Vol. 219 No. 6
I move:
That a supplementary sum not exceeding £177,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1966, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of sundry Grants-in-Aid.
This Supplementary Estimate W—Castlecomer Collieries Ltd., is necessary to provide financial assistance to Castlecomer Collieries Ltd. to enable them to continue operations during the period of certain explorations for extractable coal; and also to meet certain obligations to the National Bank Ltd. incurred earlier by the Minister on behalf of this company.
As I informed the House on 15th July, 1965, the Castlecomer Collieries were being closed down in 1963 because of total uneconomic working. The Government were very concerned with the grave social problem which would follow this concentrated unemployment, and arrangements were made to assist the company in securing further accommodation from their bankers. It was thought at the time that the difficulties were only temporary and the aim of this assistance was to facilitate continuing operations while fresh workings were being investigated for increased output. The investigations were not successful and losses continued. The losses were met by loans to the company by the National Bank Ltd., amounting to £60,000 under a guarantee from the Minister for Industry and Commerce. These advances with accrued interest have now to be repaid and an estimated sum of £65,000 is sought for this purpose.
In spite of the continuing losses the Government decided that the abandonment of the industry without an exhaustive survey would not be justified, and the company engaged the services of a firm of international experts to make the examination. Their report, in brief, was that there was no prospect of the mine being worked on an economic or commercial basis. It did not rule out the possibility of finding coal in one particular area which could be economically extracted but considered the cost of the exploratory work would not be justified as a commercial risk.
In the light of this report there could be no question of the management or the State accepting responsibility for continuing heavy losses. The mine was, therefore, closed at the end of July, 1965 and all but a skeleton maintenance staff were notified that their employment had been terminated. At the time of this closure the company had urgent liabilities for wages, electricity etc. amounting to £16,500 and these were met by direct loans to the company from the contingency fund. It is now necessary to repay the advance from the contingency fund which was used for this purpose.
The Government were gravely perturbed about the social problem created by the closure and after consultation with the interests involved it was agreed to consider any proposal that had even the possibility of future viable working. The Irish Transport and General Workers Union, acting on behalf of the miners then had a survey carried out by a second firm of technical experts. This report recommended the reopening of the collieries while the area referred to in the earlier report was explored in order to determine if there were, in fact, any coal reserves which were economically extractable. The recommendation provided for the re-employment of about 190 men for at least six months.
Despite the considerable sums of public money already committed on social grounds, to maintain this enterprise in operation, the Government decided that the social considerations involved justified the acceptance of the recommendations in the further report, and in fact the mine was re-opened early in November. To provide for losses which may arise during these operations an estimated sum of £50,000 is sought, plus a contingency provision of £8,500. These sums together with the amounts already made available in the forms of loans and advances from the contingency fund give a total of £140,000.
It has been arranged that the various moneys involved will be made available to the colliery company as an unsecured loan, to be repaid if profits become available.
The House will appreciate the uncertainties involved in mining operations and it must be accepted that there is no certainty that the scheme now on trial will result in a situation where the continued working of the mine can be justified. I sincerely hope that the results will be favourable.
With regard to Supplementary Estimate R—St. Patrick's Copper Mines, Ltd.—offers were sought in 1954 for the State's interest in St. Patrick's Copper Mines, Ltd., from private mining concerns willing to undertake a satisfactory scheme of exploration and development of the mines, which are being maintained on a care and maintenance basis at a cost of about £50,000 per annum. The sum provided for care and maintenance in the 1965/66 Vote was limited to £12,500 as it was hoped that a decision as to the disposal of the mines would be made by 30th June, 1965. Various offers for the mines have been received and considered but no satisfactory arrangement for the disposal of the property has yet been concluded. I ask the approval of the House for a Supplementary Estimate of £37,000 to meet the cost of care and maintenance of the mines up to 31st March, 1966. I am hopeful that a satisfactory arrangement regarding the disposal of the mine may be finalised before that date.
We on this side of the House approve the decisions made by the Government and the path being followed in relation to these two enterprises. It is extremely sad that the position is that we are at risk in Castlecomer. I suppose in this particular instance this is something that cannot be laid at the door of the Government or anyone else. We must take action and try to defend the employment of the people there. There is nothing more that can be done. The second report that was produced as a result of the intervention of the men's unions must be regarded as very praiseworthy. This investigation, and the cost of so doing, is something to which the people of the district, and the people who have given their lives towards the furtherance of this enterprise, are fully entitled in any normal democracy.
