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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 1 Mar 1966

Vol. 221 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Health.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £17,337,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Health (including Oifig an Ard-Chlaraitheora), and certain services administered by that Office, including Grants to Local Authorities, miscellaneous Grants and a Grant-in-Aid.

I should first like to thank the House for facilitating me in arranging to take together the Supplementary Estimate for Health for this year, the main Estimates for Health and for the Central Mental Hospital for the coming year and the motion on the White Paper on the Health Services and Their Further Development.

When speaking in the House in November on the motion put down by Labour Deputies in relation to the services, I indicated that an opportunity would be given for a discussion in the House on the White Paper proposals and I have thought that, to avoid duplicate debates on health policy this year, this discussion should be combined with the normal one on the Estimates. I am appreciative of the House's acceptance of this suggestion.

In previous years, the Minister for Health has commenced his introductory statement on his Department's Estimates by giving statistics in relation to births, deaths and marriages and the incidence of various diseases, and then has commented in some detail on developments in the various health services during the year which he was reviewing. I do not today intend to follow that precedent as I think that, with the White Paper before the House, Deputies will be more interested in the future than in the past, so it is mainly to the future of the health services that I will direct my remarks.

Statistical material such as was formerly given in the Minister's opening statement and information on hospitals construction projects have, however, been circulated in a statement to Deputies. I hope they will find this useful. One cannot sensibly discuss the future of the health services, of course, without referring to their past and, as I comment on the White Paper, my remarks will include some references to developments in the services during the past year.

The White Paper on the health services and their further development was laid before the House on 19th January last. As indicated in the introduction to it, the Government wish that the various proposals in the different parts of the White Paper should be the subject of wide public discussion before any final decisions are taken on their detailed development. Therefore, in opening my remarks, I think I should stress that the Government are not committed to all the details of what is in the White Paper. It represents what, in general, the Government consider to be the proper lines for the future planning of the health services, but we are quite prepared to consider modifications if, when we have heard the views of interested parties and have held consultations, these seem necessary. I expect that the process of consultation on the various proposals in the White Paper will be complicated and fairly lengthy and it will be a fitting prelude to these discussions to have this debate in the House. I am confident that at the end of the debate, the House will give its general approval to the proposals in the White Paper and that the debate will be of great benefit to the Government in the further development of their policy.

When speaking on 1st June last on the Estimate for Health for the current financial year, I told the House that I was undertaking a general review of the health services. In this review, I went back over the history of the development of the services and surveyed their general pattern, relying for this, to a great extent, on the documents which had been prepared for the Select Committee on the Health Services. I was struck by the complexity of the present services and felt, therefore, that before any major revisions of them were introduced, it would be desirable that their development up to the present should be explained in a White Paper which would also set out the factors governing further developments and then, in this context, the Government's proposals for the future. I would ask Deputies to note particularly the title of the White Paper—The Health Services and Their Further Development. This choice of title was very deliberate and, if you like, challenging. For what we think is needed is a progressive improvement of our system of health services, which we regard as basically sound—not a root and branch replacement of these services by a health service based on a different principle. I have on many occasions made it clear that I accept fully the main principles on which the present services are based, which are defined as follows in paragraph 15 of the White Paper:

In developing the services on the lines summarised above the Government did not accept the proposition that the State had a duty to provide unconditionally all medical, dental and other health services free of charge for everyone, without regard to individual need or circumstances. On the other hand, no service is designed so that a person must show dire want before he can avail himself of it.

Without departing from this main principle, the White Paper proposes many changes. Each of the present services is reviewed. Where a service is considered satisfactory by the Government, this is stated; where it is not, the changes which the Government think should be made are explained and justified. When, after consultations with the public representatives, professional organisations and others concerned, final decisions are taken as to the form of these changes, the Government will take steps to see that they are brought into effect.

The White Paper proposes a number of important changes in the general medical service. It is intended to introduce a choice of doctor in the service and, we hope, a choice of chemist; it is intended that the limits for the categories eligible for the service will be clearly defined, instead of being subject to individual local interpretations of a rather vague legal formula, as at present. It is proposed that there should be better arrangements for helping the middle income group in obtaining drugs and medicines prescribed by general practitioners, where hardship would be involved in buying them privately, and it is intended to proceed with the further development of the district nursing service and to provide a home help service, particularly for the aged and chronic sick. These radical changes in this service will pose a number of problems. The most outstanding of these is, of course, the fact that at present we have permanent salaried district medical officers in about 550 dispensary districts throughout the country. One of the big problems in bringing in this scheme for choice of doctor will arise from the arrangements which will have to be made to fit these into it. In some areas, particularly in the West, the dispensary doctors will have to be retained on a salaried basis because, in practice, there will be no choice of doctor. However, in most of the country we must look forward to the eventual abolition of the post of dispensary doctor, and existing holders must be fitted into the new scheme with due regard to their present position and pension rights. I cannot say now what the exact answer to this problem will be, and indeed there may be a number of answers varying from area to area. I have, however, promised the Irish Medical Association, when they sought clarification of my intentions in this regard, that I will attempt to ensure that permanent and pensionable district medical officers who continue to provide, in their present areas, services on the scale on which they provide them at present will not suffer any decrease in remuneration from public funds as a result of the change in the service, and I expect that, in the event, the present dispensary doctors will be satisfactorily fitted into the new service.

This question is only one of many which, in the coming months, my Department and myself will be discussing with the Irish Medical Association and the Medical Union. I cannot, therefore, give the House today a detailed picture of how the service with choice of doctor will operate. I can go no further than what is stated in paragraph 44 of the White Paper, which shows that the Government will aim to provide, for the category eligible, a service not outwardly distinguishable from that which doctors provide for their private patients.

Obviously, if this is the aim where the doctor is concerned, we should also try to make similar arrangements with the chemists. Discussions with their representatives are, in fact, proceeding now and I hope that we will be able to negotiate a satisfactory and economical scheme under which, as far as possible, persons can bring their prescriptions to any convenient participating chemist.

It is generally accepted that there are many people in what we call the middle income group who can afford to pay fees to their family doctor but cannot afford to pay, without hardship, for the drugs and medicines which he may prescribe. The present law allows health authorities to help in circumstances like these and my Department has, on a number of occasions, reminded the health authorities of this power. However, I think that, particularly with the other changes which I have just mentioned, we should have a more formal scheme under which persons in the middle income group will have the right to assistance from the health administration in specified circumstances, where hardship would be involved in meeting their entire needs privately. I do not think that the present arrangements under which a person is dependent on a subjective local assessment of hardship is entirely satisfactory. It is intended, therefore, to specify a fixed sum and where a person in the middle income group has found it necessary to spend that amount in a fixed period, in buying drugs and medicines, he will be entitled to get assistance in further purchases. Legislation will be necessary to introduce this change. As stated in the White Paper it is not intended that the legislation should set out the details of the scheme but that these should be fixed in regulations made later.

