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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 11 May 1966

Vol. 222 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Vote 38—Agriculture.

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £35,309,000 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on 31st of March, 1967, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries including certain Services administered by that Office, and for payment of certain subsidies and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The total net Estimate for 1966-67, £35,309,000, shows an increase of £3,544,000 on the original Estimate for 1965-66, which amounted to £31,765,000. Including the Supplementary Estimate provision of £2,045,000, the final total Estimate for 1965-66 was £33,810,000.

As is customary, in order to facilitate Deputies in considering this Estimate which covers such a wide and varied field, some notes on the main activities of my Department have been circulated to them. I trust they will find these notes informative and helpful.

Hear, hear.

I am sure Deputies expect me to say something about farm prices and incomes. I want at the outset to repudiate any suggestion that the Government have been indifferent to the interest of the farming community or that they have been prepared to let every other sector improve its position and do nothing to help the farmer maintain his position. Nothing could be further from the truth. At the time of the Budget the Minister for Finance and myself indicated that it was the policy of the Government to keep the position of farm income under review and should the position in regard to it deteriorate to consider the situation in the light of all the circumstances prevailing. This was reiterated in the statement issued by the Government on the income guide lines laid down by the Labour Court recently. The acceptance by the Government of these guide lines, and likely developments in regard to nonagricultural incomes, coupled with the effects of the exceptionally adverse weather conditions throughout this spring have combined to make a review of the income position of farmers relative to the other sectors of the community an urgent necessity. It had been my intention to have such a review later in the year in any event but it became obvious some time ago that it would have to be undertaken sooner rather than later and I asked my Department to undertake it as a matter of urgency.

On the basis of that review the Government are satisfied that, because of the exceptionally severe weather we experienced this spring, the projected increase in farm income will not now be realised to the extent that we were counting upon and that, because of developments in other sectors, positive measures to improve farm income must now be taken. This will necessarily involve further increases in taxation and an adjustment in the retail price of certain farm products. I will be in a position to announce the specific measures decided upon to improve farm income shortly.

It was unfortunate that one organisation chose this particular moment to initiate a campaign which makes a calm and objective assessment of the position very difficult and can only delay the implementation of possible remedial action. The day has passed when it is necessary for farmers to engage in this form of agitation. There is a genuine desire on the part of the Government to help the farmer improve his position and income. When cases can be put forward in a sensible, practical way, based on the facts and figures, they will be listened to sympathetically and an effort made to meet the situation.

This Government are not prepared to see the position of the agricultural sector of the community deteriorate in relation to any other sector and have on many occasions taken action in pursuance of this policy. This principle was underlined in the statement on farm income by the Minister for Finance in the Budget to which I have referred. It is entirely unreasonable for any farmers' organisation to take up an attitude that I must not talk with any other farmers' organisation about milk prices. I hold the view that I must be equally available to all sections of the farming community.

The pickets which are now on Government Buildings and Leinster House have apparently been placed in support of the viewpoint that I am not entitled to discuss the present position of the dairy farmer with anybody except the ICMSA. I cannot see how this attitude can be justified and I earnestly suggest that it be reconsidered.

In our situation, where over 30 per cent of our population make their living on the land and where a very high proportion of our agricultural produce must be exported to unremunerative markets, there is, of course, a very real limit to what can be done by way of direct support from the Exchequer. Consequently, in the long term, the real breakthrough must come through helping farmers to increase their own income by increased production and productivity. Anyone who preaches any other gospel is only deceiving our farmers and storing up trouble for the future.

It is easy to go around telling farmers that they are ignored and neglected, that everyone else's claim for better income and conditions can apparently be met but not theirs, and so on. It is not so easy to preach the obvious truth that the only sure and lasting way for the farmer to better his position and that of his family is to get more from his holding, to improve his production and his efficiency and that the Government are providing assistance in almost every conceivable way to help him do this; and that the real job of farmers' organisations should be to get these availed of fully and to see how they can be made to work better, to persuade the unwilling, and encourage the pessimistic to get ahead with progressive farm plans.

It is easy and popular to demand more from the Government but not so popular to point out that no matter what the Government may wish to do, there is a very real limit to what is financially possible but that there is the other way in which really spectacular increases can be achieved and indeed are being achieved by many farmers in different parts of the country. We have a comprehensive structure of schemes and services as the disposal of the farmer to help him to get ahead but there is always room for discussion about them. They can always be improved, adjusted or extended. I am always glad to get the views of practical farmers on how they are working out in practice.

In fact, of course, the Government are now providing record sums of money for price support of various products. The estimated amount of such support in 1966-67 is £15.07 million as against £2.73 million in 1956-57. In addition, the Government are now providing £37.4 million on various schemes and services to help farmers increase productivity and to cut unit costs. I was very disappointed to hear recently some suggestions that we should abandon or drastically curtail this form of expenditure, for example, the fertiliser subsidies, in order to give more money by way of direct price support. In my opinion. this would be a reactionary and retrograde step which would in fact greatly reduce the real prospects of farmers steadily improving their income.

Price support is, of course, necessary but of greater basic importance to agriculture is expenditure which enables farmers to farm better, to use their resources to greater effect, to increase productivity. There is a danger that agitation directed only to getting higher prices may develop a kind of dole mentality which would eventually make agriculture subservient to the State. What I want to achieve is a selfreliant, independent and progressive agriculture, fully backed by, but not utterly dependent on, the State.

I should now like to go on to review agricultural developments during the past year.

Despite various difficulties in 1965 the value of gross agricultural output, including livestock changes, increased by about £12 million or five per cent over 1964. Agricultural prices were generally above the level of 1964 when we had the first real rise in the index of agricultural prices for many years. However, other expenses of farmers also increased so that the net rise in farm income was of the order of about £2 million—to be exact from £143.5 million in 1964 to £145.4 million in 1965. This represented an increase in average per caput farm income of about five per cent and some slight improvement in the income position of farmers vis-á-vis industrial workers took place.

I am convinced that the prospects for the agricultural industry were never better. Cattle and sheep stocks are at record levels. Cow numbers are well on their way to reaching the target of 1,700,000 which we had set ouselves in the Second Programme for Economic Expansion. Milk production has been expanding at the rate of 30 million gallons a year—just what is needed to achieve our target.

Beef market prospects are good. The reduction in the waiting period negotiated in the British Trade Agreement, the underpinning of the beef export price and the recent 10/- per cwt. rise in the British guarantee price for cattle are factors which will further strengthen prices. True, the trend in tillage has been a cause of some disquiet. Here, in response to the suggestions of organised farmers I increased the price for wheat of this year's crop by 10/- a barrel, the second increase in two years. The floor price for barley was raised last year. Our wheat price is now well up to the highest European levels, as is also that for sugar beet, and one would have liked to see what the effect on output would have been had the season been normal. As it is, the abnormally late and wet spring has seriously interfered with sowing and acreage is expected to be well down. Livestock are lower in condition than is normal at this time of the year because of shortage of keep and milk production in the first few months of the year, though running above last year's level, is not quite as high as we had anticipated. Those reverses are purely temporary and in the longer term the favourable factors I have mentioned are there and their cumulative effect must certainly be felt.

One of the aims of the Second Programme was to secure improved market outlets for our increased agricultural production and indeed the targets were based on the assumption of improved international marketing arrangements for agricultural products including membership of the EEC. The conclusion in December last of the Free Trade Area Agreement with Britain was therefore of vital importance to us.

As the Agreement has already been discussed in detail by the House, I do not propose to dwell at any length on its terms now. I should like, however, to stress again its importance from the point of view of the farming community in making firm and secure provision for access to the UK market for our agricultural, horticultural and fishery products and in ensuring advantageous price and marketing arrangements for several important products while, at the same time, enabling us to continue to protect the home market for many of them. A solid foundation has been laid for the development of the agricultural industry, and the Agreement has established the conditions which are essential to the achievement of the agricultural targets in the Second Programme.

The Agreement is essentially one of opportunity. To derive the maximum benefit from it, there must be sound farm planning, good management and husbandry, and the adoption of up-to-date techniques on the part of producers, as well as the observance of the highest standards of efficiency in processing, packaging and transport on the part of processors and exporters. If the necessary effort is forthcoming— and I am sure it will—the Agreement should mark the commencement of a new era both for farmers and for the community as a whole.

Full membership of the European Economic Community is, of course, our long-term objective and the establishment of the Free Trade Area will help to prepare for the conditions that would have to be faced on our entering into that wider grouping. Pending entry into the EEC, my Department is keeping in close touch with developments in connection with the establishment of a common agricultural policy for the Community area. We are also doing whatever is possible to improve the outlets for our agricultural produce in the EEC and in other foreign markets. Unfortunately, most of them protect their agriculture highly by one means or another, and the efforts of international organisations have not been very effective hitherto in liberalising trade in agricultural products.

The Kennedy Round of trade negotiations that is being conducted at present in the GATT held out some hopes of improvement in this respect, but so far they have not been realised. Admittedly, the negotiations were held up for a considerable time within the past year by the EEC internal situation. Now that the latter situation has been resolved, it is to be hoped that some better progress will be made, and that agricultural exporting countries such as Ireland will derive some benefit.

Store cattle exports in 1965 were lower than the very high exports in 1964. A number of factors seem to have contributed to this; resistance of British feeders to the high prices in the earlier part of the year, weather conditions and fodder availability in Britain, the credit squeeze there and the building up of herds here, all had an influence. Certainly, the decline in exports was not caused by any decline in our production. Cattle numbers are continuing to expand; following the increases registered in the June, 1965 census the January, 1966 count shows 421,000 more cattle in the country than in January 1965. With heavy stocks of cattle in the country we can expect, even with the setback of the weather in recent months, heavy exports of store cattle this year.

Our exports of fat cattle in 1965 were slightly lower than in 1964 and our carcase beef exports slightly higher. The decline in our exports of boneless manufacturing-type beef to the US which occurred in 1964 persisted in 1965. This was largely due to the better prices obtainable in Britain and the Continent than in the US for manufacturing-type beef. Conditions which would permit a resumption of the valuable US trade now seem to be emerging. Slaughterings of cull cows are showing an upward trend and in America the peak of the cattle cycle seems to have passed resulting in higher cattle and beef prices there. Already this year, that is, from January to April, we have exported 3,300 tons of beef to the United States as compared with 900 tons in the same period in 1965 and 4,200 tons in the whole of that year. Another welcome development has been the resumption of purchases of beef for the US Forces in Europe from suppliers other than domestic US suppliers. We participated in this valuable trade before and I am glad to state that we are now participating in it again.

A sum of £75,000 is included in the Estimate for financing the temporary beef export payments scheme. This amount is intended to cover the cost of the scheme up to 30th June. As and from 1st July, the arrangement under the Free Trade Area Agreement whereby guarantee payments under the British Fatstock Guarantee Scheme will be extended to 25,000 tons per annum of eligible Irish beef comes into operation. As already announced, the Government have decided that the Exchequer should meet the cost of support on quantities of eligible beef exported to Britain over and above this quantity.

As and from 1st July also, the British guarantee payments will be applied to 5,500 tons of Irish carcase lamb and, as in the case of beef, exports of eligible lamb to Britain in excess of this quantity will be covered by payments from the Exchequer.

As the technical arrangements for the transfer to us from Britain of moneys falling due are still being settled, I am not yet in a position to inform the House as to the payments likely to be required from the Irish Exchequer for the support of beef and lamb exports in the current financial year. It is my intention, however, to come later to the House with a Supplementary Estimate in respect of the expenditure that will be involved.

These measures of support for our carcase beef and carcase lamb export trades, together with the unrestricted access to the British market which has been secured under the Free Trade Area Agreement for our store cattle, sheep and lambs, the reduction from three months to two months in the waiting period for these store animals, and the abolition of the differential of 3/4d per lb. in the guarantee payments on store sheep and lambs exported from here to the United Kingdom, provide a solid foundation on which the profitable expansion of cattle and sheep production can be based, and livestock producers can expand output in the confident knowledge that adequate export outlets and satisfactory market prices will be available.

As Deputies are aware, I recently set up a small study group comprising representatives of producers, exporters, An Foras Talúntais, UCD and my Department, to examine all aspects of the store cattle trade and to make any recommendation that might be considered desirable for the future development of the trade. I considered that the coming into operation of the Free Trade Area Agreement was an opportune time to make this examination of a trade which is so vital to the national economy and the country's external trade and I am sure that all concerned with the store cattle trade will await with the greatest interest the report of the group.

The Calved Heifer Subsidy Scheme came into operation on 1st January, 1964 and in the period to 31st March, 1966, nearly 385,000 grants, totalling over £5¾ million had been paid to over 120,000 herd-owners—an average of just over three grants per applicant. We have at long last broken through the hitherto seemingly impenetrable ceiling of around 1,200,000 cows which had persisted for nearly a century. In January, 1966, the number of cows was 1,535,000 as against 1,274,100 in January 1963. There is no doubt that the heifer scheme has been markedly successful in bringing about a rapid increase in the national herd. Such criticisms as I have seen of the cost and efficiency of the scheme do not stand up to rational analysis—indeed some of these criticisms seem to me to be based on the mistaken idea that this country is incapable of maintaining a cow population substantially in excess of 1¼ million head which was for so long a feature of our cattle industry. This attitude is psychologically bad and cannot be justified on any sound assessment of the potential of and prospects for our livestock industry. Our land and buildings and methods of husbandry have all been steadily improving over the years and the international outlook for beef points to an assured outlet for all the cattle we can produce.

As our herds approach the optimum carrying capacity of our farms and with the increasing numbers of calved heifers going towards normal herd replacements, it is to be expected that the volume of participation in the scheme will abate somewhat, although it should be still quite considerable. A slackening in the inflow of new applications is already noticeable, and the estimate of £2,500,000 shows a substantial decrease on the £3,400,000 provided in 1965-66.

On the cattle breeding side one of the main developments during the year was the further substantial increases in artificial insemination. Animals inseminated numbered 920,000, representing 60 per cent of total cow numbers, as compared with 825,000 in 1964 and 700,000 in 1963. A notable feature was the striking advance in the number of insemination from Friesian bulls. Friesian bulls accounted for 55 per cent of the total insemination as compared with 42 per cent in 1964.

During the year further imports of continental stock were made. One bull and four heifers of the Danish Red Breed which were imported from Denmark will be used for trials in consultation with the Irish Short-horn Breeders Association. Forty-six Charolais were obtained from France which include one bull and 38 heifers imported by private breeders who propose to establish pedigree herds. My Department, in conjunction with An Foras Talúntais, is continuing the evaluation of the Charolais as a crossing sire for beef production. Proposals are under consideration by the Jersey Cattle Society to import stock from Denmark but no definite decision can be made because of the foot and mouth position on the continent. Consultations have been taking place with interested parties with a view to integrating the existing milk recording schemes for AI dairy-bull progeny, for pedigree dairy herds and for herds in cow testing associations. An integrated scheme acceptable to all has not so far been evolved but I am hoping for early progress. Meanwhile, arrangements to improve butter fat testing and milk recording in the pedigree dairy herds have been made.

The provision in the Estimate for the support of the milk price through the medium of the grant to An Bord Bainne and the direct payments to creameries in respect of the milk price allowances shows a substantial increase over last year. These items, together with other minor expenses, amount to £12.6 million, an increase of £2.85 million over last year's original estimate and of £1.9 million over last year's final provision: £12.6 million represents about 7d per gallon of creamery milk.

The Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association have been urging that a two-tier price for creamery milk be introduced. They came to see me on Wednesday, 4th May, and I indicated to them that I was prepared to review the income position of the dairy farmer in the light of recent developments and consider what steps could be taken to improve his position. They gave me to understand clearly that they were only interested in and would accept nothing less than their original proposal for a two-tier price system with 4d per gallon extra for the first 7,000 gallons for all suppliers and 2d per gallon extra for all milk over 7,000 gallons. As the average delivery per creamery milk supplier is only about 3,600 gallons per year the suggested level of 7,000 gallons would cover the bulk of the milk supplied to creameries and would cost about £6 million per annum.

Apart from cost, there are other objections to a two-tier system. Firstly, it would involve a disincentive to increased production as a reduced price would take effect as soon as a producer's annual deliveries exceeded 7,000 gallons. Indeed, it would be bad economics to discourage more efficient and more large-scale production, especially when so many of our farms could carry more cows. Secondly, it would be impossible to prevent abuse of the system, that is by producers putting part of their supplies in the names of members of their families so as to evade the limit of 7,000 gallons. Thirdly, and I think this is a very important objection, two-tier price systems for agricultural products in other countries are aimed at restricting or reducing production. I have no wish to stand in the way of increased milk production on an efficient basis, and I do not think the ICMSA has either. These are cogent reasons against the adoption of a two-tier price system and I feel therefore that the advocates of this proposal should have another look at it in the light of these objections. Of course, I should make it clear that there is nothing to prevent any creamery paying its own suppliers on a two-tier or indeed on any other basis it wishes.

It seems to me that a great deal of heat has been generated in this situation which is not really related to the merits of the claims of the dairy farmer for improved conditions. This is unfortunate and doubly so from my point of view. It is not easy to carry out a rational agricultural policy at any time; it is doubly difficult in an emotional atmosphere, with threats of violence and accusations of bad faith. I think everybody concerned should now stand back and take a long hard look at the situation and see exactly where the present course of events is leading us.

Unfortunately, whether we like it or not milk is not an easy product; it is not a seller's market or likely to become one for a long time to come. It will take us all our time to look after the long-term interests of the industry, to plan its development along the right lines, to see that by its carefully planned organisation it can provide the primary producer with the maximum possible return. A reasonable approach on all sides is a first pre-requisite and it is only in a constructive atmosphere that any worthwhile progress in planning and development can take place. Massive State assistance, for instance, for the erection of diversification plants in many areas will be necessary if the maximum return is to be procured for our milk output as a whole and this cannot be undertaken in an atmosphere of strife and agitation.

Let me make another point in this regard. I have mentioned that the average supplier is sending 3,600 gallons of milk to the creamery per year. Another penny per gallon on that amount would bring in an extra £15, whereas, if we could enable him to carry one extra cow it would give him an extra £50 a year. Is it not the duty of all of us to try to get this message across as widely and as clearly as possible?

While on the subject of milk prices, I feel I should make special reference to the Creamery Milk Quality Grading Scheme which has now been just a year in operation. Results to date show that about 42 per cent of all milk delivered to creameries has reached the requisite standard and has earned the special allowance. This performance has exceeded the expectations we had when the scheme was introduced and I am confident that this year a substantially higher percentage of milk will qualify for the allowance, thereby contributing to the further improvement of the quality of our dairy produce exports and at the same time providing a useful financial benefit for milk producers.

As regards the question of reorganisation of the dairying industry, proposals illustrating a possible form of reorganisation were circulated in February last by the Irish Agricultural Organisation Society. The Society has since had some discussions on the subject with industry representatives and when further progress has been made and the preliminary reactions have been studied, I shall be going into the matter more fully with the Society.

The provision in the Estimate for payments to the Pigs and Bacon Commission for the support of bacon exports is £2,350,000; the original provision for 1965-66 was £1.8 million but this was subsequently increased by Supplementary Estimate to £3.1 million. Pig production in this country was at a record level last year, a total of nearly 1,800,000 pigs having been received at bacon factories compared with 1,567,000 in 1964 and 1,554,000 in 1963. So far this year, pig production has been higher than in 1965 but a decrease in the breeding herd shown in the January census suggests that some fall in production may be expected in the summer and autumn months. This is in line with the trend in most pig producing countries in Western Europe where all the indications for some time past have been of a downward turn in the pig cycle. The lower supplies generally should lead to firmer prices on the British bacon market. Bacon prices in Britain have indeed been at a relatively high level since early this year and the general expectation is that a reasonably satisfactory price level will be maintained for some time to come.

Proposals for a scheme of centralised marketing of pigs prepared by the Pigs and Bacon Commission have been under examination in my Department. The scheme, which represents a radical departure from our present arrangements, has the objectives of eliminating the traditional cyclical pattern of high and low levels of production and of bringing about a situation in which all pigs will be marketed on a deadweight basis and will, therefore, be paid for on quality. Any such scheme will affect many persons and interests, including producers themselves and it is necessary to study in detail the full implications of the proposals and to consult with the various interests concerned.

