vocational school, pointing out to householders the tourist potential of particular areas for angling of one kind or another and encouraging them to register with Bord Fáilte for accommodation in the unregistered list, if not suitable for registration in the registered guesthouse list.

I was also glad to hear Deputy Lindsay's praise for the Bord Fáilte work in Keem Bay and I quite agree that every effort must be made to preserve the beauty of such places as Keem Bay, which I know very well. For that, the help of Deputies and of all people with a sense of the needs of tourism will be required in future because many people will want to build houses and shacks and bungalows dotted irregularly along every beach and around every cove in Ireland. We shall destroy the country unless very great care is taken in planning. When I hear criticism of certain local authorities who at present appear to be unduly conservative in their attitude, pending the making of a final plan, I hope those who criticise realise the necessity for conservatism in regard to these matters. If there is a stretch of beach a half mile to three miles long obviously there may have to be a building site at some point along the beach. Equally, some part of the splendid isolation of the beach must be preserved. Most Deputies will appreciate the necessity to support those who are attempting to plan the scenic amenities of the country in an intelligent way.

Deputy Lindsay referred to the Shannon disaster when some people unfortunately lost their lives while pleasure boating. The Shannon guide clearly shows markers on the Shannon to enable navigation to be carried out safely. I think Bord Fáilte will be considering whatever safety measures are necessary which they are capable of fulfilling.

The Deputy also spoke—quite rightly—of the need for indoor recreation in many areas. Grants for such amenities are available from Bord Fáilte for hotels and, in connection with the resort scheme, grants are available for specific centres in resort areas. If a 20 per cent contribution is made by a local development association, by a local company or a local authority, Bord Fáilte are prepared to give a very adequate grant towards civic centres of that kind where among others there could be facilities for the recreation of children during bad weather.

Deputy Lindsay also spoke of the need for inexpensive accommodation. The House will be glad to know that there are between 5,000 and 6,000 unregistered rooms recorded in Bord Fáilte lists, advertised abroad and known in particular to the information offices of all the regional companies and these were availed of.

There is one information office outside Drogheda, at Newgrange, and there is no telephone. It is not a very sensible place to put the information office for the area.

Perhaps not. Some of the information offices I think must be reviewed in any case by all the regional companies. The House will be glad to know there are 95 farmhouses on the Bord Fáilte list as suitable for tourists.

Deputy Lindsay spoke of the very great need to encourage British tourists to come here. If he reads the annual report of Bord Fáilte, he will see that a very considerable advertising and promotional campaign is carried out in Britain. Travel agents are brought over here. Last year there were 1,600 calls on British travel agents made from various Bord Fáilte offices in Britain and 355,000 English people saw films of Ireland and there was a very large number of lectures to anglers' associations. There were also two tours of Britain in which 17 Irish travel agents accompanied Bord Fáilte officials to visit British travel agents. Deputy Lindsay will also see in the annual report that the advertising appropriation for Britain was very considerable.

We are getting more American visitors. The number went up by 43 per cent from 1963 to 1964, whereas the number of American visitors to Europe went up by 13 per cent.

What would that represent in figures?

I think the amount spent was between 17,000,000 and 20,000,000 dollars. American visitors spend more than English people, particularly if they take the Aerlínte service to Ireland, and the grade of accommodation at the hotels where they stay tends to be higher. They also spend more in the shops. On the other hand, English visitors spend very freely in relation to their incomes and are very welcome among us. On the whole, I think Bord Fáilte have a balanced attitude, making quite sure that there is adequate promotion in England and at the same time encouraging visitors in proportion from other parts of the world.

Deputy Corish spoke of the need to extend the tourist season. Every effort is being made to do that and special publicity is used in the case of certain regions to encourage people to come to see the beautiful autumn scenery. There is the June holiday plan carried out by Bord Fáilte to encourage holidays is June.

Could the Minister persuade the Minister for Education to close the schools in June?

I have tried to secure some kind of co-operative consideration of that matter but I understand there is considerable opposition by school authorities still towards changing the ending of the school period. I shall approach the Minister for Education again in regard to this. In view of the very great changes taking place in educational policy, I hope we shall have a changing attitude in regard to that matter also.