We approve of and support the attitude taken in relation to Castlecomer but there immediately appears to arise a necessity for an assessment of our natural fuel resources and that includes not only coal but anthracite. From my own experience, I know that Irish anthracite produced, not in Castlecomer but not far away, in Ballingarry, is of the highest quality and produces heat in boilers at a far lesser cost than imported oil. The Government, the Minister and the Parliamentary Secretary should assess the fuel resources of the country so that if in the future there is any failure, which we all hope there will not be, there will be an opportunity to rehabilitate the workers elsewhere, and not too far away from their homes. Whatever the result of this exploration, these workers' jobs should be defended, and so far as we can help, the Parliamentary Secretary can be assured that this help will be forthcoming.
Again, it is rather a pity that the opportunity to dispose of the St. Patrick's Copper Mines did not materialise. Naturally we must try to preserve the very large Government investment there. A disused mine depreciates day by day because of non-usage and ordinary deterioration. We approve of the decision that since the mine was not disposed of, extra money should be provided to keep it going until the end of the year so far as care and maintenance are concerned. It does appear as if, because of the increase in the price of copper, the Parliamentary Secretary is right when he says there is a better opportunity now to dispose of it and it may well be that success will attend his efforts. I wish him well in this regard. We want to see these men working again and re-employment created there. Therefore, in this instance, it is a case of the ball being at the feet of the Government and of every support being given to them from this side of the House to defend the employment that is in danger in one instance and that is not there in another, though an opportunity for re-creating it seems to be introducing itself because of the increase in the price of copper.
We, of course, support the suggestion that money should be found to keep the Castlecomer mine going until the result of the survey is available. Like Deputy Donegan, I should like to pay tribute to the Irish Transport and General Workers Union for their action in carrying out a survey which resulted in the men being restored to their jobs. It is rather a pity that the Government did not take the necessary steps to have the survey carried out themselves. This is an example of something that could have happened, if the union had not taken the step they did. The mine was closed, the men were out of a job, and that was that.
While the figure required seems substantial, it should be considered, I think, in relation to the amount of money which those men would get if, in fact, they were on the labour exchange rather than in employment. I think the net cost to the Government will not be anything like the figure of £58,000 which is mentioned here. The decision to try to keep it going is a good one. If the necessary surveys throughout the country were carried out, it might be possible to switch the men to other mines where they could usefully be employed. I think it is a very good suggestion and should be acted upon.
It is rather extraordinary, in this context, that, while this action has been taken, we find, at the same time, that another firm producing fuel is letting men with long service go because, they say, they cannot get the necessary money to keep them going. I refer to Bord na Móna. I do not want to broaden the debate. However, Bord na Móna are at present letting go men with up to 25 years service on the grounds that they have no money and that the Government will not make the necessary funds available—for no reason other than the fact that the Government are short, and so on. That is something the Parliamentary Secretary might look into. It is a serious situation. While it is not as serious now as the Castlecomer situation, it could develop so that, where fewer than 1,000 men are now involved, the figure could be several thousand men within the next few months, if things do not improve. The Parliamentary Secretary would be well advised to look into the matter.
With reference to St. Patrick's Copper Mines, again, we must approve of the decision to maintain the mines in good shape. While it is true, as Deputy Donegan says, that, at the present time, the world price of copper is going up and, for that reason, there is a better chance of disposing of the mine on favourable terms, it must nevertheless be remembered that this is mainly because of the situation in Rhodesia and anybody who thinks that that situation will continue indefinitely is making a big mistake. Therefore, an effort should be made to conclude an agreement with somebody because the continued expenditure of £50,000 this year—I understand it can be an even greater figure—may not carry the mine next year. If that situation continues over a number of years, the Government will naturally attempt to recoup their losses and will have a far greater sum to try to recoup. Therefore, a quick arrangement should be reached. It would be more satisfactory to settle for a sum now because, after the lapse of a further 12 months, a very much greater amount will be required to compensate the Government for what they expended. In both cases, we believe the Government are doing what any sensible Government should do. I suggest that, for the time being, they are being sensible. They should spend this money because, apart from preserving the St. Patrick's Copper Mines, it is vital that the employment should be kept going. For these reasons, we approve of the Supplementary Estimate.