The achievement of higher standards in the quality of bacon exports is a constant preoccupation of my Department and the Pigs and Bacon Commission. Recently, we made a change in grading standards by reducing the upper weight limit of the quality grades and modifying grading measurements; the object is to have a more marketable side of bacon and a higher proportion of the total exports in our best selection.

Factory hygiene and transport arrangements for our bacon are also under constant review and in recent months consultations have been taking place, on my direction, between officers of the Pigs and Bacon Commission and officers of my Department with the object of fully co-ordinating the activities of the two bodies in the field of quality control. One of the problems in the bacon industry has been the age and obsolescence of buildings, plant and equipment in a number of our factories. We have been seeking to rectify this over the last five years by our scheme of grants for the modernisation of bacon factories under which grants of 50 per cent are provided for a wide range of improvement works. A great deal of good work has been done and most of our factories have either completed improvement programmes, some of them on a very large scale, or are in the course of doing so. The few factories which have not participated in the scheme are those in respect of which the proprietors are actively considering, under pressure from my Department, building new factories to replace their existing premises.

As regards the poultry industry the expansion in broiler production continued during 1965, although not as rapidly as in the two previous years. The numbers produced were in the region of 7½ million broilers, being an increase of 1,000,000 broilers over 1964. Top class strains of broiler stock have been imported by commercial interests over the last few years and some of the best strains in the world are now available to producers here. Exports of day-old chicks had to be suspended for the first five months of 1965 because of the fowl pest situation.

One of the problems which we are trying to overcome at present is the tendency for the acreage devoted to certain tillage crops to fall. Despite the increase of 3/- per barrel for wheat in 1965, and the improved marketing conditions which I then introduced, involving the use of the Hagberg falling number test, the acreage under wheat in 1965 fell by 32,000 acres to 182,000 acres. This decline was a matter of concern and in an effort to improve the position the Government decided to increase the price for millable wheat of the 1966 crop by 10/- per barrel over the 1965 price. Unfortunately, owing to the exceptionally high rainfall in recent months, the hope that the increased price would arrest the declining trend in acreage is unlikely to be realised and it now appears that the acreage this year will be lower than in 1965.

Our efforts are directed towards growing not only more but better wheat. As a result of my Department's seed breeding work, there is now available an ample supply of high-class home-grown Irish seed wheat of suitable varieties. By using these and by good husbandry, I have no doubt that, given normal weather conditions, we can produce the greater part of our requirements of millable wheat.

The floor price for feeding barley was increased last year by 5/- per barrel to 45/- or £22 10s. per ton delivered. This price is being maintained for 1966. We did not achieve in 1965 the increases in acreage which I was hoping for but we did succeed in maintaining the 1964 acreage which was the largest on record. Moreover, there was a useful improvement in yield. Barley sowing also has been hampered by the weather but no substantial change in acreage is expected. I think that at the price of 45/- a barrel the crop should show a good profit. In fixing the price, obviously we must keep in mind the implications for the pig feeder who uses a high proportion of the crop.

For Subhead K.12—Bovine Tuberculosis Eradication Scheme—we will need a provision of £1,882,000. With estimated receipts of £400,000 this means a net expenditure of £1,482,000, a big reduction on the net provision voted last year. I would expect that, at present cost levels and with the present negligible incidence of the disease, the expenditure should stabilise itself at about this figure for a few years. On the other hand, if we can reduce the incidence still further, the cost will show a reduction.

The whole country has been attested since October, 1965 at a net cost to the State of over £39¾ million up to 31st March, 1966. A total of £35½ million was spent on the purchase of reactors, which produced a salvage value of £17½ million leaving the net expenditure on reactors at £18 million or an average loss to the Exchequer of £21. 10. 0. per animal. The average loss in 1965-66 has risen to about £29 per animal. From now on there is very little excuse for an outbreak of bovine tuberculosis in a herd. In most cases it can be prevented by observance of elementary hygiene and by care in the purchase of animals.

I am happy to say that the Brucellosis Eradication Programme has now begun in County Donegal and will be extended to a number of other counties during the year. As the House is aware, the Diseases of Animals Act, 1966 gave me the necessary powers for this most important task. We do not expect that the proportion of reactors to the brucellosis test will be anything as high as in the Bovine Tuberculosis Scheme. We also have the experience gained in the latter scheme to help us and have now an efficient nation-wide organisation of the district veterinary offices.

The market value of reactors taken up under this scheme will be paid. In addition to the eradication programme now starting in the north-west, a Calf-hood Vaccination Scheme has been operated since 1st June, 1965 in eleven counties of the south and east. These counties were selected for the scheme because an intensive survey in 1964 had shown that they contain a higher proportion of reactor milk herds than any other area.

However, much of this high rate of reaction is due most probably to the vaccination of adult animals with Strain 19 anti-abortion vaccine. An animal vaccinated with this after a certain age will give the same reaction to the brucellosis test as if it had the disease. This unfortunate result does not happen when the animal is vaccinated when very young. I am advised that the safe limit is six months. Furthermore, a heifer calf when vaccinated at this early age will develop a high resistance to the disease which will last throughout most of her life. The vaccination programmes will, we expect, have reduced very considerably the number of reactors in the eleven high incidence counties by the time we come to initiate the full eradication programme there.

For the eradication programme in the north-west and the vaccination scheme in the south and east, we require a provision this year of £394,000 gross, less an expected salvage revenue of £66,000. The estimated net expenditure is, therefore, £328,000.

There was a most gratifying response to the 1965 Warble Fly Eradication Scheme, almost 4½ million cattle being treated. Checks on the incidence of warbles in animals passing through marts and export points confirm that the dressings have been highly effective. There is every reason to believe that an all-out drive this year in which every herd-owner participated would lead to the virtual extinction of the pest. The scheme will, of course, be continued this year with such modifications as may be found to be necessary in the light of the experience gained last year. One of the main changes proposed is that it should be compulsory on herd-owners to have all their cattle dressed. Consultations are at present proceeding with the interests concerned and the arrangements for 1966 will be announced shortly.

Regarding sheep scab we have made some progress towards the achievement of a 100 per cent dipping programme which, if carried out over a period of two or three years, will completely eradicate the disease from the country's sheep flocks. All the county councils are now operating sheep dipping regulations and the problem of providing public sheep dipping baths in areas where they are needed is being vigorously tackled. My Department now provides a subsidy of 50 per cent of the cost of the provision by county councils of public dipping facilities. Grants are also provided under the Farm Buildings Scheme for sheep owners who wish to provide dipping and handling facilities on their own lands.

The statutory provisions in regard to the dipping of sheep were amended during 1965 to meet the needs of an eradication campaign. The main change effected was to prescribe two compulsory dippings each year instead of one. The prescribed dipping periods, namely, 1st July to 7th August and 1st October to 30th November, were settled in consultation with the various interests concerned. There have been representations that these periods are not suitable for one reason or another and the question of altering or extending them is at present being examined by my Department. The main consideration in fixing prescribed periods is, of course, to ensure that sheep are dipped at the time which is most advantageous from the point of view of dealing effectively with the scab mite. I appreciate that whatever periods are fixed will be bound to prove inconvenient for some sheep owners but I am confident that if all owners cooperate, any such inconvenience will last for only a season or two, and will be rewarded by the removal of a very real threat to our sheep industry.

An important feature of the plans for the reduction of the economic losses caused by animal disease is the provision of regional veterinary laboratories to supplement the service at present being given from the Veterinary Research Laboratory at Abbotstown. I am pleased to say that the construction of the new regional laboratory at Sligo is well advanced and the laboratory will become fully operative within the next few months. Sites have been obtained for similar facilities at Cork, Limerick and Athlone and plans for the provision of laboratories at those centres are being pushed ahead as quickly as possible.

The Veterinary Division of my Department is also pursuing plans aimed at the reduction of the economic losses in livestock caused by such conditions as scours in calves and young pigs, fluke and mastitis.

In August last I announced a very important improvement in the terms for Land Project grants. Up to then, the maximum grant allowable had been £30 per acre. As from 18th August, 1965, the maximum grant was raised to £50 per acre in the western and north-western counties of Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan, Longford, Leitrim, Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon, Galway, Clare, Kerry and part of West Cork and to £45 per acre in the remainder of the country for schemes which had been approved on or after 1st April, 1965, and on which final payment of the grant had not been made by 18th August, 1965. Following the 1966 annual review with the NFA, it was decided to extend the application of these increases to schemes approved prior to 1st April, 1965, on which final payment of grant had not been made by 18th August, 1965.

It was decided also, as an exceptional measure, that in the case of schemes which had been approved prior to 1st April, 1964, and on which work had not been undertaken, the costings on which the grants offered had been based would be revised on completion of the work, in line with costs obtaining in March, 1966. The grant payable would be two-thirds of the new estimated cost subject to the maximum of £50 per acre in the western area and £45 in the remainder of the country. These increases must be a great help to farmers who have undertaken difficult and costly improvement works and I expect that the demand for the grant facilities will continue at a high level. The number of applications received during the year was 21,800, the second highest figure of the past five years.

I mentioned last year that the improved facilities introduced in July, 1964 under the Fertiliser Credit Scheme had already resulted in a welcome increase in the demand from farmers for these credit facilities. This upward swing continued in the past year during which the number of applications received was 2,216 compared with 1,584 in 1964-65.

The scheme of grant aid for the fencing of mountain grazings and the scheme aimed at increased "keep" at critical periods from mountain grazings afford a worthwhile stimulus towards improved production and stocking rates on mountain lands.

As Deputies will be aware, a special effort was made during 1965 to secure increased usage of ground limestone, which for some years had been running at a level of slightly over one million tons per annum. The various publicity and promotional measures undertaken met with a reasonable measure of success. Deliveries in the year ended 31st March, 1966 are estimated to be approximately 1,250,000 tons, a record figure. An even better result would undoubtedly have been secured were it not for the prolonged wet weather which set in from November, 1965. Efforts to secure increased use of lime will be continued during the summer of 1966 and I am glad to say that the producers of ground limestone are also taking steps to encourage summer liming.

The indications are that fertiliser consumption in the current fertiliser year is not likely to be above that of last year. Fertiliser consumption has been adversely affected by a number of factors, including the prolonged wet weather from November onwards, and the reduction in the acreage under certain crops which are normally well fertilised. Nevertheless, the conclusion is inescapable that many of our farmers are not yet fully alive to the fact that it pays to fertilise adequately. Since January 1966 special efforts have been made by way of publicity and through the advisory services to encourage greater use of fertilisers, particularly on grassland where the scope for increasing carrying capacity is immense. These efforts will be continued. The rates of subsidy on phosphatic and potassic fertilisers are being maintained despite the many and increasing calls on State funds. I should like to say at this point that no farmer need leave his land under-fertilised for lack of credit. There are ample facilities available to him. For one thing he can use the Department's Fertiliser Credit Scheme under which the needed lime and fertilisers as indicated by soil test, can be supplied and spread, the cost being charged as to 90 per cent by way of addition to his annuity. Alternatively, he may avail himself of the facilities offered by the Agricultural Credit Corporation.

The Farm Buildings Scheme is being availed of to an ever increasing extent. Grant expenditure in 1965-66 amounted to about £1.8 million compared with £1.7 million in 1964-65 and £1.2 million in 1963-64. I am providing for £2.02 million in 1966-67 to keep pace with this desirable growth. As I announced during the Budget debate, further improvements in the scheme are being introduced. Extended facilities will be available to the small farmer who wishes to engage in new or expanded pig production. The qualifying conditions in respect of grants for loose houses for cows have been eased, and, as I have already announced, the special rate of grants for sheep dipping and handling facilities under the scheme is being continued for a further two years.

With regard to education, I mentioned when presenting the Supplementary Estimate for Agriculture for the year 1965-66 that the Faculty of General Agriculture of University College, Dublin, has been expanding in the past few years and that additional State aid is needed to bring the income of the Faculty into line with its higher level of expenditure due to the additional costs involved in catering for greater numbers of students and in improving the facilities for specialisation of studies in particular branches of agricultural science. In the circumstances, provision is made in Subhead D.9 of the Estimate for a grant of £200,000 to University College, Dublin, in respect of the Faculty of General Agriculture. That amount is approximately £21,000 greater than the corresponding provision made in the revised Estimate for 1965-66. Subhead D.9 also makes provision for an increase in the amount of the additional grant to University College, Cork, in respect of its Faculty of Dairy Science. The College authorities are arranging to expand the scope and range of the dairy science courses so as to provide specialised tuition in the scientific principles and processing techniques involved in the manufacture of dairy products of all kinds. As a first step, the College buildings occupied by the Dairy Science Faculty are to be reconstructed and enlarged. A provision of £70,000 is made in the subhead towards meeting the building and other costs likely to arise in the current year.

Expenditure on grants to county committees of agriculture has increased from £239,577 in 1955-56 to an estimated £649,500 for 1966-67. In the same period, the number of agricultural advisers has increased from 152 to 302. Since the introduction in October, 1963, of special State aid to committees in the western areas, under which we contribute 75 per cent of the salaries of advisory officers, the number of agricultural advisers in these areas has increased from 100 in October, 1963, to 156 at present. We hope that the target figure of one agricultural adviser for every 800 holdings over ten acres will be achieved before the end of the year, and that the farmers in the area will take every advantage of these services.

As Deputies are aware, my Department, a few years ago, introduced a scheme of grants towards the purchase of forage harvesters with a view to enabling farmers to conserve as silage increased quantities of grass for winter feed. I am glad to say that this scheme has proved very successful. A recent survey on silage making has shown that there has been a marked increase—approximately 50 per cent —in the amount of silage made in the past two years. Approximately £60,000 was paid out in these grants in each of the last two years and it is expected that there will still be a greater demand for them in the coming year.

The provision in the Estimate for An Foras Talúntais is £1,386,000. This is made up of a grant of £1,286,000 towards the non-capital expenses of the Institute, representing an increase of 12½ per cent on the basic grant of £1,143,000 voted for 1965-66—which was itself 12½ per cent more than the 1964-65 grant—and a grant of £100,000 for capital purposes. The payment of these very substantial sums to the institute from public moneys is evidence of the importance which the Government attach to the Institute's work especially in providing solutions for those practical problems of agriculture which inhibit efficiency and productivity.

My Department is continuing to give special attention to the problems to be faced in promoting agricultural development in the 12 western counties.

An intensive educational and advisory programme has been in operation in the 12 pilot areas since they were set up just over a year ago. The farmers in these areas are being given every possible encouragement to make full use of the wide variety of aids, incentives, and facilities provided for them in order to increase their output. I am very glad to say that even in the short time since this programme was launched the results have been most encouraging, particularly in such matters as land drainage, the erection of new farm buildings, increase in cow numbers and improved stocking rates generally. Probably the most significant development of all, however, has been the widespread organisation in all areas of local neighbourhood groups who have shown a commendable readiness to come together to undertake joint activities like drainage works, bulk purchase of supplies, group water schemes and so on. This willingness to tackle problems through community action is indeed the most striking feature of the Pilot Area Scheme and certainly gives me every confidence that the people of the West can, given the proper encouragement, and with the help available from the various branches of the State and local advisory services, do a great deal to improve their incomes through their own efforts.

As Deputies know, the Pilot Area Scheme is not an end in itself. Its purpose is to study the problems as they exist, to find the best solutions for them and ultimately to serve as a guide in the preparation of plans for the West as a whole which will be based on the lessons learned in the pilot areas and on the methods and techniques found most effective in those areas. Whilst, therefore, I am encouraged by the progress already made, I do not wish to disguise the fact that there are many serious problems facing us in the West for which there are no easy solutions. For example, the high proportion of farmers in the West to be found in the older age groups increases the difficulty of advisers in bringing about the adoption of up-to-date techniques and practices. Similarly, fragmentation of holdings, and other land structural conditions are limiting factors in increasing output. These and all other relevant problems are receiving intensive study under the direction of my Department's western regional officer.

The pilot areas are intended to be typical as far as possible of conditions in the various counties. In Glencolumb-kille, we have gone a stage further in selecting a region where the physical and geographical conditions are rather more extreme, and the special assistance being provided in this area is designed to show how far it is possible to develop agricultural viability under conditions of this kind. In selecting Glencolumbkille for this experiment I was very conscious of the vigorous community leadership in the area and of the existence of an active co-operative society. Indeed, the society has been made the focal point of the whole project and I am satisfied that by channelling all the aids and facilities through the society the experiment can be conducted with maximum benefit all round.

The Western Agricultural Consultative Council has met on a number of occasions during the past eight months. I am very glad to have this opportunity to thank the members of the council for their constructive contributions at the meetings. All these have been noted and will be carefully examined by me in the context of new measures to assist agricultural development in the West. In the meantime, various proposals for utilisation of the £100,000 provided in the Budget are being studied and our expenditure plans will be announced in due course.

Before concluding, I would like to refer briefly to the provision in the Estimate for the World Food Programme. In 1962 the Government pledged a sum of £300,000 to the World Food Programme for the period 1963-65. This sum was voted as a grant-in-aid, contributions being made over the three year period as the occasion arose. The Programme is now being continued and expanded for a further three years from 1st January, 1966. The Government have decided to pledge £450,000 to the expanded Programme for this period to be paid in three equal annual instalments and I am asking the Dáil to vote the first instalment of £150,000 in this financial year. Of this amount, approximately two-thirds will be donated in the form of commodities and the balance in cash. This Programme is intended to utilise surplus food for the economic development of the poorer countries, and there is no need to urge on Deputies how important it is for this country to play its due part in international endeavours of this kind. While on this subject of assistance to poorer countries, perhaps I should remind Deputies that we have recently established in this country a Freedom from Hunger Council known as Gorta which is representative of all sections of the community and which is undertaking the task of channelling voluntary aid from the people of this country to those less fortunate countries where hunger and malnutrition are still grave problems. The political Parties are associated with Gorta and I know that Deputies will help to forward its work in any way they can.

The large sum of money which I am asking the House to vote in the face of a tight budgetary situation is proof of the Government's determination to encourage increased and efficient agricultural production and to ensure for farmers a reasonable return for their labours.

I move:

That the Vote be referred back for reconsideration.

If the Minister had accepted some months ago, as everybody was pressing him to accept, that farm incomes would not reach the figure which he was estimating, he would not have had many of the problems he has around him now and would not have had to get up and whinge as he has been whinging now about those problems. The fact that he continually refused to accept the statements from this side of the House and outside the House that there was no chance of farmers reaching the estimated £5 million increase in incomes which the Government had estimated is largely one of the reasons why the Minister is faced with that problem. Faced with it now, however, it is at least something that at long last he has come to admit the situation is one that requires amendment.

The Minister himself contributed in no small degree to the bitterness that exists at present by his discreditable reference to decent farmers as "carrying on a circus" and by being a member of a Government who for the first time ever objected to a picket on Government Buildings. As every Deputy can remember, quite recently there was a strike of maintenance men and there was a picket outside in Merrion Street at that time. There was no objection whatever.

I never objected to the ICMSA picket on Government Buildings.

Your Government arrested and charged them for it.

It was a mistake and we admitted it.

It was a very stupid mistake——

All right.

——just as it is a mistake to use the Offences against the State Act in respect of this type of protest. The Offences Against the State Act was enacted, and properly so, in 1939 for the purpose of ensuring that Deputies and Senators would be able to attend the Oireachtas and would not be prevented by force from carrying out their duties. That was the intention of that Act. It was never intended to deal with the type of protest for which it has been used in the past few weeks. The Government should amend the form of the wording in the 1939 Act so as to ensure that it is restricted to people who are endeavouring to prevent the Oireachtas operating. There would be unanimous agreement that anything necessary to ensure that the Oireachtas could operate properly would be put through, but to use the Offences against the State Act against decent farmers in this way is using a sledgehammer to crack a nut and is part of the reason the Minister is in the difficulty about which he has been whinging this afternoon.

Be that as it may, there is one thing which I was very disappointed not to read in the Minister's speech, and not to hear, and it was very difficult to hear him. It did not affect me in the slightest because I had a copy of the speech but it must have been rather galling for the other Members of the House who had not got a copy to listen to him. Every Member of the House who is interested in agriculture will. I am sure, express the hope—I am disappointed the Minister did not express it—that, no matter how much feeling there may be at present, there will be an end to divisions between one agricultural association and another. A division between any two agricultural associations can only weaken the farmers' chances, can only weaken the prospects of agriculture getting full recognition. It would not help in the slightest for anyone to enter, on one side or the other, into the rights or wrongs of their divisions, but I think it should be expressed that we all hope to see those divisions ended as soon as possible and to see harmony, cooperation and unity to ensure that the just deserts of those who are engaged in agriculture in rural Ireland will be advocated and will succeed. Certainly there never was a case in which the old adage "United we stand, divided we fall" was more truthful.

