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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 22 Mar 1966

Vol. 221 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Resolution No. 12: General (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That it is expedient to amend the law relating to customs and inland revenue (including excise) and to make further provision in connection with finance.
—(Minister for Finance.)

Last Wednesday I followed Deputy Fitzpatrick of Fine Gael and I spent most of the time available to me then in answering some of the points he raised. However, there is one point which I overlooked and it is a point which has become more pertinent over the weekend, that is, in relation to our force in Cyprus and, in fact, in relation to our peace-keeping activities throughout the world.

Deputy Fitzpatrick says we cannot afford to have a force in Cyprus and that we have no obligation, moral or otherwise, to keep a force in Cyprus. This is a thing that we should all be very careful about because, as we are not a member of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation, as we have no military alliance, we are in a particular position which makes the part we have to play extremely important. I do not know if the Government made a decision on this matter this morning but I would urge them to let us continue to play our role in the cause of world peace. There is little doubt that for some little time more the presence of a United Nations Force in Cyprus is almost essential if we are not to see a break in the alliance, in the North Atlantic Organisation, between Turkey and Greece, which could lead to a full scale conflict between these two countries. The small force we have there—small by world comparisons but substantial in relation to our resources—is of extreme importance and it would be a very bad thing if we were to give a lead in pulling our forces out. We should continue to maintain these forces there. The efforts that have been made by our Minister for External Affairs in the United Nations and elsewhere have been well worthwhile and we have a very special role to play in this regard.

On Wednesday I asked that in future money spent on personal health should be a deductible item for income tax purposes and I should like to extend that now by including education, because if all the money spent on education, over and above the allowances incorporated in our tax system, could be deducted when making one's income tax return, it might encourage many more people to send their children to secondary schools and later on to university. This would be a good thing and it would save the expense of educating them in the national schools. When I reported progress last Thursday——

A Deputy

That does not make sense.

——I was dealing with what I described as a tax on marriage. Under the present tax laws, married people with independent incomes have their two incomes added together and sometimes the wife is allowed a personal allowance of not more than £40 per annum, and the combined incomes are taxed. There are wives who will make a sacrifice by taking employment, either parttime or whole-time, in order to bring in additional money in the hope that, by spending it on their children, the children can move into a position of higher status in the years to come. In spite of the high ideals in our Constitution, existing legislation makes it cheaper for people to live in sin. This was not such a serious problem when these tax laws were brought in some considerable time ago. I thought I knew something about tax laws until we got hold of this document, "Income Tax in Simplified Form", which consists of some 400 foolscap pages. I hope an all-Party Committee will get together on this and cut it down to perhaps one-eighth of its size. I have looked at it——

We would be more interested in cutting down the Budget.

What services does Deputy Harte want to cut out? This is the rock on which Fine Gael have perished time and again, saying that they will have services without making provision for them. At least the Labour Party made an attempt by focussing attention on income tax. If the rate were raised to the English level of 8s. 3d. in the £, income tax would balance the Budget.

(Interruptions).

Order. Deputy Lemass might be allowed to make his speech.

The Deputy knows that it will be better for himself not to vote for the Budget.

I will come back to my point about the tax on marriage. We had comments in the Sunday Independent to the effect that this was a bad Budget. This is not a bad Budget. There is nothing bad about it. It is a difficult Budget. No Budget is a bad Budget which is balanced——

Hold a general election and the Deputy will get his answer.

——at a time when the country is making actual progress. The progress made this year and the progress made last year, in relation to the national product, will be greater than anything achieved before 1957. This is on record.

What is the Minister for Transport and Power saying?

An increase of one per cent was all that would satisfy the Coalition and in fact then they lost two per cent and we had an election because they had not got the courage to come in and put on the taxes. There was a deficit of £14 million. It is grand to talk over there without responsibility. As I was saying, this system of taxing working wives may not have been extremely serious when it was introduced but modern trends are such that we must have another look at it. In England now, more than 50 per cent of all wives are working or have some form of income over and above their husband's. This trend is apparent not only in England but all over Europe, and it is, in fact, growing.

Now it is: "Get your wives out to work". It used be: "Wives, get your husbands out to work".

It has been turned around all right.

As I was saying, if this trend continues, where more and more wives are going to work, it will become more and more apparent how tax legislation is in conflict with the aims and objects of our Constitution as set down in Article 40. As the knowledge of this situation becomes more widespread, there will be a temptation for more and more young people to set up house outside of wedlock.

Come again?

The family is our great strength in this country and we must do away with provisions which at present make it cheaper to live in sin.

Is this a gospel meeting we are at?

If the Deputy knows nothing about it, he would do better to remain quiet. There can be no argument about this. In modern society there is a direct tax on marriage, and I object to it. To be more specific, it is a direct tax on the middle and better income groups who are married, as the lower income group probably escape. We in Ireland attach such importance to the married state that most of us are prepared to make great sacrifices in order to become married. Traditional moral factors are probably responsible for this. But this can be no vindication of the moral status of these tax laws, which could be described as a State subsidy on casual associations. From no ethical point of view can the argument that rectification of this situation would be expensive to the Exchequer be sustained. The more expensive it is to the Exchequer, the greater the tax on marriage.

What we require is an innovation of policy which would give marriage and the family a place in the taxpaying system corresponding with the continual lip service we give to the national importance of the family institution. In the United States the incomes of husband and wife are aggregated and each is taxed on half of the aggregate. In other countries this process of aggregation and division is extended to the family. Each child counts as a percentage of a person for the purpose of the division. In this way family allowances as well as other deductible allowances are dealt with.

Details of the income tax code would relevantly arise on the Finance Bill.

I shall conclude on this. Such laws are in force elsewhere. Why then should a nation, which professes to regard the family as the essential foundation of the state, not do more to give recognition to that status in the system of public finance?

I should like to congratulate the Minister for going some of the way with regard to what could be described as the penal legislation in relation to death duties. Great concern was expressed last year in the House and subsequently outside it regarding the system under which a man who has a pension, which transfers to his wife, might die at an early age and the Revenue Commissioners could say that the wife's life expectancy was so many years, that she would get so much over those years and, therefore, she must pay tax on the gross amount of death duties.

I heard of a case where this was worked out under the legislation in force up to the new Budget. The Revenue Commissioners, in fact, demanded over £1,000 from the widow, who was going out on a pension just short of £10 a week. In other words, the Revenue Commissioners said to her: "You cannot collect your pension until you sell your house which your husband has been buying on mortgage over a long number of years and pay us what we require." Fortunately, the Revenue Commissioners have discretion and it was not enforced. But this situation could still arise under the existing legislation. However, the increase in the amount allowed will do away with most of the difficulty in this regard.

The Minister pointed out that he chose to adopt indirect taxation as distinct from the turnover tax to raise this money because of the probable effects on the cost-of-living figure. As the House is aware, a prices freeze was brought into operation last year. Nevertheless, if anybody would be able to absorb the extra taxation or go further and absorb extra wages and higher costs of materials, I gather Deputy Fitzpatrick would then have them investigated because they might have been making too much beforehand. This is a great way to encourage people to try to absorb any rise in costs. I am sure most of Fine Gael would not go along with Deputy Fitzpatrick's thinking in that regard.

I agree with the point expressed by the Labour Party and by Deputy Dillon here today that we should insist on the stamping of the net contents of all packets and containers of goods sold to the consumer. This is important if we are to have effective price control. I hope the Minister for Industry and Commerce will have another look at it.

It does not arise relevantly in this debate.

It is clear this Budget intends to offset inflationary tendencies. For that reason this would have been a good time to introduce a capital gains tax. There is some feeling abroad that some speculators buying and selling stocks, shares, stamps and property can make vast sums of money and evade the payment of their fair contribution to the Exchequer. I have heard it argued that the absence of a tax on capital gains contributes towards inflation because the people who make quick money are more likely to spend it quickly, thereby creating additional inflationary tendencies. The Minister might have another look at this matter of a capital gains tax in relation to the antiinflationary effects it might have.

In a period of high taxation of large incomes and high death duties the owners of large property resources must find their desire to conserve capital much weakened. They are more likely to draw on that capital to maintain their personal hight standard of living. There should be no difficulty about introducing such a capital gains tax because varying forms of it can be found in the tax codes of several European countries. Capital gains have been taxed in the United States since the introduction of income tax in the Federal code in 1913. I do not want to suggest what form such a tax should take here but simply request the Minister to examine the advisability of introducing it and letting us have by 1967 at the latest his conclusions and his reasons for arriving at them.

Deputy Corish was very concerned about the flight from the land and wanted to know what could be done about it. Apparently, he accuses the Government of failure in their programmes and plans because the gains made in employment in the industrial sector have been then offset by the loss in the agricultural sector. In the OECD Observer last month under a heading “Integrating farm workers into industrial and urban life”, it is shown that in many countries more than one-third of all the agricultural workers have left the land. I know that this is so also in the mid-west of the United States, which I visited in the last two or three years. It is a problem, the solution of which has defeated statesmen and economists not only here but throughout the world. Earl Attlee at one time suggested in the British House of Commons that instead of giving farmers tractors, they should be given shovels, thereby employing ten men instead of one, but the then Minister of Agriculture said: “Why not go further and give them spoons, thereby employing 100 men?” That is not the solution. The farming community cannot sustain as many people, if there is to be a more equitable distribution of our national wealth, and if the people living on the land are to have the high standard of living we would desire for them.

I do not accept that this is a bad Budget. Australia is a developing country, a country that is seeking private and State development, but they will not borrow money by way of national loan the way we do. If they want £20 million, a sum which we will borrow in the autumn, they will raise it by way of taxation. This is good economics but to raise £20 million this year by way of taxation would be bad politics.

They are lucky in Australia that they have not got a Fianna Fáil Government.

Nevertheless, it would be good economics. If the Government were wrong last year in financing their programme which everybody wanted—everybody wanted the extra services that were being provided by way of borrowing—by borrowing and took from the business community and private industry money that would otherwise be invested perhaps in housebuilding or for other industrial productive purposes——

Private enterprise would make a profit; the Government did not.

The Government are now trying to make that money available to private enterprise to make a profit next year, and we hope it will.

How does the Deputy arrive at that conclusion?

The Deputy should allow Deputy Lemass to make his speech.

The problem is that human demands are rising faster than the national economy can afford. The Government, employers, workers and farmers' representatives must get together—and this is a very difficult thing to do—to agree on restraints, whenever restraints appear necessary. Disagreement on the proper course to take will only slow down the increase in employment, slow down improvements in the standard of living and in the social services. It is important for everybody to understand what this Budget means and what it is trying to do. I appeal to Deputy Harte to try to understand it and then we might get somewhere.

There is no need to appeal to Deputy Harte. The naked truth has been revealed at last.

Having listened to Deputy Lemass dilating on the danger to morality inherent in suggestions made in this House, I am forced, like many others, to the conclusion that Ireland is rearing them yet. His reference to wives working brought my mind back to a day in 1957 when I was walking down some street in Dublin with the late-lamented Brendan Behan who drew my attention—it was election time—to the Fianna Fáil posters on the wall, and one of them read: "Wives, get your husbands out to work."

Back to work.

The poster opposite read: "And let us get cracking." Deputy Lemass wants to change that. We may expect to see posters with the slogan: "Husbands, get your wives out to work," if what he has said in the course of his remarks here carries any weight in the policy making, smoky back rooms of his Party. There is one word to describe this Budget and that is, diabolical, and that is the word that has been used to describe it throughout the country. Whatever explanations may be trotted out in this House, all that the ordinary working people know is that this Budget is about to work upon them a wage reduction of not less that 11/- per week in the average case. Along with that we have these exhortations from the Fianna Fáil Front Bench for increased production at all costs.

This Budget has shown that the so-called programmes of economic expansion were no more than a mixture of astrological predictions and they carry, in the circumstances of to-day, all the validity of a stamp auction catalogue. To think that the prophets of this spurious writ have been put in charge of the country's affairs instead of being simply put in charge! One would be tempted indeed to invite the attention of the Board of Censorship to the questionable morality of the so-called programmes for economic expansion, if that body were not so busily engaged with literature.

I had occasion before to comment on the Taoiseach's histrionic abilities, and these were never seen to greater effect than during his recent television broadcast on the Budget when he had with him his pet prompter who, he said quite openly, was his own selection. Of course, being his pet prompter and his own selection, this gentleman proceeded to put to him the most awkward questions he possibly could. In the course of his defence of the penal measures which this Budget proposes in relation to the ordinary people of the country, the Taoiseach had the gall to complain bitterly that the members of the Opposition had not rushed to his aid with patent nostrums for the illness of the economy. The Taoiseach has a very short memory when he likes. I heard him tell an inter-Party Government in this House that it was no function of an Opposition to provide remedies for the sick policies of an ailing Government. Whatever may have been the case then, it is undoubtedly true today that this country needs a major operation to cure our national ailment which is government by pretence.

It is, I think, fair to say that the only tangible, not to say edible, results of the expansion novelettes have been ministerial seven-course dinners, la dolce vita of the world of Chateauneuf du Pape, being paid for by—I should like to use a word here but am prevented from doing so by parliamentary custom and usage, not to mention the laws relating to obscenity—being paid for by the ——, an adjective I shall leave to your imagination, Sir—5/-being given in November next to the poor.

If we, the Opposition, have not shown any great anxiety to shore up the sagging fortunes of the Fianna Fáil Party, the same cannot be said of the Very Reverend—I mean, Deputy —P.J. Burke. He has addressed himself to this question of national finance in his best stained-glass manner. In the long and chequered history of this nation, we have had mention of Wood's Halfpence and Parnell's pound. Now we have Burke's tanners. Prehistoric milestones in our march towards prosperity! Indeed, there might be added a fourth, namely, the proposal of Blessed Martin—I am sorry; I mean Deputy—Corry to tax bingo.

Deputy Burke and Deputy Corry should join forces. And I should like to ask now why has this dazzling amalgam of financial wizardry been given no chance in the smoky back rooms—in the smoky, not to mention ill-swept back rooms—of the Fianna Fáil Party. It must be jealousy. I should like to ask another question: is it correct, as rumour has it outside, that these Deputies are pressing on to their rightful places as Front Bench spokesmen of the Government in matters financial? If that is so, then I envisage a proposition to make use of this Dáil Chamber during the recess as a bingo parlour. But I draw the line there.

A Deputy

It is stupid enough, anyway.

I agree. It could emanate only from the quarter from which it came. Deputy Burke's suggestion of tanner bonds and Deputy Corry's bingo tax, and all the talk of bingo bands and republican tanner bonds—no, I do not think that will work. In another generation maybe, but not in this one—not twice in a lifetime.

The Taoiseach, in the course of his very capable walking-on parts at Montrose, capable in the sense of their consummate Thespian artistry, if you will forgive the expression, brought to his speculative conceptions all the energy of error. I have often observed in the course of the years, listening to him, that righteousness generates its own damaging vitality. The Labour Party consider it the function of an Opposition to bring to their task a ready scepticism of the policy of the Government. This is for the public good. The alternative to this attitude, and this policy of the Labour Party, is nothing more than an idolatrous worship such as is to be seen every day here in the Fianna Fáil pews. This worship promotes the delusion of political infallibility and can lead only to the certain end of all unbraked and misdirected power, which is a fatal national crash.

The Government blame for their present problems outside circumstances, amongst other things. As Deputy Corish very correctly pointed out in the course of his criticism of the Budget on television, the Fianna Fáil Party has the knack of taking credit for anything good that happens, regardless of what may have been the occasion of its happening, and blaming outside influences for anything that occurs which does not improve the position of the people.

Over the years, since we first heard of these productions entitled the First and Second Programmes of Economic Expansion, it has often struck me that very few people have ever read these documents, apart from the composers in the first instance, the civil servants who wrote them, and possibly some members of the Government, but, I am certain, by no means all members of the Government. I feel sure that the number of members of this House who have read these documents could be counted on one's fingers and toes. Outside, amongst the people, it would be impossible to say but, from my knowledge and from my contacts, I can say that I have never met anybody outside this House who has ever read either of these two documents. Their impact, therefore, upon the people has been nil.

The documents themselves have never proposed at any stage any definite, concrete steps to improve our economy. As I said earlier, they indulge in all kinds of fanciful, astrological predictions, wishful thinking, talking about what should be, very much like the Fianna Fáil election manifestos, in fact, of earlier years. All this bunkum, and it is noting less than bunkum, to which we have listened about programmes of economic expansion has been a pretence, a snare and a delusion, deliberately created to baffle and bemuse still further an already bewildered electorate and to lead them on.

But what caused this apparent plenty which seemed to be abroad within the past six or seven years? Where did it come from? Not from any conscious act of the Government. It was perfectly obvious to me that any prosperity that was there—it is fast disappearing now, as we know—was due to the overspill of the industrial boom on the Continent of Europe in so far as it affected the British economy and, in turn, in so far as the British economy affected us. The activities of this Government here, in relation to that matter, had no effect whatsoever but the pretence has been that, whatever good there was, Fianna Fáil brought it. Now that things are beginning to go badly, it is somebody else's fault—not ours—or it is due to influences outside the country.

Here we are, with our eyes fixed on Europe, and, mark you, these Europhistic delusions of the Government are displaying themselves in many distressing forms. One of the symptoms I may mention was the recent, I thought, somewhat churlish attempt of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to invade the publicity of that very fine young artiste, Dicky Rock, on the occasion of his arrival at the airport. However, it was happily obvious that the fans were not prepared to permit the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to make Charlies out of them.

I met a man the other day who said to me: "With all this charge towards Europe, our traditions are going by the board". "What do you mean?" I asked him. He replied: "What has happened to the Féile Pádraig in the Mansion House—no rinnce fada, no féile fada, even. We just have some gentleman playing on the ivories the Fianna Fáil tune to the taxpayer ‘It had to be you'." These are just side symptoms of this fantasia into which we have been led by the Fianna Fáil Government.

In the course of his remarks on television, the Taoiseach expressed disgust with the Opposition and their attitude in so far as the Budget is concerned. Of course, Governments are notoriously disgusted with Oppositions. However, the Taoiseach said something in the course of his remarks which was very true. He said that agricultural incomes will be increased as a result of the Trade Agreement. I think this is true, in so far as I know anything about agriculture—and I do not claim to know a great deal, unlike some members of this House who claim to have invented agriculture. I have a passing acquaintance with it.

In my constituency, there are a number of agriculturists—we used to call them farmers at one time. Let us see how their incomes will be increased by the Trade Agreement referred to by the Taoiseach in the course of his remarks on the Budget.

If we look at the Evening Herald of 6th March, 1966, we see on the front page the headline that the first deal in the Anglo-Irish free trade area has been announced. Underneath, we read that the doubling of the Irish butter quota to Britain in the coming year from April 1st next will be a deal without jam for the taxpayer. Irish creameries will export 24,000 tons of butter to Britain instead of 12,000 tones and, for this, the Irish taxpayer will be called on to pay £4,750,000 in what is called a bolster to losses on exports of butter and other dairy products. I think the actual figure was given today, in reply to a Parliamentary Question, as £4,100,000. The report continues to the effect that a spokesman for the Department of Agriculture said the total cost to the nation of supporting milk products next year will be £12,600,000 and, of this, £4,750,000 will be to make up the export losses mainly on butter.

In other words, it shows one way in which agricultural incomes may be increased. I shall leave it to the experts to say whether in fact it will be increased. I do know this, and it is perfectly obvious—he who runs may read—that we are over-producing butter and have been over-producing butter for a long time, so much so that we have to pay the British to eat our surplus. This is subsidisation on a grand scale.

"Subsidy" is a dirty word in the lexicon of most of the Fianna Fáil Cabinet. It certainly was a dirty word in the vocabulary of Deputy MacEntee when he was Minister for Finance because he abolished all the food subsidies and subsidies were said to be very bad for the economy. It was held that if we had subsidies, it was fundamentally a fault. It could lead only to financial catastrophe if we pursued a policy of subsidies. Therefore, subsidies were lifted from the foodstuffs of the workers who, after all, are easily handled if you bring enough propaganda to bear upon them. If you drench them sufficiently with propaganda, probably you would have a hope of doing what the Fianna Fáil Party have been successful in doing for the past 30 years, that is, to get them to troop in to vote for you at the polls. Therefore, at that time, the subsidies on food were abolished.