I do not know if I misunderstood Deputy Tully's opening remarks when he paid tribute to the Irish Transport and General Workers Union. However, he seemed to me to imply that there is some sort of basic reluctance on the part of the Government to come to the rescue of the Castlecomer mines which, as Deputy Tully probably knows, got into difficulties not only last summer but in the summer of 1963 as well. This trouble they got into was the result of a build-up of a great many adverse factors into which it is hardly necessary to go now. However, it is only fair to recall that, on each of these two occasions, when evidence was produced to the Government that the situation required their help, help was forthcoming. During the summer, when the Powell Duffryn Commission reported on Castlecomer, no contradictory evidence was then available. It is quite true to say that the local secretary of the Irish Transport and General Workers Union, Mr. Boran, took it upon himself to collect such evidence as was available to show that workable coal could economically be produced and he did so. I am sure Deputy Tully well appreciates that grounds upon which the Government could reopen the mines in Castlecomer were very avidly sought and that, when they were forthcoming, they were grasped, in spite of the fact that it involved fairly heavy financial commitments for them.
I want to take this opportunity of paying a tribute to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Seán Flanagan, for his part in the Castlecomer operation. I am sure I am expressing the opinion of my constituents, especially the coalminers in Castlecomer, when I say his visit to Castlecomer and his conversations with everybody concerned—management, union and men—were very much appreciated. I think, on this last point, that the establishment of close personal relations with the coalminers themselves is a very welcome departure indeed. I think one of the reasons Castlecomer found itself in the difficulties that arose was that—or so it seemed to me, at any rate—communications between the men, the union and the management left a great deal to be desired. I hope this situation will be remedied in the future: I am confident it will be. It would be a very serious matter if some divorce occurred again between the interests of management and the interests of the men.
While it is fairly widely recognised now that everybody in Castlecomer is involved, it would be most regrettable if the newly reopened mine ran into any difficulties because of problems about wages, or anything else, requiring full and thorough investigation being left without that investigation. It would be regrettable if a situation should arise in which grievances on the part of the men were not given proper ventilation. It is of the utmost importance now that there should be a close communication between management and men and that that close communication, having been established, should be maintained.
This present operation has been described as exploratory. It is important we should aim at success now in this venture. It is not sufficient to accept this project as a temporary rescue measure. We must get it into our heads, into the heads of management and into the heads of the men, that the future of Castlecomer depends on the success of this operation and any action by anybody prejudicial to this general objective of overall success could very well result in failure. I trust this general target will be borne in mind by everybody. It is not a temporary success or a partial relief we are aiming at; we are aiming at continued, successful coalmining in the area. On behalf of the people of Castlecomer, I want to repeat once more that we are very grateful to the Government for coming to the rescue for the second time in two years.
Do I understand the Parliamentary Secretary's statement to mean that he is not now negotiating with anyone and he is, therefore, free to negotiate with everyone who comes along?
With regard to Avoca?
Yes.
Negotiations are going on.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary free to open negotiations with a new prospecting purchaser?
I think so because none of the investigations has been finalised. One has reached a stage of fairly fine examination.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary reasonably hopeful?
He is not. That is why he has brought this in.
The negotiations are fairly well advanced.
That is exactly what I want to know. I want to know whether or not a new person can come in.
Certainly the door is not closed.
We all welcome this Supplementary Estimate. A deputation waited on the Minister for Industry and Commerce not so long ago and one of the points he made then was that he would have to face this House with a Supplementary Estimate and he would be put through the mill for providing so much money without having got the permission of the House. I assured the Minister then that, if he reopened the mines, the House would welcome any Estimate he cared to introduce and, judging by the reception this Supplementary Estimate has got, my words have been fully borne out.
The financial crisis arose in the summer of 1963 when the company found themselves unable to pay the men their wages plus holiday money, which was at the time a very considerable amount. I am pleased that the Government at that time guaranteed the company the money to meet their immediate requirements and to maintain the industry in production. The local people offered to contribute towards the immediate cost but it would have been very hard for them to provide, not alone the immediate cost, but money for continued operation. I was very glad the Government took over and guaranteed the bank over the next year or so.