We must acknowledge—and I do not think the Minister shows signs of that acknowledgment when he refers to the economics of large-scale production on page 12 of his manuscript speech— that, while it would be a greater economic proposition to have a series of huge 1,000-acre and 2,000-acre farms engaged in large-scale production, that is not what we want in Ireland. We want to see as many families as possible on the land getting their living from the land. We must realise and accept that there is a social problem there that transcends the economic problem and that if we do not accept that there is that problem for the small farmer, then we are not going to be able to attain the social objectives which, quite frankly, I think the Minister has as well as we have on this side of the House.

It is very tempting to talk entirely and to think entirely of economics in the production of milk and, of course, milk must be considered the basis of all agricultural policy. I have no doubt that with bigger economic units it would be more economically produced. However, we have got to accept that the social policy we want to put into effect, of having the small farmers remain on the land in the greatest prosperity which we can get for them, must transcend the economic aspect of large-scale production. I regret that the Minister in his speech gives the hint that he does not accept that social view.

Without discussing the details of a two-tier price, which was really more indicative of what was felt, in that there must be some separate solution for the small farmer, I think there are objections to it, and the Minister has indicated some of them; there are also benefits to be got from it. However, if the small farmer is to stay in dairying, there must be a new approach by virtue of which he will be able to have his costs cut, as we suggested in our motion on the complete derating of all agricultural holdings under £25, or there has to be some method of ensuring that the price he is getting is larger comparatively than the price the bigger, more economic large-scale producer receives. It has to be considered as the price of the social policy we want, and cannot be considered at all only from an economic aspect.

I do not know when the Minister expects to make the announcement to which he refers. I would have thought that on his Estimate today was the proper time for it. Maybe he felt it was better to mention it today and make it some other time. I imagine, if I know the Minister, it will come before the failure of the other job which he has undertaken becomes apparent on 2nd June. I imagine he will make his announcement before that, but I think it would have been proper to make it today. It could have been made today if the Minister had been listening to the cases that were being made throughout the country.

Maybe I wanted to hear the Deputy.

The Minister could have foregone that very great pleasure for the sake of avoiding the troubles with which he is now surrounded. Everybody knows that at the end of last autumn, because of the price of cattle at that time, farmers were carrying over more stock. The heifer scheme had meant that there were more year-old cattle in the country. I hand that to the Minister and his Government, but I blame them very much indeed for having failed to make any adequate provision to ensure that they could be properly carried over the winter in the circumstances. We have a succession of things, each of which fell heavily on the farmers and must have been apparent to the Minister himself. The effect of the credit squeeze was that farmers, notwithstanding what the Minister says about credit now, had not got the money to put artificials on their land in the early part of this year. The result of that was that, when we got the harsh weather later on, stock were never so hungry as they were this spring, never so hungry in living memory. Because of weakness, through lack of fodder, cows when they went down to calve never got up again. It was essential in the difficult and trying times farmers had to face in March that they should have got some consideration from the Minister for Agriculture then rather than have to wait until now in the month of May. I suspect they would not have got any consideration at all, were it not for certain extraneous circumstances.

What does the Minister propose to do? He has not given us any indication that he appreciates the real difficulties of many farmers. Surely the Minister is hearing, as I am hearing, of farmers who have had their stock reduced, in one case I know, by half as a result of lack of fodder, lack of any possibility of proper or even adequate feeding. In consequence, the losses that have ensued this year will wipe away the increase in cattle numbers to which the Minister referred. I do not think anyone will find anywhere throughout the Minister's speech any positive approach towards assisting, other than the vague statement that measures must now be taken. Surely it should have been possible for the Minister as Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries to have foreseen that assistance was going to be necessary and to have made certain that measures were ready rather than consider them only now at the last minute.

In relation to small farmers, and their position, some price increase will have to be given. I agree with the Minister this is not a long-term solution. The long-term solution is increased carrying, something the Land Project was designed to bring about, and has brought about. A long-term solution on the lines the Minister has indicated will not meet the present difficulties and the present difficulties are much more real than has been suggested in the speech to which we have just listened. Nothing short of a price increase will cover the 1966 problem with any prospect of success for those concerned in being able to get over the disaster they have suffered this year.

The cataclysmic cycle has been exacerbated to a great extent by the behaviour of the Minister in relation to payment to those entitled to receive payment under the Minister's schemes of grants and other measures. The delay in the payment for reactors is widespread. It is disgraceful. It is ridiculous to expect a farmer to wait two or three months for payment after it has been agreed that a reactor has gone down and must be removed from the herd. The effect of that delay has been to cause unrest, the unrest about which the Minister is now whinging. The delay in the payment of farm building grants is acknowledged even by the Minister himself. The only way in which one can get grants that are passed for some time is by putting down questions or making representations to the Department. That should not be necessary. It is a byword that the Farm Buildings Section of the Department is the worst of all. I do not suppose the Minister can succeed where his colleague, the Minister for Finance has failed in providing the finance necessary for the carrying on of the State, but he ought at least to ensure that he gets a fair share for agriculture and that the moneys involved are paid reasonably promptly.

We had discussions earlier this year on the Free Trade Agreement. I do not think anybody, except the Minister, believes that that Agreement is anything more than a concession in the case of carcase lamb. Apart from that, everything in the Agreement is a restatement of what was there already. It is worthwhile restating because what was there already was worthwhile, but it is quite illusory for the Minister to suggest that the effect of the Agreement is to open up a new avenue of opportunity. In the opinion of the President of the British Farmers Union, Mr. Woolley, it restates, and only restates, the existing position. Unfortunately the Minister raised hopes, hopes that will never be satisfied. That was a great mistake.

I was interested in the Minister's reference to the Charolais. I recollect a remark by the Minister for Health at an earlier date. I still cannot understand why the co-operative creameries in the south which were anxious to import Charolais under the scheme, were not permitted to do so by the Minister. I can see no reason why people who had no connection at all with this country were given pride of place as against a big creamery in the south which applied for the concession at the time.

The Minister referred to educational facilities; yet I notice that the veterinary subhead is one of the few that shows a reduction. From the tenor of his speech, I thought the Minister was about to adopt and launch a large and substantial scheme for further agricultural veterinary development. By describing 1966 as a health year, it would imply that he had the intention of so doing.

Apparently, the payment by the British Government for beef exports under the Free Trade Agreement will not come to hand this year and the Minister has to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to meet the amount——

The extra, over and above.

I understood the Minister to say it was not coming to hand at all. Has the Minister not got any indication of the amount likely to be involved in it? Last January, the reduction in in-calf heifers was pretty substantial. A drop from 312,000 to 270,000 represents a fairly substantial decrease—I think some 40 per cent decrease. It would indicate that perhaps the existing heifer scheme has ceased to have any further appeal and should now be changed. I think it would be true to say that the smaller farmers have already largely reached the point at which they cannot carry anything more and therefore the scheme has no further attraction for them. Perhaps that might be the explanation of the drop in the beginning of the year.

One wonders where the Government feel agriculture can go. One gets the impression that they have no firm plan for development at present—set sights, yes, if you like, to 1970, but, at the present time, it is the old story of live horse and you will get grass. It is not enough for farmers now. The Minister does not seem to have any appreciation of the immediate necessity to surmount what is perhaps one of the most difficult farming years in the past two decades. In the table attached the review of incomes, there does no seem to be appreciation of the changes that have taken place even in the first few months of this year.

The reduction in the wheat acreage of last year will very much be accentuated this year. The weather was so appalling in the grain areas that it has been impossible until very recently, to put machinery into land to get the work done that should be done. Even yet, the ground has not so dried up as to be conducive to a reasonable harvest. The increase in the price of wheat will not make any mark at all in arresting the decline in the wheat acreage. The feeding barley floor, which was changed last year, will not be sufficient to ensure an adequacy of feeding grain this year. Not all of that is the Minister's fault. We have had to face one of the worst springs for a long time but the decline was there already, and it was the duty of the Government to take measures to arrest it before it became accentuated and was made very much worse by unfavourable weather conditions. There is no indication of any positive plan in that regard.

I wondered if the Minister would indicate his intention of endeavouring to make farming more factory-wise which is how I would describe bringing the work into the farmyard as much as possible. An announcement made a few days ago by the Revenue Commissioners about intensive agriculture will not encourage people to do so. If the Revenue Acts will now be utilised to hit at that type of intensification, it will not be conducive towards the approach that is necessary. The Minister should have ensured that it would not be done and that the law would be amended in the Finance Bill, if necessary, in that respect. So far as I can see, there does not seem to be any indication of a move in that direction, although it has been strongly advocated outside this House. In all the circumstances, it is difficult to see what the Minister has in mind except that he thinks everything is going along beautifully and he has no need therefore to urge any more positive measures. Nobody believes that except himself.

My first obligation is to express thanks to the Minister for acceding to my oft-repeated request to provide butter subsidies for the islanders. That is a great advantage to the island people and I thank him for it. The provisions made are very fair and reasonable and can be amended from time to time as prices fluctuate. It is something that should have been done many years ago but better late than never. I express my appreciation of the adjustments made.

There does not seem to be any great enlightenment for the farming community in the Minister's statement to the House this evening. We are to be kept guessing as to what the Minister's actual proposals will be. His statement indicates that he will be in a position to announce specific measures decided upon to improve farm incomes shortly. Surely the Minister knew this Estimate was coming up? He knew it months ago. It is not so many weeks since he had an opportunity or reviewing agricultural policy at the time of the introduction of the Supplementary Estimate in the last week of March. To be fair to the House, whatever proposals the Minister has in mind should have been submitted to the House today so that Deputies participating in this debate would have an opportunity of either commending or criticising them as they saw fit. It is unfair for the Minister to withhold from the House at the introduction of the Estimate the proposals he intends to make shortly.

It is not easy to define the term "shortly" but I think I could offer a reasonable definition, arising from the position that obtains at present, that "shortly" will be not more than ten days, when the Presidential election is only around the corner on 1st June. The Minister may have some excuse for keeping this special announcement until, say, two days or three before the election. That is possibly why he has not given us the information today.

Deputy Sweetman referred earlier to the Minister's comments on those who have picketed this House and Government Buildings for some time. The Minister referred to them as a "circus party". I read that description and I was surprised that the Minister should use this expression but I thought it was a slip of the tongue to which we are all subject occasionally. The Minister's statement here today does not bear out that theory. At present we have strikes by several sections of the community; we never had so much unrest in the country. We have different groups and organisations banding themselves together endeavouring to get advancement and increases in incomes and better conditions of employment. I respectfully suggest that the farming community have just as much right to make representations for an increase in their income as any other section. Mark you, the Minister has not said to any other group agitating for increases that they have not a right to do so. Granted he has taken steps which legislation enacted by this House empowered him to take to deal with some pickets previously at Leinster House. I maintain the farmcommunity have just as much right to come along to the Department and focus public attention on their claim, which I believe, so far as the majority of farmers are concerned, is a just one.

Everyone is seeking increased income at present and self-employed workers just as much as any salaried workers are entitled to an adjustment of income. "The day has passed when it is necessary for farmers to engage in this form of agitation". Why not say that to all other sections and just tell them to go back to work, that the day has passed for this form of agitation? If the Government are to apply this maxim to the agitation of the milk suppliers, it could equally apply to several other sections, some of whom may not have as justifiable a claim. By and large, it is regretted that the Minister has become unduly worried about this peaceful agitation.

"There is a danger" the Minister says in his statement "that agitation directed only to getting higher prices may develop a kind of dole mentality which would eventually make agriculture subservient to the State". The Minister has emphasised—possibly rightly; it has been emphasised down the years by the Department—the need for increased production. He has told us that instead of farmers endeavouring to get increases of £60 a year on average by an extra 4d a gallon on milk, if it were granted, they should keep one more cow and add £50 to their income. The Minister may be too far removed from the majority of farmers, living as he does here in this populous metropolitan district, to be conversant with the position that obtains on many of our farms which is that there is no room for the extra cow. Some farms are now carrying more stock than they are capable of carrying and the extra cow cannot be accommodated.

Would it not be just as reasonable to say to public employees and employees of State-sponsored bodies or private enterprise employees: "Go away and increase your production. Instead of looking for increased wages, instead of working 40 hours a week, work 48 or 50 or even 60 hours a week and you will earn additional money. That can all go to increase production without imposing obligations on financial resources that are not available." That could apply to all sections but the peculiar thing is that in this particular case the Government are applying it only to the farming community. The bigger farmers have many advantages such as high-yielding land, large acreages and equipment to work their farms in the most modern way. A large number of the remainder of the farming community undoubtedly have a substantial case for an improvement such as they are demanding, even though some of it may be given in some other form than by way of an increase in the price of milk, which would give them an increased income in some proportion to the increases which have been given to other sections.

I repeat a statement which I made here on three or four occasions within the past four months. We have heard nothing in this House of the difficulties of meeting our obligations to persons in the higher income group. They were given £10 million recently. That is the calculation of the Minister for Transport and Power. In my view, we were not in a position to give those persons that money, our resources did not warrant the payment of such increases. The Government must not have realised the position that obtained. Subsequent to the granting of these substantial increases, other representations and agitations for increases had to be delayed or deferred or hindered in every possible way. The present demand is a typical case.

I have often referred in this Chamber to the desirability of dividing the country into zones so far as agricultural policy is concerned. Agricultural conditions vary greatly from place to place. Small though the country may be, relatively speaking, agricultural conditions in the area contiguous to Dublin and the midlands are far different from those obtaining in the West or in some parts of the South. Even within county Cork, there is a wide variation in agricultural conditions. It is difficult for any Minister or Government to apply general policy so far as agricultural interests are concerned because of these variations.

In connection with the agitation with which we are concerned at the present time, the Minister has given us some facts. The average quantity of milk supplied by farmers to the creameries is 3,600 gallons and the number of suppliers is 108,600. If the suppliers were to get £1 a week by way of increase in income, it would mean an expenditure of £5,647,200 which is the amount being demanded by other manual workers at the present time.

While I appreciate that small increases that have come from the Exchequer given to a significantly large number of people are bound to be costly, at the same time we must have justice and fair play. If we were able to find the £10 million for the status increases given within the past 12 months, we should be able to find the additional moneys required to give these self-employed persons a reasonable adjustment in their incomes.

I have mentioned to the Minister that independent statistics have become available to him so far as parts of the country are concerned by means of the pilot schemes which were established within the past few years. The Minister has had the opportunity of studying the reports from the 12 western counties indicating the rate of income of the farmers operating in the various pilot areas. These figures have been produced by public employees of the Minister's Department in conjunction with the agricultural instructors appointed by the committees of agriculture. One can safely assert that the figures are a reasonable approximation of the incomes in all cases.

As I already mentioned in the House some weeks ago, the position in the Cork pilot area is that the gross family income of the 375 farmers in the district works out, according to the statistics supplied to the committee of agriculture by their officers a few months back, at less than £10 a week. In a percentage of cases with an acreage of 30 acres of land, which on adjustment was deemed to be equivalent to 20 acres of reasonably good land, the income amounted to not more than £6 per week which, as everybody knows, is an entirely inadequate income. In fact, of the small percentage of bigger farmers comprised in that pilot area, none of them, according to the report, exceeded £1,000 family income per annum.

As a person who knows the district well, who was born there and is conversant with the position, I can assert that these farmers have modernised their holdings as much as it is possible for them to do so. They have availed of modern equipment to work their holdings. They have improved as far as possible the productivity of the land by the application of fertilisers, sand seaweed and any other fertiliser that would be helpful or that was recommended by the agricultural advisory services.

That report brought home to me forcibly the need for an overall appraisal of the incomes of the farming community and for some kind of discussions, possibly between the Department of Agriculture and the Department of Finance, as to an incomes policy so far as the agricultural community is concerned.

The percentage of farmers who, according to the available statistics, would be deemed to be working at a most uneconomic level from the point of view of income would possibly be something more than 60 per cent, so that it could be asserted that possibly not more than one in three farmers enjoy holdings where reasonable or in some cases an exceptionally good, livelihood and income can be earned at the prices at present obtaining.

During the past few years, but particularly within the past few weeks, the Minister has been faced forcibly and violently with the problem of adjustments in farmers' incomes, particularly so far as an adjustment in milk prices is concerned. Before commenting further on that, I want to say that I am well aware of the advisability of modernising the system of milk transportation which at present obtains in some districts. I know that it is costly and that in some cases it is more or less a waste of time for individual farmers to transport their milk to the creameries; in many cases only small quantities of milk are involved. I am pleased to note that now in many districts we have people joining together and co-operating in the transport of milk or hiring a local person to transport it. That, to my mind, is a much more economical way of doing the work. In regard to getting cattle with a higher milk yield, the technical advice which has been made available down through the years has resulted in a marked improvement and has benefited the farmer in regard to getting the best milk-yielding type of cow for the particular district in which his holding is located. By and large, and particularly as far as south-west Cork is concerned, the vast majority of the farming community are endeavouring to modernise their holdings and provide the best possible equipment to ensure that the highest possible production will be achieved.

I had occasion here to refer to the difference which exists in relation to milk production. In 1952 and 1953 when the late Deputy Walsh, God be good to him, was sitting where the Minister now is, he announced the establishment of the Milk Costings Commission. Recently I read up some of the statements made at the time the Commission was mooted.

A good book for a wet week.

We were told that the Government were so mindful of the farmers' interests that they were going to set up this Commission. Deputy Corry seems to think there is something funny about all this. Then there were two representatives of the Milk Producers Association. The Commission had as chairman a professor who, I think, has since passed away. To quote the Minister's reference, he was a professor with a sound agricultural background, who was thoroughly conversant with milk costings and who was the ideal type to chairman this Commission. The remaining members were two members of suppliers of milk to creameries, one member nominated by the Dublin District Milk Board and one by the Cork Board, two from the Prices Advisory Body, an officer from the Central Statistics Office and an officer from the Department of Agriculture.

They commenced their job in 1952. From the change of Government in 1954, questions appeared almost every other week asking when the report would be available. We were told: "Here is a commission which will give us a factual appraisal of milk costings in different types of farms and in different localities. When this report is available, we will be able to say to the producers, `Here is a factual appraisal; here is what it cost to produce milk' and we can adjust milk prices to meet costs and give to the producers a price which will give them a reasonable profit." I remember the questions being asked here every other week. In fact, the Minister for Health was very vocal in asking when the report would be available. He was one of the members who took a particular interest in the production of this volume. Whether he is interested today I am not too sure. At that time the Fianna Fáil organisation used to issue a leaflet known as Gléas.

We still do.

You do not circulate it as freely as you did.

(South Tipperary): They send Christmas cards now.

Is it for sale?

No, it is free.

Will the Minister send me a copy?

We will put you on the mailing list.

At that time, for one reason or another, I used to get a copy of that.

We must have thought you needed it.

There was one special edition which I preserved but unfortunately I did not bring it with me as I did not think this Estimate was to be discussed today. I understood that the Estimate for the Department of Lands was to be discussed. This was in the 1956 period and the leaflet contained a photograph of Deputy Smith and an announcement which I must summarise as best I can. The announcement told the people that "Deputy Dillon and his agents had stifled this report, that the Coalition Government hindered and obstructed the production of the report and as soon as we get these people out we will go back to this report again, which we initiated ourselves under the late Deputy Walsh. When this report is available, as we will make it available shortly after resuming office, we will be able to give facts and figures to any people agitating about milk prices and give them their due. There will be no need any more for creamery milk suppliers, the NFA or anybody else, to agitate because here we will have the facts and figures and be able to tell them the correct price for milk." It helped. The Government changed in 1957 and questions were then asked about this report from the other side of the House. The last I could find was about April of 1957 and the reply was that the Commission was not in a position to funish the report but that they had spent £31,700 at that time. Finally this document, which the Fianna Fáil Government had looked forward to with so much glee, was hatched out some time in 1958.

It looks like a book of wallpaper samples.