Did anybody ever have the temerity to suggest that the subsidies might be removed from butter? Did anybody ever have the temerity to suggest that butter production might be reduced? Did anybody ever have the temerity to suggest that there might be a plan in this connection? Did anybody ever have the temerity to suggest that our planners might usefully be employed in thinking up a long-term programme to reduce the production of butter to dimensions which suit this country by encouraging those who are now over-producing butter to go into other fields of agricultural activity which might be even more profitable than the production of butter? Has anybody ever suggested that? Faith, and they have not and, if they did, you would hear the cry of "national sabotage" raised high and mighty throughout this House —and I fear that the cry would not be confined to any one Party.

The workers, of course, could not be pandered to in that way and dealt with in that way. The subsidies on food could be cut. It did not matter if it meant an increase in the cost of living of the workers. But we must not interfere with the "backbone", though, mark you, it is a diminishing backbone, even looked at from the could, calculating and somewhat cynical point of view of its electoral value. The agricultural community is reducing in numbers. I venture to prophesy, from the depths of my few short years experience in this House, that, as it diminishes in numbers, sympathy for it in the major Parties will diminish and then, who knows what may happen? But, certainly, how any responsible Government setting about their business in an honest way could not but have regard to that situation wherein we have to export butter at a loss is beyond my comprehension and, I may say, is beyond the comprehension of very many thinking people in this country today. It is costing An Bord Bainne £469 a ton for Irish creamery butter and the Board then sells it to Britain at prices ranging from £300 to £330 per ton. That situation surely cannot be looked upon with equanimity by any Government or any Party who claim to be honest even in the remotest possible way.

On the other hand, there is no temerity in talking about the workers in this House or outside this House, about the faults or alleged faults of the working people, about strikes, for instance. If anybody brings up any awkward subject and the Government want to get away from it they talk about strikes, the workers, the dockers, the busmen or some other section of the community which is deemed to be acting in an anti-social way. They are always available to be used as whipping boys by our rulers when they feel they must deflect public attention from more fundamental and vital matters which trouble our economy.

Nobody suggests rationalisation in agriculture. The cutting of costs and the abolition of subsidies is something conserved for the people at the very bottom of the social scale. Similarly we find the same situation if we look at the question of income tax. I mentioned recently in this House the whole problem of income tax and suggested the desirability of spreading the burden a bit more fairly throughout the community. I will give one example. It is odd to think that a single person, a single woman working in this House— we do not have to go far—for very low wages must make an income tax return and, if she does not make it, it will be made for her. The same applies to every worker throughout the length and breadth of the land who has to work for wages. If he or she does not make an income tax return, it will be made for them by the employer. But one can have hundreds, thousands of acres of land and one will not be put to the trouble of making an income tax return.

Where is the morality or the justice in that? Why have Governments run away from that? The answer is in votes, is it not? The answer is in Dáil seats, is it not? But we are afraid to go near that problem, are we not, in case we might lose our tenuous position as a Government? Is it fair, though, to the widow who has to go to work, and work for very little? We will say she earns seven pounds a week, and she is lucky to get that in the present condition of things. Is it fair that she should have to pay income tax and the wealthy farmer should not be asked to pay income tax at all?

Let us have a look at some of the figures related to this problem. It is estimated this year that people paying income tax under PAYE will have paid £15 million. How much money do you think is forthcoming from the wealthy farmers? I am not talking about—and let me emphasise this for those who may be transmitting reports to provincial papers for re-hashing and re-publication as was done on the occasion of my last reference here— the many thousands of small farmers who would not fall due to pay income tax because their incomes would not justify it. I am referring to the many thousands of farmers who should be paying income tax because their incomes justify it. Why did the Minister for Finance not relieve the burden on the taxpayers by extending the income tax code to such persons, by extending the income tax impositions to such persons? In other words, why should the young man and woman trying to rear a family, living, we will say, in Walkinstown or in any other suburban area, trying to buy a house, saving, doing their best to get along, to educate their children and making sacrifices, have to pay income tax, while, at the same time, somebody with ten times their wealth is not asked to pay income tax?

Surely these questions can be justifiably asked in this House and answers given to them? It is anticipated that £15 million will be paid by those wage earners I have mentioned in the coming year. How much do you think will come from the wealthy landowners, and I am talking about the big landowners, not the poor hard-working farmer who has been excoriated so strenuously in this House on so many occasions? The sum of £66,000 in a system of taxation based upon a national idea related to his valuation. That type of farmer will pay, in the coming year, something in the neighbourhood of £66,000 into the national exchequer to keep the essential services going, while the hard-pressed worker and salary earner paying income tax under PAYE will contribute £15 million. Is there justice in that, I ask the Taoiseach?

This matter was raised before but the Taoiseach made no reference to it. Some time ago I suggested in this House—I think it was in 1961 or 1962 —that the Taoiseach and the Fianna Fáil Party were making an effort, after the departure of you-know-who from the leadership of that Party, to project the then Deputy Lemass, now Taoiseach, as the farmers' friend, and indeed he has, at various elections, paraded the country and talked softly into the ears of the agricultural community.

It is to be noted that the astrologers who backgrounded the programmes— so-called—to which I have referred for economic expansion but more likely for economic extinction—day after day that is the way the picture develops— the planners who produced these works, estimated that there would be a reduction in the number of persons living on the land by 1970 of something like 6,000 people, if I do not make a mistake. In fact, more than that have gone. Since these programmes were first invented, more than that number have already gone. How many will be gone by 1970? God only knows how many will be gone. We get the excuse that this is an international trend.

We had that young philosopher of the Fianna Fáil Party, Deputy Lemass, telling us about what was happening in Australia, what was happening in West Germany, and what was happening last year when he was in, I think, Minnesota, as if there were any comparison between those places, with their highly industrialised economies, with their tremendous resources of all kinds eternally creating an attraction into the cities from the rural areas, and this country. How many times have we listened here to the abominable cliché about agriculture being the backbone of the nation, until the phrase has lost its meaning. Everyone who has come into this House has used that cliché. I must plead guilty that in my more jeiune and innocent days, I took spoke of agriculture being the backbone of the nation.

Accepting that it is a fact that we are basically an agricultural country, and also accepting the fact that we are sick and tired of hearing it, and of listening to Deputy Lemass comparing us with the relatively highly developed economy in Australia, and the highly developed economies of Western Europe and mid-west America, one begins to wonder what sort of people come into this House and by what standards do the electorate judge them. There is this continuing—and it appears that there will be a continuing —departure from the rural areas. It is common experience for us that if we have occasion to go down the country to the west or the south, we observe to whoever is with us, or to our neighbours when we come back, how few people we saw on the roads, or how few children we met going to school if it was early in the morning.

The people obviously are going, and it is incumbent on any Government to try to stop this haemorrhage—there I go again slipping into clichés—or to stop this running away from the land. No one has really made any effective effort in that direction. The answer is not easy, if, indeed, there is any answer at all. Certainly the will seems to have vanished, and the interest seems to have vanished, and from my observation there has developed a complete cynicism in regard to the rural areas.

The anxiety on the part of the young people living in the rural areas seems to be to get to Dublin or one of the other cities, at all costs, where there are soft living and bright lights—and that is not unnatural for young people—or to get across the water. Boys and girls are coming back with fairy tales of the streets being still paved with gold, and of money for nothing. It must be admitted—and I know it from personal experience—that more money can be got in England for less work than can be got here. There is no evidence of a will or an anxiety on the part of the Government to stop this disastrous trend, or to stem it, if we cannot stop it, to delay it, and hold it back for as long as we can, at least for the very short span of our lifetimes. Rather than being delayed, the whole process is being hastened. That is a tragedy, because as surely as the depopulation of the rural areas goes on, so surely will the Irish nation be reduced in size, in influence and in numbers.

This may not seem to be of any importance to many people nowadays, especially to the more cynical generation of younger people who come here and regard politics as a career to be followed, and regard this as a sort of arena in which one can show off effectively and not care very much at the back of it all. There are some of us who are oldfashioned enough to think that this nation is a body to which we are proud to belong, which we want to see live, develop and become great among the nations of the world, in the context of its own size and relations. That thought may perhaps even deter some of us from this rush into Europe. We have been hearing a great deal of talk about the urgency of our getting into Europe.

Looking at the British election campaign scenes on television, and listening particularly to Mr. Harold Wilson who is a shrewd man, a shrewd politician, an Englishman with, no doubt, the interest of his own country deeply at heart, I note no great anxiety on his part to rush into the European jungle. Here it is different. One would almost imagine that we were pastmasters in the development of industry, and that we could harness ourselves overnight to compete with the economic cartels which exist in West Germany and elsewhere. That is a pernicious and dangerous economic doctrine which could spell not only economic disaster for us, but also the beginning of the end of the Irish nation as an entity if that concept were realised. Perhaps that is too sentimental for some of the more pragmatic members of the Government.

However, I should like to ask in the context of the weeping and wailing which is now going on, what has happened to the golden age which was heralded by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries not so long ago. It has turned out to be an age of goldbrick deception. The first and obvious result of the Budget is, as I say, to reduce the wage of workers. While that is happening, this Government, at banquets, are issuing lofty statements about the undesirability of people who work in this country looking for more wages and the awful fate that will befall us all if wage increases exceed an average of three per cent. It is a terrible thing to think that anybody can view with complacency the conditions of the lower-paid workers. I refer to those workers who earn £10 or less. You could very well regard anybody living in a city, particularly Dublin city, facing the rents and travelling costs which he has to face going to his work and facing costs relating to his family, receiving less than £14 a week as lowly-paid.

One speaks in terms of the real value of money and what it can get for you. The terrible thing is that not alone is nothing being done to ease their lot but a wage reduction is being inflicted on them. At the same time, they are being told they must not, and dare not, press for increased wages because of the disastrous effect it may have on the national economy. Sometimes I wonder, listening to all the jargon of the people who describe themselves as economists, and of politicians who have stumbled on the political lodestone of economics within the past ten years, how did we get on at all without it? I remember very well in the 1930s and early 1940s one heard nothing at all about things like gross national product, fixed capital formation or anything of that nature. Yet, we seemed to survive. We were not doing well, of course. In fact, people were doing very badly. As usual, as now, there were a number of people doing extraordinarily well and a large number of people doing very badly. Then another section of the people were doing desperately badly. That was the situation then and it is the situation now. I do not think the introduction of those confusing terms alters the position in any way. The development of this language is a gift. It is Heaven's gift to those who want to baffle and confuse the electorate.

I want to make one reference to something Deputy Dillon said last week. He was in order in saying it and I will refer to it very briefly now. He referred to Nelson's Pillar and the Mafia. I do not know how it relates to the Budget. I assume it does in some way relate to the expenditure of funds for the removal of the remains of the Pillar, and so on. Deputy Dillon ascribed the removal of the Pillar to the Mafia. I want to say I do not believe for one moment that Deputy Noel Lemass is a Sicilian and was he not the noblest Pillar-knocker of them all?

It is pointless, I know from experience, appealing at this stage, or indeed at any other stage, I suppose, for relief for the people in whom one is particularly interested. I am particularly interested in the lower-paid workers and in that class of people who carry this city and county on their backs and, incidentally, who carry us all. It is pointless, I know, appealing to the Government to relieve them. The Government are in the grip of this frenzy to get book-balances which, to my mind, are not in any way related to the actual facts of life. I venture this prophecy, that in the pursuance of that, they are sowing the seeds of their own eventual end. It seems to me we are witnessing in this Budget the beginning of the end of Fianna Fáil rule. It will not come tomorrow but it is coming as surely as the daylight because this Budget shows that the nation's affairs are in the hands of people who have lost touch with the reality of politics which is the need of the ordinary people.

There was a time when the Fianna Fáil Government might be said to have faced unpleasant facts with a certain courage. That time has gone apparently. I refer to an avenue of taxation which was open to them but which it would take political courage to follow. That lack of political courage always prefaces political death. A political Party will continue to exist only so long as it can convince the electorate of its own integrity. As far as I can judge, the corporate integrity of the Fianna Fáil Party is now regarded by all and sundry as a thing of the past.

The staged outcry by the Opposition Parties to the taxation imposed by a Budget is not a phenomenon unique to Ireland. This is the trend the world over wherever democracy exists. The Government usually have a choice either to halt all capital development and improvements in the social services or to forge ahead with socially desirable, productive and necessary projects. Were we to stand still in our housing, our schools, our hospitals and our factories, it would not be necessary to borrow. Were we not to borrow, taxation would not be required to service the debt otherwise created. Then again, were we to allow our social services to remain static with no improvement in our health services, and no increases to social welfare beneficiaries, were we to abolish the concept of subsidies for housing, for farming, for industry, the Budget would be a very easy task indeed.

Nothing has been provided for health services.

Mr. O'Malley

It would consist of making mild adjustments here and there. To some, this might be an attractive proposition but for the great majority, the ever-increasing demand for a better standard of living must be catered for within the country's capacity to meet the cost. Therefore, in an expanding economy and a developing country such as ours, taxation is inevitable and the argument then should really lie on the degree of such taxation and the method by which it is raised. It is naturally the anxiety of any Government to ensure that taxation is raised in the most equitable manner.

Such sources are limited. Nowadays, too, it is more appreciated that those who get increases in earnings must be prepared to contribute a proportion towards assisting the young and the old, those who have no other source of income except a share in the distribution of the wealth of the country, and the only method of effective distribution is the State. Herein, again, lies ground for discussion, criticism, and alternative proposals—in other words, the degree and the manner in which the nation's wealth is being directed or should be directed. Here, indeed, I am afraid the Opposition have shown themselves to be far removed from reality and until such time as they accept the basic principles I have mentioned they are, in my opinion, not performing in a proper manner the task they are supposed to carry out.

Say "yes" to everything.

Mr. O'Malley

Here, indeed, the Opposition might have food for thought. The standard of debate on this Budget has consisted of parrotlike utterances on the effects of the prices of drink and cigarettes on the worker, and equally nonsensical banalities.

It is hard on you.

Mr. O'Malley

In a democracy, for a Government to work effectively, a good Opposition is needed. That we have not got in Ireland at the present time. The main Opposition Party, Fine Gael, consist in the main of the leisurely type of politician who strolls into the Dáil when the Law Library closes. The Labour Party are living so far in the past that they continue to have a negative approach on all matters concerning the State.

They do not like it.

Mr. O'Malley

I did not interrupt, I sat silently while Deputy Seán Dunne was speaking. Perhaps the same courtesy would be extended to me by the remaining sole Member on the Labour benches. It is true we are passing through a period of acute unrest, particularly in the field of industrial relations. While the balance of payments problem in most other countries, allied to a world shortage of liquidity, does not make our task any easier, I believe the Government are facing up to the problems in a realistic, responsible manner and all the indications are that towards the end of this year the picture will have a more pleasant hue. There has been no mention by any Opposition speaker of the remarkable growth in the gross national product, in our exports and in our social services during the years since we took over from the Fine Gael-Labour consortium of 1957. Then, as we all remember, we had unemployment in the January-February period running at a rate of 100,000 and emigration was the highest this country had ever experienced——

The figure today is higher than 51,000.

Mr. O'Malley

——since the Famine. Notwithstanding the fact that we are going through a difficult period, no one can deny that the standard of living of our people has improved substantially. Deputy Dillon suggested a cut back. May I ask him on what he suggests we should cut back? Is it on schools, on hospitals, on houses, on factories?

Mr. O'Malley

Does he want us to cut back just for the sake of cutting back? Ireland is still a substantial creditor nation with substantial reserves. To throw in the sponge now because the tide may be running temporarily against us would be a defeatist attitude. Edmund Burke once said:

If we command our wealth we shall be rich and free; if our wealth commands us we are poor indeed.

Living in the past.

Mr. O'Malley

May I remind Deputy Dillon that we are dealing with people, that people are our prime concern and not fine academic statistical points for entry in the Statistical Abstract? It is quite true that in calculating our capital programme for the next financial year, to use an expression of my own, we did prune our Estimates with a blowlamp.

And burn them with it.

Mr. O'Malley

We had meeting after meeting during which we arrived at our priorities within the resources available to us and we believe our priorities are correct—housing, health, education, social welfare, aids to agriculture, industry. Deputy Dillon spoke in a derisory fashion during the year of our abandonment of certain projects such as the Kennedy Memorial Concert Hall. We did not abandon this. Planning is proceeding uninterruptedly but we still have not made a start on the physical construction. If our economic circumstances have not improved by the time planning is completed and ready to go for tender, we shall not make a start on it. The point I am making is that we can imagine Deputy Dillon waxing eloquent on the Government spending a million on a concert hall while houses in Dublin were falling down. I can well imagine his outcry had we agreed to proceed with the Canadian Trade Fair Exhibition stand when he would have pointed out how much could have been done with a saving of £300,000 or £400,000 in the result.

Last week Deputy Dillon spoke of anarchists. Last week I was in London. His speech got headlines in the British Press and the big talking point in London was Deputy Dillon's statement that this country was bankrupt. That is what I call anarchy and sabotage of the most insidious type. An American company announced last week also that they were not proceeding in Dundalk because of the bad position of industrial relations in Ireland but how many are there who were coming to Ireland and have now changed their minds since reading the bankruptcy statement of Deputy Dillon? I do not know, but I know they were there and they are not here now.

Last week Deputy Dillon decried the destruction of Nelson Pillar and was outraged at the challenge to the institutions of Government. It is a sentiment which we on this side of the House endorse but when he decides to represent it as an external sign of the bankruptcy of the country—as he did —surely we are entitled to question his sincerity. He has been a Minister of State himself and is aware of the seriousness of such allegations. He is aware that if the truth of his statements is accepted beyond our shores they can do the longterm prospects of Ireland immensely more damage than the irresponsible destruction of Nelson Pillar.

Than some of the statements of 1956 and 1957?

Mr. O'Malley

He is, in fact, dynamiting international confidence in the country——

The strikes were there before the statement.

Mr. O'Malley

——by laying charges at the plinth and pillars of the economy which, on the admission of his own Party Leader, is basically and fundamentally sound.

It must be, to stand up to Fianna Fáil.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Dillon may not like to be pictured as the leader of a tiny rump of economic anarchists but the fact remains that this is his position. Are we not entitled to ask whether the Deputy's motives are not more suspect than the motives of the "cheap little Mafia" which he condemned?

Was the Minister not one when he marched behind an anarchist's funeral in 1956?

Mr. O'Malley

At least one could suspect that they only wanted to rid Ireland of Nelson Pillar but Deputy Dillon, it seems to me, wishes to dynamite this country off the map of Europe. For what reason? Political pique.

Deputy Dillon would probably answer that he wishes to rid this country of Fianna Fáil. There are legitimate ways of doing that and the Deputy has led his Party to the polls against us and on these occasions he was defeated by Fianna Fáil. When the Deputy talks of the cynicism, as he did last week, of Ministers like myself I think it is only fair to remind him that we have a long way to go before we can match his performance of leading Fine Gael with a belatedly and hurriedly put together policy called "The Just Society" in which he did not believe. We can only thank him for having, belatedly, the honesty which he now shows by his regular attacks on that policy on the strength of which, one year ago to the day, he asked the people of this country to elect him as Taoiseach of a Fine Gael administration.

Deputy Dillon is an older man than I am—and a wiser one—and has twice suffered defeat at the hands of the people. He must be aware that it was once said that moral indignation is jealousy with a halo. We do not begrudge the Deputy his halo so long as it is appreciated how and why he has come by it but when he decides to take it off to use it as something on which he may string a ring of plastic explosives aimed at undermining the economy of the country abroad, this House should indeed be slow to indulge him. It is easy now looking back on some such speeches to see from where the silly rumours which were unfortunately believed by some people swept around the country that the Government was in such dire straits that in order to pay the civil servants it had to borrow from Arthur Guinness Son & Co. Ltd. One can imagine only too well the manner in which these completely unfounded rumours were encouraged by certain members of the Opposition.