Finally, in relation to the general medical service, the Government propose that legislation should be introduced to permit the Minister for Health to fix limits for eligibility. Paragraphs 51 to 53 of the White Paper dealt with this. There has been much dissatisfaction with the application of the present legal formula under which eligibility for the service is determined locally and in accordance with varying standards, the application of which is illustrated in the table shown on page 28 of the White Paper. I think that the specification of limits, which will be made public and, indeed, widely publicised, will represent a big step forward.

The intention is that the limits will be specified by regulations which would be subject to the approval of each House of the Oireachtas. The Dáil will therefore have an opportunity in the future to discuss the actual limits, so I do not intend to say anything today on what these might be.

Side by side with these changes in the constitution of the general medical service, the development of the district nursing services will be speeded up, so that the doctors working in the new service will eventually have available, in all districts, nurses to help them. The need for a home help service, especially for old people and for the chronic sick, is also recognised and it is intended to provide for this in the legislation.

All these changes will be expensive. They will involve much planning and preparation before they can be made but I am satisfied that this will be well worth while and that the money put into the improvement and development of the general medical service will be well spent.

When we turn to the hospital services, it will be seen that the White Paper does not propose any comparable changes. With the extension of the eligibility limits, to be effective from 1st April next, under the Health and Mental Treatment (Amendment) Act, 1966, these hospital and specialist services will be available to over 90 per cent of the population. Hospital care is, of course, a burden which can be met privately only by a small minority and the cost to public funds of these services is at present very considerable—about £24 million for this year. While the White Paper does not propose any radical change in the hospital service itself, it does underline the fact that, when we have expenditure of this size on hospitals, it is important that we should see that the money is well spent, that the hospitals which we have are used to the best advantage and that there is proper co-ordination between the various hospital services. I will be saying more on that when discussing the administrative proposals in the White Paper.

I expect, having regard to earlier debates in the House on health policy, that I will be criticised for not proposing the abolition of the charges for intern hospital care at present levied on some in the middle income group, This, I should say, was carefully considered by the Government but I do not think it would be reasonable to abolish these charges. The revenue from them is quite considerable— almost £½ million a year—and I think that paying the charges imposed should cause little hardship, when we bear in mind that the maximum charge is ten shillings a day, that the maximum is levied only in a minority of cases and that the average stay in hospital is only a few weeks. Indeed, now that the income and valuation limits for eligibility for the hospital services are being increased, I think it reasonable that there will be some increase in the income from these charges and that endeavours should be made to this end.

Deputies will note, on the other hand, that it is proposed to abolish the charges for out-patient specialist services, which are at the rate of 7/6d for X-rays and 2/6d for other specialist services. This may seem inconsistent, but the object of this abolition is to encourage the use of out-patient services instead of intern hospital services where this is appropriate. In any event, the administrative costs involved in collecting these small sums are disproportionately high.

The White Paper stresses the need for proper planning and co-ordination of our hospitals. While much has been accomplished in the field of hospital building to meet the country's essential needs, the extent of the requirements still remaining to be met is quite vast. For very good reasons the main concentration in the past was on the provision of accommodation to cater for patients suffering from infectious diseases, the establishment of modern hospital buildings for the acutely ill, mainly outside Dublin and Cork, the making available of a considerable amount of accommodation for mentally handicapped persons, the establishment of certain special hospitals such as St. Luke's Hospital and Our Lady's Hospital for Sick Children, Dublin, and the National Medical Rehabilitation Centre at Dún Laoghaire and the provision of much needed accommodation for maternity patients throughout the country generally. There are a number of major sectors, however, towards which we must now direct our energies.

The teaching hospitals are of special importance and the White Paper has announced the Government's intention to make further progress towards the provision of suitable buildings to meet their needs. Galway has already been provided for. The new St. Vincent's Hospital at Elm Park, Dublin, which is expected to be completed by the end of 1967 or early 1968, the new Coombe Maternity Hospital, which will be ready this year and a major extension which is in progress at Holles Street Hospital will further improve the standards of treatment and teaching facilities available in Dublin. I am taking steps to establish in the very near future a special body representative of the Cork Health Authority, University College, Cork, the Department of Education and my own Department to plan and erect a major general hospital and a new dental hospital in Cork, and, towards that end, to organise the holding of an international architectural competition to select a suitable design. Preliminary planning work is already under way in connection with the proposed replacement of the present St. Laurence's Hospital on a site at Cabra. In addition, the Central Council of the Federated Dublin Voluntary Hospitals are formulating basic policy in relation to the erection of one large hospital to replace a number of their smaller units.

The Cork General Hospital and St. Laurence's Hospital schemes have been on the mat for a long time and quite a lot of planning work was carried out up to about ten years ago. Progress in medicine does not stand still, however, and, in view of the very large financial involvement and the great importance of these projects, it is essential that our planning concepts be completely reassessed to ensure a better anticipation of future needs in the light of developments in the practice and teaching of medicine and in the structure of the population.

In regard to the mentally handicapped, the recent report of the Commission on Mental Handicap indicates the extent of the accommodation which the Commission considered should be provided. It would be unwise to attempt to estimate the cost without a more precise definition of the manner in which the new accommodation should be provided, whether it should be at existing centres or in entirely new ones, and whether some existing institutions now used for other purposes could be given over to the mentally handicapped. If the accommodation were to be provided at entirely new centres the total cost would be not less than £5 million. I hope to issue soon a White Paper in which proposals arising from the Commission's Report will be set out.

Our major institutional needs relate to the provision of suitable accommodation for the mentally ill and the aged chronic sick. We are making progress in regard to the latter. Many Deputies will be aware of the work already done at Mullingar, Mountmellick and Stranorlar and of the work in progress at Castleblaney, Clonakilty, Ennis, Longford and Trim. Similar schemes are soon to commence at Athy and Castlebar. Planning work on improvement schemes at other homes is also well advanced. The extent of the problem generally may be judged from the estimates of the cost involved —about £3 million for work in progress or sanctioned, and about £8½ million for what still remains to be done.

We can anticipate that the Commission on Mental Illness, which is expected to report this year, will have a lot to say in regard to the physical environmental facilities available for the mentally ill. The existing hospitals are, in the main, almost one hundred years old. They were designed in an era when the concepts of care were utterly different from those consistent with current medical standards. I am sorry to say that the buildings in many instances have not been well maintained and that there is a pressing need for improvement of the standard of patient comfort. I do not wish at this stage to anticipate in any way the line the Commission may take in regard to new hospital facilities for the mentally ill but I have little doubt from my own knowledge of existing conditions that we will find ourselves facing a very heavy capital programme in this field of activity also.