What this book cost would paper all the walls in Dublin. It is the report of the Milk Costings Commission. I think I am the only person in the House who has paid a tribute to the people who compiled this document. Everybody else has treated it as a joke, as a cod. This much-talked-about document served its own purpose during the gestation period by distracting the farmers from their demands for increased prices by telling them that the report was around the corner and that they would have to wait for it.

The Minister—Deputy Aiken at the time—said that the report was not going to be printed. He said that there were some copies available but that, despite the fact that it had cost almost £40,000, the Government were not going to spend any more money making it available. Not a single copy was ever put into print but a few stencilled copies were made. Was it not downright wasteful and wanton expenditure to bring these learned gentlemen together for six years, to pay up to £40,000 for getting this document together and then to say it was not worth putting into print?

If one had some time to spare to read this document, we would find that these gentlemen did a good job and that they kept within their terms of reference. The job they got to do was to discover what it takes to produce milk and the figures given in this document indicate that at that time the cost of producing milk varied over a wide field, from less than 5d to more than 2/9d per gallon. This document was forgotten about by the Government and it was not unusual at the time to hear it described as cod; but it does contain the milk costings for the best equipped farms and for the poor yielding farms in mountainous districts. They did the job they set out to do, even though it took them a long time.

The Minister has heard so much about milk that I do not wish to bore him much longer with the subject but we must bear in mind the difference between the cost of producing milk from district to district. There is a fairly good case for setting up regional schemes so far as the subsidising of milk and milk products is concerned. It might be a suggestion for the Minister to think over. We must give some subsidies to the dairy farmers and at the same time, every effort must be made to keep up the standard of the milk produced and to improve our production system as much as possible.

Has the Minister read this report?

Not recently.

The Minister ought to read it because Deputy Dillon described these people as members and secretaries of Fianna Fáil cumainn.

I have here a note which indicates that agriculture cannot be improving because of the drift away from the land. The number engaged in agriculture is steadily decreasing and the Government's announced policy some years ago of holding the land population is not bearing fruit. The number leaving the land is higher even than our worst anticipations. The official statistics tell us that in April, 1961, there were 379,000 people engaged in agriculture. In 1962, that figure had dropped to 370,000 and in 1963, it dropped by 8,000 to 362,000. In 1964, it dropped to 352,000 and in 1965, it dropped by 14,000 to 338,000.

That is not a healthy sign as far as rural Ireland is concerned. It is a clear indication that the people living on the land are not being treated fairly and justly. If they were, so many thousands of them would not be leaving. Taking the five year period from 1961 to 1965, we get a figure of 41,000 people as being the number of people who have left agricultural employment. That is something the Minister has to bear in mind in formulating agricultural policies. In country districts, it is the aim of political organisations and of rural and voluntary organisations to try to hold the people on the land, to stop the decline in our population and to arrest emigration as far as possible. Unfortunately, we do not seem to be making much headway as far as the people engaged in agriculture are concerned.

As is pointed out in the memorandum entitled "Notes on the Main Activities of the Department", we are dependent to a large extent for balancing our payments on agricultural products and particularly on the sale of cattle. At this stage I would like to congratulate the Minister and the Department on this memorandum which we get from them each year and which gives us in concise form particulars of the main activities of the Department. Those responsible for the production of this document are to be congratulated. It is set down in easily readable form with a table of contents at the beginning to enable one to get information on any aspect of the Department's activities without difficulty.

Page six of this memorandum deals with our external trade. In 1965 total agricultural exports were £4 million less than in 1964. That is a sharp drop when the trend should have been in the other direction. We sold 92.7 per cent of our exports on the British market, which indicates very clearly that the British market is our main market for agricultural exports. It indicates clearly to me that we cannot make any moves towards joining EEC, EFTA or any other organisation unless Britain joins also. After many years teaching them here, the Government have learned their lesson, as indicated by the views they expressed in the debate on the Free Trade Agreement, that without the British market we could not exist or our standards would be greatly reduced.

A disturbing feature of our trade is the reduction in the number of cattle we exported last year. Our exports of live cattle show the significant drop of £10.1 million. That is a very serious decline. I hope that the results for 1966 when available will show a different picture. We have had clear-cut statements from the Minister on the BTE Scheme, which has cost £40 million up to the end of January this year. A significant figure to my mind is the sum of £10,776,588 for veterinary surgeons' fees. Having regard to information given earlier by the Minister's Department in regard to the number of veterinary officers operating under the scheme, the figure, which represents 27 or 28 per cent of the total cost, seems to me to be rather high. However, the Minister may be able to give us a breakdown of the salaries payable under the scheme.

We are very pleased that this scheme has been a success. We know it was necessary to make a big impact on public funds to bring about that success. I agree with Deputy Sweetman's assertion that there should be a re-appraisal of this heifer subsidy scheme, which was incidental to the BTE scheme. I understand that the provision for it in the Estimate this year is about £3 million. However, the bulk of the smaller and medium farmers will not be able to avail of the scheme this year because they are already at the maximum. Their holdings cannot take any more cattle. Therefore, the continuance of the scheme will not be helpful to them. The Minister might consider channelling the money to them through some other source. I am speaking for the intensive dairying areas in the south of Ireland. Possibly in the west of Ireland or in parts of the midlands, with which I am not conversant, the picture would be somewhat different.

Another feature of this scheme—I am not attaching any blame to the Minister for it—is that it did bring about greater production of stores in the midland counties than obtained heretofore. The cattle population of the midland counties increased, naturally enough, when the people availed of the heifer subsidy, and as a result there was a decline in the price of cattle in the fairs and marts in West Cork and in other centres where midland buyers were purchasing their requirements. Seeing that they had got their requirements on their own, the demand for stores was not as good as in other years and consequently there was a drop in prices. That, in the opinion of the farming community and the buyers as well, is part of the reason for the drop. We all know that at times during the past eight or nine months cattle prices were not anything near as good as they were 12 months previously, and for a number of weeks at marts and fairs disappointing prices were obtained. We hope the position in regard to store cattle prices will hold, as it would be a big disadvantage to the producers if it should be otherwise. I appreciate, in saying all this, that it is almost impossible for the lower income group of this country to purchase beef nowadays. We know that prices have gone beyond their pockets. At the same time we must appreciate as this report and other Governmental reports indicate to us, that the prices obtained for store cattle are most helpful in correcting our balance of payments.

The eradication of disease other than bovine TB is an important matter as far as Cork is concerned. In the Cork Animal Health Committee and in the County Council every effort is being made to co-operate with the Department in the eradication of diseases particularly sheep scab and brucellosis. I do not wish to delay too long but I should like to refer to the bacon industry. It is not unlikely that the Minister will be anxious soon for a cup of tea, and would he ever tell me before he leaves if there is any news about the west Cork bacon factory?

Not lately. The position is the same.

I could tell the House a bit about it.

The delay is not on my part.

Deputy Seán Collins, Deputy Cotter and I am very interested in the establishment of this factory. It would be of immense benefit to the pig producers of the district and it would also give a good deal of employment. I understand from many previous representations which I made in conjunction with my colleagues to secure a bacon factory for west Cork that without a very strong recommendation from the Minister for Agriculture there is no possibility of getting a penny from An Foras Tionscal. The Minister has indicated that he is prepared to give a licence but the Minister knows very well that in making that assertion he is giving nothing because he is obliged to grant a licence in any part of this State to 1,000 producers who form themselves into a co-operative society. Factories cannot be erected without money, and I should like to know will it be there or will it not because creating false impressions is not desirable? I hope this was not an election factory when it was announced a few days before the general election on 7th April last year. I hope it will mature.

There is another matter I mentioned on the Supplementary Estimate. Has the Minister any additional information on the proposals of the Express Dairies of England to erect a milk plant at Ballineen in West Cork to service the mid-Cork and south-west Cork districts?

Deputy Crowley was making pronouncements about that.

The people who were responsible for getting this English company interested deserve our congratulations because the manager of one of these societies, the Drinagh Co-operative Society, Mr. Quirke, feels that this will increase the price of milk by 3d per gallon. That is the interpretation I took from remarks he made within the past few months. That increase would be very welcome and the area covered by this federation will cater for milk from Carrigaline to the end of the Berehaven Peninsula. Therefore we hope the erection of this factory will commence in the not too distant future and that there will be a revolution in the intake of milk or in the system of collecting milk in West Cork which will prove advantageous to all concerned. That is an achievement which the Minister should expedite as much as possible, seeing that this increase will come about without imposing any additional charge on the Exchequer, as I understand, and could mean as much as 3d per gallon.

I mentioned the importance of horticulture on the debate on the Supplementary Estimate and I hope the Department will help the Skibbereen project in every way possible.

One point I should like to impress upon the Minister is in regard to the availability of agricultural credit. The present position is that a substantial number of farmers go to hire purchase companies who charge exorbitant rates of interest for loans to buy farm machines, tractors and other equipment needed for their holdings. The main reason they go to these hire purchase companies is the difficulty of obtaining loans from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, even though these are creditworthy farmers. Within the past 12 months or so, there has been considerable difficulty in obtaining finance from the banks. These hire purchase companies charge exceptionally high rates of interest. They are legally entitled to charge as much as 39 per cent and I know some that charge well over 20 per cent; it works out at much more than 20 per cent when one remembers that they are giving the full amount of the loan for a period of only three or six months, as the case may be. With the removal of the necessity for producing deeds, I believe the Agricultural Credit Corporation would now be working smoothly, were it not for the credit squeeze. Doing away with their having a charge on the lands has speeded things up. Loans are now given on personal security and they have their own agents in different districts.

There should be no need for delays in making loans available, provided they have the finance. They were, I know, restricted on Government instruction in making loans for the purchase of land and so on. I should like to see the position obtaining in which a borrower would not have to wait more than two or three weeks. It should be possible for the local agent to report on the credentials of the prospective borrower and there should be no need for a long waiting period. If that were the position, more farmers would be getting loans at one-third the rate of interest they are paying now. I understand the Agricultural Credit Corporation charge from 6½ to 7¼ per cent. That is as cheap as any money one can buy from any organisation.

I am somewhat doubtful of the activities of banking organisations which are the sole owners of a number of hire purchase companies. If one goes to a bank manager for a loan of £400 or £600 to buy a tractor or other farm equipment the bank manager will advise one that he cannot make the loan but can recommend people who will. There are at least three hire purchase companies owned entirely by the banks. I do not think it is ethical, to say the least of it, for a bank manager to refuse a loan and then recommend a company owned by his own bank.

He gets commission on it.

The Agricultural Credit Corporation are not restricted in any way in relation to tractors. They are anxious to do more business for the purchase of tractors.

I know, but there are certain difficulties. When the Agricultural Credit Corporation write to people for deeds, and so on, the applicants are inclined to go to the banks, or elsewhere; some people unfortunately do not take into account the interest rates chargeable. At any rate I doubt very much if it is straightforward for a bank manager to refuse a loan to an applicant and then recommend him for the same loan to what is a subsidiary of the bank.

To revert for a moment to bacon, the increased price for barley is undoubtedly welcome in many parts of the country. The Minister, however, should remember that, when he increases the price of barley, he is helping a certain number of farmers and doing the opposite where other farmers are concerned. Very little barley is grown in West Cork but a great deal of barley is bought by the pig producers there, either as whole barley or as a ration, and consequently any increase in price is an increase on the small pigfeeder or the small farmer. It is a vexed question. I know Deputy Corry has the opposite view from mine because the position in the area he represents is the opposite. It is advantageous in his area to have an increased price for grain because the selling of grain constitutes a big part of the farmer's income. As against that, in West Cork where grain is purchased for feeding stock, an increased price has the opposite effect.

The Minister has said very little about poultry production. With eggs only 1/9 a dozen in the past few weeks, I am afraid we are nearing the end of the traditional system of poultry rearing and poultry production. The Minister claimed that he made £874 on 2,000 hens. If people could make that much profit on 2,000 hens, the country would be swarming with hens. There are hundreds of people in West Cork thoroughly conversant with poultry keeping. It is not so long since it constituted an important part of their income. They would have no trouble providing facilities to keep 2,000 hens, were it not for the fact that there is little or no market. The amount of money provided for poultry production is limited. The industry is now mainly confined to a small group engaged in it in a big way. The broiler industry constitutes the main part of the income from poultry production. It would be completely misleading for the Minister to imply that the adoption of modern methods of poultry keeping would result in a much greater market than exists. The farmyard chicken has disappeared. The numbers of turkeys exported last year was an all-time low, a negligible number, some 13,000 birds. I should like the Minister to give some concrete advice to poultry-keepers. I should like him to give his views on the future of the industry and on whether there is a likelihood of any change in the position that prevails so far as marketing, for instance, is concerned. We are told that the marketing difficulty is the main obstacle. I should like to know if there is any likelihood of a change in that direction.

If I were in the Minister's position and were doing very well out of poultry, I should feel it incumbent upon me to make all the facts available to the public rather than to keep this information to myself.

It was published in the technical journal. The whole thing was published in the technical journal, photographs and everything.

How is the position this year?

Very good.

How much did you make this year?

The income tax inspector would not ask me that.

I am sure things are not so good.

I admit it is a very specialised operation.

With regard to land reclamation, we have had umpteen deputations of farmers to Cork County Council requesting the implementation of land reclamation schemes. The council has no funds at its disposal to do this work. It is outside the scope of its activities. The Minister should extend the land project as much as possible to cover some of these schemes which at present seem to be outside the scope of the land project work because they are deemed to be minor drainage works. I would ask the Minister to review the position as sympathetically as possible in the light of such applications.

I shall conclude by expressing the hope, as far as all branches of agriculture are concerned, that improvements will be effected in the coming year and that we shall have a brighter picture 12 months hence. I sincerely hope the Minister and the farming organisations will reach an amicable arrangement on the problems that confront them. I am a firm believer in having disputes discussed around the table. I do not like the other systems. I believe that when people have a grievance they should make every effort to meet the parties with whom they have the grievance and try to make an arrangement to hammer out their difficulties around the table rather than resorting to a piece of stick and a piece of cardboard and walking around the streets with them. It is a regrettable feature of our life at the present time, particularly in the past 12 months, that, from day to day, the paper headlines indicate pickets of one kind or another. Let us hope, then, that, in the dispute that exists at present, an arrangement will be reached between the Minister and the parties concerned that will be fair to the farmers, to the Department and to the taxpayers who will have to provide the money to meet it. I wish the Minister good luck in his pending negotiations on the milk price question.

I should like to start my speech where Deputy Murphy left off. It is a pity he did not avail of the invitation of the Minister last year to visit his poultry farm, picaun the hens the night before and count the eggs in the morning, because, with the information he would have gained, Deputy Creed and I should be able to appoint him poultry instructress for the county of Cork and, in that way, bring the profits south. Deputy Murphy is a damned good farmers Deputy and I am glad to see him down there on that front bench. I want to deal with the milk question and to be frank about it. That book which Deputy Murphy has beside him was got out when the ICMS were pressing a former Minister in a former Government for a better price for their milk and it was dragged along for about seven or eight years because no Minister was prepared to come up to scratch and to say: "I will pay the price."

I hate to see differences between any farmers' organisations. The ICMSA was formed in the south of Ireland amongst the creamery milk suppliers for a very definite purpose. I suggest to the Minister that any fixing of a price must be done with the organisation representing the commodity involved. I have had very bitter experience of this kind of thing. I remember for a long number of years in the Irish Sugar Beet Growers Association coming to the Minister for Agriculture of the day, every year, on the question of the fixation of wheat and barley prices, principally. The last occasion, when we came to the Minister in regard to that matter—the meeting was on a Thursday—he said: "Oh, I had a farmers' organisation here on Tuesday last. They were a sensible body of men, not like you fellows, and they asked me only so and so". Those were two different farmers' organisations, one being thrown against the other by a fairly clever Minister. That was the position then.

At the next meeting of my organisation, I invited some of those gentlemen in and made an arrangement with them that for wheat and feeding barley, they would be responsible but that beet, vegetables and malting barley would be our job and we would do it. With all due respect to everybody, we have had the devil of a job to compel them to keep their noses out of our business ever since. As a matter of fact, only a month ago we went to make an arrangement on vegetables for County Galway farmers. We had representatives of the Tuam board there, Mr. Lahiffe and Mr. Curley. When we looked across the table, there were three representatives of this farm organisation representing a bunch of blacklegs from County Louth, trying to suggest other prices. This kind of thing must be stopped. They were taught a lesson and it was time they were taught it. In our organisation nobody can become a member unless he grows beet for the particular year in which he is elected. We have no publicans from the village and no schoolteachers; we are doing our own job as tillage farmers and we have done it, and I, for one, will not tolerate interference by any other organisation in the particular duties that have been assigned to me and my comrades by vote of our organisation.

There is a good deal of unrest. This is the second farmers' strike in two years. Deputy Creed, Deputy Murphy and I were in Cork last week at the health authority meeting and we were presented with a bill for increases for four gentlemen of £2,600 a year, or about £700 per man.

The civil servants got more than that.

For heaven's sake, mind the each-way doubles. The increase was dated back for two years to 1963 and we were invited to pass an extra Estimate for £12,200 to pay four of them. If an unfortunate farmer makes a mistake with a cow, he loses the cow or he loses the calf but the mistakes those fellows made are covered up with spade and shovel. It is about time this discrepancy between the ordinary workers, whether they are farmers, farm labourers or otherwise, and those earning, salaries of £2,000 or £2,500 a year was taken away. We were told these figures were reached by arbitration and when I inquired of the Minister, I was told it was arbitration between the managers' association and some other super-body up here that is up in the sky itself.

I hope the Deputy will keep to the Estimate.

I am doing so, Sir. I am giving the principal reasons why we have at present unfortunate farmers outside this House looking for prices. One needs only to come to this Estimate to see that subhead A—salaries, wages and allowances for the Minister and secretariat, administrative staff, agricultural inspectorate, veterinary inspectorate, etc.—has increased from £1 million last year to £1,237,000 this year, an increase of 25 per cent. I wonder what would be said if the farmers sought a 25 per cent increase.

We must get down to bedrock in these things. That is the first item in the Estimate. There are also two items given as subsidies to agriculture. One is a figure of £2,427,000 for the farm buildings scheme. I respectfully suggest that subsidy is for industry and not farm buildings. The figure is given to subsidise Irish industry, certainly—and I am glad to see it— corrugated iron and so on. If you do not use that corrugated iron, you do not get the subsidy, although CIE get a subsidy of £2 million and they do not use it at all. I also suggest that the fertiliser subsidy I see here is only covering, and has been covering, the increased costs of fertilisers and that it is a subsidy to the monopoly that is running the fertiliser industry to date. That takes £7 million from the enormous amount of subsidies the agricultural community are supposed to get.

I had not time to go into any more of them but I suggest there is between £2.5 million and £3 million involved in this heifer scheme and I suggest that scheme which was a very good one has served its purpose so far as the ordinary farmer is concerned. I am talking of ordinary farmers and not of cattle dealers or such people. Having served its purpose, I suggest the scheme be now withdrawn and that that £2½ million be siphoned off to give an increased price for milk. These matters must be approached sensibly. If the Minister adopted my suggestion, he could throw in the £¼ million extra as a bonus. That is the only way to deal with the present position as regards milk.

I am old enough to have seen this game of one farmers' organisation being played off against the other several times. Two years after the Beet Growers Association handed over the question of the price of feeding barley to the other organisation, I remember coming to a Minister for Agriculture and abusing him because he gave only 38/- a barrel for barley. His reply was: "Will any man give more than he was asked for?". He was asked for 38/-. I refer to the late Deputy Seán Moylan and would not belie him. Those who took over knew so much about the job that they went in the following year looking for 2/- a barrel less than was being paid the year before. Let us be clear as to what we are doing. Deputy Murphy was talking about the high price of barley now because it is £22. The late Deputy Tom Walsh held it at 48/-a barrel for four years and there was no noise about it and people fattened pigs then and made money.

If agriculture is to maintain its proper position, we must approach the problems in connection with it on the lines I have suggested. When a scheme has served its purpose, the funds available for it should be siphoned off to some other agricultural purpose where they would do good.

A man cannot be expected to work a seven-day week for one-third of the wage that is paid to an ordinary worker. For instance, a young boy who worked for me for a few years asked if I would get him a job in Irish Steel. I gave him a letter and he got a job. He got married on the strength of it and had six children. His wife asked me would she get a medical card. I referred the matter for investigation and found that as an ordinary labourer in Irish Steel, that man had earned during the previous year £1,097. He would be a long time getting that from a farmer. He had to work only a five-day week instead of seven.