The position in Ireland today is far too serious for elected representatives to continue to indulge in this national back-stabbing so as to score petty political points. It is a sorry reflection that we had the Leader of the Labour Party last week calling for a quorum when he knew Committees of the House were sitting and describing the Government's failure to supply a quorum as disgraceful.

And rightly so.

Mr. O'Malley

I remind Deputy Corish that a few weeks ago when I was introducing my Health Estimate, for a long portion of the time there was only one Deputy in the Labour Party benches, as there is at present. This is a type of political dishonesty which serves no useful purpose, certainly not here. May I remind the Opposition that the members of the Government have never, to my knowledge, raised objections to answering Parliamentary Questions when the questioner is not present? Evidently such courtesies are not appreciated.

It is true that this has been a sterile debate and its sterility can best be judged by the fact that we had secondrate politicians resorting to the tactics to which I have referred. Early in the debate, the Taoiseach challenged the Opposition to state the alternative to the Government's policy.

Did he supply the alternative in 1957?

Mr. O'Malley

Both Parties have sought refuge behind the cliché that it is not their place to suggest alternatives.

That is what the Taoiseach said.

Mr. O'Malley

More sterility. Are they not aware that they are only insulting their own supporters outside this House and the intelligence of the people?

The Budget proposals apart, Fine Gael have refused to pick up the challenge because the alternatives they are offering, this just society, is not acceptable to the people and they have not yet evolved any policy, or, at least, any coherent policy, to replace it. At a time they are claiming that our policy as set out in The Second Programme for Economic Expansion is in a shambles, their much vaunted policy and planning seems to be forgotten. Those elements in Fine Gael who were responsible for it have kept their mouths shut. Why is this, can any of them tell us? They have recently seen, I suppose, that the continental countries from which they filched their ideas have now, in the conditions of economic contraction which have come upon Europe, not been immune to these conditions, notwithstanding their planning bureaucracy.

If Fine Gael believe in their policy of a just society, they should come out and fight for it here in this House in debate after debate but they will not achieve it by having their Chief Whip running around the corridors looking for someone to come in to speak and by lawyers coming in shortly before the House is due to rise and calling for a quorum at 10.15 p.m.

That is completely unfair.

The Minister should speak about the Budget.

Mr. O'Malley

Why is it that my Party, the Government, can be slandered continuously——

The Minister is slandering us.

Mr. O'Malley

——and attacked by the Opposition Parties? We accept that this is one of the burdens of Government and Opposition and we accept these exchanges. I cannot understand why the Opposition, particularly Fine Gael, are completely intolerant of criticism of observations. Can they not sit down and let me make my speech without these interruptions?

I interrupted because I have a high regard for the Minister. His remarks are very unkind.

Mr. O'Malley

I do not exchange personalities with anyone. I am talking about broad political considerations.

Did the Minister not mention a Party Whip and Deputy Dillon?

Mr. O'Malley

I mentioned a Party Whip and the method by which he brought speakers in here, and surely that is not personal or hurtful?

It is completely untrue.

Mr. O'Malley

The people are entitled to the truth. Half truths will never pass as the currency of Opposition and it is well for Deputies on the other side to remember that.

The Minister's time is almost up.

Mr. O'Malley

If the Opposition really believe that the country is in such a bad way as they say it is and the economic conditions are as they describe them to be, they owe the people the duty of coming along to this House with something more than petty cynicism, a sneering attitude and jibes and interruptions. The truth of the matter is that Fine Gael and Labour have not been able to find any area in which the Government mismanaged affairs.

They have been ruled out of order by the Leas-Cheann Comhairle.

Mr. O'Malley

They have fallen back on foreign industrialists. That is the great target of attack of Fine Gael —foreign industrialists. It is politically safe, of course. They are small in number. They have no political influence and, of course, the word "foreigner" has its emotional appeal. It is an easy target. A politician can attack foreign industrialists without fear of losing votes. This seems to be the attitude, an attitude that is immature and cynical, as most of the contributions from the Opposition benches were. It does a disservice to a very small but significant segment of this community.

It would be no harm if the people who launch attacks on these foreigners were to take note of the gesture made by one recently. Herr Liebherr, in Killarney, who gives substantial employment to some of our people, donated a substantial sum towards the cost of a new school. We did not hear any praises on this occasion.

Showing up Government inefficiency.

The Minister praises himself enough.

Mr. O'Malley

Down the years in this House I have heard the itinerants being attacked from the point of view of agriculture, the farmers and house-holders, with a certain amount of merit. When the time comes when the itinerants get the vote, the old hypocritical attitude will change overnight.

They are entitled to it.

Mr. O'Malley

Reference was made by Deputy Barrett to the money expended on roads and the implication was that there could be a cutting down of this expenditure. At least, be it said, he has a point. At least, he came along with some proposition. In the first instance, we must remember that the average employment content in road work is about 14,000 persons and any cut-back on the present figure of the Road Fund grant would entail sacking people and as we are concerned primarily with people and, secondly, for our tourist industry, which plays such an important part in our economy, a first-class network of roads is absolutely essential. In this connection, I am sure most Deputies have read the comments of the noted travel writer, Elizabeth Nicholas, recently. Miss Nicholas spoke of our road system in a very favourable manner and referred to the great tourist countries of Europe, where the sun shines, and the appalling system of second-class roads which they have. These are all matters to be taken into consideration. Do not think that we did not look at this proposition of Deputy Barrett's. It is only fair to say that we did. We looked at everything.

The Minister has no imagination.

Mr. O'Malley

One thing which is quite obvious from reading the speeches in this debate is that there are very few Deputies, including the shadow ministers, in the Opposition, who bother to read Government publications or documents emanating from the Government. If they did read them, some of their comments and questions from time to time would be superfluous and rhetorical. It has been rightly said that there has been no time since the State was set up when the public have been so fully briefed on all facets of Government as they are at the present time. I merely want to suggest that there are many outside of this House who having studied these publications are far more competent to express opinions than are members of this House. A bit of homework——

Speak for yourself.

Mr. O'Malley

—— is not considered as part of some Deputies' responsibilities. It might be of some assistance to place on record again in a clear and lucid manner the reasons for our present economic difficulties.

The Fianna Fáil Government.

This is what you have asked in the Budget and never gave an answer.

Mr. O'Malley

I will give the answer in a clear and lucid manner with simple statements of fact. As we all know, from 1959 to 1964 the annual growth rate of this country was quite remarkable and then in May of last year——

How does the Minister arrive at that conclusion?

Mr. O'Malley

——the trade deficit became substantial. The British import levy imposed in October, 1964 was a severe blow and the growth in industrial exports disappeared; cattle exports dropped considerably and due to the bad harvest of 1964 substantial imports of cereals were necessary. Imports of machinery, car parts, jet planes for Aer Lingus, all contributed to our adverse balance.

The high cost of living and of administration.

Mr. O'Malley

Due to the money shortage, the inflow of capital fell, although it still remains at substantial proportions. It is correct to say that the Government's capital programme last year exceeded by eight per cent the figure envisaged in the Second Programme. For this we have been subjected to a great deal of criticism, not only from the Opposition but also from several self-styled economists, a species in which this country abounds, due to its easily acquired status. Surely if we erred in exceeding the capital programme enunciated in the Second Programme by eight per cent, and I do not believe we did, it was because of our anxiety to achieve more speedily the tasks which lay ahead of us? Were we wrong to try to build more houses?

And create more unemployment.

Mr. O'Malley

Were we wrong to spend more money than ever before on houses?

Where was this?

Mr. O'Malley

Were we wrong to build more schools?

Mr. O'Malley

I suppose in a way I could be held responsible for building more schools because when I was in the Board of Works, it was my constant endeavour—which was successful to a large degree—to speed up the eradication of the hovels which still predominate in this country. Were we wrong to spend more money on hospitals? Were we wrong to spend more money on industries? Were we wrong to plough so much into agriculture? Were we wrong to give this assistance to agriculture and to industry? Perhaps we went too fast but who indeed was able to see the cumulative effect of the inhibiting factors which I mentioned earlier and which Senator Garret FitzGerald on one occasion—I think in the supplement to a national paper—described by saying "everything happened at once"? That was Senator FitzGerald's explanation of how, after a period of annual growth, we suddenly found ourselves in our present—let us call it without pulling any punches—our present economic plight.

The Minister uses the economists when it suits him. He was against them a few minutes ago.

Mr. O'Malley

My points must be getting through. It looks like it. One difference between us and the Coalition is that we did not panic as the Coalition did back in——

You are so dead you can scarcely move.

Mr. O'Malley

None of the Deputies opposite me at present were here in 1956.

You are afraid to test the position by holding local elections this year.

Mr. O'Malley

They are interrupting now before I finish my sentences. I am saying that we did not panic as the Coalition did when in 1956 they introduced three Budgets and——

You voted against them all. You never changed an iota of them when——

Mr. O'Malley

——and the levies which created mass unemployment, all in the one year.

(Interruptions.)

You retained the levies.

You voted against Deputy Sweetman's levies and you retained them when you came into power.

Mr. O'Malley

I have not got the slightest objection to any Deputy interrupting me or any objection to any Deputy making a speech here, but perhaps they would listen and learn.

The speech has been so sterile up to this that we have not learned anything.

It is not a good support for the Budget.

Mr. O'Malley

Listening to the speeches of Fine Gael and Labour Deputies, one would get the impression that they must think the public's memory is very short. They must think that we forget about their sojourn from 1954 to 1957. We remember the January of that year when they refused to bring in the Budget imposing the necessary taxes. They ran to the country and we had a general election. I should also like to remind the Opposition speakers that when they talk about our balance of payments, they only have to look back to 1951 when the balance of payments was £62 million. I suppose one could equate that, as one newspaper article did equate it, to about £90 million today.

Would the Minister do the same equation with the social services?

Mr. O'Malley

I will give the Deputy the opportunity to carry out that exercise and I will sit and listen to him. Talking about financial matters, the Opposition, for reasons best known to themselves, continue to attack our foreign borrowing policy. It is as well to realise that if we are to expand our capital programme for productive purposes, it will be necessary annually to raise a foreign loan to supplement a loan from our own people. There is nothing unusual about this. Far wealthier countries than we are have done so for years with satisfactory results. Up to recently the savings and investments of our people were sufficient to meet our requirements, but now our capital requirements cannot be met from domestic sources alone.

Savings dropped to £4½ million last year.

Deputy O'Connell might allow the Minister to proceed.

Mr. O'Malley

It is surprising to hear the criticism of Fine Gael and Labour about foreign borrowing when we remember that back in the halycon days of the first Coalition, they borrowed 128 million dollars from the United States.

What was the percentage?

Mr. O'Malley

It is interesting to note that we are still paying back the principal and interest on that, and a very substantial amount it is. The difference between their one foray into the field of foreign borrowing and ours is that they did not use this 128 million dollars for productive purposes. They spent it on such items as Canadian wheat and American motor cars. Indeed, it was the boast of Deputy Dillon that his great trouble was to spend the money. In one afternoon, a very pleasant afternoon, he spent £10 million. That was at the same time— I do not like referring to this, but it shows the money was there—that they scrapped the transatlantic air service. St. Patrick's Day 1948 will always be remembered as the day on which the consortium of Labour and Fine Gael put off for ten years the transatlantic air service now giving such good employment in this country. We have Deputy Dillon talking now about anarchy and national bankruptcy.

It would be sheer cowardice to evade the issue in most people's minds today — strikes and the bad industrial relations position which exist in Ireland. As already announced, the Minister for Industry and Commerce proposes to introduce legislation which we hope will be a basis upon which industrial relations will be vastly improved. I think everyone in this House is agreed that such a measure is highly desirable, but I think everyone in this House also appreciates the fact that legislation alone cannot cure these ills from which we suffer. Unless we have the co-operation and goodwill of all Parties, legislation will not succeed. We should remember certain basic truths. Strikes do not occur for nothing. There are reasons. In case I might be misunderstood, I should have said certain strikes do not occur out of the blue. Unfortunately, we have had these wildcat, irresponsible strikes, which is a very sad and unfortunate aspect of our industrial relations.

While these problems are complex, I believe the proposals to be introduced by the Minister for Industry and Commerce will create a climate which, with everyone's co-operation here and in the country, will solve many of the serious and contentious problems of employer-employee relations. It is the Government's duty—the Opposition might not think so—to govern, and this we will continue to do in the best interests of the nation as a whole and as we see it.

It is very necessary that measures be taken to strengthen the powers of the trade unions so they can run their affairs in a disciplined manner. This is long overdue. As has been repeated so often that it has become a cliché, the entire future of the country depends on an end to unnecessary strikes—and I underline the word "unnecessary"— and the settlement of disputes in a speedy, just and equitable manner.

You will see to it the employers are also disciplined?

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy can tell me nothing about employers and some of the gentlemen I am conversant with in this country and down my own part of the country. They squelched under their heel their employees in the past. They would do so on the slightest provocation in the future, were they not of the opinion (a) they would lose business, (b) they would incur public odium and (c) not get away with it.

Why lecture the trade unionists while this is happening?

Mr. O'Malley

I am facing an issue that many people seem to have avoided. I think this is the place to talk. What I say may be wrong and I may be proven wrong, but I am giving my opinion as I see it. There never has been anywhere a great power which, by being abused, did not end in disaster. Kings and countries, civil and religious movements, once supreme power was abused, encompassed their own destruction, and for a decade, a generation, perhaps even a century, they survived, but the ultimate fate overtook them all.

Today we live in an era of mass communication, an era in which the spotlight of public interest plays more fiercely on individuals, more fiercely on organisations, more fiercely on policies. This is an era in which public opinion is more educated, more critical, more alive to the issues of the day, an era in which the concept of social justice is becoming more appreciated. We have a long way to go but it is becoming more appreciated. I do not believe that public opinion would allow any group, politicians, trade unions, farmers, employers, to violate the principles of social justice. Sooner or later there would be a revolt and this would mete out its punishment in a suitable way. This is the lesson of all history.

This is where we reach the kernel of the affair. Every one of us here, every side of the House, has a duty to attempt to shape the society in which we live. We may not be successful but we have a responsibility, to the best of our ability, to attempt, here in Parliament, to shape the society in which we live. Some people say we are the music-makers and we are the dreamers of dreams; that may be, but we are also, for good or evil, the arbiters. If we fail in our duty public opinion will deal with us, and if we succeed we shall have nothing to fear. This is a fundamental concept which, however fundamental, we are all agreed can be restated again and again in these days of fast-growing political maturity, thank goodness, in this country.

We are the arbiters and power has been vested in us. Because we are a democratic institution, we are free at any time to abdicate from the responsibility of this power and we are free to surrender it to anyone we like, to people outside this House. We are, in effect, free to destroy ourselves and the institution of Parliament. Does any man here in the Dáil wish to see such a day come to pass? Should such a man sit in this House—and I do not believe there is one—he is one who would say he would tolerate the shadow for the substance. He would be the one who would say: "I will be the puppet who will dance by strings pulled by someone else," strings jerked by people not here and without any responsibility to the people.

We can come here week after week, year after year, and we can exhort and advise, but there must come a time when the exhortations have to stop and the issues must be joined, and if they have not come by now they are not far away. To fail to face up to realities here in Parliament, to fail to join the issues, is merely to postpone the day of destruction, for as surely as we seek refuge in platitudes as surely will we encompass our destruction; as surely will we be our own executioners. We are a free society and this Government have always proclaimed their belief in this concept. However, no society should be free to allow any one individual, any one section, no matter how strong, ever to destroy the rest of society, to oppress for its own interest remaining segments. Unfortunately—and I feel very strongly about this—we have in Ireland at the present time unscrupulous employers who have been handing out a starvation wage because they are getting away with it. We hear of increases, and many thousands have benefited from increases, but I know people, and we all know people who, when increases were given, did not get anything because the employers of such people knew they would get away with it. These are what I would call the forgotten ones and I hope we shall be able to do something about these people. We in the Fianna Fáil Party, the Government of this country, get our support, in the main, from what one could call the smaller man and the trade unionist.

And big industrialists.

Mr. O'Malley

There may be some of them as well.

The people with the money.

Mr. O'Malley

Deputy Belton would be well qualified to talk about the people with the money, but I am saying that, in the main, we get our support from the smaller man and from the trade unionist. Every piece of legislation in this country advancing the status of the worker was introduced here by a Fianna Fáil Government. If anyone denies this I will sit down. Every piece of social legislation has emanated from Fianna Fáil, the widows' and orphans' pensions, the blind pensions, the children's allowances, unemployment benefit, unemployment assistance, wet time insurance, holidays with pay.

Copied from England.

Mr. O'Malley

All these things have come from a Fianna Fáil Government and it will always be our ambition, year in and year out——

The trade unions got these things.

Mr. O'Malley

—— to continue, particularly with a Minister for Social Welfare of the calibre and compassion of the present Minister, Deputy Boland, to ensure that the less well-off groups in our community, who are our primary consideration, are not forgotten, and that will never happen while a Fianna Fáil Government continues to administer the affairs of this country. It is our belief that the social welfare benefits in Ireland today are still insufficient and grossly insufficient.

Diabolical.

Mr. O'Malley

We know that many of our people are anxious to see increased productivity. Deputy Donegan called it a cliché. I suppose we are sick and tired hearing of it but we have to face the fact that it is this increased productivity and output which will enable us to improve the position of this unfortunate and, to a great extent, neglected section of our people. A case was brought to my notice recently, within the last fortnight indeed, of a lady who had given 50 years continuous service to a semi-State—if one may call it that—body and all she got on retirement was £40 and no pension. Deputy Tully smiles. I know his smile is not derisory——

Auxiliary postmen all over the country are treated in the same way by the State.

Mr. O'Malley

That may be.

Why does the Minister not do something about it?

(Interruptions.)

Order. The Minister might be allowed to speak.

Mr. O'Malley

While we have that kind of mentality, we shall never arrive at a proper social conscience. We shall never have a proper appreciation of our social problems. What does it matter a damn who initiates what?

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Mr. O'Malley

This is the place in which to get unanimity. This is the place in which discussions can take place, the place from which proposals should emanate, proposals to wipe out injustices. As a member of the Government, I admit that there are inequities and injustices. I abhor them. They have been with us now for some time. At the same time, I know that tremendous strides have been made down the years. There is, however, a long road ahead. Our problems cannot be solved overnight. It is true that since 1959 this country has made remarkable progress and remarkable strides economically.

Why does the Minister say 1959? Is there any significance in that?

Deputy Harte should cease interrupting.

I am asking the Minister a question.

It is not in order.

It is very relevant.

Mr. O'Malley

If only Deputy Harte would read the little books we get published at such great cost——

I would not have enough hours in the day in which to do that.

Mr. O'Malley

The Deputy asked a question I am endeavouring to answer it. This Government was elected in 1959. In that year the graph was downward. It began to move upwards again in 1959 and in every year after 1959.

That was a certain election in that year.

Mr. O'Malley

That graph was constant between 1959 and 1964. I am answering the Deputy's question. In the years from 1959 to 1964, the country made remarkable strides economically, socially and politically. The standard of living of our people rose. Our social benefits increased annually. The Free Trade Agreement with Britain is a major step forward. Now we have before us entry into Europe. That lies ahead.

138,000 fewer in employment.

Mr. O'Malley

All these achievements——

Achievements?

Mr. O'Malley

——have been gained under the leadership of Deputy Seán Lemass. If the Opposition and the other recalcitrant elements in the country will stop their wailing, we will be ready to join the Common Market, with all its benefits, but also, mark you, with all its responsibilities.

The Minister for Health has spoken at some length, but he has not said very much about the Budget. I do not intend to say very much about the Budget either because I think it really speaks for itself. As we all know only too well, it speaks in no uncertain terms. As well as that, representatives of various interests in the State have already commented on the Budget and it is fair to say, I think, that there has not been as much as one favourable comment. It just is not possible to make favourable comment on this Budget.