During that two years' period, there was no reorganisation carried out. There was no capital development. There is no great hope, therefore, that the mine will become viable or self-supporting, although the company did manage to pay its way during the particular period. The company provides work for 300 to 350 men and their families. The mines mean a great deal to the district, which is one of the most populous in the country. The local authorities have provided serviced houses and so on. There are ideal educational facilities, both primary and secondary. Castlecomer town is absolutely dependent on these mines.
We welcome the development of our national resources. I am very happy to see the provision of £50,000 for exploratory work. I hope the work will prove successful and that the industry will be put on an economic basis. The decision to close these mines was announced the day before the Dáil went into recess. That was a regrettable action on the part of the Minister. I wonder was it true that arrangements were being made to have the men transferred to employment in other areas and did the Minister hope that by the time the Dáil reassembled the Castlecomer mines would be forgotten.
That is not so.
Apparently that was not without foundation because it was only due to the efforts of the trade unions, the development association and the local representatives that pressure was brought to bear. We are very pleased the mines have been reopened. We hope the reorganisation will be satisfactory. The Minister has a nominee on the new board and it is generally believed that these mines should prove an asset. The quality of the coal is the best in the country. With the balance of payments as it is, it is essential we should produce our own raw materials as far as possible.
Last week I asked the Minister if he had any proposals for an alternative industry in Castlecomer from the IDA and An Foras Tionscal and the Minister said that he had not received any so far. The people in Castlecomer were assured that the area would be scheduled as undeveloped if the mines closed down. So far the area has not been so scheduled. I saw a communication from the Minister to the local development association in which it was stated that, if an industry came along which would provide work in Castlecomer, An Foras Tionscal would treat with the proposed industrialists as if they were establishing the industry in an undeveloped area; they would get the same facilities. I welcome that.
One further point I should like to raise is that this month the principal users of anthracite duff in this country have written to all the suppliers of anthracite duff that as a result of the continuing downward trend in the main fuel costs, as and from 1st January 1966, the basic price for duff would be reduced by 14/- per ton to 45/- per ton. This would be a most uneconomic price. The firm is supplied with 14,000 or 15,000 a year and it would be a great loss to both the suppliers and the mines if this anthracite duff is not wanted in future. Not alone is there a reduction in the price but it looks as if they do not intend to use any further Irish anthracite duff.
This question was raised here in 1962 when the then Minister for Industry and Commerce, Deputy Lynch, was asked whether firms were going to use Russian oil. In reply the Minister stated that one firm was considering the use of Russian oil but this would not result in any reduction in the quantity of Irish anthracite duff being used by that firm. That was three years ago. Apparently there is an oil war going on in the world and oil is being dumped at very low prices. I believe this firm is getting oil from both Russia and Germany and one of the big oil combines has now cut out both of these countries dumping oil in this country. Will the anthracite industry here suffer as a result of this oil war in the world? The letter to which I referred means that these people will not be in a position to supply at that price, which is most uneconomic.
I would have put down a question in this regard but I only heard of it on Saturday. However, I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary now to give an assurance to the House, that, whatever about the use of oil, this firm will continue to use Irish anthracite duff as it has been doing over the past 20 years. This is a national firm working under licence from the Government, and I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary to give me that assurance. There are two ways of telling a person that supplies are not needed. You can tell him you do not want any more or, as was done in this case, state an uneconomic price. This fuel is most suitable for the requirements of the kilns used by this firm and I would ask the Minister to give the same guarantee that his predecessor gave in 1962, that this importation of oil will not result in any reduction in the quantities of anthracite used by that firm in the future. If these mines have not an outlet for the duff as they have had for the past 20 years it can make the mines uneconomic straight away and involve closing not alone Castlecomer but the other anthracite mines in the country.