I should like to be as reasonable as possible but one is brought up against the position that obtains in the country. Deputy Murphy alluded to the 40,000 persons who had left the land. There is nothing surprising in that. A man with 35 acres of land found that he would make far more in Irish Steel than he would make out of the 35 acres. That is why people leave the land.

I have agitated for a long number of years for parity between the agricultural wage and the industrial wage if people are to remain on the land. People talk of farmers endeavouring to get labour-saving equipment. A fortnight ago I had to buy a small engine to work the milking machine when the gentlemen in ESB with £1,000 a year would be off scratching themselves and saying "Strike on here" outside the door. That is why there cannot be the co-operation and effort that one would naturally expect in agriculture. That is the first difficulty.

Two years ago farmers in Cork county had to go to the railway stations, work on wagons, empty the beet into lorries and take it out to Mallow because, despite the subsidy that had been given, CIE decided to go on strike. There is too much of that kind of thing happening in the country and it is time it ended. The only hope is to make strikes illegal in essential industries and to set up a proper court for the settlement of disputes about wages and salaries.

Last year I was in the same position as the milk suppliers are in. I should like to pay the Minister this tribute, that when he settled the matter, he did a decent and respectable job of it. I should like to express my grateful thanks to the Minister for his intervention. Beet is the only industry in this country in connection with which the price is based on the cost of production. Last year the beetgrowers were entitled to an increase of 5/3d a ton. We went to the Sugar Company and were told that they had not got the money and could not get it, that there was only one way in which it could be got, and that was by an increase in the price of sugar. We went on strike. As I have said, the Minister very decently stepped in and settled the strike very quickly.

Last November, we went to the Sugar Company again. This year we were entitled to a further increase of 13/3d, on our costings. General Costello told us that there was no money there for us, that there was not a penny in the kitty. I said to him: "You have no money for anybody?""No," he said. "There is no money here for anybody now". I said that I would take last year's price from him for the coming year but warned him that the acreage of beet would go down by anything between 15,000 and 20,000 acres. I said I wanted an agreement with him. "You sign an agreement here," I said, "that in regard to any increase in wages to your workers or in salaries to your staff which you give during the next 12 months, the same percentage increase will be put on to the price of beet." He said they had no money but he signed that last November. I referred to it in the House a couple of months ago. Last Tuesday week he said he was prepared to honour it.

We have to remember that the price of labour for beet is £7 16s. a week. Compare that with the £20 a week to which I referred a while ago. According as the cost of production goes up, we are legally entitled to an increase under the agreement made in 1948. We are entitled to have our costings brought up according to the agreement between the Sugar Company and the Beet Growers Association. That price must be paid and the only reason it was not paid for the past couple of years was that the Government were not prepared to make the £20 a week fellow pay an extra penny on his lb. of sugar. It is just as well to get down to brass tacks on this. In order that the man with £7 16s. a week would get an increase in his wages, the gentlemen with the £20 a week whom I mentioned a few minutes ago would have to be asked to pay an extra penny on their sugar. I hope the workers get £5 a week more. The more they get, the higher we will go with them. The most advantageous thing for the farmers to do today is to tie their produce to the workers as I did with beet.

I see no reference in the Minister's statement, or in the Estimate, to the food-processing plants which, in my opinion, are going to be the salvation of the ordinary tillage farmer. If there is any hope of stopping the decline in tillage, it will be through crops which will give a decent return as these will. We started such a plant in Midleton and last year was its first year in production. We paid roughly £47,000 to the farmers and we paid £43,000 in wages in that factory. It was brought about by the farmers putting up £30,000 and the Sugar Company putting up another £30,000. There are 80 people employed in the plant who otherwise would be looking for employment and there was an extra £47,000 for the farmers who grew the crops. Those are the things I want to see expanded.

I had an argument with General Costello this year. I wanted to expand this year and he raised the question of finance. He asked me where we would get the money and I replied that we would get it by getting every farmer to take ten shares in the factory for every acre of peas for which he contracted. He said: "You will not get it that way." I invited applications on that basis. We grew 300 acres last year and I got applications for 1,370 acres of peas. That was £14,000 in shares if we were prepared to take it up this year. There you have a crop in which there is a profit and for which there is a good export market. This year we are forced to import peas from Canada to meet our needs. I have a copy of the invoices if there is any doubt about that statement. There is an industry which is going abegging. It will not be producing something which is out of date or out of fashion, as we were told today in regard to another matter. It is going to produce something from which the farmer will get an income and the workers employment and which will mean that there will be employment on the land which will be under tillage.

That is the kind of industry I should like to see being fostered. Such industries are the type that will pay and work. Nobody, least of all myself, can deny the position that obtained in 1947 when General Costello took over the beet factories. Beet was dying every year; there was a lesser acreage of beet every year. He built it up and he gave employment to thousands of men and women who otherwise would have to go to the foreigner looking for a day's work. I take off my hat to him for that. In our case we have a wonderful factory giving employment to 80 people who are earning decent wages and as well, the farmers are being paid. You have the same position in Skibbereen, as Deputy Collins knows. The more industries of that type which are established, where you can have this co-operation between the farmer and the industry, the better off the farmer is going to be, and you will have less of this dirt that you have at present.

Another matter which I should like the Minister to investigate when he has the chance is this. There are several firms producing chocolate crumb and I should like to know whether these people are drawing two subsidies or not; whether they are getting a subsidy on milk, on the one side, and a subsidy on the price of sugar on the other side. I do not mind paying a fellow one salary but I am hanged if I will pay him two. I am reliably informed on this aspect and I should like the Minister to have it investigated. I do not think there would be any justification for paying two subsidies in this industry, even though they do account for a lot of the milk which is produced. I believe that is being done at present.

I have nothing further to say, except to add that with my knowledge of the Minister and my knowledge of the manner in which the Minister has carried out his work since he came into office last April, I know that he is doing a good job and I believe that he will do a better one. If it were otherwise, I would say it. That is the situation as I see it and I urge the Minister, when dealing with the milk industry, to deal with the people who represent the milk producers and to let the bullock farmers look after themselves.

I do not want to add fuel to the present fire but I feel it incumbent on me to say that I feel disgusted that any responsible Minister of State in this country, and particularly an alleged young and progressive Minister, should speak in such a contemptuous way of what is possibly the most decent and conservative element in this country, the hardworking Irish farmer. It ill behoves the Minister, and I say so with all the contempt that is in me, to insult this class of our community. These people have a good claim and if the Minister would only come to grips with the problem, he would find that they would be the most ready to respond to any appeal to help the economy. Fianna Fáil never gave a thraneen about the farmers of this country and they are beginning to learn it now.

Anything the milk farmers ever got they got from Fianna Fáil, and you know it.

They are outside there now and it is your job to try to deal with them. You are the person in charge of the office and I can tell you this, that the attitude of the young pretender will not be the answer to this problem. Why is the Minister afraid to come to grips with what everybody knows is a real problem? It may well be that it will be necessary to have a complete re-appraisal of the whole dairying industry and of the necessity and practicability of having widely diversified outlets for our milk products. Why does the Minister not tackle the problem instead of using the whip of emergency powers legislation for a purpose for which it was never conceived, to keep decent, responsible and conservative hardworking people from making a final protest against the degradation of an industry which is vital to our whole economy?

The dairying industry is the foundation on which we build all our agricultural economy. It forms the main foundation of the exports on which we depend to meet our balance of trade deficits. No matter what Government were in office in this country, the agricultural community were never asked to make a sacrifice or effort in which they did not play their full part in giving the Irish economy a chance to survive. I have nothing but contempt for a Minister who has forced these unfortunate people into their present condition of being itinerant recipients of Black Maria treatment. It is an extraordinary thing that it has fallen to a Government of our own to prescribe this Black Maria treatment.

The Minister is trying to play the end against the middle and is exploiting the differences between the farmers' organisations for his own purposes. He is adopting the old British Empire policy of "Divide and conquer". He is using some of his sychophants in one organisation to play them against the other. This very well produced department script of his, which I am sure is the result of many hours of overtime of the decent civil servants in his Department, carries very little hope of any dynamic approach to our agricultural future and little help to us to meet the challenge of Europe or the challenge of the now accepted British Free Trade Agreement.

The potential expansion of our agricultural industry has been the political catchery of this Parliament for over 40 years but there has never been a realistic, progressive scheme evolved whereby proper price floors were put under our saleable products so that there would be a proper profit margin for our farmers. The difficulties of our agricultural industry have become endemic over the years because of the fact that there have been too many ad hoc decisions and unrealistic steps taken to bolster up temporary troubles without any practical approach to the long-term necessity for proper planning.

It is refreshing to listen to somebody with the downright common sense of Deputy Corry. Over the 20 years I have been here, we have always heard, whether he agreed with the Government in office or whether this Party were in office, some gems of common sense from Deputy Corry. One of these was when he was giving us the benefit of his experience of trying to lead a sectional organisation in agriculture and the difficulties he had until he established his right to chew one bone. What the Minister must realise is that if he is going to face up to the question of the dairying industry, he will have to do so with the people who are representing the primary milk producers as distinct from any other organisation. He is not going to gain any goodwill for himself by whispering in the ear of the president of one organisation and trying to throw soot in the ear of the president of another. He will have to forget this queer system of delegating investigations to commissions and so on.

The issue is simple. We are all well aware of the fact that the cost of production has gone up steadily over the last number of years. If that is so, there must be a just claim now for a substantial increase in the price of milk. Looking over some creamery records recently, I believe that, no matter what people may say, over the past seven or eight years the actual increase per gallon in milk prices has been microscopic. That leaves a backlog of unsatisfied claims. We experienced recently in this House what it costs to deal with unsatisfied claims in retrospect. We had to face the tremendous bill that came in course of payment in respect of awards that had been deferred and arbitration that had not been held and to make available to our Civil Service and various other State concerns enormous sums of money to bring them up-to-date.

Is there anything unjust about milk farmers looking for some share of the cake when that type of activity abounds around them? Even though Deputy Corry may not have been realistic in his analogy about the four people in the local authority who wanted to get £12,000 in back money over a period of three years, it does indicate clearly the way the farmer must now feel. There has been no increase in his prices; yet all these things are happening around him.

I know there are two sides to the problem of increasing the price of milk. I know that part of it may not be directly the responsibility of the Minister. It is a matter for farmers and creameries to work out for themselves their difficulties and differences on the test side. But I think the Minister will concede—I am certain he will between now and 1st June—that the milk farmer is entitled to some increase.

I would say the Minister's main difficulty at the moment is to try to convince his colleagues in Government that they must find the money somewhere to get him out of his present difficulty. But that brings us back to the fact that it is a measure of expediency. It will be a kind of ad hoc payment without any realistic approach to the nature of the problem, the manner in which it may develop and the various types of remedies to be applied—whether it will be possible to have an extension of the type of industry conceived by Expresso Dairies for the south-west Cork area where there is an enormous gallonage of milk available, whether it will be possible with that type of diversification to get the price increase the farmer needs without having to pass it on to the taxpayer.

There is too much politics in our agriculture when you are trying to suggest, as has been suggested at times, that there is an over-bias in favour of agriculture. Deputy Corry put his finger on the running sore and the difficulties created in agriculture. It is the disparity between the earning capacity of the industrial worker, the builder's labourer, and the farm worker. Until there is some scaling up of the reward for the skill and effort of the farm labourer and small farmer, unless he is put in the position to earn the type of reward that will give him a useful return, you will not get the best out of agriculture and you will not get the best type of people to stay on the land and work it. The difficulty was pinpointed by Deputy Corry when he spoke of the small farmer going to work in Irish Steel because he could earn from £21 to £23 per week there. He can throw a bit of dry stock on his 35 acres. That is understandable when one works out on the Department's statistics what the average income of the small farmer is. This is a problem that will have to be faced with immense courage. We have had far too much talk and no real integration of a plan for a series of increases to meet the various challenges we will have to face in agriculture. There is no good in the Minister trying to tell the farmer he is better off than he was before.

There is one thing for which we cannot blame the Minister. We cannot blame him for the extraordinarily difficult winter and spring we have had. He does not control the weather. But he should control his tongue at times, when he is talking about the price of dropped calves and about the increased income the farmers should have had. If he goes into any mart—goodness knows, he goes into enough of them, and I believe he is very personable and sociable at them—he knows perfectly well that the dropped calf is down an average of £10. Even though prices are beginning to come back in the stock trade and export trade, they still are not anywhere near back to what they were before. That difficulty exists possibly because of the reason given by Deputy Corry and Deputy Murphy, that the heifer scheme in serving its purpose dried up to a great extent the buying being done in the small farming areas of the midlands and that the big cattle dealers and ranchers had over-produced in chasing the subsidy and created a temporary difficulty on the market.

Like other Deputies, I feel the Minister should review this heifer scheme quickly. Though it has been very useful, the money spent on it might now be channelled off in different directions. Deputy Corry wants to use the money to help the milk farmers. I want to use it in a different way to help the dairy industry. As I said when the £15 subsidy came in, I believe this would be far better at the primary producer level on the basis of a calf subsidy. What has happened to the heifer scheme, even though it may have benefited the agricultural economy generally, is that the bigger man was able to grab most of the stock because the smaller man was not in a position to carry the extra stock that would make it possible to earn £30, £60 or, as some people did, £1,000 a year out of the scheme.

We have to live and learn, and while that scheme, as I freely admit, may have given the tremendous impetus to animal husbandry that we wanted, it now needs very careful reappraisal, particularly in the light of the fact that the Minister and his Department are going all out to improve the general level of our stock and to eliminate any of these perennial or endemic diseases that have for so long retarded our agricultural development because farmers had to suffer so many losses from diseases that can now be cleared up quickly. Let us take the headline of the bovine tuberculosis eradication and go on, as the Minister is endeavouring, to the elimination of mastitis, brucellosis, fluke and other diseases, saving a tremendous number of animals year after year so that they will be available for sale in prime condition for the earning of that extra profit the farmer so badly needs.

Our difficulty in agriculture is that when we go too fast at anything, as we have done on a number of occasions, say, in the bacon industry, when we get production geared up, when we get the quality improved and get our farmers enthusiastic, the glut situation then arises and the farmer, for his increased production, for his extra effort, is often faced with unsaleable amounts or with glut prices that will not show a profit.

The Minister and his Department will have to go more and more into the question of market research to ensure that when a farmer is encouraged into greater, better-type production, there will be an absolutely full market for his produce. I represent one of the big pig producing areas in this country, and one of the best, but we have had that difficulty from time to time. I want to see coming out of the Department of Agriculture not the sermons we get about everything else or vague projections into the future but some practical results in the form of greater market research and greater aid to the producer in improving the quality, configuration and shape of his animals so that not only will he produce a top quality article but will get a top quality price for every article he produces. We must find a method of eliminating fluctuations and see that production is maintained in an orderly and practical way.

I am convinced it costs the farmer as little to feed a good pig that will grade as top quality as a bad pig that will not grade as top quality. With our drive towards the elimination of diseases in our stock, with the improvement in pig quality due to progeny testing, with assistance and direction in the method of that improvement. I believe we have the basis for an industry that can fully compete with the Danes or anybody else as regards quality and type, and ultimately in presentation for sale.

This is where we have to go if we are in earnest about the future of our agriculture in the keen competition that is envisaged in the future. We must stop talking and get on with the job. We must establish the confidence of the producer in the Department's technical advice, direction and help. Let the Department see that the research into the market is kept properly and up to date and that production is properly marketed. Then we are on the way to giving back the agricultural industry its self-respect, its dignity and its capacity to create a decent standard of life for the farmers and workers who are engaged in it.

I want to see not pickets outside Dáil Éireann but the farmers who are arguing for a just readjustment in the price of milk back on the land devoting their time again to increased production. I believe that there is at the moment, and will be for some considerable time, a beef shortage in Britain and in Europe that will enable a practically designed and expanding cattle population here to be absorbed at a very profitable margin to the Irish farmer. The best type of service we can give to agriculture is to ensure that all avenues of marketing are properly explored and made available.

As a result of the discussions on the free trade area, there was a limitation, that is effective at the moment because of lack of numbers, whereby in the main our store trade will be completely taken up by filling the quota that Britain requires; but I think we can, particularly if our eyes are on Europe, see the store trade expanding far beyond that area, provided there is proper market research and the kind of dynamic lead that one should expect from the Department of Agriculture for the purpose of getting our animal husbandry right. The Minister has had a great deal of courage, I think, and a good deal of success in bringing in the strains he has introduced into the country. Recently I had some experience of the enormous potential there is as a result of the birth of calves from Freisian and Charolais crosses. We want, with that type of approach, to be continuously watching market outlets.

I have said here on dozens of occasions that we have been wandering all over the world with all kinds of queer people, chasing queer markets, and we have never got down to a proper analysis of and research into the markets nearest to us. I am fully convinced that in all phases, be it pork, beef, mutton or lamb, the near Continent and Britain have never been properly researched into from the point of view of marketing. We are entering into a type of competition in which every extra beast we can sell will not only make an extra profit for the farmer but will more and more keep our economy in balance vis-á-vis imports. No matter what the pundits may say, or no matter of what the experts may try to persuade one by statistics, the blunt reality is that the Irish farmer is carrying the burden of whatever high standard of living or luxury living our imports give us.

I want to see courageous thinking. I do not want to see the Irish farmer a mendicant. I want to see him proud of his calling, happy in it, and capable of making a living out of it for himself and his family. I want to see him facilitated with technical advice. I want to see credit made available to him to enable him to bend his will and effort to meeting the challenge before us. There will be no difficulty in calling forth this effort if the Minister recognises the debt the community in general owe to the farmer. It is neither sops nor doles the farmer wants. Give him the facilities, give him the tools, and you need not have any doubt at all that he will do the job. He has always done it. Remember, he recovered from the bludgeoning stupidity of the Economic War. He fought his way back and helped us when the chips were down in our recent fight to right our balance of payments.

That loyalty, courage and effort are always there and will be there and demonstrated again when the Minister has sense enough to take these decent men into his confidence, and iron out the difficulties and the differences. If he thinks he cannot do that, then let him make way for somebody who can. I believe, however, that if the Minister puts his mind to it, he can do it. Better do it before things reach extremes on either side. Better take time by the forelock and "have a go". After all, the Minister is known as "Have-a-Go Charlie". Why not "have a go" before things drift too far? Why not "have a go" before what started in a just demand may become clouded in the bitterness of unnecessary dissension?

I want to see the Minister bring this matter to a successful conclusion. It is vital for the country that he should because any serious setback in the dairying industry, any serious change from our small-farmer-calfbreeding industry, which is such a crucial part of the dairying industry, could lead to disastrous consequences from the point of view of animal husbandry. The Minister should not let petty pride stop him. Remember, no matter how we may deprecate what has happened, we are all anxious that the Minister should find a speedy solution to this problem so that our farmers may be able to concentrate again on the work that has fallen so far behind because of the spring conditions, work which must be done if a harvest is to be reaped.

There should be no amnesia and no anaesthesia in relation to our agricultural economy. If things are not all right, no fulminating on the part of the Minister will change the fact that the farmers have difficulties and problems. Some of these difficulties are consequential on circumstances outside their control. Mark you, when the farmer has to face new taxation, all the various impositions placed on him in recent Budgets, uncertain prices and falling prices, it is not conducive to a good atmosphere to suggest to him that there is complacency and self-satisfaction in relation to agriculture.

I have always believed that agriculture was one of the facets of this nation's development that we should try to take out of politics altogether and put into the field of projected, progressive, concerted, integrated planning. I do not know whether zoning is the answer to the problem but I do know that if we want to increase production, if we want ordered, economically increased production, we shall have to do a lot more thinking and planning in agriculture. For too long we have been bedevilled by a low production, high profit complex, whereas, in the problem of the future battle in the concept of Europe, we shall have to fight the battle on quality and price and have a high production at an economic level. We may not have as much time as we think to gear ourselves for this effort.