The country, through the mismanagement of the Government, is in an unholy mess and there is just no easy way out of the difficulties confronting us. Both the capital and the current Budgets have got out of control and the taxpayers are now being compelled to foot the bill. Not only are they being asked to provide the money necessary to run the country during 1966-67 but they are being required also to supply sufficient money to meet a deficit of £8 million in the year 1965-66. That deficit has arisen in the main because of lack of buoyancy in revenue due to a slowing down generally of economic activity. It has arisen also through failure to secure anticipated savings and through the increased cost of servicing debt occasioned by additional borrowing. All these things must be met side by side with the enormous Budget presented for the year 1966-67.

It was obvious from the attitude of the Minister for Finance that he appreciated the severity and harshness of the Budget he was introducing. The Taoiseach, however displayed a very different attitude. He was brazen enough to tell the House that this was a good Budget and that the people were, in fact, extremely lucky that they were not being called upon to shoulder a very much heavier burden of taxation. He added that it might be necessary to introduce another Budget in six months' time and, if the circumstances then prevailing necessitated such a step, he would have no hesitation in taking it. One is tempted to ask, in these circumstances, why have a Budget at all if it is going to be, as it has been in the past year, completely ignored and if the Taoiseach prefers to continue his reckless Rake's Progress, spending so long as the money is there and, when it is not there, getting it in by fresh taxation?

The Taoiseach went so far as to say that annual Budgets might show themselves to be outmoded and unfitted to present day circumstances. The comment of the Minister for Health was that may be we will not be taxed. It is a curious thing but, before the election this time last year, we heard about nothing but prosperity. Any little improvement in the economy was described as a surge forward. Very soon after that election the attitude changed. Then the other side of the picture was shown to prepare the people for what was coming. The Taoiseach made a speech at a chamber of commerce dinner more or less introducing the sort of them that maybe we went too fast. I came across an editorial in a journal recently which I think made adequate comment on his speech on that occasion. The journal is the November, 1965, issue of Build. It is no harm to quote the leader in that journal on that particular occasion because it would be just as relevant today, in answer to the excuse offered for the present crisis by the Minister for Health, as it was when it was written in commenting on the Taoiseach's speech to the Dublin Chamber of Commerce. It is headed “Let Lemass Lead On”. We all know that that was the slogan during the election. The people were told by Fianna Fáil that the only thing that could go wrong was a change of Government; otherwise, we were heading for a wonderful future. Under that heading of “Let Lemass Lead On” the leader in Build reads:

On another page we publish excerpts from An Taoiseach Mr. Seán Lemass's speech to the Dublin Chamber of Commerce.

We could not disagree more with his contention that "present problems" are a "reflection of efforts to push the country's rate of progress faster and to improve living standards". In our opinion, and we have said so on many occasions, the scale of urban prosperity which we had been enjoying was a reflection of buoyant conditions in Western Europe and was not due to the existence of the First and Second Programmes for Economic Expansion.

Mark you, that was said today by Deputy Seán Dunne. Incidentally, during the election campaign, and prior to it, we heard much about the First and Second Programmes for Economic Expansion. Now, we hear very little about them because every forecast in the Second Programme has gone wrong. However, the editorial goes on to say:

This prosperity was not diffused among the people who most of all deserved to benefit from it. The needy grew more impoverished as a result of rising costs; the people in rural Ireland grew fewer and poorer; while the rich became richer. Due to the economic and political system which it has inherited the government was not in full control of the situation, and now that catastrophe has occurred has left itself with no room for manoeuvre. The slightest jolt and our inherently delicate economy would be upset. The British trade levy of 15 per cent and the imposition of the Turnover Tax and what derived from it did just that. Our economy is cracked badly, and if the Taoiseach is man enough he will admit to it.

What we require now is a move towards an intelligent and sensible redistribution of our external trade combined with a bold and lively search for new markets; a revolutionary overhaul of both local and central taxation geared to suit the country's needs, and the initiation of economic planning based upon the productive capacity of the entire nation.

It is not necessary to continue to quote the editorial in question but it continues for some time and the remainder of it is just as critical as that part of it which I have read out.

I said at the outset that the various interests in the country had already spoken on the Budget. I think it is no harm to discuss at least the two most important sections, industry and agriculture or agriculture and industry, whichever way we like to take them. On the day after the Budget, that is, on 10th March, 1966, the opinion of the President of the ICMSA is reported in the Irish Times on what the Budget has done for the farming community and the position of agriculture generally. The relevant extract reads:

The President of the ICMSA, Mr. John Freely, said that the creamery milk suppliers had been treated with the utmost contempt in the Budget. It was the last straw breaking the camel's back. Native Government today must accept full responsibility for having written off the small and medium sized creamery milk producer who is producing a full cream milk at 2¾d. a pint and is working a seven day, 70 hour week to do so.

The days of slavery, he said, were not yet over in Ireland and a native government was perpetrating a grave injustice to the small farming community. The ideals of the men of Easter Week who made the supreme sacrifice so that justice would be meted out to all sections of the community were lost to our rulers today. The Minister for Agriculture was only "play-acting" and is not fulfilling his responsibility as Minister for Agriculture. A meeting of the administrative council of the association would be held today in Limerick to consider how the demand to increase the price of milk can now be met.

Now, that is the opinion of the leaders in agriculture and, again in The Farmers' Journal, the comment on the Budget was:

The Budget Speech is noteworthy for the fact that it carries not even one promise of a farm price increase.

I think that those two quotations indicate quite clearly that the farming community are dissatisfied with the Budget; that they fail to see anything in it that will help them to increase production or to increase their own incomes, and as well, of course, to increase exports. There is no incentive in the Budget. A sum of £100,000 is provided for the farmers of the west of Ireland and, in the main, that will go towards paying the additional advisory officers who have been set up there.

He did not say a word about that.

Do not fight about it.

I am giving my version of it. My feeling is that you can do nothing for the farmers of the west of Ireland on £100,000 and that no serious effort has been made by the Government to save the West, so to speak.

We hear a lot of reports and a lot of promises but nothing serious has been done. We all know that in the west of Ireland, an intensive line that should be followed is pig production. At present, the number of pigs produced there is half what it was in 1930. It is one of our important exports and all the indications are that there will be a serious drop in pig output. The number of sows in pig this year has dropped by 40,000.

There is little or nothing that I can see in this Budget to keep the people in the west of Ireland or to keep the people producing in agriculture. More promises have been made about the effects of the recent Trade Agreement on the farming community and the prospects it holds out for them. One of the publications we have got recently, the Second Programme for Economic Expansion, expects no improvement in prices but the Minister for Agriculture has a very different version. Incidentally, in relation to these reports we are receiving and which we are so strongly recommended to read and to give attention to, I think most of them are proving, in time, to be erroneous. I do not think that is the fault of the people who wrote them and who went to so much trouble in research and investigation of the various possibilities. The Government are changing their mind every day in the week so that nothing can stand and all the assumptions on which these reports are based go by the board and, if they do not work out according to plan, they cannot then be blamed.

I notice that the Second Programme for Economic Expansion Progress Report opens with a paragraph indicating the position of agriculture during the past year. It states:

The programme target is to increase gross agricultural output, in terms of 1960 prices, from £207.4 million in 1963 to £270.2 million in 1970; output in 1960 was £193.1 million. The increase in 1964 (3.5 per cent) was somewhat below the target, and preliminary figures for 1965 indicate that the increase in output for that year was only one per cent to two per cent.

So that there was a deplorable drop last year.

Accordingly, the projection made in the 1964 Review, that, if weather conditions were reasonably good, the volume of output should increase by about 3 per cent, was not fulfilled.

It is true to say that weather conditions had something to do with agricultural output last year but one thing we should not fail to remember is that the Government are relying almost entirely on livestock production. There was never a better grass year than last year, due to the almost continuous rain, but, in spite of that fact, exports of cattle dropped to a considerable extent. Statistics indicate that the cattle are still there and we can expect a big improvement in the present year. But if last year was bad for one side of the industry, it was good for another. It was bad for the tillage side of the industry but the Government's interest in tillage seems to have been waning quite considerably in recent years—I think, perhaps, quite incorrectly because we now find an enormous amount of money has to be paid for the importation of wheat and other feeding stuffs. This, indeed, is not helping the balance of payments.

Having made those few remarks about agriculture and agricultural economy generally, I shall pass on to industry, but it is quite right to say there is no incentive in the present Budget for increased production in agriculture. In fact, the Budget as a whole, lacks incentive in any department. The Minister for Health described this as a sterile debate. We could rightly describe the Budget as a sterile Budget.

On the day following the Budget, we had a comment from the President of the Federation of Irish Industries, Mr. E. S. Gibson, who said:

The Budget had to meet an anticipated deficit of over £12 million. This followed a year in which rapidly rising Government expenditure absorbed so much of the available credit that credit restrictions had to be imposed on private industry. The increased taxation in this Budget will add to industries costs as well as further reducing the finance available for industrial expansion. In a pre-Budget submission the Federation had proposed a number of tax adjustments which would have been important incentives to industrial growth at modest cost to the Exchequer. It was particularly disappointing that none of these measures had been adopted in view of the critical role which industrial expansion had to play in achieving the objectives of the Second Programme for Economic Expansion.

Mr. Gibson added:

It was the Federation's view that, in the long run, Government expenditure would have to flow from an expanding economy rather than from persistent increases in taxation rates.

That last sentence is a very important one—that Government expenditure would have to flow from an expanding economy rather than from persistent increases in taxation. There is no indication that we have anything in this Budget which will give us that expansion in the economy, which will have the effect of reducing taxation. One of the greatest failures of the Government, during recent years particularly, has been their failure to establish more industries in this country because, if we are to achieve the increase in the standard of living we hope to achieve, we must do so through the expansion of industry. The whole organisation here for the establishment and encouragement of industry and the enlargement of existing industry has shown itself to be a failure.

People have spoken here and the Government have attributed to us a lot of criticism about the industries which have failed. I have a personal view on this, that is, if we go about this courageously, we are bound to have failures. I do not blame the Government for certain failures but we are too anxious to pursue what appears to be a big industry. We accept very easily what we are told by the proposers of such an industrial project, whereas, if we have a smaller industry coming in which might be very worthwhile, we go through it with a fine comb and very often turn it down. I do not think we look sufficiently for the type of small specialised industry which is likely to survive. We do not look sufficiently either for industries based on the raw materials in the country. All over the whole effort to establish industry here there is excessive caution, no real drive; and there are three different bodies dealing with the establishment of industries. What is everybody's job is nobody's job. There are very few people who have experience in the industrial field associated with any of these bodies.

It is quite obvious that there has been a drastic drop in employment. If we are to employ our people, we will have to employ them in industry because they are leaving the land much faster than was anticipated. It is said they are leaving the land everywhere, but if we were able to provide alternative employment for them in industry, we would have nothing to lament in their leaving the land. The employment aspect is really very serious. The Second Programme for Economic Expansion envisaged 78,000 new jobs between 1963 and 1970. We are falling short of that target now by no less than 44,000. Last year we reduced the number in employment by no less than 7,000. That is a very serious situation. It is more serious still when we know it is coupled with a growing emigration problem.

The whole question of industrial relations and the importance of success in industry has been raised and questioned here. Deputy Seán Dunne says everybody talks about strikes. Somebody else said we should not be afraid to talk about strikes. I think we should not be afraid to talk about strikes because, if we are, we will never reach a settlement of the existing disturbances. There is no doubt that the industrial unrest in the country is obvious to any industrialist coming in here to establish an industry.

I do not think that sufficient effort has been made to overcome the employer-labour difficulties that exist. In my constituency a large number of people are employed in the paper industry. Apparently no serious view is being taken of this dispute because, as yet, no arrangements have been made to get the parties concerned together so that the difficulties could be resolved. All over the country we have either strikes or threatened strikes. We know that that history during the past year has been particularly bad. In my view, the working men and women have not suddenly decided to go mad, and there is very good reason for this unrest. Some perhaps may be unjustified and unjustifiable, because there are people who are wrong in every section of the community. Management can often be wrong, and I am sure are wrong in many instances. We have this serious situation, and the Government have a duty to get the two sides together, employers and trade unions, and stay with them until an equitable solution is arrived at, so that we will have a period of stability, and a hope of increased output from industry, and that our industries will be competitive in the export market.

This country lives by its exports, and unless we can get stability, we will have more and more unemployment every day. I sometimes think— and this is not meant to be a criticism —that perhaps the trade unions are not sufficiently concerned about the number of people who are unemployed and can get no jobs. In my view, that number is approximately 100,000. That is a very serious situation. It is a situation which calls for a certain amount of sacrifice from many people. I know that this Budget calls for enough sacrifice, but I feel there is not sufficient effort to get these people into employment, and not sufficient effort to establish new industries and expand existing industries. That is the area in which I think we have the greatest hope for the future.

I should like to say a word about at least some of the taxes in the Budget. There is an increase in the rate of income tax of 8d. This has been referred to by a number of Deputies as a wage and salary cut. There is no doubt that it cannot be interpreted in any other way. The unfortunate people who are liable for PAYE have to meet this increase, and naturally they are hard-pressed at the moment. If a man has £12 or £14 a week and is rearing a family—I do not know how he does it—I do not blame him for looking for another £1 a week, but I am more concerned about the unfortunate man who cannot get employment at all.

We have an increase in road tax and in petrol. That hits every section of the community and means an increase in the cost of distribution. It must have an adverse effect on industry. I saw a reference in some paper recently to the fact that the road tax in this country is almost the highest in Europe, and also that our petrol is now costing something in the region of 7½d more than it costs in Northern Ireland, just across the Border. In that type of situation we will find it very difficult indeed to complete.

When the Resolution increasing the price of a glass of spirits by 4d was going through the House, I said it was the wrong time to introduce this increase, because there were indications that a real effort was about to be made to increase exports of whiskey. For a long time the country was critical of the fact that the brewers did not make sufficient effort in that regard. In fact, that did not apply to all the brewers. It is obvious now that there is to be a real effort to increase exports, and now that they are starting to do that, this extra taxation has been imposed upon them.

There is an increase of 2d on the pint of beer. That will hit the ordinary working man who occasionally drinks and, worse still, it will hit employment. This industry employs many of our people. It may be said that it is unfortunate that so many people have to find employment in that type of industry. We cannot say, on the one hand, that we should have more drinking and, on the other, that perhaps we should have less drinking. If we had full employment, we could easily start to work on some of these things.

I am not a smoker, and one is inclined to be influenced by the fact that one is not a smoker when considering the tax on tobacco. If the extra 2d on the packet of cigarettes were for a different reason, I might be in favour of it. If it were being put on to improve the health of the people, one could say something for it.

Another tax, which is perhaps regarded as a fairly small one, is the tax on firearms. It may be regarded as small, but it is calculated it will bring in £40,000. When the Taoiseach was speaking, I raised the question of this additional £40,000 from the firearms tax and he said: "Are we not giving them £60,000?" He did not refer to the fact that the income from the tax on firearms, for gun licences or permits, or whatever they are called, must be £150,000. He is graciously giving back £60,000. I cannot see that there is any justification for this.

Heretofore a game licence cost £2 5s. and it now costs £3 5s. A very large percentage of the people I know who have game licences would not shoot £3 5s. worth of game in three years. They take their guns when they go for a ramble at weekends. The season is quite short, but they are fined to the tune of an additional £40,000 in this Budget. I know that this tax was collected for many years and nothing was given back, and nothing was done to preserve game. The average man who has a game licence not only pays for it, but also pays a few pounds to a local association which is trying to preserve game. This is a tourist attractions and should be regarded as such.

Why should people who enjoy that type of harmless outdoor recreation be fined because they want to enjoy that type of recreation? I wonder what would be the attitude if the other sports we all know so well, which so many thousands of people attend, were taxed in the same way? What would be the attitude of the people then? The Government just would not attempt to tax other sports in the same way as they have taxed this one. I have spoken about this because I know just what it means and I know fairly serious efforts are being made by people in the country generally to revive this sport and to conserve game but the Government are trying to kill it.

In the Sunday Independent of 13th March, 1996, there is a heading “Union Chief Hits Building Industry”. “The building industry was one of the most disorganised and unplanned in the State,” said Mr. John Conroy, General President, Irish Transport and General Workers Union, at a Liberty study Group seminar at the La Touche Hotel, Greystones. I think it is a terrible thing that one of the leaders in the trade union movement should be in a position fairly to say that the building industry is deplorably disorganised. It is one of the industries in this country employing the greatest possible number of people. It is quite fair, in my view, to say that it is disorganised and that there are these frequent slumps in the industry. There are periods when there are insufficient skilled workmen and then suddenly these slumps come, such as we have at the present time, and workers are down to half work.

The Government can go on pretending there is no slump in the building industry but that is just quite ridiculous, as we all know. I said here recently that not a loan has been sanctioned in Dublin County Council since last December. There has not been a loan sanctioned because there is not a pound in the county council and we cannot get a pound from the Local Loans Fund to sanction any of those loans. Consequently, people have not got money to buy houses and when the money is not there to buy them, they will not be built. Many thousands of building workers have been let go because the building societies are not providing the money, the insurance companies are not providing money and the State is not providing money.

It is all right for the Minister for Local Government to say that we are providing more in the coming year than was provided in the past year but we know from experience that that money may not be spent. I have a very strong suspicion that it will not be spent in the coming year. It is one thing to provide it and another thing to spend it. You cannot make arrangements to spend money on building overnight. When this slump is allowed to continue for a few months, many skilled craftsmen leave. There is no activity in the acquisition of sites. It takes quite a considerable time to reactivate the building industry, as we all know only too well.

This whole go-slow attitude is quite obvious, even in the local authorities. It is quite obvious because of the fact there is no money and that the prompt is to go easy because we just have not got it. I know the Minister for Local Government has promised, inside the next week or so, to let the local authorities know where they stand. It is extremely important that they should be informed where they stand. I know that at present in our local authority alone, we have over 600 applicants for loans and they do not know when they will get them or whether they will ever get them. They do not know whether to look elsewhere for the facilities. Many people with deposits on houses stand a chance of losing those deposits.

It is very difficult to know what has suddenly gone wrong in the country. We had all this talk about prosperity this time last year. We were a land flowing with milk and honey and nothing could go wrong, but everything has gone wrong now and everybody is wondering what will happen next. How far can it go? The Government are to a large extent, responsible for what has happened. They created this sense of security and this wonderful state of prosperity in the minds of the people. Naturally the people started to look for more perhaps than was there. There was a general sort of "Take-it-easy; we do not have to worry; we have a strong Government and the Government tell us everything in the garden is rosy. Why should we upset ourselves?"

I think it was the Minister for Justice here the other day who spoke at some length on the necessity for harder work. It is a great pity that that advice was not given before it was too late. I am afraid it is very late now. There is a great need for harder work and it is not shorter hours the people want but longer hours, more pay and more output. We are deluding ourselves if we think we can survive without increased output and increased exports, and increasing them competitively. The only way any country ever builds itself up is by hard work and not by shorter hours and more pay for doing less. As I say, the Government, and the Government only, must accept responsibility for getting the people into that state of mind.

I have covered most of what I wanted to say except that it is an extremely unfortunate thing that we have more and more taxation to be paid by fewer and fewer people in employment. It is deplorable, as was revealed today, that we have some 160,000 fewer people in employment today than 15 years ago. All sorts of costs are increasing and rates are rocketing. I just do not know where relief is coming from. Our present difficulties are largely due to the undoubted mismanagement of the Government who must bear full responsibility for it. They gave this foolish impression of prosperity and the people got this sort of false confidence in them. They got support from the people by promising everything.

They gave us White Papers and the people got the impression they were going to get everything when in fact there was no intention of doing anything about any of them for years ahead. We had a White Paper on Health, a White Paper on Housing and a White Paper, if you could call it one—this one is a red paper—on Education, and then another paper on itinerants. The Minister for Health spoke about itinerants and suddenly stopped. He introduced the subject as one of the ways in which he could criticise the Opposition, but he caught himself on halfway through. He realised we had a White Paper on that, too, that it is five years old and that nothing has been done about it since it was issued.