I welcome this Estimate and I am proud to note the good reception it has been given on both sides of the House. It is a very encouraging sign and a sign of the times. There seems to be a more modern approach to things than there was heretofore. When I was a member of the Dáil a few years ago it was a very rare thing to hear mining discussed here at all. I remember advocating exploration work. As a result people got interested and at the time I gave every possible assistance to those people who contacted me. I would not like to claim much credit for what has been achieved but at the time I speak of there did not appear to be many people interested in mining or prepared to stake their reputation on there being any mineral wealth in the country. I was in Tynagh on the occasion of——
The Deputy must relate his remarks to the Estimate before the House which deals with two specific undertakings.
We are dealing with Avoca and Castlecomer.
I do not mind.
The Chair would object very strongly to the enlargement of the debate.
I was in the Avoca mines during the earlier period and I am aware of its history. When one takes on mining one takes on big business. It is very easy to be critical of it and of those who came before us, to point out the mistakes they made, but there were very few people then who were prepared to take the risk involved in such big undertakings in an economy like ours. There is no tradition for mining in Ireland. The sums that are mentioned in this Estimate— and it is only an estimate—are small sums when one considers mining ventures but now that we have established a reputation for mining and when we have geared our Geological Survey Office to the demands of the situation, it would be too bad if we started to put back the clock and if we were not prepared to gamble—if I should use the word "gamble" here at all—some of what we hope to make in the future of these things.
There is a certain amount of risk in any undertaking. It is a good sign that foreigners coming into this country in such large numbers have taken an interest in such undertakings and are helping us in many ways. It would be regrettable if we were not prepared to shoulder our part of the responsibility. I know the terms of this debate are narrow, but I am proud to see that items such as these can be so well received on both sides of the House.
I merely wish to say a few words in regard to the Supplementary Estimate dealing with the St. Patrick's Copper Mines in Avoca.
The Parliamentary Secretary mentioned that offers were sought in 1964 for the State's interest in these mines and he made it clear that the door is still open and that negotiations are at present going ahead so that anybody else interested can still be considered. My purpose is simply to urge both the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister to keep alive their interest either in retaining the State's interest in the mines or disposing of it.
In any event, I wish to express the hope that the people who have still some hope in the Avoca area that the mines may ultimately reopen will not be left in the position where they just do not know what is happening. I know it is not a matter we can reasonably expect the Parliamentary Secretary to deal with in any detail at a time when the question of negotiations is still there. It would not be fair to expect him to tell the House what type of commitments those who show an interest are being asked to undertake. It would not be reasonable even to ask him to discuss the precise details of the disposition of the State's interest in the mines.
My principal reason for speaking is to urge that the active interest of the Minister should be maintained in this matter. I know it is the popular thing to say that money has simply been poured down the drain in Avoca by successive Governments. It is probably natural that I, a Deputy in the constituency, should feel that is presenting a very one-sided picture of the operation and I do not propose to discuss it at any great length other than to say that if successive Governments who showed an interest in Avoca had done nothing more than give employment in the area it was a great asset to the people there.
Of course, they did more than that when the mines were in operation. The work carried out in the mines, even in the years immediately before they closed, played some part in our balance of payments. With the present fluctuations in the price of copper, it may well be that in the present period there could be considerable interest in mines such as St. Patrick's. The Minister and his advisers no doubt have considerable knowledge of that. I hope that whatever negotiations are under way at the moment will result in these mines being reopened. There is still room for considerable employment there. We all know that many of the workers engaged in the mines have naturally, in their own interests, sought employment elsewhere but I feel there is still scope for development and employment in Avoca.
I shall not delay the House. I am only too pleased to support this Supplementary Estimate. The Castlecomer Collieries, as we all know, were closed down just before the Summer Recess and it is in no small measure due to the pressure brought by the local committee and local representatives that the Supplementary Estimate comes before us this evening. I fully realise, being in business myself, that people are in business to make it pay. The coalmining industry in Castlecomer was subsidised by the Government during the past two years. Losses were something in the region of £60,000, speaking from memory. When representations were made to the Minister some months ago to have the mines reopened, we pointed out that though the losses had been met to that extent, at the same time the losses were not as large as they looked because, if you take the collieries from that town, Castlecomer becomes a ghost town. This Government, or any Government, must realise that revenue is collected in the town from taxes on tobacco, drink, the turnover tax on general food-stuffs——
Income tax.