I remember telling the Taoiseach bluntly in this House some years ago that Britain would not get into the Common Market, never mind us, but the position is rapidly changing. Whether or not the Government are aware of it, they might find that, willy-nilly, as the junior partner of the Free Trade Agreement, we are on the brink of Europe quicker than had been anticipated and, in those circumstances, it will take all the dynamics, energy, youth, fervour and effort of the Minister—if he wants to use them —to get the agricultural economy geared in the right direction and not in the form of disjointed and what I feel to be unnecessary effort by the farmers to pinpoint one particular ailment that is obvious, that is an irritant, that needs a remedy and a solution, the quicker given the better.

There is no good in trying to talk about yesteryear in the problem of today. It is today that the farmer in my constituency feels he is justified in demanding and in trying to demand by every manner in his power the adjustment in the price of milk to which he is entitled. I suppose there is not a more hardworking section in agriculture than the milk producer. He has not got a five-day cow. In many cases, in my area, the only help he has is the family or his wife. They are entitled to something better than the treatment they are getting at the moment. I am urging the Minister to give it to them in a gracious, generous type of way and not to allow pickets, or the necessity for them, to continue.

Now, let us consider the general field of the Department. I want to make the suggestion that the Minister do something about all the inordinate delays that are going on about every type of subsidy the Department are paying to the farmer. Blue cards are held up on all kinds of slight excuses. Farm improvement grant applications are sent back or queries are raised— all creating the atmosphere in the minds of the farmers that the bucket is empty, that there is a hole in the bucket, creating and engendering a type of lack of confidence which we do not want to arise.

There must be something coming into the Exchequer now. Fair play to him, the Minister was not too bad about getting the old blue card attended to and an occasional farm improvement grant that was held up. I suggest that he start getting after these problems again—there must be a trickle into the bucket now—and save us all the embarrassment and difficulties we experience when people come along to us and say: "It is now eight or nine months and I have not yet been paid". It is embarrassing even for the Opposition to have to tell them that the Government have not got a "bob" and it is not any encouragement to the farmer to have any of these uncertainties prevailing.

I shall not delay the House. Many of my colleagues want to talk, and talk ad rem, on the problems that present themselves to us. We all want to say one thing, that is, that we realise that the farmer has problems and it is time the Minister realised it, too, and did something effective about them and stopped making pedantic, ponderous, airy-fairy statements about the farming situation. That is fraught with dangers and difficulties. There is not one of us who is more than a generation removed from the land. These are the men against whom, in 1966—the 50th anniversary of the 1916 Rising—we use the spurious device of an Emergency Powers Act to give them their ride, not on the hobbyhorse of success but in the Black Maria of an Irish Government.

As a representative from one of the principal dairying counties in the country, I, too, should like to ask the Minister to consider and to grant, if at all possible, an increase in the milk price. I appreciate the Minister's concern for the farmer and particularly for the small farmer. It well behoves any Fianna Fáil Minister for Agriculture to treat the interests of the farming community in the fashions of the past because despite the lack of knowledge of the last speaker on this matter, Deputy Collins, the farmers have received substantial increases in grants under Fianna Fáil. Indeed they have received the best deals in agriculture from Fianna Fáil Ministers. I have no doubt the present Minister has the capacity and the sincerity to act in the interests of the farmers and will endeavour to meet their demands as far as finances allow.

It is regrettable that the course of action of picketing the Dáil has been taken and even more regrettable that decent members of the farming community—they are all decent men—who have been picketing have been taken into custody. But one aspect of this which must be mentioned is that every section of the community must obey the law which provides that nobody may picket within a half-mile of Leinster House when it is in session. It would be a travesty of justice if one section were allowed to do it rather than another and certainly if a precedent were ever set for such a picket succeeding, a bulldozer would not get you through Molesworth Street or Kildare Street. The farmers in their own interests and the organisation instigating the picket would by ceasing to picket save embarrassment for the Government, for Deputies and for themselves, and would avoid any spark that might set off by a precedent, if it were once established that members of the Dáil, duly elected by all sections of the community, would be embarrassed or even eventually prevented from coming here.

We in Fianna Fáil appreciate the farmers' problem and I am confident that something will be done for them, but it is more difficult to expect that a Minister in the present situation can negotiate or deal with the matter. I make a verbal plea to the organisers of these pickets to have them withdrawn. It has become fashionable for Deputies to act as telegram boys, sending wires here and there protesting or encouraging, as the case may be. I do not believe in this but in honest, straightforward facts and I ask that commonsense shall prevail at all levels in all negotiations.

It is to the credit of the farmers, and for this they must be applauded, that they have not withdrawn an essential service from the people. They have merely demonstrated in a very orderly and dignified fashion and have not withdrawn essential services as they very well could do if they held up, let us say, milk supplies to hospitals and other institutions. That would really be what has happened in the very recent past—denying essential services to all members of the community. They have not used that weapon and I thank them for their concern for the national good in not contemplating or using that weapon.

It is very gratifying to me as a rural Deputy to find, despite Deputy Collins's remarks, to the effect that Fianna Fáil had done nothing for the farming community, that expansion in aid to the farming community under Fianna Fáil in the past ten years from 1956-57 to 1966-67 has meant an increase of £35,170,000. At the present rate this year's Estimate will be £52,482,000. This can be broken down into various subheads. The subsidy for dairy products rose from £2,711,000 to £12,640,000. The subsidy on bacon from a mere £20,000 to £2,350,000. The fertiliser subsidy has increased from £690,000 to £4,860,000. The calf heifer grants were not in operation in 1956-57 but this year they are estimated to cost £2.5 million. The TB eradication scheme which then cost £441,000 is now costing £1,482,000. Brucellosis eradication was not undertaken then but is now costing £382,000. Farm building grants have risen from £834,000 to £2,528,000. Education has risen from £279,000 to £904,000. Research has risen from £186,000 to £1,682,000. Advisory services have gone from £284,000 to £726,000. Relief of rates has increased from £4,929,000 to £13,520,000.

Looking at these figures, nobody can say with honesty that Fianna Fáil have not been mindful of the farmers. These increases represent a 300 per cent increase in the total assistance given to agriculture and it is surely indicative of Fianna Fáil concern for the farmers and gives the lie to the suggestion that Fianna Fáil could not be and are not the farmers' Government.

We certainly appreciate the hard work, long hours and grave financial risks that farmers must take in their vocation. We know that farmers have not the same type of planned business as others have; it is dependent on weather, fluctuating prices outside the control of our Government, markets abroad and supply and demand difficulties also outside our control.

The present demand by the ICMSA is for 4d a gallon increase in the price of milk on the first 7,000 gallons of each supplier each year. Like any other good section of the farming community, I feel they are asking more than they expect to get and this is a matter for negotiation, but I am concerned with one factor in this dispute. If this increase, or any increase is granted, the same results will follow as have followed in the case of other schemes, however beneficial they may appear on paper: the big man will always get an advantage. To help the small farmer, the ICMSA should put forward a suggestion for not merely a two-tier price but for a three-or fourtier price that will benefit the man whose acres or capital will not allow him to make any increase in production and to ensure that he will benefit not merely by £10 or £15 per cow per year but may look forward to £25 or £30 per cow. These are the matters that must cause concern to the small farmer. Many small farmers can be deluded by fanciful expression of their claims for increases. The granting of 1d on the basic gallon would cost roughly £2 million, while 1d on quality milk would cost between £700,000 and £800,000.

During the past two years, State expenditure on price support for milk has risen by over £4 million and this year the total will amount to no less than £12½ million. The claim as made at present, if granted, obviously, would involve heavily increased taxation, or, alternatively, an increase of about 1/-in the lb on butter. This, certainly, would not be in the interests of the community at large or, indeed, of many farmers, some of whom do not supply milk to creameries. Many of those who do supply milk are small farmers with large families who would lose in the long run. If the ICMSA claims were accepted, there would be an increase in the price of milk delivered loose or bottled and this again would affect the weaker sections of the community.

There must be, therefore, a complete break from the normal type of increases and the way they would be financed. I agree some of the way with what Deputy Corry has said in relation to the heifer scheme. The main purpose of the heifer scheme was to increase the cattle population and it has achieved that purpose. That scheme was introduced only five years ago and has resulted in an increase of 263,555 cows and an increase in the number of in-calf heifers of 71,718. These figures indicate very clearly the success achieved by the heifer scheme. The aims were certainly achieved fully. To divert this £2½ million which is estimated this year for it to price support for milk would maintain the figures of cow population that have been achieved and would certainly go some of the way towards reducing any increase in the price of butter that might be necessary, thus cushioning the effects on the weaker section of the community if, indeed, an increase in butter prices had to be effected.

It is well to note, when Fine Gael members wish to disparage the action of the Government at the present time in relation to milk prices, and so on, that their Minister, Deputy Dillon, as Minister for Agriculture, in a speech to Waterford County Committee of Agriculture at Dungarvan on 18th March, 1950, asked if the right course to pursue then was to fix a price of 290/- for butter and informed all cooperative creameries that if they were not in a position to dispose of their output on a more profitable basis anywhere else, the Government would accept whatever butter was offered at 290/-.

Let us reflect on what that meant at the time. Let us analyse that offer of 290/- in relation to what could then be paid for milk. On the costings returned to the Department of Agriculture in 1949, a year before Deputy Dillon delivered his ultimatum and the only figures available to me now, it took 256 gallons of milk to produce one cwt of butter. At 1/- a gallon, it would leave 34/- only for labour, transport, manufacturing costs and packaging, et cetera. Surely, Deputy Dillon was not very au fait with the situation when this was what he was expecting farmers to be satisfied with? Since then, the position has changed to the benefit of the farmers, and in no small measure thanks to Fianna Fáil initiative. Many of the creameries at that time were in a position to pay only 10d or 11½d if left to their own devices and the price obtaining at that time was 1/2 a gallon. Deputy Dillon was suggesting a reduction in their income of 2d a gallon. It is very easy for him and his colleagues to say that Fianna Fáil are not treating the farmers justly.

Certainly, we do not wish to deny anyone or any section of the community an increase in living standards and I for one would wish that the dairy farmers would be allowed to enjoy an increase in their living standards, but many Fine Gael Deputies cannot, as far as I am concerned, blow hot and cold, castigating Fianna Fáil for not granting immediately any demands made on them, while in the very recent past their own Minister wished the dairy farmers to take a reduction in their prices at that time.

On 9th March, as reported in the Official Report, Volume 221, column 1297, the Minister for Finance said:

The review of the prospects for 1966 suggests that global and per caput farm income should, at any rate, increase sufficiently to maintain the relative income position of farmers in the economy, provided the growth of money incomes in the non-agricultural sector is moderate, as the Government consider it must be. Should, however, the income position of farmers deteriorate during the year the Government will review the situation in the light of all the circumstances prevailing.

What the Minister for Finance forecast at that stage has happened. There has been a diminution of farmers' incomes by virtue of increased rates and by the increase granted in the very recent past to agricultural workers. None of us on this side of the House denies the right or the entitlement of the agricultural workers to a just wage and to an adequate increase but any such increase must be borne by the farmers. Therefore, we must take it that the farmers have again dropped something of their income and it is now time and opportune for the Minister to implement his statement of 9th March.

A matter which has been scarcely referred to during the debate is the effect of the Anglo-Irish Free Trade Agreement. This is one of the best and most welcomed agreements in connection with Irish agriculture as such and it opens up new fields in relation to prices and new hopes for further markets for the Irish farmer. The Agreement provides for the extension of the British guarantee payments to 25,000 tons of Irish carcase beef and 5,500 tons of Irish carcase lamb per annum; the reduction from three months to two months in the waiting period during which Irish store cattle, store sheep and store lambs have to be held on British farms to qualify for the fat stock guarantee payments; and the abolition of the differential of ¾d per lb. between the rates of guarantee payment on British-bred sheep and lambs and those on Irish sheep and lambs fattened in Britain. This has helped in no uncertain fashion to get a better and more sustained price for carcase beef going to Britain, which, after all, is our greatest customer and buys approximately £150 million worth of agricultural produce per annum.

The butter quota has been raised from 12,905 tons to 23,000 tons for the year ending March, 1967. This again is a good omen and we must avail of this to the fullest extent. Our total exports in 1965 in agricultural produce were valued at £224 million roughly, as compared with £222 million in 1964, an increase of £2 million. This again is something we must appreciate, in the knowledge that in the main it has gone into the coffers of the Irish farmers. Therefore it is gratifying to see the efforts being made to expand our exports and also the incomes of farmers.

Deputy Collins mentioned that we were not sufficiently concerned with the EEC countries. Last year we got roughly £16.6 million worth of business from these countries. This business could be developed to a far greater extent and a more dynamic marketing of our produce in these countries would be bound to benefit us. In all these countries, our prices are away below what they would normally pay and certainly it is merely a question of quality and quantity afterwards but we must maintain the highest possible quality in all these markets. There is no place in the modern world, where money has become plentiful, for second-rate products. Even the give-away shops with the shoddy article are finding this out for themselves. The top grade article, irrespective of whether or not it is a few shillings dearer, is the one being opted for by the customer. So, too, with agricultural produce. It must be the very best and nothing less than the best. This year the Minister has provided £13,000 for the prevention of diseases in animals and this includes £8,000 for the publicising of warble fly eradication measures. This is very essential because of the vast losses in animals due to diseases of one type or another.

Hear, hear—in the past six months.

I was glad to see also that £5,000 has been given by way of grants to the local authorities for the erection of sheep dipping tanks. This is of tremendous significance, particularly to South Tipperary where heretofore sheep rearing was only on a limited scale but has now become a major part of the farmers' activities there. Sheep rearing has increased immeasurably and the town in which I live has become renowned for catering, in the best possible way, for the sheep farmers because it has practically the largest sheep sales in Munster. Ten or fifteen years ago, only a small volume of business was transacted at the sale but nowadays the sale goes on for two or three days and buyers and suppliers come from the far ends of the county. Unfortunately, the recent inclement weather and various other factors have led to heavy losses of sheep in the Nire Valley and in the mountain regions of Newcastle. I would ask the Minister, having regard to the very special circumstances of these industrious people, to see if something could be done to cushion the effects of the blow which they have sustained. They have lost vast numbers of sheep and their losses in money terms are astronomical. Many of them have no other source of livelihood; they depend completely for their income on the sheep they rear and graze on the mountainside. The bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme has been an unqualified success.

Hear, hear.

Unfortunately, there are some who, in a limited way, would abuse this scheme. That is a very shortsighted policy on their part because if any breakdown due to fraudulent activities takes place it could well jeopardise all the money, effort and time spent on this scheme. A sum of £56,588,000 has been spent on the scheme to date and it would be a pity if any one person, or group of persons, for base or selfish motives, should jeopardise the future ability of the farmer to enjoy the harvest he can reap because of the implementation of the scheme over the entire country. As I stated before, our cow population has increased in the past five years from 1,283,687 to 1,547,442. This brings with it its own problems.

Hear, hear.

As a result of the increase, there is an increased production in milk, and as we all know, we are paying heavy subsidies to foreign markets to purchase our milk products, and if the greater production is to be channelled into butter only, then the greater must be a tax on our resources to subsidise it. A much different approach should be adopted to the disposal of milk and its by-products. We should try to encourage greater diversification of milk products. We should encourage the setting up of de-mineralised grading plants which produce one of the major components of baby food which, I am told, has a tremendous potential in undeveloped countries. If we could encourage this type of endeavour, it would certainly redound to the benefit of the dairy farmer and also of the Exchequer.

The Exchequer allowance to creameries to enable the price paid to milk producers to be increased has been at the rate of 4d per gallon since 1st May 1964. The cost of this allowance in 1965-66 was £6½ million and in view of the anticipated increase in milk production, it is estimated that it will cost over £7 million this year. These figures clearly indicate the situation which will eventually result from the ever-increasing cow population and from the production of milk for supplying the creameries. One of the greatest "musts" in our present situation is to endeavour to extend the activities of the dairying industry in as many branches as possible. Certainly if the rate of growth is maintained in the next few years as it has been in the past few years, it will bog down eventually because we will not have the capacity to pay for it.

There is little else I have to say but I would again appeal that common sense prevail, that negotiations take place and that the claims of the interested parties be discussed dispassionately and with a full knowledge of all the circumstances and that the obstacles which at present hinder the negotiations be removed with the assistance of the president of the organisation concerned.

I do not intend to delay the House very long on this very important subject, but, having listened to Deputy Davern, I am amazed that there is any discontent in the country. One would think that even the farmers outside the gates of this House were never better off than under a Fianna Fáil Government. I come from a county where there is good farming stock, mainly small farmers, and I often wonder when I hear people talking of farming, if they know the difference between the rancher and the hardworking small farmer. This Government, and other Governments before them, have tried to help the farmers but they have tried to do so in the wrong way. Every grant given is given on the basis that the recipient must be able to avail of it.

If a farmer wants to build a cow house or a piggery, he can get generous grants for that purpose but a vast number of them are not able to avail of these grants. The time has come when such grants should be given on a valuation basis, and the smaller the valuation, the higher should be the grant. In that way, the Government would be giving help to the people most in need of it. If the Government cannot agree to give these grants on a valuation basis, they could devise a scheme by which they would give the larger grants to the farmers under a certain valuation. County councils have schemes by which farmers with less than £5 valuation can get grants but I would not call these farmers at all. The term "farmer" can include a man with ten or 15 acres and others with 200, 300 and 400 acres. The men with these large farms have the ready money and are able to avail of the grants.

I was amazed to hear different Government speakers tell us how prosperous the farmers are today. I can say that the tillage farmer in North Tipperary is worse off today than he was 18 years ago. I remember when barley was making 84/- and wheat a whole lot more than it is today. Despite the increased cost of living and increased wages, the farmers' prices for these crops have reduced. No Government can afford to neglect to induce the farmer to grow barley, wheat and oats because these crops mean a lot to employment. I can see the day—I hope I am wrong in this— when our sugar factories will close down because the farmer is not getting a decent price for his rotation crops. This year the Thurles sugar factory, employing 600 or 700 men, had only a half season because the farmers were not able to put in a rotation crop, owing to the bad weather. The farmers are not growing sugar beet and are going back to grass because tillage is not paying. If the Government fail to keep up the price of grain, it is only natural that the acreage under green crops will fall. Every year licences are granted for the importation of oats for feeding. That should not be allowed. The Irish farmer should be encouraged and paid for the growing of oats, barley and wheat.

The small farmer who supplies milk to the creameries in North Tipperary gets about 1/9 per gallon for it. Out of that, he has to pay 3d a gallon to the lorry owner who takes the milk from his gate. The Minister tells the House that the price of milk in the towns is 7½d per pint. How can there be such a difference between the price paid to the producer and that paid by the consumer? There is too big a gap between the two. There should be a closer relationship between the supplier and the consumer. Speakers in this House have said that the person who supplies milk is not too badly off but these people should remember that the cost of producing any article has gone up substantially, last year more than the year before and this year more than last year.

Creamery suppliers do not do any tillage and have no stock. They just have so many cows. When the cow drops, they sell the suck calf. This year the price of the suck calf is down by £10 per head on last year. Take the small farmer Fianna Fáil talk about so often. I regard the small farmer as the man with ten or 20 cows. The man with 20 cows, even though he got the same price for milk, has dropped £200 on the sale of suck calves alone. Therefore, I do not know how Fianna Fáil Deputies can say the farmer is as well off as ever he was.

The heifer scheme did not do much to help the small farmer but it helped the rancher. Again, it was a case where the big farmer could buy 20 or 30 heifers, in-calf or not in-calf, and qualify for the £15 grant in respect of each calf. Afterwards, he could sell the heifer dry and get the value for it. But the small farmer had not the cattle or land to avail of this scheme. I have one crow to pluck with the Minister.

Only one?

I had a case of a farmer in Ballina, County Tipperary, who had a herd of four cows. He had only 11 acres of land. The Land Commission took a farmer from that area, brought him up to a good farm and divided up his original farm. They gave this small farmer I speak of 17 acres to add to the acreage he had. This small farmer was hardworking and his security was good. He raised the money for five heifers from the Agricultural Credit Corporation and bought them. They produced five calves. However, the Minister refused to give that man the subsidy for his five calves on the ground that the man before him had carried so many cows on that farm that the allottee was not qualified. The Minister did not take into account that the Land Commission gave the Forestry Division 47 acres of that farm. The Forestry Division do not run any cows.

They should not.

They do not apply for the calf subsidy. The Forestry Division got the portion of land on which the previous man used to run the cows. The small farmer I speak of still owes the Agricultural Credit Corporation the five £15.

This is a case which should be reviewed by the Minister.