Deputy Seán Dunne described this Budget as diabolical. I say it is diabolical and lacking in imagination on the part of the Civil Service and the Minister for Finance. The Minister for Health cribbed because, he said, there were no constructive ideas from the Opposition. What about the idea of Deputy P. J. Burke who asked every person to subscribe 6d per week to keep the country going? How is that for a business proposition? The Government have already taken the shillings and the pounds from both workers and businessmen. Business people have taken reductions in profits and the effect of this Budget is that the workers must accept reduced pay packets. Therefore, there are no sixpences left for Deputy Burke.

The Minister for Finance and his Government colleagues are fond of telling business people, when costs go up, that they should use new techniques to keep prices down. Why do the Government not use similar techniques to bring about a reduction in public expenditure? Of course, Government expenditure is financed from borrowing and, of course, there is no surer way to inflation than to have the Government borrowing to pay their debts. If any businessman attempted to pay his debts by going to his bank to borrow the money, he would be in liquidation overnight. The Government must be prepared to cut down, to do the same amount of work for less money. If they are unable to do this, how can they expect the workers of the country to do it? You had workers applying for a job and a man who is 70 years of age, who has two pensions, gets the job in a post office. How can that man who is 70 years of age, get this job if he is not——

It is a matter for the Estimate.

——a member of a Fianna Fáil cumann? If people are asked to work, they must see a possibility of getting to the top of their job and they will not have confidence if they can see this political thing happening. As I have said, the Government must not continue to finance projects from borrowing and also borrow to pay interest on money already borrowed. The Government often advise people to do certain things. I wish they would practise what they preach. If they did, they would save £12 million a year and thus this extra taxation would not be needed. The Minister said the appointment to the Post Office in Drumcondra was a fair appointment. It would have been fair if it had been taken out of the Department and given to a board.

It does not arise.

The rates of interest on deposits in the Post Office should be increased. So also should the interest paid by commercial banks and finance houses. Not so long ago the Canadian Bank came in here and decided to give 5¾ per cent on deposits. If we could get the commercial banks and the Post Office to give similar interest rates, the money would not be going to finance houses who invest outside the State. There has been criticism of the Civil Service and there is one thing I should like to know. Did the Civil Service warn the Government at the time of the turnover tax? If they did not, they do not know their job. That was the stage when the danger warning should have been sounded. The Government collected £12 million from the turnover tax and, like a boy getting a fiver for his 21st birthday, they went out and blew it.

While the employers and the trade unions were negotiating the National Wage Agreement which resulted in a 12 per cent increase, the Taoiseach said here, and I was listening to him, that he expected an increase of seven per cent or eight per cent would be agreed. Would anybody selling a commodity tell the price they expected to get for it? They would always ask for more and a person buying a commodity would offer less than he expected to pay. However, the Taoiseach gave that figure here and if he had not, if he had kept his mouth shut, an agreement would have been reached for not more than eight per cent. Of course, even eight per cent would not have been sought if it were not for the turnover tax. The Taoiseach had to open his mouth because there were two by-elections pending, and if Fianna Fáil had lost them, they would have been out of office. The Taoiseach put Fianna Fáil before the good of the country. His ambition was to get Fianna Fáil back in office, regardless of what happened to Ireland.

The result is that we have inflation. The Minister for Health spoke about the Coalition. What about the Fianna Fáil coalition when they were kept in office by five little Independent dogs following them around? There is a ritual about the effort of Fianna Fáil in this respect. For the two years preceding an election, everything is good, there are tons of money and then there follow three hard years. This is so sure that any businessman in the city could make money by following it. The Government have spoken at length about the Second Programme. I remind the Government that every business enterprise has a programme but, as distinct from the Government, business enterprises have plans to back up their programmes. The Government have none and, as any businessman will tell you, a programme without a plan goes to the wall. Nobody in the Opposition has suggested cutting back on the Government's Second Programme as the Taoiseach implied in his speech. What we suggested was that a lot of the money was being thrown away, wasted. Here we can lose money or throw it away and it is easy to come back when the election is over and get the money from the people.

The Minister for Finance said—and he only reiterated something said already by his predecessor in 1956 and 1957—that he will have an inquiry into the Civil Service. In that connection, we have ambassadors all over the world and a Minister for External Affairs who spent 49 days in Ireland last year. What is he doing running around the world? Would it not be better if instead of ambassadors we had trade commissioners as the Russians have and the Japanese? They have a trade organisation. We could also have possibly industrial advisers to ascertain what industries could be brought to Ireland. This is what we want. As it is, if you go to the majority of Irish embassies you will get Scotch rather than Irish whiskey and if you inquire about the meat market in any of their towns they will not know where it is nor will they know the position about agriculture. They are just there to receive people. We took over this system from the British in 1922 and we still have it.

The Minister defended the £800 a year increase to higher civil servants and said they should get the same remuneration as in private enterprise employment. I agree with that but what he did not say is that they should also accept the risks that a man employed in private enterprise takes who is getting the same salary. If such a man does not reach the target that is set for him over four or five years, he is sacked and must go elsewhere, and if his industry fails he has to go elsewhere and start from the bottom all over again. In 80 per cent of cases in this country he has no superannuation scheme. The number of firms with superannuation schemes can be counted on the fingers of two hands. The remuneration, I agree, must be good to get good men but they must take the same risks as in private enterprise industries. How many civil servants will be dismissed unless they do something very wrong?

The money now being collected by the Government, in my opinion, is being put into industries that do not give a return. It is being taken from private enterprise which has to make a profit. If the private enterprise industry does not make profit it is put into liquidation. In other words, the Government are taking money from good business and putting it into bad business.

We asked the Minister for Finance who is getting the extra profit on the tipped cigarettes. He evaded the question on the day of the vote but I am still asking it. The retailers, who have no union to back them, have very little profit, about 8 per cent or 7½ per cent now. If anybody is to get the extra profit on tipped cigarettes as compared with ordinary cigarettes it should be the retailers. The Minister said Irish-produced wine meant very little to the Budget but to bring it in line for Free Trade Area purposes he would have to tax it as we will shortly be in the Free Trade Area. Why not go the full distance? Why not bring in a purchase tax and abolish the turnover tax? Why not go into the Free Trade Area fully and have our taxation and our social services all in line? Why pick out one item and nothing else?

We are told by the Tourist Board that we get in £70 million from tourism. They do not break down that figure and say how much of it comes from returning Irish emigrants, whether it is £69 million or £68 million, but one thing we can be sure of is that £25 million is taken out each year by Irish people going abroad. Why is that trend not stopped or cut down and these people made to spend their money at home?

I had hoped something would be done about the position in regard to married women's estates which resulted from the previous Finance Bill. Many people were worried about the aggregation of the two estates last year but very few realised its eventual effects. When the estates were separate it practically guaranted a family businessman, big or small, a certain amount to pay off death duties, and, therefore, the family or whoever succeeded was not forced into liquidation. But what will happen now is that thousands of them will be put into liquidation. The new employer will get a certain amount of money and go off but what will happen the people in the middle 50s who worked for these employers? The employer who takes over has, perhaps, never met these people before and does not need any of them and does not take them on. Will they not be thrown on to the labour pool where there is little chance of their being employed again?

I have seen much evidence recently of the stop-go policy of Fianna Fáil. I do not know if they know themselves when it is going to stop or go. When money is available—I say this in relation to Dublin in particular but it applies generally—property is bought on 10 or 11 years purchase. Then a credit squeeze comes, as it has come now, the purchasers are stuck for money and they are forced to sell at seven years purchase. These properties are being bought up by big finance groups from the United Kingdom.

The Minister for Justice was shouting about the 97 per cent success in industry. I presume he is including all the money given to businessmen to increase their business, to help in the acquisition of machinery and in grants and in every other form. I wonder if he took in the hotels and the Verolme Dockyard. We would be better off if we closed Verolme Dockyard and paid the men for the rest of their lives. In that way we would at least know what it would cost, something we cannot know now. As far as I know, they got a grant to take that machinery out of Holland. The Potez concern is still there on the Naas Road. The money for both concerns has come from taxation.

The one non-subsidised industry that shows a profit is distilling. Farming is subsidised and woollens are subsidised in that they get grants for machinery replacement but the distilleries, which are non-subsidised, had a profit of £4.7 million. The Government attitude is that as soon as an industry gets to a certain level or over that level it is time to tax it again. That is how they have behaved. Surely a Government's attitude should be that if they want a very good export market, they must have a very good sale at home. The more sales you have at home, the less each item costs and the greater chance there is of exporting competitively. Instead of killing an industry that is growing and making money without subsidy, the Government should have given it a chance to grow. The Minister's statements on this matter have been fantastic.

There are three distilleries combining, mainly for the purposes of exports, so as to reduce costs and to be competitive. I would estimate that the value of the distilleries in Ireland is £10 million. The value of the main competitor in Scotland could be estimated at £15 million, with reserves. The distilleries in this country were trying to rationalise the industry but the Government imposed a tax on their produce and their sales will go down.

The Minister for Justice, when addressing the Cork Licensed Vintners' kept mentioning the year 1955. I should like to remind him that in 1955 the licensed trade in this country was on its way out and the Fianna Fáil Government themselves introduced decontrol. Of every £1 that is taken in a licensed premises today, 11/6 goes to the Government.

Another thing that the Minister never mentioned in all his speeches is the rates paid by licensed premises. There is a tremendous portion of the rates going to the Department of Health. In some cases the rates on a public house are between £1,000 and £1,500. How much of this, in addition to the tax, goes to Government Departments?

There is a fallacy that I should like to explode for the benefit of the Minister and civil servants. They reckon that there can be no profit on any tax that is imposed. Take the turnover tax. Is not 2½ per cent on that a tax upon a tax? If a licensed vintner buys a bottle of whiskey and drops it on the floor and it is broken, he has to pay the cost of that, including the tax. A businessman bases his profit on the cost of an article at the door of his premises, the price at which he sells it and the wages he has to pay. In all the speeches made by the Minister he never once mentioned the increase in wages that hit the licensed trade. The Fair Trade Commission demanded and received 80 accounts. They selected the accounts and checked the accounts. In their report they said that the average profit before tax was six per cent to 13 per cent and where it was 13 per cent it was usual to find that the owner was working in the premises and took no remuneration. The Government borrow money at 10½ per cent. If the £ were devalued, they would have to repay double the money. It is a tremendous risk.

Cars have been hit twice, on petrol and in tax. Nowadays a car may be a man's means of transport to his work and is not necessarily used to any great extent on luxury travel. The cost of the petrol increase on distribution is fantastic. There are 50 to 60 per cent of our people, excluding workers in agriculture, involved in the distributive trade. The costs are going up. The Government are taking the money out.

The population of the Six Counties is 1¾ million. The population of the 26 Counties is 2¾ million. Social services in the Six Counties are better than they are here. A man and wife on reaching the age of 70 get £400, without a means test. What have we in comparison? The only thing that is higher in the Six Counties is income tax.

The Government have failed completely in regard to the building situation. They have used no imagination as to how to use money and to get money for building. I am speaking about Dublin. I believe the situation is not quite as bad in the country. The cost-of-living index includes such items as bread, butter, tea, sugar. Rent is not included or, if it is, is put down at corporation house level. About three years ago, insurance companies and finance houses withdrew from private house building in Dublin and put their money into the building of offices and luxury flats, usually at a higher percentage interest and a 20 to 30 per cent equity. In other words, they were gaining a capital profit.

The big trouble in Dublin is that serviced land is running out and becoming dearer and dearer. In one six months the cost of a site in Dublin jumped from £400 to £1,000. There is not sufficient money available for building. I am not asking the Government to put this money into building but can they not give incentives like the inter-Party Government gave on exports, to get money into building? The inter-Party Government gave a tax rebate on exports. The Government should do something similar in the case of building. They do not have to use the money for direct building but sites must be developed.

My suggestion in regard to building is that, immediately, the Government should stop all office building and, as far as possible, Government building. The labour pool would then be put on to private house building. The existing rate of wages would drop somewhat but instead of a man being employed for one year and having no employment the next year he would have continuous employment—a lower wage but guaranteed employment.

If finance groups and insurance companies had not office blocks to put their money into they would put their money into private house building. Where possible, I would suggest that insurance companies should finance rented blocks of flats and be given seven shillings in the £ rebate of income tax. I would do that in this way: where the economic rent would be £6, the flat would be rented at £4 and the insurance company or finance group or private individual would get this £4 free of tax—not surtax. Such a scheme would get quite a few people interested.

Another thing which I would do, and this may sound surprising, is to abolish the grant of £275. It is out of date and while is has served its purpose it is being abused in that houses up to £7,000 and £8,000 are getting the grant as well. I suggest that the English Labour Government's proposals should be followed here. They provide for a tax rebate on all interest paid whether the person's salary warrants it or not. For a person repaying £10 a week the interest is approximately £9 and the capital is £1. This represents 63/- rebate of tax, or 7/-in the £, which leaves £6 17s. Od., that is the net repayments on that house. A person with no allowance pays half the price of his house and he has to pay £5 a week but he gets no rebate for paying the £5 while the man with a huge house is paying £6 17s. Od. This system would be more equitable.

At the moment the well-off person is gaining because he is able to get a tax rebate because of his salary, while the other person is not. If both of these things were done together and if the Government used the money allocated for building, wherever they allocated it, to get lands—if they went three miles outside Coolock or outside Rathfarnham, they could buy the land at farmland prices and I would put a top figure of £500 on it—and I believe they should buy more land than they require, and service it. Then if the land is serviced the value would improve. This is not being done at present and it is the speculators who are buying the land.

I do not see why the Government do not do this. If they were to do this and also have plenty of sites available for private builders there would be competition. A person would sell a house in Coolock at a price which would certainly be dearer than that for a house at Malahide because it is nearer the city and there would be competition to keep prices down. In addition, the Government would have from 20 per cent to 25 per cent less money to loan. The price of houses would come down by practically £1,000 on a £4,000 house.

The Government's sole effort has been the Ballymun scheme. They have received no proper quantities for this and they do not know what it is going to cost finally. They reckon £9 million but it will probably be £9 million upwards because it is never downwards. I have been out there and it is the most disorganised scheme I have ever seen. If it were built by conventional builders it would be half finished now. I should like to point out that this scheme is not under the Dublin Corporation's bye-laws. It is under the National Housing Agency. They are allowed to put in 1½ inch doors but an Irish builder has to put in 2 inch doors. This is a consortium of builders with one Irish builder and the rest English. They can put in ½ inch partitions where you must have a 4½ inch block. This is the Government's one way of saving the housing situation in Dublin. They have no imagination and no other ideas. As far as I can see, there is one law for English builders brought in by the Government and another law for Irish builders who are watched very carefully.

If you have good houses you will save a tremendous amount of money in the Department of Health because if you take any particular area in Dublin where there are tenements, then if one child gets diphteria, six more of them will get it and will end up in hospital and eventually the whole block will get it. The conditions under which they live are terrible. If you had good houses the Estimate brought in by the Minister for Health, Deputy O'Malley, would more quickly be met. In Dublin if you bring people from tenements to another area they get used to that area and after a number of years they are willing to devote some of their money towards educating their families, whether it is in a technical school or in a secondary school. As long as you keep the people in bad housing conditions and do not attempt to provide the money for good houses you will not get anywhere with this problem. To try to continue to do it on Government money is completely non-sensical and you will never solve the housing problem. You must get people in, let it be an insurance company from England or some financiers and offer them, or offer an Irishman, these incentives to provide flats and houses at a certain rate.

I have nothing else to add except to ask the Minister, who was not present earlier, where the extra profit on the tipped cigarettes has gone. It has not gone to the retail trade and I wonder who has got it and why, because we have been told that nobody can get profit from an increase in tax. It must be the manufacturers who are getting it.

The note of warning sounded on the introduction of this Budget was that there was a deficit of £8 million. This year the Budget was introduced two months earlier than normally. Normally, the Budget is introduced in May. We found ourselves with a Budget being introduced in March and we must ask ourselves if the Budget had run its full term of 12 months what would the deficit have been? The Minister asked what went wrong with last year's Budget and later in his speech he said that revenue under certain headings failed to come up to expectations, that expenditure for certain services had been greater than was provided for and also that errors of estimation were not realised. Who is to blame for that situation other than the Minister and the Fianna Fáil Party? If they failed to provide sufficient money to run the country last year that is their sole responsibility. The need to adjust the 1965 Budget and strengthen the financial position is so pressing that time must not be lost. That was the statement made by the Minister on the second page of his speech. One cannot but recall a slogan we all read which was plastered on every available wall during the last general election. It read: "Let Lemass lead on". But the slogan did not say where Lemass would lead us to. The people of this country have been very badly led for the past number of years by Lemass and the Fianna Fáil Party.

Recently we had the Minister for Health talking about a new Health Bill to cost about £4½ million. We had the Minister for Education talking about building new schools, comprehensive schools and so on. We have the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries telling us he has £100,000 for special schemes for the West and we have the Minister for Local Government telling us he has a big housing programme for the coming year. But do we not all know there is not one halfpenny to finance any of these schemes? If the Government want to introduce a new Health Bill, we in this Party are prepared to give them every encouragement to do so—and to do it as quickly as they can—and the Labour Party have indicated the same thing.

We were told in the 1963 Budget by the Minister for Finance that the four commodities usually taxed— tobacco, beer, spirits and oil—were overtaxed and that it was not safe to rely upon them for any further revenue. Listening to the Minister for Finance introducing his Budget this year, one was inclined to ask oneself was it for old time's sake that the axe again fell on beer, increasing it by 2d a pint; on spirits, increasing them by 4d per glass; on cigarettes and pipe tobacco, increasing them by 2d per 20-packet and 5d or 6d per oz; on petrol and diesel oil, increasing them by 4d per gallon?

The story in this year's Budget did not end there. For good measure, road tax was increased by 25 per cent for the benefit of the Exchequer, as is clearly stated. It is hard enough to ask people to pay an increased road tax without, at the same time, putting an extra 4d a gallon on petrol. I come from one of the poorest counties in the country where we have only about 25 per cent of our county roads black-topped. I would be inclined to say to the Government: If you do increase road tax, for heaven's sake, will you spend it on roads? That is something to which the Minister should give some consideration. As I say, 75 per cent of our county roads remain to be done. I would appeal to the Minister to leave the tax in the Road Fund. I recall very well the things said by the Fianna Fáil Party during the inter-Party Government when on one occasion the Road Fund was raided for one year. Now it is going to be raided continually because this 25 per cent is to go to the Exchequer.

In this year's Budget also there is an increase to ten per cent in the turnover tax on dancing, an increase of 8d on income tax, a not-so-visible increase for firearms certificates, estimated to bring in an extra £40,000, and an increase in fees charged in court offices and the Land Registry, estimated to bring in an extra £240,000. The Minister gave — the giving was very small — an extra allowance of £30 in respect of any child over 11 years of age to help educate the child, we presume, in a secondary school. I should like to know how far this £30 will go to pay for a child in a secondary school for a year. It will go a very short distance. Everybody was hoping the Minister would have given a much more substantial allowance than the £30. Last year, even though the financial position was not healthy, he could give an increase to some civil servants of as much as £900 per year or approximately £20 a week. I do not think a farmer in my constituency has made that profit for the current year, never mind getting an increase of that amount.

One could not help but spot this in the Budget. Beer, stout, spirits, table waters, tobacco and cigarettes, oil and petrol were increased the day after the Budget was introduced. The increase in income tax is to come in on 6th April; dances will be taxed at the increased rate from 1st May, cars from 1st April next and firearms certificates from 1st August. But the poor, unfortunate old age pensioners, blind pensioners and widow pensioners must wait until 1st November to get their miserable increase of 5/-. We find that approximately only one in every nine of these pensioners will qualify for this miserable increase. It is most unfair. When the Minister decided to bring in some taxes the day after the Budget and the others a month or two afterwards, surely it would not have been unreasonable to give the increase to these pensioners, as was usually done, at least from 1st August?