From preliminary assessments which have been made in my Department, it seems clear that the capital cost of financing even the programme of works so far approved will be formidable. The coming years are bound to bring to light other needs, and all this points to the need to establish priorities and to concentrate available resources on the achievement of the more urgent objectives. This is a task to which I have been giving attention.

In my general review of the services when preparing the White Paper, I took a special interest in how they apply in the case of old people. The aged must have proper health services and this I will regard as a high priority in developing the White Paper proposals. Of course, this object will be partially attained in the general development of the various other services. For example, the general medical services will, when the new limits are prescribed, be available free to a majority of old people. Over one-half of those over 70 years of age will automatically be entitled to this service as recipients of old age pensions. Again, hospital and specialist services will be available free, or at modest charges, for practically all old people. as it is to be assumed that very few who are over the age for retirement would have an income exceeding £1,200 a year. In the case of these services, one problem is in seeing that the old people know of their entitlement and that they can readily use the services. This involves a co-ordination of activities by a number of bodies and Government Departments and the Minister for Health is to be given responsibility for seeing that this co-ordination is effective.

I have already arranged for the appointment of an interdepartmental committee with representatives of my Department and the Departments of Social Welfare and Local Government and I intend that a wider body should be established on a national basis with representatives of the various voluntary bodies operating in this field. There is a tremendous amount of goodwill throughout the country towards the aged and there is a great amount of good work being done by various voluntary bodies. I can assure the House that I will take very seriously my responsibility for seeing that the public services and the voluntary services are co-ordinated so that they will offer to the aged all the help and solace they can.

The White Paper does not dwell very long on the other health services and neither will I. Our services for the health care of mothers and children are, on the whole, satisfactory and no major changes are suggested in them. In fact, the only major change proposed is that the rate of the maternity cash grant will be increased from £4 to £8 and that there will be a double grant where twins are born and so on.

Our dental, ophthalmic and aural services are not satisfactory and, for practical reasons, it has not been possible to extend these to the middle income groups as was provided for in section 21 of the Health Act, 1953. We cannot expect to be able to make such an entension immediately, but it is part of the policy under the White Paper that, as soon as the facilities are available, this extension will be effected. Therefore, I hope that, in the not too distant future, comprehensive dental, ophthalmic and aural services for the middle income group will be available.

Finally, on the services, I would like to say a few words on the future of the preventive services. Since the begining of the present century, but particularly in recent years, very effective public services were organised for preventing the outbreak and spread of infectious diseases. We are very fortunate in the standard of these services. Take poliomyelitis, for example. There were only five cases of this disease in 1965, by far the lowest number since we started to keep complete statistics in 1942. As recently as 1960, however, there were 183 cases and 1955, our worst year, featured a total of 499 cases. It is certainly to be hoped that the trend of the last few years, showing a consistent fall, will continue. We share the good fortune of other countries in this relief and it is to be hoped that the present picture signifies a lasting diminution. This, indeed, is the opinion of many international experts on the subject who consider that the widespread fall in the incidence of poliomyelitis over the past few years is directly attributable to the introduction of vaccination procedures. However, a high level of immunity must be maintained if we are to avoid the danger of a resurgence of the disease and parents should know that it is unwise to neglect the protection offered for their young children, who are the group most susceptible.

There is welcome evidence that the public do appreciate this need. The nation-wide campaign of oral polio vaccination with the simple and highly effective "sugar lump" vaccine last year was very successful. The latest statistics from local health authorities show that of the one million, approximately, in the eligible age-group from six months to 18 years, about 80 per cent got the protection of the vaccination. I would like to take this opportunity of expressing my thanks to all who contributed to the success of this campaign and in particular to the chief medical officers and the public health staffs of the local health authorities.

It is still necessary to ask for the co-operation of those who have not so far availed themselves of this costfree and trouble-free service, and to underline the necessity for preserving the present substantial degree of community protection by ensuring that, as a matter of routine, every infant will be given this oral vaccination as soon as convenient after six months of age. Health authorities are continuing to make arrangements for this purpose.

What I have said about polio applies equally to other infectious diseases, notably diphtheria.

Some of the techniques developed for diagnosing and preventing infectious diseases can be used in the future in relation to some non-infectious diseases. There are complex issues in this approach to such diseases, involving medical research and health education on such things as the prevention of heart disease and cancer. I intend that the preventive services will in the future become geared for this. I also intend that the possibilities of "screening" of large sections of the population for hidden symptoms of disease should be explored and that services for such screening should be brought in where practicable for particular diseases. We recently introduced such a service for a condition known as phenylketonuria, which can cause mental handicap, and we are developing a similar service for cancer of the cervix of the uterus.

When, in my review, I had considered the services and the improvements which seem necessary, obviously I had next to tot up the bill and see what the cost of the specific improvements which I had in mind would be. This turned out to be quite substantial. A total of £4,265,000 is mentioned in paragraph 115 of the White Paper as the annual extra cost of some improvements already made this year and of other improvements proposed in the White Paper. As this increase would be additional to normal rises in the cost of the services, it seemed clear that it could not be financed in the traditional way, that is, on a 50-50 basis between the health services grant and the rates. The Government decided, therefore, that the cost of the further extensions mentioned in the White Paper should not be met in any proportion by the local rates. Other possible sources of revenue are being considered but it seems likely that general taxation must bear the major part of the increase.

As well as reaching this conclusion relating to the financing of extensions and improvements, the Government decided that, pending further consideration of the methods by which extensions of the health services will be financed in future years, they would make arrangements which will ensure that the total cost of the services falling on local rates in respect of the year 1966-67 will not exceed the cost in respect of the year 1965-66. In reply to a recent Parliamentary Question, I assured the House that no deterioration in the present health services would be permitted as a consequence of this decision to relieve the rates. On the contrary, it is my intention that the ordinary progressive improvement of these services should continue. Deputies will, however, appreciate that I am in no position to give carte blanche to local authorities in spending money on health services, so I have asked health authorities to obtain my prior approval for any departure from the estimates already prepared by them for the year 1966-67, except where there are increases arising from variations in general costs or in the levels of demand for existing services. Provision to meet the additional Exchequer liability arising from this Government decision is contained in Subhead G of the Estimate for 1966-67.

I cannot say, at present, what arrangements will be made on this aspect of financing the health services for future years. The White Paper refers to an examination of other possible sources of revenue. This will be a comprehensive serious examination of all possible sources but I should say that I am not too sanguine myself on the possibilities of finding another major source of finance for the health services. The most obvious possible alternative—and one which has often been advocated in this House—is insurance contributions. I have already expressed here my misgivings on this as a source of finance, but I am prepared to consider this afresh, to see if it would be possible to have some system of such contributions which would not have the disadvantages which have been mentioned here on previous occasions—that they are, in fact, a regressive form of taxation and would be difficult to collect from self-employed persons, including farmers.