Specialist interests that have been encouraged by Bord Fáilte and the regional companies such as golf, racing, angling and ancient monuments all tend to spread the season. There are many places in Ireland where hotels were almost completely full even towards the end of September and the season has actually spread. I cannot remember exact figures but the number of cars that came over in June this year was something equivalent to the total number of cars that came in all the summer months five or six years back. The season must tend to spread; otherwise, I agree it will be difficult to ensure it will spread sufficiently to enable the maximum number of people to be employed for a long period each year.

Deputy Corish spoke of the south-east regional company arranging the Welsh Week. That is a typical example of something far better done by the regional companies with the help of local funds and Bord Fáilte than by Bord Fáilte alone. In Europe, the national tourist offices would never be asked to organise an event of that kind. That would be done by the Lucerne Development Association or the Perugia Provincial Tourist Association. I am very glad to see that the regional companies are showing such great initiative in only the second full year of their existence in regard to the organisation of such matters as the Welsh Week.

Deputy Corish also spoke, quite rightly, about the use of Irish materials in hotel construction. I know Bord Fáilte do encourage the use of Irish motifs in decoration, the use of Irish fabrics and Irish tableware in their promotion of good standard of decor, ambiance and of construction in hotels. I go to a great many hotels myself and I think that, on the whole, a good proportion of Irish materials are used. Since, as the House knows, the standard of design of Irish tableware has been very much improved in the past two or three years, I do not think hotels have any excuse for not using Irish tableware and Irish fabrics, carpets and so forth. There is no reason why they should go abroad for them.

Deputy Corish also spoke about the Japanese souvenirs. Bord Fáilte have done their utmost—I know the detailed work they do in their souvenir section—to encourage the sale of Irish souvenirs made in good taste. I think that with the co-operation of hotels and with the interest taken by certain shopkeepers, the standard is not too awful. There may be a lot of very shoddy stuff sold but, at the same time, there are some very good souvenirs being sold. If one goes to the country which I shall not name, supposed to be the home of good taste, and which has given us most of the good taste we have, and looks at the souvenirs in their shops, I do not think we have done too badly in encouraging souvenirs of good taste here.

Deputy Corish and Deputy Lindsay spoke about hotel prices. I have not the power to control prices. The only power I have is to agree to the Bord Fáilte principle of registration whereby the grading of a hotel must relate to a degree to the prices charged. A B class hotel must provide the requirements of comfort, food and service that would correspond with the prices they are going to charge. The prices must be clearly marked and, if there are any changes during certain parts of the year such as the high season, those prices must be the maximum that can be charged. That is all the power I have to authorise Bord Fáilte to carry out these registration rules.

If hotels charge too much, they will price themselves out of the market. A few hotels have obviously been overcharging. But I think there have been more complaints about the prices of odd meals and snacks than actual hotel prices. The hotel—which, incidentally, is a very good hotel but which shall be nameless—which wishes to keep passer-by motorists from coming in to have a cup of tea and does so by charging 5/- for a cup of tea and one biscuit is doing it the wrong way. It really would be better if they put up outside the door they were not able to serve tea to people. There are other examples but they are not too numerous.

We now have had two reports by the Financial Times, which I suppose can be regarded as a reliable organ of opinion. In those two reports, they made a study of the prices of A class hotels and B class hotels in Europe and the cost of meals in restaurants. In both reports we came out astonishingly well. It is true to say there are possibly only two or three countries in Europe where prices for hotel accommodation in the various grades are noticeably cheaper than here. Those are countries which have had, up to now, a lower standard of living and, certainly, a lower standard of wages. There are exceptions to that. Quite obviously, Bord Fáilte have got to keep their eye on complaints made of excessive charging. But when I, for example, look through the half dozen hotel guide books in Europe, I really cannot see there is gross overcharging here if the hotels keep to the rules and charge what is stated in the Bord Fáilte Guide Book. Certainly, the prices for guest-house accommodation in general, I feel Deputies will agree, are pretty reasonable. A charge of seven guineas, eight guineas or nine guineas a week for full board and room is not excessive by European standards.

I already mentioned in reply to Deputy Corish that the Minister for Local Government is solely responsible for the rules in regard to sanitatation. That does not come under the Minister for Health in that respect.