About this time last year we were engaged in a general election campaign, and that is a very short time ago. The Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture found time to visit the west of Ireland. I have a cutting here from the Irish Independent dated 31st March, 1965, which has the heading: “Development of West to be a Main Objective”. It says:

No other matter will receive more unremitting attention from the new Fianna Fáil Government than the economic revival of the West, Mr. Haughey, Minister for Agriculture, declared in Belmullet yesterday.

He made a rather lengthy speech and I shall quote a few points he made:

Drainage is of fundamental importance to the farmers of the West. The Shannon basin affects a great part of the West and at the special request of the Taoiseach, Mr. Lemass, Mr. Donogh O'Malley has prepared a special crash programme to get this work started immediately.

Further on, he says:

The next step then is to get the benefits of this major drainage applied to each individual farm. He knew the heartbreak of flooding and was not satisfied that the existing scheme of grants is adequate to deal with the problem as quickly as desired.

During the same general election campaign, the following heading appeared in the Irish Independent of 29th March, 1965: “Lemass tells of the Plans to Improve the West” and the Taoiseach is reported as follows:

A scheme of grants for the processing of horticultural produce was being prepared and would be announced soon, said the Taoiseach, Mr Lemass, in Ballina yesterday.

Not very far from Belmullet. I cannot help but recall a by-election that was held in my adopted constituency of Roscommon three years ago. I remember one Sunday morning taking my turn in the queue to address the electorate in the town of Castlerea. The night before Deputy O'Malley, who was then Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance, now Minister for Health, told the farmers of Roscommon that he had a scheme at the ready to drain the Shannon. That was about three years ago and the same promise was renewed during last year's general election. I do not think it would be unreasonable if I asked the Minister for Finance or any other member of the Fianna Fáil Party what they have done about the drainage of the Shannon, the Boyle river or any of the other rivers which, during the last general election campaign or the previous by-election, they promised to drain. Nothing seems to be happening in regard to drainage. Further down, the Taoiseach is reported as saying at Ballina:

Fianna Fáil was concerned with the business of government only to carry out its own programme and policy. They were not prepared to submit to the veto of somebody outside the Party. Instability and uncertainty about the survival of a government would stop people from going ahead with new enterprises until they saw what was going to happen. National programmes would come to a stop and once that happened it would be very hard to get them going again.

The situation at present was that circumstances, national and international, were "going to give us the greatest opportunity we had in our history to go ahead and build up the economy of the country."

These statements were made 12 months ago and, if I am any judge of the economy of this country, it has not built up since. He goes on, as he is doing today, to ask the Fine Gael Party what is their alternative to the Budget. As I said before in this House, we are not in government and we are not responsible to the people for the introduction of the Budget. It is the responsibility of the Fianna Fáil Party. It is neither reasonable nor fair to ask us for an alternative. The Taoiseach goes on to criticise the Fine Gael slogan which was: "It is time for a change":

"What did they mean by that?" Mr. Lemass asked. Fine Gael had pulled down and destroyed industrial enterprises which Fianna Fáil had built up, and now when there was a spectacular increase in industrial activity they said it was "time for a change."

"If this national development should be reversed again, I doubt whether the people would have the heart for the enormous efforts needed to get progress resumed for the third time," said the Taoiseach.

The Fianna Fáil Party have changed tremendously from their slogan in the last general election campaign: "Let Lemass lead on". When the Minister for Agriculture spoke here on the Budget, he made reference to the increase of 10/- per barrel for wheat. Coming from the west of Ireland, I want to say that an increase of 10/-per barrel for wheat is of no benefit to the farmers I represent here. Not alone will they get nothing out of it but it means they will have to pay more for their feeding stuffs next year. Remember, the farmers in the better-off counties have a guaranteed price for wheat, for beet and for barley. The farmers in the west of Ireland, about whom no less than the Taoiseach was so perturbed during the last general election campaign, got no hope at all from the Minister for Agriculture in his statement here last week. The Minister also said quite clearly last Tuesday that there would be no increase in the price of milk. One cannot but think of the expense being incurred by the farmers. They have to pay higher rates. They are asked to pay more for their feeding stuffs, more for their essential foodstuffs, for their boots, clothing, for their seeds and manures. There is no word about this section who were promised so much during the last general election campaign.

In his Budget speech last week, the Minister made reference to the work of the Land Commission of increasing the size of holdings in the west of Ireland. I want to tell the Minister for Finance—I am sure his colleague, the Minister for Lands, knows it well— that there are tremendous numbers of small farmers in Roscommon. Some farmers have offered their land for sale to the Land Commission but the Land Commission have made no move whatsoever to buy that land, land which could be used to push up these uneconomic holdings to 60 acres. That was promised in connection with the famous Land Bill during the Roscommon by-election three years ago. There are, too, in that constituency of Roscommon a number of people who have applied to the Land Commission to be migrated to the midlands where the Land Commission have some land on hands but no effort has been made to accede to that request.

The only little bit of hope held out by the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries was that they had increased the agricultural advisory service by 50 per cent. What is the point of increasing that service when the farmers cannot get one halfpenny credit, when they have not the money to purchase manures, seeds, or anything else, when their income is steadily dropping and the things they have to buy are increasing in price all the time? Reference was made to pilot areas. Anybody reading some of these speeches, not knowing what exactly a pilot area means, might think we were living in a paradise in the west of Ireland. In Roscommon, one parish has been taken over as a pilot area, the parish of Ballinamee. It represents a very small proportion of the farmers of Roscommon. The people in that parish have free advisory services. What good are they to them? They get an increased grant for farm buildings at 50 per cent above the ordinary grant. Under the Land Project, they get a grant of three quarters instead of two-thirds. That is the only advantage those living in the pilot area get. Reading some of the Fianna Fáil speeches, one would think the people were being paid to live.

We all hoped that, when the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries spoke the other day, he would make some reference to the price of cattle. Every farmer one meets asks what will happen the price of cattle. Has the bottom fallen out of the cattle market? What will be the outlook? Mark you, a bullock sold today at £35 was worth at least £42 to £45 this time last year. That is a drop of approximately £8 to £10. A sucking calf is down from £8 to £5. Is it any wonder farmers are asking what will happen the price of cattle? Since the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries made no reference to it, I would ask some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies, when they come to speak, to make some reference to it.

Last week the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries also implied in his speech that the Estimate for farm buildings had increased, and so also had the Estimate for land rehabilitation. Am I to take it that the grants are increased? I hope they will be. The Minister referred to a total sum of £100,000 for the small farmers of the west. What will £100,000 do? If the Lord leaves me my health, I shall be back here next year and I prophesy now that that £100,000 will not be spent unless we succeed in the meantime in putting Fianna Fáil out of office; unless we do that, nothing will be done for the small farmers of the west.

The Minister referred to the Free Trade Agreement and he talked about 25,000 tons of beef going to England under this new Agreement. He talked about 5,500 tons of lamb going to England. He made no reference whatsoever to the price our farmers will get for that beef or that lamb. Even when Fianna Fáil were boycotting the British market, the British were always prepared to buy whatever we could sell them, but at their price. That situation has not changed. The farmers would be interested to know what price they will get for their beef and for their lamb.

My colleague, who represents the same constituency as I represent, the Minister for Justice, told us on Wednesday last that the people will have to work harder.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

As I was saying, the Minister for Justice told us last week that the people would have to work harder. I do not think it would be any harm if the Government worked a bit harder. They might solve some of the problems we have at the moment. The Minister for Justice talked about the Government giving civil servants a five-day week. He said that, if the Budget were not a popular one, it was a sound one. He told us capital would flow in from abroad. He did not tell us, however, that Fianna Fáil hawked the credit of this country round the world to get a few million. They hawked it through London, through America and through Germany. We are told it will be hawked again before the end of the year. With regard to his reference to a sound Budget, one cannot but remember what he said prior to the by-election in Roscommon, only three short years ago. The Budget, he told us, would carry taxes on luxury goods, such as fur coats, expensive jewellery, and cosmetics. Mark you, there has been a big change. There is no question of taxing these articles today.

There is one other section of the community I feel justly entitled to make reference to, the small shopkeepers, better known as "the family business". The penal taxes introduced in this Budget will have a tremendously adverse effect on these people. Some speakers may call this a tax on luxury goods, but mark you, the people who are selling these luxury goods are dependent on them for their living. A number of small shopkeepers in the west of Ireland are dependent for their living on their sales of tobacco, cigarettes, beer, spirits, table waters, petrol and diesel oils. Quite naturally, with the increased taxes on these commodities, there will be a lesser sale and, with the increase in the price and no increase in the profit, it means that the profit on cigarettes will drop from eight per cent to approximately seven per cent and that factor coupled with a smaller sale, means that these people will be up against it. At the same time, they are asked to pay very high rates, in some counties from 60/- to 80/- in the £ of valuation.

Emigration has hit the west of Ireland hard. One will know the true return only when the census is taken, I think, in the month of April next. We shall then find that the population of the west of Ireland is still dropping. Yet the Government do not seem to do anything about it. It means that the small shopkeeper has fewer people to buy his goods. He is trying to educate his family but it is utterly impossible to do so out of the small sales and the small percentage of profit he will now have.

The Minister for Finance sounded another note of warning. He told us that it is possible that we may have an autumn Budget. I am not inclined to agree with that and I hope my opinion is correct. I honestly believe that the Minister has budgeted for a surplus. One would just hate even to think about an autumn Budget. After increasing beer by 2d. a pint, spirits by 4d. a glass, table waters by 6d. a gallon, cigarettes by 2d. on a packet of 20, road tax up by 25 per cent, petrol and diesel oil by 4d. a gallon and income tax up by 8d. in the £1, one would then have to ask oneself where the axe could fall in the autumn. In the 1963 Budget, we were told by the then Minister for Finance that there was no point in further taxing these four commodities — tobacco, beer, spirits and petrol—as they already carried so much tax.

In conclusion, I should like to say that it is hard for a country to survive if the rich get richer and the poor get poorer but it will be much harder for a country to survive when the rich get poor and the poor get poorer.

I think that, in this discussion, the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement, the NIEC Report and the Budget can be taken as one. We have been discussing economies for the past couple of months and now let us get down to some brasstacks about it. Inflation, in a big way, was coming when the Taoiseach uttered his warning in July last. Everybody knows what inflation means. It may suit the big man. It will certainly suit the entrenched trade unions who are strong enough to demand big wages. However, the widow living on a fixed interest or the pensioner and many other such people will be hit badly by inflation. What we stopped here was inflation and there is no doubt about that.

I can give the House a specific instance of the kind of thing that was happening. I know of a farm outside Athlone which was offered for sale about July or August last year and £15,000 was bid on it and that sum was accepted. The farm was in LaoisOffaly. The bidder could not find the money to buy it and then it passed to the next bidder, whose figure was £14,000. He, also, could not get the bank advance and a Kerryman, God rest his soul, with £10,000 in cash and credit for £2,500 got it for £12,500. In other words, he brought back the inflated value of that land from £15,000 to £12,500 which was good for the buyer, because he was able to run his farm at its proper capital value, and which was good for the seller who got his price for it. The same kind of thing was happening in relation to houses. You could see it going on all over Dublin. Galloping inflation was coming near to rot and canker in the body politic. We stopped that.

(South Tipperary): The Government started it.

We stopped it, and did so in a proper way. An economy, like a motor car, can get heated up and our economy had got very hot. We applied just that limited squeeze which was so very necessary in order to get our economy right again. I hold that, but for the steps taken by this Government, we should now be in the middle of a galloping inflation.

We had it for two years.

We had not. The cost of living had risen by one per cent.

Before the election, you did it.

I deprecate this. Deputy L'Estrange was in Westmeath on Monday when we got the lowest rate in Ireland—an increase of 1/2d. in the £—and why? I should like to tell this story.

It was 6/- in the £ last year.

Why? Because, for the past ten years, Labour and Fianna Fáil have co-operated to provide services for Westmeath. This year, we come in with a credit of £15,000 and a rate increase of ½d. in the £. Deputy L'Estrange was furious because he had not the chance to speak to the Westmeath Examiner for weeks.

Labour and Fine Gael voted together against Fianna Fáil.

I said that, for the past ten years——

Order. Will Deputy L'Estrange please desist from interrupting?

I am telling the House that the Chief Whip of the Fine Gael Party who is sitting over there. Deputy L'Estrange, behaved very badly. Imagine leading his Party out of the chamber because he was afraid to face the consequences of the best rate they have struck.

Your new-found friend tried to bulldoze——

A Deputy

Deputy L'Estrange is jealous.

Why should I be jealous, and of whom? May be between the new-found friend and Deputy Lenihan——

Deputy L'Estrange does not know about several friends I have.

I know a few. They might be mutual.

The inflationary pressure in relation to private consumption was something that would make one think and it was clear to be seen. What did the wise men of Europe have to say about inflationary tendencies in their countries? What did our people have to say?

(South Tipperary): What about the picture on the cover of this month's Dublin Opinion which stands over the heading “Closing the door when the horse has bolted”?

That was said by Deputy Dillon two years ago.

In paragraph 35 of the NIEC Comments on Department of Finance Review of Economic Progress in 1965 and Prospects for 1966, we read:

In some measure, our failure last year to recognise the financial difficulties that were then imminent arose because forecasts within the framework of the national accounts give very little indication of what is happening, or of what is likely to happen, on the financial plane. We would welcome next year, therefore, such supplementary information as can be provided on the financial and credit positions and on how they seem likely to develop.

Yet Deputy Dillon told us 17 times what would happen—wonderful astrologers, and what have you! I hold that if we can keep our prices right, it means that the value of wages will grow as production grows. I hold that prices should be held and there should be restraint on the part of the unions and the management. I would recommend also a complete restriction on dividends. That will not prevent any investors coming to this country because you can plough back into your company your undistributed dividends. We should make a struggle with restrictions in wages. I say myself: Let us hold this little country of ours. We have held it before and we will hold it again. It is only a little effort and if we do not make it, we will go, like the Gadarene swine, down the slippery slope to hell.

Deputy Burke and his sixpence a week !

This Budget is designed to curb spending power, and if we do produce a surplus, I would be glad because then we would have done our job. During this coming year, if we can hold prices, if restraint is shown by every section of the community, we will turn 1966 with a viable economy. If we do not, we have had it. This is a matter in which I do not think there should be any Party politics. There were no Party politics in 1918 or 1919 because the country was at one. Let us have price control, restraint on dividends, incomes and salaries and we will come through because this is a critical year for us.

Deputy Lenihan seems to be very pleased that when the person who made the highest bid for the farm went to raise the balance of money in the bank, he could not raise it. The person who was the second highest bidder also went to the bank to raise the balance of the money and could not raise it either. Apparently it was only someone who had the full amount of money who was able to buy that farm. Whom may we thank for that position in the country, the position of the farmer anxious, I suppose, to set up a farm for his son who had a certain amount of money and who went to raise the balance but found it was not forthcoming? Deputy Lenihan seems to be very pleased that that position has been arrived at. I would not join in the pleasure of Deputy Lenihan in that regard. Whom may we thank for that but the Government who have cleaned out every penny of credit from the banks?

I was speaking to a bank manager last week and he said: "We had a very tough time of it last year because everybody felt that the bank manager and the bank directors were accountable for not being able to issue the usual amount of credit. But," he said, "this year is not so bad because everybody understands now it is the Government who are doing it; it is the Government who are using the money and, therefore, the banks have not any money to issue out to anyone, whether he be a business man, a farmer or anybody else." No wonder Deputy Lenihan is right in saying that the man who wanted to purchase a farm could not pay for it and neither could the second purchaser pay for it, either. Apparently that is the mentality of the Fianna Fáil Party today: it is a good thing that people cannot pay for a farm at an auction. I do not agree with that line of thought.

My opinion is that as long as Fianna Fáil remain in power, the people may expect a blistering Budget each year. That has been the case down through the years in which they have been in office as far as I can see. In 1957, the Fianna Fáil Government removed the second half of the food subsidies— they had already removed the first half —at a total saving to the Government, year after year, of about £18 million. What did they do? They doubled the price of bread, substantially increased the price of butter. Still, had they been able to provide increased employment, there might be something to be said for it but they have not done that.

The next thing they did was to introduce the PAYE system, stretching the income tax net much wider than ever before and bringing in a sum, I understand, of £15 million from those liable to PAYE. Eightpence in the income tax rate this year will have a very strong bearing on the cost of living because this money is coming out of the ordinary man's pocket. In 1963, we had the introduction of the turnover tax—another £15 million put on food, fuel and the other necessaries of life, another £15 million taken out of circulation for the ordinary working man. This year, we have a £12½ million deficit which will have to be met by taxes from the ordinary man in the street, whether he is a business man, a small farmer, a large farmer or a worker. They will all have to meet their share of the £12½ million.

I wonder are the Government putting all this increased revenue to proper use? Servicing the public debt has increased from £28 million in 1960-61 to £55 million in the present year, 1966-67. So the Government have to find £55 million in the coming year to service the public debt and, I understand, that does not include the cost of servicing the German loan, £7 million, which will be another very substantial amount in the years to come. Not alone are the Government raising all this extra money in taxation each year but they are also raising much more by way of loans, which call for greatly increased taxation to service them. We would expect to see great improvements in various lines, with all the extra money the Government are taking from the people. Do we see any great improvement in local authority housing, that is, the building of houses for those who are unable to build for themselves? I know that my fellow members on the corporation and county councils are very disappointed with the progress being made in local authority housing. That is a pity.

The Minister for Health is to bring in a Health Bill for discussion, but before bringing in a Bill dealing with health, they should give the people decent housing. In Kilkenny, we have some very bad cases of housing, with the result, as I pointed out at the estimates meeting, that there has been an increase in costs for the tuberculosis hospitals and external charges. The cost has gone up by about 12 per cent. The actual cost to the council has gone up by 50 per cent. That means that more patients are now going into the tuberculosis hospital than over the past number of years. That is a very bad situation. It should be remedied as soon as possible, and the only way to remedy it is by providing decent housing. There is no use in giving a choice of doctor to a person who has no choice of dwelling.

It is the same in the case of the schools. One would expect with an expenditure of £70 million or £75 million to see more schools being built but, in fact, that is not the case. Recently we saw that the Dundalk Engineering Company went into liquidation, with a loss to the Government amounting to close on £5 million—£4,600,000, to be exact. This company has been functioning under Government supervision for some years and was in a position to compete unfairly with other engineering companies. It was getting all the work from CIE that they required in the line of engineering. I understand that when other semi-State bodies had engineering work to be done, they were advised to go to the Dundalk Engineering Company. Other engineering companies had to pay income tax and corporation profits tax to meet the losses of the Dundalk firm which was in an unfair position from the point of view of competition.

We also had the closing of the GEC factory after about six months in production, with a loss, to the Government again, of £600,000. There was the failure of the Potez factory which did not even get into production, with a loss to the State of over £1 million. I could quote several similar cases. Is the ordinary taxpayer not entitled to feel that there should be direction of and supervision over the expenditure of the money he is providing?

The taxes in this year's Budget will fall very heavily on the ordinary businessman and on the workers. The 2d. on the pint of beer will yield £2¼ million. The ordinary man is entitled to have his bottle of beer or his pint of stout after his day's work, and he will be contributing, directly again, extra taxes to the Government. The smoker is producing another £1,100,000 and the motor car owner, between the tax on fuel and road tax, will contribute £3.3 million. The increased road tax will fall very heavily on the weaker section of the community. The working man who could not afford to pay the tax for a year will have to pay the increase of 25 per cent next month, whereas the man who paid his tax for the 12 months will not be called upon to pay the increase until next January. The increase in the cost of petrol and oil will have a definite effect on delivery charges for goods of all kinds. No matter what the Government say, those increases are bound to affect the cost of living.