We have, of course already got another source of finance for our health services, that is, the Hospitals Trust Fund. The income into that Fund now provides over £3 million a year towards capital and revenue expenditure on hospitals. I do not think it likely that we are going to find another such fruitful source of revenue. After all the Revenue Commissioners have for many years been casting their net widely and it is quite unlikely that a source of revenue is available to us now which has evaded their diligence and ingenuity. However, I shall report on another occasion to the House on the results of my further examination of this subject.

The White Paper proposes that the administration of the services will be transferred from the present local health authorities to specially-established regional boards, with members nominated by the Minister for Health —these will include representatives of the medical and related professions and, where appropriate, the voluntary hospitals—in addition to members elected by the local authorities. This development is a logical sequel to the other proposals in the White Paper. From the financial viewpoint, it would be unwise to continue full local administration of the services, as at present, if the local authorities had not to worry about the increased cost arising from extensions and improvements of the services. Apart from this, it has become clear that the county is too small a unit for the organisation of many of the health services.

The White Paper deliberately avoids going into detail on the constitution of these regional boards and the areas which they will serve. I think this will be understood, as there is no point in going into these details until a decision is taken in principle on the establishment of these boards. The House will have an opportunity later, if this proposal is accepted, to discuss the details of the new regional administration. There are many matters to be considered before then—the exact delineation of the regions, the combination, within the membership of the boards, of the members of the local authorities, the professional interests and others, the training and qualifications of the chief executive officers of the boards, and the relationship between the boards and the central authority.

This development is, I think, the logical outcome, not only of the other proposals in the White Paper, but of the long-term trend in the administration of the health services. Originating in comparatively small organisations— the boards of guardians, the rural districts councils and the urban district councils—the health services have over the years, as needs required, become a function of bodies covering larger areas, that is, the county councils and the joint health authorities. It is clear that many of these are not large enough now and that it is necessary to accept the regional concept for the best administration of the services in the future.

Public comment on the proposals in the White Paper has in general been very favourable, but there has been some disappointment at the time-table which I have announced for bringing in the change proposed. I have explained that it is my aim that the legislation necessary for these changes will be introduced in the late autumn and that I would hope that most of this legislation could be brought into effect before the end of next year. Now this may seem a rather slow process, but any member of the House who has had the responsibility of office will know that radical changes such as are proposed in the White Paper cannot be brought in overnight, or in a matter of a few weeks, or a few months. The proposals for the 1953 Health Act were first published in a White Paper issued in July, 1952, and the major changes under that Act did not come into effect until 1956. The British National Health Service was first advocated in a White Paper published early in 1944; the National Health Service Act was passed in 1946 and the service did not, in fact, commence until 1948.

To return home again, the proposals on which the Voluntary Health Insurance Act of 1957 was based were published in a report issued in May, 1956, but the Act did not become effective until October, 1957. This is rather a better schedule than I propose, but then this Act was on a much more restricted plane than the White Paper. Finally, to quote what may be the most respectable precedent in so far as the Labour Party, in any event, are concerned, a White Paper was published in October, 1949, proposing changes in the social welfare services, but legal effect was not given to these until the Social Welfare Act was passed in 1952 and became law in January, 1953. These precedents show that the time-table which I have mentioned is a realistic one and does not allow for any dallying in bringing the White Paper proposals into effect.

I think we must recognise, in any event, that, at the present time, it would be unwise to impose the taxation needed to pay for the changes proposed. Indeed, it would have been easy for the Government to justify a decision to publish their plans for the health services only when times got better. However, the more responsible thing to do was what we have done, that is, to publish the White Paper, so that we can plan now for changes to be brought in when the money is available. I can assure the House that it is my personal intention to see that the detailed planning of these proposals and the preparation of the necessary legislation will be pushed on as rapidly as possible by my Department and I am confident that, in this work, the full co-operation of all involved—the local authorities and the many professional bodies concerned—can be expected in the months ahead.

The Government are satisfied that the plans in the White Paper are reasonable and that they can be financed out of our future economic development. Perhaps I should conclude my remarks on the White Paper by saying a few words on the relationship of these plans to our economic situation. The object of all economic development is, of course, to provide a better life for our people. It is not an end in itself and if we were to regard the accumulation of material wealth as our only aim, this would be entirely contrary to our past traditions. The primary aim of economic development, as I see it, is to give the people the means to meet their material needs so that they can live in dignity and independence. But independence cannot be complete. When sick, a person needs, and is dependent on, care given by others and this is often expensive and complicated to arrange. We must recognise that many people cannot arrange such care privately without financial help and that the State must, therefore, organise efficient health services for them—or see that they are organised. The Government will not, therefore, hesitate to propose that there should be allocated from the future increase in our national wealth a sufficient proportion to meet the needs of the health services. It is a challenge to us all to ensure that, when the State will thus wish to divert some of the fruits of our economic development from private consumption to public welfare, the people will accept that this is necessary. I am confident that they will and am confident, too, that when effect is given to the proposals in this White Paper, we will have in this country a logical pattern of health services which will meet our needs in accordance with our past traditions.

To turn now to the Estimates before the House, Deputies will see that there is a Supplementary Estimate seeking an additional sum of £900,000 to meet the liabilities on the Vote for Health in the current financial year. There is provision for increases of £980,000 in the health services grant to local authorities and of £20,000 under the subhead for the salaries, wages and allowances of the staff of my Department. These are offset by a saving of £100,000 in the Grant-in-Aid to the Hospitals Trust Fund. In regard to that saving, I might say that it does not reflect any cutback on capital spending. The programme of capital works within the year has proceeded according to plan.

The increase in the requirements under the heading of Grants to Health Authorities is, of course, a direct consequence of increases in the expenditure of these authorities, as now ascertained, over that on which the original Estimates were based. The estimated additional requirement of £980,000 is made up of £100,000 in respect of balances of grants for years prior to 1965-66 and £880,000 in respect of grants for the year 1965-66. Approximately £650,000 out of the total of £980,000 is attributable to increases in the remuneration of health authority staffs. The increases in the rates of allowances to disabled persons and to persons suffering from infectious diseases which became effective from 1st August, 1965, account for a further £151,000 of the additional sum and the balance of the Supplementary Estimate is attributable to increases in the costs of the health services under a variety of headings, including the estimated extra cost of hospital and specialist services for the additional group which became eligible for these services by reason of the raising of the income limit under the Social Welfare Acts from £800 to £1,200 a year, which became effective from 6th September last.