Has the Deputy written to me about it?

The Minister has letters on it. I can show him the letter stating that due to the fact that the previous farmer ran so many cattle on the land, the applicant was not entitled to the subsidy. I am pointing out that there are different classifications of farmer. The Minister and his colleague talk about the £3 million going to the farmer. That money is not going to the people I represent.

They should get it in inverse ratio.

It is going to the average farmer, the one farmer who does not exist.

It is leaving here.

What we are worrying about is where is it going.

Now we will hear Deputy Tierney.

We can all lend a hand.

I do not know whether the Minister will be there for a long or a short time.

A very short time.

The gentlemen sitting behind him may have come from farming stock. They started school at six years of age, remained on until 14 or 15 and went to university. I do not think they have the touch of the land, the touch of the people. Every scheme on paper does not come down to the people I represent—the honest, hard-working farmer, the man who has to take his coat off from Monday morning until Saturday night, the man who has to try to rear his family and have them as well dressed as the next-door neighbours' children.

I hope the day is not far distant when the Government will have to subsidise the small man who has to employ a labourer. At present he is not able to afford a decent wage for his labourer. The wage the agricultural labourer is getting today is not sufficient to keep his wife and family. If we are to keep the agricultural labourer, there will have to be some scheme whereby farmers will be subsidised in order to keep their workers on the land.

Some of them; not all of them. Many of them could afford to pay more. They are getting away on this minimum wage.

Many of them would pay more if they were able to afford it. There are many people who could keep a man but who do not. There are many more who keep men but who cannot afford to give them a living wage.

Farm labourers are a rare commodity nowadays.

I will conclude by wishing the Minister success in his difficult job. I know he is doing his best, but his best is not very good.

I shall try to do better.

(South Tipperary): I listened with interest, for a change, to Deputy Corry. He raised some controversial points. I was particularly interested in his description of a food-processing plant in his area which, according to him, has been an outstanding success. It impressed me particularly because we are all aware that food-processing is a highly competitive business. In my own county of Tipperary, where we have Erin Foods in operation, they are finding it extremely difficult so far to make it a viable concern and I would like the Minister to say something about our food-processing industry as he sees it, because it is one of extreme importance, and one in which we ought to take an interest, particularly as regards the future.

Deputy Corry went on to say he thought the heifer scheme should now be scrapped in so far as, I gathered from him, it had achieved its purpose. Certainly it is open to criticism in that it would appear to have helped to an excessive degree some of the larger, ranch-type of farmers and also probably people who were never traditionally dairy farmers and who may, when they have taken their first cut off the heifer scheme, cease to be dairy farmers in the future. Whether the calf scheme which operates in Northern Ireland might have been a better one, I am not quite sure, but it does seem that there was an unexpected response to this heifer scheme which led us into the difficulty that we had, so to speak, an explosion of population among our cattle and now we find we cannot feed them. In-calf heifers require a lot more food than the ordinary type of animal, and I imagine when we come to make our estimation next autumn, or whenever it should be made, we shall find we have had quite high mortality this spring among our cattle and among those in-calf heifers on which we have already paid out £15. The factory in my county which handles these dead animals has never been so busy, I am told, as in the past couple of months.

Ordinarily, it is difficult to estimate how bad the position is. One hears rumours and then, on the other hand, there is always the factor that if a farmer loses a couple of animals, he tries to hide it immediately from his neighbours because it is rather a reflection on him that he was not able to provide food for his animals. If two or three of them die, it appears he comes into odium among his neighbours if it is found out, and he tends to hide the fact.

I would ask the Minister to say if he can help us in any way as regards flooding. This affects every county, and in my area of south Tipperary, we have in one part containing some of our best land 150 acres completely flooded, with seagulls flying around it, and it is in that condition since last February. I brought the matter before our county council to see if they could do anything about the valuation and the rates, and they are looking into that aspect. They told me some of the land would have to be re-seeded because when the water has receded, the grass is dead. There is one farmer there 80 per cent of whose land is gone. Another farmer had to leave his house but he has gone back, and a third farmer has not gone back as yet. One or two of these men have no other source of income and their land is virtually gone. In the four cases I have in mind, they are excellent farmers and that is why I mention that particularly.

Another matter which has been brought to my notice is that of compensation for warble fly treatment. This excellent treatment, so important to our cattle industry and our hide industry, does apparently occasionally upset the health of cattle. It would seem that even when it is properly administered, sometimes the cattle fail afterwards. It must be a very hard thing to assess if a man makes a claim that he lost cattle and that he sustained some financial loss. However, there is a case and I should like the Minister to say whether he has any machinery in his Department for dealing with the odd case that will arise, where a man, through no fault of his own and in trying to carry out this treatment, sustains a loss. I believe that where a genuine loss is proved, to preserve the credit of the scheme and to preserve goodwill towards it, the case should be investigated and something done about it.

According to the Minister's brief, and we all know it, it looks as if for the coming year there will be a substantial drop in our beet acreage and in our acreage under cereals. This question of beet growing concerns me in so far as we have a factory in Thurles and there is considerable distress in Thurles town as to what the future of the factory will be. There has been considerable unemployment. The factory is not getting in the beet because the farmers are not growing it. It is a very laborious crop and, apart altogether from the spring we have had, I doubt if the acreage would have remained as it was last year.

I do not know about the financial complications of the sugar industry and I appreciate that some increase in the price of beet will occasion an increase in the price of sugar. However, if the beet industry and the sugar factories are to survive, the Minister will have to consider seriously the question of advancing the price of beet. The general evidence available is that the farmers simply will not grow it in sufficient quantities, under the present payment system, to keep our factories going and our employment in these areas as it was.

Deputy Davern spoke here and apparently had made a very thorough study of the Minister's speech. I was pleased that he expressed his sympathy with the dairy farmers and his confidence that a solution will shortly be found. I agree with him that a solution will shortly be found. I can even take the risk of prophesying when it will be found, before 1st June.

The various aids to agriculture have been mentioned by Deputy Davern, the substantial increase in these aids down through the years. Most of the schemes under which these aids are given were introduced, I would remind the House, by Deputy Dillon as Minister for Agriculture in a former Government, and if the amounts given now seem big, we must take into consideration the fall in the purchasing power of money. However, as a rural Deputy, I am always only too pleased to see any extra amount of money being made available to the agricultural industry, particularly if that money is calculated to increase production, and I am glad the Minister, even in these difficult times, was able to provide the amount he has provided.

The sheep dipping scheme is operated by the county councils. I do not know whether the technical aspects of it have been properly worked out. There have been some complaints about the penning of sheep. It has been suggested, too, that a system of mobile tanks might be better than fixed ones. In Cork, there is a system of mobile tanks and apparently that system has some virtue. It might be desirable to have a uniform system. Perhaps the Minister would examine the scheme in operation in different counties to see if it can be improved upon. His Department might examine the scheme operating in Cork to see if it has any special advantages. There is certainly some dissatisfaction with the present system. Sheep now have to be dipped twice in the year and it is difficult to bring a large herd of sheep to a tank for dipping. The Minister might examine the matter to see if any improvements can be devised.

It has been suggested that the increased cattle population and increased milk production present a problem from the point of view of subsidisation and that diversification would somehow resolve that problem. I think it was Deputy Davern who said that. That is not quite correct because for some years now subsidisation has been extended to dairy products other than butter. I do not know whether there would be a saving in subsidisation by diversification to, say, some other dairy product. I do not know whether it is cheaper to subsidise milk used for cheese or chocolate crumb than to subsidise milk for the production of butter. I have not been able to analyse the figures but I am sure the Minister is familiar with them.

The Minister dealt with the two-tier price for creamery milk which is being advocated by the Creamery Milk Suppliers Association. He does not seem to like that system. He objects to it on the ground of cost; he objects to it on the ground of expansion. It would, he alleges, discourage expansion of dairy herds. One more cow— a dictum of a former Minister for Agriculture—would mean looking for one more penny per gallon.

One more acre under the plough.

(South Tipperary): That is correct.

A great many people do not believe in that now, you know. They believe in getting out of tillage altogether.

(South Tipperary): The Minister objects to the two-tier price because it would discourage large-scale production. Large-scale production is a social philosophy. At what are we aiming? One more cow, one more acre under the plough, might favour large-scale production.

What about one more sow?

(South Tipperary): Social thinking enters into the picture here. What kind of rural community are we aiming at? I believe that those who advocate a two-tier milk price believe in the retention of the small farm as a viable unit in our community. If we depart from that and if we believe that economics are the sole criterion upon which to plan our future, then the two-tier system does not apply and large-scale production would be the order of the day. That would appear to be the Minister's mentality. It would be economically cheaper, I suppose, to have 2,000 acre farms with large scale production than to have a series of small farms. But we are dealing with an essentially social problem, the attempted preservation of the small farmer. In that respect there is a great deal to be said for the concept of the two-tier price system, or something along those lines. If one looks at it from the viewpoint of an American, the big farm and large-scale production would be good business. It would, perhaps, find favour in the eyes of the professional economist, but, from the social point of view, it has not much to recommend it.

In any claim made by the agricultural community for an increased price for milk or any other product, one is immediately faced with the difficulty that those who consume these goods will be against that increase. An increase in the price of agricultural produce will not find favour with the city dweller. His immediate reaction is that he will have to pay more for his butter and more for his bottle of milk and, on such proportion of the industry as is exported, he will have to pay more in taxation in order to subsidise it. I think, however, that these people should realise the extreme importance of agriculture to our economy.

In this little country of ours, we consistently have an import excess and there is the problem of bringing up our exports to balance our imports. We are faced with a recurrent balance of payments problem and we are dependent upon surplus agricultural production for export. Let us examine the figures for the calendar year 1965. We imported agricultural goods for further production to the value of £18 million and we were able to export agricultural produce to the value of £120 million. That £18 million worth of agricultural imports gave us that export, whereas industrial imports for further production amounted to £200 million, while our industrial exports amounted only to £80 million. There are the extreme contrasts. That position is wholly defensible because of the question of employment. If agriculture gave an expanding employment, the position would be very happy but unfortunately the converse is the fact. Like most countries, we are faced with a declining agricultural population and with increasing agricultural production. I mention these figures to illustrate the extreme importance of agriculture to our economy as a primary export, an export with very little import content.

While it is important to try to establish our industries particularly from the point of view of employment, the community must realise that an industry which is bringing in £18 million worth of agricultural imports for further production and which gives us an export of £120 million is a terrifically important industry in our economy, faced, as we are, with the converse of, say, the American economy where merchandise exports are traditionally bigger than merchandise imports. The agricultural industry is the one dependable economy that we have. That is the picture of our economy last year when we had to face, with a total import figure of £371 million, an unprecedented trade deficit of £150 million.

It is frequently mentioned that the farmers are subsidised for everything. That is mentioned particularly by non-rural people, people who have probably just picked it up from somebody else in a bar room. What are the actual figures? There are no calendar figures for aids, either to industry or agriculture, but there are figures covering the financial years. The only comparable figures I have are those for the financial years 1965-66 and the total aids for 1965-66. By that I mean price supports plus the various aids to agricultural services or industrial services. The total aids to agriculture came to £53.58 million and the total aids to industry came to £56.86 million. That was the position the year before, as well. I have not gone back any farther but I presume that, for a number of years, that has roughly been the position. By and large, a slightly extra amount of money is given to the aid of industry compared with agriculture, but agriculture is predominantly the important industry from the point of view of our exports, our trading position and particularly our balance of payments.

Over the years, there has been a disparity between the income of the farming community and that of many other sections of our community. That is not a story of today or yesterday. Furthermore, for a few years now, we have been suffering from a rather acute inflation and it has hit the farming community as it has hit most other people. Certain sections have escaped that inflationary trend. Insurance companies, banks and speculators do well in an inflationary period. The insurance company can borrow money when times are good and give it back when times are not so good. The banks can act in a somewhat similar way. The speculator can move into the Stock Exchange. Governments have a vested interest in inflation—this Government, every Government. Our national debt amounted to £714 million at the end of this financial year. It costs £55.4 million per year to service it, which is roughly £1 million a week. In a community which it is costing £1 million per week to run, the House will appreciate that the Government have an interest in inflation. They have to make some attempt to pay back some of this debt. It is far easier to pay it back when money is less valuable than when they borrowed it.

The farming community have no hedge against inflation. The cost of living goes up for the farmer just as it does for everybody else. He is dependent for his income on what the Minister quite properly describes as an unremunerative market. The British market, where most of our agricultural produce is sold, is a world food dump. Many sections of our community have had a hedge, in varying degrees, against inflation but the agricultural community, as such, have been able to secure no hedge against a progressive inflation which has hit it over the past few years. This particular spring was extremely unsatisfactory. We had the heaviest rainfall in April since 1904. Farmers could not put down their crops and were faced with carrying very large cattle numbers, something not entirely unrelated to the heifer scheme. They had no provisions for their animals; cattle dropped £10 per head and there was a high mortality. The farmers read in the newspapers that very untimely status increases costing £5 million or £6 million had been given to higher civil servants. The Garda secured £500,000 and the Government accepted a guideline of £1 per week increase for wage and salary earners. The banks produced record dividends and profits and in that atmosphere it is quite understandable —we could not expect much else—that there was considerable dissatisfaction among the farmers. That is why you have outside Leinster House today members of that organisation marching and demanding justice. That is why you have another branch of farmers invading the Minister's office seeking a conference.

Apart from that, they are faced with mounting rates, the only taxation system which the majority of them must meet, but, as it is, it has been increasing over the years. They found that if they wanted credit, they could not get it at their banks and they found it increasingly difficult to get it from the Agricultural Credit Corporation, that certain restrictions apply there also. That is the plight in which these people now find themselves. What they are demanding, and I think it is a just demand, is that they should get an increased price for their agricultural produce and that the Minister should honour his pledge, which I understand he has given, that he would try to equate the incomes of the agricultural community and those of other sections.

The Minister is to be criticised for allowing this development to proceed so far but that seems to be typical of the Government. They have come to regard strikes—to use the expression of the Minister for Industry and Commerce—as merely growing pains. We had the Minister for Transport and Power, in reference to the very important ESB strike, making an eleventh hour phone call in an effort to avert a strike which would paralyse the entire economy, something with which he should clearly have dealt long before that. There is also the bank strike which will affect the Minister's Department in that the marts will be closed. The tourism industry, which is so important to our balance of payments problem which I have mentioned, will be adversely affected. Nothing has so far been done to avert these two upsets to our economy. The present Minister for Agriculture sits there fighting the issue with the Creamery Milk Suppliers Association.

I put down a Parliamentary Question dealing specifically with the price of milk over the past decade. I have heard this talk of 1/- a gallon by Deputies who are farmers and it has been bandied about several times in this House. I have never been able to understand it; I must ask Deputy Dillon to explain it some day. The figures given here go back to 1956 and the Parliamentary Question and the reply today show that the average price per gallon of milk in 1956 was 18.54d. The average price in 1965 is 22.45d per gallon. Since 1963, the farmers have had deducted from their milk price 1?d per gallon which is levied on every gallon of milk, whether turned into butter for home or export consumption or for whatever purpose it is used. So I am deducting that from the 22.45d per gallon they are getting in 1965, and unless my arithmetic is wrong, that gives an increase between 1956 and 1965 of 2½d per gallon.

In view of the cost of living in 1965 and the cost of living in 1956, does that represent an adequate increase? We must remember that the purchasing power of money has fallen roughly by half. I cannot give absolute figures but I know that the purchasing power of the £ now is 15/- compared with 1961. I think it is roughly true that in 1956 the purchasing power of the £ was double what it is now but in all these years farmers have got an effective increase of only 2½d.

We shall be told they have got all sorts of help in other ways, in grants and aids. I admit subsidies and aids and grants have been given but they have also been given to industry and to a comparable extent. I put down a Parliamentary Question asking the Minister for Finance to tell me how much of the money given in aids to farmers may actually be deemed to pass into the farmers' pockets. For instance, we have spent up to date about £40 million on bovine tuberculosis eradication but let us not forget that of that expenditure up to 31st March, 1965, £10,750,000 was given out in fees to vets. One cannot say that went into the farmers' pockets. Similarly, you cannot maintain that money given out to aid fertilisers of necessity goes into the farmers' pockets. Many of these payments are indirect payments and cannot be deemed to have passed into the farmers' pockets.

You might equally argue that a fee paid to a surgeon to save a man's life was of no benefit to him.

(South Tipperary): I would argue this, that a fee paid by a surgeon to an accountant to carry out an audit does not put one penny into the surgeon's pocket. The Minister is an accountant.

I do not see the relevance.

The Minister may not want to.

(South Tipperary): In any case, I have got the reply which the Minister for Finance gave me that, according to his calculation, about £47 million worth of the grants given to agriculture actually pass into the farmers' pockets. I do not accept that at all. I doubt if any Deputy on either side of the House who is a farmer would agree with the Minister for Finance or with the Minister for Agriculture, if he puts up that argument that nine-tenths or more of the £50 million odd given to aid agriculture passes directly into the pocket of the farmer.

We write out the payable orders every day.

(South Tipperary): Yes, but not to farmers.

They are all we deal with.

(South Tipperary): I submit that the claim made by the agricultural section of our economy is a very just claim which will have to be met. Here we have one-third of the population producing two-thirds of our exports and receiving only one-fifth of the national income.

It is difficult to get any consistent figures of what is a farmer's income. The NFA claim that the average income per farmer and family worker is £7 4s. 6d per week. That is for a seven day week of unfixed hours and associated in most cases with a large capital investment in farm, stock and machinery. It is claimed that there is a £300 gap between the income of a farmer and family worker and the average earnings in the transportable goods industry. This is a £300 gap which they have been agitating about. It is up to the Minister to rebut these figures when replying if he can produce statistical evidence that what I say is untrue or an exaggeration of the picture.

I might point out, indeed, that only across the Border, in Northern Ireland, the average price paid by the Northern Ireland Milk Marketing Board for corresponding production is 2/11. It is 1/8 or 1/9 here, although I did hear today that the Minister for Health told them in Limerick that he would give them, I think it was, 2/9. That was before the election. I suppose we will not hear about that until the Presidential election starts.

The Deputy's memory is good.

(South Tipperary): I am delighted to see Deputy Burke here. I appreciate, of course, that, as we are placed, increased milk production does present us with a problem in so far as we cannot sell it at an economic price or export it at an economic price. It is costing us, I suppose, about £150 per ton to subsidise our butter on the British market and probably it will cost us more on other markets when we have to go to other parts of the world. The average subsidisation price last year was £150 million. I think that is the sum Bord Bainne had to disburse between the price they got and what they had to pay.

We must view that subsidisation in the light of the importance to our economy of the associated product of milk, our cattle industry. The milk producing areas of this country are the breeding ground, the origin, of our cattle industry. Our cattle industry is the economy on which our survival hinges and well the Minister knows, as well as every Deputy knows, that our only hope of getting even half right next autumn will be if we have a good supply of store cattle to export and if we can get a reasonably good price for it.

I recognise the difficulty of the situation but that does not excuse the Minister in not facing up to a situation which has been impending for a long time. That does not excuse him leaving it until the matter becomes so aggravated that a solution will be progressively more difficult.

The Minister cannot escape a suspicion that he has been trying to aggravate, and perhaps capitalise upon, the differences which regrettably have been existing for some time between the two major agricultural organisations. It is right to recall that a few months ago when the telephone workers were marching outside this Leinster House, it was very clear to me, anyway, that the Government took the attitude of disregarding these people because they represented a breakaway union and it seemed to me to be Government policy that we should have and should promote integration of trade union movement. Yet, here, when it comes to the agricultural community, that policy is not pursued and the Minister stands accused by his actions and by his approach of deliberately trying to foster, foment, if not aggravate, the divisive tendencies already apparent and unfortunately present in farming representation.

Nonsense.

(South Tipperary): Would it not have been quite simple for the Minister—and I am not aware that he has done this and if he did do it, he should have given it the widest publicity—to say: “Look; there are two unions. I agree you have difficulties. Will each of you send me half a dozen men and I will talk to you together?” Would there be any difficulty in doing that?

Tripe: nonsense.

(South Tipperary): Do you think they would not go together? It seems to me that there would be no difficulty about doing it.

The Deputy does not understand the first thing about it. That is the most nonsensical statement made in the House today.