On the other side, we have the social welfare payments — a very small amount. Last year the Minister increased the contributory and the non-contributory pensions by 10/- a week, but he was forced to do that because of the policy of a just society which was promoted by Fine Gael during the previous general election. The Minister's hand was forced. Now when the general election is over, he comes along and gives practically nothing.

The election was over last year, too.

The Minister had to honour his bond. Not giving any increase in contributory pensions this year means that they got a rate of only 5/- each year.

The Minister for Transport and Power would probably call it a "nugatory" increase.

The total amount is £¼ million and the increase will not be given until next November. It was stated in reply to a question here last week that it is only old age pensioners without any means whatever who will be entitled to get this increase of 5/-next November. The farmer with ten, 20 or 30 acres, who transfers his farm to his son on marriage, or otherwise— and like every man he would like to be secure in residence and puts that into the agreement—will not be entitled to get this 5/- extra because residence will be charged at 1/- per week and that will debar him from getting it. One-quarter of a million pounds spread out over the old age pensioners, blind pensioners, widows and persons in receipt of unemployment assistance is a very small sum indeed.

Looking through the Estimates, I notice that the cost of administering the Road Fund this year is up by £¼ million. Compare the two: £¼ million between the old age pensioners, blind pensioners, widows and recipients of unemployment assistance, and £¼ million for administering the Road Fund. It is very hard to understand how the cost of administering the Road Fund could have taken so much in one year.

At our annual estimates meeting in Kilkenny, a proposition was made by a Fianna Fáil member of the council that the meeting should be postponed until after the Budget. He felt, and many other members of the council felt, that some provision would be made in the Budget for the relief of rates, and that if we met after the Budget, we would know better what the position was. The meeting was held on the Monday before the Budget, and it was proposed that it should be postponed until the following Monday. That man must be very disappointed, now that no money was devoted to the relief of rates. The rates in Kilkenny over the past four years have gone up by 15/4d in the £, which means that the Kilkenny ratepayers have to provide £300,000 more than they did four years ago to provide the services for the county in the present year.

The Minister for Finance, when introducing his Budget, made a passing reference to one item, the import levy. I was surprised that he did not give us more particulars about that particular levy, which was imposed last November. His words were:

The special import levy imposed last November was due to expire on 31st March but, as the balance of payments is still excessively in deficit, the Government has decided that it would be premature to allow the levy to lapse on that date. They have decided to continue it in operation in its present form until 30th June, 1966.

The least I would have thought was that he should mention that the balance of payments was still excessively in deficit. I would have thought that he would have told us now if the levy had measured up to what the Government thought it would. The Government put the levy on to help to bring our imports and exports into balance. Has it not done that? The Minister has not told us that. He has not told us what extra revenue he is getting from the levy. The Minister just passed it off when he said they would have a look at it again next June. There is more in this business than just passing it off like that. The Minister should have explained to us what he thought was the position of imports and exports and should have explained what revenue was coming from it and why it did not achieve its object.

I remember when a levy was put on in 1956 it definitely did so. We had our balance of payments position right the following year. I am surprised the Minister did not devote a little more time in his statement to that matter and give us a better picture of what he thought, and what the Government thought, about this matter.

The Taoiseach speaking here in this debate on the day following the introduction of the Budget said:

It is true, notwithstanding this expected rise in the volume of national production in this year, we are unable to forecast a rise in total employment, the fall in the numbers occupied in agriculture being likely to equal if not exceed the rise in the number of people employed in industry and other non-agricultural occupations. This is, perhaps, the most serious aspect of our national situation.

Further on, he said:

A more rapid rise in total employment must be a main aim of national policy, not merely in this year but continually. This rise in employment must be achieved entirely it seems, in non-agricultural activities.

Have the Taoiseach and the Government lost interest in agriculture? Have they lost all interest in promoting employment in agriculture or even maintaining it as it is at present? The Taoiseach states that he expects a big increase in industrial employment but he expects that the total employment will still be reduced in the next year.

The Taoiseach should not get away with stating that. After all, that problem is there and it is up to the Government and the Taoiseach to devise ways and means of overcoming it. They may say to me: "What would you do?" That is the Government's job. They have experts in the Department of Agriculture to promote agricultural industry. God knows, it is a sorry state of affairs when it has got to the stage that the Taoiseach makes this bald statement in the House that even if we have an increase in employment in the industrial field, our total employment will go down because we may expect a reduction in employment in agriculture. He follows on again with just one wave of his hand and he says that this may be due to economic reasons. Does he not know in his heart and soul it is due to economic reasons?

The wheat acreage last year was down 12 per cent and I believe that over the next few years it will be down 50 per cent, even with the increase of 10/- a barrel this year. I doubt, from speaking with farmers round my own county, whether there will be any great increase in the acreage of wheat sown because through neglect by the Government and the Department of Agriculture to see that we get proper seed a number of farmers lost their crops last year because the seed they had was much too long in this country. You cannot expect people to risk the amount of money required to buy seed at the present time, together with the price of manures, labour and all the various costs which farmers have to bear. You cannot expect them to take risks to produce wheat when there is a liability that they may not reap any crop whatever. This is a far cry from the time when the Fianna Fáil Government had on all the envelopes: "Grow More Wheat". It was on every envelope, whether it went down the country, to the towns or anywhere else.

In 1957, when the present Government came in, they reduced the price of feeding barley from 48/- to 38/- a barrel. Last year they increased that to 40/-, and this year they increased it to 45/-, so, for a number of years, farmers will be getting less per barrel for feeding barley than they got ten years ago. Is it any wonder that the facts are as stated by the Taoiseach, that there is a reduction in employment in agriculture? Is it any wonder that is a fact when you have farmers getting less per barrel for producing barley in 1966 than they were getting in 1956? It is not even a three per cent increase for the farmers at that price. Actually, it is more than a three per cent reduction. Most of the people in Government services have got a 12 per cent increase. There have been status increases of anything up to £900 for civil servants. When the people hear that, they wonder why the Government could not even give an increase in the price of barley. That would provide a certain amount of employment but apparently the Government are not interested in the agricultural industry. They see no immediate return from it. It is not surprising to see, therefore, that the acreage of corn crops was down by 40,000 last year. We imported this year a record amount of £16 million worth of cereals. This money could have been put into the pockets of our farmers. We are sending out the money and bringing in barley, wheat and other cereals. It is very hard to understand it.

The Taoiseach referred to agriculture in his statement. He said it is not surprising there has been a reduction in the numbers employed in agriculture. This year, it was generally believed by farmers that there would be an increase of 2d or 3d a gallon in the price of milk but apparently no increase whatever is to be given. On the other hand, the producers of milk, barley and wheat will have to contribute their share of the £12½ million extra taxation sought. They will not be told they need not contribute because they are not to get more in prices for their produce. They will be told to pay up or leave the farms. It is not good enough, therefore, for the Taoiseach to say simply that it was to be expected employment would decrease in agriculture. He must consider this problem more seriously.

Apparently the Government are hanging their hats on the possibility of increased exports of stores, fat cattle and beef in the near future when the British Government will pay the deficiency payments and will thus relieve the Irish Government. Surely with this easement of the Government more encouragement should be given to the ordinary farmers by way of better prices for milk, better subsidies for barley, and so on. People had hoped that when the British Government took over responsibility for the deficiency payments some of the money would fall back to the ordinary farmers. The situation is that no benefits whatever have been given to the farmers in this Budget.

The NFA called off the rates campaign following consultations with the Minister for Agriculture. The NFA, led by their chairman, had long discussions with the Minister on the eve of the strike being called off, and every member of the Association, indeed, every farmer in the country, felt some encouragement would be given to the farmers—that there would have been some give and take as a result of their calling off the rates campaign. At the moment, there is heavy unemployment in my constituency. In the town of Carlow, it was stated on television last night, there are 500 people signing on in the labour exchange, the highest number on record. Is that what we expected from the Government after all their promises before the last election? We have a Budget providing for £12½ million in extra taxation. We have been told that between 1951 and 1965 there was a reduction in employment in this country of 160,000. That means that now the greatest amount of money ever taken out of the ratepayers' pockets comes from the smallest number ever employed in this country.

The Budget debate has followed the stereotyped pattern of former years. Irrespective of what the Minister for Finance does in the Budget, the Opposition Parties do not see any merit in it and offer no real constructive criticism of it. The Budget this year makes one tremendous contribution to the entire thinking of the country; it is an honest Budget which shows clearly that we cannot be lulled into a false sense of security but that we must, for the sake of present security and future prosperity, be realistic in our approach to the many problems we face. There has been a relief in estate duty and that is welcome. It is a very laudable contribution because widows and other dependants often suffered hardships because of provisions of earlier Finance Acts. Of course, nothing can be done overnight because these matters demand and must receive close consideration and lengthy thinking before any drastic changes can be effected.

There has been much play about the increase in motor taxation. Can we truthfully and fairly say that £3 or £4 more per annum will make motoring exhorbitantly high and costly to the ordinary person? The average motorist five or six times each year has a mileage service carried out to his car at a cost of at least £6. Nowadays, many people drive to work— thank God, they can—and it has been implied that this will militate against them. The days when workers had to cycle or trudge to work are gone. A car is perhaps a luxury but it is a sign of the positive improvement in the position of our workers that they can now drive to work and arrive at the place of their work in a fit condition to commence work without any physical fatigue.

At every bend of the road, the Opposition cry out for better services and for an improvement of the existing services. If all these were to be implemented, we would have a Budget double this Budget. The Minister is not a villain because he has to be realistic. He must face vast demands and measure them against the ability of the country to meet them. The Budget has distributed the common burden of taxation more equitably than many other Budgets because it has been wide in its scope and has not looked to the traditional targets of taxation alone—it has increased them somewhat—but has gone beyond them to the real luxury lines such as dancehalls and so on that make their money relatively easily. Some years ago when a stamp duty was imposed on the dancehall business, the charge at dances went from 5/- to 6/3 but when the stamp duty was revoked, the ballroom proprietors failed to note that and still charged 6/3. The band and dancehall business has become one of the top luxury lines and one of the easiest ways of making money. The affluence of the pop stars has become almost a legend in five years and it is only fair that the Minister should look to these people to subscribe their just share to the national burden of taxation.

This year has not been very pleasant. We have had a rather stormy passage with industrial disputes, but if we all, whether we are in private, or state employment or are self-employed, faced the facts and agreed to hold the line at this stage without excessive demands from any other organised section so as to give a more equitable distribution of national wealth, we would do good service to the country. While you have pressure groups constantly demanding special treatment for themselves, giving little or no thought to the welfare of others, we cannot allow the small farmers or rural workers to become forgotten people and the militant, highly organised people in other sections of the community to become the ascendancy. This was never my concept of Irish life and it is something that must be taken into consideration by the Minister, as he has indicated, by a three per cent increase which would be equitable in present circumstances. If we can have increased production, then increases in remuneration must follow, but it is only the height of folly for anyone to demand or expect increased remuneration through pressurising without increased production.

We are the elected representatives of the people and we have a responsibility to them. We cannot be dictated to by anyone outside the House because it is the people in the final analysis who have the right to elect or reject and it is from us they must seek and get guidance in the best interests of the nation. If that guidance is not forthcoming, we should lose confidence in ourselves and merit the loss of the people's confidence. We must, therefore, be realistic and that is exactly what the 1966 Budget is. It is positive and has nothing negative in it.

This being the 50th anniversary of 1916, we could well revise our ideas of patriotism. Fifty years ago, the man who was prepared to give his blood for this country was a true patriot; today the man willing to give a little more of his capacity to work can well be termed the patriot of the modern age. In increasing taxation, the Minister cannot expect to get bouquets from the Opposition. That was never the practice and I suppose so long as the Opposition remains such, it never will be, but I think the Opposition Parties should be a little more precise about what, if any, economies can be effected. Neither the Minister nor anyone on this side of the House would be averse to hearing them.

The Deputy, of course, is aware that the Chair has ruled out as proper for the Estimates, suggestions of detailed economies?

I am sure they will be welcome at any stage but merely saying that the country can be more cheaply run, without giving any indication of how that is to be done, is not sincere or in the best interests of the country. All in all, this Budget has not been the gloomy, dismal effort the Opposition would have us believe. The people of the country have accepted it and in the final analysis, they are judges.

What option have they?

We must be responsible, however other Parties may choose to act, although they also are charged with responsibility. The Government and this Party must accept responsibility. With that in mind, the Minister has brought in a Budget which lays down what the future of the country is tied up with and what we must face up to if we are to maintain the growth and secure the improvements we would wish for.

Having waded through the 41 page document which is the financial statement of the Minister, I found it very hard to see where the reliefs are in this Budget about which we heard so much from some of the Government speakers. On page 7, under "Additional Taxes", we find the contradiction of what was said not so long ago by a previous Minister for Finance when he introduced the turnover tax. People may be tired of the term "turnover tax"—I am sure there is no shopkeeper who is not tired of it—but it is no harm to remind the Government that when the tax was introduced, we were given to understand that it was the cure for all our ills, that the old methods of taxation were obsolete, that petrol, cigarettes, the workman's pint and so on could not stand any more.

What happened? The Government collect £14 million or £15 million a year from this tax but it is not still sufficient for their spending spree. That spree has gone on but now the Taoiseach and his Ministers and every member of the Government Party are telling the people that it is time to tighten their belts. We were not told this 12 months ago, before the last general election. If we had been told at that stage, I am sure the picture would be different today as to the persons sitting on the Government benches. The election was not long over when we got the odd little hint from the Taoiseach and his Ministers that everything in the garden was not so rosy. We passed on through the year, a year which the previous speaker has mentioned as being a difficult year. I am not quite sure whether he meant it was a difficult year for the Government or a difficult year for the taxpayers and the ordinary rank and file in the country.

The Government had their spending spree and used up practically all the finances of the country, including those of the commercial banks. A reply which I got last week to a Parliamentary Question revealed that the amount borrowed by the Government from the Agricultural Credit Corporation since 1st April, 1965, was £500,000 and that the total repayment in that year was £200,000. Is it any wonder that farmers are dissatisfied at the moment and that they have difficulty in getting payment of the various grants when this kind of thing is happening? We would never have been told about this, were it not for a Parliamentary Question. When this kind of thing is happening, I think—and it is something that I do not like to say —the finances of the Government at the moment are at a very low ebb. The proof of that is that the Government had to go to Germany to get a loan, when they could not get it elsewhere, at a very high rate of interest, the highest rate ever paid by any Government of this country.

The turnover tax was to be the cure for all our ills. We have had increases in taxes since this was introduced. Not so long ago, when petrol distributors tried to increase the price of petrol, there was a great shindy at a Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis and the petrol distributors were told that they could not increase the price of the petrol. Yet, the then Minister for Finance, in the following Budget, increased the price of petrol.

This year, prior to the Budget, the Prices Section of the Department of Industry and Commerce were very busy. When some licensed vintners increased their prices, they were told they could not do that and there were inspectors from the Department flying all over the country, going into licensed vintners' premises and questioning the prices being charged. I do not know what that cost but I am sure these inspectors did not travel on fresh air. Yet, having frightened the life out of every licensed vintner, the Minister for Finance came into Dáil Éireann and increased the price of beer by 2d a pint, the price of spirits by 4d a glass and the price of table waters by 6d a gallon. Admittedly, these commodities may be called luxuries but there are many old age pensioners and many working men to whom the pint or the half of whiskey is a tonic.

I am not criticising the taxation of luxuries but there were other luxury items besides the pint or the bottle of beer that is the beverage of practically every ordinary man. I suppose it is not as bad as the turnover tax by which the Government taxed everybody's bread and butter.

The road tax on private vehicles is increased by 25 per cent. The previous speaker from the Fianna Fáil benches said that the day when people went on bicycles or walked to work was gone, and he thanked God for it. I thoroughly agree with him. I am delighted that it is gone. But, in framing the Budget the Minister for Finance should have had some consideration for the people who use vehicles —call them private, if you like. Many working men drive to work and perhaps four or five colleagues may be carried in one car. Now they will find an additional cost of transport, due to the additional taxation imposed on private vehicles by this Government and the additional tax on petrol. At the end of the week, they will find a greater deduction from their wage packets in respect of PAYE. The industrial worker is being caught in respect of PAYE, transport, beer and cigarettes.

Deputy Davern suggested that the Budget has been accepted by the country. I do not think I could agree with him in that. If Deputy Davern and his colleagues were to test the feeling of the country at the moment, they would not be long in finding out whether this Budget was accepted or not.

Now I come to the old age pensioners. The increase of 5/- a week to come next November has been spoken of as a relief in this Budget. I hope the old age pensioners are aware that in order to qualify for this increase, they must have no means. I gather from that that a person with an income of even one shilling a week will not qualify for this increase. If that is all the Government can announce as the great reliefs which they have given in the Budget, then it is a very poor effort.

We come now to the increase in beers and spirits which I said already have been described as luxuries and perhaps we are agreed on that, but I wonder if the Minister and the Government realise that these increases are quite likely to cause more unemployment. I believe that the people I have mentioned, the industrial workers, the labourers and anybody who is drawing a weekly pay-packet, will find, that due to the number of increases generally, they will either have to smoke less or drink less in order to provide for their families and themselves and, therefore, this Budget must have the effect of cutting back on a person's ordinary spending. I gather from the Minister's statement that that is one of the ideas behind the Budget. However, I do not know how the fact that we are asked to save can be reconciled with the fact that taxes are put on certain items, in the hope that more will be consumed and that the Minister will get sufficient revenue from them.

Harsh and all as the Budget is, we do not finish there, because we have been warned that when the Minister has another look at the situation towards the end of the year, he will see how things are shaping. That is only a gentle hint to this House and to the public that we will face another Budget before the end of 1966. We talk about these increases, about the money which is necessary for the Government to carry on; we hear all this talk about the Second Programme for Economic Expansion and we see all the White Papers laid on the Table of the House and circulated among Deputies, and while all this is going on, we are told, as we have been in the past, although, of course, we do not believe it now, that prosperity is around the corner. I need only look at my own constituency. Deputy Crotty referred to the numbers at the labour exchange. Yesterday morning I was walking in the town and I saw something I had not seen for many years. I must correct my colleague on this occasion as he said there were 500 at the labour exchange, but I think there were over 600 people signing at the labour exchange in Carlow. Then we talk about prosperity. We talk about our programmes for economic expansion. What use are all these programmes and all these White Papers and everything said in this House, if we have not got employment for our people?

In regard to housing, as far as I can see, there is money for nothing. Six months ago the development of a site for a housing scheme started in my own town. The tender for the houses was not accepted by the Minister for Local Government because it was too high. The scheme was readvertised and the tenders have gone to the Department again and the people in Carlow are still waiting for their houses. We have a position—and I asked a question about this three or four months ago—in which the Carlow Urban Council asked for sanction for a swimming pool which they were about to build. I was told by the Minister for Local Government at the time that the question was being considered but I could not be told when it would be sanctioned. The Minister spoke about a smaller type of pool. The people in the town and surrounding districts at this stage had subscribed over £5,000 for the maintenance of the pool when it is completed. They are still awaiting sanction from the Department of Local Government. Perhaps the Minister thinks that a prototype pool would be better and he can have his own ideas on that. It would be very difficult for him to sanction a swimming pool when he cannot have houses built. I am afraid that the hold-up is caused by the fact that the money is not there. The Government have not got the money at the moment and that is the big trouble.

I heard people talking about houses falling down on their occupants in Dublin but I can tell you that in my town and in my constituency, there are people living in overcrowded and disgraceful conditions. When these taxes are collected and when the Government put their hands deeper into the taxpayer's pocket, will we still, at the end of another 12 months, come back in the next Budget and find that we still have our housing problems and that practically no advancement has been made? Will we still find that people are living in overcrowded conditions? Are we still going to spend money on Ministers for External Affairs and other Ministers of Government flitting here and there, while our people are living in overcrowded and disgraceful conditions in 1966?