From Pay as You Earn. In other words, the losses were not as great as they looked. However, that is by the way. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance earlier complimented the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce on the work he has done and for his visit to Castlecomer when he met the employees of the collieries and the people of the area generally. I do not wish to take away from that because I think it was a very good move on his part and I have the highest regard for him. However, I feel this Supplementary Estimate would not be before us now were it not for the pressure put on the Government by the local committee and by all the public representatives in the area.
It has been mentioned that the mines were uneconomical. If this Supplementary Estimate can succeed in giving constant employment to people in the Castlecomer area and if, as a result, the town is kept alive, I think the £140,000 provided for in this Vote will be money very well spent. I assure the Parliamentary Secretary that he need have no doubt that as far as the workers in the mines in Castlecomer are concerned they will play their part to ensure that the mining industry in Castlecomer will become a profitable business.
There is very little else that I can say except to welcome this Supplementary Estimate not alone for Castlecomer but also for St. Patrick's Copper Mines, because while I approve of grants being given to people coming into the country who will give employment, one of our first duties is to keep our people at home and our industrialists in a strong position to weather the present day storms. For that reason and also because it will keep our people from the emigrant ship I welcome this Supplementary Estimate and I hope it will not be the only Supplementary Estimate which will in the years that lie ahead ensure that Castlecomer Collieries become a profitable business and that the people in that area will have full and constant employment.
I can appreciate and sympathise with the views expressed by Deputies Crotty and Governey and also Deputy Michael O'Higgins in relation to what is contained in this Supplementary Estimate and what it proposes to do, but I want to protest if I may as a Deputy representing the constituency of Laois-Offaly about what is not contained in this Estimate. There is no proposal here to deal with the identical problem which exists in relation to another portion of the Leinster coalfields and which concerns the constituency that I represent and in particular the county of Laois. A short time before Castlecomer was closed down the coalfields in the county of Laois, in the parish of Mayo-Doonane, were closed and all the Deputies representing the two constitutencies, with the regrettable absence of the Parliamentary Secretary, Deputy Gibbons, met in Mayo to consider the problem.
I am sorry, but if the Deputy's remarks do not relate to the two specific undertakings in the Supplementary Estimate——
I anticipated that the Leas-Cheann Comhairle might say that and I want to indicate——
He said it to me anyway. I tried that and failed.
——that that being so, I must suggest that the money being moved here is not sufficient to deal with the problem outlined by the Parliamentary Secretary when he said that the Government were very concerned about the grave social problems which would follow concentrated unemployment. I want to indicate to the House that in Arless and Doonane and in that area there is concentrated unemployment as a result of the closing down of coalmines in the Leinster coalfield.
I am sorry, but I must remind the Deputy that it is relevant to refer to two undertakings only and anything outside that would be completely out of order.
Is the position then that I must deal with the fact that the Government now are merely concerned with Castlecomer and are not the slightest bit concerned about the unemployment that is taking place within one and a half miles of Castlecomer, with the unemployment that is taking place in Arless, Mayo and Doonane? Is it the situation that portion of the coalfield is now to be given a shot in the arm and that as far as the rest of that area is concerned no hope is going to be held out for it? It is wrong that a limited solution should be provided for this problem. I think I am in order in applying that criticism.
The Deputy has been out of order for a considerable time but I allowed him to travel along those lines in the hope that he would get back into order.
In supporting this Supplementary Estimate, as I do, I can express regret that it is a faltering step in the right direction but it is not the kind of solution that I would have liked to have seen applied. This problem of developing our national resources which are contained in the Leinster coalfields is something that should have received proper planning. It is perfectly clear that planning has not been applied to this problem and that a limited solution is now being put forward. The money which the Minister asks for must be voted to him but it is a matter of regret that he has not asked for more and that he has not dealt in a better way with this particular problem. It is true to say that in Castlecomer, and in the areas in the immediate vicinity, there are many families who depend entirely on the mining of coal for their existence. They have no other means of livelihood and for those who cannot earn their living from mining coal the only alternative is emigration.
I am sure I am not enlightening the House when I say that not far from Castlecomer many hundreds of people in the last six months have been forced to emigrate because they have not been able to make their living in the way in which they were accustomed to make it. I would like to have seen a courageous Minister tackling this problem of developing our coal resources on a planned basis instead of deferring, as is obviously intended by this Estimate, a solution to the problem until a later stage.