To turn now to the Estimate for the year 1966-67, Deputies will, of course, appreciate that it has not been possible to show in the 1965-66 column the effect of the Supplementary Estimate for that year which is now before the House and will no doubt bear this in mind when making comparisons between the figures for the two years.

There is only one new item in the Estimate—the provision in Subhead G for Supplementary Grants to Health Authorities to relieve the burden of health charges on the rates. I have already referred to this in my remarks on the White Paper proposals, and I do not think that it calls for further comment.

In regard to Subhead G generally, I might add that, in addition to making provision for the operation for the full year 1966-67 of the factors which I have mentioned which came into operation in the course of the year 1965-66—that is to say, the extension of hospital and specialist services to persons who become insurable under the Social Welfare Acts as a result of extended insurable limits, and the increased allowances under the Health Acts to disabled persons and persons suffering from infectious diseases— there is provision for the extension of eligibility for hospital and specialist services which will result from the operation from 1st April next of the Health and Mental Treatment Act, 1966. Under this Act, the valuation limit for farmers will be raised from £50 to £60 and the income limit for other self-employed persons from £800 to £1,200 a year.

The reasons for such variations as exist in the case of the remaining subheads between the provision proposed for 1966-67 and the figures for 1965-66, adjusted by the current Supplementary Estimate, will be apparent from the face of the Estimate and do not call for explanation. In conclusion, I should like again to thank Deputies for facilitating me in taking the Estimates and the White Paper motion together.

(Cavan): As the Minister has told the House, he is seeking approval on this occasion for a Supplementary Estimate for 1965-66, for the Estimate for the year ending 31st March, 1967 and for the proposals contained in his White Paper. This, as the Minister has told the House, is somewhat unusual but the House has agreed to it and, for reasons which I shall mention later, I think the Minister is extremely fortunate in his first year of office to be in a position to join these three proposals together.

There is nothing new in the Estimate for the year 1966-67. It discloses a continuation of the inadequate and, indeed, somewhat degrading type of health services which has been in operation in this country for some time and is being operated at the moment. It contains a lot of the stamp of the old poor law system of health services: there is no choice of doctor for the people catered for by the State-operated health services; there is the means test operated at its worst and most stringent manner; people are compelled to present themselves at dispensaries to get medical treatment, thereby branding themselves as a section of the community apart.

This system of catering for the people of the country who need attention is being continued for a further 12 months at least. This type of health service has been denounced as unacceptable and beneath human dignity by the Fine Gael Party on several occasions during an interval of years. It has been denounced by the people of the country as unacceptable and degrading. That is the type of health services, at any rate, we are to be provided with by the Minister during the next 12 months. I suppose it would be impossible for him to change overnight. I am glad the Government and the Minister have at last come to recognise the inadequacies of the present system and the indignities it imposes on the people who have to avail of it. Therefore, the Minister is fortunate to have something else, however inadequate it may be, to talk about other than the Estimates as they are.

Before coming to the White Paper, I should like to mention one subject which is more proper to the Estimates and which requires attention earlier than it would possibly get under the proposals in the White Paper. It is essential that the personnel operating the health services should be properly remunerated and, even more important, should have proper conditions of work. I come immediately to the provision of living accommodation in nurses' homes, about which I had occasion to speak to the Minister in one instance previously. The Minister has an obligation towards the nursing profession. It cannot be denied that some of the homes in which nurses are expected to live are quite unsuitable and the living conditions in them deplorable. These girls have dedicated their lives to the nursing profession. In some nurses' homes provided by local authorities, they are expected to share rooms. That is a deplorable state of affairs. In some cases even nurses on night duty and nurses on day duty share the same rooms. This means that during the spare time of the nurse on day duty she has not access to her private quarters, lest she disturb the nightnurse who is resting. I would ask the Minister to take this matter up at once with the authorities concerned and see that it is remedied. I do not wish to dwell further on it except to say the Minister should concern himself with it immediately.

In the course of his speech, the Minister dealt to a large extent with the White Paper. From time to time in this House over the past 12 to 18 months, we have had long, sometimes learned and sometimes not so learned discussions on various topics involving the expenditure of considerable sums of money. Take the Land Bill of 1965; the discussions we had last week and the week before on the revision of the educational system necessitating the building of new, larger schools; and the announcements made in interim reports to planning authorities in the south of the provision of new cities and new estates. Now we have this White Paper on Health, which is not for immediate implementation, to say the least of it.

I want to suggest to the House and to the country that this type of discussion here, introducing new policies of this sort and committing the country to vast sums of money at this time, is nothing more than a smokescreen to divert the attention of the people from the fact that nothing is being done about health, about education and about the land settlement question because, in effect, there is no money to do it. It may be good politics to talk loudest about the provision of adequate health services at a time when the Taoiseach has stated there is no money for health or for education. Therefore, I think we should approach this White Paper in a realistic way, in the light of existing circumstances and in the knowledge that nothing will be done about health for a considerable time.

I have read the White Paper carefully on a number of occasions. I found it in many places vague and ambiguous. I found a lot of careful Civil Service phraseology. I came here this evening in the hope I would hear from the Minister a speech which would clarify the White Paper, which might fill in some of the gaps and supply some of the missing information. I do not think I am being offensive to the Minister or that I am misrepresenting his speech if I say that, having heard him, we are not anything wiser than we were when we read the White Paper. By and large, the Minister read the White Paper again. I say that, largely, that is a fair interpretation of the Minister's speech.

It may be that the Government have not given a great deal of thought to the proposals in the White Paper and that the Minister is hindered in expressing his views here clearly by his advisers in the Civil Service and by the Department of Finance. All this leads me to believe that there is really nothing very definite about the proposals and that there is no hope of implementing them in the near future. The Minister keeps saying that he hopes to have legislation introduced this year and passed early next year in order that he may be able to put his proposals into operation by the end of 1967. Although he says that, the vague manner in which he deals with the various proposals and the statement on page 9 of the White Paper, which says nothing about 1967, leads me to the belief that it will be very much longer before these proposals become a reality. In so far as there are worthwhile proposals in the White Paper, I hope that that will not be the case.

Let us get down now to the White Paper. It is my function to tell the House and the country what the attitude of the Fine Gael Party is to this White Paper and what the Party's reaction is to the terms and proposals contained in the White Paper. I propose to do so as briefly as I can. The Fine Gael Party accept this White Paper for what it is, a small, inadequate and very belated instalment of Fine Gael policy in relation to health. It contains provisions for a choice of doctor for a limited category. That is a move in the right direction. We have advocated that for many years and we are glad that the Minister has at last turned his back on his predecessors in office and accepted that. Nevertheless, it is an inadequate and belated instalment of our policy on health. We do not agree that it provides a health service in keeping with the dignity and desires of the Ireland of 1966, nearly 50 years after obtaining our freedom, an Ireland that is knocking at the door of Europe.

