asked the Minister for Local Government if he is aware that there is a grave shortage of money to meet loans and supplementary grants for new houses in every county at the present time; and what action he intends to take to provide money to meet the obligations of the various county councils.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Housing Loans and Grants.
13.
The implication in the question that there is a grave shortage of funds to meet commitments arising on foot of loans and supplementary grants already allocated by housing authorities——
Hear, hear.
I do not think that is anything to applaud.
I do not, but the truth is great and it shall prevail.
The implication in the question is unfounded. Issues from the Local Loans Fund for these purposes since 31st December last totalled approximately £2.43m. All demands on the fund up to 26th April have already been met in full. Further loan accommodation is being approved as required within the limits of the housing capital allocations for 1966-67 notified to the authorities last March.
While the portion of these capital allocations intended for house purchase loans and supplementary grants is more than was provided in any recent year, it has not been possible to allocate sufficient funds to meet the full demands for house-purchase loans engendered by the rapid expansion of house building in the private sector in recent years. In areas where the demand is high I am in co-operation with the housing authorities concerned keeping the position under special review. I have already recommended such authorities to adopt a liberal attitude in regard to the forward allocation of house-purchase loans and informed them that their allocation for 1967-68 may be assumed to be of the same general order as in 1966-67.
The allocations for supplementary grants are regarded by housing authorities generally as reasonable in the light of their commitments and anticipated demands. Particular problems which have arisen in a few areas are being examined.
Is the Minister not aware that there is extraordinary delay in the payment of supplementary grants and that in many cases those entitled to supplementary grants for house building or reconstruction or water and sewerage schemes are being sued by builders' providers for debts due? Is it not extraordinary that they are being sued by the builders' providers, while the local authority owes them money which they say they have not got to advance to these people?
What can the Minister do when he has not got the money?
What Deputies should understand, and indeed do understand if they would admit it, is that the allocations for the year are for the year and the demand made for them just now cannot possibly be expected to be met. If they want all the money there is for the remainder of the year now, the demand cannot be met.
It is money for last year they want.
Surely the Minister is aware that the money he has given in the vast majority of counties will not cover what was due for last year? In County Westmeath where we have got £92,000, we have legal and moral commitments of £171,000. That leaves us £78,000 short of meeting our present commitments. Surely the Minister knows that throughout the length and breadth of the country house-building is slowly grinding to a halt and that the dead hand of Fianna Fáil——
The same applied in 1956.
(Interruptions.)
Deputies may ask questions but not make speeches. Surely they should know that?
Mr. O'Leary
Would the Minister give favourable consideration to a Resolution passed by one county council calling for his resignation since he and his Department have made such a mess of housing?
I shall certainly consider it.
Why did the Minister refuse to answer a question put down by me last week?
What question?
(Interruptions.)
I put down this question last week and the Minister refused to answer it.
Is the Minister satisfied that supplementary grants will not be suspended because some housing authorities, particularly in County Cork, in the course of letters to applicants have informed them that the grants "if any" will be payable when funds are available? There is a doubt expressed in the letters to applicants, an implication that the grant may not be paid at all. Is there a likelihood of the supplementary grants being suspended owing to no money being available to meet them? The Minister will agree that every public authority is at present receiving letters on this particular question and particularly in Cork County Council.
This is a speech, not a question.
It is a question. The question is: is it likely that the grants will be suspended?
Difficulty seems to have arisen in County Dublin where the amount of money allocated is only sufficient to pay applicants up to 31st December last and all new applicants for the period between January and the present date have been notified that funds are not available for them. Will the Minister take steps to see that some allocation is made in order——
On the question of County Dublin, I already announced last week or the week before in regard to the figures given that at the time we were making the allocation, the figures we were given were figures which have had to be amended by the local authority and as a result, the situation is much more demanding of money now than when the money was originally allocated. I have undertaken already to look into this matter and I am now examining it.
Is it not obvious to the Minister now that nearly all, if not all, the local authorities are not in a position to pay the lawful debts incurred by them during the past year?
I shall try to get this across to the Deputies if they will kindly listen——
Yes, we are listening.