It is interesting to recall that in both Carlow-Kilkenny and Laois-Offaly when the last general election was being fought Fianna Fáil candidates said, or caused to be said, that if there were a change of Government the coalmines would close down. It is interesting to recall that, that having been said and the election having been fought and won by Fianna Fáil, the closing of the coalmines took place after that in the month of June in part of the coalfield and in July in Castlecomer. It is also notable that when other elections faced the Government, and in particular when local elections have to be fought all along the Leinster coalfield, this particular Supplementary Estimate is introduced. I do not know what effect it will have in the immediate vicinity of Castlecomer but I do know what effect it will have in Laois, because, whatever benefit is being given in or around Castlecomer, it will not extend into Laois and will not affect other parts of the coalfield.
However, for the half-loaf that is in it I and my Party are grateful. We feel it is due to the fact that there was when this closure took place a vigilant Opposition that this Estimate was decided upon by the Government It is a consoling fact to every miner thrown out of work, to every workman unable to earn a paypacket in Castlecomer and in that part of the constituency of Kilkenny that they had Deputies like Deputy Crotty, Deputy Governey and Deputy Pattison who spoke out when it was necessary to speak out. I only wish that those who came to the parish of Mayo included all Deputies. If everybody had come along at the invitation of the parish priest, including the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, I am certain the Estimate which is moved today would have included an Estimate providing for the reopening of the Laois mines. However, I support this motion.
It is always very pleasant when the House manages to achieve unanimity and I am thankful to the various Deputies who have contributed to this debate. It is absolutely necessary that the House and country should know the basis on which this money is now being asked of the Dáil, particularly in view of some of the speeches that have been made. In this connection I must say I always admire the facility of Deputy T. F. O'Higgins when he is in mischievous mood, but I think it would be undesirable that the impression he has given to the House should not be contradicted. The fact is that there is not, never has been and will not be a political or social justification for any Government to use the taxpayers' money in a hopeless cause. I do not have to repeat here the history of coalmining in the United States, in Britain and in this country because the House is aware of it. Indeed, only a couple of weeks ago it was announced in Britain that a further 150 mines are to close in the next couple of years. A complete reorganisation of coalmining had to be undertaken in the United States at a time when the industry was in grave jeopardy.
As far as Castlecomer is concerned, the Powell Duffryn Report was brutally frank and said there was not the slightest hope that coal could continue to be extracted economically. Obviously, this was creating a very grave situation in the entire Castlecomer area. I resent very much the statement made by Deputy Crotty, who himself was associated with the Department of Industry and Commerce in a responsible capacity a few years ago, that we in this Government were cynical enough to arrange the close-down at Castlecomer in the hope that the fate of the workers and of their wives and families would have been forgotten by the time the House resumed.
It looked like it.
That was cynical, unworthy and totally unfair. The truth is we did not own, never did own and do not now own Castlecomer Collieries Limited or any other mine, but when in 1963 the financial condition of the company became desperate the Government were hopeful that reorganisation of mining methods, of management and of manpower generally in the area would make the colliery viable again. When the Powell Duffryn Report appeared to put an end to any such hope, the Government were faced with a situation that there seemed to be no future whatever for the mine.
I am thankful indeed for the efforts made by the unions in connection with this and indeed the efforts by all Deputies of all Parties in connection with this reopening. I want to disabuse some Members of the House of certain misconceptions they appear to have. In this connection I am not trying to make political capital at all but merely to put the record straight. It appeared to me and the Minister, even though the Powell Duffryn Report was, as I say, so brutally frank, that inasmuch as this was a report commissioned by the Management of Castlecomer Collieries Limited and, therefore, not available directly to the unions and their members, the unions should be given an opportunity on behalf of their members of obtaining, if it was possible to obtain, expert opinion which would support the contention of individual miners with long experience in the area that there was, in fact, at least one seam from which coal could be extracted on an economic basis. In other words, that justice would have to be seen to be done. The initiative in that matter came from the Minister for Industry and Commerce and from me.
It transpired when the Bathurst Report came to hand that there was a hope that this particular seam would prove economic. But I must issue a warning that this hope can be sustained, and I now quote from part of the summary of the Report:
...only if a total new start is made by all concerned and management and labour co-operate fully in raising efficiency and lowering costs.