If I were convinced that the revenue from these heavy taxes would be used for the right purposes, that the money would be spent in the proper way, and I have yet to be convinced of that, I would not object as strongly as I do, It is very hard for a Deputy to have coming to him week after week people from town and country who are still living in overcrowded conditions. Yet the Government have taxed everybody to the hilt, even these people. Their bread and butter was taxed when the turnover tax was introduced.

I can see in the Minister's Budget speech practically no reliefs. There is nothing but increased taxation. There is nothing for the farming community, for the NFA, who marched in my town. I do not know what say the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries had when this Budget was being framed, but I cannot see a penny for the farmers in it.

We had occasion in this House to discuss certain industries which received grants from the Government. I heard the Minister for Finance state that a high percentage of the companies which got grants were successful. However, I am convinced that this Government have pumped millions into industries which will not pay dividends. Some companies were opened with a great deal of speech-making and cutting of tape and there was talk of the hundreds that would be employed. It would be interesting to look at them today to see how many are employed.

When the Government are considering grants for industrialists they ought to be very careful. They should remember that the money they are giving out is not Fianna Fáil money and is not Government money but is the taxpayers' money. They ought to be more careful before they spend the taxpayers' money. That is one of the reasons I am not happy about this taxation. I should like to know where the money is to go. At the rate things have been going year after year, the Minister for Finance will come back within a few months, or if not, certainly next year, and we will have the same story again—additional taxation, the hand deeper down in the taxpayer's pocket. At the last election there were posters all over the country—one stares me in the face every night on the way home on a gable-end in Kilcullen—proclaiming "Let Lemass Lead On". If the Minister's speech is the answer to Lemass leading on, I am very glad I was not following him in the last election.

The Minister for Finance introducing his Budget gave us the balanced, hard facts.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I wonder what would happen at Question Time if we did not extend our courtesy to the Opposition? I was saying the Minister gave us balanced, hard facts as well as a review of expenditure. When he introduced his Budget in 1965, he gave an unparalleled increase in social services. It was generally regarded as a social Budget. It must be remembered that some of those increases came into force on 1st August. From August to March is eight months. Others came in with the New Year. From January to March is three months. This year when the Budget was introduced, the Minister was faced with raising the money to finance those social increases for a full 12 months. That meant either putting them back where they were or taxing something.

It is well to note that when we went into the Lobbies to vote, the Opposition Parties went in and voted against raising taxes to keep up these increased social services. The Government Party went in and voted—it was hard, if you like—to raise taxes to maintain them. In the light of that, is it any wonder that old age pensioners and those drawing widows' and orphans' pensions, in fact all who gained through social service increases, have no faith in the Opposition Parties?

On the agricultural front, the Minister for Finance was forced to get money to pay for the subsidies on an estimated increased intake of 25 million gallons of milk into our creameries. As we know, milk is subsidised at from 4d to 7d per gallon. Once again when we in the Government Party went into the Lobbies we voted for taxes which would maintain that subsidy on milk, but the Opposition voted against that, so that milk would be selling barely above its value, and one can imagine how that would work out in respect of a farmer with a herd of ten cows or less. The day is coming when we must give an increase to the small dairy farmer with nine or ten cows, say, on the first 8,000 or 10,000 gallons of milk. The grant which was given never actually reached him because he was unable to add the extra cattle to his herd.

The Opposition criticise all the taxes; yet they are saying the increased benefits are not sufficient. However, they have not told the House how they would raise the money for all the extra things they promise to do. They talk about abolishing the turnover tax but they have not told us what they would put in its place. At the last general election, they did not make the turnover tax a great issue at all. There has been a great deal of talk about the last general election which has not got much to do with the Budget.

The Opposition suggest that the Irish people will never forgive themselves for letting "Lemass lead on", but who else was to lead on? The Fine Gael Party put up a man who, when he did not succeed in becoming Taoiseach, was sacked by his own Party in a short time. It was disgraceful for them to put forward a man who they knew in their hearts was not fit to lead their Party.

The dancehall proprietors are very much annoyed at the imposition of the dance tax. They say their attendances will go down. Many dancehalls have attendances of a couple of thousand and if their profits are divided on a 60/40 basis, this represents a substantial income to those concerned. It is a well-known fact that some of these pop stars can earn more in one month than the Taoiseach receives for 12 months. It may be said that the people who attend the dances will have to pay the extra money but it is up to them to make their own terms with the dancehall proprietors.

In regard to the tax on petrol, it is a great pity we cannot separate the petrol used for joy-riding from that required for essential purposes, as is done in the case of diesel oil for agricultural purposes as distinct from non-agricultural purposes. However, as that is not possible in the case of petrol, the Minister had no choice but to strike a happy medium in regard to this tax.

There has been a great deal of talk about an autumn Budget. The Minister has mentioned it. He has put the facts very plainly to us, that if things do not go right in the meantime, we shall be faced with an autumn Budget, that he intends to keep things balanced. There are certain people in the community who think they can force the Minister's hand to bring in a Budget which will suit them. The sooner those ideas are scotched the better so that a sensible attitude will prevail.

The Opposition have referred to money being wasted in industry. It is a good thing to know that 97 per cent of the industrial projects embarked upon have proved fruitful. If the Opposition were in power, I wonder what would happen in Cork. We would have no Verolme Dockyard and no airport. There would be no application to extend the borough boundary of Cork because the people would not be there.

The Government have shown that, while this may not be a very popular Budget, they are always prepared to meet the situation whether the tide is flowing with them or against them. They are always prepared to let the people know the facts. They are not like the Coalition Governments who ran away in times of difficulty.

It would be much better for the people of Cork county if the boundary was not extended.

Deputy Meaney said it was the practice of the Fianna Fáil Party to let the people know the facts. Surely he does not mean to tell the House or the people outside that Fianna Fáil have let the people know the facts on this occasion? Is it not true that prior to the last general election Fianna Fáil went around the country and deliberately misled the people, realising full well that at that time the country was in serious financial difficulties? It was only when they succeeded in tricking the people into electing them, when they got back into office and appointed their Ministers and Parliamentary Secretaries that, some months later, the Taoiseach came into the House and announced the bad news.

The Taoiseach then told us the plight of the country and reminded us we would have to tighten our belts. From the Leader of our Party, Deputy Cosgrave, and from the other members of our Party he got a sympathetic hearing and was assured of our fullest co-operation in facing the serious situation that existed. That does not mean that we have not a duty to stand up in this House and expose the dis-honesty of Fianna Fáil prior to the last election and, for that matter, down through the years.

There has been much talk about the turnover tax, and rightly so. It is true that it is the cause of most of our ills. Let us consider the situation in which that tax was imposed. Fianna Fáil had not the majority to impose that tax but with the usual intrigue and trickery, they convinced a certain Independent Deputy from my constituency to vote for that tax. As a consequence, he has since been known and will forever be known as Turnover Joe. For that, of course, he got a seat in the Upper House. That was the bargain and the world and his mother know it. Yet the people on the Government side of the House are trying to convince Deputies on this side that they are the people in the white garments, the really pure people who would not stand for any political stunts or trickery. They will have a job trying to sell that to the people the next time they face an election.

Seeing Deputy Major de Valera in the House, I should just like to remind him, in passing, how he ran the convention in Ballina prior to the last election. A notice appeared in the papers that the convention would be held in camera. The Press would not be permitted. In order to try to make it respectable, none other than Deputy Vivion de Valera, trading under a great name, came down to run the convention. The doors were closed.

Did the Deputy open them?

No, I did not; but the Deputy paid the price because we elected two Fine Gael Deputies in that constituency. Fianna Fáil got only one seat. It is no harm to remind Fianna Fáil that they are not as honest and straightforward as they would have people believe. The election is over now and we are here discussing the Budget proposals. The people opposite are trying to convince themselves and, to some degree, the people outside, that this is a good Budget. I disagree. As the Leader of our Party and the Leader of the Labour Party have acknowledged, the Minister for Finance is not the ordinary run-of-the-mill Fianna Fáil Deputy. He is regarded as a good, decent, straightforward type. It is very difficult for him, working with the present Taoiseach, to keep a straight line because he is dealing with a gentleman who knows all the political tricks and who has succeeded more than once in codding the Irish people. He has been found out now though, because, prior to the last general election, he told everybody that the economy was sound and that, if the people wanted prosperity to continue, it was necessary for them to let Lemass lead on. He succeeded on that occasion. I doubt very much if he will have the same success in the future. I would go so far as to say that it would be a good thing for the Fianna Fáil Party to change leadership at this stage because public confidence in the present Taoiseach has been badly shaken.

(Interruptions.)

Public confidence in the Taoiseach is shaken. People do not regard Deputy Jack Lynch, the Minister for Finance, as being the same type as the Taoiseach. Not everybody in this Republic knows Deputy Jack Lynch personally, but they have seen him on television, and quite a number regard him as a decent, honest man. That is the way too in which I regard him. His leader, however, does not bear the same reputation at all as the Minister for Finance. The fact that the Irish people have taken the Budget proposals even as well as they have, and they have not taken them well, and even if there is not something like a revolution, is due in the main to the personal popularity of the Minister for Finance, and to nothing else.

Is there no such thing as Cabinet responsibility?

What about Deputy MacEntee's letter in the Irish Times?

I said "Cabinet responsibility."

He was in the Cabinet.

The Deputy contributed briefly to the debate and he was not interrupted. Let Deputy O'Hara speak now.

I am entitled to interrupt.

No one is entitled to interrupt.

Deputy O'Hara now, on the Budget.

These Budget proposals, with all the increased taxation, are very bad for the country as a whole. Personally, I do not blame the Minister for these bad proposals. They have been brought about because of bad government by the Fianna Fáil Party for approximately the past 27 years.

The inter-Party.

The inter-Party Government were there and we gave the people a cheap bag of flour and a cheap pound of tea. We gave them cheaper butter and several other cheaper items. We did not impose a turnover tax. If we did run into financial difficulties, since the Deputy seems anxious to remind us of them, at least we gave the people cheap foodstuffs and we did not have the number of strikes we have today.

Because no one was working.

There are 160,000 fewer people working today. The Deputy got the figures from his Parliamentary Secretary.

They did not take into account the people who left the Deputy's farm. They were not included in that.

Included in what? I have three more men employed than the Deputy has.

Acting Chairman

Deputy O'Hara, on the Budget.

This country has been mismanaged by Fianna Fáil all down through the years. This is an agricultural country. Agriculture is its main industry. When Fianna Fáil first took over, they started immediately to sabotage Irish agriculture. I do not want at this stage to go into the merits, or otherwise, of the Economic War or the slaughter of the calves.

Fianna Fáil would be very glad to have them today.

Yes, and we would not be paying a £15 bonus to try to get them.

Or a great deal more money to Britain now to eat our butter.

In my opinion, Fianna Fáil started off on the wrong foot and they have stayed on that wrong foot ever since. We are paying the price today. Because of the wrong policy of Fianna Fáil, the Minister for Finance was forced into the position in which he finds himself today. No businessman would wreck his own business and try to substitute for it unnatural sidelines. Fianna Fáil told us that the British market was gone, and gone for ever, and thanks be to God; last year, to the surprise of everybody, and despite all they had said against the British market, they went over to Britain and negotiated a free trade agreement, which we discussed in this House some weeks ago. I sincerely hope that that agreement will be of some benefit to the Irish economy. We had the market up to 1932 but Fianna Fáil began to throw it away. They could not see anything good in it: "Burn everything British except their coal." They convinced the people that that was right.

Who was it said that?

All down through the years, in election after election, at street corners, at fairs, at chapel gates and at crossroads, you had that propaganda and you were selling that idea to the Irish people.

And the road for the bullock.

We are paying dearly for that mistaken outlook now. What has Deputy Lenihan to say about the pronouncement of the Bishops from the dioceses of Galway, Achonry, and Elphin, who met in Charlestown? They declared that thousands of homes were closing in the west of Ireland. Does Deputy Lenihan now tell the Irish people that their Lordships, the Bishops, were wrong in what they said?

I have no connection with the west.

I am not saying the Deputy has. The people there would not tolerate him within 80 miles of the place, to be honest about it. If Deputy Lenihan wants to ignore the facts, he may do so but the fact is that many rural areas are becoming depopulated. All along the western seaboard, from the north-west to the south-west, particularly where the land is poor in those mountainous regions, hundreds of homes are closing down. The busiest people in my part of the country at present are the ESB who are engaged not on installing electricity in homes there but in disconnecting it. Let me remind the House, also, that the Fianna Fáil people said at one time that the ESB was a white elephant.

My goodness!

The people have gone. It is not just one member of the family who goes but the whole family. These factors do not seem to matter to Fianna Fáil. If they want to test the value of their policy down through the years, I invite any member of the Fianna Fáil Party to come down to my constituency, or to Leitrim, which is an outside constituency, to parts of Galway and Donegal and it will be seen that there are scores of homes there which are now closed down. The people have lost confidence in any Irish Government. It will be very difficult to restore confidence in them in any native Government after what they have experienced. The conditions that now prevail in this country are not what they were promised in the past by Fianna Fáil. When I was a young lad, listening to their propaganda, I remember they said they would go across to England and to America and ask our emigrants to return home because there was prosperity to be had for them at home and a good future. Today, as a result of Fianna Fáil blundering, we find that homes are closed and probably will remain closed, to judge from the way things are going. Certainly, there is nothing in these budgetary proposals that will have the effect of enticing back to this country some of our people who have left it. Like myself, Deputy Molloy has travelled the west of Ireland. Consider the position in towns such as Foxford, Crossmolina, Swinford, Kilkelly, Kiltimagh, and so on. Deputy Molloy has seen and I have seen, because I have been on the road and I know it, the state of affairs in towns like Charlestown and the others I have named. I will exclude Foxford because it is my home town and an industry is located there, not thanks to Fianna Fáil because it was there long before they came into government. All these towns are gradually closing down and there is hardly a person to be seen in the street. Deputy Molloy knows that well.

I saw a man with £20 a week leaving Crossmolina and going to England, not because of Fianna Fáil or anybody else.

Deputy Molloy is referring to a little patch of temporary prosperity——

Acting Chairman

Deputy Molloy must cease interrupting.

The taxation was so great that the man was driven out of the country.

They want amenities.

They will not get them from Fianna Fáil. They will get only a hard shut door.

The little boy, Deputy Molloy, wants a smack of the stick now and again.

Give him a yo-yo and a soother.

Acting Chairman

Deputies on each side of the House must cease interrupting and Deputy O'Hara must be allowed to continue to speak without interruption. Other Deputies will have an opportunity to contribute to the debate later.

On one occasion, due to the lamented death of Deputy Ruttledge, candidates contested a byelection. I should just like to remind Fianna Fáil that on that occasion the people of that constituency were promised a factory: that was the way they got votes. Why did we get the power station which we have? We got it in the election of 1951 in order to restore a Fianna Fáil candidate in my constituency. They succeeded in doing so when I was lying on a hospital bed. You can bring down all the Ministers —the Minister for Health, the Minister for Social Welfare; the Minister for Justice——

The hard-working Minister for Justice.

——the hard-working Minister for Justice: You can bring them all down but there are two Deputies in that constituency who will give them a run for their money at any time. Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

We know that, in the past, the small farmers depended mainly on the sale of certain commodities which they produced. They produced eggs, pigs, turkeys, sheep and, to a lesser degree, cattle. According to statistics, the income of the small farmer, particularly in the west of Ireland, is in many cases less than £4 a week and that in the main is due to the fact that, in their time, Fianna Fáil have done precious little to help them.

One of the problems we have in the west of Ireland is a lime deficiency. It is natural to expect a serious lime deficiency in hilly country. In many instances, it would take up to four or five tons an acre to correct that deficiency. The point can be made, too, that, in some cases, there are extensive commonages, sometimes up to 1,000 or 2,000 acres. The farmers who are interested in such areas of land are not likely to buy lime, at least in sufficient quantity, to correct the serious deficiency where it exists on commonages. Also, there is much need of phosphates and potash in some areas.

Let us examine the Fianna Fáil record in relation to lime. Deputy Dillon has often reminded them of their record as far as lime and their famous soil-testing facilities at Johnstown Castle are concerned. I remember hearing him describe them here one day. He said they had a bicycle wheel, a rusty nail, an empty pound jam jar and probably a safety pin for the testing of the soil of Ireland in Johnstown Castle. But not a bit of lime was available to those people until Deputy Dillon became Minister for Agriculture and introduced the ground limestone subsidy which was, of course, of great benefit to the farmers as a whole and corrected the serious mistake made by Fianna Fáil all down through the years of having no lime available or, at least, not in sufficient quantities to correct the lime deficiency as it increased from year to year.

The procedure was that you sat on top of a bag or heap of limestone. The first operation was breaking stones and then you started to put the stones into a limekiln and you waited up for about a week. Out of that, you had something like 15 cwt. of lime. It was our Minister for Agriculture in the days of the inter-Party Government who took action with regard to that problem. But all down through the years the Fianna Fáil Government, who claim to know so much about agriculture and the Taoiseach who pretended he was so interested in the farmers—particularly in recent times he has become very fond of the small farmers according to his statements but I have not seen any proof of it— failed to make the necessary lime available to be put out on the land. The woman of the house might as well try to bake a cake without some rising agent, or the baker might as well try to bake a loaf without yeast as to think you could continue to grow crops successfully without sufficient time. That had very serious consequences on the Irish economy and it was not corrected until the 1948 inter-Party Government with Deputy Dillon, as Minister for Agriculture; he saw the need and took action.

These are some of the things responsible for the present financial difficulty in this country. Recently I attended a meeting at which the three Deputies for North Mayo, in addition to the Senator I have mentioned already, also attended in a place called Ballycroy. Prior to that, I attended a meeting in a place called Keenagh and the majority of the people in those mountainous areas engage in mountain sheep farming. The people pointed out to their three Deputies and the Senator that their mountain sheep last year drew only 30/- per head. That was some time ago and it is well to remind the Parliamentary Secretary that he has some responsibility for the west. It is as well to remind him that a little creamery was opened in the Belmullet area and the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries came down to perform the opening ceremony. While he was there, a deputation of those mountain sheep farmers was received by him and he discussed their problem with them. These farmers told me at the meeting I mentioned that the Minister gave certain assurances that he would have something done about their problem. The Fianna Fáil Deputy for North Mayo is a decent man and he was challenged on that point at the meeting, he being the Deputy representing the Government Party, and the answer he gave was that the new Free Trade Agreement would change the whole position regarding the prices of those mountain sheep and lambs.

Notice taken that 20 Members were not present; House counted, and 20 Members being present,

I was pointing out that I understood from the Fianna Fáil Deputy in North Mayo, at that meeting, that the new Free Trade Agreement, when it became effective, would bring about an improvement in the prices of those mountain sheep and lambs. I want to remind the House that the people who live in the mountainous regions are the type of people who have preserved the language and Gaelic culture all down through the years. They have done so against great odds and great difficulties.

Deputy L'Estrange, the bell-ringer.

Deputy Burke should do as the Sunday Independent suggested—stand on O'Connell Bridge with his little tin box.

Deputy L'Estrange could go up to the church and ring the bell.

If Deputy Burke did that, I would surely throw in a tanner because he is from my own county.

Sorry; I would not interrupt Deputy O'Hara in a hundred years.

I know Deputy Burke would not. However, I was trying to point out that, in my opinion, we owe those people a lot. We certainly owe them better treatment than is being meted out to them now. I am glad to see a Deputy here who would be concerned to the same extent as myself, I am sure, about these matters because in the part of the country from which he comes there is a similar situation, a situation in which mountain sheep and lambs have not been making anything like the prices necessary to make them an economic or worthwhile undertaking.

I would ask the Parliamentary Secretary who has an interest in these matters to take that matter up at once with the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries and see if anything can be done to help those people because they deserve our help; they deserve better from this House and they deserve better from an Irish Government than to have to dispose of their sheep, in this day and age, at 30/- per head when one considers money values today. We are forced to look at the position when more and more have to leave the country every year. It is certainly a serious problem for them when they have to dispose of their stock at such small prices.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 23rd March, 1966.
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