It is proposed in the White Paper to provide drugs free of charge for the lower income groups and to supply those drugs through chemists' shops instead of through dispensaries. Again that is a move in the right direction. But these drugs are to be supplied by the chemist from stocks supplied by the health authority from a national formulary compiled by the Civil Service, admittedly after consultation with others, but nevertheless compiled by civil servants for the use of doctors operating the scheme. I cannot accept that. I cannot accept that people in the Custom House, who are not practising medical practitioners, are the correct people to tell the general practitioner down the country what drugs he will prescribe for his patients.

The benefit of this free general medical service and free drugs is to be confined to a limited number of people. The means test is to be retained. It is stated that the Government do not think the scheme should be extended to include a high proportion of the population, to use the words of paragraph 53 of the White Paper. The Minister has not elaborated on that. He has not dealt with the percentage which should be included in what will continue to be called "the lower income group". It is reasonable, I think, to say therefore that it will be in or about the old 30 per cent. It is stated elsewhere in the White Paper that it is not suggested that the test should be one of dire need. The test at the moment is one of dire need. No one at the moment qualifies for a health card, as it is commonly called, unless he is in dire need. No one qualifies at the present time for a disability allowance unless he is destitute. This proposal means that the means test will be retained and operated rigidly as it is operated at present. That is deplorable. There will never be a satisfactory general medical service or, indeed, hospital service, until the means test is abolished and abolished once and for all. It is humiliating; it is degrading; and it is unworkable.

There is no Member of this House who has not had the experience of having these people who are in search of a medical card imploring him to get this one, that one or the other to get him a health card. As long as the means test is there, that sort of thing will go on. The Minister admits that it is impossible to say at the present time who is entitled to a health card. It will still be impossible, notwith standing the Minister's proposed regulations, as far as a great number of people are concerned, people who are not on a fixed income. There will always be the appeal to the country manager; there will always be the approach to the county councillor, the TD, the Senator or other public representative. That is something to which the working people of this country should not be subjected. In that regard Ireland is out on a limb. We share the stigma with Finland of being the only two countries in western Europe who operate a system of this kind, a system where people have to go with their hats in their hands to get what they should be entitled to. Therefore, I say that this free choice of doctor, glad as we are to see it coming in, is destroyed by this rigid application of the means test which will be continued.

It might be opportune at this time to deal with the position of the dispensary doctor who will be displaced, perhaps, as a result of this new scheme. At page 32, paragraph 46, there is this sentence, dealing, presumably, with the compensation to be paid to the displaced or replaced doctors: "The general position under the new service of those now holding permanent offices of district medical officer will be discussed specially with the medical organisations at an early date." That is a glorious bit of Civil Service jargon. Is the position of dispensary doctors not quite clear? Dispensary doctors have binding contracts with the various local authorities and they cannot be displaced by the Minister or anybody else unless they are compensated. I do not know what the Minister has told these organisations or what he has told these doctors, but it is time to tell the medical profession that they will not suffer any loss of income as a result of the implementation of the free choice of doctor provisions of this White Paper. That should be made perfectly clear to them, much clearer than it is made in paragraph 46 of the White Paper. Probably the Minister means that, but why does he not say it, and what is the mystery about?

Now we come to the middle-income group. It is proposed to provide drugs, in certain circumstances, for the middle-income group. The expression is: "where undue expense arises." This is another form of means test, another form of inquisition or investigation into the private affairs of people, which does not lead to the health services being properly availed of. Again it is a move in the right direction; I am not saying it is not. The Fine Gael proposal is that the middle-income group should have drugs at half cost without any investigation. There are people in the middle-income group suffering severe hardships in purchasing drugs and who are entitled to get assistance from the local authority if they apply for it. In the case of hardship they can get a limited health card or get a contribution towards the purchase of drugs. However, I know, and I am sure the Minister knows, as practically every Deputy knows, that people refuse to avail of this relief because, in order to do so, they are compelled to subject themselves to a visit from the home assistance officer, who is very often a neighbour, and they are compelled to have their private affairs and private circumstances pried into. That is something which could be abolished by another approach to this.

Another part of the White Paper dealing with the middle-income group which is to be deplored is the statement, which has been repeated here by the Minister today, that it is proposed to continue the hospital charge of up to 10/- a day. The Minister speaks of 10/- as the charge that is applicable at present; it can, of course, be changed by regulation. There is no justification at all for the continuance of this charge of up to, to use the Minister's words, 10/- a day for the middle-income group. Again it is an imposition of the means test which entails visits from the home assistance officer to the house of sick people or to the relatives of sick people. It entails answering innumerable questions, giving a lot of information which people should not be asked to give. The result of it is that people are afraid to go into hospital because of the cost it may involve. When they come out of hospital they are again compelled to see the local county councillor, Senator or TD to get their hospital bills reduced. The retention of the 10/- a day for the middle-income group could only be justified, even under the existing system, on economic grounds. If our system were accepted, it could not even be considered.

Let us get to grips with this charge of 10/- a day for hospital maintenance. Is it worth while? Does the income from it justify the hardship and the indignities it imposes on people availing of hospital treatment? Obviously, it does not. The Minister has told us today and previously that 60 per cent of the middle-income group paid nothing in a recent given year for hospital maintenance and of the remaining 40 per cent, he tells us only 50 per cent were called upon to pay more than 5/- a day. Therefore, only 20 per cent are paying between 5/- and 10/- per day. You do not have to accept my word; that is what the Minister said.

I should like to ask the Minister and the House what those unfortunates have had to go through, first of all, in the case of the 60 per cent who were charged nothing in order to get their hospital bills wiped out. How many of those bills were wiped out as a result of representations from someone or other to the country manager? How many of those people received large or crippling or considerable bills after leaving hospital? The same applies to the 20 per cent who did not pay more than 5/- per day and to those who paid less than 10/-. I put it to the Minister and the House that it is the experience of everybody in the House who is in touch with his constituents that he is daily being asked to approach the health authority to get hospital bills reduced. The tragedy of it is that some of these people before going to hospital approach the local representative to be assured that he will be able to do something for them towards getting the bill reduced. That cannot be the best way of getting well; it cannot create a proper disposition on the part of the patient. God knows, people have enough to worry about when going into hospital, perhaps to undergo an operation, without having to worry about the hardships the financial strain will impose on them.

The Minister has told us that the 10/- a day charge on the middle-income group brings in a worthwhile sum, nearly £500,000. The exact figure which he gives in his White Paper is something less than that. I should like to ask him what does it cost to collect this sum. Mark you, it is collected not in Dublin city or in one county but this, as the Minister for Transport and Power would say, nugatory £500,000 is collected from every county of the Twenty-Six Counties. I should like the Minister to break down the cost of collecting: the cost of keeping necessary records in every county, the cost of sending out accounts time and again, the cost of retaining and paying the home assistance officers who are employed to go out and investigate these accounts. It would be interesting to know what their travelling expenses alone amount to. I suggest that if the cost of collecting this amount were deducted from the £500,000, the net gain is not worth talking about, certainly not worth what is imposed on the middle-income group.