Deputy Moore mentioned the question of town parks. Town parks can be pretty expensive and it may not always be possible for Bord Fáilte to engage in projects to provide them. Looking at the future over the next few years, there are amenity grants under the Minister for Local Government, there are the Bord Fáilte grants for resorts and then funds can be provided by local authorities. The three— the Minister for Local Government, the local authorities and Bord Fáilte —can engage in a tri-partite arrangement for the provision of amenities such as town parks. Quite naturally, however, the pressure on Bord Fáilte is very great. I think they will have to engage primarily in future on improvements that very directly relate to the servicing of tourists, the provision of entertainment centres for tourists, access roads and so on. If they have enough money occasionally to provide for town parks, no doubt they will consider it.

Deputy Lyons spoke of the need for encouraging tourism within our own country. Other Deputies spoke about that also. The regional companies should specialise in regard to that. They will have regional guides and they should do more than Bord Fáilte in encouraging Irish people to take their holidays within Ireland. I would point out to Deputy Lyons that CIE last year, as in previous years, arranged a tremendous number of tours by bus all over the country starting from a number of different centres. They organised scenic tours, the radio trains and other train services for tourists. They are doing their best to encourage people to stay in Ireland for their holidays.

A number of Deputies raised the annual doubt about the statistics from which we derive the income from tourism. The figures relating to the number of visitors and their expenditure are compiled by the Central Statistics Office and published annually in the June issue of the Irish Trade Journal. The December 1959 Bulletin gave a detailed description of the method employed. Now they get very definite information with regard to passenger movements from the shipping companies and the air companies. They engage in a sample passenger card inquiry which is undertaken at eight day intervals in respect of persons entering and leaving the State. The inquiry is anonymous. They very carefully scrutinise the cards in order to eliminate the ones that are written in fun. I can assure the House that I know enough about market research and marketing inquiries carried out by commercial companies in Britain and here to know that not only the English but we, Irish, with our different temperaments, are getting quite used to filling up cards about every conceivable matter. The Irish people are becoming accustomed to it. The British have become very accustomed to it. There is quite a compulsion among the majority of people to sit down and fill up cards carefully and accurately. They enjoy doing it. They do it about everything, from why they take Beechams pills to how much they spend in Ireland. It is becoming a universal habit.

I think we can say that the figures issued by the Central Statistics Office are reasonably accurate. If there is any basic inaccuracy I do not think it is a very large. Being very careful statisticians they would certainly check the increase each year in tourist income. I am quite certain that, if there are any errors of a small kind, they would be repetitive from year to year. That is well known to statisticians. There may be some element of inaccuracy, but they certainly get some idea of the increase and that, of course, is the important thing.

Deputy Tully asked about sites for mobile caravans. I am quite sure Bord Fáilte will carry out the registration on the basis that, if there is need for sites for mobile caravans, they will be provided. One could hardly publish a list of sites such as we already have, but without registration, in which the accommodation available would be given without indicating quite clearly that there are sites for mobile caravans. Quite obviously all this would have to be done in a balanced way.

The Minister misunderstood me. What I said was I hoped standards would not be set so high as to result in the closing down of existing mobile caravan sites.

I thought the Deputy was suggesting that Bord Fáilte might register caravan sites in which there would be no space for visiting caravans. I think the attitude will be that Bord Fáilte will obviously have to give time to people to improve their standards. As the Deputy will appreciate, it is possible to have what might be described as a lower grade type of caravan site, with all the basic essentials but none of the luxuries. I am sure Bord Fáilte will give time to existing caravan site owners to improve their sites and provide the basic facilities. I have never known them to be unreasonable about that sort of thing.

Deputy Tully also asked about some help from Bord Fáilte to prevent sand-blowing in Bettystown. I sympathise with the Deputy. I passed by there once when the sand was blowing and it was very unpleasant. Whether that would come within the limited scope of Bord Fáilte grants I very much doubt. That would be a matter, I think, for the local authority and the Minister for Local Government.

Because it is private property they say they have no right to do anything. Perhaps the Minister would look into it.

It is probably the last bastion of private enterprise.

I have, I think, answered all the points made. Once more, I thank the House for its kindly consideration of the Bill.

I take it that the traditional site available to a passer-by from smallholders by sea and lake will not be affected by this legislation.

I do not think it would be, no.

Except that the Planning Act makes it very clear that they cannot remain on them too long, but that is a good thing.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Tuesday, 14th December, 1965.
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