——and if they do not ask so many questions that I shall forget the first before the last is asked. The situation would seem to be this, that, for instance, in Cork letters are going out which, according to what the Deputy says, and I have no doubt it is true, are raising the question that the grants indicated in those letters may not be paid because the whole scheme may be suspended.
That implication is there.
I have no knowledge that this is so, nor have I any reason to believe it should be so, and the amount of money allocated under the heading of supplementary grants is of the order that should not lead to this picture or in any way give any indication of a curtailment or cessation of these grants during the current year. I wonder how this implication could have been read into those letters and since the matter has been raised by Deputy Murphy, I shall inquire about it.
A very substantial proportion of the building of the country takes place in county Dublin. I understand that about one-third of all the building is confined to County Dublin. The position is that a great many people are not aware whether they will get any loans this year and if so, when. They are anxious to be informed if it is likely that there will be less money this year and what alternative arrangement will be provided. I should like to impress on the Minister that some indication should be given as soon as possible as to what the prospects are.
Is the Minister further aware that people at present might be allowed to occupy the houses that are already built but that the county councils are refusing to give a specific date as they do not know where they stand themselves?
Where allocations have been made and with the figures of those allocations under the various heads, each council can reasonably take it that these moneys will be made available to them during the coming financial year just as in other years. If they want to play completely safe by doubting that the money will be provided, this is something the council must grapple with themselves. They cannot expect me to try to change their minds.
This money is all spent.
Is the Minister not aware that the officials of Dublin County Council have said that there is no money to meet these loans?
I am not giving way to the Deputy to enable him to ask more questions.
There is no money to meet these loans.
(Interruptions.)
I have a final supplementary question. Would the Minister find out why Wexford County Council are not in a position to pay supplementary grants that were approved in the last financial year?
The only thing I can do in the case of Wexford or any other council where this sort of picture emerges is to say to anyone who wants information that I shall give it to them if I can get it.
May I ask——
I am being asked so many questions that I shall forget those already asked. May I ask the Chair——
(Interruptions.)
What is the use of lambasting the Minister with so many questions?
Certainly the Deputy's contribution is not helping. Is it intended to?
Is it not true?
(Interruptions.)
Just a last short question——
The Deputy will resume his seat. It is obvious that I cannot allow all the supplementary questions Deputies desire to ask. All the questions would take up the entire session today. I am not making any comment on any position. I am simply stating the fact that every Deputy seems to want to ask a question, or three or four questions.
Hear, hear.
I do not know what Deputy Dillon is "hear-hearing" about. I am simply stating that every Deputy is asking questions about his constituency. I cannot allow supplementary questions to that extent. Therefore, I will allow only the Minister to conclude now.
Could I ask a question, just to be helpful to the Minister?
No. Let the Minister work for himself without help from Deputy Flanagan.
Can the Minister not solve the whole matter by saying he has no money? We know he has no money.
The Minister, concluding.
And worse, he cannot get it.
It is not questions that are being asked, but statements that are being made in the guise of questions which, because of their number, are going unanswered. This is what I am objecting to, not to answering questions but to statements being made positively as questions and then being passed along because there are so many being asked that one cannot remember them all. Deputies are asking why we do not say we have no money?
Deputies
Yes.
The reason I do not say that is that it would be untrue.
Where is it?
As a further aside to those Deputies over there who use terms that we cannot get money, I should like to ask them how do they know whether we can or not?
Why do you not get it?
You got it in Germany at ten per cent.
That is a slight exaggeration. In so far as commitments are concerned, because there is a shortage of capital to meet some of our projects at the moment, a number of councils seem to want to clear off all the debts some of them have been accumulating for the past ten to 15 years and want to pay them off. That is true.
Nonsense. They always paid their way until you refused them the money.
That is true and the Deputy should realise that.
Where is the money now?
The Deputy knows quite well where it is.
Squandered.
You are not answering that.
I am not. It is an inane question and the Deputy knows it.
They have not the price of a wheelbarrow.
Is the Minister aware that some local authorities owe money in respect of supplementary grants which were approved for payment in October, 1965? That is a national question.
In view of the unsatisfactory nature of the Minister's reply, I give notice that I wish to raise the subject matter of this question on the Adjournment.
What Question does the Deputy wish to raise?
No. 13.
I will communicate with the Deputy.