(South Tipperary): The Minister seeks to see the others behind closed doors. The Minister is obviously getting nettled because I put my finger exactly on what he has been doing. The Minister has a function, not alone to direct the agricultural industry here in the best possible fashion but surely to try to preserve and promote good relations between his Department and the people who produce the agricultural goods in our community. He has obviously gone out of his way to antagonise half of them. That is not a creditable performance on his part and it is not good for our national economy.

I appreciate the danger of all sorts of increases, whether in prices, wages or salaries. But let us remember this, and the farming community are aware of it, that in 1963 we were paying out in salaries and wages £380 million a year. In 1964, we increased that by the 12 per cent wage increase to buy two by-elections and the 1965 general election. Taking 1963 as the base year, the amount disbursed by the community in the two years since has been increased by £150 million. The Minister now cries about a couple of million pounds for the most important industry in the country representing one-third of the population.

I put down a Parliamentary Question to find out what is the coverage of this £150 million. I asked the Minister for Finance what would it cost to give an increase of £1 a week to the wage and salary earners of the country and his reply was that it would cost £35 million. If you divide that figure by 52, you get £760,000. That was in 1964 and 1965 when that £150 was disbursed without any attempt to control prices, £670,000 a week to buy two by-elections and the general election. The farming community who represent the backbone of our economy are now looking for a couple of million pounds and it cannot be got.

Stop making so much noise. It is not necessary. You sound like a three-card trick man.

(South Tipperary): That was the three-card trick of this decade, the three-card trick which your father-in-law pulled to keep in office and to keep you where you are.

Personalities are disorderly and should not be introduced in debate.

The Minister has today moved the Estimate for the Department of Agriculture which affords Deputies an opportunity of discussing all matters relating to agriculture. At the moment it is apparent that owing to the bad, wet spring, agricultural output this year will not be as high as anticipated. Cows will not produce as much as in normal circumstances and store cattle are in a very backward condition. The land is hardly dry enough to sow the grain crops.

The Minister mentioned that Deputies would expect him to say something about farm prices and incomes and he stated that he would shortly be in a position to announce specific measures designed to improve farm incomes. That must mean that he is going to give an increase in all farm incomes and the first thing that comes into our minds in connection with this is the members of the Creamery Milk Suppliers Association who are picketing outside the gates. They are picketing because they are looking for an increase in the price of milk. They can point out that because of increased overhead expenses in creameries, the price of milk will drop this year by about seven-eighths of a penny. They can also point out that the price of calves has dropped by an average of £10 a head. That is a lot to the small farmer with ten or 15 cows. It means about £100 less to him while his bill at the creamery will be about £100 more.

They also ask why it is that if arbitration awards can give big increases to civil servants and high-up officials, they should have to do with less. There is a great difference between this picketing and strike picketing. Where there is strike picketing, production ceases, but while these men are picketing at the gate, they are still producing. I doubt if they would be there at all today were it not for an item in the newspapers on last Saturday. The Minister had discussions with the NFA on last Friday and in the Cork Examiner of Saturday, a statement was published that any Government decision in relation to adjustments in farm incomes would be taken in the light of this review. The Minister now states that he is anxious to meet everybody. What appeared in the papers last Saturday seemed to suggest that he was going to deal with only one organisation. Now that he has opened up things again, perhaps we will have more progress.

The Minister has stated that he has set up a small study group comprising representatives of producers, exporters, An Foras Tionscal, UCD and his Department to examine all aspects of the store trade. I hope he has included the dairy farmers on that body. It is the dairy farmer who produces the calf that will turn into the store. It is from that angle that we will have to start in order to see that the dairyman will be able to produce the proper stores. Otherwise the whole business will go wrong. We in Cork, in the Cork Co-operative Marts, have already set up our own study group from the different marts and they are doing very well. They decided to see where their cattle and stores were going. They sent people to England and Wales and these people are at the moment reporting back and letting the marts know what their customers over there want. That is a great sign of cooperation between these marts.

The calved heifer scheme came into operation in January, 1964 and as I see it, it is very near its end. It was introduced to help our cow population generally and it was not of any great benefit to the small man. In regard to all those people with large numbers of heifers who drew the £15, I wonder if they are now going to keep it up. I do not think they are. I think they will buy store animals. As the amount provided for this scheme declines, it should be diverted to the incomes of the dairy farmers because it is the dairy farmer who will have to produce the store animal.

I notice in regard to artificial insemination that there has been a great change down through the years and at the moment the Friesians are a very popular breed. Recently, however, I was talking to somebody who told me that artificial insemination was the cause of all the scrub bulls. I do not know whether or not that is so. The ICMSA have been urging that a two-tier price for creamery milk be introduced and I notice from the Minister's brief that the Department do not like this very much. However, I would ask them to give it another look because I think it is a good idea. We have many small farmers with ten or 12 cows each and they produce 6,000 or 7,000 gallons of milk in the year. These are the people we will have to help. It is stated that one penny on the first 7,000 gallons would cost the Exchequer somewhere around £1¼ million and that one penny on all the milk would cost the Exchequer £2¼ million. The one penny on the first 7,000 gallons would give everybody about £29 7s. a year and 2d would give them £58. The 2d on the 7,000 gallons would cost as much as the one penny all round but the smaller man would get twice as much. It is on that line that we should go.

The average milk supplier, it is stated, is sending 3,600 gallons of milk to the creamery per year. That may be so, but as we all know, there may be 300 suppliers going to a creamery but many of them would have only one, two or three cows and would have another way of making a living. The average amount of milk per supplier who has to make his living from milk would be nearer 6,000 or 7,000 gallons a year. The Department are worried that such a scheme would be abused. That may be so. I believe that in the quality milk scheme we have lots of people, men and their wives, having creamery numbers. However, I do think that when it comes to the two-tier system, it should go to the farmer.

It is also stated that massive State assistance for the erection of diversification plants in many areas will be necessary. As regards reorganisation, I am not going to say much, but if there is to be reorganisation, they should put up plants through which they can diversify production, and go from butter to chocolate crumb and so on. In Cork, for instance, in one year butter may be going well, as I believe it is at present, and it is not costing the Exchequer' as much as was expected, but there may be the time when it will be going badly and that is why we should be able to change over.

In regard to the milk quality scheme results today show that about 42 per cent of all milk delivered to creameries has reached the requisite standard. That is correct although actually the number of suppliers qualifying would be from 30 to 35 per cent. This is costing the State roughly £600,000 or £700,000 and once again it is the bigger man who is gaining.

Reference is also made to the payments to the Pigs and Bacon Commission for the support of bacon exports and I want to restate something I said not long ago, that is, that the pig industry is in a fairly bad mess. I say that because at any mart or market you can see representatives from factories, which are perhaps 200 miles away, being able to pay more than the local man. When that happens there is something radically wrong. It is recognised that there is a four-year cycle in pig production. Starting at the first year, you come to your peak in the fourth year and thereafter drop again. Last year was the peak, it seems to us, and we are in for a drop this year. I hope it will not be much. It is one thing we should guard against. We are going to drop because a lot of the sows were sold and the breeding stock is not there.

There is also this question of the centralised marketing of pigs and the sooner it comes in the better. I have always wondered if this could be worked on somewhat similar lines as those on which the beet is worked, that is, to get the fattener to pay a few pence more per pig and have his own man to see if they are graded properly. There is often the slightest millimetre between Grade A specials and Grade B but it would mean 30/- or £2 more per pig to the seller.

We note here also that the acreage devoted to tillage is inclined to fall. I suppose the weather has a lot to do with that. On the other hand, it is noticeable that milk is inclined to go up. It is stated that after all the additional milk we have to subsidise it at the rate of something like 6½d per gallon.

The bovine tuberculosis eradication scheme is now drawing to a close. It has been a good success. It has cost some farmers a lot of money. They were very badly hit by it. It is the one thing that stopped an increase in the average milk yield per cow. In many cases the good cow went down in the test and had to be sold and the poor cow had to be kept. However, that will be straightened out now and the average yield per cow should be going up again.

The brucellosis scheme is now starting. It is a very necessary scheme and should be pushed forward as fast as possible. It is a sorry sight to see cattle that have aborted coming into marts. They come into the ring, are driven around and sold. Maybe half an hour later an in-calf heifer is brought into the same ring and sold. There is nothing in the world to stop the disease being transferred. I do not know how we can get around that: perhaps by having separate entrances. It is something that will have to be looked into because the disease was very rampant in the south this year.

I welcome the fact that there is to be a revision of the grants payable under the Land Project. The Minister has stated:

It was decided also, as an exceptional measure, that in the case of schemes which had been approved prior to the 1st April, 1964, and on which work had not been undertaken, the costings on which the grant offered had been based would be revised on completion of the work, in line with costs obtaining in March, 1966.

That is very necessary.

There is one very disquieting note here—the fact that we are not using as much fertiliser as we were or should. That is a sorry state of affairs because we cannot produce more without fertilisers. There is a bit of advertising going on, but the best advertising of all is payment for your results.

I notice that the Government have pledged a sum of £300,000 to the World Food Programme for the period 1963-1965. This is a very worthy cause. I also note that two-thirds will be given in the form of commodities and the balance in cash. I would ask the Minister to donate as much as possible in the form of commodities. It would suit us better and give as good service.

Our biggest worry in this country at present is to keep the small farmer going. It is the duty of everybody in this House to see that he is kept going because he is really the backbone of the country. In the past few years when money was fairly plentiful and one could raise money to buy land fairly easily, it was the bigger man who was always found more creditworthy by the banks and the Agricultural Credit Corporation. He nearly always got preference over the smaller man. As a result we often had the farmer with a lot of land buying still more land and the smaller man not able to stir. That is something we must view seriously.

The question of the agricultural labourer is a matter which requires serious investigation. Some scheme should be devised, either through an increase in farm income or more off the rates, whereby something would be paid to the farmer to enable him to pay his workers more. That would be a step in the right direction. At present the agricultural worker is no longer a man with a shovel working in the dyke. He is a highly skilled man who has to work on tractors and so on. The records show that the number of those engaged in agriculture is falling year after year.

I would appeal to the farmers' organisations to come together and work together for the benefit of everybody. They are doing no good at all by being apart. They are leaving themselves wide open for anybody, if he so wishes, to play one off against the other. If they could come together, they have a lot more to fight for than prices. They have to fight for the general life of the farming community. Cork Marts have shown what can be done when farmers join together. I conclude by hoping that the present deadlock between the Minister and the milk suppliers will be broken. The Minister has stated the milk supplier will get an increase and I am glad of that.

I must confess I was very disappointed and in fact amazed listening to the Minister's speech this afternoon and having subsequently read it carefully and studied it almost line by line because at a time when the country is faced with what can be described as a serious agricultural situation, if not a crisis, we find in a 25-page manuscript no indication of it except one or two vague references to reviews and reconsideration of agricultural policies in respect of the difficulties which have developed and which have been caused by the bad weather. There is nothing new in this, nothing which will lift agriculture from the doldrums into which it has sunk and nothing which will stimulate the farmers to greater production. There are very few new incentives, if any.

At the outset the Minister went to considerable pains to try to refute any suggestions that the Government had been indifferent to the interests of the farming community or that they had been prepared to let every other sector improve their positions and did nothing to help the farmer maintain his position. The point is that all the evidence leads one to believe otherwise, and the ordinary farmer down the country cannot be blamed if he feels he has been neglected.

The Minister is the man who in the final analysis is responsible for the agricultural industry. He must, in this House at any rate, accept responsibility for the position. It may well be that the Minister and his advisers may not realise fully the gravity of the situation. On the other hand, it may well be that the Minister is fully aware of the situation but that his hands are tied within the Cabinet and he is unable to do anything about it. There is no doubt whatever that he must be aware that the situation is bad. The present situation, particularly in the dairying areas, has not arisen merely because of the bad weather.

The Minister says here it is not necessary for farmers to engage in this kind of agitation to obtain their just demands. He advises them to sit down and engage in constructive discussion in a calm, rational manner. But for the past couple of years this type of discussion has gone on. I have here memoranda dating back to 1964: a memorandum of 3rd January, 1964 submitted to the Taoiseach and the Minister for Agriculture making a claim for an increase in the price of milk supplied to creameries; another memorandum of 18th February, 1965; and I understand that a subsequent discussion was held between the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association and the Minister early this year.

Therefore, constructive, calm, rational discussion has been going on not merely with the ICMSA but also with the National Farmers' Association and other organisations, and it seems to have achieved nothing. The fact that a section of the farming community have been compelled to take drastic action is clear proof that they have become desperate. The farmers who are picketing Leinster House tonight are doing so out of sheer desperation, because they have been trying to surmount difficulties which have now become impossible.

Speaking here on the Supplementary Estimate for the Department of Agriculture shortly before Easter, I went into detail regarding the many difficulties that had arisen in the dairying areas. I warned the Minister that the situation was grave and that the dairy farmers had threatened drastic action. I appealed to him to prevent this situation arising. I have no doubt whatsoever that if this situation had been handled before Easter and if the Minister had been advised of the gravity of the situation, the farmers who are picketing Leinster House for the past fortnight would never have done so and this situation would never have arisen. Whether the Minister likes it or not, he must accept responsibility in this matter and must be prepared to face up to this very serious situation.

How many people are asking why is it that a section of the farming community are compelled to come to Dublin and to break the law? It is necessary in the interests of truth and fair play all round that the people of this country should be made aware of the facts of the situation. The facts of the situation are known to the Department and I have the written evidence of it here in memoranda submitted in 1964, in 1965 and again in 1966 by the Irish Creamery Milk Suppliers Association. In the 1965 memorandum they say:

We submit for your consideration our case for the payment of an increase in the price of milk delivered to creameries in the year 1965.

The memorandum outlined the average price of milk per gallon paid to farmers in every year from 1953 to 1964, inclusive. We find that from 1953 to 1964 the average price of milk delivered at creameries increased from 1/6¾d to 1/9¾d, which is the present price, 2¾d a pint. This memorandum went on to point out that the increase in the price of milk since 1953 had been 3d per gallon or 16 per cent, and that during this period the cost of living index had increased by 40.3 points. That was in January, 1965, over a year ago. Production costs on the farm had soared and processing costs in the creameries had increased very considerably. The memorandum pointed out also that the dairy farmers were being forced to accept a much lower standard of living than they enjoyed in 1953 and that their status in comparison with the rest of the community had dropped considerably.

The Association then went on to advocate a two-tier price system for milk, to which the Minister referred in his speech here this evening. The mechanics and the operation of a two-tier price system may have certain difficulties—I have discussed it with many people—but it recognises a principle, a principle which seems to have been forgotten, that is, that some special consideration must be given to the problems of the small farmer. The two-tier price system gives practical expression to the belief that the small farmer is finding it difficult to survive and to our determination to keep the small farmer on the land.

The Minister has raised certain objections to the two-tier price system. I confess I have an open mind on it and I am prepared to support any provision made in this House which will help to keep the small farmer on the land of this country. One of the objections the Minister raised was that the average delivery per creamery milk supplier is under 7,000 gallons and that this would mean the total milk supplied would qualify for the maximum 4d per gallon, or whatever it would be.

The Minister also makes a suggestion which I resent. He suggests that this two-tier price system could lead to certain abuses and that dairy farmers would put half their milk in their wives' names or in their sons' names. I repudiate that suggestion and I challenge the Minister, when he is replying to this debate, to tell me whether or not he has any evidence from existing schemes operated by his Department which gives him grounds for the suggestion that dairy farmers are a pack of crooks and that they are prepared to abuse a scheme. I do not think so, and I doubt if any of my colleagues here from the dairying areas, no matter what side of the House they are on, would even attempt to suggest that.

As I said, I have an open mind on the two-tier price system, and I have spent hours discussing this question. Suggestions have been made that an answer to the problem might be that the two-tier price system could be operated not on a minimum gallonage but on a valuation basis, as it could be a more equitable approach to the problem. I am not too sure that even a valuation basis could be worked out in practice. However, the Minister has many experts at his command, and with the Department of Agriculture, the Agricultural Institute and the Faculty of Agriculture in University College, Dublin, it is a bad job if the combined brains of these three outfits cannot come up with a simple solution to the problem, a solution to the finding of which the average Deputy could not devote sufficient time.

Some attempt should be made to introduce a system, and I am speaking for the one type of farming, that is, dairying, which is practised in my constituency, to ensure as far as is humanly possible that every effort will be made to maintain the small farmer. As I said, the Minister is not unaware of this system. The calm, rational, reasoned discussion around the table has taken place between the Minister and the various organisations and it has achieved nothing. As a last desperate attempt, this unfortunate section of the community are compelled into action. The tragedy of it is that, instead of being at home trying to catch up on the work, they should be here parading. That is a dreadful state of affairs in this year of 1966.

I still have not answered the question as to why they are here—not fully at any rate. The situation is simply that the average price of milk delivered to creameries is totally uneconomic at the present time. The dairy farmer has been caught up in increasing costs of production which have had repercussions on the price he is getting for his milk. I do not think it is possible in any industry or business for a man to remain in business if his costs of production go up by 50 per cent and the increase in the price of his product is only 16 per cent. I do not care what efficiency is introduced, or what techniques of farm management are applied, that problem cannot be overcome. The Minister has again and again referred to ways and means, other than increasing the price of milk, of increasing the dairy farmer's income. There may be other ways and means but there is no way that matters other than an increase in the basic price, thereby putting the dairy farmer, as we say in the South, floating—that is, with his head above water. It will not make a millionaire of him but it will make it possible for him to continue.

Now, as well as having to try to continue in production despite increasing costs and with a static price for his product, the dairy farmer has had to contend with other enormous difficulties. The eradication of bovine tuberculosis has created certain problems. In many cases dairy farmers have had to incur considerable financial commitments in the replacement of animals in a herd which had reacted. The price paid for reactors was nothing like sufficient to enable the farmer to buy in replacements. It was quite common for a five or six year old dairy cow in peak production to react and to be replaced by a heifer. There was a consequential loss in milk. The total milk supply went down for a year or two. There is therefore yet another build-up in increasing costs due to the eradication of bovine tuberculosis. Unfortunately, and much more serious than any losses sustained through that, for the past couple of years in Limerick there has been a very high incidence of brucellosis or contagious abortion. That has caused havoc in many dairy herds.

There is then the unhappy situation that has arisen this year because of the bad weather in which cows normally put out on grass in early April have had to be maintained on feeding stuffs until quite recently. To my own knowledge, many dairy farmers have had to spend from £4 to £8 per day keeping their dairy cows alive during the month of April. I know, too, that there is not a creamery milk supplier at the moment who has not already obtained by way of credit from his local creamery manager 75 per cent of his total income from milk for this year. An inquiry at any creamery will prove that.

Another unfortunate situation that has arisen is the very considerable drop in calf prices. The one thing that might have saved the situation and kept the dairy farmers going would have been the maintenance of calf prices, but there has been on average a reduction of 50 per cent in the price of calves. There are many reasons for this; I shall go into them at a later stage. At the moment I am merely stating the facts.

We have then a situation in which the creamery milk suppliers—I am speaking now of creamery milk suppliers, not of liquid milk producers in the Dublin area—have to face a 50 per cent increase in production costs as compared with a 16 per cent increase in milk prices. Considerable financial losses have been incurred through the eradication of bovine tuberculosis, through the high incidence of brucellosis, fluke and other diseases, through the considerable drop in calf prices, through the extra financial commitments incurred in having to buy feeding stuffs from the local co-op or the local feed merchant to keep the animals alive during the bad weather from the end of March to early May.

Discussions and talks have taken place in the past few years between the farmers' organisations and the Minister. Is it any wonder then that this section of the community, which down the years has always been regarded, and can still be regarded, as decent, law-abiding citizens, should be compelled out of sheer desperation, in a last desperate effort to fight for their very survival, to come up here and picket outside the gates of Leinster House? That is the position now and the Minister cannot disclaim responsibility. He must face up to the situation. I am convinced that had there been even some small token in the recent Budget indicating to these farmers that the Government realised the situation, a great deal of the trouble that has arisen might have been avoided. I do not know how long more the situation will last or whether the dairy farmers will continue in production but I am certain of one thing: there is nothing in the Minister's speech to indicate that he and his Department realise that we have a serious situation demanding immediate action. There is very little time left for review. I understand that, prior to the Budget, a review of agriculture took place between the Department of Agriculture and one farmers' organisation.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 12th May, 1966.
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