I should like to pay a tribute here to Mr. Conroy for the way in which he, on behalf of his union, publicly accepted this. He recommended to all concerned that every possible effort at increasing efficiency and removing workers who were in any way malingering or otherwise causing difficulty be made. All these steps, as well as streamlining management, had to be undertaken with a good heart, if there was to be a realisation of the hope expressed in the Bathurst Report.
The justification for this Supplementary Estimate, therefore, is the belief that when you ask people who are fighting for their lives if they are prepared to lay down their lives, if necessary, they will do so rather than let their employment and future prospects in their native locality go to nought. In that connection, it was somewhat disappointing that only a couple of weeks ago a claim was received from the local branch of the union for additional payments for hard cleaning and night shift workers, etc. It appeared to the board generally that these claims could have been brought forward at the time the wage structure in the reopened mines was being considered. It is rather a blow that fresh claims should be brought forward after such an insignificant period of time.
I said, in introducing the Estimate, that we hoped that this would be a success. We most sincerely do but the justification for it is not, as Deputy T. F. O'Higgins said, that the Government are offering a piecemeal solution to a wider problem. This is an argument based on an entirely false ground. I want to deny to the House that this is the approach of the Government now or at any time previously. The approach is that in certain circumstances, we are led to believe—and we like to hold on to that belief—this can be made an economic proposition and we are voting some of the people's money in the pursuance of that prospect. Incidentally, with regard to alternative employment in mining, the House will recall that there was an offer for the immediate employment of approximately 120 men in Ballingarry coalmines.
There is plenty of work in England.
There was, in fact, an offer for the immediate employment of 120 people in the occupation these people had been accustomed to all their lives. That is the basis on which Deputy T. F. O'Higgins argued the case only a few minutes ago. That alternative employment was taken up by, I think, eight or ten men to date. True, there is plenty of alternative employment in England, but, there again may I remind the Deputy of what British experience has been in regard to coal mining? It is becoming an increasingly unfashionable occupation. Many of the expert miners in the Castlecomer area, when given the choice of immediate employment here, chose to go over to England. When I discussed the matter with them, they admitted they would go there not to work in their own field but rather in alternative employment.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary take any steps to ascertain why those workers did not go to Ballingarry?
Some of them have, in fact, gone there.
Did the Parliamentary Secretary ask them why they did not go?
Of course I asked them and, of course, I am perfectly well aware of the situation. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance mentioned the necessity for continued good communication between men and unions and between unions and management. In that connection, the House may know that one of the local union leaders has been appointed to the board in an effort to achieve this very necessary level of communication between all the people involved.
Mention was made earlier by Deputy Donegan of assessment of the fuel resources of our country. The position here is that this is really a matter for the Minister for Transport and Power.
I now come to the matter of the Avoca Mines and, as Deputy M. J. O'Higgins so rightly and fairly said, the details of the negotiations going on at the present time must be regarded as confidential. Obviously, the fact that the world price of copper has improved makes the prospect of a reasonable deal being made considerably brighter than it was, say, 18 months ago. All we can say to the people living in that locality is that we have real hope that within the fairly near future, a suitable arrangement will be made either on the basis of the offers which are already on hand with the Receiver or other offers which Deputy Sweetman seems to suggest may yet be made.
There is nothing further I wish to say except on a personal note. On the occasion of my visit to the Castlecomer area, I was very struck by the obvious pride the people had in their houses and their locality. Indeed, I was most impressed by the way in which some very large families of children were looked after and dressed. It is my sincere hope that the next time I go to Castlecomer, it will be to a continuing thriving community. The answer to that, possibly, now lies partly under the ground but partly with the activities of those who will be working there, and I wish them every success.
Would the Parliamentary Secretary not tell us why the Laois mines were not included in this?
I should like to ask the Parliamentary Secretary to look into the matter I raised about the dumping of oil in this particular firm. It was attempted before and apparently the Minister, in 1962, put his foot down.
It is not really a matter for me but I will bring the Deputy's remarks to the attention of the Minister for Transport and Power.
I have it on the best of authority with regard to the Avoca mines that there are many companies interested.