The Fine Gael policy on health is that there should be no means test for the lower or middle-income groups, that is, for roughly 85 per cent of the people catered for here, and that there should be a free choice of doctor and free hospital treatment. I am taking the White Paper more or less in the order in which it is paragraphed. The Minister has paid some compliments to the Voluntary Health Insurance Scheme and says the Government propose to encourage the directors of the scheme to extend it. I could not agree more. I am glad the Minister—I am not being offensive—unlike his predecessors in his Party, has come to regard the Voluntary Health Scheme introduced by Deputy O'Higgins as a very worthwhile contribution to our health services, indeed as the only thing that got the health services off the ground, so to speak, and showed a bit of clear and original thinking in regard to health in this country.

The mentally ill and the mentally handicapped are being dealt with by a Commission of 1961 whose report will be out in a few months, the Minister hopes, and in the report of a Commission which was published in 1965 and is being considered. We may, therefore, exclude those two categories from the discussions here today.

The maternity grant has been increased from £4 to £8, and that is good. It has been at £4 since 1953. Of course £4 is worth a lot less in 1966 than it was in 1953 and I am glad the Minister recognises that and proposes to implement the new grant. Without appearing ungrateful, I should like to ask him: when? The extension of the dental, ophthalmic and aural services to the middle-income group is announced in the White Paper. This is something which is laughable because section 21 of the 1953 Health Act provided for this very service. It provided that aural, ophthalmic and dental services should be available to the middle-income group free of charge or at reduced charges. That was 13 years ago. Nothing has been done about it since.

If that is to be taken as an indication of what we may expect in the future, then I was probably correct in referring to many of the provisions in the White Paper as a smokescreen. Not alone are these services not available to the middle-income group in accordance with the provisions of the 1953 Act but they are not available to the lower-income group. They are not compulsory. The county councils have certain authority to provide dentures but there are counties in which you can have your teeth removed free, gratis and for nothing, and if you cannot afford to replace them, you can go without teeth for the rest of your life. That is the position for the lower-income group, not to mention the middle-income group. Many of the lower-income group throughout the country are toothless because they have had their teeth extracted and cannot afford to replace them, and neither the Minister, the local authorities nor anybody else will assist them.

The Minister spoke about the difficulties involved in implementing the extension about which I have spoken. I should like to know what the difficulties are. There are many dentists in the country and we are exporting dentists and have been exporting them for years. I am sure there are ample ophthalmic and aural specialists in the country. I should like to know what the difficulties are and when we may expect the Minister, without awaiting further legislation, will implement section 21 of the 1953 Act.

We come again now to disability allowances. These certainly will not be provided unless the need is dire, to use the words of the White Paper. At present, when assessing the means of an unfortunate incapacitated person, the means of everybody belonging to him are taken into account, the means of his brothers, or sisters, or anybody living in the house, or who should be living in the house. A person would require to be destitute to qualify and the Minister accepts that that is so because in future he is going to provide, according to the White Paper, that only the means of the spouse of the applicant for the disability allowance will be taken into account. That is a good thing but, again, when may we expect this legislation? A short Act, or a section of an Act of Parliament, would make the necessary alteration.

Most people have read this White Paper or have read extracts in the national press, or heard about it on radio or television, and have a general idea of what it is all about but there are two questions which the country wants answered and which the White Paper does not answer and which the Minister did not answer this evening. The first is: when will the provisions of the White Paper come into operation; and the second, how will they be paid for? These two questions are agitating the mind of everybody. The Minister did make an effort to answer the first one when he repeated the statement that he hopes to implement the provisions by the end of next year but anybody listening to the Minister's speech and hearing him use such words about the provisions as that "they will be complex, they will need consideration, the legislation will need long debates here, various people will have to be consulted" would have to come to the conclusion that it is most unlikely that they will be implemented by the end of 1967. However, time will tell.

The following is an extract from page 9 of the introduction to the White Paper:

The changes proposed are complex and fairly costly. Their complexity rules out any question of their introduction in the immediate future, as it will take some time to prepare and consider the legislation which will be needed to give effect to them. Expenditure on developments in the services of the order proposed could not, in any event, be undertaken in the existing financial circumstances.

I think it all means that we are going to have to wait and wait for a long time. That is why I suggest that the Minister should give effect immediately to such proposals as the extension of ophthalmic, dental, and aural facilities, the increasing of the maternity grant from £4 to £8 and the lessening of the means test for the disability allowance. Those are things which can be dealt with without any consultation, except perhaps with the Minister for Finance.

The next question is how is this to be financed? The Minister has been gloriously vague here. In paragraph 116 of the White Paper, in black print we have the following:

They propose,—

that is, the Government—

therefore, that the cost of the further extensions of the services should not be met in any proportion by the local rates.

End of black print. In small print, it continues:

Following this decision, other possible sources of revenue to meet the additional costs are being considered but it seems likely that the general body of the central taxation must bear the major part of the burden.

End of small print, and then again in black print:

Pending further consideration of the methods by which extension of the health services will be financed in future years, the Government have decided to make arrangements which will ensure that the total cost of the services falling on local rates in respect of the year 1966-67 will not exceed the cost in respect of the year 1965-66.

You have some vague expressions there by the Minister that other sources are being explored.

I was glad to hear the Minister say that he was considering a compulsory social insurance fund because, you know, that is the Fine Gael suggestion. That has been the Fine Gael suggestion for financing any such scheme down the years. We never advocated that the State should provide a free-for-all health service, but we did suggest, and we do suggest, that it is the duty of the State to organise such a service, which is a very different thing. It is the duty of the State to organise an adequate service and it should be paid for by contributions from the employer, from the employee and by the self-employed, with a subvention from the State.

There are plenty of precedents for that. There is a precedent for it in the Social Welfare Act, about which the Minister spoke today. Workmen's compensation is now being taken over by the State and run on a somewhat similar basis. I am glad to see that even at this late stage, the Minister, having accepted the Fine Gael provision of a free choice of doctor, has gone one further step, and says that he is now considering the Fine Gael method of financing the scheme. I am convinced that if the Minister considers it sufficiently and with an unbiased mind, if he considers it on his own, without being bedevilled by some of his colleagues, he will come down on the side of the social insurance system of financing the scheme as the only system in keeping with the provision of a proper health system and in keeping with the dignity of the people who use it.

The Minister, in paragraph 117 of his White Paper, goes on to suggest some sort of a national charge in which the poor counties would be relieved and the richer counties would have to bear a greater portion of the burden. That, again, is certainly quite a way from the system whereby the rates have to bear their proportion of the health services. The Minister, in this White Paper, has displayed here and there some thinking which is difficult to follow and which seems to be out of keeping with Government—I was going to say "thinking"—propaganda over the years. On page 25 of the White Paper, it is disclosed that we have a smaller number of people between the ages of 15 and 65 in this country in relation to our population than any country in Europe. It is no harm to go through them. I have not bored the House with statistics so far but this is very interesting. The percentage of people between the ages of 15 and 65 in this country and some western European countries, in relation to the population, disregarding the odd figures, is: Ireland, 57; Belgium, 64; Denmark, 64; England, 65; France, 62; Germany, 67; Netherlands, 60; Northern Ireland, 61; Norway, 63; Scotland, 64; Spain, 64; Sweden 66; Switzerland, 66.

Did the Deputy give the reference?

(Cavan): I think I did, but I will give it again: page 25, paragraph 33 of the White Paper, which we are discussing. That shows that we have a smaller proportion of working people, productive people in relation to our population than any country in Europe. That, of course, is clearly due to emigration over the years. I do not propose to initiate a discussion on emigration but I am amazed to see that that is something the Government propose to take note of in the development in future years of our health services.

Further down, this paragraph states:

Thus, the health services for each one hundred of the population in Ireland must be paid for by only 58 economically active persons, while in the other countries listed there are from 61 to 67 such person to pay for the health services for each one hundred in the population. The lesson from this is obvious: if the burden of our health services on the limited numbers who will have to pay for them is to be tolerable, then their development must be planned so as to ensure the utmost efficiency and economy in their administration and so as to avoid expenditure on services (or extensions of services) not demonstrated to be reasonably necessary.

I object to the thinking there because, as I say, it is out of line with Government propaganda.

We seem to be planning our health services for the years to come on the basis that we are going to have a very small percentage of our people working and producing wealth. That is a sorry outlook. I would rather see the Minister proceeding on the basis that in some years to come, even the mythical year of 1970, we would have a much bigger proportion of our people productively engaged at home.

As I have said, I shall deal briefly, before I conclude, with the Fine Gael proposals for health and the Fine Gael way of providing the wherewithal to operate the health services. One thing struck me, and I do not think we should close a discussion on the White Paper without referring to it, that is, the capital expenditure over the past number of years, from 1948 to 1965, nearly 20 years, which amounted to something like £34 million. The capital expenditure on health—the provision, I presume, of hospitals and that sort of thing—amounted to £34 million from 1948 to 1965. I do not think we broke our hearts in providing that amount of money for the provision of hospitals. An important thing with regard to this is that out of that approximate sum of £34 million, £21.6 million was provided by the Hospitals Trust Fund. It would be less than grateful to close this debate without expressing the gratitude of the House and of the country to the directors of the Hospitals Trust Fund for providing that amount of money. When you compare that with the State's contribution from the national Exchequer which amounted to only £7.3 million, the local contribution being £6 million approximately, as I say, I do not think we broke our hearts.

The final part of the White Paper deals with the proposal to abolish the county unit, as we understand it today, and to operate presumably the hospital and specialist provisions on a regional basis. I do not propose to go over that in detail but I concede that in the year 1966 the county unit is most probably too small and that it is not possible to give a highly specialised specialist and hospital service on a county basis. I agree that that is something which will have to be looked into carefully. It would be a pity to go from one extreme to the other. Regions with a quarter of a million people in each could be too large. The Minister must be thinking in terms of the present regions because I think there is a region comprising Cavan, Longford, Louth and Meath for orthopaedic services with something more than a quarter of a million people in it. That is probably too large. It is something which needs careful consideration before any definite decision is taken on it. Furthermore, if a specialised hospital is to be set up in one county, say, a surgical hospital in one county, the medical hospital should be situate in another, and so on. In other words, there should be a fair distribution of the services throughout the country.

So much for the White Paper. It has its shortcomings. The choice of doctor is accepted for what it is. The retention of the means test in any shape or form is to be deplored. We have heard the Minister from those benches time and again querying the health policy of Fine Gael. Yet he comes in here this evening accepting the cardinal principle of that policy—the free choice of doctor—and telling us he is seriously considering the financial aspect of it. The Fine Gael health policy is quite simple. We propose that there should be a comprehensive health service organised by the State which will provide a free choice of doctor for 85 per cent of the people, provide free hospital treatment for the groups now known as the lower-and middle-income groups, without this half million pounds contribution; that it should be financed by a compulsory social insurance contribution from the employer, from the employed and from the self-employed, with a contribution of approximately one-third from the State. There is no mystery about that. It is workable, and has been worked in one form or another, in practically every country in Europe. We share, with Finland, the stigma of being the only countries in Western Europe which have failed to organise—and "organise" is the word, rather than provide—a proper health system for their people.

It is vitally important that we should have such a health service at the present time. Over the past two or three years, we had the Minister for Justice introducing a Succession Bill on the basis that we must keep up with Europe if we are going in there. We also had a Patents Bill on the ground that it was essential that we should keep in touch with continental patent laws if we were to enter the Common Market of Europe. We had a Copyright Bill on the same basis, and all those were introduced in 1962 and 1963, but it is not until 1966 that we have a White Paper on health which— even with its shortcomings—might equip us to enter Europe. I take it the Minister agrees and the House agrees that a proper health system, in keeping with continental standards, is much more of a condition precedent to entering Europe than a Succession Bill, an Extradition Bill, a Patents Bill or a Copyright Bill. In so far as the Minister may want any assistance from the Fine Gael Party in providing that, he will get it. The Minister has stated it will take a long time to talk about this, to get it through the Dáil. I will give him this assurance on behalf of the Fine Gael Party—we will facilitate the passage through this House and Seanad Éireann of the proposals in this White Paper as an instalment of a proper health service for the people of this country, but only as an instalment of the policy which we advocate.

The Minister will be facilitated in every way by this Party in this House and in the Seanad but we will accept these proposals only as a belated instalment of a proper health service. We will continue to advocate in the House and in the country the full implementation of the Fine Gael policy on health. We assure the Minister that, on taking office, we will implement such of the remainder of our policy as he and his Government may fail to put into force during their sojourn over there, although, if he accepts the free choice of doctor—as he has—and if he is considering the financing of our proposal, I would appeal to him to go the whole hog and abolish the means test. If he is going to finance it on our lines, as apparently he is now seriously considering doing, is there any reason why he should not abolish the means test?

And the Deputy will support him in getting the financial help to do so.

Mr. T.J. Fitzpatrick

(Cavan): I will not go to Germany anyway.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
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